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its too late to fix now but (another wtf were they thinking)Follow

#1 Nov 01 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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So how is an archer supposed to be an archer when his healers insist on using their ae heal and their ae heal only? Not there fault I suppose, they stand around, they want everyone to be in the ae.. and they want to spam there ae heal. Why the **** did square even give the option to single target heal? I died today for the umpteenth time because I wasnt huddled in the (multiple healers) little pile of people he could ae heal.

Perhaps square ought to make the difference a bit larger between single and ae heals? as a start... because currently theyre just encouraging mundane, blande, absolutely zero strategy zerg style gameplay. FFS how many mmos have u played where u get yelled at for doing too much dmg or penalized i the way of your xp for doing too much dmg as a DD? Or asked by your healers to stand in the ae or take dmg?

I mean come the F on...
#2 Nov 01 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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klepp6761 wrote:
So how is an archer supposed to be an archer when his healers insist on using their ae heal and their ae heal only? Not there fault I suppose, they stand around, they want everyone to be in the ae.. and they want to spam there ae heal. Why the **** did square even give the option to single target heal? I died today for the umpteenth time because I wasnt huddled in the (multiple healers) little pile of people he could ae heal.

Perhaps square ought to make the difference a bit larger between single and ae heals? as a start... because currently theyre just encouraging mundane, blande, absolutely zero strategy zerg style gameplay. FFS how many mmos have u played where u get yelled at for doing too much dmg or penalized i the way of your xp for doing too much dmg as a DD? Or asked by your healers to stand in the ae or take dmg?

I mean come the F on...


So umm...all I can do as guess what happened so that's what I'm going to do and if I've got it wrong, you go on ahead and clarify, k?

You're in a party, and you pew pew with your archer, and the mob turns around and goes, "CHOMP!" and after he does that enough times you die.

Sound about right?

(The only other thing I could think of is that you're not standing close enough for healing but you're standing close enough to get tagged by AoE, so if that's the case and you're convinced in your heart of hearts that you had nowhere else you could have moved to extract yourself from AoE range, then I'm afraid I have no solutions for you.)

If that's not the case, then ignore what follows.

Not ignoring yet? Okay. I assume that's because my guesstimate was fairly accurate. Here's the deal...EVERY MMO I have ever played...not one, not a couple; ALL OF THEM...require that damage roles manage their threat. In most of those MMOs (see also: all of them), any damage role can peel a mob off a tank if they don't watch what they're doing. Sometimes you'll get a braindead smacktard who thinks they're some kind of cool because they can go bizonkers and pull a mob off the tank. It's like a fat kid sitting on a toddler and thinking they're cool because the wee one can't move. Managing threat is part of the challenge. And let's face it...if all you were ever required to do was stand there and go bawls out, it would be pretty dull, wouldn't it?

And as a point of fact, in a lot of MMOs healers grow accustomed to a bit of a priority system that puts damage roles who pull threat at the bottom of the barrel in terms of who gets heals when and why. It's nothing personal. It's just resource management. (Okay, sometimes it's personal. I've known more than one healer who is happy to let damage classes die because they've found over time that it's the best way to teach them to either smarten the **** up and L2P or go all emo ******* and drop group, which is a win-win for the party no matter how you look at it.) And since everything I'm hearing from healers is to the effect that targeting party members on the fly is a bit of a pain right now, not managing your threat and expecting to get healed through the resulting chewy chewy chomp is asking a bit much.

You know the only person in a party who ever gets to go bawls out almost all the time and not worry about generating too much threat? The tank. It's awesome.

So you're not being penalized for doing too much damage and if people were trying to convince you in one way or another to slow down and manage threat then no, they weren't yelling at you for doing too much damage. You're being penalized/yelled at for not managing threat, which is part of your job. So we strip out all the conditionals and qualifiers and get to the short version: You're being penalized because you're not doing your job properly.
#3 Nov 01 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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There are too many issues with the spellcasting/heal system to list, but here's my main bugbears with it at the moment.

