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Let's Define Difficult Shall We?Follow

#52 Oct 22 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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JamesX wrote:
Izuul wrote:
Define what you mean by "finshed WoW," because if you just mean they hit cap then i can't take you seriously. When you cap in WoW you are BEGINNING the game, not finishing. 1-80 in WoW these days is just a big tutorial to learn your class abilities.

Anyway, I've done plenty of both and progression raiding in WoW is definitely more challenging than merit partying in FFXI.

Matter of fact, i never really found any of the party leveling in FFXI to be very difficult. I still enjoyed it greatly (except for LFG), but it certainly wasn't hard. The biggest thing was wearing good gear and using the proper food. Beyond that the combat was rather slow-paced and there weren't many abilities to keep track of. Sure, a few jobs were more difficult, but, on a whole, FFXI party leveling was pretty simple.

I have no idea what they meant by finishing WoW. They came back to FF saying we did everything, it got borinng.

But when they tried to Merit with me in FFXI they simply as not very good. Ineffecient, can't manage mp, can't seems to get party dynamics.

Which is why I said FFXI is more difficult :) because they can't do even the simple thing of merit party well.


That just means your friends suck at video games. If they can't meripo they prolly can't handle minesweeper.
#53 Oct 22 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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RufuSwho wrote:
Don't be mad at the game, be mad at your kids.



Haha, you're like the fat chic that had kids but still uses her high school picture on Facebook. She looks at her old picture, looks in the mirror then looks at her kids and says "YOU DID THIS TO ME!"


Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 6:26pm by FilthMcNasty
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#54 Oct 22 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Default
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KristoFurwalken wrote:
That just means your friends suck at video games. If they can't meripo they prolly can't handle minesweeper.

They might not, but they handled WoW. You can bash them all you want, but I think you are the lesser being for using video games to judge someone.

In either way, whether you like it or not, they are happy with their performance in WoW. They believe they finished the game (whether they did or not I have no idea, I can ask them if they did Endgame raid when I see them online again).

But they are not happy with their performance in FFXI, and they know they suck at FFXI.

Please, take the rod out of your behind. Either that or learn some anger management lessons. Less you go postal over someone having a negative comparison of your beloved WoW - I am not sure your ego can take it.

[Edit]
Fixed Quote Tag.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 4:42pm by JamesX
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#55 Oct 22 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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JamesX wrote:
KristoFurwalken wrote:
That just means your friends suck at video games. If they can't meripo they prolly can't handle minesweeper.

They might not, but they handled WoW. You can bash them all you want, but I think you are the lesser being for using video games to judge someone.

In either way, whether you like it or not, they are happy with their performance in WoW. They believe they finished the game (whether they did or not I have no idea, I can ask them if they did Endgame raid when I see them online again).

But they are not happy with their performance in FFXI, and they know they suck at FFXI.

Please, take the rod out of your behind. Either that or learn some anger management lessons. Less you go postal over someone having a negative comparison of your beloved WoW - I am not sure your ego can take it.

[Edit]
Fixed Quote Tag.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 4:42pm by JamesX


lol, I could care less tbh I'm not angry at anything and I really don't care for WoW anymore.

It's more funny than anything to me, especially when you keep saying that they "finished" the game. Thats like saying someone finished the internet.

But you said something along the lines of, "anyone with half a brain can play WoW". And you have 0 experience with it.

Maybe you can do some more reading and see where I said I like FFXI better than WoW. But it's not harder. I have played both at endgame. My Original HNMLS, VV on Garuda was the first NA ls to kill Kirin. VV, along with Stelvia and Coloration were the top 3 linkshells on the server for the first 5 years of the game,(I quit after so I dunno what happened). My last WoW guild was the top guild on my Server untill I quit. The point is I have played both games at their highest level, and FFXI is no more difficult.

I never judged any of your precious online "friends" as people, but if someone can't do a merit pt in FFXI they arent good at playing video games. Thats just an observation. So if they say they "finished WoW" I am guessing they leveled their chars to whatever the max was at the time and considered the game beat.




Btw these "friends" leave WoW and just move over to a meripo in FFXI? Did they buy ebay characters or something?

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 8:20pm by KristoFurwalken

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 8:26pm by KristoFurwalken

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 9:29pm by KristoFurwalken
#56 Oct 22 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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JamesX wrote:
KristoFurwalken wrote:
That just means your friends suck at video games. If they can't meripo they prolly can't handle minesweeper.

They might not, but they handled WoW. You can bash them all you want, but I think you are the lesser being for using video games to judge someone.

In either way, whether you like it or not, they are happy with their performance in WoW. They believe they finished the game (whether they did or not I have no idea, I can ask them if they did Endgame raid when I see them online again).

But they are not happy with their performance in FFXI, and they know they suck at FFXI.

Please, take the rod out of your behind. Either that or learn some anger management lessons. Less you go postal over someone having a negative comparison of your beloved WoW - I am not sure your ego can take it.

[Edit]
Fixed Quote Tag.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 4:42pm by JamesX


I don't know James, you seem to be the one thats angry here.

Please, take the rod out of your behind. Either that or learn some anger management lessons. Less you go postal over someone having a negative comparison of your beloved FFXIV - I am not sure your ego can take it.

see what I did there?

you can bash wow all you want, but its not as easy as they claim, if they completed heroic ICC 10 or 25, then I can understand.
but saying its hard to meripo, you have to be bad lol, if you haven't grasped party dynamics by the time you hit 75 (I left before abssea) then someone needs to have a talk and coaching session with you on meripo 101. healers are the only job that are a bit stressed in meripo's in my opinion.
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#57 Oct 22 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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RufuSwho wrote:
I understand what you mean OP. I have 4 kids myself and progressing in FFXI is no longer a viable option.

Endgame play is designed for people with alot of time, to keep them playing and paying.

I'm afraid you are confusing your newfound responsibilties and lack of playtime with some kind of design flaw. I share the same frustration at the world for not being able to play games as much as I would like.

