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Wind Shards & The EconomyFollow

#1 Oct 24 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay fellow ZAM members, help me out here. Maybe I am missing something.

Is it me, or are the crafting recipes completely unbalanced in terms of shard requirements. Wind Shards seem to be used ~70% of the time, which is why they are so highly sought out for and essentially, IMO, becoming the gil of this game. Nothing is traded more in this game or revolved around than Wind Shards. Could this be just a Besaid thing? I don't think so, but just asking for the sake of asking.

I can't seem to understand how this games economy and crafting system is so heavily dependant upon one particular item. This is not a healthy way to start up the games economy.

What are you thoughts on this? While I've seen the people gripe/complain/etc over this, it gets buried in the pile of the million other aggrivating things about this game. Just to be clear, not here to gripe over, just trying to understand if there is a reasoning, and if not, how do you guys deal with this issue?

It seems as if I should just say ***** it, farm wind shards all day and make a gazillion gil, then return to playing the game after it's nerfed/fixed/whateveryouwannacallit.

Thoughts? Opinions? I would love to see this question on the next "Ask a Dev Q&A"
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#2 Oct 24 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I put a bunch of elemental points into Wind, go mining La Noscea grade 1 points until I have a good store of Wind Shards. Then I craft whatever I want.
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#3 Oct 24 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I appreciate your post, and while that helps in terms of how to get more of them, it's like putting a band-aid on a bullet-wound.
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#4 Oct 24 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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Growing Pains.

In the long run, this may prove to be beneficial. Right now the economy is new, thus, resources haven't been allocated efficiently. Once people realize what's in demand, they will shift their focus to acquiring it more (should already be taking place for wind shards).

A perfect example of this is wind shards: Most gatherers will make their main elemental resistance wind to farm these things. I Know I'm already doing this (32 FSH as my main) and I've amassed some 2,400 wind shards on me atm (not counting the 1-2 thousand I've already sold) for the sole purpose of reselling (I don't craft). The only reason I've stored up this much is I'm unsure whether the price will go up further or not.

#5 Oct 24 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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The shards required by a recipe aren't chosen by SE at random. Every shard is associated with a particular effect it has on materials. Fire is heat/melt, earth is bond, water is dissolve, lightning is split/disintigrate, ice is solidify/congeal, and wind is cut. It makes sense that two of the most commonly used shards would be cut and bond. The difference/difficulty is that the shards we get (excluding resistance influence gathering yields) come from mobs that also are associated with specific kinds of shards. Landbound mammals tend to be earth and fire, airborn creatures ("cloudkin", including dodos) primarily wind and lightning, etc.

So what you end up with are items that drop for a reason and are used for a reason and it's only natural that some would be used more frequently than others. Wind shards are not all that hard to come by if you're making an effort to farm them. If you're just killing whatever you and/or your group wants to kill and not doing anything with the DoL classes, you put yourself at the mercy of the system.
#6 Oct 24 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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You two have made some great points.

As for farming them, I'll be quite honest here, at some point things need to be available to be bought. I mean, if every time I need a new item, or piece for something, or in this case, crystals, that I have to go level/craft/farm to get it, then there is no reason for this to be an MMO.

At some point, you need to rely on others. I've went down the path about as far as I am going to go on trying to get everything myself, do everything myself, and at this point, farming wind shards is out of the question.

It's unbalanced, like everything else.

This November/December update just can't come soon enough.
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#7 Oct 24 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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wind shards are a bit rare, but in no more demand than earth or fire seem to be. earth is the big one on fabul; everybody needs earth shards lately it seems.
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#8 Oct 24 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
It seems as if I should just say ***** it, farm wind shards all day and make a gazillion gil, then return to playing the game after it's nerfed/fixed/whateveryouwannacallit.
This. If you actually want to venture outside the sweatshop occasionally, selling crystals seems to be your best bet.

Aurelius wrote:
The shards required by a recipe aren't chosen by SE at random. Every shard is associated with a particular effect it has on materials... So what you end up with are items that drop for a reason and are used for a reason and it's only natural that some would be used more frequently than others.
I'll buy this, the ingame effects of certain crystals are obvious.

However... they WERE chosen by SE. Maybe not at random, but the crystals and elements and effects in this game are not absolutes and did not exist independently of SE's programming; FFXIV did not create itself. SE did that. They PURPOSEFULLY determined that Wind Shards would be more widely used than other shards, either through deliberate planning or negligence of crafting material balance.

They could just as easily have said 'lets make more recipes use ice shards and fewer use wind shards, you know, to balance it out'. They did not.


Edited, Oct 25th 2010 2:49am by Timorith
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#9 Oct 24 2010 at 9:08 PM Rating: Good
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Well they do have more recipe for different shards, it's just that Wind shard recipe typically tie-in with easy recipe that is good for skill up. That's where problem come from, 95% of your synth will be solely for the purpose of skilling up and nothing else.
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#10 Oct 24 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Timorith wrote:

However... they WERE chosen by SE. Maybe not at random, but the crystals and elements and effects in this game are not absolutes and did not exist independently of SE's programming; FFXIV did not create itself. SE did that. They PURPOSEFULLY determined that Wind Shards would be more widely used than other shards, either through deliberate planning or negligence of crafting material balance.