Firstly, targeting party members for heals often proves to be challenge. Unless you're facing the right direction, not on an incline, checking the wind speed and praying to your deity, it won't even attempt to cast.

Secondly, the casting time for something as simple as a low level heal spell is too long considering the low amount of HP it cures. It's hard to be an adequate healer if your only spell for doing so has a killer recharge and cast time. For that reason, everyone uses AoE because they need to cure everyone with their spells so they're not forced to try repeatedly casting it on those who need it.

Thirdly, there seems to be a weird bug where even when the spell is recharged, it won't let you cast it. It simply says "Cure cannot be used right now" which is totally nondescript. No doubt that is why so many healers have to equip both Cure and Sacrifice so when one is used, they can switch to the other.

Lastly, even with all of the afforementioned issues taken care of, casting AoE cures in a group is like running naked in heavy rain during a lightning storm in the transformers area of a nuclear power plant. During a meltdown. Conjurers have so little HP, that even pulling aggro for a short while is all it takes to eat dirt. The only option for survivalists is to pump every spare bit of your points into vitality, which in turn reduces your effectiveness in battle.

To be honest, I see a lot of classes, including Gladiator, Marauder, and yes, Archer, all equipping the cure spell to give them added survivability, in a team or otherwise. It only costs a few points but adds a lot. But it says a lot about the game mechanics when melee classes are forced to use points on skills which have nothing to do with their role in a group just to last long enough to finish the battle.

I doubt this is something we'll see fixed any time soon, but we can always cross our fingers and hope.
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short version: You're being penalized because you're not doing your job properly.
I disagree. While I respect your sentiments since they are true for the vast majority of online games, the aggro system in FFXIV seems somewhat erratic. I'm sure there's logic and reason to the whole thing, but as it stands it's pretty baffling to note that myself, a low level Conjurer, can somehow still steal aggro from a high level Pugilist dealing insane amounts of damage to a monster. All with a single cast of Sacrifice. Again, it might be down to a multitude of other hidden factors, but as it stands im still convinced it's not working entirely as planned.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2010 1:53am by Glitterhands
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#4 Nov 02 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Glitterhands wrote:
I disagree. While I respect your sentiments since they are true for the vast majority of online games, the aggro system in FFXIV seems somewhat erratic. I'm sure there's logic and reason to the whole thing, but as it stands it's pretty baffling to note that myself, a low level Conjurer, can somehow still steal aggro from a high level Pugilist dealing insane amounts of damage to a monster. All with a single cast of Sacrifice. Again, it might be down to a multitude of other hidden factors, but as it stands im still convinced it's not working entirely as planned.


I think the devs may have said that's something they were working on, but I could be mistaken.

The rule for damage classes has always been the same: it doesn't matter how much threat the tank is/isn't producing. If you peel a mob, it's your fault. If you peel a mob repeatedly and die, it's your fault. If you continue to do damage when you are in dire need of healing and you die, it's your fault. If receiving healing means you have to be in a specific location and you aren't in that location and you die, it's your fault.

Threat mechanics working as intended or not, it's been my general observation that most people are so wound up about getting the most possible attacks in for potential SP gains that they wind up playing in a very, very sloppy style.

It's not the same for healers as it is for damage classes. Healers frequently don't have a choice. You cast that next healing spell or someone dies and if that someone happens to be the tank, bad things usually follow. That's why a lot of players tend to look at the tank and healer as the bookends of any given group. You can frequently get by with a little less damage, but dead is dead and it's typically the tank(s) and healer(s) that play an instrumental role in preventing that from happening.
#5 Nov 02 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Decent
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incorrect, actually lower worse equiped archers pull aggro over me. more like i wasnt outta range for the mobs super ae and the healer didnt heal me because i wanst on top of his pile of people and refused to switch from spamming ae heal. so if thats strategy and fun mmmo'ing to you, then keep on clicking away on your ae heal. if square intended it to be used that way and only that way, they wouldnt have put the single heal option in.

