Forum Settings
       
This thread is locked

Stop Flaming PlayersFollow

#52 Nov 07 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
preludes wrote:
Quote:
This is what is making the Zam suck right now. Face it man, this isn't a site for people who hate FFXIV - it is a site for people who like it. You're ruining this community, and it isn't funny. Don't take your anger out on people who are enjoying the game. It isn't my fault you spent money on the game.


In total honesty, it's neither. This is a forum to discuss the game for better or worse as directed by the majority of it's posters, this is not a fanboi forum because if it was anyone that said anything negative would of been banned, ie. ffxivcore.


This is a forum to discuss what the owners and moderators say it exists to discuss. If you think it's anything other than that, you're misinformed.
#53 Nov 07 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Xclusive215 wrote:


[...]
Reason 1
Information:
Hopefully the game of my dreams one day will become the game of my dreams, but I might not have enough nights left to see that...

Reason 2
Entertainment:
Zam forums for ffxi were known as a source for great information..
Zam forums for ffxiv are known for a great source of drama and **************

Reason 3
Gratification:
After wasting $80 and being so dissapointed with this game in it's current state, [b]I think the only pleasure I might get now, is watching this game crash and burn. That would bring my opinions validation and closure. Hey at least I'm honest right??? Just trying to get my moneys worth. Instead of looking forward to the magical update/patch.. I will be one of the people saying "I told you so"..


[...]


Xclusive215, I'm going to use your post as an example. This isn't about you--your reasons just really illustrate a couple of things:

I stopped even looking at the Allakhazam forums a long time ago because of the bolded part of Reason #2 you stated with one slight twist. The twist is that Zam forums back then for ANYTHING were known as a great source of drama and ******** as well as info, but the signal to noise was so high that it was really not worth the time to sift through it. Obviously the bolded part of Reason 2 comes about because of the bolded part Reason 3, so what will happen? The people who come here specifically for the game will leave and actually go to a more focused or controlled fansite because the others who are still hanging around but do not like the game are not going to be there.

Does this actually hurt the game? No, because Zam forums is what will develop a bad reputation (again) out of this, not the game. What would the reputation be? That a gaming site trying to cover too many games can't moderate their forums effectively because they're trying to appeal to too many people. Why am I so sure? Because this has happened before.

Bottom line: All the hate is really doing is driving site traffic for this portion of the site away. It's like bombarding a town with a nuke just to blow up a house and saying you accomplished your goal of destroying the house.
#54 Nov 07 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Guys, this is not about letting people only speak positively about the game, allowing people to flame those complaining, or anything like that. Allow me to paraphrase:
Keep. It. Civil.
If someone is excessively flaming someone complaining about the game, report it.
If someone is excessively flaming someone praising the game, report it.
If someone is crossing the line with flaming or personal attacks period, report it.

Pikko is not wrong in saying there have been too many ad hominem attacks and entire threads being blanket karma bombed lately. The forums have taken a very hostile, negative air lately, and that's never fun to deal with. I totally understand the frustrations with XIV and SE; I have many myself. But there have been too many "extreme" cases of what Pikko is talking about. We as admins like helping and building the community. We don't like having to be babysitters. Let's just please keep it civil, guys...


Regarding karma bombing, I was going to make my own thread about this. However, I've had a pretty long, busy, drunk weekend and Pikko covered it here, but I'd like to add my own blurb.
I've seen too many threads be blindly karma bombed by certain users lately. I've already NORATE'd (removed ability to rate) about 4-5 users in the last few weeks for this. Most temporarily, some...not so temporarily. And there are still users who I know to be doing this who I haven't gotten around to yet.
This is an abuse of the karma system. I suggest people look over the rules regarding karma. If you go into a thread, particularly a thread that is trying to have a productive discussion, and rate every single post down regardless of content, you are abusing the karma system. If you make it a point to rate down (or up) everything a given user posts, you're going to be looked at for karma camping. We have very handy tools to look at rate history. It's easy for us to see when it happens. Don't do it.


Bottom line guys... let's have a productive community here. The game may not be going so well, but that's not reason not to act civilly. I miss these days...



