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My only big gripe so far...SPFollow

#1 Oct 31 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Default
12 posts
Skill point gain when playing support classes in party.

Now a support class is to me a class that is in the party to deal mainly DPS and maybe a few party buffs. Like for instance Lancer, Archer, and Marauder. Don't flame me on marauder cause I will not be talking about that class as I have no first hand experience with that class, but I have been playing to R25 archer and R15 lancer so far. I join in small groups of about 5-6 people all within the +/- 5 lvl range. Lets break down the SP gain on average of classes that usually make a party.

Gladiator - Good SP - Get SP from following abilities,
Blocking with shield
Taunting
Melee Damage
Parry
Taking Damage

Healer - Great SP - Get SP from following abilities,
Healing
Buffing
Debuffing
Nuking
Normal Attack Magic Damage

Lancer - Small SP gain - Get SP from following abilities,
Melee Damage

Archer - Small SP gain - Get SP from following abilities,
Physical Ranged Damage

Marauder(When not working as off tank) - Small SP gain - Get SP from following abilities,
Melee Damage

Archer and Lancer for sure have a few debuffs and a few self buffs, but I have not seen any SP gain from using these. Right now I can ATT buff 2x times and use a ACC buff hit with my 3000TP Lancer skill do the most damage and about 1 out of 10-15 times it will proc for SP and only gain my around a 100. Most fights while in a party gain me anywhere from 50-100 on average with a max of 200-250 and a minimum of 0-25. To me this is broken especially when healers can some times grab over 500 SP per mob doing all their stuff listed above and some times over 1000.

PS: I would like to add that while in a party getting 50-100 SP on average I can just solo play and kill green dodos for around 200-250 a pop. So where is the incentive to party up?



Edited, Oct 31st 2010 12:29pm by Vyctavyre
#2 Oct 31 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
26 posts
I thought 500 SP was always the cap, how could a healer get over 1000? I've never seen over 500 at least so far ( mid 20's).


Anyway, if you are a "normal" MMOer with at least 2-3 hours per gaming session there's no reason you shouldn't be in a typical xp party (preferably 10+ members if you have an appropriate mob camp) and getting the 500SP cap on most kills, regardless of class.

If you are a super casual or care not to group you can still do leves or maybe solo stuff and get 100-250 or so at a slow killing pace. That's what makes this more casual friendly than FFXI, you can at least do SOMETHING, but normal play is still xp parties for faster progression.



Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:41pm by regularpony
#3 Oct 31 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Factors you need to consider - Gladiators need to split their 500SP between sword and shield and defensive skills use stamina; for instance taunt and provoke comes at a cost of atleast 3 basic attacks. Healers need to compete with other healers to get a chance to skill up, using spells takes a lot of stamina and has cast times; on high reds resist rate is high (always 0 SP yeild) and thus a lot more costly than just missing say a basic attack or weapon skill.

Where as a damage dealing class can devote 100% of their stamina and time doing actions that have a chance to skill up. This is a luxury the other two classes you listed may not have.
If fights are going to fast maybe you are doing too much damage or you need to fight harder stuff. Double ATT UP 3000TP Doomspikes yeild as much SP as a 250TP Feint so it might be a bad choice for party play. I don't think anyone in your party cares that you are doing the most damage; they probably resent that fact if the fights are going too quick.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:46pm by sylph19
#4 Oct 31 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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Vyctavyre wrote:

Archer and Lancer for sure have a few debuffs and a few self buffs, but I have not seen any SP gain from using these.


Lancer's Heavy Thrust give SP gain all the time for the Bind debuff. Lots of it. In fact for me this is probably where I get most of SP.

However, that's not to say it doesn't suck. I can get 200-300, solo, if I find the right spot to sp but otherwise yeah Lancer is usually on the low end. I don't party much.
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#5 Oct 31 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
12 posts
regularpony wrote:
I thought 500 SP was always the cap, how could a healer get over 1000? I've never seen over 500 at least so far ( mid 20's).


Anyway, if you are a "normal" MMOer with at least 2-3 hours per gaming session there's no reason you shouldn't be in a typical xp party (preferably 10+ members if you have an appropriate mob camp) and getting the 500SP cap on most kills, regardless of class.

If you are a super casual or care not to group you can still do leves or maybe solo stuff and get 100-250 or so at a slow killing pace. That's what makes this more casual friendly than FFXI, you can at least do SOMETHING, but normal play is still xp parties for faster progression.



Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:41pm by regularpony


I agree there is a cap, but for CON/THM their different abilities SP gain go into diff pots. They get a seperate pot for heals, buffs, debuffs, and nuke. So that means they could in theory get 2000 SP from one kill if capped on all of them. I have a 15 CON also and at the end of the battle you can see that when it calculates up your total SP gain you actually get multiple totals and not just one grand total.

I am a "heavy" MMoer per say I play for around 6-8 hours a day most of the time, but even in parties of around 10-15 people getting SP off only Physical Damage is very unrewarding compared to the Glads and the Healers.
#6 Oct 31 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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Vyctavyre wrote:
I agree there is a cap, but for CON/THM their different abilities SP gain go into diff pots. They get a seperate pot for heals, buffs, debuffs, and nuke. So that means they could in theory get 2000 SP from one kill if capped on all of them. I have a 15 CON also and at the end of the battle you can see that when it calculates up your total SP gain you actually get multiple totals and not just one grand total.