that said, i agree with the targeting issues and all that jazz, Fkeys outta target party members for starters. I shouldnt be told to not stand out of range of ae's then when i do stand in range but im off to the side just far enough to not catch the ae heal, then die and be told sorry i ae heal... anyhow, not going to argue my point thats for certain =p

thanks for the time you invested in your post <3
#6 Nov 02 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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klepp6761 wrote:
incorrect, actually lower worse equiped archers pull aggro over me. more like i wasnt outta range for the mobs super ae and the healer didnt heal me because i wanst on top of his pile of people and refused to switch from spamming ae heal. so if thats strategy and fun mmmo'ing to you, then keep on clicking away on your ae heal. if square intended it to be used that way and only that way, they wouldnt have put the single heal option in.

that said, i agree with the targeting issues and all that jazz, Fkeys outta target party members for starters. I shouldnt be told to not stand out of range of ae's then when i do stand in range but im off to the side just far enough to not catch the ae heal, then die and be told sorry i ae heal... anyhow, not going to argue my point thats for certain =p

thanks for the time you invested in your post <3


So what you're saying is that you refused to move into range of the AoE heals because you didn't want to get hit by the AoE attacks that were hitting you anyway?
#7 Nov 02 2010 at 12:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have to nod my head with Glitterhands.

I try know how aggro works in the MMOs I play, because knowing is surviving. And I can let a melee class go to town on a monster to a third of its hitpoints before I touch anything on my hotbar as a conjuror - but as I soon as I so much as tap Profundity, the mob is peeled and on me - and my first spell hasn't even finished the animation yet and I certainly haven't done a lick of damage.

I am at a loss as to how this is supposed to work, honestly, I am. Settle for un-boosted spells, I suppose.

At the same time, to the OP, the healer(s) will go for a heal-umbrella anytime its a viable tactic and even a few times when it's not. It's simply economical and it has the most likelihood of catching the most amount of people (including themselves!), most of the time. It is damned DIFFICULT to target a moving melee attacker, often requiring frantic repositioning on the part of the healer to maintain line-of-sight over, through or around 1) the mob or 2) the other attackers. If an AoE Cure will work or overlapping Cures, by the Twelve, we're gonna use it.

Stay in the umbrella, if you possibly can. If your high-aggro moves are required and the umbrella is too tight, then figure out which healer-type seems to have the most amount of MP to spare and work out something in /tell to keep your damage up and your pixel-body vertical.
#8 Nov 02 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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klepp6761 wrote:
So how is an archer supposed to be an archer when his healers insist on using their ae heal and their ae heal only?
Considering the crappy AoE heal range and the difficulty of selecting individual targets, you have 2 options; stand in melee range and shoot or stand at max range and heal yourself.

At max range the target's AoE shouldn't hit you so that's a bonus. If you pull aggro use Camouflage, run back towards the tank or stand and tank a couple hits; it shouldn't kill you because you've been putting points in VIT, right?

Really, you need to level CON to 20 for the Cure2 spell anyway; there is enough soloable content in the game that having a reliable Cure is never wasted. Shell and Protect also help when you're solo and there's no CON to buff you. Put points in MND also, you dont have an MP regen like mages and who knows when you'll get to tag the crystal again. Also Trifurcate takes mana.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2010 6:36am by Timorith
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#9 Nov 02 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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If the tank dies, its the healers fault.
If the healer dies, its the tanks fault.
If the dps dies, its their own **** fault.


