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The Effects of Dexterity on the Battlefield (Test 2: GLA)Follow

#1 Oct 29 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
During the beta and the first five weeks of live play, I’ve seen many people asking about stats and how they should balance them in order to achieve the maximum balance between accuracy and damage.

Over the last few days I documented 1200 attacks and their consequences in order to help us find a starting point on how these stats directly affect us. The goal is to minimize the guesswork going on, and spread the knowledge of what each stat is doing for you on a detailed level.

This post is still a work in progress, and hopefully over the course of the next several years, I will have the opportunity to document several thousand more actions to grow our understanding of the game mechanics. I welcome any suggestions for new theories to test, new mechanics to investigate, and I especially welcome any help in gathering this information.

Now for information from DEX test number two!

The controls/stats and variables:
For this second test on DEX, I am using the Gladiator class instead of the Archer class and examining what the effects of Dexterity are on accuracy, as well as critical hit percentage and Skill Points gained instances per action. For this test, I am using a Physical level 26, Rank 14 Gladiator. I have no active traits. My stats are as follows:
STR :40________________ Fire : 16
VIT :40 ________________ Water : 16
DEX :20* ______________ Lightning : 15
INT :16 ________________ Wind : 99
MND :20 _______________ Earth : 15
PIE :16 ________________ Ice : 13
*In part 2, 3, and 4 of test two, the dexterity is increased to 40, 60 and then 80 to test the effects on accuracy, critical hit percentage, and Skill Points gained instances per action. No other stats are changed. Each time dexterity is increased all gear is repaired to 75% at NPC repair vendor, which is where it began the testing. All other variables remain the same as original tests.

My gear is as follows:
Bronze Dagger (NO SHIELD)
Hempen Beret
Sheepskin Harness
Rope Belt
Hempen Work Gloves +1
Cotton Breeches
Hermes Shoes
Well-worn Undershirt
Well-worn Halftights

The test mobs were the Thistletail Marmot in the North Forest outside of Gridania, specifically the ones located in the large open space near the Coerthas zone. For control purposes, I only used Light Slash ability once engaged.

The Results:

Accuracy –
* 20 DEX gave a result of 84 misses and 216 hits, for an accuracy of 72%
* 40 DEX gave a result of 92 misses and 208 hits, for an accuracy of 69.33%
* 60 DEX gave a result of 75 misses and 225 hits, for an accuracy of 75%
* 80 DEX gave a result of 49 misses and 251 hits, for an accuracy of 83.66%
Up until I got to the 80 DEX test, the results were very similar to what I received on Archer. I'm now considering the possibility that the increases to accuracy from DEX might be tiered, not linear. It doesn't explain the horrible 80 DEX tests on Archer, so I'll be doing more testing to sort this all out in the near future.

Critical Hit Rate –
* At 20 DEX, 10.19% of successful attacks were critical hits.
* At 40 DEX, 10.58% of successful attacks were critical hits.
* At 60 DEX, 12% of successful attacks were critical hits.
* At 80 DEX, 9.56% of successful attacks were critical hits.
It does not appear dexterity has any effect on the critical rate on Gladiator class either.

Skill Points Gained per Attack –
* At 20 DEX, 25% of successful attacks resulted in SP gain.
* At 40 DEX, 24.04% of successful attacks resulted in SP gain.
* At 60 DEX, 25.78% of successful attack resulted in SP gain.
* At 80 DEX, 29.48% of successful attacks resulted in SP gain.
It does not appear that DEX affected SP gain in any way.

Critical Damage Increase –
* At 20 DEX, non-critical attacks hit for 118.09 damage per hit and critical attacks hit for 135.41 damage per hit, which is a 14.67% increase in damage on critical hits.
* At 40 DEX, non-critical attacks hit for 114.24 damage per hit and critical attacks hit for 135.23 damage per hit, which is a 18.37% increase in damage on critical hits.
* At 60 DEX, non-critical attacks hit for 115.66 damage per hit and critical attacks hit for 136.85 damage per hit, which is a 18.32% increase in damage on critical hits.
* At 80 DEX, non-critical attacks hit for 113.81 damage per hit and critical attacks hit for 133.79 damage per hit, which is a 17.56% increase in damage on critical hits.
It does not appear that DEX affected the critical hit damage bonus, which seems to be fixed at about 15%. If it does have an effect, it is minimal at best.

