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Maintenance on All Worlds (Oct. 28)Follow

#1 Oct 26 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
At the following time period, we will be performing maintenance on all Worlds. During this period, FINAL FANTASY XIV will be unavailable.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and thank you for your understanding.

[Date & Time]
Oct. 28, 2010 from 00:00 to 02:00 (PDT)
* Maintenance completion time may be subject to change.

[Affected Service]
FINAL FANTASY XIV
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#2 Oct 27 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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845 posts
Wonder why they cant fill us in on what they are changing, not telling us is so 2003.
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#3 Oct 27 2010 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
theyll tell us. after.. hheh
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#4 Oct 27 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Excellent
More ninja fixes!

I'm guessing it's more slight improvements/adjustments, and maybe a couple of bug fixes.
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#5 Oct 27 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Wonder why they cant fill us in on what they are changing, not telling us is so 2003.


"We are going to nerf a drop rate for item X because too many are being generated to the economy."

If you don't see the implications of what saying that would cause, maybe you should stop breathing.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#6 Oct 27 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Default
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It makes sense to wait until they actually start the maintenance to give info on patch updates like these... Any large company like SE would do the same. Stuff changes way too often and quickly to be able to accurately post them prior to the patch. By waiting til the patch is released, they're not making any promises they can't keep, and they're not setting themselves up for failure if they're not able to complete the desired changes in time.
#7 Oct 27 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Decent
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845 posts
Eldonia wrote:
It makes sense to wait until they actually start the maintenance to give info on patch updates like these... Any large company like SE would do the same. Stuff changes way too often and quickly to be able to accurately post them prior to the patch. By waiting til the patch is released, they're not making any promises they can't keep, and they're not setting themselves up for failure if they're not able to complete the desired changes in time.


Well the largest MMO maker out there disagrees with you. Wow patch notes are known ahead of time BUT that game has a great dev team and wonderful customer support.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 3:34am by UncleRuckusForLife
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#8 Oct 27 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Well the largest MMO maker out there disagrees with you. Wow patch notes are known ahead of time BUT that game has a great dev team and wonderful customer support.


Sounds like that game is simple enough not to be abused by it's players.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#9 Oct 27 2010 at 1:36 AM Rating: Decent
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845 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Wonder why they cant fill us in on what they are changing, not telling us is so 2003.


"We are going to nerf a drop rate for item X because too many are being generated to the economy."

If you don't see the implications of what saying that would cause, maybe you should stop breathing.


Blizzard releases patch notes ahead of time. World of warcraft is the largest most successful MMO in the history of MMOs. If you cant see how transparency has helped them get where they are maybe YOU should quit breathing.
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#10 Oct 27 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Blizzard releases patch notes ahead of time. World of warcraft is the largest most successful MMO in the history of MMOs. If you cant see how transparency has helped them get where they are maybe YOU should quit breathing.


Yes. "Become successful by not making MMO's" is what I've realized from looking at them.

And transparency does jack **** for them. If the game was bad it wouldn't be played regardless of it's transparency, end of story. It's real merits are somewhere else.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#11 Oct 27 2010 at 1:51 AM Rating: Good
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4,145 posts
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Wonder why they cant fill us in on what they are changing, not telling us is so 2003.


"We are going to nerf a drop rate for item X because too many are being generated to the economy."

If you don't see the implications of what saying that would cause, maybe you should stop breathing.


Blizzard releases patch notes ahead of time. World of warcraft is the largest most successful MMO in the history of MMOs. If you cant see how transparency has helped them get where they are maybe YOU should quit breathing.


Don't stop there. They go far beyond just transparency. They allow people to beta test the changes for the updates to avoid the "nerf drop rate for item X" altogether. They actually take the time to respond to players on key issues like raid balance, PvP balance and other issues completely unrelated to sh*t that would normally be in the @#%^ing manual.


Edited, Oct 27th 2010 3:51am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#12 Oct 27 2010 at 1:58 AM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Don't stop there. They go far beyond just transparency. They allow people to beta test the changes for the updates to avoid the "nerf drop rate for item X" altogether. They actually take the time to respond to players on key issues like raid balance, PvP balance and other issues completely unrelated to sh*t that would normally be in the @#%^ing manual.


Yeah, I'm sure they don't need to have emergency maintenances to fix **** from the Beta. I'm sure.

I bet it is also fun to know exactly what is in the update months ahead of time so you won't die from the heart attack the surprise caused you. If it's not predictable and boring it's bad, m'kay?
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#13 Oct 27 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:

Well the largest MMO maker out there disagrees with you. Wow patch notes are known ahead of time BUT that game has a great dev team and wonderful customer support.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 3:34am by UncleRuckusForLife


lol, never heard so much bs....
im german, so i can only tell you how the customer support in germany is and its awful, to know what is in the patch doesnt make wow any better, just look in the forums and everywhere is a bunch of flamethreads at any given time....

beside that fact you're comparing an brand new game with a game developed years ago, just compare ffxi with wow and you see which game is running better technicaly wise...ffxi

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 10:38am by Pyrorebirth
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#14 Oct 27 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Decent
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845 posts
Pyrorebirth wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:

Well the largest MMO maker out there disagrees with you. Wow patch notes are known ahead of time BUT that game has a great dev team and wonderful customer support.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 3:34am by UncleRuckusForLife


lol, never heard so much bs....
im german, so i can only tell you how the customer support in germany is and its awful, to know what is in the patch doesnt make wow any better, just look in the forums and everywhere is a bunch of flamethreads at any given time....

beside that fact you're comparing an brand new game with a game developed years ago, just compare ffxi with wow and you see which game is running better technicaly wise...ffxi

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 10:38am by Pyrorebirth


I am comparing a seasoned dev team to a seasoned dev team. Blizzard devs win hands down.
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#15 Oct 27 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Good
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4,145 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Don't stop there. They go far beyond just transparency. They allow people to beta test the changes for the updates to avoid the "nerf drop rate for item X" altogether. They actually take the time to respond to players on key issues like raid balance, PvP balance and other issues completely unrelated to sh*t that would normally be in the @#%^ing manual.