Common thoughts for WoW players, can somewhat apply to this game as well. You didn't explain how you were taking dmg, was it from Aoe or from pulling hate and the mob wailed on you? If it was wailing on you, well you obviously didn't give the tank a chance to build a threat lead, if it was from an AoE attack, well you were close enough to be hit with it, yet too far from your healer so you couldn't get heals. This can be your fault or it could've been the healer/s fault. I believe SE provided a diagram on how positions work for partying, but too lazy to look it up at the moment. I think it had the range dps (Archers/Thaum) farther away with the Con standing between the melee and the ranged. If your healer was up in the mobs face, well... he was an idiot. If he wasn't well then some blame lies on yourself. Archers don't need to be at the very edge of their range to be effective, you just don't want to be within melee range.
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#10 Nov 02 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Learn the difference between THM healers (metal scepters, bone staves and cudgels) and CON healers (wooden sticks or wands).

Mages will almost always AoE heal no matter the situation because, let's face it, there's no point in targetting a specific player/mob when the cost is the same, but the effect multiplies.

THM have a LONG and WIDE AoE Cone starting.. *drum roll* in FRONT of them. I know archers have long range and are cool and all, but find the THM healer, and go pew pew in front of him. Chances are, he's standing a bit afar from the action so his cone hits the whole party... except those who voluntarely stand behind him, who elected themselves as lone wolves self-healers.. or dead meat, whatever.

The CON healer on the other hand has a tiny AoE, but he can pinpoint it on who he wants. Most will simply target it on themselves and move right in the melee because it's easier that way. I call this the PBAoE style. To get healed by a CON healer, you have to stand in the middle of the crowd, so forget about your range "advantage" and just bunch up. That's true whether he's PBAoE style or actually targets the tank/melee every cast. Most healers can't afford to pinpoint a specific target for heals (other than the designated tank) because the cast time and reaction is horrible. We simply cast over and over at the same guy and hope the best.

If you die despite this all... I don't know, start to play mage, then come back and complain after you hit rank25 just casting 2 spells.
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#11 Nov 02 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Default
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plain and simple ****** healers/lazy healers then they complain why there not getting SP, healing is healing in any mmo.
#12 Nov 02 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Good
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jadyness wrote:
I have to nod my head with Glitterhands.

I try know how aggro works in the MMOs I play, because knowing is surviving. And I can let a melee class go to town on a monster to a third of its hitpoints before I touch anything on my hotbar as a conjuror - but as I soon as I so much as tap Profundity, the mob is peeled and on me - and my first spell hasn't even finished the animation yet and I certainly haven't done a lick of damage.


Before I say anything else and before some numpty comes along and accuses me of something I'm not doing, let's be clear that I'm not defending the enmity system in its current iteration as perfect, working as intended, or even good.

All I'm saying is that as a damage class, you need to be aware at all times that healing you is at the bottom of a healer's priority list. First is always themselves and/or the tank and if targeting, resources (ie. MP), healer threat, spell cooldowns, or anything else interfere with their ability to heal players performing a damage role, then those damage players need to stop and think about what is more important...doing what it takes to stay alive or doing more damage and expecting that blaming the healer for your untimely demise is going to undo your halted progression because you spend so much time dead.

From the looks of things, barring bugs or other issues creating unintended results, SE has gone the route of giving damage classes a lot of leeway in the damage department or, to look at it differently, tuning the system so that damage itself is not an enormous enmity generator. It makes sense from a playability standpoint, but it puts the onus on tanks to make sure they're focusing their build (and their playstyle) on those things that carry enhanced enmity generation. And prior to rank 20, abilities that carry an explicit enmity component are not in abundance. And of those that are readily available, Gladiator is the only class that has a reliable one. Phalanx can be used after a Gladiator blocks which is the majority of the time they take a physical hit while their shield is up. The other two tank classes get options to increase their enmity but they're not nearly so reliable. Defender offers a buff to enmity generation but only when the user is in Steadfast Stance, which means it only gives the enmity buff to Marauders, and only Marauders who are not moving around. Pugilists get Jarring Strike, but it can only be used after the Pugilist evades an attack. And that's not nearly so often as a Gladiator blocks an attack.