Perhaps in my first DEX test, I was a bit hasty in determining that DEX was useless. It is possible that DEX does have an effect on accuracy when used in higher quantities. It also seems that instead of 70% accuracy being the accuracy cap, 70% may be the base accuracy on mobs that are same lvl or slightly lower lvl than the player character. I will add more to this post later tonight, but for now I have to go to work.

As mentioned before, any constructive criticism is appreciated.

Edited, Oct 30th 2010 8:17pm by Yabusame
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#2 Oct 29 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
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The odd thing with this is "we think" we know that stats have a cap to them for each lvl and at 14 dex should cap at 62. After next week I'm planning on testing dex and str on a large scale and see if they both have and effect on +acc/+att also.
#3 Oct 29 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Default
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Did I mention I love you?

Where can I get a parser? I'd love to find soft caps for all marauder related stats if I had one.
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#4 Oct 29 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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This is COMPLETELY anecdotal and thus more or less useless but from MY observations STR may affect CRITS in FFXIV.

Why I say this is that I noticed a very marked increase in my CRIT-rate when I purchased and equipped some STR rings. I'm currently plvl 34 and my base stats are currently STR-80, VIT-72, DEX 73. I've leveled up once since I was on PUG and when this occurred but I did notice that once I put on those rings for a few more STR per, and went out to grind on goats and crabs, I was critting like crazy. Much more so than I was previously that is for certain. So perhaps unlike FFXI, STR plays a part in CRIT? Or maybe not haha.

I just wanted to share. :D

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#5 Oct 29 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I love empirical testing; this is great. It may be selfish to say this, but keep up the experiments: I certainly enjoy reading results! XD
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#6 Oct 29 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Yabusame, my hat is off to you. Empirical testing in the name of science!

Only criticism I might have is that thistletail marmots have a bit of a level range and so there's always the possibility of a test being pulled out of whack by a batch of "tougher" marmots versus weaker ones, especially since they're all checking blue. That said, your use of control variables, repairing the gear, etc. are praiseworthy.
#7 Oct 29 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Default
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Here's a suggestion for your tests:

Test not one stat but two stats together because it seems that they are co-dependent.


For example, as i've been switching stats for leveling my mage and melee jobs, i've noticed that that it seems that Dex and Piety strengthen each other.

For example,

My main job is archer. While leveling archer ive also been leveling Theumaturge. For this my stats have been primarily DEX and Piety. MND,vit and STR barely got 20 points while dex and piety were at 65. This was done due to my theu only leveling up as a healer/debuffer in a group not soloing so those debuffs HAD to stick (hence the high piety).

As archer with this setup i noticed a rather dramatic increase in accuracy when fighting yellow and red mobs. Almost a 90% hit rate.

When I switched to leveling archer and gladiator, the stats went high dex, medium str and vit and low mnd and piety (65 dex 40 str 40vit 20 mnd 20 pie). Archer accuracy then dropped back down to about 60% hit rate. same mobs, same gear, same action bar.

We know piety affects other things than magic accuracy ... it affects gathering jobs like fisher for example (according to info on wiki at least). So could it be that piety also acts as a secondary modifier to the job's primary attribute?
#8 Oct 29 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
Skyfaller wrote:
Here's a suggestion for your tests:

Test not one stat but two stats together because it seems that they are co-dependent.


For example, as i've been switching stats for leveling my mage and melee jobs, i've noticed that that it seems that Dex and Piety strengthen each other.

For example,

My main job is archer. While leveling archer ive also been leveling Theumaturge. For this my stats have been primarily DEX and Piety. MND,vit and STR barely got 20 points while dex and piety were at 65. This was done due to my theu only leveling up as a healer/debuffer in a group not soloing so those debuffs HAD to stick (hence the high piety).

As archer with this setup i noticed a rather dramatic increase in accuracy when fighting yellow and red mobs. Almost a 90% hit rate.

When I switched to leveling archer and gladiator, the stats went high dex, medium str and vit and low mnd and piety (65 dex 40 str 40vit 20 mnd 20 pie). Archer accuracy then dropped back down to about 60% hit rate. same mobs, same gear, same action bar.

We know piety affects other things than magic accuracy ... it affects gathering jobs like fisher for example (according to info on wiki at least). So could it be that piety also acts as a secondary modifier to the job's primary attribute?