Don't be mad at the game, be mad at your kids.



That last line made me lol :)

Even if I didn't have kids, job, school, life, business, ect ect.. then I would still not want to sit in front of a screen nonstop for 6+ hours straight in order to be a viable asset. Again, my attempt at the thread was not to compare wow to FFXIV at all, but simply ask why is difficulty in today's MMOs measured in time spent playing instead of the mechanics of the game itself?
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#58 Oct 22 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
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I agree, people bash wow all the time, but 90 percent of them never experienced going through really hard 10/25 man instances where strategy and gear was either a full wipe and all dead, or a success. And even then there were some dead most of the time. So I define difficult by how hard a boss encounter is and how much movement and how many people that would usually just be DPSing or healing have to move or perform some other role throughout the fight. Moving out of the way of a goblin grenade AOE is one thing, but having to think and adapt to complex situations is something that sets it apart. I have seen some glimpses of some things in FFXIV, but so far it is just moving out of AOE so that I can heal. There is no real strategy involved. Hopefully it will be complex later on. FFXIV is not difficult, it is just tedious.
#59 Oct 22 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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IMO Let say :

1)if your level is cap,your stat is cap,you have the best gear,and you have the best skills,killing the final boss is like walking thru the park ...now that game is easy.
and a disappointment..

2)if your level is cap,your stat is cap,you have the best gear,and you have the best skills,killing the final boss still makes your heart race even though you have the needed strategy and have done it so many time ...now this game is a challenge

3)if your level is cap,your stat is cap,you have the best gear,and you have the best skills,killing the final boss needs a whole lot of allies who are same like you and still making people standing on their toes even though they had done it so many time...this game is difficult..

i cant say much for WoW (i not a avid player of it) but i do can say this game is the most balance MMO out there,and the dev are one of the best.

for FF11 (which i am a avid player) this game is **** hard...not because it takes time and patience.. but because killing kirin takes a whole lot of end game players to do so and they still stand to lose the fight just because of a few wrong move...

as for 14...there no difficulty yet... there no end game...there no goal...right now all you do is trying to hit cap level...there no difficulty in doing that..so right now we cant really say much about it difficulty... not at this stage...and dont get me wrong.. i love this game but yet i understand that this game is far from complete.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 11:31pm by keithkerin
#60Dartagon, Posted: Oct 22 2010 at 9:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Here lets all agree that video games dont require ANY skill at all, whatever game you are playing, there is no skill involved. Its a random clicking of buttons with a great deal of determination and time availability that makes you good at video games.
#61 Oct 22 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Good
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keithkerin wrote:
IMO Let say :

1)if your level is cap,your stat is cap,you have the best gear,and you have the best skills,killing the final boss is like walking thru the park ...now that game is easy.
and a disappointment..

2)if your level is cap,your stat is cap,you have the best gear,and you have the best skills,killing the final boss still makes your heart race even though you have the needed strategy and have done it so many time ...now this game is a challenge

3)if your level is cap,your stat is cap,you have the best gear,and you have the best skills,killing the final boss needs a whole lot of allies who are same like you and still making people standing on their toes even though they had done it so many time...this game is difficult..

i cant say much for WoW (i not a avid player of it) but i do can say this game is the most balance MMO out there,and the dev are one of the best.

for FF11 (which i am a avid player) this game is **** hard...not because it takes time and patience.. but because killing ifrit takes a whole lot of end game players to do so and they still stand to lose the fight just because of a few wrong move...

as for 14...there no difficulty yet... there no end game...there no goal...right now all you do is trying to hit cap level...there no difficulty in doing that..so right now we cant really say much about it difficulty... not at this stage...and dont get me wrong.. i love this game but yet i understand that this game is far from complete.


wait, killing ifrit take a whole lot of endgame players? did they add a new ifrit or something with the expansion, because I've duo'd ifrit prime with a melee WHM and a RDM on seperate occasions.
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#62 Oct 22 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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ohh sorry .. my bad .. it was kirin
#63 Oct 22 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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keithkerin wrote:
ohh sorry .. my bad .. it was kirin


lol I just assumed they added a new fight after I quit playing or something.
#64 Oct 22 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess difficult is a linear term. When you start something it's difficult, but becomes easier with practice and comprehension. Hard bosses become easier after you learn how to defeat them. Ifrit for example was a royal pain when first released but now he is duo'ed. I guess how difficult a game depends on how steep the learning curve is.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 11:48pm by dyvidd
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#65 Oct 23 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think you can bring World of Warcraft into any discussion of comparison on any issue, as far as FFXIV is concerned. One has content. The other has like 9 cutscenes.

Until FFXIV adds more content, you can't really judge its difficulty(because as it stands, it is a simple act of repetitive clicking, thoughtless clicking, albeit clicking while looking at pretty stuff).

Since FFXIV doesn't have a single boss battle requiring planning or strategy, you really can't compare Dodos to Dungeons.
#66 Oct 23 2010 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
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kenshynOnShiva wrote:


Today FFXI seems to have embraced the same concept by accident or design I think by accidental byproduct they made getting from 30-85 a joke people can do it in 2 days in abyssea worm parties.


But your skills will be horribly gimped and there is no shortcut for leveling that.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#67 Oct 23 2010 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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To anyone in this thread who has said "wow is easy"...

I would like to see your dated hardmode achievements and arena titles.

Seriously... it gets old hearing people say crap like that but never actually playing any of the challenging content.

Sure, blowing through naxx with the current level gear makes the instance wicked easy... but should i then say that ffxiv is easy because at level 10 i can do level 1 guildleve's on legion difficulty alone?
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#68 Oct 23 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Default
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Again my intent was not to "bash" either WoW or FFXIV but to ask the question: Why does the amount of time in an MMO determine its' "difficulty" as the amount of time you have to play should have nothing to do with difficulty.