Xenosan wrote:
Admins;

Instead of a Complaints topic how about a Complaints/Flame board and simply move flame threads into it. KI used that setup for FFXI and it worked fine, for the most part keeps everyone happy and the General Discussion Forum clean and neat. (During DRG and RNG nerfs it was common for half of the post in General Discuss to be moved to Flame Wars because that's where those topics led). Just an idea I wanted to toss out there


I believe it's been requested before, but you'll want to post that idea here.
#55 Nov 07 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
A lot of clarification has been done on my behalf, so I won't really comment specifically on my OP, but a lot of you need to go look up what "ad hominem" means.

It's interesting though, that people who have been doing some of the offending are here raising a huge stink on how unfair it is that I didn't specifically say I'd protect the people who are causing harm to this community. It really just shows why this post had to be made in the first place. Believe me, I didn't want to make it because moderating forums for me is like asking me to stick my hand in a pot of boiling water, but the flaming has made it necessary. When people start telling you that they can't bear to read your fan-site forum because of the mood, well, something's wrong there.
#56 Nov 07 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,416 posts
It's the same small group of people that are causing all the problems here. I actually tip my hat to the MOD's for taking some proactive steps during all of this. Because of this small group, a good portion of contributing posters have stopped posting here all together. Lessening Zam's informative status by a good deal. If i didn't know any better, i'd think this small group is intentionally trying to accomplish this very thing.
I'm all for a heated debate on game issues, but to see good constructive threads, and threads that have no contreversy in them get rated down for no real reason is disgusting. It keeps people from posting anything for fear of getting karma bombed.
____________________________

#57 Nov 07 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
12 posts
I'm not a smart man so i'm gonna simplify this for my self
Say we have this forum for pie , and ppl come here and post about what pie they like and what pie they don't and maybe some ideas that can make another pie better. So know we have some ppl that like cake but wanted to try pie and didn't like pie so went back to cake and are now rating ppl down on the pie forums cause they like pie. Now one of the bakers are upset that the cake ppl are rating the pie ppl down for no good reason and warned the cake ppl not to attack the pie ppl and now the cake ppl are upset at the baker? or am I lost?
____________________________


#58 Nov 07 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
*
152 posts
Punchdrunk55 wrote:
I'm not a smart man so i'm gonna simplify this for my self
Say we have this forum for pie , and ppl come here and post about what pie they like and what pie they don't and maybe some ideas that can make another pie better. So know we have some ppl that like cake but wanted to try pie and didn't like pie so went back to cake and are now rating ppl down on the pie forums cause they like pie. Now one of the bakers are upset that the cake ppl are rating the pie ppl down for no good reason and warned the cake ppl not to attack the pie ppl and now the cake ppl are upset at the baker? or am I lost?



I have no idea but now I want some apple pie with whipped cream on top.
#59 Nov 07 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
28 posts
Pikko wrote:
For people that have quit, plan to quit, or just flat out stay here because they're bitter about the game, this is your notice that you are not to outright flame existing players just because they play the game. I am sick and tired of our community members being berated for liking something others don't.

If this happens to you without provocation, please use the report function and the offending post may be nuked if deemed to be harmful to our community. I would like to clarify that negative opinions *on the game itself* are still permitted, but ad hominem attacks of other ZAM members simply for playing/liking/enjoying an aspect of the game is no longer acceptable.

I'm pointing to you guys that have been rating down the Weekend Accomplishment threads. Cut it out.


Sooooo are we talking about flaming or rating down post? (which are not the same thing)
#60 Nov 07 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
I just had to go nuke a bunch of posts in the "Say something nice thread" because some troll went and spewed venom in it. And people rated that guy up. It's sad, really, when people are so mad at the game that they rate someone up for spitting venomous bile at people and also rate people down for posting something nice. This is the sad state of our general forum.
#61 Nov 07 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
Thegorgatron wrote:
Pikko wrote:
For people that have quit, plan to quit, or just flat out stay here because they're bitter about the game, this is your notice that you are not to outright flame existing players just because they play the game. I am sick and tired of our community members being berated for liking something others don't.

If this happens to you without provocation, please use the report function and the offending post may be nuked if deemed to be harmful to our community. I would like to clarify that negative opinions *on the game itself* are still permitted, but ad hominem attacks of other ZAM members simply for playing/liking/enjoying an aspect of the game is no longer acceptable.

I'm pointing to you guys that have been rating down the Weekend Accomplishment threads. Cut it out.


