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Alchemy fails off the hook Follow

#1 Oct 24 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I have been failing what I feel are an unreasonable number of alchemy synths. Currently I can reach 3 levels in blacksmith with the most expensive synth support and fail 1 out of 10. However with alchemy I am getting 7 out of 10 fails on a 2 level reach (this was all yesterday) today I was cleaning up some excess raw mats and found I was still failing 3 or so out of 10 in alchemy on recipes that are 3-5 levels below my current level.

Also, I can see a noticeable effect of preserve and maker's muse when using them with blacksmith, but am not getting a consistent improvement using them in alchemy.

Theory: Alchemy is water based while smithing is fire based. I skewed my elemental points heavily into fire, lightning, and wind in hopes it would improve drop rates of those crystals / shards. I was under the impression that elements were not yet effecting gameplay, but perhaps they do indeed have some bearing on crafting?

I would like to get some input from the community before i go too much further. My next step will be to reset my elemental values and skew towards earth ice and water and away from fire lightning and wind to see if I find the results above reversed.

-Teeg

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 12:34pm by Darqflame
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#2 Oct 24 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Default
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Yes, crafting is broken, and I wish you guys would start to realize that bringing up an issue like this without listing class ranks and/or recipes involved makes it awfully difficult to pick things apart.
#3Teegotaru, Posted: Oct 24 2010 at 11:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Classes in question AS STATED blacksmith and alchemist. I am sorry let me capitalize it so you actually see it BLACKSMITH and ALCHEMIST. Recipe is inconsequential as this issue is occurring across a level gap range, not on A recipe.
#4 Oct 24 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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Teegotaru wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Yes, crafting is broken, and I wish you guys would start to realize that bringing up an issue like this without listing class ranks and/or recipes involved makes it awfully difficult to pick things apart.


Classes in question AS STATED blacksmith and alchemist. I am sorry let me capitalize it so you actually see it BLACKSMITH and ALCHEMIST. Recipe is inconsequential as this issue is occurring across a level gap range, not on A recipe.


Read it again before you fly off the handle. I said class RANKS.
#5 Oct 24 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Teegotaru wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Yes, crafting is broken, and I wish you guys would start to realize that bringing up an issue like this without listing class ranks and/or recipes involved makes it awfully difficult to pick things apart.


Classes in question AS STATED blacksmith and alchemist. I am sorry let me capitalize it so you actually see it BLACKSMITH and ALCHEMIST. Recipe is inconsequential as this issue is occurring across a level gap range, not on A recipe.


Before you jump down someone's throat, you might want to make sure you understand their criticism. Aurelius is 100% right in asking what your class rank is. Odds are you're around rank 10 in alchemy, right? That seems to be when things start to hit the fan. Most common answer I've seen is "try and get a new weapon."

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Next time you want to make a smart a$$ comment to a serious post take 10 seconds out of your busy schedule and READ THE POST YOU ARE RESPONDING TO.

This is not a case of 'Waaa crafting is broken' had you read the post before adding your worthless .02 you would realize I was asking for input from other crafters regarding elemental point use.

-Teeg

Might want to take a step back, man. You've got some rage issues.
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#6 Oct 24 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

Read it again before you fly off the handle. I said class RANKS.



My Apologies, i misunderstood your answer. Alchemy is 12 reaching for 14. Blacksmith is 13 reaching for 16. In both cases I was hitting random recipes to clear raw mats out of inventory. I tried to reach 3 in alchemy with very bad results, hence the 2 level reach. Both were using level 7 tool (BS is level 12 tool as of today)

-Teeg

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#7 Oct 24 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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All of my elemental points are in wind & fire, and I'm having no issues with Alchemy synths (only 16 at the moment, but I can take shards into the 20s, and I doubt these R16 synths will become more difficult as my rank increases).

Edited, Oct 24th 2010 1:18pm by Coyohma
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#8 Oct 24 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Did you have a line pop up saying you need larger facilities? Some synths, when they say they require larger facilities, they mean it. I can be 2 ranks under recipe and not have support and fail constantly, go get the proper support then 100% from that point on.
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#9 Oct 24 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teegotaru wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

Read it again before you fly off the handle. I said class RANKS.



My Apologies, i misunderstood your answer. Alchemy is 12 reaching for 14. Blacksmith is 13 reaching for 16. In both cases I was hitting random recipes to clear raw mats out of inventory. I tried to reach 3 in alchemy with very bad results, hence the 2 level reach. Both were using level 7 tool (BS is level 12 tool as of today


You have to keep in mind that a lot of ranks listed for recipes are not accurate, and the assumption that facility support "extends" anything is unconfirmed. That's why I was asking for recipes.
#10 Oct 24 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Who's to say some of the suggested ranks on the various resource sites are correct? Also, some recipes are no doubt harder without the suggested training books while others you can get by easily without them. Seems like they're becoming more vital the higher rank I get as well. I'm learning which synths I need to make sure I'm well above suggested ranks through trial & error. Sometimes that's a painful process, but I don't think you can take suggested ranks listed on these sites(which are constantly changing & being updating now) from 2 different classes and conclude anything.
Preserve is awesome on any crafting class I use it on. Not sure what's goin' on there for you.

I also have moments where it seems I'm failing more often then I should....I start looking at the moon phase and the element of the day/hour, the deity I chose etc. The elemental affinity stuff comes to mind now & then too. Maybe a lot of those things chip in to the randomness of crafting, but I keep it simple and figure if I'm breaking a lot then I'm gonna wait until later to try again. Saves me the headache of trying to figure out all those intangibles on my crafts.

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#11 Oct 24 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

You have to keep in mind that a lot of ranks listed for recipes are not accurate, and the assumption that facility support "extends" anything is unconfirmed. That's why I was asking for recipes.


Alchemy was fish glue (the dark bass recipe) and illuminating salts.

