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Thaumaturge vs. ConjurerFollow

#1 Oct 30 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
Ok. I have a few questions I am hoping someone who has leveled both might be able to answer.

1): Both have damage dealing potential, however at this point which can output more damage?
2): Both have the ability to heal, however is either one able to do so more efficiently and/or pull lass hate doing so?
3): Is it better to use a one-handed weapon + shield or a two-handed weapon?

I ask these questions, because at the moment I am purely a crafter, but would like to level one(or both) of these classes.

Is one better to level more than the other? Regardless of which I choose are there any MUST HAVE actions from either class?

Any suggestions or recommendations are highly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
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#2 Oct 30 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist2 wrote:

1): Both have damage dealing potential, however at this point which can output more damage?
2): Both have the ability to heal, however is either one able to do so more efficiently and/or pull lass hate doing so?
3): Is it better to use a one-handed weapon + shield or a two-handed weapon?


Is one better to level more than the other? Regardless of which I choose are there any MUST HAVE actions from either class?


1) Mid game, The same. Late game, Thaumaturge because Conjurer Tier 3 skills are broken (Flare, etc.)
2) Conjurer is better at healing simply because Conjurer heals are circular AoE. Conjurer can sit down and heal at will, while Thaumaturge has to be either behind everyone or in front of everyone. This makes a HUGE difference on raptors. Mindbreakingly huge, thaumaturges are a liability solely because of this fact in comparison.
3) Two-handed weapon.

4) Must have abilities for conjurer are Sacrifice 1 (Half heal potency, better SP gain. Basically sh*ts SP in AoEfests), Siphon MP (Or whatever it's called, R20 steal MP skill), and Firm Conviction, a thaumaturge trait.

Conversely, probably going to want as a thaumaturge Cure 1 and Protect/Shell. MAYBE sleep, but that's pushing it because Sleep is very situational and it gets resisted way too much. I'd say Fastcast, but nobody even knows if it works yet ^^


Honestly, both Thaumaturge and Conjurer DPS suck. If you need DPS, you will recruit a lancer or archer. Thaumaturge/Conjurers are both healers, plain and simple. If you do DPS, you're basically relying on autoattack damage (Equivalent to gladiator DPS but even worse), because your spells are so unreliable against higher level mobs, and you will only be attacking things 10 levels+ higher than you. Even if you counterelement them.

Edited, Oct 30th 2010 8:18pm by Meowshi

Edited, Oct 30th 2010 8:19pm by Meowshi
#3 Oct 30 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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Conjurer Tier 3 skills are broken (Flare, etc.)

sorry, i would love to know how broken it is, thanx
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#4 Oct 30 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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namasy wrote:
Conjurer Tier 3 skills are broken (Flare, etc.)

sorry, i would love to know how broken it is, thanx


It does 1/2 the damage of tier 2 spells.
#5 Oct 30 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
Meowshi wrote:
namasy wrote:
Conjurer Tier 3 skills are broken (Flare, etc.)

sorry, i would love to know how broken it is, thanx


It does 1/2 the damage of tier 2 spells.


Wow... really? I hope they plan on fixing it. i was kinda looking forward to playing conjurer. :(
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#6 Oct 30 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
namasy wrote:
Conjurer Tier 3 skills are broken (Flare, etc.)

sorry, i would love to know how broken it is, thanx


It does 1/2 the damage of tier 2 spells.


Wow... really? I hope they plan on fixing it. i was kinda looking forward to playing conjurer. :(


:) Don't worry about it. As a conjurer, I haven't used any of my nukes for a very, very, very long time. Besides one shotting a star marmot with profundity 2 :D

Conjurers = AoE heal bots. That's all.
#7 Oct 30 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
I am kind of hoping that I can build a RDM equivalent on FFXIV, it was my main job on FFXI, and while I don't really care if there's something exactly like it... The playing style was fun for me. It's just sad that I won't be able to do something like RDM/RNG on here like I did in FFXI. lol Failnaught was my best friend. ^^ Good times...good times.
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#8 Oct 30 2010 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Meowshi wrote:
StateAlchemist2 wrote:

1): Both have damage dealing potential, however at this point which can output more damage?
2): Both have the ability to heal, however is either one able to do so more efficiently and/or pull lass hate doing so?
3): Is it better to use a one-handed weapon + shield or a two-handed weapon?