Sooooo are we talking about flaming or rating down post? (which are not the same thing)


It's both really, because I assumed that the rate-downs on that specific thread were "attacks" on Aurelius himself, completely ignoring what the thread content had. Unless someone can give me a really convincing reason why asking people what they plan to do on the weekend is a bad thing?
#62 Nov 07 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,825 posts
Aurelius wrote:
This is a forum to discuss what the owners and moderators say it exists to discuss. If you think it's anything other than that, you're misinformed.


So many people never understand that fact... I wish more did, it would make my life as a mod on other sites so much easier.
____________________________
FFXI:Sylph - Perrin 75 Hume THF; Retired (At least from my use any way)
EVE Online:ScraperX; Retired
WAR:IronClaw- Peryn SW;SkullThrone- Grymloc BO; Retired


#63 Nov 07 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
**
465 posts
Pikko wrote:
I just had to go nuke a bunch of posts in the "Say something nice thread" because some troll went and spewed venom in it. And people rated that guy up. It's sad, really, when people are so mad at the game that they rate someone up for spitting venomous bile at people and also rate people down for posting something nice. This is the sad state of our general forum.

The way this game is, people are annoyed (to various degrees), almost universally. This heightens everyone's emotions, and unfortunately that includes a crowd that can be abusive.

Assuming you guys keep up your response to it, I'm sure things will eventually be okay.
____________________________
Lodestone
#64 Nov 07 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
***
2,815 posts
Quote:
This is the sad state of our general forum.


Pikko,

might want to consider the fact that it's a problem of FFXIV, not your forums.
I know some people are being trolls but I find most 'negative' posts are doing nothing but declaring the truth. Or just trying to converse about their disappointment in a game they had high hopes for, in a place filled with other FFXIV fans. Isn't that the point of a general forum? You can't pick and choose what the general population has to say.

Trying to stop rate-down junkies and people with empty posts meant only to start a fight is one thing.
Trying to blame the negative moods on the forum on 'the complainers', is another.

I've been rated down plenty over the past months, while I always try to present logical arguments and constructive points to a debate (kind of like now, and already I'm down-rated). **** I even started getting rated down just for posting completely harmless replies to even chit-chat topics. Clearly people on the "everything is fine" side are just as troll-y as the people you're blaming for the mood. This is one reason it's BS you only pointed the finger at the 'complainers'. You don't say a word when they rate down the unpopular opinion no matter how valid, while they rate up the "this game rocks" posts. That's a heavy double standard.

The mood is negative because the game is negative. The whole internet generally agrees on that, it's not just here.

Rather than try to force the truth into one section called "complaints", the more logical solution is make a section called "Nothing but happy" where the people that want to live in the lie that everything's sunshine and daisies can go and live in a bubble of ignorance.

You're trying to force a GENERAL forum, into accommodating to a minority of people that think the game is golden. The GENERAL consensus is the game is a steaming pile at the moment. So that's what is filling the GENERAL forum. It's just reflecting the GENERAL experience of most people as they try to enjoy the game behind the mountain of negatives.

Failing to accept this is the force behind the negativity, is the real problem.
It's got nothing to do with trolling. or some deliberate attempt at darkening the mood.

I look at the GENERAL forum as a barometer of the game as a whole. You can't say the negativity isn't representative of the current state of the game, with player numbers crashing sharply. If the people complaining about the negative mood really are that bothered, let them go exist in a special happy forum section. While those who can face the facts, be them good or bad, continue to exist in the GENERAL forum, where the true face of the state of the game belongs.

The general forums will be happy when the general audience is happy. Final word.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 3:42pm by RattyBatty
____________________________
Minecraft : My anti-MMO
Terraria : My anti-Minecraft
#65 Nov 07 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
260 posts
In minor defense of Aurelius: Ya he can be abrasive in his responses. We've gone round before (mainly due a misunderstanding on my part of what he was saying) I've rated him down because of his attitude, but I have also rated him up for his information. Also, he is far from a fan boy. He may not be a vocal detractor of the game and therefore doesn't tend to fall into the 'FFXIV SUCKS' group but if you read his posts he has plenty to say about what doesn't work properly. I could easily have let that turn into a nerdrage war with a person I don't even know. I stepped back, took a breath, and now find myself using information I've gleaned from him.

***** karma. I was a sage, oddly enough I don't feel any differnt as a scholar and when I get sub defaulted on a post (as this one probably will) believe me when I tell you I don't lose any sleep over it.

