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Does not having an AH really affect the economy?Follow

#1 Oct 30 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Does it really affect it that bad? Will the new search function help make it run similar to an AH? Just curious. I always hear my husband Q_Q about no AH. Yeah it's a pain. I agree but as far as economical function how is it affecting us the players?

I know for me, I have a very difficult time finding items I need, my husband as well, he can't find an AXE for his MRD. He is still using the one he started the game with.

However, I will say going through the wards is almost, to me very reminiscent of a kid at Christmas. You never know what you'll find ^_^
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#2 Oct 30 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
I'm going to say yes, lack of an AH or search function affects the economy. Imagine looking for a red widget in the appropriate market ward which is at capacity (as far as how many retainers can fit in there). Consider the fact that a majority of retainers still sell junk, for all intents and purposes, and even the ones that have useful items may not have what you're looking for. Going through 150 bazaars is time consuming. If I come across a red widget for 50k in the fourth bazaar I check, I'm going to buy it, assuming it's not a completely outlandish asking price (that's a whole other story), even if the 15th or 30th bazaar has it for 10-20k cheaper.

If there were a search function, I'd be able to go in, find out who has it, and buy it for the lowest price. Players would be forced to be competitive, driving the market price to a 'going rate'. Right now there is no way in game to tell who has what for how much, it's much easier to get more for any given item.

This makes sense in my head, but I'm pretty tired, hope it helps a little.
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#3 Oct 30 2010 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
To be honest, as an alchemist, I find myself having to personally farm anything I need. Yes there are a few things useable by alchemist (ingredient-wise) that can be found without too much difficulty, but say I wan't to make potions...The Yellow Ginseng is easy to get from Levequest, and the Sage I can buy from NPC (worst-case scenario), but when someone goes out on Botanist and logs/harvests, are they keeping the Mistletoe they get, if any?

The Bazaar feature at the moment only allows you to sell 20 items at once (10 on person, 10 on retainer). Most people will only keep the items they can sell fast and for the highest amount of gil. Which means for the time being, items that are useful, but have less of a market for will get NPC'd to make room for the quicker selling items.

An AH alleviates this problem by expanding the market over multiple cities. Instead of having to travel 3 different places and hope that within each individuals limited bazaar space they kept an item they found that you need is rough. An AH would allow quick movement of items with less demand, and stabilize the price of commonly used items.

I think the most significant effect an AH would currently impose is the price of shards and crystals. Which can be found for 50-400 each (for shards) and crystals sometimes as high as 5k.

Do I think they should add an AH? Personally, yes, but I am also used to having it because I played FFXI. It's awkward for me since I can't rely on the farming power of the whole server to find what I need.

Both the current Market Ward and an AH each have thier own downfalls, but I think the general player base would be willing to put up with the problems an AH brings (like excessive undercutting).
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#4 Oct 30 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not having an AH leads to an inability to find things for your characters. Given that you cannot spend money if you can't find what you're looking for, we can conclude that it does affect the economy.

Now, is it a negative or positive effect? This is largely subjective as people want different things out of the game. For someone that just wants to get money and spend it on the next weapon/armor/item, this is a negative thing as it is not an easy task. For those that don't mind making their own stuff, its a negative thing because they can't go an buy what they need, they have to farm it. For those that like making their own stuff AND like farming, its a fairly neutral thing as they wouldn't use the current system or the AH at all.

Verdict: Generally bad for players.

Since it is generally bad for players, less players will stay with the game or, at the very least, will stay with the game for a shorter period of time. THIS is bad for the economy as less players means less things getting harvested and less things being made. There's not much reason to make stuff if no one is buying it. Since there's no reason to make stuff, there's no reason to harvest stuff as that won't sell either.

In conclusion: Not having an AH is probably bad for the economy as a whole.
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#5 Oct 30 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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Obviously the M.O. of any MMO is to get your players playing as long as possible.

But SE took it to another level. They try to hide it behind the "Casual Gamer" veil, but it's really all about making you spend more time on their game.

For the most part, leveling is really slow in this game. And when you succeed at doing it at a rapid pace, they penalize you with fatigue.. Which forces you to stop and wait, or just sink more of your time into another class.

And in regards to the economy, it the same thing. Instead of having an AH where you could find your gear/mats/items almost instantly, you have a system where you have to search tirelessly from person to person. If you don't find it, you spend the time farming the said item yourself.