This is absolutely possible. It may be a while before I can get to this point in testing, but it's possible your theory is valid. I'm in the middle of transition to a retail supervisory position (less than a month before black friday...), my grandma is in the hospital, and I just got married 4 months ago...so my testing time & playing time is very limited right now, but I'll keep it in mind.
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#9 Oct 29 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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Just so you know, GLD = Goldsmith, we don't fight but we do need DEX.
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#10 Oct 29 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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talking about stats... one thing i noticed while leveling my Gla was that block seems to fail now. When i had my stats spread between dex str and vit and i blocked (with bronze scutum) it never failed, now it fails on occasion.

It could be that we looked at the stats all wrong and that the classes DO have stats built int.

The stats we set just augment those built in stats to different effect altogether. that is all.


This is just my opinions and thoughts and should not be interpreted as fact in any way shape of form -shadowofclarence
#11 Oct 30 2010 at 12:26 AM Rating: Decent
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It seems stats have absolutely no affect on battle actions in FFXIV. Better to stack VIT and MND so you can get as much health and mana as possible.
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#12 Oct 30 2010 at 4:22 AM Rating: Default
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I feel SE really needs to come out and address this issue. I mean character build is one of the sole fundamentals of an MMORPG and here SE is leaving us in the dark to test it out. BAD BAD SE!
#13 Oct 30 2010 at 4:33 AM Rating: Decent
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LordBalrog wrote:
I feel SE really needs to come out and address this issue. I mean character build is one of the sole fundamentals of an MMORPG and here SE is leaving us in the dark to test it out. BAD BAD SE!

I prefer it this way. If everything is clear cut it will only be a matter of time until someone figures out the best possible setups and then it's cookie cutting time for everyone and their dog. As it is no one can be too sure their or the other guy's setup is the optimal and this will lead to more variations, which is very welcomed in this system where everyone can virtually be every class.
#14 Oct 30 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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illuminarok wrote:
It seems stats have absolutely no affect on battle actions in FFXIV. Better to stack VIT and MND so you can get as much health and mana as possible.


I have problem dealing ppl like this. Should I just call em stupid and laugh at them? Ignore em? or spend hours to explain to em?
#15 Oct 30 2010 at 5:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Wolfeinstein wrote:
LordBalrog wrote:
I feel SE really needs to come out and address this issue. I mean character build is one of the sole fundamentals of an MMORPG and here SE is leaving us in the dark to test it out. BAD BAD SE!

I prefer it this way. If everything is clear cut it will only be a matter of time until someone figures out the best possible setups and then it's cookie cutting time for everyone and their dog. As it is no one can be too sure their or the other guy's setup is the optimal and this will lead to more variations, which is very welcomed in this system where everyone can virtually be every class.



That is still going to happen, and with the cherry picking of every classes abilities it will be even worse. By the end, assuming it gets that far, there will be one-two sets of accepted abilities per role (Melee DD, Magic DD, Healer, Tank). There may be a few wild card builds or ultra specialized builds but otherwise, that's pretty much it.
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#16 Oct 30 2010 at 6:10 AM Rating: Decent
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^ I was mostly talking about gear and stat distribution, actually. Of course there will always be cookie cutter builds, but making things ambiguous will lessen the effect of min/maxing a bit.

Edited, Oct 30th 2010 8:10am by Wolfeinstein
#17 Oct 30 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Wolfeinstein wrote:
^ I was mostly talking about gear and stat distribution, actually. Of course there will always be cookie cutter builds, but making things ambiguous will lessen the effect of min/maxing a bit.


So... by people making bad characters through ignorance... we prevent uniform builds. I guess that's one solution. XD

But how is that really any different from being a "noob," wearing the wrong gear, and ignoring the wikis?
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#18 Nov 05 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Yabusame,

I'm encouraged by your recent testing. I was affraid that the fact that your previous DEX testing used Archer as the test class skewed the results. There seems to be other variables working against this testing when using the Archer class that are not able to be isolated.