Its the interwebs boys and girls, regardless of whether you love the game or hate it, we're all just here to escape from real life. Lets make it pleasant

-Teeg
____________________________
Why do gnats drop rat tails and lemurs drop gnat wings?
#66 Nov 07 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
704 posts
I do not know if this thread started a rate down riot or what, but all of a sudden it seems like all the post in the FFXIV feedback forums are being rated down as well. The funny thing is, this is where the post are suppose to go and generally most post seem to be constructive suggestions for SE.

Most of the complaint post about FFXIV do not bother me at all. It is pretty easy for me to understand that most of these people are people who want to like FFXIV and are disappointed that they don't like it. They are still here because they due truely hope it will get better or have no place else to go because FFXIV was suppose to be there home (I had not played a MMO in 6 months while waiting for FFXIV). There are a few clear trolls though, who seem to do nothing by post negative or flame with no constructive suggestions or criticisms at all...
#67 Nov 07 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
RattyBatty, that's just an excuse to be malicious. Are you really saying that I am wrong for trying to get people to just be nice? It should be understood that in general, we are always open to defending ANYONE from trolls, but my post is specifically telling people that flame fans of the game and not the game itself to cut it out.
#68 Nov 07 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
393 posts
Well...because of their nifty powerrrrr, the Admins are well aware of the select few people who troll the forums and karma-bomb everyone with no rhyme or reason. So from now on I will treat the situation like cave bots: report and move on. I might be right, or I might be wrong. But that is up to the Admins to decide.
____________________________
Smilies for premium users only? Bah, I'll just...oh wait.
へ へ
の の
 も
 へ

#69 Nov 07 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
This basically sums it up:

Screenshot
#70 Nov 07 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,416 posts
Pikko wrote:
This basically sums it up:

Screenshot



And....Party on dudes!
____________________________

#71 Nov 07 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
***
2,815 posts
Quote:
RattyBatty, that's just an excuse to be malicious. Are you really saying that I am wrong for trying to get people to just be nice? It should be understood that in general, we are always open to defending ANYONE from trolls, but my post is specifically telling people that flame fans of the game and not the game itself to cut it out.

Well all this time I was advocating for better change to the game, turns out I was being malicious! Glad I posted enough in the last months to fill a small book, all in the name of malice.
All I'm saying is, the blame goes both ways, and you only put it one way. It would have been fine if you also said "Fanboys stop flaming negative posts".
That's my point. It was a very one sided threat.

Even in your reply it's still clear you have a specific beef with people being militantly negative, while ignoring the equal problem of those being militantly positive.

I agree, we should all just let everyone have their say. If you don't like reading positive posts, or negative posts, just let them be and stop telling each other to shut up about their own opinion, trying to rate them into invisibility, or derail the topic at hand.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 4:40pm by RattyBatty
____________________________
Minecraft : My anti-MMO
Terraria : My anti-Minecraft
#72 Nov 07 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
Zorvan wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Reebie wrote:
If i rate down its not because of someone liking the game, I'm still playing it too. :P Theres always a reason though.

Anyone want a rate up? (lol j/k)


There isn't always a reason. Some people are just rating down anyone that doesn't bash the game. Kind of sad really.


To be fair, there are also those who rate down any post that doesn't heap praise on the game.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 12:44am by Zorvan


True, but it seems pretty lopsided in the negative direction. According to the way my posts are rated, I get a LOT smarter when I have some thing negative to say about the game than when I have some thing positive to say about it. This trend has been going on for about a month now.

To be fair, this is just the other side of the coin from what was happening in beta, where any one who had a negative opinion was getting karma bombed, in some cases by people who hadn't even played the game. I doubt it's the same people who were responsible for both trends.
#73 Nov 07 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
To elaborate, you said that being upset about the game is why people are being mean. Is this why it should be ok? Because FFXIV sucks it's ok to claw at each others' eyes? That is just an excuse.

Sure, I admit, I should have said it goes both ways, but no one has complained to me directly about this. I've gotten a few PMs from people who are being belittled for liking the game.

And don't make like I'm targeting all your posting in the past, because you know very well that's not what I meant.
#74 Nov 07 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
*
105 posts
A lot of debate over a simple request to be civil and intelligent while posting.

#75 Nov 07 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
Yeah, apparently it's a lot to ask.
#76 Nov 07 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,218 posts
crushgroove wrote:
A lot of debate over a simple request to be civil and intelligent while posting.