It's all *********
#6 Oct 30 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist2 wrote:
To be honest, as an alchemist, I find myself having to personally farm anything I need. Yes there are a few things useable by alchemist (ingredient-wise) that can be found without too much difficulty, but say I wan't to make potions...The Yellow Ginseng is easy to get from Levequest, and the Sage I can buy from NPC (worst-case scenario), but when someone goes out on Botanist and logs/harvests, are they keeping the Mistletoe they get, if any?

The Bazaar feature at the moment only allows you to sell 20 items at once (10 on person, 10 on retainer). Most people will only keep the items they can sell fast and for the highest amount of gil. Which means for the time being, items that are useful, but have less of a market for will get NPC'd to make room for the quicker selling items.

An AH alleviates this problem by expanding the market over multiple cities. Instead of having to travel 3 different places and hope that within each individuals limited bazaar space they kept an item they found that you need is rough. An AH would allow quick movement of items with less demand, and stabilize the price of commonly used items.


AH wouldn't change that problem. You'd still have a set amount of slots to sell on the AH and people would do the same exact thing. NPC any excess stuff to use their limited slots for selling more expensive ones. If it's a similar AH to XI we're talking about, then people will also mainly put up full stacks of items and NPC the leftovers. It's the same situation with both options there.

As for finding the little items, I'm seeing more of it here n there. Everyone wants to make the current hot items. Market gets flooded and prices have to drop so they move on to another. While people are caught up in that competition, others are finding a little niche item they can farm or make easily and that many don't bother selling. Not a bad idea when most are competing against eachother on the big items. But again, it would be the same with an AH. Only certain people would see the need for "mistletoe" or other small items and start farming it. Others would eventually catch on if they saw the demand and how much they could make on it.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 12:04am by TwistedOwl
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#7 Oct 30 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, but I would think that because the AH would allow for faster sales, new slots would open up quicker, so people might be more inclined to hold on to lesser demand items, knowing that most of thier stuff will sell fast allowing them to list some things that sell slower.

Also, not sure why, but in FFXI, your whole inventory could be bazaared. If theres never going to be an AH, why can we only have 10 bazaar slots? We are forced to juggle repair requests/seeking requests/and selling all within the 20 total slots between ourselves and retainer.
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#8 Oct 30 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Yeah, but I would think that because the AH would allow for faster sales, new slots would open up quicker, so people might be more inclined to hold on to lesser demand items, knowing that most of thier stuff will sell fast allowing them to list some things that sell slower.

Also, not sure why, but in FFXI, your whole inventory could be bazaared. If theres never going to be an AH, why can we only have 10 bazaar slots? We are forced to juggle repair requests/seeking requests/and selling all within the 20 total slots between ourselves and retainer.


True, an AH or adding the search function(depending on how that works out) would definitely speed up the process. That would be nice...

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 12:19am by TwistedOwl
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#9 Oct 30 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I saw the undercutting on the AH in FFXI and sometimes it was so bad it made entire crafts incredibly difficult to do. The current system in FFXIV doesnt really address this. All its doing is making it really painful to find something you need without an hours browsing.

Now in the coming update we do have a search facility going in. Maybe this will help enough but I still think its a real pain having to go through all these bazaars to find what you need.

My characters are kitted out in some really awful gear at the moment. This is mostly down to not being able to effectively sell stuff I am farming and all the crafters charging very high prices for gear made to order. I dont mind high prices and long farming times when I'm getting into the end stages of the game... but ages of work just to buy some crappy rank 15 stuff?. I know that there is probably alchemist who would kill me if they knew all the stuff I have to vendor just to get the space back. In FFXI I would happily sell that off on the AH to make extra money.

Now if the real issue with introducing an AH is undercutting, then why not have a limit on number of items you can sell per day / week? Most of the undercutting was on the high volume items (mostly consumables) so a limit on sales per day / week would easily cover it. At there is no real volume of sales and that I think in the long run will hurt everyone. Crafters included. There is no value in the gil at the moment directly because of this.

On the plus side... i've picked up sooooooo many items which have been set up wrongly in the bazaars :)
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#10 Oct 30 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I am really looking forward to some form of organized search in the wards. In the meantime not having search or an AH I think is helping me sell a few key items that are not over produced. I drop 2 or 3 high line items on my retainer, drop her in the right ward over night and almost always sell them.