WoW is the same way, to be the best you must have the best gear, to get the best gear you really need time more than anything else. Sure you need to know how to play your class, but the difficuly is really defined as the amount of time you have to invest and not the gameplay mechanics itself.

That was my point, didn't mean to start a flame war :)
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#69 Oct 23 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Curth79 wrote:
Again my intent was not to "bash" either WoW or FFXIV but to ask the question: Why does the amount of time in an MMO determine its' "difficulty" as the amount of time you have to play should have nothing to do with difficulty.

WoW is the same way, to be the best you must have the best gear, to get the best gear you really need time more than anything else. Sure you need to know how to play your class, but the difficuly is really defined as the amount of time you have to invest and not the gameplay mechanics itself.

That was my point, didn't mean to start a flame war :)


Okay let's get one thing straight - saying something that is generally incorrect and saying "it's my opinion" doesn't change the fact that it is (sorry to be redundant) generally incorrect.

If you want to casually raid in WoW and get carried through raids by people who are playing better than you, you can. You can do the same in FFXI or FFXIV, I'm sure. However, if you want to achieve the HARD MODES in WoW, you need to know your class inside and out, you need to know the encounters inside and out, and both the class dymanics and the encounters are a LOT more involved than FFXI (although I can't speak for FFXIV's end-game).

Let me ask you - have you been in 2200+ arenas? Completed Hard-mode raids? Link us your armory profile ...

Like I said before, I'm guessing you played the easy and casual side of WoW. There is a lot of that in the game - which is one of the reasons the game is so successful, and also one of the reasons that people think WoW is easy.
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#70 Oct 23 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Again my intent was not to "bash" either WoW or FFXIV but to ask the question: Why does the amount of time in an MMO determine its' "difficulty" as the amount of time you have to play should have nothing to do with difficulty.

WoW is the same way, to be the best you must have the best gear, to get the best gear you really need time more than anything else. Sure you need to know how to play your class, but the difficuly is really defined as the amount of time you have to invest and not the gameplay mechanics itself.

That was my point, didn't mean to start a flame war :)


You are just re-wording the original "wow is easy" statement there. You stated exactly what i said in my post about overgearing easy-mode instances by stating gearing takes precidence over gameplay mechanics.

To which i will simply say - you have not done any of the hard-modes, any of the top tier arenas or any of the more complex achievements. None of the current "leading edge content" is zergable, none of the hard-modes are zergable either, to a degree of obsolecence. Gear is a requirement of those, but not a garantee of sucess, even in the normal mode leading edge content.

Seriously, it's getting old.
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#71 Oct 23 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
I read most of this thread, now the only reminder I have of the original topic is the "subject" I see above the window I'm writing in now.

I'm guilty of passing WoW off as 'too easy'. I played some of the end game (ICC, ToGC), and actually found it quite challenging. Maybe I was running with a bad group, I don't know, but I wouldn't even want to attempt ICC on heroic with them. My point is, I quit WoW on grounds that it was too easy because I got to the cap too quickly for my taste. I played FFXI for 6 years and leveled 5 jobs to 75. (I quit before they introduced the level cap increase.)

Reading this thread got me thinking, I agree with a lot of points made here. Time consuming =/= difficult. FFXIV, though I love it even in it's current state, is pretty much a mess still. WoW, though frequently bashed by, FF fanboys, haters, immature bla bla [insert internet gaming forum quirky edgy colloquialism here], is a long standing, very popular game which (now that I think about it) caters quite well to casual and hardcore gamers. The previous sentence was probably a run-on. To make a quick comparison there really is nothing difficult about progressing in FFXIV (and that's all there is to do now), or WoW.

I've learned something today. I think I'm addicted to the mind-numbing tedium that is leveling any class in FFXIV. Is there a support group for this? Please... Help me!

Anyway, to the OP:

Difficult–adjective
1.not easily or readily done; requiring much labor, skill, or planning to be performed successfully; hard: a difficult job.
2.hard to understand or solve: a difficult problem.
3.hard to deal with or get on with: a difficult pupil.
4.hard to please or satisfy: a difficult employer.
5.hard to persuade or induce; stubborn: a difficult old man.
6.disadvantageous; trying; hampering: The operation was performed under the most difficult conditions.


Let me bring your attention to #6. By that definition, FFXIV is incredibly difficult!
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#72 Oct 23 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok. In order to get the original topic back on track (the post was never meant to bash either wow or ffxiv), I will state: WoW is hard when dealing with some of the hardcore instances/heroics/arenas.. ect ect...

The level progression is a walk in the park, no I will not post my "armory" as I will immediately be flamed to **** and back, I quit playing my Shaman very very soon after the last expansion so my armory link will be complete crap today. It's pointless anyway, as the original topic was to discuss:

Why is difficulty MAINLY focused around the amount of time spent in game (running heroics over and over and over to get gear, for example) instead of focusing on more content that requires 2-3 hour sessions with a high degree of difficulty (hard enough that a really great group, gear and skill wise, averages success 25% of the time)?

That was the entire point from the get-go. Some of you are so sensative that I may have said a game was easy when it has very hard content. I get it.
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#73 Oct 23 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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mattkujata wrote:
I read most of this thread, now the only reminder I have of the original topic is the "subject" I see above the window I'm writing in now.

I'm guilty of passing WoW off as 'too easy'. I played some of the end game (ICC, ToGC), and actually found it quite challenging. Maybe I was running with a bad group, I don't know, but I wouldn't even want to attempt ICC on heroic with them. My point is, I quit WoW on grounds that it was too easy because I got to the cap too quickly for my taste. I played FFXI for 6 years and leveled 5 jobs to 75. (I quit before they introduced the level cap increase.)

Reading this thread got me thinking, I agree with a lot of points made here. Time consuming =/= difficult. FFXIV, though I love it even in it's current state, is pretty much a mess still. WoW, though frequently bashed by, FF fanboys, haters, immature bla bla [insert internet gaming forum quirky edgy colloquialism here], is a long standing, very popular game which (now that I think about it) caters quite well to casual and hardcore gamers. The previous sentence was probably a run-on. To make a quick comparison there really is nothing difficult about progressing in FFXIV (and that's all there is to do now), or WoW.