Starting as soon as any tank class can scrounge up 6k or so guild marks, they can start getting into the dedicated tanking abilities, like Heavy Slash for Gladiators that can replace their starter basic attack with one that has an innate enmity boost. If your tank doesn't have the upgraded tanking version of their basic attack, they're going to struggle with enmity.

In the meantime, while tanks are working their way up to the point where they've got the tricks and skills to build enmity effectively, it seems like healers are producing enmity from their heals in a way that seems tuned under the assumption that the tank is going to be building enmity that they can't always build.

Also, and because it's one of my favorite little bits to harp on, a LOT of tanks are still running around thinking that all they need to do in order to be uber is put Taunt and Provoke side by side on their action bar and rotate between the two, filling up the time between cooldowns with whichever juicy bits they think will earn them SP with little/no regard for stamina. It's very difficult right now to determine what is working and what isn't in terms of the way SE has tuned everything because there are just so **** many tanks who have no clue WTF they're doing but have convinced themselves that their way is the right way and if it's not working, it's because SE blew it.

I took Marauder to 10 for Defender and Pugilist to 10 for Taunt and then kind of forgot about tanking altogether while I worked on crafting and gathering classes. Now that I'm back to tanking and doing my part to learn what I can, I've discovered that I'm probably going to want to tack another few ranks onto both Marauder and Pugilist just to round out my Gladiator's TP-based threat ********

And at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, I could still show up to a rank 20 party with a Square Maple Shield and hempen crafting gear and if the party still decided to have me tank and the damage classes get narfed because I can't hold threat with my Light Slash + ABS-ATK rotation, it's still their fault. It's not fair, I'd probably be blacklisted by at least one person before the party was over, and I'd want to seriously rethink my ambitions about being a tank. But none of that matters, because the players behind damage classes who refuse to adjust their strategy in order to stay alive while doing damage have nobody to blame but themselves.
#13 Nov 02 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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plain and simple sh*tty healers/lazy healers then they complain why there not getting SP, healing is healing in any mmo.
That would be true if:

a) You could fire off cures in quick succession. You cannot.

b) You could easily target party members for healing. You cannot.

Honestly, I've played a fair number of MMOs and the vast majority of them let you quickly target players for healing spells, buffs or otherwise. Even lesser known free MMOs have this. For it to be lacking in a subscription-based MMO is frankly silly. So before you blame the healer, take a good look at the system we have to work with here.
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#14 Nov 02 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Good
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personally I play THA and sort of agree to the fact there needs to be an easy way to target specific members of your party, however since there's not I do an AoE macro all my healing spells.

/aoe on
/abilty
/wait 2
/aoe off

unfortunaltly I've never pted with a RNG so I can't say how they work post rnk1, so I might be going out on a limb here.

during party battles I constantly circle the mob, stand off to the side or rear for any possible flank bonuses and if people get hit circle either behind them or opposite them to hit off my macro to ensure they get hit everyone else is just a bonus in my eyes.

the main problem with this is if people decide to start running away they get out of the AoE but mobs still hit them dead. also with archers the time it takes to put them in range may take to long but as long as they have the def shouldn't be a threat (but as I've said nvr ptied with a rng).

Some advice
  1. Find out if your healer moves much in battle
  2. Determine if your healer is a CON or THA (For AoE styles)
    • [li]If healer is static + tha healer stand opposite the THA for best chance to be hit by spell
    • If healer is static + CON healer position yourself behind the CON.
    • If healer rotates Behind the tank again would most likely be best bet unless healer is THA healing from behind tank then opposite tank.
    [/li]
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#15 Nov 02 2010 at 5:11 AM Rating: Good
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Enmity is quite wonky, it cannot be denied. I've had my conjurer pull a mob off a gladiator who had hit for two criticals and then a TP move, with a single basic attack; we were flabbergasted, to be honest.

I don't know if Taunt (or Provoke) is a +enmity ability at all, to be honest. It looks to be much less "pure enmity" and more "focus on me for a few", to be honest. Anyone done a good amount of tanking yet? Is firing it off a good plan?