On the down side I sell almost nothing in the way of raw materials through the retainer (right ward or not) and have a heck of a time locating an interdependant item from another craft to build what I am working on.

I think an AH or good organized search is going to drive a lot of prices down when people can knowingly compete with each other.


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#11 Oct 31 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
Maybe in combination of the search feature, the ability to have multiple retainers will let people sell different things in different wards simultaneously. This could really help too. I know they are supposed to set that up eventually, but I don't know when.
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#12HallieXIV, Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 12:04 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Since the wards were updated to make it a lot easier to look for what you need, the economy has improved dramatically.
#13 Oct 31 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
HallieXIV wrote:
with an AH, sure I might find the main things quicker - but there will be no "excitement" of finding something I wasnt looking for.


The only excitement I have ever experienced with the Market Ward, is knowing I can go there and synth in some derelict ward and have less UI lag.
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#14 Oct 31 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist2 wrote:
The only excitement I have ever experienced with the Market Ward, is knowing I can go there and synth in some derelict ward and have less UI lag.


God, seriously. I almost want to jump for joy when I get to have at least a few minutes of near-60 FPS within the confines of the lesser populated parts of the Market Ward.

On topic, though, I can only speak for myself. I've effectively resorted to relying simply on myself for most things I need, and the occasional brush with a higher level synther who can make what I need for both materials and a reasonable price.

And I've hardly used it to sell, either. I can't stand not having access to my retainer at all times, largely because I travel to all three cities almost daily. If I wind up needing to move stuff around, I'm stuck up a creek without a paddle if my inventory is full, but I have no retainer access because they're in Limsa, and I'm in Gridania.

I'm sure there are others who do the same, too. Or at least understand and feel the same, since retainer bazaaring makes storage access impossible.
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#15 Oct 31 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist2 wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
with an AH, sure I might find the main things quicker - but there will be no "excitement" of finding something I wasnt looking for.


The only excitement I have ever experienced with the Market Ward, is knowing I can go there and synth in some derelict ward and have less UI lag.


I concur.
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#16 Oct 31 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Now if the real issue with introducing an AH is undercutting, then why not have a limit on number of items you can sell per day / week? Most of the undercutting was on the high volume items (mostly consumables) so a limit on sales per day / week would easily cover it. At there is no real volume of sales and that I think in the long run will hurt everyone. Crafters included. There is no value in the gil at the moment directly because of this.


I don't get why people think 'undercutting' is a problem. It actually represents real changes in supply, therefore the price lowers.
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#17 Oct 31 2010 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:

Now if the real issue with introducing an AH is undercutting, then why not have a limit on number of items you can sell per day / week? Most of the undercutting was on the high volume items (mostly consumables) so a limit on sales per day / week would easily cover it. At there is no real volume of sales and that I think in the long run will hurt everyone. Crafters included. There is no value in the gil at the moment directly because of this.


I don't get why people think 'undercutting' is a problem. It actually represents real changes in supply, therefore the price lowers.


Undercutting is a problem when cost of supplies is significantly greater than cost of final product, but everything else available for skilling up is pretty much unavailable. I don't know if that will be a problem in this game though.
#18 Oct 31 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
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Ravashack wrote:

Undercutting is a problem when cost of supplies is significantly greater than cost of final product, but everything else available for skilling up is pretty much unavailable. I don't know if that will be a problem in this game though.



That really makes no sense. If the costs for supplies is the same across the board, then why would someone be charging less for the item that they just created for said supplies?

The only way that the final item would cost less than the supplies is if the final item is obtainable through means other than crafting.
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#19 Oct 31 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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kornbred wrote:
Ravashack wrote:

Undercutting is a problem when cost of supplies is significantly greater than cost of final product, but everything else available for skilling up is pretty much unavailable. I don't know if that will be a problem in this game though.



That really makes no sense. If the costs for supplies is the same across the board, then why would someone be charging less for the item that they just created for said supplies?

The only way that the final item would cost less than the supplies is if the final item is obtainable through means other than crafting.



Not true at all. Often, materials cost more than the final product because of their opportunity cost. They can be used to make other things, they can be used to gain skillups. Materials, crystals, time all become sunk costs once an item is synthed, and the market value of the item is the only relevant value.