Having said that...Something that I think should be tested is DEX's effect on weapon skills accuracy. My anecdotal observations have lead me to believe that while DEX's effect on regular hit accuracy may be minimal, its effect on weapon skills hit rate seem to be noticeable. Obviously, my recommendation would be to perform this testing on the GLA class so that you can compare these numebers to your base data that you've already collected.
#19 Nov 05 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Just curious, when people are calculating accuracy, are they making a distinction between missing the mob and the mob evading. It seems that as a player we cannot do anything about the mobs evasion (besides a few debuffs). Counting evaded attacks as misses will lead to some incorrect data.
#20 Nov 05 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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So the OP found that DEX didn't have any or just little effect on attacks.

Just now SE came out with a new "Ask the Devs" covering stats and stat effects.
Ask the Devs: Bonus Point Allotment & Quests

They basically say that:
- DEX effects crit rate, crit damage, physical accuracy, evasion, parry for certain weapons
- there is a cap on stats

Yet, there seems to be almost no effect between 20 points DEX and 80 points DEX. Thats 60 stat points difference and should be noticable if it really has an effect.
It could be that you only notice a difference against harder mobs though.
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#21 Nov 05 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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RidingBean wrote:
So the OP found that DEX didn't have any or just little effect on attacks.

Just now SE came out with a new "Ask the Devs" covering stats and stat effects.
Ask the Devs: Bonus Point Allotment & Quests

They basically say that:
- DEX effects crit rate, crit damage, physical accuracy, evasion, parry for certain weapons
- there is a cap on stats

Yet, there seems to be almost no effect between 20 points DEX and 80 points DEX. Thats 60 stat points difference and should be noticable if it really has an effect.
It could be that you only notice a difference against harder mobs though.


That or its broken, just like vit rings.
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#22 Nov 05 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Stat cap for VIT is about 80 at Rank 20 Gladiator. My assumption is that DEX is similar. At Rank 14 you will probably hit the cap at around 60 OR LESS. It would be better to do these kinda of tests with a higher Ranked Character, 20 being the bare minimum if you want to put at least 80 "bonus points" into a stat.

Edited, Nov 5th 2010 12:37pm by RayneZ
#23 Nov 05 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I was reading the new "Ask the Devs" and I had a thought. In your test, did you count misses and mob evades as a separate count? Maybe the amount of evades is a constant amount depending on the enemy you face. They say that Dex affects accuracy we can't assume that the players dex will have an effect on mob evasion.

The story is much different if presented this way:

20 DEX = 61% accuracy
100 attacks 15 misses 24 evades
40 Dex = 60% acc
100 attacks 14 misses 26 evades
60 Dex = 63% acc
100 attacks 12 misses 25 evades
80 DEX = 62% acc
100 attacks 11 misses 27 evades

The amount of attacks that the character missed decreased every time but the total accuracy was varying. The results could look like yours but tell a different story.
#24 Nov 05 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Default
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FluEpidemic wrote:

The story is much different if presented this way:

20 DEX = 61% accuracy
100 attacks 15 misses 24 evades
40 Dex = 60% acc
100 attacks 14 misses 26 evades
60 Dex = 63% acc
100 attacks 12 misses 25 evades
80 DEX = 62% acc
100 attacks 11 misses 27 evades

The amount of attacks that the character missed decreased every time but the total accuracy was varying. The results could look like yours but tell a different story.



Different maybe, but IMO it would tell you the same story. Preliminary conclusion would be that DEX does nothing. Unless you are trying to argue that 1-2 hits in 100 is enough to establish some sort of trend? I get your point though, and I think it's worth noting evades vs. misses going forward.

Here's some data where someone did a further breakdown.

http://www.ffxivpro.com/forum/topic/15675/my-str-and-dex-testing/


Edited, Nov 5th 2010 7:41pm by chopstx
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#25 Nov 05 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Default
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I think it is F**KING ridiculous that players have to run tests like this, why do SE have to be so mysterious about the game mechanics?? Are they achieving anything? They're getting players bored of speculating about something they should know and thus allot of players leaving. We will crack the code eventually but it will be after allot of hours of enduring tests and in general not enjoying the game as much as we would if we clearly knew how the mechanics worked.

I will pose SE this question - Where the **** are the tutorials that explain the mechanics of the game? (Im not saying they should tell you exact percentages of DEX but just some basics we all had to painfully figure out) I don't know about the rest of you but I was utterly confused when I started playing. Im still pretty confused now but at least I can get by.