I've learned something today. I think I'm addicted to the mind-numbing tedium that is leveling any class in FFXIV. Is there a support group for this? Please... Help me!

Anyway, to the OP:

Difficult–adjective
1.not easily or readily done; requiring much labor, skill, or planning to be performed successfully; hard: a difficult job.
2.hard to understand or solve: a difficult problem.
3.hard to deal with or get on with: a difficult pupil.
4.hard to please or satisfy: a difficult employer.
5.hard to persuade or induce; stubborn: a difficult old man.
6.disadvantageous; trying; hampering: The operation was performed under the most difficult conditions.


Let me bring your attention to #6. By that definition, FFXIV is incredibly difficult!



Good post, great definitions.

My hope is that developers can create content that is very difficult to complete, even has a small chance of success, that doesn't require a 4-5+ session to achieve.
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#74 Oct 23 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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To me the important distinction has always been skill or patience. Is something difficult because it requires a lot of skill, or because it requires a lot of time/patience? If it's the latter, then the fact that it's difficult doesn't mean much. Working in a factory is difficult-- it's tedious and boring, and the vast majority of factory workers don't last anywhere near an entire year. Conversely, winning a chess tournament is difficult because it requires exceptional skill and intelligence.

So... there's nothing inherently good about a game being difficult, but that said: WoW, FFXI, and FFXIV are not especially difficult games beyond demanding the requisite time and patience to progress to a point where you are strong enough to defeat the enemy. They all require very little skill, at least for anyone with a moderate level of experience in the genre.

Don't get me wrong, there are parts of these games that involve skill, but 99% of the time you operate at a very low level of difficulty.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2010 11:37pm by Kachi
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#75 Oct 23 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Curth79 wrote:
Ok. In order to get the original topic back on track (the post was never meant to bash either wow or ffxiv), I will state: WoW is hard when dealing with some of the hardcore instances/heroics/arenas.. ect ect...

The level progression is a walk in the park, no I will not post my "armory" as I will immediately be flamed to **** and back, I quit playing my Shaman very very soon after the last expansion so my armory link will be complete crap today.


With the addition of abyssea it is now far easier to level up in FFXI. As a matter of fact it is common to see people go from level 30 to the cap overnight. Two days. 48 hours. This is not 48 hours of straight grind either. If you really wanted to get there and had a group who was willing to hold together you could do it in a day. Saying that you think the gameplay of WoW is easy and then saying you have no experience in the same post is bound to draw attention. You really can't blame people for being 'sensitive'. Drawing conclusions or passing judgment on something you don't know about will probably get you that kind of attention.

Quote:
Why is difficulty MAINLY focused around the amount of time spent in game (running heroics over and over and over to get gear, for example) instead of focusing on more content that requires 2-3 hour sessions with a high degree of difficulty (hard enough that a really great group, gear and skill wise, averages success 25% of the time)?

People don't want to have to commit that much time. It is only difficult in the fact that many people have wives or husbands, kids... real life **** to attend to. They want to have fun and be challenged, but they don't want to feel like they need to reschedule their life around it.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#76BriktheImmortal, Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 10:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) seriously , i have played wow ... end game content from BC to WotLK, and ya wow is made for people with reading disabilities. Half dead, one handed, mentally disabled crack heads with Parkinson can beat end game in WoW.
#77 Oct 24 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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BriktheImmortal wrote:
Nutchoss wrote:
OP is just dead wrong.

Just to clarify: I dislike WoW for many reason (just not my type), however it is NOT easier EASIER than FFXIV.





seriously , i have played wow ... end game content from BC to WotLK, and ya wow is made for people with reading disabilities. Half dead, one handed, mentally disabled crack heads with Parkinson can beat end game in WoW.


never got past WC did you?
#79 Oct 24 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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How many people here have killed Heroic Lich King in WoW pre 30% buff? How many have killed him at all on heroic? How many have cleared sunwell pre nerf? How many cleared AQ40? Black Temple? Pre nerf Tempest Keep? Pre nerf Gruul?

I've played both FFXI and WoW endgame for 3 years + each. I was in a top 20 US guild in vanilla wow, and top 100 US guild in BC. Top tier WoW is harder than FFXI. Less than 2% of WoW actually does top tier stuff. General wow vs general FFXI... FFXI is harder. Not by a lot though. My shells first time in sky was all kills. One shot every boss including Kirin. This was back in 04-05. Cleared Dynamis a few times also. Also cleared the most of the new HNM introduced in chains expac fairly easy. It was just time consuming and competitive. A lot of people are confusing time consuming with difficult. Just because most 11 players (myself included) camped mobs on 12 + hour swings doesn't mean the game was harder. If the best things in WoW were from camped bosses like FFXI no one would argue which game was harder.
#80 Oct 24 2010 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Curth79 wrote:
Ok. In order to get the original topic back on track (the post was never meant to bash either wow or ffxiv), I will state: WoW is hard when dealing with some of the hardcore instances/heroics/arenas.. ect ect...

The level progression is a walk in the park, no I will not post my "armory" as I will immediately be flamed to **** and back, I quit playing my Shaman very very soon after the last expansion so my armory link will be complete crap today. It's pointless anyway, as the original topic was to discuss:

Why is difficulty MAINLY focused around the amount of time spent in game (running heroics over and over and over to get gear, for example) instead of focusing on more content that requires 2-3 hour sessions with a high degree of difficulty (hard enough that a really great group, gear and skill wise, averages success 25% of the time)?

That was the entire point from the get-go. Some of you are so sensative that I may have said a game was easy when it has very hard content. I get it.


I don't know about that 25% sucess there, my endgame ls was more like 95% sucess on endgame content.