A sword that costs 30k in materials, 5k in crystals isn't automatically worth 35K, its only worth what people will pay for it. And if the market value is 20k, and someone decides that there are too many up for sale and decides to sell at 19, guess what the new market price is 19.
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#20 Oct 31 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Default
I was always a defender of AH. Now after 1 month in this game I realize that with AH the "Undercutting Wars" from FF11 will be back, making most crafting a loss. I like the fact that even while leveling a low level craft i can make money out of it. I dont want a guide to speed through or go slow to avoid huge loss like ff11.

I really dont want AH anymore. The dumb and lazy players get screwed with that but the ones that take the time to research and like to play with market have now a paradise without RMT controlling prices under craft cost.
#21 Oct 31 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Just as Mclaren above me states, the AH centralizes all products. It makes undercutting MUCH easier and FORCES prices to follow one person or group. With the retainer system, people in a hurry can make a quick purchase at a slightly higher (or greatly higher) rate because, as the old saying goes, "everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it." People that do the research (especially in the correct wards) will make like bandits while those who half-*** it or simply don't care will end up with worse deals.

Let me try to use a real-world analogy (I know, these things go so well, right?). It's like going between Target, Walmart, and Best Buy to find that perfect... Oh, let's say a game controller. Walmart sells it for $15.95, Target sells it for $16.50 and Best Buy sells it for $14.00. I'm equidistant from all three. They are equidistant from each other (approximately). Do I want to spend the next hour searching for the absolute best deal? Will I make up for it in gas? How badly do I want to get "teh best deal" versus just getting my controller home to play with it, generally the very reason I went out to get one in the first place?

(There is, of course, a fourth option of the Internet, but that incurs shipping costs, an additional expense, and time measured in days instead of hours).
#22 Oct 31 2010 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
I agree with all of you about the Market Wards being a pain in the ***.That is why i don't get why so many use them in the first place,they should be last resort.If you just go to the guild of what you want made you can almost always find a crafter that will help you.It's in there best interest to they want to sale there product just as much as you want to buy it.

Not to mention whenever someone is actually interacting with me,i'm always inclined to give a better price than me just sticking some random item on my zombie in the market wards.
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#23 Oct 31 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Default
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KujaKoF wrote:
kornbred wrote:
Ravashack wrote:

Undercutting is a problem when cost of supplies is significantly greater than cost of final product, but everything else available for skilling up is pretty much unavailable. I don't know if that will be a problem in this game though.



That really makes no sense. If the costs for supplies is the same across the board, then why would someone be charging less for the item that they just created for said supplies?

The only way that the final item would cost less than the supplies is if the final item is obtainable through means other than crafting.



Not true at all. Often, materials cost more than the final product because of their opportunity cost. They can be used to make other things, they can be used to gain skillups. Materials, crystals, time all become sunk costs once an item is synthed, and the market value of the item is the only relevant value.

A sword that costs 30k in materials, 5k in crystals isn't automatically worth 35K, its only worth what people will pay for it. And if the market value is 20k, and someone decides that there are too many up for sale and decides to sell at 19, guess what the new market price is 19.


If that's true then you're going to see a lack of such swords because no crafter would want to take the gil hit in order to make them, unless said crafter has all crafts to the right level necessary to make all pieces and DoL jobs so that the raw materials did not cost anything.
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#24 Oct 31 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gadhelyn wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
kornbred wrote:
Ravashack wrote:

Undercutting is a problem when cost of supplies is significantly greater than cost of final product, but everything else available for skilling up is pretty much unavailable. I don't know if that will be a problem in this game though.



That really makes no sense. If the costs for supplies is the same across the board, then why would someone be charging less for the item that they just created for said supplies?

The only way that the final item would cost less than the supplies is if the final item is obtainable through means other than crafting.



Not true at all. Often, materials cost more than the final product because of their opportunity cost. They can be used to make other things, they can be used to gain skillups. Materials, crystals, time all become sunk costs once an item is synthed, and the market value of the item is the only relevant value.

A sword that costs 30k in materials, 5k in crystals isn't automatically worth 35K, its only worth what people will pay for it. And if the market value is 20k, and someone decides that there are too many up for sale and decides to sell at 19, guess what the new market price is 19.