Blacksmithing was bronze pick axe head, bronze head knife blade (both 16) and birdsbeak hammer head (17)

I am admittedly treating support the same way as I did in XI, and by default expecting it to allow me to reach a few levels. I can say that without support I had a spectacular fail on the birdsbeak head (wore off and I didn't notice)

-Teeg


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#12 Oct 24 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teegotaru wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

You have to keep in mind that a lot of ranks listed for recipes are not accurate, and the assumption that facility support "extends" anything is unconfirmed. That's why I was asking for recipes.


Alchemy was fish glue (the dark bass recipe) and illuminating salts.

Blacksmithing was bronze pick axe head, bronze head knife blade (both 16) and birdsbeak hammer head (17)

I am admittedly treating support the same way as I did in XI, and by default expecting it to allow me to reach a few levels. I can say that without support I had a spectacular fail on the birdsbeak head (wore off and I didn't notice)


Birdsbeak Hammer Head actually calls for Common support, meaning that your chances of success without that support are penalized rather significantly unless you're well above the recommended rank to make it. Bronze Pickaxe Head is the same...both recommend Common Smith's Forge. That's a case where you're not "reaching" anything. You're attempting roughly rank 11-13 recipes with a rank 13 blacksmith and when you do as the recipe recommends by way of support, everything is fine.

The fish glue appears to be a higher rank than you might think. People reporting success with it at or below rank 13 are boasting some pretty tasty gear for the rank and/or are using things like HQ mineral water for the extra durability. Illuminating Salts appear to be about the same. So the issue you're likely having is that you're comparing at or above rank synthesis with blacksmith (I was making bronze pickaxe heads with some difficulty at rank 9 BS) to below rank synthesis with alchemist. Most tiers of recipes work on the rule of 10, starting at rank 5. At rank 5 alchemy, animal glue is yummy. At rank 15, it's fish glue. At rank 25, it'll be horn glue. You can make lower, but it's a lot easier to make at or above. And the higher your rank (part of why I was asking), the less forgiving crafting becomes. Beyond rank 20 or so right now, with the way the system is tuned you can easily fail rank 20 leves at rank 25.


Edited, Oct 24th 2010 10:37am by Aurelius
#13 Oct 24 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Yes, crafting is broken, and I wish you guys would start to realize that bringing up an issue like this without listing class ranks and/or recipes involved makes it awfully difficult to pick things apart.


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#14 Oct 24 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:


Birdsbeak Hammer Head actually calls for Common support, meaning that your chances of success without that support are penalized rather significantly unless you're well above the recommended rank to make it. Bronze Pickaxe Head is the same...both recommend Common Smith's Forge. That's a case where you're not "reaching" anything. You're attempting roughly rank 11-13 recipes with a rank 13 blacksmith and when you do as the recipe recommends by way of support, everything is fine.

The fish glue appears to be a higher rank than you might think. People reporting success with it at or below rank 13 are boasting some pretty tasty gear for the rank and/or are using things like HQ mineral water for the extra durability. Illuminating Salts appear to be about the same. So the issue you're likely having is that you're comparing at or above rank synthesis with blacksmith (I was making bronze pickaxe heads with some difficulty at rank 9 BS) to below rank synthesis with alchemist. Most tiers of recipes work on the rule of 10, starting at rank 5. At rank 5 alchemy, animal glue is yummy. At rank 15, it's fish glue. At rank 25, it'll be horn glue. You can make lower, but it's a lot easier to make at or above. And the higher your rank (part of why I was asking), the less forgiving crafting becomes. Beyond rank 20 or so right now, with the way the system is tuned you can easily fail rank 20 leves at rank 25.


Thank you for the info and explanation Aurelius. I was really hoping it would be a matter of elemental alignment and I would be able to do my crafting in blocks around the cool down on reassigning points. Its a face palm moment for me for reacting the way I did to you initial post (so used to getting attacked on a post with an otherwise serious theme that I came in defensive).

-Teeg


edit: fixed quote block

Edited, Oct 24th 2010 2:00pm by Teegotaru
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#16 Oct 24 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Teegotaru wrote:

Thank you for the info and explanation Aurelius. I was really hoping it would be a matter of elemental alignment and I would be able to do my crafting in blocks around the cool down on reassigning points. Its a face palm moment for me for reacting the way I did to you initial post (so used to getting attacked on a post with an otherwise serious theme that I came in defensive).


The difficult thing with crafting right now is that everyone and their dog is lobbing out theories and assumptions as fact. A short while ago, someone posted a guide for a particular DoH class that suggested (aka stated as fact) that elemental resistances influenced outcomes. Not being one to pooh-pooh an idea like that without having messed around with it myself first hand, I decided to apply that theory to armorer. Everything I do in any significant quantity with armorer right now requires earth shards in abundance and frequently wind shards, so I stacked the lion's share of my elemental affinity points into those. At physical level 41, that's a lot of points. It made absolutely no difference.

And if you think about it, SE would be rather foolish to design the system in such a way as to allow elemental resistances to play any significant role. Yes, you could take a look at what you're cranking out in mass quantities for skill and adjust resistances based on that, but with the cooldown on reassigning points it would be terrible after a while. And if it ever became a case where those resistances could make or break you on a regular basis, the system would be horribly flawed because I can sit down and go through the steps from raw materials -> finished product and use almost every different kind of shard you can think of in the process.

As it is, crafting is broken. That's my broken record/dead horse topic until SE fixes it. I just went 7/7 on dodo leather vamps skilling up leatherworker at rank 15...the recommended "minimum" rank for the synth and then botched 5 in a row without getting over 60 progress. Inconsistencies like that frustrate the **** out of players, especially when there's no clear reason for it. All we're left to assume is that there's a hidden influence somewhere that we have no control over or the system is so poorly tuned that random chance plays an excessive role in outcomes. Fine if you're doing a one-shot, mats in boxes and go synth. Not so great when each synth is a 2 minute mini-game intended to present the illusion of control.
#17 Oct 24 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Just out of curiosity, what is your INT stat? Apparently, that has some bearing on how successful you are with Alchemy synths, which isn't beyond the realm of possibility, due to the trait granted from the Alchemy Guild.
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#18 Oct 24 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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ScorpionEx wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what is your INT stat? Apparently, that has some bearing on how successful you are with Alchemy synths, which isn't beyond the realm of possibility, due to the trait granted from the Alchemy Guild.