12 man kirin, beating dynamis windurst with 20 people, killing everything in sky with low numbers. the same goes for sea as well, except for AV because we all know thats a farce anyway. omega was a chump, ultima was a bit harder because of some cheap random moves.

to me, FFXI was just as easy as non heroic wow endgame. I do miss the level grind in FFXI though, I hate questing with passion.
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#81 Oct 24 2010 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Ultimately though, a lot of your success still depends not on your skill, but your configuration, which is mostly a matter of time. You can make things easier by using the right kind of equipment and abilities, but getting these are less a matter of skill than taking the time to research and get them. "Best" case scenario, it was a matter of researching a strategy.

There's very little on-your-feet thinking, manual dexterity, or even strategic planning required in most MMOs. At least not in proportion to the amount of time you have to acquire them.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#82 Oct 25 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Curth79 wrote:
Ok. In order to get the original topic back on track (the post was never meant to bash either wow or ffxiv), I will state: WoW is hard when dealing with some of the hardcore instances/heroics/arenas.. ect ect...

The level progression is a walk in the park, no I will not post my "armory" as I will immediately be flamed to **** and back, I quit playing my Shaman very very soon after the last expansion so my armory link will be complete crap today.


With the addition of abyssea it is now far easier to level up in FFXI. As a matter of fact it is common to see people go from level 30 to the cap overnight. Two days. 48 hours. This is not 48 hours of straight grind either. If you really wanted to get there and had a group who was willing to hold together you could do it in a day. Saying that you think the gameplay of WoW is easy and then saying you have no experience in the same post is bound to draw attention. You really can't blame people for being 'sensitive'. Drawing conclusions or passing judgment on something you don't know about will probably get you that kind of attention.

Quote:
Why is difficulty MAINLY focused around the amount of time spent in game (running heroics over and over and over to get gear, for example) instead of focusing on more content that requires 2-3 hour sessions with a high degree of difficulty (hard enough that a really great group, gear and skill wise, averages success 25% of the time)?

People don't want to have to commit that much time. It is only difficult in the fact that many people have wives or husbands, kids... real life sh*t to attend to. They want to have fun and be challenged, but they don't want to feel like they need to reschedule their life around it.


This is where I'm confused, I don't recall ever stating that I had no WoW experience. If memory serves me right my main was somewhere around 400+ hours of playtime, and while I Know that is not much now at all, at the time it was fairly decent.

Again, as a previous poster stated, none of these games are really that hard it's mostly time and patience to acquire the gear/stats to make that really hard boss/instance much more doable.

But the original question still stands, why not create a difficult game that doesn't require hours on end a day to experience?
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#83 Oct 25 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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KristoFurwalken wrote:
It's more funny than anything to me, especially when you keep saying that they "finished" the game. Thats like saying someone finished the internet.
I did not say they finished the game. I said they said the finished the game. Which means usually means that they did all they care to do in the game.

KristoFurwalken wrote:
But you said something along the lines of, "anyone with half a brain can play WoW". And you have 0 experience with it.
Which is why I expressly said I had no experience with it. But if they can believe they "finished" the game, and they would never make such claim on FFXI, it is a deduction. I may even be wrong, which is why I always expressly said my reasons.

KristoFurwalken wrote:
Maybe you can do some more reading and see where I said I like FFXI better than WoW.
Not sure when did I ever say WoW is worse than FFXI, or FFXI is better. My answer to the OP's question is that you guys are overthinking what difficult means. Of everyone can do it then its easy, if no one can do it, then its impossible. Thus I said WoW is easier because more people I know have "finished" it than FFXI.

Finish is a bad definition, maybe I should say - done all they care to do with it.

I never played WoW, but some of you have mentioned osmething about Heroic? and asked if people did Heroic since that means WoW is harder. So I assume Heroic is an optional thing? Well if FFXI added achievement for killing shadowlord nakked with a rusty dagger - would that mean FFXI is harder? You cannot compare a special mode made for challenge as regular game play. That is a flawed logic.

So I guess if SE added a level cap mechanism for Dynamis that caps you at level 10 that would make "FFXI OMGZ HARDEST GAME EVER!!!?" It wouldn't. It just means FFXI added a fuction to make the game more difficult for those who want additional difficulty. It doesn't make the game inherently more difficult.

Of course I might just be wrong and Heroic is the default difficulty, then I apologize for making a wrong deduction/assumption.

KristoFurwalken wrote:
I never judged any of your precious online "friends" as people, but if someone can't do a merit pt in FFXI they arent good at playing video games. Thats just an observation. So if they say they "finished WoW" I am guessing they leveled their chars to whatever the max was at the time and considered the game beat.
Probably that is what they did. I had zero interest in WoW, or EndGame for that matter, so I didn't bother asking them what is Endgame like.

I apologize for getting defensive and assumed you were insulting my friend's. They are ok FFXI players, just they are not upto par to my standards for MeriPo (which is what I said originally as well). Their understanding of hate control and such is lacking.

KristoFurwalken wrote:
Btw these "friends" leave WoW and just move over to a meripo in FFXI? Did they buy ebay characters or something?
Nah, they left FFXI to do WoW when it came out. Came back after about 6 month to a year. So that is before all the WoW Expansions (IIRC).

Lafaiel wrote:
You can bash wow all you want, but its not as easy as they claim, if they completed heroic ICC 10 or 25, then I can understand. but saying its hard to meripo, you have to be bad lol, if you haven't grasped party dynamics by the time you hit 75 (I left before abssea) then someone needs to have a talk and coaching session with you on meripo 101. healers are the only job that are a bit stressed in meripo's in my opinion.
Which is the basis of why I think WoW is easier. Meripo is probably some of the easiest thing to do in FFXI. But my friends did not meet the expectation I have for it. I said in other replies that
JamesX wrote:
Considering anyone with half a brain can do WoW, and not everyone can do FFXI, FFXI is harder. I have friends who finished WoW (or so they say) but cannot do merit party (meeting my approval) in FFXI if their life depended on it.