If that's true then you're going to see a lack of such swords because no crafter would want to take the gil hit in order to make them, unless said crafter has all crafts to the right level necessary to make all pieces and DoL jobs so that the raw materials did not cost anything.



You're completely right. Nobody would make things at a loss unless its the smallest possible loss to skillup on. And after a while, with nobody making them because they were a loss, the supply will shrink and the price will rise again.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:28pm by KujaKoF
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#25 Oct 31 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:

However, I will say going through the wards is almost, to me very reminiscent of a kid at Christmas. You never know what you'll find ^_^


"A present, look! Oh, it's filled with trash... Hey, another present! Oh, this one's also filled with trash... Wow, another one! Oh, I can't use any of these things... How lucky, one more! Oh, it's filled with compost..."

It must have been a sad childhood, indeed.
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#26 Oct 31 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Deila wrote:
With the retainer system, people in a hurry can make a quick purchase


...really?

The only way that statement could make even half-sense is if you happen to be playing from the event horizon of a black hole.
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#27 Oct 31 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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One nice thing about the AH is that it took me about 2 seconds to determine that no one had what I was looking for for sale. Now I can spend an hour searching the markets wards to figure it out. I would love a seach feature in the wards so I would know if anyone is selling what I am looking for. Having the persons selling the item would be a huge bonus. I wouldn't mind having to check the retainers.
#28 Oct 31 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
KujaKoF wrote:



You're completely right. Nobody would make things at a loss unless its the smallest possible loss to skillup on. And after a while, with nobody making them because they were a loss, the supply will shrink and the price will rise again.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:28pm by KujaKoF


If you're talking about some thing like a low level weapon, the opposite could happen. The supply could keep rising, and the demand could eventually fall, and after awhile they won't even be worth selling on a retainer.

After awhile we'll all be dead. The question is, will the price normalize before we're all dead, assuming that making that good at a loss is the shortest path to skilling up?

People pay more and more money every year to attend college, which represents nothing but a cost in time, money, and opportunity. They do it gladly, because they are focused on the long term outlook of making more money later on. The supply of people who are willing to pay money for college may increase or decrease, but it will never go away until there's another alternative.

For the same reason, certain items may literally NEVER be sold except for less than what they cost to make. People are focused on the long term rewards of raising a craft, whatever those rewards might be, and they'll probably accept a certain amount of short term loss to make that happen.
#29 Oct 31 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
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I think it does a lot. Simply because the sheer amount of items makes it ridiculous to find anything. You literally have to waste time searching through everyone just to find one item.

They wanted to create a search thing to make it easier(correct me if i'm wrong) but a search function will basically... oh right make it an auction house.

I just feel they are trying to make it too hard for various reasons(like RMT) but are failing in the end. Someone will always be highballing or lowballing no matter what game they are in price fixing is inevitable. A price list will be established whether SE likes it or not(FFXIAH comes to mind).

Long story short, yes it does for sooo many reasons. Player driven economies, which this is turning into a hardcore version of, need to be efficient and easily usable or no one is going to enjoy it. "Trying" new things like this MAJOR change should never been done during the release. Clearly for some they have walked away and you don't want to turn into so many other games that looked to innovate on way too many levels.
#30 Oct 31 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think it was the +1 effect that made undercutting cripple the economy for crafters in ffxi, not the AH.

To me, the reason people sold things at a loss was because of the money they would make from the +1. I guess, to put it in an example:

selling 10 iron swords for a 25% loss is made up by selling 1 iron sword +1 for 2000% profit.

if all you could make were "iron swords" people would never sell at a loss unless the item was useless / undervalued compared to the components, which should ideally never happen and is fully controlably by SE.

So I think it will be the +1, +2, etc quality crafts which cause undercutting to get to the point of selling at a loss, regardless of AH or market ward.


Edited, Oct 31st 2010 5:29pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#31 Oct 31 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
I think it was the +1 effect that made undercutting cripple the economy for crafters in ffxi, not the AH.

To me, the reason people sold things at a loss was because of the money they would make from the +1. I guess, to put it in an example:

selling 10 iron swords for a 25% loss is made up by selling 1 iron sword +1 for 2000% profit.

if all you could make were "iron swords" people would never sell at a loss unless the item was useless / undervalued compared to the components, which should ideally never happen and is fully controlably by SE.