I am a "heavy" MMoer per say I play for around 6-8 hours a day most of the time, but even in parties of around 10-15 people getting SP off only Physical Damage is very unrewarding compared to the Glads and the Healers.


This has never happened, it will always add up to 500. Sometimes I have 3 seperate gains; SP from darts, heals and offensive magic. Never has it once added to over 500.
#7 Oct 31 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
sylph19 wrote:
Factors you need to consider - Gladiators need to split their 500SP between sword and shield and defensive skills use stamina; for instance taunt and provoke comes at a cost of atleast 3 basic attacks. Healers need to compete with other healers to get a chance to skill up, using spells takes a lot of stamina and has cast times; on high reds resist rate is high (always 0 SP yeild) and thus a lot more costly than just missing say a basic attack or weapon skill.

Where as a damage dealing class can devote 100% of their stamina and time doing actions that have a chance to skill up. This is a luxury the other two classes you listed may not have.
If fights are going to fast maybe you are doing too much damage or you need to fight harder stuff. Double ATT UP 3000TP Doomspikes yeild as much SP as a 250TP Feint so it might be a bad choice for party play. I don't think anyone in your party cares that you are doing the most damage; they probably resent that fact if the fights are going too quick.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:46pm by sylph19


I am glad you said this cause this helps prove my point completely. We are all in parties and party grinds to get SP that is no secret. Very few times have I been in a party to kill certain mobs for certain items.

Here is the delima:

Weak mob in party grants Physical attackers most SP, but therefor grants healers least and fights are quicker
Strong mob grants physical attackers like me least SP, but therefor grants healers most and fights take longer

I have seen it balance out before. CON/THM for weaker mobs need to less focus on healing and more on nuking. When in large groups focus less on CURE II but more on CURE I so healers share SP better and therefor less competition. 1-2 healers should never be battling each other for SP they can share quite nicely, but having 3+ is just a crowd for healers.

You also have to understand the PROC rate of SP gain from successful hits. It is completely random and the harder the mob is the less you get. Each PROC is solely dependent on how much the physical damage hit the mob for. So at R15 if I am fighting Giant Crabs with a group consisting of 2 GLA, 2 healers, and me as a LAC(Lancer forgot abbr.) for each successful hit landing 20-30 damage I will get around 30-40 SP for each PROC. This is my argument. Misses always yield 0 SP gain along with evades. Hits only have a chance to PROC and only wield little SP gain.
#8 Oct 31 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
sylph19 wrote:
Vyctavyre wrote:
I agree there is a cap, but for CON/THM their different abilities SP gain go into diff pots. They get a seperate pot for heals, buffs, debuffs, and nuke. So that means they could in theory get 2000 SP from one kill if capped on all of them. I have a 15 CON also and at the end of the battle you can see that when it calculates up your total SP gain you actually get multiple totals and not just one grand total.

I am a "heavy" MMoer per say I play for around 6-8 hours a day most of the time, but even in parties of around 10-15 people getting SP off only Physical Damage is very unrewarding compared to the Glads and the Healers.


This has never happened, it will always add up to 500. Sometimes I have 3 seperate gains; SP from darts, heals and offensive magic. Never has it once added to over 500.


It is a very low chance I have once hit 1300 before. While just today our main healer in a party gained over 900 from one mob.
#9 Oct 31 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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263 posts
To be honest, crabs are just not that great for melee.
I thought your point was that damage dealers get shafted for SP gains.

From my experience, SP gain in parties is highly variable per party. Sometimes I get consistantly amazing SP in parties, sometimes I never get above 200 and it seems to me that there is always someone in the group being shafted for SP; and that person may be a damage dealer, mage or tank.
One great thing Lancers have going for them (and anyone who decides to level Lancer up to 20) is access to Feint. Costs virtually no stamina, has virtually no cooldown, uses low TP and hits 100% of the time for a chance at weaponskill SP gain (80+.) You'll be using it a lot, and it will generate you a tonne of SP.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 2:21pm by sylph19
#10 Oct 31 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
sylph19 wrote:
To be honest, crabs are just not that great for melee.
I thought your point was that damage dealers get shafted for SP gains.

From my experience, SP gain in parties is highly variable per party. Sometimes I get consistantly amazing SP in parties, sometimes I never get above 200 and it seems to me that there is always someone in the group being shafted for SP; and that person may be a damage dealer, mage or tank.
One great thing Lancers have going for them (and anyone who decides to level Lancer up to 20) is access to Feint. Costs virtually no stamina, has virtually no cooldown, uses low TP and hits 100% of the time for a chance at weaponskill SP gain (80+.) You'll be using it a lot, and it will generate you a tonne of SP.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 2:21pm by sylph19


Well it isn't just crabs that was just a example, but it would help if there was some kind of equation that figures out how much SP you will gain instead of it being so random.
#11 Oct 31 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Default
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I totally disagree with everything the OP said.

I've lvled all the jobs to 10 and they all have great sp except for gladiator and no sp healing since im solo only.
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#12 Oct 31 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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koromaseraph wrote:
I totally disagree with everything the OP said.

I've lvled all the jobs to 10 and they all have great sp except for gladiator and no sp healing since im solo only.


Well you are not disagreeing or agreeing at all because you did not read what I said. I am talking about party play and 1-10 is really easy solo.
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