JamesX wrote:
But when they tried to Merit with me in FFXI they simply as not very good. Ineffecient, can't manage mp, can't seems to get party dynamics.

They are very rigid in their tactics. They seems to lack the ability to adapt to changing situations. They seems lack understanding of aggro control and party dynamics. Things like healing themselves when they would have been fine instead of waiting for the 2ndary tank to provoke the link/2nd pull off them, etc. Which is why I believe they are not very good at FFXI.

The rest of the logic is explained above in the reply to KristoFurwalken

[Edit]
Curse you quote tags!!!

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 10:34am by JamesX
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#84EzellLangor, Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 12:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) What HNMs are those? You surely must be talking about Tia, cause I know @ CoP release this was still a VERY hard fight full of wipes and body throwing. **** ******* ask any FFXI player if Airship pre-nerf was the definition of ******* INSANE!!!! What about pre-nerf Snoll? The fact you leave these out makes me think you didn't even finish CoP because it was too hard....what about Sea NMs? Every tri duo'n or Trio'n a UFO back in 05-06? Or what about JoP, or JoF, you sir have no idea wtf you are talking about. Now i will agree that kings were easier...but that is also after years of fighting and people getting a general strat down after them being around for a few years. However, a mistake on a KB or fafhogg would result in a complete wipe and depending on the spectators a whole zone dropping dead. I don't think you understand ffxi and the complexity involved in fighting endgame mobs.
#85 Oct 25 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I loled.. FFXIV there is simply not enough useful skills to actually make interesting builds.. Once you know when to heal and certain pattern of attack chains you are good to go... I fail to see how that is difficult... The quest is a joke given that you actually have a freakin party.. or just choose the easiest difficulty and move on with your life on solo.. FFXIV is a grindfest.. and grindfest does not equal difficult..
World of Warcraft was actually pretty dam easy, as the entire game is entirely reliant on gear.. once you have ballin gear you can do w.e. the game throws at you.. apparently gearing up is pretty easy since WOTLK.. I wouldn't know I quit 2 months before WOTLK came out..

The only mmo's where I find that was remotely challenging was the following:

Atlantica Online: Holy monkey balls this game was hard, it's like final fantasy (classic literal turn based).. You control 9 characters and you battle it out.. it's an mmo combined with class turned based system.. pretty much pokemon on steroids.. I really enjoyed this game.. up until they start heavily investing in the dam cash shops and completely broke pvp..

Guild Wars: VAST amount of skills.. you have access to hundreds.. because you can change secondary class to any available class in the game.. Since you are allowed to choose 8 skills in battle you have to choose carefully.. I can't even begin to list how many combo's of skills you can have... and how many strategies people can come up with.. A lot of the instances was hard as ****, because the monsters were actually smart.. they heal each other.. and they do snare if you run away.. now that is a difficult game.. THE AI's Were SMART :O ... They debuff like mad..

Lord of the Rings Online: PVP in this game was balls.. cake walk because of ganking, but PVE was astoundingly hard just because the monsters out number the players en masses.. and party required quests literally meant party required quests... You know a game's PVE is hard when you have to stealth around enemy camps just to get quests done.. The ai here is much more stupid compared to Guild Wars as it was not randomized.. The mob's do have skills they use based on hp level and certain scripted situations.. the entire Ai was scripted so pretty much only respond to player actions... Nonetheless the PVe aspects of this game was hard..

The following games does not qualify to be difficult due to i.e. meta builds, gear dependent, skill builds.. (this is from experience)

Final Fantasy XIV, Silkroad online, cabal online, Aion online, diablo 2, World of Warcraft, Runescape 2, 9 dragons online.. and pretty much most of the free mmo's out there..




Edited, Oct 26th 2010 1:42am by nick2412
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WoW: we want to give players a more fun time with less grinding and generic quests
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#86 Oct 25 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Default
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KristoFurwalken wrote:


lol, I could care less tbh I'm not angry at anything and I really don't care for WoW anymore.


The bolded part makes no sense.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#87 Oct 26 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mithsavvy wrote:
When people say that WoW was easy, I think they mean that there really just isn't much content that you can turn into a challenge even if you wanted to. There was no equivalent to soloing Hellmines on SMN or soloing Aquarius/Despot/etc on BST or all the ridiculous things you could do on RDM if you had skillz. There were no missions that took countless practices and attempts to complete because you had to exectute a flawless strategy with a group of 6 or 12 or even 18 players at once. Generally, in the easy games you either did it solo, or bum-rushed things with a lot of people mashing buttons.


What? Have you ever even played WoW? And if you did you didn't get anywhere near endgame raid content?

Try 40 or 25 instead of 6 or 12 or 18.

And you want to talk about Coordination? Look up strategies for any of the 40 man Naxx bosses.

Or Ice Crown Citadel or Black Wing Lair, AQ40, Sunwell, Black Temple, Ulduar, etc etc

these all require many people to be informed and act as sigle group while performing specific duties.

The difference is that through he magic of the internet people are able to disseminate successful plans of action through the so literally anyone can learn just what is expected of them for a given encounter.

That doesn't make it easy though.

In my days (which are now past) of being hardcore active in wow endgame content I was one of only a few thousand (2 or 3 thousand if I'm correct) out of millions who played at the time to ever beat a boss in the original Naxxramas. Why is this you ask? The strategies are available to everyone? Yes they are but it was still hard, even if you knew what you were supposed to was, doing it is another story, it took many people weeks to beat the first bosses in that place, while some tried for weeks but never succeeded.

Blizzard tends to make things that are no longer the top tier of advancement easier as they go along so that everyone gets to enjoy the content. This habit makes some believe that it was easy but in reality they are playing content that is past its prime and already thoroughly understood by the average player. If you are being taken along for a ride by 20 or so other players that could do an encounter in their sleep it really does not matter what you do you will probably win, because, unbeknownst to you the other players are enacting a delicately timed strategy.