So I think it will be the +1, +2, etc quality crafts which cause undercutting to get to the point of selling at a loss, regardless of AH or market ward.


Edited, Oct 31st 2010 5:29pm by KacesofCaitsith


yeah, I remember this happening with Brigandine's (maybe spelled wrong, the level 45 doublet). People were synthing so many of them hoping for +1s, that the supply skyrocketed and the value dropped.
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#32 Oct 31 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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Not having an AH does affect the economy in more ways than 1. Prices on items take a lot longer to stabilize, some never will based on the rarity of said item.

The biggest issue though is player time. It takes way longer to find anything we need atm w/o an AH. When the search feature comes it will help greatly, but will probably still only be per ward. Making us have to move to another ward to check, and then go to a different city to check their wards etc. Much more time consuming. However when the "New Jeuno" is opened, retainers will find their way there as a new home eventually. Thus making the search function more effective, but still kind of stupid.
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#33 Oct 31 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Default
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im set till the lv30's on my equip so its not bothering me and im getting rich. plain old AH usually rapes my wallet from *** holes undercutting and putting mass amounts of stuff in there.
#34 Oct 31 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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I avoid market wards for as long as I can...wasting time to look for something you may or may not find is plain silly. Even with the help of using YG site, it's still near impossible to find EXACTLY the items you want. Honestly, what game economy?

SE can insist no AH for as long as they want...players will determine if this game will survive without one. It's SE's choice if they want to keep this game moving forward. As is, I certainly can't see myself playing beyond the 3-months I signed up for. That's about all the time I'm willing to give this game in the current state.
#35 Oct 31 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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In my books the lack of AH or searchable Market Wards makes this game borderline unplayable. No, scratch that. For me it IS unplayable and they've got until Nov 22nd to fix it, then I am (very regretfully) out. :(
#36 Oct 31 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
plain old AH usually rapes my wallet from *** holes undercutting and putting mass amounts of stuff in there.


Seriously, the audacity of those people. Not even asking your permission before crafting and trying to sell their items.
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#37MclarenTAGPorsche, Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 9:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Are you ******? Hes pointing the basic flaw that comes along Auction Houses making crafts almost useless due to heavy undercutting. Yea lazy bastards, casual players who should be playing wow and gil buyers are the only ones to benefit from auction house. The more dedicated player, that do his research on sites like YG, ask LSmates for discounts dont have to browse more than 1 or 2 markets wards.
#38 Oct 31 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:
Undercutting is a problem when cost of supplies is significantly greater than cost of final product, but everything else available for skilling up is pretty much unavailable. I don't know if that will be a problem in this game though.


This already happens. You know why? Because a significant number of people craft to gain skill, not to sell stuff. The value is in the end game, or being able to support a linkshell or party.

I would be much happier selling at a small loss to another player than vendoring to an NPC (brass ring anyone?) just because it takes so long to sell.
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#39 Nov 01 2010 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:
plain old AH usually rapes my wallet from *** holes undercutting and putting mass amounts of stuff in there.


Seriously, the audacity of those people. Not even asking your permission before crafting and trying to sell their items.


Are you ******? Hes pointing the basic flaw that comes along Auction Houses making crafts almost useless due to heavy undercutting. Yea lazy bastards, casual players who should be playing wow and gil buyers are the only ones to benefit from auction house. The more dedicated player, that do his research on sites like YG, ask LSmates for discounts dont have to browse more than 1 or 2 markets wards.

If you assume AH is going to save this game like it did to FF11 i think you should go back to ff11 or even better,the super simple wow, where theres nothing to research or think like you lazy players and gilbuyers dream of.


You're treating undercutting as a cause, and not an effect. People undercut when the supply is so high, than they won't sell their stuff in a timely manner without dropping the price. Once again, when this happens, that is the new price until supply drops enough. might take days, weeks, or just a few hours until that dude's cheaper products sold.

My sarcastic post was more focused on the part where he said people were ******** for putting mass amounts of stuff in the AH. Players can craft and sell whatever they want. He seemed upset that someone "moved his cheese" (if anyone still gets that reference).

Finally, I dont think an AH would save this game. Its actually about 5th down on my list of things this game needs to become an actual contender. I think the convoluted retainer search function they have talked about adding will work well enough, even if it is still just an AH with a time/anima sink built in.
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#40 Nov 01 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:
plain old AH usually rapes my wallet from *** holes undercutting and putting mass amounts of stuff in there.