They could just as easily have said 'lets make more recipes use ice shards and fewer use wind shards, you know, to balance it out'. They did not.


They're using the same shard concept in XIV that they used for crystals in XI in terms of why they select certain shards for certain recipes. Wind shards aren't more widely used than other shards. I use more earth shards than anything else. Wind shards aren't readily available until you can start killing puk hatchlings and dodos unless you stack wind resistance and mine/log/fish for them. Earth shards drop off the majority of mobs you fight in the starting areas.

All shards can be bought. As with all things, it's a function of supply vs. demand. It's not that wind shards have the highest demand, it's that they have a lower supply than their demand provides for. That means that people charge more for them, and your alternative if you don't want to pay what they're asking is to farm your own.
#11 Oct 25 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Whatever. Next week or so when everyone is a little higher level it will shift to whatever shards are being used the most to create the next most popular items. At some point soon food will become a staple item and water and fire shards will become rare, etc.

It's going to take awhile for the markets to stabilize as people continue to gain levels and create and utilize new gear and items... not to mention grinding on higher levle mobs that drop different shard types in abundance.

The first few weeks it was all about Fire Crystals... now its Wind Shards, and soon enough it will be something else. Even in FFXI after the game had been out for many years there would be spikes in demand on certain type of crystals. It typically had to do with some new popular food items or other consumable that became high in demand of whatever. Sometimes it just had to do with a shift in the type of mobs that people partied on.

Supply and demand take care of it. If Wind shard prices get high enough everyone on the server will be farming them and prices will stabilize.
#12 Oct 25 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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According to YG:
Lightning Shards are used in 79 recipes.
Ice Shards are used in 95 recipes.
Water Shards are used in 187 recipes.
Fire Shards are used in 280 recipes.
Earth Shards are used in 1075 recipes.
Wind Shards are used in 1263 recipes.

Of course, this is only one source. Its possible that this info is incorrect and its very likely incomplete since all the recipes in the game haven't been discovered. However it currently seems that Wind Shards are used much more than any other type of shard. Whether this is intentional or coincidental remains to be seen.

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 3:01pm by Timorith
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#13 Oct 25 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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While I doubt that's 100% accurate, simply given the fact that we haven't discovered all recipes, it's accurate enough to a point to support my claim. And if that ration holds true, it's going to be a difficult ride for crafters who need Wind Shards for awhile.

Aurelies - yes, I could go farm them, but again, where does the line stop in terms of the player having to farm/supply every item they need. At what point have you done enough to where you should be able to rely on others to support your crafts.

Right now, it's a solo driven economy. Meaning, everything I need, I must farm / supply every single item. That's not an MMO.
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#14 Oct 25 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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wind shards are more in demand, so it makes sense they're going to be worth more. Fortunately they are almost as easy to farm as earth/fire, so yeah you're either going to want to focus your grinding on something that drops them, or be ready to spend.
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#15 Oct 25 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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is this turning into a give us an auction house thread? i'd support that =)
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#16 Oct 25 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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In Gridania wind shards are impossible to farm. There are all of 2 places where bees spawn near BentBranch and then only a couple areas that have bees / roselings near Emerald Moss.

Oh and caves spawn a bat like once every 30 minutes.

I gave up on Gridania and moved to LL. I go outside and kill puks and the wind shards rain down.

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#17 Oct 25 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Timorith wrote:
According to YG:
Lightning Shards are used in 79 recipes.
Ice Shards are used in 95 recipes.
Water Shards are used in 187 recipes.
Fire Shards are used in 280 recipes.
Earth Shards are used in 1075 recipes.
Wind Shards are used in 1263 recipes.

Of course, this is only one source. Its possible that this info is incorrect and its very likely incomplete since all the recipes in the game haven't been discovered. However it currently seems that Wind Shards are used much more than any other type of shard. Whether this is intentional or coincidental remains to be seen.

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 3:01pm by Timorith


i actually always run out of lightning because it takes like 6 for 1 synth of hempen yarn with moko grass... recently running out of earth shards and fire lightning crystals (are stronger monsters typically drop more crystals?)
#18 Oct 25 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Timorith wrote:
According to YG:
Lightning Shards are used in 79 recipes.
Ice Shards are used in 95 recipes.
Water Shards are used in 187 recipes.
Fire Shards are used in 280 recipes.
Earth Shards are used in 1075 recipes.
Wind Shards are used in 1263 recipes.

Of course, this is only one source. Its possible that this info is incorrect and its very likely incomplete since all the recipes in the game haven't been discovered. However it currently seems that Wind Shards are used much more than any other type of shard. Whether this is intentional or coincidental remains to be seen.