Yeah, I'm sure they don't need to have emergency maintenances to fix sh*t from the Beta. I'm sure.

I bet it is also fun to know exactly what is in the update months ahead of time so you won't die from the heart attack the surprise caused you. If it's not predictable and boring it's bad, m'kay?


They have less maintenance after a major update than I have ever witnessed with FFXI, so I'd imagine it's more of the same for FFXIV. If you don't want to know then you don't have to read the update notes or test the changes in the beta. I will say that the first time you hear about anything it's a surprise. Doesn't matter if you hear about it the day of the changes, the day before or the week before, m'kay?
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#16 Oct 27 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
They have less maintenance after a major update than I have ever witnessed with FFXI, so I'd imagine it's more of the same for FFXIV. If you don't want to know then you don't have to read the update notes or test the changes in the beta. I will say that the first time you hear about anything it's a surprise. Doesn't matter if you hear about it the day of the changes, the day before or the week before, m'kay?


That's a good thing, considering they have a maintenance every week. It would be quite pathetic otherwise.

Is the beta always under NDA or why do you only hear about it a week before?

And yeah lol, if the update notes are there of course I'll read them. Just like so many people bought XIV knowing it's not good enough. We do things knowing it may not be the most rational choice for us all the time.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 8:48am by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#17 Oct 27 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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228 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Don't stop there. They go far beyond just transparency. They allow people to beta test the changes for the updates to avoid the "nerf drop rate for item X" altogether. They actually take the time to respond to players on key issues like raid balance, PvP balance and other issues completely unrelated to sh*t that would normally be in the @#%^ing manual.


Yeah, I'm sure they don't need to have emergency maintenances to fix sh*t from the Beta. I'm sure.

I bet it is also fun to know exactly what is in the update months ahead of time so you won't die from the heart attack the surprise caused you. If it's not predictable and boring it's bad, m'kay?


WoW patch days are buggy, crash ridden messes that tend to go on for several days after wards. If it's a big patch, like say the 4.0 pre-cataclysm patch that's coming up (or is it out? I didn't keep track) you can expect unstable servers (of varying degrees) for at least a couple weeks. That said, they do always seem to get things ironed out and playable in a (somewhat) reasonable time frame. Though tbh I'm not a fan of the amount of maintenance they go through each Tuesday.

Also, having the patch notes out ahead of time doesn't make it boring at all, it fosters discussion about the changes and their use of a Public Test Realm (P.T.R.) allows the playerbase to experience and comment on the changes before they go live so that people aren't completely confounded come patch day (some class changes can be fairly massive in regards to the impact on playstyle). Also, Blizzards patch notes are not 100% complete until the release date. some things they do keep hidden until P-day contrary to what was posted previously.

Now WoW's community (speaking generally there are, as always, exceptions that are both nice and helpful) on the whole is horrible, beyond horrible, it's the most vile-filled scum ridden cess pit you could possibly hope to find (forum community at least, and certainly a vocal part of it in game). As such, the "discussion" at least on the general forum tends to be more poorly spelled and constructed QQ crapfests then constructive feedback.

However, If you can put aside the seemingly irrational, spontaneous, uncontrolled polarization that mentioning "WoW" or anything "WoW"-related seems to create*. You should be able to see that there is merit to their system of doing things. While their open relations with their community is certainly not a huge part of their success, it's obvious it is part of it. I'd love to have an SE O-Board monitored by company admins that posses the ability to also speak for (within limits) the company and discuss topics directly with players, some admins even having direct communication with the development teams.

I think, given how much better XI's community was in general then WoW's, such discourse could lead to some very interesting and productive posts.

Off Topic -*I have no idea why this happens personally, I can understand not liking a game. But even with games I couldn't stand to play I'm not going to ignore something it does right. There are plenty of flaws with WoW, plenty of flaws with Activision-Blizzard (*cough*Bobby Kotick *cough*), and plenty of reasons that not only did I quit WoW but that I quit it 2 years faster then I left XI. This said, I can see the things they have done and continue to do that set a certain standard for MMO's in general.

I don't get the Us vs. Them mentality some people seem to have when it comes to games or even companies. In my mind a nigh perfect MMO would be one that could blend the quest system, dungeon system and community relations (as in, dev team to playerbase) of WoW with the Story Telling ability, depth of world, social community focused game play of FFXI. Not to mention the myriad of other little bits and pieces of each game that I loved.

I apologize I seem to have digressed a bit from the topic here. I'm just confuzzled by the enmity created for no apparent reason.
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#18 Oct 27 2010 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know if this is true but some people say it is because of the japanese mentality that they are not telling us what they will do but only what they have done.

Maybe it is because of that.
#19 Oct 27 2010 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
The people who are complaining about the fact that they don't publish notes on changes before hand are the same people who do nothing but kvetch all day and all night.