At any rate, the prevalence of multiple-mob encounters and the lack of multi-mob aggro management tools means that DDs in FF14 just have to be prepared to take a few hits. Vary your build a little! Swap something off your bar for shock spikes - it'll reduce incoming damage (fewer hits) and give your healer more time to target you and land that heal.

Until we know what tanks should be doing, you can't really blame them for having a tough time holding aggro. So if you're a damage-dealing class, armor up, put a defensive ability or two on your bar, and do what you've gotta do to stay alive... even if that does mean standing in the AOE cone!
#16 Nov 02 2010 at 6:06 AM Rating: Good
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Rank 34 THM here. I've been grinding with about 10 other people for the past few weeks now, currently we are ranks 32-36 grinding on level 50+ mobs. We have two glad tanks that rarely lose hate (and people go all out, aoe heals, omg pew pew dmg, etc). When a non-tank dies, it's almost always because:

A. The dps or healers decide to pull the next mob when people aren't ready.
B. The dps or healers walk in range of some horible aoe, usually without pro or shell.

I think the enmity in this game is fine, and guess what? It requires people to pay attention and use some thought. If you're gonna just blast away without caring, at least boost your VIT. When party members die, it slows the entire party down.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2010 8:08am by SilkWyrm
#17 Nov 02 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
I disagree. While I respect your sentiments since they are true for the vast majority of online games, the aggro system in FFXIV seems somewhat erratic. I'm sure there's logic and reason to the whole thing, but as it stands it's pretty baffling to note that myself, a low level Conjurer, can somehow still steal aggro from a high level Pugilist dealing insane amounts of damage to a monster. All with a single cast of Sacrifice. Again, it might be down to a multitude of other hidden factors, but as it stands im still convinced it's not working entirely as planned.


I think the devs may have said that's something they were working on, but I could be mistaken.



lodestone wrote:
Q. What is the development team doing in the way of balancing battle?
A. Without straying from our original stance to provide players with a feasible means to play solo, we are working on improvements to the battle system that will make party play just as rewarding. One of the reasons players have little motivation to form a party is because there are currently few battles that require contriving a detailed plan of attack. To rectify this, we are currently conducting adjustments to areas such as enmity distribution rates and Battle Regimen effects. We will also be introducing several powerful creatures that will be better suited for party-based battles.


Edited, Nov 2nd 2010 11:11am by Olorinus
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#18 Nov 02 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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first thing would be, wait until healers can target party members by clicking on names, you'll get plenty more heals then.

Second, threat level feels kinda broken right now, its being worked on. these aren't really long term problems.

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#19 Nov 02 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sounds to me like you are the typical bad DPS players that doesn't know how to play the game. If I were a healer I would let you die too until you either played better or quit my group.

There are only two ways you can be taking damage:

1. You are pulling agro
2. You are being hit by an AE

If #1 then it is your fault, period.

If #2 then you need to get closer to the healer to get his AE heals. If you are already taking AE damage then it shouldn't matter if you stand a bit closer to the healer.

Either #1 or #2, it is your fault. You are the type of player that all healers hate, and I am certain that healer is making you the laughing stock of whatever group of folks he is telling the story to right now.

You are "that stupid Archer" in his story. Congratulations.

#20 Nov 02 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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It's funny because I was telling a stupid archer story in another thread... hope it wasn't you - but seriously - the person I was partying with kept being the first to draw hate from a mob... rather than waiting for a tank to pull the mob they were just pew pew pew pew, and I tried to move around to hit them with my AOE but I was way more interested in debuffing the mob and preserving the life of our R17 tank than tabbing around looking for the archer who never stopped shooting, never healed himself, and never got close enough to any of the three healers to save his own ****.
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#21 Nov 02 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Aggro is borked, don't even go there. When I was leveling arc (took it to 26) I would at times pull aggro after a string of misses.
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