I think maybe you skipped over the part where I explained why certain shards are used more often than others. If you work in any kind of field that involves building things, you know that the lion's share of the process involves cutting things to certain sizes and/or shapes and then sticking them together somehow. Wind = cut. Earth = bind.

It's not like wind shards are hard to get once you get to about rank 10 or so with any DoW/DoM/DoL class. 2 ranks of Thaumaturge netted me over 1000 wind shards. Mobs don't charge more for shards because everyone wants that particular kind, and neither do trees, rock formations, or bodies of water.

It's an MMO. Farming items to use or sell is and probably always will be a significant activity. If you don't want to pay what people are asking, you farm your own. SE has said that they're revamping the shard/crystal system and that the increase in holding capacity to 9999 was a temporary measure for the time being. Exactly what it is they're doing with the system they didn't say. I guess I just don't understand all the hullabaloo. It's not like people complaining that they have to farm the things they want/need instead of being able to buy them cheap and easy is exclusive to FFXIV, but it's a tired old kvetch that's not likely ever going to see a resolution.
#19 Oct 25 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Right now, it's a solo driven economy. Meaning, everything I need, I must farm / supply every single item. That's not an MMO.


What exactly is your definition of a MMO? I get the feeling SE wants players to rely less on AH and hence this market ward came about. Do I like it? NO. It is what it is and as someone else pointed out, supply-n-demand will fix this issue sooner or later...although I would still like an AH but that's a beaten topic.

You'll either have a lot of players farming wind shard as a source of income and oversupply the demand or do exactly what you hate, farm the shards themselves to be self-efficient or quit the game until it's fixed. I find it hard to believe wind shard [or any elemental shard] can drive the entire economy long term. You aren't even taking into the account that everyone are just crafting at the same time and driving up the demand???

BTW, IMHO, this thread is like borderline laziness. I get you don't want to farm the item but don't make it sound like the world is out to get you and hence this makes the game less "MMO"...

#20 Oct 25 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Why do you think gilsellers focus on farming wind shards?
#21 Oct 25 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Default
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelies - yes, I could go farm them, but again, where does the line stop in terms of the player having to farm/supply every item they need. At what point have you done enough to where you should be able to rely on others to support your crafts.


Whose craft ranks are they? Yours or theirs? At what point are you entitled to an easy ride to all of the things you want? Since when is everyone expected to go out farming for you? I won't pay more than 250gil for a shard, I don't care what kind it is. And that means if I can't find what I need for a price I'm willing to pay, I go farming. Occasionally I get a lucky break and find some generous soul selling well below market rates and it makes me happy. I never have a hard time finding wind shards in any trader's ward. The only problem I ever have is that most people are charging more than I'm willing to spend. That, however, is not to say that I couldn't pay what they're asking and still turn a profit off the finished goods. My issue is that I buy large quantities of shards (when the price is right) so that I can synth in large quantities and push through ranks and if I'm not careful I can wind up broke with not but a ton of shards and unfinished mats in my bags.

Quote:
Right now, it's a solo driven economy. Meaning, everything I need, I must farm / supply every single item. That's not an MMO.


Stop using absolutes to define your own choices. You choose to farm/supply every single item because you choose not to pay what other people or asking or you choose not to spend the time poking around in market wards for what you "need".

It's also a new MMO with an economy that is developing. People seem to forget on a regular basis that things will be very different even 3 months from now. Wind shards will probably still be in high demand, but a lot of other things will be more accessible.
#22 Oct 25 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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rikkuotaku wrote:
In Gridania wind shards are impossible to farm. There are all of 2 places where bees spawn near BentBranch and then only a couple areas that have bees / roselings near Emerald Moss.

Oh and caves spawn a bat like once every 30 minutes.

I gave up on Gridania and moved to LL. I go outside and kill puks and the wind shards rain down.




There are puks in the black shroud... they are just higher level. Also Coerthas has tons of puks
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#23 Oct 25 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

It's also a new MMO with an economy that is developing. People seem to forget on a regular basis that things will be very different even 3 months from now. Wind shards will probably still be in high demand, but a lot of other things will be more accessible.


Yeah, like crafting tools - the price of most of them are plummeting - got a level 12 goldsmith hammer for 15K the other day... I am only level 10... so I will get to R12 with my R7 hammer, put it up in my bazaar for a fix, then sell it for peanuts... I sold my last two "gently used" alembics for way less than I bought them for - just to clear them out of my inventory and to help the community out.

In fact I've noticed that most crafted goods have come down in price quite a bit - only a few things (higher level glues for example) are still crazy priced - but as more crafters get up in level those too will fall, and then the things that use those components will fall in price etc.