I don't care either way about patch notes, however, I have to say when a person never says anything constructive ever and does nothing but talk sh^t in every post- I don't really take their opinions seriously.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#20 Oct 27 2010 at 3:07 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
While their open relations with their community is certainly not a huge part of their success, it's obvious it is part of it. I'd love to have an SE O-Board monitored by company admins that posses the ability to also speak for (within limits) the company and discuss topics directly with players, some admins even having direct communication with the development teams.


What I am trying to get across is that this "community relations" deal has two sides to it: "Us" and "Them".

What is most important from the game's PoV is to have "Our" voice be heard by "Them".

That is the reason why their open relations are a success.

Now, on the other hand, that "Their" voice is heard by "Us" is not even close as important. The fact is that each time the game is updated, that is "Their" voice talking to "Us". And the best of it all? This kind of "talking" is concrete, it is substantial, it is not just about promises and pillow talk.

And from there, we can comment on everything they have done so far- threads pop up here and in BG among other places for "Them" to hear. And that "they" listen is what will point this game to success or failure. Of course that's not enough, as if the developers are incompetent what we say won't matter because they still won't get it right. But we can point them to the right direction.

It's nice to get a sneakpeek of the future once in a while, especially when the game is not fun enough to be played and enjoyed as is- but once (if) the game becomes fun, this kind of thing loses it's importance. The game is the most important, not what happens outside of it. And to most people, this is the case.

Then there is the vocal "forum" minority for whom this for some reason isn't enough. More than likely it is because they don't enjoy the game anymore and play it anyway, in which case this "fluff" ("them" talking to "us") becomes important again. But at that point, they should just quit. That's what all the rational people do. In any game.

That Blizzard feeds "us" with fluff is not a part of their success. It is that they listen to what "we" have to say that makes the game as good as it is. And "they" don't need to talk to "us" to achieve that, and neither does SE. Tell us what's in the updates, maybe keep us informed about the general big picture once in a while, and listen. That's all it takes.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#21 Oct 27 2010 at 3:14 AM Rating: Good
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4,145 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They have less maintenance after a major update than I have ever witnessed with FFXI, so I'd imagine it's more of the same for FFXIV. If you don't want to know then you don't have to read the update notes or test the changes in the beta. I will say that the first time you hear about anything it's a surprise. Doesn't matter if you hear about it the day of the changes, the day before or the week before, m'kay?


That's a good thing, considering they have a maintenance every week. It would be quite pathetic otherwise.

Is the beta always under NDA or why do you only hear about it a week before?

And yeah lol, if the update notes are there of course I'll read them. Just like so many people bought XIV knowing it's not good enough. We do things knowing it may not be the most rational choice for us all the time.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 8:48am by Hyanmen


They don't have maintenance every week. They don't even have maintenance every other week. Even if they did it's normally off-peak hours and doesn't really have a big impact. Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Check your facts.

I have no idea what your question about the beta is supposed to mean. The PTR(ongoing beta) for WoW has the tentative update notes posted for anyone to see. No NDA necessary because they are a developer who actually communicate with their playerbase. What a concept.

I tend to be a pretty logical person for the most part. I did not buy this game. I tested alpha/beta and open beta. It's understandable that a game have issues in alpha and beta testing, but I saw so little change over that 6 months that I wasn't going to take the chance. I wouldn't say that I never do anything irrational, but almost never when it comes to money.


Edited, Oct 27th 2010 5:14am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#22 Oct 27 2010 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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4,145 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
That Blizzard feeds "us" with fluff is not a part of their success. It is that they listen to what "we" have to say that makes the game as good as it is. And "they" don't need to talk to "us" to achieve that, and neither does SE. Tell us what's in the updates, maybe keep us informed about the general big picture once in a while, and listen. That's all it takes.

You underestimate how valuable communication is when it works both ways. It lends a tremendous amount of credibility when you have a developer respond directly to a player's forum post with an intelligible response that sounds like it comes from your raid leader. Blue posts almost always come out like a response from someone who spends a lot of time playing the game and understands how you play. Obviously you play WoW or have played before, but if you were ever into PvP or endgame content and followed the blue posts from the forum admins then you'd realize that it works better when communication goes back and forth.

Blizz gives you straight talk. If you ask for something and they're not going to do it, you'll get a valid reason why that shows they at least put some thought into it. If you ask SE for something you always get the same 3-4 responses. "We are taking a look at..." "In the future we might consider..." "Currently we have no plans for..." "At this time we cannot go into detail about..."

Fluff should be a word reserved for a company who has dev talks about **** you should have read a month ago in the game manual. Gimmie a break.




____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 Oct 27 2010 at 3:33 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
They don't have maintenance every week. They don't even have maintenance every other week. Even if they did it's normally off-peak hours and doesn't really have a big impact. Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Check your facts.


That's not what I've experienced, maybe they've changed? Oh yes, there hasn't been a proper update to the game in ages now has there (before the preparatory update to Cataclysm that is)? It's a good thing they are compensating for that somehow.

I'm sure someone is getting affected but hey, it's not me so who cares? If only that applied to everything.

Quote:
I have no idea what your question about the beta is supposed to mean. The PTR(ongoing beta) for WoW has the tentative update notes posted for anyone to see. No NDA necessary because they are a developer who actually communicate with their playerbase. What a concept.


No need for fun either, as you know what's going to happen months ahead of time anyway. Once you get your hands on the update, it's already olde. But the next PTR, now that is interesting.

Quote:
I tend to be a pretty logical person for the most part. I did not buy this game. I tested alpha/beta and open beta. It's understandable that a game have issues in alpha and beta testing, but I saw so little change over that 6 months that I wasn't going to take the chance. I wouldn't say that I never do anything irrational, but almost never when it comes to money.