My base was 17, which is where I have left it. My 'main' is archer (although in reality I find myself leaning more towards crafting now and am leveling arch only for crystal / shard farming). I put all my eggs into the str/vit/dex basket.

I would be willing to dedicate a couple hours to some craft grinding sessions to see how the outcome is, but with what Aurelius said about his experience with the Dodo Leather Vamps I am afraid that anything short of 100's of synths to show the beginning of a pattern won't help, and by that time I'd be level up blowing the setup. Maybe when I get into the 20's and levels really stretch out

-Teeg
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#19 Oct 24 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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Teegotaru wrote:
ScorpionEx wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what is your INT stat? Apparently, that has some bearing on how successful you are with Alchemy synths, which isn't beyond the realm of possibility, due to the trait granted from the Alchemy Guild.


My base was 17, which is where I have left it. My 'main' is archer (although in reality I find myself leaning more towards crafting now and am leveling arch only for crystal / shard farming). I put all my eggs into the str/vit/dex basket.

I would be willing to dedicate a couple hours to some craft grinding sessions to see how the outcome is, but with what Aurelius said about his experience with the Dodo Leather Vamps I am afraid that anything short of 100's of synths to show the beginning of a pattern won't help, and by that time I'd be level up blowing the setup. Maybe when I get into the 20's and levels really stretch out

-Teeg


This is probably it. It'd very much a possibility that alchemy crafting is determined by INT, and if you're still at base, then it stands to reason that may be why you're failing synths. Blacksmith, being a far more physical craft, is probably determined by STR/DEX.
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#20 Oct 24 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gadhelyn wrote:
Teegotaru wrote:
ScorpionEx wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what is your INT stat? Apparently, that has some bearing on how successful you are with Alchemy synths, which isn't beyond the realm of possibility, due to the trait granted from the Alchemy Guild.


My base was 17, which is where I have left it. My 'main' is archer (although in reality I find myself leaning more towards crafting now and am leveling arch only for crystal / shard farming). I put all my eggs into the str/vit/dex basket.

I would be willing to dedicate a couple hours to some craft grinding sessions to see how the outcome is, but with what Aurelius said about his experience with the Dodo Leather Vamps I am afraid that anything short of 100's of synths to show the beginning of a pattern won't help, and by that time I'd be level up blowing the setup. Maybe when I get into the 20's and levels really stretch out

-Teeg


This is probably it. It'd very much a possibility that alchemy crafting is determined by INT, and if you're still at base, then it stands to reason that may be why you're failing synths. Blacksmith, being a far more physical craft, is probably determined by STR/DEX.



each craft has a stat and element tied to it, you can easily find out which ones are for your craft by checking the the guilds and looking at the ablities you can get later on with Marks

ex: ARM is VIT and Earth, i know BSM is STR i for get the element..... now idk if they effect you all that much with the current extream random system that SE has in place atm but its alteast a starting point when thinking about your stats and how you set them up
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#21 Oct 24 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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My alchemy is sitting around 15 and I find it far and away the easiest crafting class I'm pursuing.
I think it's the high INT stat that helps (my main is a conjurer), try dropping some points in INT and see if you have better luck!
#22 Oct 24 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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IXICascadeTaiga wrote:
each craft has a stat and element tied to it, you can easily find out which ones are for your craft by checking the the guilds and looking at the ablities you can get later on with Marks

ex: ARM is VIT and Earth, i know BSM is STR i for get the element..... now idk if they effect you all that much with the current extream random system that SE has in place atm but its alteast a starting point when thinking about your stats and how you set them up


There's really not a lot of impact from stats or resistances on crafting right now. People are looking ahead and trying to mash their theories into something that resembles fact, but here's another fact: my Vitality is 100 and my earth and wind resistance/affinity are 92, and crafting beyond rank 20 is still a tedious pain in the ***. It wouldn't surprise me to see SE increase the influence of those things down the road but as far as trying to link them to difficulties with crafting now, it's a non-issue. They aren't making a difference.
#23 Oct 24 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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Also Fish Glue requires training as well. If it requires Training and you don't have it, the higher rank recipes will be very punishing. For instance I couldn't even get past 60% today with Dark Silver Circlet leves. Training is not very noticeable pre-rank 25, but after rank 25 it will be as much mandatory as required facility (support).
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#24 Oct 24 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
Also Fish Glue requires training as well. If it requires Training and you don't have it, the higher rank recipes will be very punishing. For instance I couldn't even get past 60% today with Dark Silver Circlet leves. Training is not very noticeable pre-rank 25, but after rank 25 it will be as much mandatory as required facility (support).


That might be a part of my problem then. Which is good in a sense that if it's true, I can stop harping on SE about tuning crafting so poorly, but all it means is that I have to turn around and harp on them for designing a system that can present you with a total of two leves over the span of two resets (72 hours) that are eligible to award guild marks, and failing one of them because it requires training that I don't have and can't get because I've earned a total of 3300 armorer's guild marks (including the 2k from the class quest) since I joined the guild 3 weeks ago. You know what I want? Chainweaving. That's it. I get that and I'm back to the grind. Until then, I'm not blowing up 20-24 shards/synth because I'm stuck in that spot between "don't really need training" and "kk got my training lesgo."
#25 Oct 24 2010 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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I do believe that you can get more chance + more Guild Mark from high evaluation, lately I've been getting 700 Guild Marks from each leve if they do give out, and once I finish my current Guild Quest I will be able to buy the 2nd Training book. Have you tried Bold to boost the evaluation?
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#26 Oct 24 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
I do believe that you can get more chance + more Guild Mark from high evaluation, lately I've been getting 700 Guild Marks from each leve if they do give out, and once I finish my current Guild Quest I will be able to buy the 2nd Training book. Have you tried Bold to boost the evaluation?