We in the ZAM forums could turn "the sky is blue" into a 10 page argument.
#77 Nov 07 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
**
519 posts
im a victim/ or whatever you wanna call it of this myself
my last 10 or so threads ive seen all my threads at good/excellent including all the posts i made in said threads such as why ffxiv needs mail and others

then without me even posting in the thread for a day or two ill check the thread when its on page 2-3 ect just to see if someone posted something i missed and magicly everything that was good/excellent is suddenly default with maybe a few decents...

now THATS karma bombing.. when your not even active in the thread and someone de rates you and then logs onto their sock accounts to derate you a few more times



though i do have some ideas on the karma system such as if someone downrates alot or uprates alots then there ratings dont count til they give an equal number of opposite ratings..

i cant remember what forum it was but i used to post on another forum that was like this "youve givin to many positive ratings please try again after giving a few negative"

and vice versa

edit : oh and it wasnt limited to rating 1 person it was rating in general you couldnt just uprate everyone in the thread you only could do like 5 and either wait til midnight and votes reset or earn more positive votes by giving some negatives..or vice versa again

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 4:05pm by Galkaholics
____________________________
FFXI 75rdm 75 war 37 blm 37whm 56mnk 32 blu (Temporarily Retired)

FFXIV Rabanastre: Lolita Conplex deleted. misfits ls used me gave em all my stuff being a good guildie then they riddiculed me til i quit.. stay away from

#78 Nov 07 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*
197 posts
There's always a way to argue with someone in a decent way, without being vulgar, without the low blows while hiding behind anonymity on the internet. I guess being nice is too much of an effort for some.
#79 Nov 07 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,636 posts
crushgroove wrote:
A lot of debate over a simple request to be civil and intelligent while posting.




Actually, and this is ratty's point which seems to be missed, is that only the people who don't like the game were asked to be civil. Another admin has come in and clarified that this move does in fact affect everyone, however Pikko's OP and most of her replies target only people who are flaming people who like the game, and seemingly condoning or ignoring people who call me a moron for wasting my time with a game I'm not in love with.


In short, this thread said 'if you dont like FFXIV play nice', instead of 'everyone play nice'
____________________________


#80 Nov 07 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
Just a note, please stop the whole karma system scrapping discussion. Scrapping the system is a decision so far over the heads of any XIV admin that there is just no point in mentioning it to us at all. Believe me, your karma system complaint is the 2,999,455,122th one we've heard.

The day it's gone will be a day I go running up and down my street screaming in joy, but until that day comes, I just have to bear with it and so do all of you.
#81 Nov 07 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
**
519 posts
Briker wrote:
There's always a way to argue with someone in a decent way, without being vulgar, without the low blows while hiding behind anonymity on the internet. I guess being nice is too much of an effort for some.

hehe im never annonymous on the internet ive giving my myspace ect many times which then you can see my address and cell number if your added to friends

im the one who sees the "internet tough guys" who make threats. and i give them my address and home phone and dare them to come to my house....

one time i had a brick thrown thru my window but other then that no ones ever showed up to back up their words...

but so is the way of the internet. people like to hide and everyone is a completely diffrent person on the internet
example

my little sister.. 25 yrs old. doesnt play mmos or anything but if a myspace/facebook junkie

IRL she is a extreme pacifist and quiet and when theres trouble is the first to slink away quietly into the background//

yet on myspace ect she gets in major flame wars with other girls especialy over ex boyfriends ect

such is the internets
____________________________
FFXI 75rdm 75 war 37 blm 37whm 56mnk 32 blu (Temporarily Retired)

FFXIV Rabanastre: Lolita Conplex deleted. misfits ls used me gave em all my stuff being a good guildie then they riddiculed me til i quit.. stay away from

#82 Nov 07 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
In short, this thread said 'if you dont like FFXIV play nice', instead of 'everyone play nice'


And as I said, no one has PMed me to say "I'm being called a ****** for liking WoW in the XIV forums and it's ruining my experience on ZAM." I've gotten several PMs of the other sort.