Good for you. Yet you seem to have a connection to the game still, can't let go or what? A rational person would forget about it at least until it becomes good.

Quote:
You underestimate how valuable communication is when it works both ways. It lends a tremendous amount of credibility when you have a developer respond directly to a player's forum post with an intelligible response that sounds like it comes from your raid leader. Blue posts almost always come out like a response from someone who spends a lot of time playing the game and understands how you play. Obviously you play WoW or have played before, but if you were ever into PvP or endgame content and followed the blue posts from the forum admins then you'd realize that it works better when communication goes back and forth.


Yet nothing you said here is anything more than unnecessary fluff. Do you have an argument for me?

Quote:
Fluff should be a word reserved for a company who has dev talks about sh*t you should have read a month ago in the game manual. Gimmie a break.


Anything that happens out-of-game is fluff. Simple concept you should be able to grasp.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 9:35am by Hyanmen
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#24 Oct 27 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
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845 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
That Blizzard feeds "us" with fluff is not a part of their success. It is that they listen to what "we" have to say that makes the game as good as it is. And "they" don't need to talk to "us" to achieve that, and neither does SE. Tell us what's in the updates, maybe keep us informed about the general big picture once in a while, and listen. That's all it takes.

You underestimate how valuable communication is when it works both ways. It lends a tremendous amount of credibility when you have a developer respond directly to a player's forum post with an intelligible response that sounds like it comes from your raid leader. Blue posts almost always come out like a response from someone who spends a lot of time playing the game and understands how you play. Obviously you play WoW or have played before, but if you were ever into PvP or endgame content and followed the blue posts from the forum admins then you'd realize that it works better when communication goes back and forth.

Blizz gives you straight talk. If you ask for something and they're not going to do it, you'll get a valid reason why that shows they at least put some thought into it. If you ask SE for something you always get the same 3-4 responses. "We are taking a look at..." "In the future we might consider..." "Currently we have no plans for..." "At this time we cannot go into detail about..."

Fluff should be a word reserved for a company who has dev talks about sh*t you should have read a month ago in the game manual. Gimmie a break.






^This.
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#25 Oct 27 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
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228 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
While their open relations with their community is certainly not a huge part of their success, it's obvious it is part of it. I'd love to have an SE O-Board monitored by company admins that posses the ability to also speak for (within limits) the company and discuss topics directly with players, some admins even having direct communication with the development teams.


What I am trying to get across is that this "community relations" deal has two sides to it: "Us" and "Them".

What is most important from the game's PoV is to have "Our" voice be heard by "Them".

That is the reason why their open relations are a success.

Now, on the other hand, that "Their" voice is heard by "Us" is not even close as important. The fact is that each time the game is updated, that is "Their" voice talking to "Us". And the best of it all? This kind of "talking" is concrete, it is substantial, it is not just about promises and pillow talk.

And from there, we can comment on everything they have done so far- threads pop up here and in BG among other places for "Them" to hear. And that "they" listen is what will point this game to success or failure. Of course that's not enough, as if the developers are incompetent what we say won't matter because they still won't get it right. But we can point them to the right direction.

It's nice to get a sneakpeek of the future once in a while, especially when the game is not fun enough to be played and enjoyed as is- but once (if) the game becomes fun, this kind of thing loses it's importance. The game is the most important, not what happens outside of it. And to most people, this is the case.

Then there is the vocal "forum" minority for whom this for some reason isn't enough. More than likely it is because they don't enjoy the game anymore and play it anyway, in which case this "fluff" ("them" talking to "us") becomes important again. But at that point, they should just quit. That's what all the rational people do. In any game.

That Blizzard feeds "us" with fluff is not a part of their success. It is that they listen to what "we" have to say that makes the game as good as it is. And "they" don't need to talk to "us" to achieve that, and neither does SE. Tell us what's in the updates, maybe keep us informed about the general big picture once in a while, and listen. That's all it takes.



I have to disagree, two way communication is certainly important beyond simple "entertainment" value. I can think of two immediate examples of which that occurred during my time in WoW.

First, and more on the lighter side of things - During the Beta for Wrath of the Lich King, it was discovered to the communities dismay that a popular quest item called "Dartol's Rod of Transformation" was being changed so that it only functioned in the proper quest area instead of world wide. This item had been in game for a couple years and had become a great "toy" as it were that people would get purely for entertainment value to use elsewhere (transformed your character into a bear, was neat though never intended to be used outside the quest).

Upon seeing this, people were "upset" by it and the change was ultimately reversed. The community Rep who reported the reversal even had a sense of humor about it saying the poor dev who accidentally hit the "nerf button" was being punished.

On the more important side of things was a much more recent event. - Blizzard announced plans to incorporate a feature called Real I.D. onto it's official forums. The result would be that if you want to post there, you would be doing so under your real life first and last name. This led to an outcry of massive proportions due to the severe breach of customer privacy it entailed, the risks it could bring individual players and numerous other issues and concerns. The single largest thread in WoW history (just over 50,000 pages of replies)was formed on the O-board calling nigh unanimously for this to not come into effect. The outcry was so large that it actually garnered notice by many different gaming news sites, CNN, and the Wall Street Journal. Within 3 days of the announcement to the community of the planned up coming forum change, it was reversed.

Now if we were to take your view that Developer -> Player Base communication is not really important, Blizzard could have simply gone ahead with both changes behind the scenes and only announced them when they were already being implemented. The net result would have been in the first instance; A fun and popular (if small) part of the game being taken out for no real reason thus disappointing the people who enjoyed using it. And in the second instance: an even bigger uproar and certainly many cancellations over the breach of privacy and a definitive loss of player-base trust in the developer(and in businesses that deal directly with the public, damaged reputation is worse then the financial loss).