Is one better to level more than the other? Regardless of which I choose are there any MUST HAVE actions from either class?


1) Mid game, The same. Late game, Thaumaturge because Conjurer Tier 3 skills are broken (Flare, etc.)
2) Conjurer is better at healing simply because Conjurer heals are circular AoE. Conjurer can sit down and heal at will, while Thaumaturge has to be either behind everyone or in front of everyone. This makes a HUGE difference on raptors. Mindbreakingly huge, thaumaturges are a liability solely because of this fact in comparison.
3) Two-handed weapon.

4) Must have abilities for conjurer are Sacrifice 1 (Half heal potency, better SP gain. Basically sh*ts SP in AoEfests), Siphon MP (Or whatever it's called, R20 steal MP skill), and Firm Conviction, a thaumaturge trait.

Conversely, probably going to want as a thaumaturge Cure 1 and Protect/Shell. MAYBE sleep, but that's pushing it because Sleep is very situational and it gets resisted way too much. I'd say Fastcast, but nobody even knows if it works yet ^^


Honestly, both Thaumaturge and Conjurer DPS suck. If you need DPS, you will recruit a lancer or archer. Thaumaturge/Conjurers are both healers, plain and simple. If you do DPS, you're basically relying on autoattack damage (Equivalent to gladiator DPS but even worse), because your spells are so unreliable against higher level mobs, and you will only be attacking things 10 levels+ higher than you. Even if you counterelement them.


I haven't fought any raptors, what makes them harder to heal?
I would have thought the thaumaturges' AoE blows conjurers' away; the cone range and width is huge compared to the circular one.
#9 Oct 30 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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#10 Oct 30 2010 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah but as a conjurer. I just stand on top of the tank and AOE heal. Heck I could do that from a distance if I wanted to. You just set a different macro to <t> and then you can stand back. The range is less than thm, as far as how far out the heal will hit on the casted target, but I don't have to point myself in any particular direction.
#11 Oct 30 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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sylph19 wrote:


I haven't fought any raptors, what makes them harder to heal?
I would have thought the thaumaturges' AoE blows conjurers' away; the cone range and width is huge compared to the circular one.


Raptors use a huge AoE flamethrower that does 900 damage to everyone with shell on = Very good for healers, easy to get max SP from a single cure.

However.

If raptor agros you, and you are behind him, he uses Tail Scythe which does 2k damage to everyone. Instantly kills all casters and DPS, leaving only tanks alive to die to the next flamethrower.

If you are a Conjurer, you sit in the middle, doesn't matter if you get agro, he just stands there and smacks you. If you are a thaumaturge, you have to sit right behind everyone an extremely tiny bit, missing your heal on people that stand off to the side. Or you stand where the raptor is, risking him bugging out and tail scything you anyways.

Edited, Oct 30th 2010 11:22pm by Meowshi
#12 Oct 30 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Stop quoting yourself in your sig.

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#13 Oct 31 2010 at 3:26 AM Rating: Good
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Meowshi wrote:
3) Two-handed weapon.
Out of curiosity, why Two-handed?

If you go with Wand/Shield you can make use of Aegis Boon, which is like a panic button in groups if you happen to pull aggro.

While I don't think it's currently working as it's meant to, until Aegis Boon gets changed it makes you invincible to regular attacks (it doesn't stop weaponskills or spells).

So if you have to throw out a big heal too soon after a mob has been engaged and you end up pulling aggro, you can use Aegis Boon and avoid taking damage for around 10 seconds. That's enough time for a partymate to use some sort of +enmity ability to get the mob off you.

It also heals you for a portion of the damage that you would have taken, though the amount usually isn't very high.