Seriously, the audacity of those people. Not even asking your permission before crafting and trying to sell their items.


Are you ******? Hes pointing the basic flaw that comes along Auction Houses making crafts almost useless due to heavy undercutting. Yea lazy bastards, casual players who should be playing wow and gil buyers are the only ones to benefit from auction house. The more dedicated player, that do his research on sites like YG, ask LSmates for discounts dont have to browse more than 1 or 2 markets wards.

If you assume AH is going to save this game like it did to FF11 i think you should go back to ff11 or even better,the super simple wow, where theres nothing to research or think like you lazy players and gilbuyers dream of.



See my post for the reason people undercut below cost.


TL:DR version: it has nothing to do with an AH and everything to do with the +1, +2 mechanics of item quality.
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#41 Nov 01 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:
plain old AH usually rapes my wallet from *** holes undercutting and putting mass amounts of stuff in there.


Seriously, the audacity of those people. Not even asking your permission before crafting and trying to sell their items.


Are you ******? Hes pointing the basic flaw that comes along Auction Houses making crafts almost useless due to heavy undercutting. Yea lazy bastards, casual players who should be playing wow and gil buyers are the only ones to benefit from auction house. The more dedicated player, that do his research on sites like YG, ask LSmates for discounts dont have to browse more than 1 or 2 markets wards.

If you assume AH is going to save this game like it did to FF11 i think you should go back to ff11 or even better,the super simple wow, where theres nothing to research or think like you lazy players and gilbuyers dream of.



See my post for the reason people undercut below cost.


TL:DR version: it has nothing to do with an AH and everything to do with the +1, +2 mechanics of item quality.


Unfortunately it is not. It's more correct to look at the +X items as being able to better retain their price due to the rarity, so once the normal items tank in price that's what people at least try to shoot for. If they were not there this would still go on--you can observe other games that don't have +X items with a convenient search system to easily see this.
#42 Nov 01 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:


Are you ******? Hes pointing the basic flaw that comes along Auction Houses making crafts almost useless due to heavy undercutting. Yea lazy bastards, casual players who should be playing wow and gil buyers are the only ones to benefit from auction house. The more dedicated player, that do his research on sites like YG, ask LSmates for discounts dont have to browse more than 1 or 2 markets wards.


Umm, not every player has access to the level 30 or 40+ crafter in their LS. People want to sell their gear fast and for as much as they can possible get. An AH keeps us all honest. Currently on XIV items are being sold for a mark up of **** near 200-300%. Research on Y.G. won't fix that ******* selling wing glue for 700k when we all know **** well it's not worth that much. An AH allows for competition from crafters. A crafter seeing that wing glue is going for 700k could make a killing selling his for 300k knowing that 700k is absolutely retarded. Yet the guy who was selling for 700k will be on here crying about undercutting when in reality he was price gouging.

No matter the system you will have winners and losers, in the current system the winners are small and already packing in the gil. The losers are everyone else. An AH will flip the table. Buyers will be the winners and sellers will be losers. Only those sellers who can find high demand low supply markets will make a killing on the AH. Or those crafters pumping out the +1 +2 +3 items.

Quote:
If you assume AH is going to save this game like it did to FF11 i think you should go back to ff11 or even better,the super simple wow, where theres nothing to research or think like you lazy players and gilbuyers dream of.


what research exists in this game? YG? pro? The only price history is that which people have put up them selves. Something may be 80k on YG on your sever but on mine it's 120k and nothing is posted on YG. Without a solid price history there is no research. And guess what bugging your ls crafter for all your needs is ******* annoying and takes away from their hard work.

An A.H. will fix alot of problems, shard prices will stead in stead of being so volatile where you can see them from 150-500. It will fix those retards still selling Bronze Haubs for like 100k+ and will allow for those "1st" crafters to sell their new shinny for way more than it's worth (see Thief's Knife @ R/EX)

#43 Nov 01 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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SE's original plan: Everyone would be in a fantastic linkshell where at least one member would have every craft leveled and be willing to share and help so you could get what you needed.

So...put on your rose colored glasses, equip linkshell and when you need a new weapon you ask your carpenter buddy to make the haft, your leatherworker buddy to make the strap, your alchemist buddy to make the fish glue, your armorer buddy to make the spikes and you (as a blacksmith) assemble the pieces and make your axe! Easy peasy!