Is it *required* for a developer to discuss things with it's target audience/consumer? Certainly not, they can do just about anything they wish to as long as it's not illegal. But what possible harm could trying to foster warm relations with the people you wish to sell your product to cause? Why hold back all information and shrug off any positive two-way communication when investing in both can ultimately help you to build a stronger and more popular product/brand name?

Two way communication helps reassure your target audience that they are in fact being heard. That their concerns are truly important and will be addressed- instead of waiting clueless for 2 months to see if they took the criticisms and feedback and are indeed working on ways to improve those areas of a game (a game that is right now on life support), we know that they are and how the are doing it. Customer reassurance is a somewhat more intangible benefit to this kind of interaction but is in no way less important, particularly when things are not going well.
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#26 Oct 27 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
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Stop putting the Blizzard dev team on a pedestal. They've done their own fair share of BS moves and miscommunication over the years. How many times did they talk up Hunter's changing to no Ammo? How many times did they ***** over viable PvP builds? It works both ways, yes...and those arguing logic make valid points. But the bottom line is, SE takes a different approach from Blizzard. And Blizzard has had plenty of cases where communication and PTR change tests have not gone live and their O-boards have blown up with customer frustration. It happens on almost a daily basis over there at their forums.

Just because someone tells you they're going to crush your hand with a sledgehammer before they do it, doesn't make the end result any different. Sometimes, some people prefer to not know it's coming. Each WoW expansion has marked major, major changes to their game...which is one of the reasons I stopped playing. Just when you get used to something, they pull the rug out and change the entire scope of the game mechanics. IMHO, Blizzard listens to their player base a little too much. Cause let's face it...we as MMO players in general can be a little irrational and demanding...and we don't always have all the answers.
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#27 Oct 27 2010 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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Everything gets turned into WoW vs FF....

But while we're on the subject, Blizz has Official Forums that devs and GM's frequent and reply to posts. You can't compare the two companies when it comes to customer service and PR.

One of the above posters said something about the customer service being poor in Germany, I can say from the Canadian PoV the customer service has allways been really good.

Patch 4.0 had no problems btw, a few little bugs, some dragons flapping their wings too fast like hummingbirds, nothing really noteworthy, no server crashes. Oh there was a bug that made the game crash when clicking portals every so often, but it was hotfixed. Updates are streamed so you can play and DL patches at the same time.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 8:17am by KristoFurwalken

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 8:18am by KristoFurwalken
#28 Oct 27 2010 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Why would you expect the patch notes to be released before the patch? There is a lot of time before the patch/maintenance. They can add more fixes in that time period. Why send out patch notes a day early, add more fixes and resend the patch notes. The way it's handled now makes more sense to me.
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#29 Oct 27 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Decent
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
Pyrorebirth wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:

Well the largest MMO maker out there disagrees with you. Wow patch notes are known ahead of time BUT that game has a great dev team and wonderful customer support.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 3:34am by UncleRuckusForLife


lol, never heard so much bs....
im german, so i can only tell you how the customer support in germany is and its awful, to know what is in the patch doesnt make wow any better, just look in the forums and everywhere is a bunch of flamethreads at any given time....

beside that fact you're comparing an brand new game with a game developed years ago, just compare ffxi with wow and you see which game is running better technicaly wise...ffxi

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 10:38am by Pyrorebirth


I am comparing a seasoned dev team to a seasoned dev team. Blizzard devs win hands down.


Actually, you are comparing a production team to a production team. And while we know a couple people on the production team, for the most part, those are the people who don't like to be known.
The dev team has nothing to do with the release notes.

As for the patch notes, keep in mind that translation takes time. Posting the message that a date has been set requires no translation (because it's a templated message where they plug in a date). SE has been pretty good about publishing the release notes at or shortly before the patch.

However, based on the listed down time, this is a server reboot. I would assume this is the hardware add that they mentioned earlier. Which falls inline with what they said earlier.

Sorry that you feel left out in notices and information. I do feel that SE is communicating quite well. While the news isn't always good, and the fixes aren't as fast as I would like (and the lack of quests is burning me out quickly), they are trying to fix their mistakes. The game itself is enjoyable, and the fact that they are willing to make sacrifices to compensate for their errors.

Anyways, hopefully now the cities are much more responsive after this.
#30 Oct 27 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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yes providing notes after patching is sensible

however, we are dealing with a game which needs some changes,fixes and content for hte majority of people.
I perosnally sit witing hopign for some of my personal gripes with the game to be fixed.
**** can you imagine if hte they told us the day before "A new quest is available fro mthe chocobo stables in every city" how much hype that would make for the ffxiv fanabase?
#31 Oct 27 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Alanthecelt,
I see your point as well, but they already gave us a general timeline for the major fixes/upgrades.
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#32 Oct 27 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
SE almost always gives update previews on large version updates. I'm guessing this maint is going to be minor, which is why we don't get a pre-update teaser.

We'll see, but that is how SE handled pre-update notes in FFXI.
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#33 Oct 27 2010 at 8:43 AM Rating: Default
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I have to disagree, two way communication is certainly important beyond simple "entertainment" value. I can think of two immediate examples of which that occurred during my time in WoW.


In your first example, changing something like that for no real benefit is a bit absurd. But either way, it would have been changed back in a matter of days after update had it provoked such a reaction (if the developers listen).