Using it solo is also beneficial, since if things get dicey you can use Aegis Boon, cast a Cure/Sacrifice or two while Aegis Boon keeps your HP stable, then get back into the fight at full HP. You could be fighting 3 mobs and take zero damage for 10 seconds (so long as they use no weaponskills or spells).
#14 Oct 31 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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in the end there both the same job
#15 Oct 31 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Ok. I have a few questions I am hoping someone who has leveled both might be able to answer.

1): Both have damage dealing potential, however at this point which can output more damage?
2): Both have the ability to heal, however is either one able to do so more efficiently and/or pull lass hate doing so?
3): Is it better to use a one-handed weapon + shield or a two-handed weapon?

I ask these questions, because at the moment I am purely a crafter, but would like to level one(or both) of these classes.

Is one better to level more than the other? Regardless of which I choose are there any MUST HAVE actions from either class?

Any suggestions or recommendations are highly appreciated. Thank you in advance.



I just started on Conjurer, only 6 atm, but the only two actual spells I use at all are Stone skin and cure. I just spam Spirit Dart and Skull sunder, can easily take certain types of red mobs. You know your "mage" class is lackluster when it's better to just melee with it.. I miss my Blackmage =/
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#16 Oct 31 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meowshi wrote:
StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
namasy wrote:
Conjurer Tier 3 skills are broken (Flare, etc.)

sorry, i would love to know how broken it is, thanx


It does 1/2 the damage of tier 2 spells.


Wow... really? I hope they plan on fixing it. i was kinda looking forward to playing conjurer. :(


:) Don't worry about it. As a conjurer, I haven't used any of my nukes for a very, very, very long time. Besides one shotting a star marmot with profundity 2 :D

Conjurers = AoE heal bots. That's all.
I really, really wish they'd change this somehow. Not conjurer specifically, but maybe by adding another magic class that doesn't have a cure spell. As it is THM only has one (Sacrifice) and they're considered healers too. The game is really lacking in offensive mages because SE was too stupid to realize that if you give people a healing spell everyone is going to make them play healer in groups.
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#17 Oct 31 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
1. The damage potential is very similar, Conj can tailor elemental attributes to the enemy easier, but Thaum gets the extremely useful basic attack Silhouette at 20, allowing them to control hate a bit easier... However it seems to me that nukes are only good when the damage buffs are available, my nukes are good with Blood Rite and Profundity, and I use both on both classes when I'm going to be nuking.

2. Conj with Sacrifice and cure is better for emergency healing, Thaum with Cure and Sacrifice is better at slow healing in controlled fights. People give Thaum a lot of crap for the conal AoE, but the length and width of the cone is surprisingly large, allowing me to be safely outside of dange simply by standing to the side instead of in front or in back. However Sacrifice spam generate a significant amount of enmity. In the end they are both fine healers, with Thaum getting the slight edge at 20 with Siphon MP, that ability allows the player to completely ignore MP constraints.

3. I prefer two-handed weapons for mages, for the extra weapon durability. AoE casting busts weapons incredibly fast, having to repair less means having more fun in general. Shields on mages for me rarely block and the tiny magic accuracy bonus the square wooden shields provide is not worth the trade off in weapon durability.
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#18 Oct 31 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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theweenie wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
3) Two-handed weapon.
Out of curiosity, why Two-handed?

If you go with Wand/Shield you can make use of Aegis Boon, which is like a panic button in groups if you happen to pull aggro.

While I don't think it's currently working as it's meant to, until Aegis Boon gets changed it makes you invincible to regular attacks (it doesn't stop weaponskills or spells).

So if you have to throw out a big heal too soon after a mob has been engaged and you end up pulling aggro, you can use Aegis Boon and avoid taking damage for around 10 seconds. That's enough time for a partymate to use some sort of +enmity ability to get the mob off you.

It also heals you for a portion of the damage that you would have taken, though the amount usually isn't very high.