My ls is already massively more quiet then it was 1-2 weeks ago, I hate to imagine what is going to happen when people have to start paying for the game.

Nice one SE! Your being all mysterious and magical has managed to **** off more people and lost you even more game population



Edited, Nov 5th 2010 7:56pm by Vsayra
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#26 Nov 05 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I took a look at the link you posted.
http://www.ffxivpro.com/forum/topic/15675/my-str-and-dex-testing/

20 DEX Baseline results
Hit: 126 times (63%)
Missed: 30 times (15%)
Evaded: 44 times (22%).

30 DEX results. (10 point increase)
Hit: 130 times (65%)
Missed: 28 times (14%)
Evaded: 42 times (21%)

40 DEX results. (10 point increase)
Hit: 128 times (64%)
Missed: 26 times (13%)
Evaded: 46 times (23%)

50 DEX results. (10 point increase)
Hit: 134 times (67%)
Missed: 18 times (9%)
Evaded: 48 times (24%)

60 DEX results. (10 point increase)
Hit: 126 times (63%)
Missed: 23 times (11.5%)
Evaded: 51 times (25.5%)

There is a trend to the misses at every stage in the test until the last. The effect might be small but it is still there. Misses decreased from 15%, 14%, 13%, 9%, then 11.5%(could be the cap in accuracy somewhere near but that's another question).

I'm just trying to say that maybe DEX will not effect a mob's ability to evade your attack just your percentage to miss.
#27 Nov 06 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Vsayra wrote:
I will pose SE this question - Where the **** are the tutorials that explain the mechanics of the game? (Im not saying they should tell you exact percentages of DEX but just some basics we all had to painfully figure out) I don't know about the rest of you but I was utterly confused when I started playing. Im still pretty confused now but at least I can get by.


Go to any Aetheryte crystal, select "Read The Call of Adventure"
Select "Chapter 2 - Character Development"
Select "Section III - Physical Level"
Select "Sub-section IIIa - Attributes"
Read about the basic functions of each stat (they leave out STR affecting block, DEX affecting evade, crit, and parry, and PIE increasing magic resistance)
Select "Sub-section IIIb - Elements"
Read about the elemental ascendancy, and the effect of raising your elemental stats.
#28 Nov 06 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmm more aswell from ask the DEVs from yesterday in Lodestone
cut and paste from there
Disciplines of War & Magic
Disciples of War rely most heavily upon the STR, VIT, and DEX attributes, while for Disciples of Magic the emphasis is on INT, MND, and PIE. This is useful to remember for players who wish to maximize their character's potential when allocating bonus points.



In addition, there are bonuses to the effect of magic spells that are also based on attribute values. Below is a list showing the general relationship between attributes and magic types. The conditions that result in such bonuses, however, varies between spells.



Magic Type Attribute
Offensive (attack/counter) INT
Healing, Defensive MND
Absorb, Damage over Time (DoT) PIE



Discipline of the Land
Indications as to which attributes are most important to classes within the Discipline of the Land can be found in-game by closely examining the gathering-related abilities obtained via guild marks. Again, for those not willing to invest that sort of time, we have listed the relationships below.


Class Attribute
Miner VIT, MND
Botanist STR, INT
Fisher DEX, PIE



Discipline of the Hand
The effect of attributes on synthesis is limited. When attempting to craft a high-quality item, however, the likelihood of success increases as the attribute most closely associated with the tool being used rises. As the attributes associated with the main and off hand tools of each class are different, players may wish to give careful consideration to the class on which they wish to focus. A list showing the attributes related with the main and off hand tools of each class can be found below.



Class Related Attribute
Main Hand Tool Off Hand Tool
Carpenter VIT DEX
Blacksmith STR MND
Armorer VIT STR
Goldsmith DEX INT
Leatherworker VIT INT
Weaver DEX MND
Alchemist INT PIE
Culinarian MND PIE



It is possible to reset allocated bonus points and free them up for redistribution by selecting Reassign from the Point Allotment screen. Players are encouraged to make use of this feature as needed.



Q. I pressed the Reassign button but did not get all of my bonus points back. Why?
A. Using the Reassign feature will reset only a certain number of allotted bonus points. The feature will then become available for use again after a short period of time. Players wishing to reset all of their bonus points will be required to use the Reassign feature multiple times.


there is abit more don't know if this is any help but would be a good starting point
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