Some mats are still stupid rare (I never see pine branches or viscious secretions sold for example - or blue landtrap leaves or bat fangs)
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#24 Oct 25 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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You all just keep coming back to me when you need shards ^^

I sell them cheap as can be and nurf my own leveling in order to maximize shard gain
meaning I blast mobs into oblivian fast and quick to amass shards in ridiculous quantities
I make 1K+ shards in an evenning and its easy as pie.

if ur on figaro and like shards priced from 150-90 gil depending on the shard
and >2k for crystals hit me up.


I am just making as much money as possible now bc once the items from nm's start rolling in wanna be ready
and DoL is like christmas if you need those raw mats.


Also if you need logs I sell those cheap :)

My conjurer needs gil and gear and I have all the goods you need :)

woot woot forum marketing ha ha ha ha

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 2:39pm by Speeral
#25 Oct 25 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I haven't bought wind shards for carpentry since i did that raise the elemental resistant thing a few weeks ago.The occasional 10k on lightning shards for weaving is where my money go now.
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#26 Oct 25 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Timorith wrote:
According to YG:
Lightning Shards are used in 79 recipes.
Ice Shards are used in 95 recipes.
Water Shards are used in 187 recipes.
Fire Shards are used in 280 recipes.
Earth Shards are used in 1075 recipes.
Wind Shards are used in 1263 recipes.

Of course, this is only one source. Its possible that this info is incorrect and its very likely incomplete since all the recipes in the game haven't been discovered. However it currently seems that Wind Shards are used much more than any other type of shard. Whether this is intentional or coincidental remains to be seen.
This. The problem associated with this imbalance is the fact that wind shards don't drop in proportion with the same frequency that they're used. They're relatively rare. Earth shards are also extremely common synth materials, but they're also very easy to find, so the problem isn't as noticeable.

What worries me is that this is intentional. SE may be using this as an artificial timesink, to make crafting a slower process because the most common crafting material is harder to come by. Particularly because of how essential crafting is to the entire economy.



Edited, Oct 25th 2010 3:18pm by bsphil
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#27 Oct 25 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelies - yes, I could go farm them, but again, where does the line stop in terms of the player having to farm/supply every item they need. At what point have you done enough to where you should be able to rely on others to support your crafts.


Whose craft ranks are they? Yours or theirs? At what point are you entitled to an easy ride to all of the things you want? Since when is everyone expected to go out farming for you? I won't pay more than 250gil for a shard, I don't care what kind it is. And that means if I can't find what I need for a price I'm willing to pay, I go farming. Occasionally I get a lucky break and find some generous soul selling well below market rates and it makes me happy. I never have a hard time finding wind shards in any trader's ward. The only problem I ever have is that most people are charging more than I'm willing to spend. That, however, is not to say that I couldn't pay what they're asking and still turn a profit off the finished goods. My issue is that I buy large quantities of shards (when the price is right) so that I can synth in large quantities and push through ranks and if I'm not careful I can wind up broke with not but a ton of shards and unfinished mats in my bags.

Quote:
Right now, it's a solo driven economy. Meaning, everything I need, I must farm / supply every single item. That's not an MMO.


Stop using absolutes to define your own choices. You choose to farm/supply every single item because you choose not to pay what other people or asking or you choose not to spend the time poking around in market wards for what you "need".

It's also a new MMO with an economy that is developing. People seem to forget on a regular basis that things will be very different even 3 months from now. Wind shards will probably still be in high demand, but a lot of other things will be more accessible.


Not trying to be a jerk here, but don't put words in my mouth. I've read a lot of your posts lately, and for some reason, you've chosen to defend this games flaws quite too often.

Who said I haven't tried for DAYS doing shouts for Wind Shards? Where in my post did I say I wasn't willing to buy them? Am I willing to buy them for 300-400 gil a piece, absolutely not. And since that's what people are trying to charge on Besaid, if you can even find them at all, because I have in fact been shouting for two days for them. At some point, I've farmed and made my way through so many obstacles. At this point, I'm starting to ask myself, like bsphill pointed out (thank you very much) that why should I needlessly waste my time doing that.

The games economy works on a cycle. Yes, the game is new, and the cycle is not quite formed yet, but this is getting absurd. There is no cycle, it's me, as an individual player, farm every item, level every craft, farm every item to level every craft, all by myself. Again, I've done all of this for everything so far, but now having to go farm crystals is irritating. This is compounded by the ratio at which Wind Shards are excessively used. And to bring a real life example into this is just completely dumb, Aurelies. This is a fantasy MMO, not RL.

And no, I am not lazy, I'm willing to do most things within reason. I won't be convinced that this system is "working as intended".

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 5:28pm by KnocturnalOne

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 5:31pm by KnocturnalOne
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#28 Oct 25 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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I actually think this is a good thing, since it gives low-levels an opportunity to do something to make gil. Wind and earth shards are the moat carp of FFXIV. And since there are almost no vendors of basic gear other than weathered gear, having a source of gil is really important to new players.
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#29 Oct 25 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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There are plenty of sources for GIL, GIL is rather common in this game lol. Wind Shards are the new gil, IMO (I'm exaggerating a tad, but, it could happen :p )
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#30 Oct 25 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I think its great for starters absolutely, it keeps the gil flowing for those grinding many starting ranks.