Using it solo is also beneficial, since if things get dicey you can use Aegis Boon, cast a Cure/Sacrifice or two while Aegis Boon keeps your HP stable, then get back into the fight at full HP. You could be fighting 3 mobs and take zero damage for 10 seconds (so long as they use no weaponskills or spells).


1. Firm Conviction will keep you alive a lot better than Aegis boon. If you're pulling agro and dying within 1-2 hits, you're not vit softcapped and you probably shouldn't be fighting those monsters anyways. You will kill a lot faster with a 2H weapon than a 1H when soloing, ending up in being a lot more efficient.

VenkelosIlsevet wrote:
1. The damage potential is very similar, Conj can tailor elemental attributes to the enemy easier, but Thaum gets the extremely useful basic attack Silhouette at 20, allowing them to control hate a bit easier... However it seems to me that nukes are only good when the damage buffs are available, my nukes are good with Blood Rite and Profundity, and I use both on both classes when I'm going to be nuking.

Thaumaturge gets Silhouette, Conjurers get Elemental Shroud. Same thing. Both are the same in this aspect


VenkelosIlsevet wrote:
2. Conj with Sacrifice and cure is better for emergency healing, Thaum with Cure and Sacrifice is better at slow healing in controlled fights. People give Thaum a lot of crap for the conal AoE, but the length and width of the cone is surprisingly large, allowing me to be safely outside of dange simply by standing to the side instead of in front or in back. However Sacrifice spam generate a significant amount of enmity. In the end they are both fine healers, with Thaum getting the slight edge at 20 with Siphon MP, that ability allows the player to completely ignore MP constraints.

Both are great healers, but really, the conal AoE is a huge difference. I can't tell you how many times someone has run out of range of my thaumaturge by an opo/aldgoat WS, ending up in their death. If I was a conjurer, that wouldn't have even happened. Thaumaturge gets Siphon MP, which is very very good. That is true, however because it's only a R20 spell, it's easy for a conjurer to get it as well.

Thaumaturge- Infinite MP. Conjurer- More reliable. In the end, since you'll never run out of MP with tranquility anyways, Conjurers are the better healer. They both work in most situations.
#19 Oct 31 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meowshi wrote:
I can't tell you how many times someone has run out of range of my thaumaturge by an opo/aldgoat WS, ending up in their death. If I was a conjurer, that wouldn't have even happened.
And I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me on conjurer because their AoE radius is so pitiful anyone who's not right with the group in melee range with whoever you target doesn't get healed. I have a much easier time hitting everyone, including myself, all while staying out of mob AoE attack range on thaumaturge. The cone is gigantic compared to the circle.
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#20 Oct 31 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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The only time I've had problems with the cone AoE is when some ****** who is dying panics and starts to run around in some attempt to lose aggro. STAY STILL.


Might just be a matter of preference, I prefer thaumaturge AoE a lot more compared to conjurers'.
#21 Nov 01 2010 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
In my limited experience the THM conal range is far superior to CON's aoe range, by quite a large margin. I have not fought Raptors yet though so I have no idea about that specific situation. If your team member gets hit by a knock back move how does aoe cure beat conal cure? I think they both have advantages/disadvantages. When fighting efts I get rarely hit by its frontal aoe lightning move but when it does happen to face me I am far enough away not to get hit, this is not the case with the healing CON as he will need to be right on top of the mob. I'm not trying to knock the CON here either btw - it has many merits too. Regarding debuffs, my THM generally hits mobs that check red to a group of 5-8 people about 30% of the time, which may not seem like a lot but if a fight lasts a few minutes that can mean it procs a couple of times per fight - enough to make a difference to the party in terms of kill time etc. Siphon MP by the way is 100% proc but the amount of MP regained varies. Regarding nukes - well THM's havn't really got anything that is as good (broken as the case may be) as CON's but Scourge and Banish can get reasonable numbers with Profundity on - depends on the mob really. Regarding fastcast - there may not be much data out there on this but I am currently taking my CON to 20 because of this trait. Another THM in my LS has it and when we party together I almost want to stop healing because his heals go off so much quicker than mine - netting him more SP - I think this is a fantastic trait to have.