I can't afford to use Bold on most leves right now. I've received marks from two leves so far. One was around the time I joined the guild. It was ~450 marks and I don't recall the final assessment score. The second time was ~900 for a rank 25 leve with a final score of 32. I agree that final assessment might influence the quantity of marks, but I'm not sold on the idea that it influences whether or not you receive them at all.
#27 Oct 24 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I apologize if this post seems irrelevant, but I thought I'd throw in my own experiences regarding this as an Alchemist myself.
I recently hit rank 20 and decided I wanted to try out making a Paralyzing Dagger for my Gladiator friend. At rank 20, I'm one rank below what I've been told (and looked up from several sources online) is the synth for paralyzing potions and clove oil. That wasn't too bad. The clove oil I made 100% of, and the paralyzing potion I was 2/4, using only Common Laboratory access.
So, next step, making the actual dagger. According to YG, this is a rank 21 synth. It doesn't appear to be listed on the ZAM site, but the similar daggers (blinding and the other one whose name I forgot) seem to be a lower rank. Anwyay, I attempted to make this synth four times with the Master Laboratory access and failed 100% of the time. The first synth was generally successful until an unstable element killed me at 97%. The other four synths made me feel like I was trying to make something 10 ranks above me (I don't think I made any of the other three past 40%).
Very frustrating, but I imagine it's because the Para dagger's synth level is actually a lot higher than I've been told.

Now, on the flip side, I also attempted to make some Horn Glue, what I understand to be rank 25 synth. Using the same Master Laboratory access, I was able to complete the synthesis on my first, and only, try - it was kind of close, with my durability floating around 20, but I still made it.

So unless the Paralyzing Dagger synth rank is actually higher than I thought, I'm a bit confused by this outcome. I understand that synthing just kind of fails sometimes. You know, **** happens. In the end, I'm not exactly sure what to think. I'd like to blame a broken crafting system for wasting me four Brass Daggers (not a huge deal), but why was I able to make the Horn Glue reasonably?

Whatever. Just my two cents. The crafting system doesn't seem totally broke, in my opinion. It's a **** of a lot better than in beta. I think the important thing is to figure out all the little kinks and pay attention to what's going on, using appropriate skills when necessary, etc. (I'll note that, during both of the above big synths, I was using a combination of Fulfillment, Preserve, and Tender Touch as my abilities).
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#28 Oct 24 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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ArkWeldwin wrote:
Now, on the flip side, I also attempted to make some Horn Glue, what I understand to be rank 25 synth. Using the same Master Laboratory access, I was able to complete the synthesis on my first, and only, try - it was kind of close, with my durability floating around 20, but I still made it.


A general rule of thumb that I've adopted is that if your resource of choice lists a recipe as being rank 21, assume rank 25.
#29 Oct 25 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
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This question is to Aurelius specifically, but anyone who has something to add feel free to jump in:

You mentioned that on synths that require additional accommodations your chances of failure are elevated if you are not several levels beyond its cap. reading some responses in this thread, whats you opinion on support? I always take the third option. Thats the FFXI in me though, I am thinking that it will allow me to reach better. Lets say for instance I am at level 13 reaching to level 14. The recipe requires a common accommodation. Am I more, less, or the same in my likelyhood of success if I use the third (most expensive) form of support? Never occurred to me I may be cutting my own throat by going beyond what is required.

-Teeg

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#30 Oct 25 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Teegotaru wrote:
This question is to Aurelius specifically, but anyone who has something to add feel free to jump in:

You mentioned that on synths that require additional accommodations your chances of failure are elevated if you are not several levels beyond its cap. reading some responses in this thread, whats you opinion on support? I always take the third option. Thats the FFXI in me though, I am thinking that it will allow me to reach better. Lets say for instance I am at level 13 reaching to level 14. The recipe requires a common accommodation. Am I more, less, or the same in my likelyhood of success if I use the third (most expensive) form of support? Never occurred to me I may be cutting my own throat by going beyond what is required.


I take whatever is recommended and that's about it. A lot of people swear up and down that it works the same way it did in FFXI but they aren't able to offer up any concrete proof of it. My experience through several thousand synths is that it makes no difference at all unless the recipe calls for it and going beyond what it calls for is just throwing your gil away.
#31 Oct 25 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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There are so many thinks that influence crafting. Personly i try to balance everything. Gear, tools and of course elemental points (i give every element the same amount of points). When i hit the standard requirement of a recipe i have no trouble making it. Sure, sometimes i fail, but personly i think that's because i am doing stupid things like using to much rapid synth for example, not using the 'wait' option when things are not going well or not using a facility when the recipe requires it. I did some leveling with my alchemist yesterday, making table salt at Rank 15. I had some fails, but not 3 out 10. From lvl 15 to lvl 16 mayby 3 fails. Anyway, it doesn't feel like 'Alchemy fails off the hook' for me.

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 3:57am by grazypanda
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#32 Oct 25 2010 at 1:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Aurelius wrote:
Teegotaru wrote:
This question is to Aurelius specifically, but anyone who has something to add feel free to jump in:

You mentioned that on synths that require additional accommodations your chances of failure are elevated if you are not several levels beyond its cap. reading some responses in this thread, whats you opinion on support? I always take the third option. Thats the FFXI in me though, I am thinking that it will allow me to reach better. Lets say for instance I am at level 13 reaching to level 14. The recipe requires a common accommodation. Am I more, less, or the same in my likelyhood of success if I use the third (most expensive) form of support? Never occurred to me I may be cutting my own throat by going beyond what is required.