What happened: Everyone wants to make a profit so this doesn't happen even in helpful linkshells. We end up being forced to either use level 1 weapons, pay 20x markup, or level all the subcrafts ourselves so we can finally make a level 12 axe by the time our marauder is level 25.



#44 Nov 01 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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To reply to the OP, yes, an AH system would be better. Having an AH is like having a search website on the internet. Imagine trying to find a website on the internet without one.

Also, I've seem some of the dumbest posts at this site when it comes to basic economics. It's almost impossible to explain this stuff to a basement dwelling MMO kid who thinks he knows everything. An AH system is an economy and basic economic theory applies. It's indisputable.
#45 Nov 01 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for all the responses, wish some of the posts didn't get so volotile, but still, great discussion.

I do enjoy this retainer system sometimes...being the keyword sometimes.

Today was a good example as to why I wish there was a AH or the Ward search function was in place already (Hopefully it will be a good search function and not a half a$$ one). My daughter was taking her nap...I only have one hour to get what I need to get done. I was running all over the wards trying to find 3...THREE ingredients to make my husband's MRD a pair of boots, I had the other four ingredients...but I needed 3 in order to make the last two. It took me 45 minutes of my daughters nap to find those ingredients and then the other 15 to craft said ingredients to make a set of boots....it should not take me that long to find something so I can give my husbands MRD a piece of updated equip :/ . That sucks.

Hopefully, the new seach function will be more helpful and like I said will work well and not a half hearted attempt of a search function. Something that I can pull up, be pointed to the retainer currently selling an item, so I can move on with my game instead of wasting it during my daughters nap time.

This is the KaneKitty: Thanks you jerk for bringing up sad memories of mine with your comment >:( You didn't have to be rude. If you couldn't say something related to the topic, you really didn't need to post.

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#46 Nov 01 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Deila wrote:
With the retainer system, people in a hurry can make a quick purchase


...really?

The only way that statement could make even half-sense is if you happen to be playing from the event horizon of a black hole.

Can you expand a bit on what you mean? I'd like to respond intelligently, but I'm sure there might be a few different things you could possibly mean with that statement.
#47 Nov 01 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Delia,

An event horizon of a black hole is basically the part of the black hole in which nothing can escape. Wiki states "The most commonly known example of an event horizon is defined around general relativity's description of a black hole, a celestial object so dense that no nearby matter or radiation can escape its gravitational field. This is sometimes described as the boundary within which the black hole's escape velocity is greater than the speed of light. A more accurate description is that within this horizon, all lightlike paths (paths that light could take) and hence all paths in the forward light cones of particles within the horizon, are warped so as to fall farther into the hole. Once a particle is inside the horizon, moving into the hole is as inevitable as moving forward in time, and can actually be thought of as equivalent to doing so, depending on the spacetime coordinate system used."


Now...to answer your question about the guy's usee of the event horizon in his statement...I have no clue either XD. And right now I have to big of a headache to analyze his statment :) But I would at least define event horizon for you ^_^

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#48MclarenTAGPorsche, Posted: Nov 01 2010 at 4:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You are treating the obvious economics 101, that even the gil buyer that doesnt know crap about the game knows.
#49 Nov 01 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
RESEARCHING IS A MUST FOR THIS GAME. I CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH.


Are you for real??? Next you are going to say this game requires you to write a 10 page thesis to play. For the most part anything you need to know about a game SHOULD BE ACCESSIBLE WITHIN THE GAME.

If anything this theory means that the most skilled players will be gil sellers, because it is their JOB to research this game!!!
#50 Nov 01 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Default
A game doesnt have to be easy to be fun, unfortunately that's something the wow generation will never understand.
#51 Nov 01 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
A game doesnt have to be easy to be fun, unfortunately that's something the wow generation will never understand.


where did I say easy?? I said information needs to be available. Just because I need to alt tab(possibly crashing my client) to google where an NPC is doesn't make it hard, it makes it cumbersome and unintuitive. I shouldn't have to research how to succeed in crafting, how to level my character, or complete any of the other convoluted tasks in this game. If it is difficult to the point of where I need some direction the GAME SHOULD INCLUDE SOME FORM OF INSTRUCTIONS.
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