Keeping a good inventory of shards if you're not crafting is certainly important.

I hate to say it but it seems almost intentional to have the system as is. keeps farming
these basic items I cannot stress how great of a resource it is. You can get these items relatively
easily.

I spend most of my time in the LL area just gathering wind, fire, earth, and lightning shards and
crystals can make 60-100k a night just doing this.

Add raw and logs and you have a very stable gil source. In XI so many complained money was to hard
now people are going to complain its to easy?
#31 Oct 25 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelies - yes, I could go farm them, but again, where does the line stop in terms of the player having to farm/supply every item they need. At what point have you done enough to where you should be able to rely on others to support your crafts.


Whose craft ranks are they? Yours or theirs? At what point are you entitled to an easy ride to all of the things you want? Since when is everyone expected to go out farming for you? I won't pay more than 250gil for a shard, I don't care what kind it is. And that means if I can't find what I need for a price I'm willing to pay, I go farming. Occasionally I get a lucky break and find some generous soul selling well below market rates and it makes me happy. I never have a hard time finding wind shards in any trader's ward. The only problem I ever have is that most people are charging more than I'm willing to spend. That, however, is not to say that I couldn't pay what they're asking and still turn a profit off the finished goods. My issue is that I buy large quantities of shards (when the price is right) so that I can synth in large quantities and push through ranks and if I'm not careful I can wind up broke with not but a ton of shards and unfinished mats in my bags.

Quote:
Right now, it's a solo driven economy. Meaning, everything I need, I must farm / supply every single item. That's not an MMO.


Stop using absolutes to define your own choices. You choose to farm/supply every single item because you choose not to pay what other people or asking or you choose not to spend the time poking around in market wards for what you "need".

It's also a new MMO with an economy that is developing. People seem to forget on a regular basis that things will be very different even 3 months from now. Wind shards will probably still be in high demand, but a lot of other things will be more accessible.


Not trying to be a jerk here, but don't put words in my mouth. I've read a lot of your posts lately, and for some reason, you've chosen to defend this games flaws quite too often.

Who said I haven't tried for DAYS doing shouts for Wind Shards? Where in my post did I say I wasn't willing to buy them? Am I willing to buy them for 300-400 gil a piece, absolutely not. And since that's what people are trying to charge on Besaid, if you can even find them at all, because I have in fact been shouting for two days for them. At some point, I've farmed and made my way through so many obstacles. At this point, I'm starting to ask myself, like bsphill pointed out (thank you very much) that why should I needlessly waste my time doing that.

The games economy works on a cycle. Yes, the game is new, and the cycle is not quite formed yet, but this is getting absurd. There is no cycle, it's me, as an individual player, farm every item, level every craft, farm every item to level every craft, all by myself. Again, I've done all of this for everything so far, but now having to go farm crystals is irritating. This is compounded by the ratio at which Wind Shards are excessively used. And to bring a real life example into this is just completely dumb, Aurelies. This is a fantasy MMO, not RL.

And no, I am not lazy, I'm willing to do most things within reason. I won't be convinced that this system is "working as intended".

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 5:28pm by KnocturnalOne

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 5:31pm by KnocturnalOne


I rely on my LS and occasional other people I know for Wind Shards, I haven't taken up any DoL for farming windshard, I rarely grind as DoW and still it's enough so far. We need more cooperation between people, but the game does make it very VERY hard to achieve this, with mailing system or LS storage comes to mind. Take windshard for instance, this can be solved by the very simple task of breaking Wind Cluster into Crystal and then into Shards, I'm having like 5 Cluster right now and that's thousands of shard possible. But I can't, because that needs a r30+ Alchemist, and because this game right now does not offer much way for cooperation, I can't find one outside my LS and within my LS there isn't one either. Maybe, just maybe, they should add a bazaar option that instead of Selling/Buying items, it's OFFERING SERVICE.
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#32 Oct 25 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Default
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KnocturnalOne wrote:

Not trying to be a jerk here, but don't put words in my mouth. I've read a lot of your posts lately, and for some reason, you've chosen to defend this games flaws quite too often.


Timely edit. If you had left it as "every thread" I was going to have to mock you. What I've been advocating is patience, and as a point of fact mine has very nearly run out and my account has been canceled pending a patch that demonstrates SE is putting fun ahead of punishment and barriers at the hands of random systems. But that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with every kvetch that some numpty lobs into the conversation, and frankly this isn't the first time this type of topic has come up in my 8-9 years of MMO gaming. There's always someone who feels that they have an entitlement to have everyone else farm what they need and then sell it at rock bottom prices and if that doesn't happen, they label the game as broken.