I take whatever is recommended and that's about it. A lot of people swear up and down that it works the same way it did in FFXI but they aren't able to offer up any concrete proof of it. My experience through several thousand synths is that it makes no difference at all unless the recipe calls for it and going beyond what it calls for is just throwing your gil away.



I am hoping to prove (or at least disprove) this theory actually --that it works the same as in XI-- If it does, it should give you +1, +2, +3 effective rank levels for common, guild, and master support, respectively.

What I'm planning on doing is finding out what the limit is on skill range before it wont let you attempt the synth, which was 15? I think, in XI. Then, start up a level 1 DoH class and try to synth a level 16 synth. If it's actually 15 levels, it shouldn't let me do it as a level 1 but SHOULD let me attempt it at 1 with Common synth support. Same goes with level 17 and 18 for Guild and Masters support, respectively.
#33 Oct 25 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Good
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Teegotaru wrote:
This question is to Aurelius specifically, but anyone who has something to add feel free to jump in:

You mentioned that on synths that require additional accommodations your chances of failure are elevated if you are not several levels beyond its cap. reading some responses in this thread, whats you opinion on support? I always take the third option. Thats the FFXI in me though, I am thinking that it will allow me to reach better. Lets say for instance I am at level 13 reaching to level 14. The recipe requires a common accommodation. Am I more, less, or the same in my likelyhood of success if I use the third (most expensive) form of support? Never occurred to me I may be cutting my own throat by going beyond what is required.


I take whatever is recommended and that's about it. A lot of people swear up and down that it works the same way it did in FFXI but they aren't able to offer up any concrete proof of it. My experience through several thousand synths is that it makes no difference at all unless the recipe calls for it and going beyond what it calls for is just throwing your gil away.



I am hoping to prove (or at least disprove) this theory actually --that it works the same as in XI-- If it does, it should give you +1, +2, +3 effective rank levels for common, guild, and master support, respectively.

What I'm planning on doing is finding out what the limit is on skill range before it wont let you attempt the synth, which was 15? I think, in XI. Then, start up a level 1 DoH class and try to synth a level 16 synth. If it's actually 15 levels, it shouldn't let me do it as a level 1 but SHOULD let me attempt it at 1 with Common synth support. Same goes with level 17 and 18 for Guild and Masters support, respectively.


From what I gather in FFXIV this is dependent on the recipe itself. Some recipe allows relatively large level range to attempt the synth, others are very harsh and only allows when you're about 4-5 levels within range. For instance the Bone Scale Mail won't allow an ARM with r1 (default) TAN to attempt it, whilst the Tortoiseshell allows a GLD with r1 TAN to attempt it, even though at r15 TAN it still tells me my TAN rank is low.

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 5:50am by Khornette
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#34 Oct 25 2010 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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Sometimes it obvious support is helping and other times it seems like more of a placebo effect to me. I prefer knowing it's there, but I'm not sure it's changed anything at all. Also I swear sometimes getting master support seems to hurt lol. Sounds crazy, but I got into the habit of always getting support for a bit there and during one leve I failed a lot. It ran out and I kept going...succeeding on the last 2 with zero support. This has happened on a few occasions and some LS friends have noticed the same kind of thing. Could've just been other factors contributing to those situations, but I did find it funny that I suddenly breezed through those synths without support.

I think it adds to the discussion of how random the crafting system can be, and really this entire game. Aside from certain low level recipes that require no training, it may be hard to ever say "Class A can succeed at Synth B 100% of the time once reaching rank C." A lot different than what we're used to from XI. I'm sure the lists & databases will get much better though, we're like the guinea pigs here.

Like Aurelius mentioned, it's a good idea to assume you need a few levels higher than what recipe lists suggest unless you give it a shot and find out otherwise. Sometimes that rank is the bare minimum to try the recipe and it still may be too hard at that level. Ran into some of that last night trying to set myself up with a new canvas outfit. I knew the listed rank sounded wrong, but I had to try...

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 7:52am by TwistedOwl
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#35 Oct 25 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Teegotaru wrote:
This question is to Aurelius specifically, but anyone who has something to add feel free to jump in:

You mentioned that on synths that require additional accommodations your chances of failure are elevated if you are not several levels beyond its cap. reading some responses in this thread, whats you opinion on support? I always take the third option. Thats the FFXI in me though, I am thinking that it will allow me to reach better. Lets say for instance I am at level 13 reaching to level 14. The recipe requires a common accommodation. Am I more, less, or the same in my likelyhood of success if I use the third (most expensive) form of support? Never occurred to me I may be cutting my own throat by going beyond what is required.


I take whatever is recommended and that's about it. A lot of people swear up and down that it works the same way it did in FFXI but they aren't able to offer up any concrete proof of it. My experience through several thousand synths is that it makes no difference at all unless the recipe calls for it and going beyond what it calls for is just throwing your gil away.



I am hoping to prove (or at least disprove) this theory actually --that it works the same as in XI-- If it does, it should give you +1, +2, +3 effective rank levels for common, guild, and master support, respectively.

What I'm planning on doing is finding out what the limit is on skill range before it wont let you attempt the synth, which was 15? I think, in XI. Then, start up a level 1 DoH class and try to synth a level 16 synth. If it's actually 15 levels, it shouldn't let me do it as a level 1 but SHOULD let me attempt it at 1 with Common synth support. Same goes with level 17 and 18 for Guild and Masters support, respectively.


I think the gap is closer to 6 ranks. I know when I was ranking up Weaver my one and only objective was to be able to make undyed canvas and it wouldn't even let me attempt the synth until rank 19. At rank 22 it's still tough to make and it's commonly listed as a rank 25 recipe. The difficult part is finding a recipe for which you are certain the "optimal" rank listed is accurate.
#36 Oct 25 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Also Fish Glue requires training as well. If it requires Training and you don't have it, the higher rank recipes will be very punishing. For instance I couldn't even get past 60% today with Dark Silver Circlet leves. Training is not very noticeable pre-rank 25, but after rank 25 it will be as much mandatory as required facility (support).