Edited, Nov 1st 2010 12:41pm by EdyNOTB
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#22 Nov 01 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, I suggest leveling them both. They both have spells that are quite useful. After that the only real difference is their AoE, which I have to agree the thaum's cone is the better of the 2. The range is huge. I can heal myself and my entire party out of any AoE danger as thaum but have to switch targets to heal everyone as a conj. As far as 2h vs 1h and shield. I definitely suggest 1h and shield for soloing. For a party it depends. Are you fighting things that are going to 1 shot you? If so then 2h as the shield isn't going to help. If you can take a few hits the shield may help you survive long enough to get those heals off and the tank to taunt.
#23 Nov 01 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Sacrifice is a cone spell, its LONG distance. So as long as your party isn't retarded, and the mob has a nasty AOE, I'd say thau wins the healing round.
Thau has a lot of debuffs too, which could really help against though mobs. Dia and bio stack so you can lower both def and atk, then slow and gravity for slower stamina regen and lowered evasion.

I think cure has a higher healing cap though... so I'd still say they are better for healing if the mob hits really hard. Then again, thau has regen on sacrifice.

So its pretty even.
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#24 Nov 01 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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my Thaumaturge is R21 right now and I love healing on him. so far my action bar is debuffs/healing/personal buffs ( punishing barbs, Stygian spikes etc). Currently I'm seeing that THM is a more efficient party healer because of the regen effect that will put people at 100% after a few seconds and you don't have to worry about them anymore. Also unless you have a CON that is really conservative THM is a beast of a class in the aspect that it is difficult to run out of mana if played right. Siphon MP really makes a huge difference and if you plan on playing any caster I would suggest lvling THM first to get Siphon MP at R20. In a party situation I don't find myself grabbing too much aggro as THM either because the heals aren't as big as conjurer but the regen makes up for that in my opinion. Also THM heals are slightly cheaper in mana cost which will add up in long fights. Personally I like THM but I'm going to get my CON to 20 so i can have pro/shell and cure 2. The one thing I don't like with THM is your heals cost health to cast also which will get you killed when soloing if you don't have cure or cure 2 which don't cost health. That is my take on the 2 classes and I think they will both be great no matter which you pick, win/win if you like casters.
#25 Nov 01 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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sylph19 wrote:
The only time I've had problems with the cone AoE is when some ****** who is dying panics and starts to run around in some attempt to lose aggro. STAY STILL.


Might just be a matter of preference, I prefer thaumaturge AoE a lot more compared to conjurers'.


In this case, I guess you could say that THM's pros--*puts on sunglasses*--outweigh the CON's.

YYYYEEEEAAAAHHHHHH!
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#26 Nov 01 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I just level them both and use the best spells from each in my book its just pure win so far...
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#27 Nov 01 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Kaelia88 wrote:

In this case, I guess you could say that THM's pros--*puts on sunglasses*--outweigh the CON's.



I LOVE IT!

-- even though Im a CON 100%... well I use punishing barbs and scourage... so maybe not 100% but pretty close.

But to stay on topic - I perfer the circle AoE over the cone-casting. When I do get a few ranks on THM I find myself missing certain "out of range" members at time when attempting to buff. This may be because I'm use to the CONs AoE and it will just take time to get use the cone.

Edited, Nov 1st 2010 2:23pm by edge1006
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#28 Nov 01 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm leveling both to Rank 20, then going to decide which one I like more (currently: CON20/THM18). You should really tryout both because they do feel different in both solo and party settings. The added benefit of dual-leveling both jobs to 20 is that you get some great utility spells that are invaluable to you and your party regardless of job (i.e. tect, shell, cure II, sacrifice II, etc.)

Because the OP is "purely a crafter atm", I don't think the current state of T3 CON nukes should really influence his decision. Those spells become available at Rank 44 CON (iirc), and for anyone that plays a normal / healthy amount of XIV, grinding from rank 1-44 takes a while.
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