You wasted two days standing around shouting for someone to sell you what you wanted at a price you were willing to pay because you didn't want to go farming. It's like the doorknobs that used to stand around in Bastok for an hour and a half spamming for a Tele-Dem and then whining that no mages were on tele-texi duty. If they had just got off their rumpty dumpty and hauled their own lazy *** out of town on foot they could have been there and back by the time they started whining.

Rank 16-18 on THM netted me 1000+ wind shards. And by the time I'm done converting the crystals I got from that same span of time into shards, the total will be closer to 1500-1700.

You should "needlessly waste your time" getting the things you need on your own because the rest of the players in the game are neither your slaves nor your employees. They get what they get and you get what you get and if you can reach a mutually agreeable arrangement to trade, awesome. If not, you're on your own.
#33 Oct 25 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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For someone as intelligent as yourself, your reading comprehension lacks just a little.

Again, where did I say I was "WASTED" two days shouting for shards? Do you think that I am not smart enough to go do something else with my time? Do you really think I stood around in L.L. or hoping from city to city shouting? No! I did other things, I grinded on my Conjurer, I did leves for other lower level crafts, all the while shouting for Wind Shards. When going to other cities for more leves, I SPENT AN HOUR searching through bazaars (no, I am not turning this into an AH debate) looking for some for sale. My god, you even had to bold it for emphasis.

Seriously, get off your high horse.

Edit - I am not saying that you have to agree with me, again, you raise some valid points, but these concerns are legitimate, they are just over shadowed by all of the other glaring issues.

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 6:30pm by KnocturnalOne

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 6:30pm by KnocturnalOne
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#34Aurelius, Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Way to dance around the issue, sport. You didn't say you wasted two days shouting for shards, I said it. The point is, you spent two days trying to get shards your way and came up empty. So that must mean the game is broken, amirite?
#35 Oct 25 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

yet I can stop by any DoH guild in any city during peak hours and struggle to find floor space to set up and do my thing.


lol, except the culinarian guild... I stopped by there recently hoping to give away some fruit I harvested and there was not 1 PC there.
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#36 Oct 25 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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If you really want to do crafting using your own materials, it's just a better idea to get such materials through either farming or from friends (say a group of three friends who split up the crafts between them so they can trade materials. You save a lot of money that way, rather than paying the high prices for different materials. If you don't want to spend the time gathering materials, then for now it'd be best to just level crafts through leves.
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#37 Oct 25 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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Gadhelyn wrote:
If you really want to do crafting using your own materials, it's just a better idea to get such materials through either farming or from friends (say a group of three friends who split up the crafts between them so they can trade materials. You save a lot of money that way, rather than paying the high prices for different materials. If you don't want to spend the time gathering materials, then for now it'd be best to just level crafts through leves.


Yep, I gave a blacksmith a bunch of mats... and later on he gave me a bunch of salt... I help people whenever I can and in return people help me.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#38 Oct 25 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm having like 5 Cluster right now and that's thousands of shard possible. But I can't, because that needs a r30+ Alchemist


Not to start anything but this is kinda a "duh" in a brand new game. At the start of every new game there will be things that are untainable or difficult based solely on the fact that people haven't progressed far enough to make it a normal commodity. Breaking down Wind clusters --> crystals --> shards is going to be rare simply because there are few who have excelled quickly enough to make this common. Your statement hinges on the concept that this game will stay in the current state that it is forever, which simply won't happen.

Give the game time, things will iron themselves out. People will eventually be able to provide those services and make the burden easier. New game /= instant gratification.

~Skye
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#39 Oct 25 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I completely understand what everyone is saying. The problem lies in the fact that the ratio of recipes requiring wind shards is excessively high. The problem wouldn't be as exacerbated if that wasn't the case.

That being said, I will agree, I don't think it will stay this way forever.
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#40 Oct 25 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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SkyeAyatari wrote:
Not to start anything but this is kinda a "duh" in a brand new game. At the start of every new game there will be things that are untainable or difficult based solely on the fact that people haven't progressed far enough to make it a normal commodity. Breaking down Wind clusters --> crystals --> shards is going to be rare simply because there are few who have excelled quickly enough to make this common. Your statement hinges on the concept that this game will stay in the current state that it is forever, which simply won't happen.


You could be very correct, the game's landscape and economy will change with progression, but with this current system in place I see the possibility of huge collapse once that point of progression has been reached.

To make any items worth using for your current DoW/DoM your crafts need to be at least 10 levels higher than your battle class. To get those crafting levels you need the all important shards, which are a common drop from mobs. We see a shortage in shards because of the perceived importance of crafting in this game, meaning that more people are leveling up a craft to make them gil or gear instead of leveling up a job to get them gear and gil (gear through quest rewards, etc common in most MMOs is not common in XIV). With this imbalance of crafters to adventurers there will never be enough supply, well until that point of progression is reached.

So, what does that leave us with? Currently we have a shortage of crystals/shards and a surplus of people crafting to cap. Soon we'll have all these crafters maxing out and not buying near the same amount of shards as during leveling.