That might be a part of my problem then. Which is good in a sense that if it's true, I can stop harping on SE about tuning crafting so poorly, but all it means is that I have to turn around and harp on them for designing a system that can present you with a total of two leves over the span of two resets (72 hours) that are eligible to award guild marks, and failing one of them because it requires training that I don't have and can't get because I've earned a total of 3300 armorer's guild marks (including the 2k from the class quest) since I joined the guild 3 weeks ago. You know what I want? Chainweaving. That's it. I get that and I'm back to the grind. Until then, I'm not blowing up 20-24 shards/synth because I'm stuck in that spot between "don't really need training" and "kk got my training lesgo."
I've been having a really hard time with this myself. I'm almost rank 25 in one crafting class and one combat class. My crafting class still doesn't even have enough marks to get one training book, while my combat class has already purchased three abilities and is sitting on about 20k spare marks.
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#37 Oct 25 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
You have to keep in mind that a lot of ranks listed for recipes are not accurate, and the assumption that facility support "extends" anything is unconfirmed. That's why I was asking for recipes.


^ This. My theory is that most of the recipes we see were posted by the guy that tried it once and got lucky. He then posts it and ppl assume it's accurate rank-wise, not knowing that it's 4-5 ranks below being able to do the synth consistently.

Quote:
As it is, crafting is broken. That's my broken record/dead horse topic until SE fixes it. I just went 7/7 on dodo leather vamps skilling up leatherworker at rank 15...the recommended "minimum" rank for the synth and then botched 5 in a row without getting over 60 progress. Inconsistencies like that frustrate the **** out of players, especially when there's no clear reason for it


^ this too. It's amazing how I can 10/10 on ash lumber @ 10:00 and then go 1/6 @ 12:00.

Edit: Also, elemental instabilities. I can go days without one then have 6 in one hour...sometimes 2 different elements go unstable in the same synth. I would understand if I were doing synths well beyond my rank but it happens on synths I have done before with good success.

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 9:46am by SkinwalkerAsura
#38 Oct 25 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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The Glorious SkinwalkerAsura wrote:

^ this too. It's amazing how I can 10/10 on ash lumber @ 10:00 and then go 1/6 @ 12:00.

Edit: Also, elemental instabilities. I can go days without one then have 6 in one hour...sometimes 2 different elements go unstable in the same synth. I would understand if I were doing synths well beyond my rank but it happens on synths I have done before with good success.


I just tried something this morning, and it may well be another "Goblin Bomb Toss Shoulder Check" theory, but so far it's been working well enough to warrant further testing.

I'm working on Leatherworking right now. I had about 4-5 stacks of dodo skins that I converted (painfully) to leather and then set about the process of making dodo leather vamps. I'm apparently a bit low for vamps, but when I first started out I managed four relatively easy synths and then it went to **** and I failed 4 in a row. I canceled out of the synthesis interface and did some inventory sorting and then started up again and the same thing happened. Three easy synths, one borderline success, and two failures. I canceled out of the interface again, sold the vamps I had made to an NPC and started gain. Same thing...4 easy synths and then massive failure. Canceled out and started again. Back to easy. A few synths later, two massive failures. Stand up, start again, easy.

Could just be random coincidence. Could be anti-bot systems. Could be anything, but I'm going to keep trying that method and see how it goes.
#39 Oct 25 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm having trouble figuring out why this was moved to the Alchemy forum.

Yes the thread title says 'Alchemy' but this affects all crafts and the discussion reflects that.

EDIT: moved back to General >.< ty lol

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 1:34pm by rikkuotaku
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#40 Oct 25 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
Aurelius wrote:
The Glorious SkinwalkerAsura wrote:

^ this too. It's amazing how I can 10/10 on ash lumber @ 10:00 and then go 1/6 @ 12:00.

Edit: Also, elemental instabilities. I can go days without one then have 6 in one hour...sometimes 2 different elements go unstable in the same synth. I would understand if I were doing synths well beyond my rank but it happens on synths I have done before with good success.


I just tried something this morning, and it may well be another "Goblin Bomb Toss Shoulder Check" theory, but so far it's been working well enough to warrant further testing.

I'm working on Leatherworking right now. I had about 4-5 stacks of dodo skins that I converted (painfully) to leather and then set about the process of making dodo leather vamps. I'm apparently a bit low for vamps, but when I first started out I managed four relatively easy synths and then it went to **** and I failed 4 in a row. I canceled out of the synthesis interface and did some inventory sorting and then started up again and the same thing happened. Three easy synths, one borderline success, and two failures. I canceled out of the interface again, sold the vamps I had made to an NPC and started gain. Same thing...4 easy synths and then massive failure. Canceled out and started again. Back to easy. A few synths later, two massive failures. Stand up, start again, easy.

Could just be random coincidence. Could be anti-bot systems. Could be anything, but I'm going to keep trying that method and see how it goes.


Hmmm I'll give it a go tonight and see what happens. Another thing I noticed is whenever I try something beyond my rank I'll complete the first synth easily then bomb every one after that. Wonder if the pause trick will work with that?
#41 Oct 25 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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The Glorious SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Quote:

Could just be random coincidence. Could be anti-bot systems. Could be anything, but I'm going to keep trying that method and see how it goes.


Hmmm I'll give it a go tonight and see what happens. Another thing I noticed is whenever I try something beyond my rank I'll complete the first synth easily then bomb every one after that. Wonder if the pause trick will work with that?


Give it a shot. Worst case scenario you'll waste a few seconds to stand and then kneel again. I did a few more runs and my results don't support the theory as well as I might have hoped. I'm learning what influences destabilized elements have on crafting, though. Lightning halves progress gains and wind doubles durability loss :P
#42 Oct 25 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
Aurelius wrote:
The Glorious SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Quote:

Could just be random coincidence. Could be anti-bot systems. Could be anything, but I'm going to keep trying that method and see how it goes.