I don't read everything. Most of the time if you want me to be aware of a certain issue, you have to PM me or post in a thread like this one that I'm actively posting in. Sure, what I said does apply to everyone, but I targeted a specific group in my OP because complaints were lodged about that specific group. So yes:

EVERYONE PLAY NICE.
#83 Nov 07 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
**
519 posts
Pikko wrote:
Just a note, please stop the whole karma system scrapping discussion. Scrapping the system is a decision so far over the heads of any XIV admin that there is just no point in mentioning it to us at all. Believe me, your karma system complaint is the 2,999,455,122th one we've heard.

The day it's gone will be a day I go running up and down my street screaming in joy, but until that day comes, I just have to bear with it and so do all of you.

so you hate the complaints but encourage us to report them to you at the same time... and also never seem to d anything about karma camping unless its a seriious case like someoe with 10+ socks on same ip
____________________________
FFXI 75rdm 75 war 37 blm 37whm 56mnk 32 blu (Temporarily Retired)

FFXIV Rabanastre: Lolita Conplex deleted. misfits ls used me gave em all my stuff being a good guildie then they riddiculed me til i quit.. stay away from

#84 Nov 07 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
Well, I hate doing inventory reports at work too, but I have to do them anyway. What is your point, exactly?
#85 Nov 07 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
This is the most ridiculous post I have read from an administrator in a good while. So what I have read from this thread and what everyone can infer from how threads have been going is that its ok for people who like the game to sing its praises all over the boards but when people are dissatisfied they have to post in one special thread.


I fully agree with Pikko on this.

Our general forum is meant to be a place for constructive or entertaining discussion about the game. This is not meant to be a rubbish bin of mindless rants and tirades. We don't have any problem with discussions about new ideas about how the game could be better. Note, Pikko's post does not prohibit constructive conversation from taking place.

Let me show you an example of the difference between mindless ranting and constructive discussion.

- Mindless rant: Arrrgh I'm quitting because this game needs an AH and nothing will save this Hindenberg of an RPG!

- Constructive discussion: Here's an idea of something SE could do in place of an AH... (describe idea here).

Or...

- Constructive discussion: Here's an idea of how SE could implement the AH into the game in a way that gels with the market wards.... (describe idea here).

Or...

- If you really are against the market wards and believe there should be an AH, then consider posting in the FFXIV feedback forum or the complaint thread, because we've already seen countless inidividual threads from people decrying the market wards.


We are all allowed to discuss the flaws of the game on the general forum, but it needs to be done in a more rational and thoughtful manner. It needs to be a discussion, not a raging rant. Rather than just spew venom about stuff, offer suggestions for how it could be fixed. Use your heads and come up with innovative solutions that would make for interesting discussions. And, for the love of god, stop beating dead horses! If there have already been several threads covering your topic, then there's no need to make another one.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#86 Nov 07 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
**
519 posts
Pikko wrote:
Well, I hate doing inventory reports at work too, but I have to do them anyway. What is your point, exactly?


my point? well its just what i said , you encourage us to report karma campers but you never do anything abt it and said for yourself its the 29billionth blah blah blah ect report

my proof.. old PM's from admins from back when i used to report karma campers.. all you ever do is say "oh blah blah thata how the system works" or just copy/paste the karma system and pm it back to me...

so i stopped complaining abt karma bombing long ago so why do you engourage us to report it if you DONT DO ANYTHING ABT IT

^ above.. not rage just making sure you can read that part clearly
____________________________
FFXI 75rdm 75 war 37 blm 37whm 56mnk 32 blu (Temporarily Retired)

FFXIV Rabanastre: Lolita Conplex deleted. misfits ls used me gave em all my stuff being a good guildie then they riddiculed me til i quit.. stay away from

#87 Nov 07 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
No, I said to report posts, using the Report Post function. They're two different things.
#88 Nov 07 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
**
519 posts
Pikko wrote:
No, I said to report posts, using the Report Post function. They're two different things.

so basicly karma campers remain untouchable as we cant report them unless they specificly tel us they are karma camping us. you just want us to report ppl who flame us for still playing?

____________________________
FFXI 75rdm 75 war 37 blm 37whm 56mnk 32 blu (Temporarily Retired)

FFXIV Rabanastre: Lolita Conplex deleted. misfits ls used me gave em all my stuff being a good guildie then they riddiculed me til i quit.. stay away from

#89 Nov 07 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
Avatar
*
165 posts
Lol, all this just cause an Admin invited people to be polite. Guess is asking too much.
____________________________
"Make something idiot proof... someone will create a better idiot"
#90 Nov 07 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
RattyBatty wrote:
The mood is negative because the game is negative. The whole internet generally agrees on that, it's not just here.