I think it is also important not to change anything too hastily, especially if the people are going by hearsay rather than actual experience. In some cases it is more obvious, like in this one, but in others acting too fast may not be as beneficial.

I don't know what to say about the Real ID change, really. It sounds like it was an out-of-game matter rather than in-game, and had to do with more than just WoW? I think it is definitely important to give a notice of such a drastic change beforehand.

From the looks of it two-side communication ahead of time is not always simply fluff, but people are putting it on a pedestal like it changes everything- which I disagree with. Blizzard listens, and that is the trait that SE should get for a cross-class skill. Everything else is "nice, but in no way necessary for them to make or us to play a great game."

Quote:
However, based on the listed down time, this is a server reboot.


All updates so far have taken 2 hours to complete afaik.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 2:46pm by Hyanmen
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#34 Oct 27 2010 at 9:25 AM Rating: Default
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I dont understand why the WoW people are constantly over here attacking this game and its dev...

I have been to the WoW boards and people complain just as much about WoW the only difference is its full of 12 year old fanboys...


here is an idea, this is a FFXIV FANsite.. not a FFXIV HATERsite.. so if something isnt related to constructive thought it shouldnt be here..

all of these "WoW is better than FFXIV" crap should be deleted or moved.. its not helping on any level.. people that like the game dont want to see it and its not even in the correct place for feedback..

this is a FANsite right? so we should be fans?

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 11:26am by djairrick
#35 Oct 27 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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JJCheebone wrote:
Why would you expect the patch notes to be released before the patch? There is a lot of time before the patch/maintenance. They can add more fixes in that time period. Why send out patch notes a day early, add more fixes and resend the patch notes. The way it's handled now makes more sense to me.


Good organization. Publish patch notes some time prior to patching - if you know you can deliver. If you fix or change more stuff than you said you would - great! Put those into the next patch.
I'd rather know what's being worked on all the time and have smaller patches more often on a steady basis, than holding by a thread that every time they announce the servers are going down for maintenance, that something will make my playing more enjoyable.

So far we sort of know some of the stuff that's going to (hopefully) go live with November patch. Sort of.... The info they gave us about the patch itself is far from detailed, which is ok. November wasn't as close then, when they made the announcement, as it is now + they really had to dig their way a bit out of the heaps of bad press they've been getting. So, as a PR move, it was completely valid and needed, from a/any company's side. And it did calm us down a bit - which was the point. We'll just see what will November really bring.

Better communication, better PR, more respect for their customers in general.... Imho, that's all that's needed. Though, perhaps it really is in the Japanese mentality - to act the way they do, but then again, a worldwide customer base should require them to adapt as well, and not only the players to be adaptable to the way they're wired.
#36 Oct 27 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
The people who are complaining about the fact that they don't publish notes on changes before hand are the same people who do nothing but kvetch all day and all night.

I don't care either way about patch notes, however, I have to say when a person never says anything constructive ever and does nothing but talk sh^t in every post- I don't really take their opinions seriously.


I agree. Personally, I would like to see patch notes before the updates but that's just because I'm curious by nature. It doesn't mean SE is wrong for not releasing them and frankly, there's nothing anyone can do with the information beyond try to "get <x> done before <y> nerf comes down" or "stockpile <a> item for when <b> is added."

We can't change what SE is or isn't going to do with the patch so there's no need for them to post the notes sooner. And what that means is that people are complaining because they want the patch notes sooner and like the typical children they can be, not satisfying their every want is justification to whine.
#37 Oct 27 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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djairrick wrote:
I dont understand why the WoW people are constantly over here attacking this game and its dev...

I have been to the WoW boards and people complain just as much about WoW the only difference is its full of 12 year old fanboys...


here is an idea, this is a FFXIV FANsite.. not a FFXIV HATERsite.. so if something isnt related to constructive thought it shouldnt be here..

all of these "WoW is better than FFXIV" crap should be deleted or moved.. its not helping on any level.. people that like the game dont want to see it and its not even in the correct place for feedback..

this is a FANsite right? so we should be fans?

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 11:26am by djairrick


If it wasn't WoW, it would be some other game. People compare FF to whatever because WoW or whatever was their earlier/previous/good/bad experience.... Or because some things in 'the other game' worked good, or they happen to think the dev team, in this case, was better or more accessible. And everyone talks from their own experience - someone could have had a bad experience with the other game as well.
Comparison is good, as is competition, even against a bahemoth like WoW. I agree that sometimes the arguments and words get heated - we really could do without that. Impossible though.

Most of people here (or so I'd like to think) who criticize FF do it because they care for it and want to see it shine as it could, if some things were so and so....

You buy a new car and compare how it runs to your old one, your new TV to your old TV, new house to old house etc. You get ******* you sell the new car and buy yet another one - if you can't get accustomed to it, or get over the flaws it has.

#38 Oct 27 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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djairrick wrote:
I dont understand why the WoW people are constantly over here attacking this game and its dev...


You realize that they're not "WoW people" "over here", right? They're people who have played WoW and they've either stopped playing it or they're playing XIV or at least looking at what's going on with XIV as a potential alternative to their MMO of choice. It's not like all people who play or have played WoW are relegated to a particular forum and any time they "venture out" to comment on any other game based on their experience they're trespassing.

If anything, people here need to stop getting so goddam butthurt every time someone mentions Blizzard or WoW. WoW changed the MMO landscape forever and whether you think it was a good change or a bad change, the one thing you can't change is that people are going to be comparing every MMO for still years to come to WoW.

Quote:
I have been to the WoW boards and people complain just as much about WoW the only difference is its full of 12 year old fanboys...