Hmmm I'll give it a go tonight and see what happens. Another thing I noticed is whenever I try something beyond my rank I'll complete the first synth easily then bomb every one after that. Wonder if the pause trick will work with that?


Give it a shot. Worst case scenario you'll waste a few seconds to stand and then kneel again. I did a few more runs and my results don't support the theory as well as I might have hoped. I'm learning what influences destabilized elements have on crafting, though. Lightning halves progress gains and wind doubles durability loss :P


lol yeah lightning instability sucks, and wind isn't much better. The "best" I've found (at least for me) is earth. Seems to be the most stable of the unstable :P
#43 Oct 25 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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The Glorious SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
lol yeah lightning instability sucks, and wind isn't much better. The "best" I've found (at least for me) is earth. Seems to be the most stable of the unstable :P


It also seems to me that elemental resistances, while they have no apparent impact on success/failure rates, do appear to have an impact on durability (and possibly quality) loss from chaotic elements. I had one wind element go chaotic on me today and only lost 16 durability (92 wind resistance). Still failed the synth because it the element destabilized again after the next action, but hey, some failures are more fun than others.

<.<

>.>

ffs
#44 Oct 25 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Agreed with respect to the instabilities. If I get an instability that's the same as an element I have a lot of points in, it doesn't have much of an effect. If I get one in an element I have no points in, it's "kiss those materials good-bye" time.

I find myself wondering if support doesn't really help crafting a little. The repair vendors offer support, after all; that would make no sense if the support didn't effectively increase your level a little (since repairs don't require special skills or facilities!) Now, "it makes no sense" doesn't mean it wasn't put in the game that way, and obviously there had to be a general-purpose facilities person in each city SOMEWHERE, but making it the repair vendor is really dumb unless the support has some effect on repair...

There's also the fact that crafting in FF14 is a lot more complicated than it is in 11, much less other games, because of the gear dependence. Clearly all that gear's doing something. With a brass head knife, a pretty decent set of cotton crafting gear, basic support, and level 13 leatherworking, I was able to put together eight dodo leather synths with only one fail (though I ran into instabilities pretty often). Judicious use and abuse of fulfillment and preserve helped me get through. Doubtless in five more levels it will be a much easier synth, and I'll be shooting for quality instead of finishing with 10 quality and 10 durability and saying "whew!" But it's possible way below where it really ought to be...

What we really need to do is to have people write down their crafting results. Not just "I was level 13 and crafted dodo leather 9 times, 1 fail", but with all the trimmings. What was your Control stat? Your Craftsmanship and Mag. Craftsmanship? What phase was the moon? Your elemental stats? Get enough data like that, and you could start running statistical regressions to figure out what had some influence and what didn't. (On the other hand, combining information from two people would be rough - if one of them is just better at the mini-game, or at least paying more attention when they craft, that would show up in the numbers too... Of course, a proper regression would demonstrate that as well.)
#45 Oct 25 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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AvatarexADV wrote:
I find myself wondering if support doesn't really help crafting a little. The repair vendors offer support, after all; that would make no sense if the support didn't effectively increase your level a little (since repairs don't require special skills or facilities!) Now, "it makes no sense" doesn't mean it wasn't put in the game that way, and obviously there had to be a general-purpose facilities person in each city SOMEWHERE, but making it the repair vendor is really dumb unless the support has some effect on repair...


To be completely honest, I've wondered that myself. The thought occurred to me that maybe it's for the HQ gear that everyone is saying takes a "higher" craft skill to repair. (I don't think it takes higher, I just think it has a higher chance to fail, much like a recipe that recommends Common facilities has a higher chance to fail than a recipe of the same rank that doesn't have that recommendation.) And the reason I bring up that as an alternative purpose is not to say it proves or disproves anything. It's just that as long as my results suggest very strongly that the facility support makes no difference unless it's recommended by a recipe and there are rational alternative uses for things like support from the repair NPC, imma stick to my guns about the benefits of facility support until proven otherwise by hard numbers.

Quote:
There's also the fact that crafting in FF14 is a lot more complicated than it is in 11, much less other games, because of the gear dependence. Clearly all that gear's doing something. With a brass head knife, a pretty decent set of cotton crafting gear, basic support, and level 13 leatherworking, I was able to put together eight dodo leather synths with only one fail (though I ran into instabilities pretty often). Judicious use and abuse of fulfillment and preserve helped me get through. Doubtless in five more levels it will be a much easier synth, and I'll be shooting for quality instead of finishing with 10 quality and 10 durability and saying "whew!" But it's possible way below where it really ought to be...


I started making dodo leather around rank 12 with the bronze head knife and my current array of crafting gear (cotton gear mostly, assault sallet for BSM/TAN). It was painful, but I needed the straps/spetches so I stuck it out. Rank 14 was a bit better. Went back yesterday at rank 15 and it was ******* painful. And then when I had a mountain of dodo leather (about half the size of what it might have been minus the fails) I could have made a lot more spetches are grit my teeth and started in on vamps. Bored or frustrated...very little in between with that choice.

Quote:
What we really need to do is to have people write down their crafting results. Not just "I was level 13 and crafted dodo leather 9 times, 1 fail", but with all the trimmings. What was your Control stat? Your Craftsmanship and Mag. Craftsmanship? What phase was the moon? Your elemental stats? Get enough data like that, and you could start running statistical regressions to figure out what had some influence and what didn't. (On the other hand, combining information from two people would be rough - if one of them is just better at the mini-game, or at least paying more attention when they craft, that would show up in the numbers too... Of course, a proper regression would demonstrate that as well.)