Unfortunately with this current system buyer and seller are not easily linked, so the chances of a lvl 10 DoW finding his new weapon and armor requires a lot of work, either in the form of you artificially increasing the demand for shards (i.e. leveling a craft) or spending hours browsing market wards. I know the new system will help some, but the fact of the matter is by the time the new system rolls around the economy is going to have no form of currency (we can see gil has been pretty much devalued at an early stage in the game). Soon enough we will have crafters going out to adventure and flooding the market with more shards and crystals than can be used. And since they are already leveled the need for new crafters will be minimal. It really doesn't help that Gil has been so greatly devalued at such an early stage in this game because it lessens the ability for the games economy to recover from this huge influx we will be seeing shortly.

Edited, Oct 25th 2010 7:44pm by burtonsnow
#41 Oct 25 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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SkyeAyatari wrote:
Quote:
I'm having like 5 Cluster right now and that's thousands of shard possible. But I can't, because that needs a r30+ Alchemist


Not to start anything but this is kinda a "duh" in a brand new game. At the start of every new game there will be things that are untainable or difficult based solely on the fact that people haven't progressed far enough to make it a normal commodity. Breaking down Wind clusters --> crystals --> shards is going to be rare simply because there are few who have excelled quickly enough to make this common. Your statement hinges on the concept that this game will stay in the current state that it is forever, which simply won't happen.

Give the game time, things will iron themselves out. People will eventually be able to provide those services and make the burden easier. New game /= instant gratification.

~Skye


Well the problem isn't that the service is unavailable, it's that there is no good way to seek the service. Take player repair for instance, it would be a lot better to have the player setting up a bazaar that automatically provide repair service with certain type of material, until they ran out of material. For example I set up a bazaar with repair 30 Brass Nugget and 30 Silver Nugget, people can just come in and repair their accessories as conveniently as doing it with the NPC (well not really), instead of people have to put up their accessories in bazaar and stand around all day that MAYBE some Goldsmith come around and repair them, or have to level their GLD to repair themselves.
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#42 Oct 25 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:


Rank 16-18 on THM netted me 1000+ wind shards. And by the time I'm done converting the crystals I got from that same span of time into shards, the total will be closer to 1500-1700.



I went through 4200 wind shards on Sunday alone. Along with earth they are used in a vast majority of synths. I've had the same 800 water and ice shards since the first week of the game. But wind and earth....those are like pure gold. And since wind drops far less frequently there is a major shortage.


I have wind set as my elemental choice for HELM. And I've done my fair share of mining, fishing, and botony. But NOTHING you can do (short of putting your crafting on hold) will allow you to keep up with the amount of wind and earth crystals you will need. You will eventually be FORCED to buy them if you don't want to be left behind. And competing with 99999 other crafters for the most widely used shard when it also happens to be the shard with the lowest droprate based on how many mobs drop it is kinda foolish.
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#43 Oct 25 2010 at 6:07 PM Rating: Default
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BarberofSeville wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


Rank 16-18 on THM netted me 1000+ wind shards. And by the time I'm done converting the crystals I got from that same span of time into shards, the total will be closer to 1500-1700.



I went through 4200 wind shards on Sunday alone. Along with earth they are used in a vast majority of synths. I've had the same 800 water and ice shards since the first week of the game. But wind and earth....those are like pure gold. And since wind drops far less frequently there is a major shortage.


I have wind set as my elemental choice for HELM. And I've done my fair share of mining, fishing, and botony. But NOTHING you can do (short of putting your crafting on hold) will allow you to keep up with the amount of wind and earth crystals you will need. You will eventually be FORCED to buy them if you don't want to be left behind. And competing with 99999 other crafters for the most widely used shard when it also happens to be the shard with the lowest droprate based on how many mobs drop it is kinda foolish.


Amen brother!
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#44Gadhelyn, Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 6:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Um, how'd you go through 4,200 shards in one day? I mean, seriously, even if you used nothing but 6 shard recipes, and assuming it takes no more than a minute to select the items you need, confirm the recipe, and actually perform the synth, that's almost 12 hours straight. Someone's gotta get out of the house and get some.
#45 Oct 25 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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BarberofSeville wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


Rank 16-18 on THM netted me 1000+ wind shards. And by the time I'm done converting the crystals I got from that same span of time into shards, the total will be closer to 1500-1700.



I went through 4200 wind shards on Sunday alone. Along with earth they are used in a vast majority of synths. I've had the same 800 water and ice shards since the first week of the game. But wind and earth....those are like pure gold. And since wind drops far less frequently there is a major shortage.


And how many hours of crafting was that? 4? 6? More?

Wind shards don't drop less frequently. There are mobs in every zone that drop wind shards. La Noscea has it better than all of them and is also the zone that defaults to dropping wind shards from DoL gathering, but on a kill per kill basis you've got just as much chance of getting wind shards off a puk hatchling as you do earth shards of a star marmot.