Rather than try to force the truth into one section called "complaints", the more logical solution is make a section called "Nothing but happy" where the people that want to live in the lie that everything's sunshine and daisies can go and live in a bubble of ignorance.


This is really at the heart of most of the flaming and raging and dysfunction right now, imo. You're taking a situation with a handful of people at polar opposites in terms of their impression of the game with a ton of people somewhere in between and you're separating them into two distinct camps. Or to put it differently, you're taking a situation with many shades of gray and trying to distill it all into a black and white situation and when you do that and then start applying labels to people according to your own manufactured reality, they start to get ****** off.

Someone says, "There are things about the game that I really don't like right now but there are also things that enjoy and I'm trying to focus on those while I wait for SE to address the rest." And then someone else comes along and says, "You're a fanboi because you think the game is perfect."

What?

Do you have any idea how hard it is for me to come across and see stuff like that and not start tossing out labels of my own that may or may not include 'stupid', 'moron' and 'semi-literate'? Believe it or not I do try. And then I go to another thread and I see the same thing. And then the next thread. And then the next. And sooner or later I just can't help myself. And I'm not the only one who feels that way. And it's not because I think anyone who doesn't like the game is somehow lacking...it's because one person makes a statement and someone else comes along, disregards half of that statement and then starts applying labels that don't fit.

Like you did in the part I quoted.

Quote:
You're trying to force a GENERAL forum, into accommodating to a minority of people that think the game is golden. The GENERAL consensus is the game is a steaming pile at the moment. So that's what is filling the GENERAL forum. It's just reflecting the GENERAL experience of most people as they try to enjoy the game behind the mountain of negatives.


It's not trying to accommodate a minority. The minority you're referring to will benefit from what the admins you're trying to do, but so too will the people who are just as aware as you are of the games shortcomings but still find enough to enjoy for the time being that they're willing to stick it out for at least a little while longer and see what happens. Those are the people you're discounting when you're rushing to try and force people into your own narrow categories.

I don't care if you find entertainment value in the game or not. And I don't care if you think I'm some sort of ****** because there are things in the game that I enjoy despite the things that I dislike. What I do care about is someone like you coming along and telling me I think something when I've already told you that I don't. And it starts to cross the line when others like you who refuse to acknowledge the gray areas take it upon themselves to try and stomp out any positive discussion or community interaction around the game.

Stop funneling people into your own little camps. Stop twisting what people say to suit YOUR notion of what you think everyone should be saying about the game. It's not all black and white. Stop trying to make it so.
#91 Nov 07 2010 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
This is not a thread about karma, this is a thread about flaming and the attitude that people are using the rating system with. You can't really effectively report a karma camper unless it's BLATANTLY obvious that your karma is suffering because you can't see who rated you down.

Most of the time we see direct complaints about a specific post, the person has only been rated down once or twice. Then after they ***** about karma, THAT'S when they really feel it.
#92 Nov 07 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
**
707 posts
I think once people start to pay for the game, and support a company that releases nothing but **** (DS games excepted) for 7 years we can start to at least ignite some matches under their feet.

Many are probably in denial, this is one of the stages. Others may see potential, and want to keep playing "just in case". But as an avid gamer (who loved FFXI, and respected/enjoyed WoW btw) it's glaringly obvious that FFXIV is uninspired, uninteresting, obnoxious time-sink of a game that brings nothing innovative, nothing that encourages community, and nothing that suggests it will magically get better after a patch.

It's fundamentally craptastic and those who disagree I'd like to hear why :( Crafting? Or Leves? OH, we could craft. LETS DO SOME LEVES. Wanna craft? etc.
____________________________
Life is adventure...or nothing.
Entreri
Server: Seraph
COP 08/20/06 <3
75THF /75BRD - Rank:10 Windurst
~X's Knife 2/2~
#93 Nov 07 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
Be civil, think before you post, and don't maliciously attack and verbally abuse people because there is a difference in opinion. Check. Seems like reasonable adult behavior to me. I guess some people need to be told. :/

I don't use it much, but I like the karma system. Admittedly, I didn't really understand it until I found the link to the forum rules in this thread. It's a fun mini-game about a persons ability to express cohesive ideas and relate to a topic in a constructive way.

Side note: I consider it constructive even if someone disagrees with an idea in an intelligent and diplomatic manner.