Nobody who plays WoW goes to the o-boards for serious general discussion. They go there for the lulz or to read what the devs are saying and occasionally chime in with their feedback. Don't let the trolls fool you. All it takes is a few dozen assclowns out of a few thousand players to make any forum look like a **** show. Just look at ZAM a few months ago...it was no different.

Git yer head out of your *** and stop being so damned sensitive. I don't agree that people should be complaining that patch notes aren't listed before maintenance, but I also don't agree that you need to be getting your knickers in a knot because someone brought up how Blizzard handles it. If you read through the thread, the negativity stems largely from people getting up in arms over the mention of Blizzard, not someone coming here and going, "NEENER NEENER WOW IS AWESOME XIV FAILS!!"
#39 Oct 27 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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They don't have maintenance every week. They don't even have maintenance every other week. Even if they did it's normally off-peak hours and doesn't really have a big impact. Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Check your facts.


That's not what I've experienced, maybe they've changed? Oh yes, there hasn't been a proper update to the game in ages now has there (before the preparatory update to Cataclysm that is)? It's a good thing they are compensating for that somehow.

I'm sure someone is getting affected but hey, it's not me so who cares? If only that applied to everything.

Quote:
I have no idea what your question about the beta is supposed to mean. The PTR(ongoing beta) for WoW has the tentative update notes posted for anyone to see. No NDA necessary because they are a developer who actually communicate with their playerbase. What a concept.


No need for fun either, as you know what's going to happen months ahead of time anyway. Once you get your hands on the update, it's already olde. But the next PTR, now that is interesting.

Quote:
I tend to be a pretty logical person for the most part. I did not buy this game. I tested alpha/beta and open beta. It's understandable that a game have issues in alpha and beta testing, but I saw so little change over that 6 months that I wasn't going to take the chance. I wouldn't say that I never do anything irrational, but almost never when it comes to money.


Good for you. Yet you seem to have a connection to the game still, can't let go or what? A rational person would forget about it at least until it becomes good.

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You underestimate how valuable communication is when it works both ways. It lends a tremendous amount of credibility when you have a developer respond directly to a player's forum post with an intelligible response that sounds like it comes from your raid leader. Blue posts almost always come out like a response from someone who spends a lot of time playing the game and understands how you play. Obviously you play WoW or have played before, but if you were ever into PvP or endgame content and followed the blue posts from the forum admins then you'd realize that it works better when communication goes back and forth.


Yet nothing you said here is anything more than unnecessary fluff. Do you have an argument for me?

Quote:
Fluff should be a word reserved for a company who has dev talks about sh*t you should have read a month ago in the game manual. Gimmie a break.


Anything that happens out-of-game is fluff. Simple concept you should be able to grasp.


Do you have any idea how an argument works? You don't just respond to someones VALID points with comments about how everything they are saying is fluff. That is just you admitting that you don't have a leg to stand on and rather than defend your argument rationally, you have resorted to discounting whatever is being said, regardless of its relevance. That is pretty much the definition of a troll, and for that, I have rated you down. Just wanted you to know why so that perhaps next time you can try and be more constructive with your responses instead of just making insipid comments about how you are right because everything else is "fluff".

On topic, I 100% agree that part of WoW's success stems from their excellent communication between the devs and the playerbase. Lotro is another example of a company that does this. Every single class in the game has its own personal dev that will actually comment on peoples posts and will help to explain the reasoning behind changes to the job. I really don't think this is too much to ask. In fact, I think that what we currently get from the devs is an absolute joke in comparison. I was hoping that maybe they would have adapted just a LITTLE bit after seeing the effectiveness that other games have seen from open communication lines. Instead, it seems that SE wants to remain in their little shell. I strongly feel this game will be something great eventually, but unless SE makes some serious changes in how they approach communication/feedback, they are going to be met with strong resistance and underwhelming sales numbers.




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#40 Oct 27 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
To be fair, WoW patch notes are only given for major patches. They still do maintenance every tuesday and sometimes change things, and don't release patch notes beforehand if they're just fixing bugs or balancing a few things.
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#41 Oct 27 2010 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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its not a huge deal really, but I'd rather see them post the notes. It doesn't cost them anything, if they announced its coming on a specific time/date, it means its done and they know whats going into it. I think for alot of people its just another example of how SE doesn't like to communicate.
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#42 Oct 27 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Default
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All it takes is a few dozen assclowns out of a few thousand players to make any forum look like a sh*t show. Just look at ZAM a few months ago...it was no different.


a few months ago?! How about now?
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#43 Oct 27 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Everyone likes to bring up WoW, but I actually think EVE is the shining example of patch/expansion communication. Many of the devs contribute weekly blogs on what they're working on, sometimes long before the patches/expansions roll out. They solicit advice from the player base long before anything is implemented. When they arrive. the patches always contain detailed explanations of every minute change. After they've gone live, they take more feedback, and evaluate the effects. They have a team of player correspondents who report on the in-game climate.

It's not just the gritty details, too. They blog and interview about the general direction that they'd like the game to go in, and where they'd like to expand it. You're never in the dark about the game you're playing. It's great. One of my favorite things about EVE.
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#44 Oct 27 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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dang, this is a super long thread. people must be really excited about the announcement of maintenance...
#45 Oct 27 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
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Do you have any idea how an argument works? You don't just respond to someones VALID points with comments about how everything they are saying is fluff. That is just you admitting that you don't have a leg to stand on and rather than defend your argument rationally, you have resorted to discounting whatever is being said, regardless of its relevance. That is pretty much the definition of a troll, and for that, I have rated you down. Just wanted you to know why so that perhaps next time you can try and be more constructive with your responses instead of just making insipid comments about how you are right because everything else is "fluff".