That would be awesome, but I'm not expecting it right now. It would require vast amounts of data and you can only do so many synths at one rank before you rank up and then you're on to a completely different data set. I would imagine it will happen in time, as will most things with the game.
#46 Oct 25 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:


To be completely honest, I've wondered that myself. The thought occurred to me that maybe it's for the HQ gear that everyone is saying takes a "higher" craft skill to repair. (I don't think it takes higher, I just think it has a higher chance to fail, much like a recipe that recommends Common facilities has a higher chance to fail than a recipe of the same rank that doesn't have that recommendation.) And the reason I bring up that as an alternative purpose is not to say it proves or disproves anything. It's just that as long as my results suggest very strongly that the facility support makes no difference unless it's recommended by a recipe and there are rational alternative uses for things like support from the repair NPC, imma stick to my guns about the benefits of facility support until proven otherwise by hard numbers.


It does take higher to repair. The game wouldn't even allow me to attempt to repair the +1 willow wand I made at rank 15 Carp. "You decide to wait until you have a higher skill to attempt this..."

It let me do NQ willow wands though.
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#47 Oct 25 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


To be completely honest, I've wondered that myself. The thought occurred to me that maybe it's for the HQ gear that everyone is saying takes a "higher" craft skill to repair. (I don't think it takes higher, I just think it has a higher chance to fail, much like a recipe that recommends Common facilities has a higher chance to fail than a recipe of the same rank that doesn't have that recommendation.) And the reason I bring up that as an alternative purpose is not to say it proves or disproves anything. It's just that as long as my results suggest very strongly that the facility support makes no difference unless it's recommended by a recipe and there are rational alternative uses for things like support from the repair NPC, imma stick to my guns about the benefits of facility support until proven otherwise by hard numbers.


It does take higher to repair. The game wouldn't even allow me to attempt to repair the +1 willow wand I made at rank 15 Carp. "You decide to wait until you have a higher skill to attempt this..."

It let me do NQ willow wands though.


That is true, I couldn't repair Ash Macuahuitl +1 at r18 when I made it (it won't let me), but at r23 I can. The thing is, I forgot to try support to see if it let me repair it before r23, that may answer the question.
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#48 Oct 25 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

I think the gap is closer to 6 ranks. I know when I was ranking up Weaver my one and only objective was to be able to make undyed canvas and it wouldn't even let me attempt the synth until rank 19. At rank 22 it's still tough to make and it's commonly listed as a rank 25 recipe. The difficult part is finding a recipe for which you are certain the "optimal" rank listed is accurate.


If BG is to be believed, the rank gap is 10 levels. Also, in that same thread, testing was done to determine whether support offers a "rank level" bonus, enabling you to attempt synths earlier than the 10 rank range, and it was determined that it didn't.

However, that doesn't entirely disprove the idea that it may benefit synths that don't require it, however, I'm pretty doubtful myself, and based on my own experiences, it doesn't seem to help outside of ones that request it, however, I'm not very high and of course, it is anecdotal at best.

Linky 1

Linky 2

EDIT - Ooops, messed the links a bit, and linked the same thread twice. Corrected it now though!
Edited, Oct 25th 2010 7:13pm by ScorpionEx

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 10:12pm by ScorpionEx
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#49 Oct 25 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
Khornette wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


To be completely honest, I've wondered that myself. The thought occurred to me that maybe it's for the HQ gear that everyone is saying takes a "higher" craft skill to repair. (I don't think it takes higher, I just think it has a higher chance to fail, much like a recipe that recommends Common facilities has a higher chance to fail than a recipe of the same rank that doesn't have that recommendation.) And the reason I bring up that as an alternative purpose is not to say it proves or disproves anything. It's just that as long as my results suggest very strongly that the facility support makes no difference unless it's recommended by a recipe and there are rational alternative uses for things like support from the repair NPC, imma stick to my guns about the benefits of facility support until proven otherwise by hard numbers.


It does take higher to repair. The game wouldn't even allow me to attempt to repair the +1 willow wand I made at rank 15 Carp. "You decide to wait until you have a higher skill to attempt this..."

It let me do NQ willow wands though.


That is true, I couldn't repair Ash Macuahuitl +1 at r18 when I made it (it won't let me), but at r23 I can. The thing is, I forgot to try support to see if it let me repair it before r23, that may answer the question.


I couldn't repair a plumed bronze pickaxe +2 @ 14 but my friend could at 16. IIRC I could synth the pickaxe @ Weaver 11 so maybe it's a +5 ranks from synth to repair an HQ version.
#50 Oct 26 2010 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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The Glorious SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


To be completely honest, I've wondered that myself. The thought occurred to me that maybe it's for the HQ gear that everyone is saying takes a "higher" craft skill to repair. (I don't think it takes higher, I just think it has a higher chance to fail, much like a recipe that recommends Common facilities has a higher chance to fail than a recipe of the same rank that doesn't have that recommendation.) And the reason I bring up that as an alternative purpose is not to say it proves or disproves anything. It's just that as long as my results suggest very strongly that the facility support makes no difference unless it's recommended by a recipe and there are rational alternative uses for things like support from the repair NPC, imma stick to my guns about the benefits of facility support until proven otherwise by hard numbers.


It does take higher to repair. The game wouldn't even allow me to attempt to repair the +1 willow wand I made at rank 15 Carp. "You decide to wait until you have a higher skill to attempt this..."

It let me do NQ willow wands though.


That is true, I couldn't repair Ash Macuahuitl +1 at r18 when I made it (it won't let me), but at r23 I can. The thing is, I forgot to try support to see if it let me repair it before r23, that may answer the question.


I couldn't repair a plumed bronze pickaxe +2 @ 14 but my friend could at 16. IIRC I could synth the pickaxe @ Weaver 11 so maybe it's a +5 ranks from synth to repair an HQ version.


The Akua Aumoe is intimidated by the Leeloo brand Plumed Bronze Pickaxe+2's presence...
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#51 Oct 26 2010 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Fairly confident that guild support will only help when synthesizing something that require training (especially if you don't have it) and facility. It certainly does not virtually raises your rank. Case in point, I was making buffalo leather dye (a 29-30 recipe) at 25. My success rate is pretty much the same with or without the master support.
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