Edited, Oct 26th 2010 4:29am by Thegorgatron
#88 Oct 26 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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nick2412 wrote:
\World of Warcraft was actually pretty dam easy, as the entire game is entirely reliant on gear.. once you have ballin gear you can do w.e. the game throws at you.. apparently gearing up is pretty easy since WOTLK.. I wouldn't know I quit 2 months before WOTLK came out..
Edited, Oct 26th 2010 1:42am by nick2412


Did you evon play WoW? There are people who still can't do Sunwell in full IC gear and Sunwell is a lvl 70 raid. WoW raids take a lot more than just gear. Ever try Figher fighter? What about no lights in the darkness? How many times did you kill Algalon the Observer? Tell me that any of them are gear reliant and not skill.

You see this is the problem. People spot off at the mouth without knowing first hand what it is they are talking about. It seems that everyone wants to copy and paste the same attack's about WoW and act like they know. "WoW is easy all it takes is gear" "WoW is too easy you can hit lvl cap in a week!" yet none of the people saying this stuff can name one raid where this is true. They forget that WoW is not about lvling and never has been. It has always been about the end-game. They never talk about hard modes and only point out that anyone can see the boss fights.

And it seems that none of them played WoW befor WOTLK. None of them talk about 40 man Onyxia. She was probly one of the bichtiest boss fights of all tiem. One night your raid mite kill here with no deaths. The next time you go it seems she is ragging and you could not kill her to save you life. What about AQ40? Only a handfull of people still to this day have ever taken on C'Thun. Everyone who calls WoW easy loves to talk about Nax as such an easy raid but they all forget that it was the last Clasic raid and that veary veary few people ever got to see the end of the 40 man Nax raid.

And we never hear them talk about PVP. I would love to have you all tell some of the top PVP players that WoW is easy mode.
#89 Oct 26 2010 at 7:41 AM Rating: Default
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Sethern79 wrote:
nick2412 wrote:
\World of Warcraft was actually pretty dam easy, as the entire game is entirely reliant on gear.. once you have ballin gear you can do w.e. the game throws at you.. apparently gearing up is pretty easy since WOTLK.. I wouldn't know I quit 2 months before WOTLK came out..
Edited, Oct 26th 2010 1:42am by nick2412


Did you evon play WoW? There are people who still can't do Sunwell in full IC gear and Sunwell is a lvl 70 raid. WoW raids take a lot more than just gear. Ever try Figher fighter? What about no lights in the darkness? How many times did you kill Algalon the Observer? Tell me that any of them are gear reliant and not skill.

You see this is the problem. People spot off at the mouth without knowing first hand what it is they are talking about. It seems that everyone wants to copy and paste the same attack's about WoW and act like they know. "WoW is easy all it takes is gear" "WoW is too easy you can hit lvl cap in a week!" yet none of the people saying this stuff can name one raid where this is true. They forget that WoW is not about lvling and never has been. It has always been about the end-game. They never talk about hard modes and only point out that anyone can see the boss fights.

And it seems that none of them played WoW befor WOTLK. None of them talk about 40 man Onyxia. She was probly one of the bichtiest boss fights of all tiem. One night your raid mite kill here with no deaths. The next time you go it seems she is ragging and you could not kill her to save you life. What about AQ40? Only a handfull of people still to this day have ever taken on C'Thun. Everyone who calls WoW easy loves to talk about Nax as such an easy raid but they all forget that it was the last Clasic raid and that veary veary few people ever got to see the end of the 40 man Nax raid.

And we never hear them talk about PVP. I would love to have you all tell some of the top PVP players that WoW is easy mode.



Try learning to read, I said I quit before WOTLK ..
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WoW: we want to give players a more fun time with less grinding and generic quests
GW2: we want the player to feel like they are leveling while doing something fun
Final Fantasy XIV: we want less fun and more grinding
#90 Oct 26 2010 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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nick2412 wrote:
[quote=Sethern79]Try learning to read, I said I quit before WOTLK ..


So how far did you get in Sunwell/Blacktemple or AQ40/Nax40?
#91 Oct 26 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a little confused as to what we are meant to be comparing in terms of difficulty here.

WoW compared to FFXI?
WoW compared to FFXIV?
Wow compared to Hello Kitty Online?
All of the above?

In my opinion (Hardest to easiest):

Hello Kitty>FFXI>WoW>FFXIV

Those end game kitty litter raids are no joke!
#92 Oct 26 2010 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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Well, there's really no way to compare FFXIV as it is in it's infancy right now, while the others have had years and years to develop "difficult" content.

The original intent of the post was not to compare any games to any other games, but to realize that all MMOs I've ever played defined "difficult" as how much time you're willing to spend and much less on the gameplay or mechanics of the game itself. In other words if you have the massive times to acquire all the best gear and all of the best skills then really, that's the most difficult part of the time.

The question was simply: why do MMO devs cater to the folks with 8+ hours a day to sit in front of a computer. Why does a game FFXIV become "difficult" because it takes SOO freakin' long to just level up. Why does difficulty = amount of time spent playing?

That was the original intent of the post, and I think it's a very good question.
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#93 Oct 26 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Alright, as a disclaimer of my abilities to play WoW: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackwing+Lair&cn=Mystikal
Also, as a disclaimer for that disclaimer, I have been on the character for less then 30 minutes since 4.0.1 came out since I haven't felt like raiding, I feel I've ended this expansion nicely and that the skill level of those left to play with on my server couldn't match mine, sounds elitist, but considering pre-4.0 I held quite a few damage records and rarely made mistakes, I feel it was justified.

I also played FFXIV in the beta, got to around 20-25. You know what was the most difficult thing I had done in that time? Avoiding those ******* wolves running around and managing to not break my computer whenever I successfully do a synth 5 times in a row like nothing and then proceed to fail to it miserably 10 times in a row. Also, trying to deal with an absolutely terrible UI that you are not allowed to create UI modifications for like you can in WoW.