But that is a fact. If you want to try to prove something otherwise, you can do so.

I am the guy speaking for the silent majority who simply doesn't care about what happens out-of-game if the game is good and neither do they if the game is bad; they just won't play.

But there are too many people here who do not belong in this majority. They want to be the princesses because the game itself isn't enough to satisfy them and they are too weak-willed to go on.

In other words "Guys, you know God might not exist right?" /ducks

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 5:16pm by Hyanmen
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#46 Oct 27 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Default
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
Wonder why they cant fill us in on what they are changing, not telling us is so 2003.


Honestly, an entire topic ******** about SE not announcing changes?

SE did announce what they are doing - maintenance.
SE has told use before hand what is changing if it is a big upcoming patch - just like WoW does. WoW has Maintenance every week, but they don't post more than what SE just posted, unless big changes are coming.

People need to stop feeling so entitled. If you honestly find issue with the way SE is preforming their maintenance, and feel WoW does it better - then play WoW.
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#47 Oct 27 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
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In response to some of the comments to me..

my opinion still remains this is a FAN site.. there is a sticky thread for complaints but all the threads I go to are riddled with complaints and bashing..

I have been using the internet for over 20 years now.. so I know about trolling and lulz.. but is that what you want the boards to be about? I came here from the start because it seemed like a more mature take on gaming and was happy to have a place like this to use when the game was finally released..

now it seems that allowing some freedom of expression is ruining the overall FUN of a fansite..
#48 Oct 27 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Do you have any idea how an argument works? You don't just respond to someones VALID points with comments about how everything they are saying is fluff. That is just you admitting that you don't have a leg to stand on and rather than defend your argument rationally, you have resorted to discounting whatever is being said, regardless of its relevance. That is pretty much the definition of a troll, and for that, I have rated you down. Just wanted you to know why so that perhaps next time you can try and be more constructive with your responses instead of just making insipid comments about how you are right because everything else is "fluff".


But that is a fact. If you want to try to prove something otherwise, you can do so.

I am the guy speaking for the silent majority who simply doesn't care about what happens out-of-game if the game is good and neither do they if the game is bad; they just won't play.

But there are too many people here who do not belong in this majority. They want to be the princesses because the game itself isn't enough to satisfy them and they are too weak-willed to go on.

In other words "Guys, you know God might not exist right?" /ducks

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 5:16pm by Hyanmen


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#49HallieXIV, Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 3:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Very true.
#50 Oct 27 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
Eldonia wrote:
It makes sense to wait until they actually start the maintenance to give info on patch updates like these... Any large company like SE would do the same. Stuff changes way too often and quickly to be able to accurately post them prior to the patch. By waiting til the patch is released, they're not making any promises they can't keep, and they're not setting themselves up for failure if they're not able to complete the desired changes in time.


Well the largest MMO maker out there disagrees with you. Wow patch notes are known ahead of time BUT that game has a great dev team and wonderful customer support.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 3:34am by UncleRuckusForLife


Very true.

Hi players, we are sorry we made our game too hard for you so with this patch we will simplify it.

We realise that having 3 different types of spell power is confusing, so we will get rid of them
We realise that hunters having to learn pet skills is too hard - we will make this easier for you
We realise raiding is tough, we will nerf the big bad guys that are too difficult for you so that my 6 year old sister can do it.

As for wonderful customer support - you have obviously never had your account hacked!


I have never had my account hacked however I have watch several guild members over the years get their accounts stolen and within a day, let me repeat that, 1 DAY they had their account back and all of their items and gold restored. THAT is good customer service. Wonder how long it takes to get an account issue worked out with SE?
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#51 Oct 27 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
mistrik wrote:


WoW patch days are buggy, crash ridden messes that tend to go on for several days after wards. If it's a big patch, like say the 4.0 pre-cataclysm patch that's coming up (or is it out? I didn't keep track) you can expect unstable servers (of varying degrees) for at least a couple weeks. That said, they do always seem to get things ironed out and playable in a (somewhat) reasonable time frame. Though tbh I'm not a fan of the amount of maintenance they go through each Tuesday.



4.01 patch just hit a few weeks ago. Servers were completely stable, but there were some fairly serious bugs like players crashing to character select whenever they moused over any clickable object that showed the "cog wheel" mouseover icon. This problem affected between a third and half of all players, and took a week and a half to fix. So that's a pretty serious bug that should have been caught and fixed on PTR, and took surprisingly long to fix on live. Other than that, a lot of little bugs that are normal for any patch for any game. I think the total server downtime for the patch was close to 18 hours, but most of the fixes were pushed as hot fixes, and didn't even require server restarts.

The weekly maintenance is definitely annoying, because can last 6-8 hours. Once in the past they had some sort of technology in place that was going to prevent the need for weekly maintenance, but I think the DB servers start getting screwy after a couple of weeks without maintenance, so they scrapped that.

IMO S-E does a much better job of keeping their servers up in general, and the patches they push live are a lot more stable than what Blizzard pushes to the PTR. They do seem to have a lot more unscheduled downtime after each major patch though.

I wouldn't say that Blizzard's method is necessarily better or worse. They certainly do a better job of utilizing their players to fix things and get balance right before things go live, but I don't really care how the dish gets made, as long as it's delicious when it's served. S-E patches tend to feel a lot more like Christmas than Blizzard patches, because every thing in a Blizzard patch is well known ahead of time.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 6:36pm by KarlHungis
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