Anyone remember leatherworking in FFXI? I sure hope you liked Ronfaure and funguars because that was pretty much all you had for dark crystals excluding the AH. THAT was broken. That was an entire crafting profession that relied in very large part on a particular type of crystal that only dropped from an extremely limited selection of mobs in a very limited selection of zones until you were of a considerably higher level.

Take a look at how many skill points and, in particular, how much xp you earn on your DoH class for every successful synth. Doesn't that tell you something? People are trying to power level crafting. Guess what? Power leveling a craft in any MMO I have ever played has always carried with it a high cost. If you farm your own goods you can all but eliminate the cost but it takes much longer. If you don't want to farm your own goods, you pay out the *** for other people to farm it for you.

Quote:
I have wind set as my elemental choice for HELM. And I've done my fair share of mining, fishing, and botony. But NOTHING you can do (short of putting your crafting on hold) will allow you to keep up with the amount of wind and earth crystals you will need. You will eventually be FORCED to buy them if you don't want to be left behind. And competing with 99999 other crafters for the most widely used shard when it also happens to be the shard with the lowest droprate based on how many mobs drop it is kinda foolish.


Again, you're paying the price for power leveling. You're choosing to compete with other people for the supply of shards other players are able/willing to provide. If it bothers you, you have alternatives.
#46 Oct 25 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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Gadhelyn wrote:
BarberofSeville wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


Rank 16-18 on THM netted me 1000+ wind shards. And by the time I'm done converting the crystals I got from that same span of time into shards, the total will be closer to 1500-1700.



I went through 4200 wind shards on Sunday alone. Along with earth they are used in a vast majority of synths. I've had the same 800 water and ice shards since the first week of the game. But wind and earth....those are like pure gold. And since wind drops far less frequently there is a major shortage.


I have wind set as my elemental choice for HELM. And I've done my fair share of mining, fishing, and botony. But NOTHING you can do (short of putting your crafting on hold) will allow you to keep up with the amount of wind and earth crystals you will need. You will eventually be FORCED to buy them if you don't want to be left behind. And competing with 99999 other crafters for the most widely used shard when it also happens to be the shard with the lowest droprate based on how many mobs drop it is kinda foolish.


Um, how'd you go through 4,200 shards in one day? I mean, seriously, even if you used nothing but 6 shard recipes, and assuming it takes no more than a minute to select the items you need, confirm the recipe, and actually perform the synth, that's almost 12 hours straight. Someone's gotta get out of the house and get some.


Arrow heads eat 12 Wind Shard, Silver Ring eat 8 Wind Shard, Gem Rings eat 10 Wind Shard etc. and I'm not counting the Fire shards/others. Luckily I'm a cheapskate and I won't use more than 500-600 a day >_>
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#47 Oct 25 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Again, you're paying the price for power leveling. You're choosing to compete with other people for the supply of shards other players are able/willing to provide. If it bothers you, you have alternatives.


I've said it earlier, this method of powerleveling crafting that everyone is doing is seriously going to affect the economy of shards in the very near future.
#48 Oct 25 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Default
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burtonsnow wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Again, you're paying the price for power leveling. You're choosing to compete with other people for the supply of shards other players are able/willing to provide. If it bothers you, you have alternatives.


I've said it earlier, this method of powerleveling crafting that everyone is doing is seriously going to affect the economy of shards in the very near future.


I agree, but it's unavoidable. Not everyone gung ho about crafting right now is going to make it to the cap. It gets pretty painful and tedious after a while, not to mention the challenges associated with keeping shards stocked if you're not willing to farm them yourself. Only the people on the very cutting edge of progression are going to be able to demand the kind of gil that would warrant spending what a lot of people are asking for shards. Everyone else is going to hit a wall and they're either going to slow down or stop altogether. The game has been out for just over a month and already people are approaching the cap with DoH professions and people have been at the physical level cap for a week or more because of DoH professions. If it's to be treated as a race, you have to be willing to pay the price to keep up with the front runners or you have to be prepared to fall behind.

I was near the cutting edge on my server for the first 2-3 weeks of service and then I just couldn't do it anymore. I had the shards. I have plenty of mats. (Plenty...as in...holy **** lots). I just don't have the inclination to sit down and grind out a couple hundred recipes/rank right now. And I'm okay with that. I finally got back to playing my gladiator...something I had put off entirely during the first few days of CE service while I worked on support classes and crafting. I love it. And in a few more ranks I'll be able to move into zones I've never even been to like Coerthas and grind some of that area's lower level offerings just for ***** and giggles.

If I wasn't so discouraged by SE's approach to random systems right now, I'd be really enthusiastic about the future. November's update will be very key for me, but the things I feel SE isn't doing right at this point are things that they did in FFXI that drove me out. And trying to tune the game to ease the supply vs. demand curve for crafting powerlevelers is not one of those things I personally think they did wrong.
#49Dartagon, Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 8:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This thread is full of fail.
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