How does this boil down to difficulty, well, you'd have to compare point to point. Leveling in each game? Recently I just leveled a warrior from 1-80 in WoW on a new server, took me about 2-3 weeks, about 150 hours played. This is without heirlooms and such. Could have been done faster, but I did some raids at 60/70 as well for gear and because I was bored. In FFXIV I leveled to 25 fairly quickly. No battle was difficult. Each fight came down to either "killable" or "unkillable". Either I was going to kill that monster or I wasn't. The few times I got completely ****** over by the RNG machine were also annoying but that's a game so I'll dismiss them. In WoW, atleast some of the (group) quests were difficult to solo. I'd have to manage cooldowns, use abilities properly and come out of the fight with ~10% hp left. Had I just facerolled, I would have died. Atleast that can be considered difficult in some way. Not very difficult for someone of my skill, but still, someone that was new would have died.

Difficult of end game content? FFXIV has no end game content, or atleast none that I have seen so I can't compare. I have however done WoW endgame so I can comment on that. We'll focus on current endgame as its all that is truely challenging. Progression in ICC25 was fun, hardmodes when they first came out at like 5% buff were fun. You mess up a mechanic, game over(see: H LDW ghosts, H PP oozes, H sindy stacks). Then you get to H LK. It is kind of funny because even at 30% buff, the true difficulty in the fight is there. Sure the fight lasts less time, but you drop a defile in a bad spot, wipe. Miss a valkyr, dead dps, lose too many, can no longer kill valkyrs, wipe. Miss an infest, people die. Die in the Frostmourne room, boss enrages, wipe. So many chances for failure. Sure with repetition comes perfection, but a friend of mine that didn't stop raiding still wipes on the fight, even though the guild has killed it 10+ times. All it takes is that defile to be dropped on the melee.

PvP? Once again, no idea what FFXIV has in this department so I can't comment. In WoW I have a PvP alt, full wrathful rogue. 2k 3v3, was in a 2.4k 5v5 for awhile too. Sure WotLK pvp is kind of boring but I still should mention that you miss your CloS, you die. You miss your vanish, you die. You miss your disarm, you die(against a warrior).

I never experienced anything truly difficult in FFXIV, maybe I didn't play enough, but the beta failed to make me want to buy it due to the massive amount of work I felt still needed to be done.
#94 Oct 26 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Curth79 wrote:
Well, there's really no way to compare FFXIV as it is in it's infancy right now, while the others have had years and years to develop "difficult" content.

The original intent of the post was not to compare any games to any other games, but to realize that all MMOs I've ever played defined "difficult" as how much time you're willing to spend and much less on the gameplay or mechanics of the game itself. In other words if you have the massive times to acquire all the best gear and all of the best skills then really, that's the most difficult part of the time.

The question was simply: why do MMO devs cater to the folks with 8+ hours a day to sit in front of a computer. Why does a game FFXIV become "difficult" because it takes SOO freakin' long to just level up. Why does difficulty = amount of time spent playing?

That was the original intent of the post, and I think it's a very good question.


That been the way of RPG's for a vear long time. Look at D&D it could take years to get up past lvl 8 lol. Everquest was the first MMO I played and at the time it took forever to lvl. I think it took me a year befor I got to lvl cap I know kunark had come out befor I hit it.

Evon to a lesser extent games like FF7 and other single player rpg games where more about time spent than being a hard game to play. Sure you could beet jrpg's in a day or 2 but you would not have all the nice shiny stuff like knights of the round. :)

Edited, Oct 26th 2010 11:39am by Sethern79
#95 Oct 26 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Default
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J4n1 wrote:
nick2412 wrote:
[quote=Sethern79]Try learning to read, I said I quit before WOTLK ..


So how far did you get in Sunwell/Blacktemple or AQ40/Nax40?


Blacktemple was really meh... not that difficult.. but sunwell was a pain in the ***... took me forever to just gear up just enough to get accepted in to PUGS.. and those fail horribly... I successfully beat it with my guild on 25 man during the latter moments of my WoW career.

Couldn't beat nax40 before BC simply because I didn't have a guild in WoW till very late in vanilla WoW.. and my gear was completely fail before BC... During BC I did Nax40 with 35 people.. 30 of which were decently geared.. while me in one of the 5 was averagely geared.. I had average tier 5-6 at the time..
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#96 Oct 29 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Sethern79 wrote:
Curth79 wrote:
Well, there's really no way to compare FFXIV as it is in it's infancy right now, while the others have had years and years to develop "difficult" content.

The original intent of the post was not to compare any games to any other games, but to realize that all MMOs I've ever played defined "difficult" as how much time you're willing to spend and much less on the gameplay or mechanics of the game itself. In other words if you have the massive times to acquire all the best gear and all of the best skills then really, that's the most difficult part of the time.

The question was simply: why do MMO devs cater to the folks with 8+ hours a day to sit in front of a computer. Why does a game FFXIV become "difficult" because it takes SOO freakin' long to just level up. Why does difficulty = amount of time spent playing?

That was the original intent of the post, and I think it's a very good question.


That been the way of RPG's for a vear long time. Look at D&D it could take years to get up past lvl 8 lol. Everquest was the first MMO I played and at the time it took forever to lvl. I think it took me a year befor I got to lvl cap I know kunark had come out befor I hit it.

Evon to a lesser extent games like FF7 and other single player rpg games where more about time spent than being a hard game to play. Sure you could beet jrpg's in a day or 2 but you would not have all the nice shiny stuff like knights of the round. :)

Edited, Oct 26th 2010 11:39am by Sethern79


I understand and I see your examples here, good points.
However, the single player or non-MMO RPS had something that MMOs never have had (at least to an interesting degree) and that is a great story. The time played on those games really weren't to level, IMO, but more like reading a book.. you just played until the next "chapter" then continued on with the story.
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