It's unfortunate that some people are misusing the system. It's like a level 75 running around in North Gustaberg and killing all the lizards and saplings over and over again just to be d!ck$ while I'm trying to raise my level 5 job.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 5:55pm by mattkujata
____________________________

I started this character at the CE launch, and played for about 2 months. Haven't touched it since.
#94 Nov 07 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
It's not complicated guys...I've been pretty vocal about this game from the get go, but I choose which threads to debate my case. Pikko's right here, there's no need to go in the weekend accomplishment thread and karma bomb + make ridiculous comments there. That gets you no where, what the **** you supposed to debate there? "No, I don't think you should try to hit that level today!".

If someone's talking about a certain game mechanic, ya, go in that thread, and civilly state your case. I don't like this for X reason, SE should probably do this. I don't think they mind that too much, and for the most part, we all get along. I can see the admins point though, when EVERY thread has people coming into it and giving pessimistic remarks when it has NOTHING to do with the subject, well it's trolling.

Use some common sense and constructive criticism and I'm sure there will be zero issues with you posting negative feedback on certain aspects of the game in the appropriate threads.
____________________________

#95 Nov 07 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
**
519 posts
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
EVERY thread has people coming into it and giving pessimistic remarks when it has NOTHING to do with the subject, well it's trolling.

Use some common sense and constructive criticism and I'm sure there will be zero issues with you posting negative feedback on certain aspects of the game in the appropriate threads.

unfortunately this will never happen
trolls have existed since BBS and IRC and will forever exist

i get the whole asking ppl nicely not to troll. but the entire thread is an exercise in futility. i mean seriously.. there probably just as many troll responses as there are serious ones in this thread alone which was made by an admin

and if an admin gets trolled what makes them possibly think non admin posters wont also be trolled or flamed



Edited, Nov 7th 2010 5:02pm by Galkaholics
____________________________
FFXI 75rdm 75 war 37 blm 37whm 56mnk 32 blu (Temporarily Retired)

FFXIV Rabanastre: Lolita Conplex deleted. misfits ls used me gave em all my stuff being a good guildie then they riddiculed me til i quit.. stay away from

#96 Nov 07 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Default
*
169 posts
Pikko, I kind of hope you and the other mods at least take the time to read through the threads to get a better understanding of whats going on before just out right sub-defaulting people like someone did to me yesterday when if that someone had put some time and effort into reading the thread, they would of seen I was not trolling or berating anyone, infact, it was the complete oppisite....However, I am not a child and the rating system lost its appeal to me many many years ago.

Rating systems are not a true indication of what kind of person you are. People will always have haters following them when opinions clash, I just can't be bothered in reporting people and I only rate people up, unless someone is being racist. If I don't agree with someone, I just simply, don't agree.


Edited, Nov 7th 2010 6:09pm by Taemek
#97 Nov 07 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
I will nuke trolling, just like I did in the "say something nice" thread. Someone decided that it was ok to call everyone in the thread "pathetic" for trying to say something nice about the game. And like I said, some people rated that person up.
#98 Nov 07 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
Taemek, admins are not supposed to karma bomb. The most I ever rate a post is twice and that's maybe 1/20 times.
#99 Nov 07 2010 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
**
519 posts
Taemek wrote:
Pikko, I kind of hope you and the other mods at least take the time to read through the threads to get a better understanding of whats going on before just out right sub-defaulting people like someone did to me yesterday when if that someone had put some time and effort into reading the thread, they would of seen I was not trolling or berating anyone, infact, it was the complete oppisite....However, I am not a child and the rating system lost its appeal to me many many years ago.

Rating systems are not a true indication of what kind of person you are. People will always have haters following them when opinions clash, I just can't be bothered in reporting people and I only rate people up, unless someone is being racist. If I don't agree with someone, I just simply, don't agree.


Edited, Nov 7th 2010 6:09pm by Taemek

the admins dont sub default you.. its the other posters that do that... admins make you dissapear
____________________________
FFXI 75rdm 75 war 37 blm 37whm 56mnk 32 blu (Temporarily Retired)

FFXIV Rabanastre: Lolita Conplex deleted. misfits ls used me gave em all my stuff being a good guildie then they riddiculed me til i quit.. stay away from

#100 Nov 07 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,815 posts
Quote:

Actually, and this is ratty's point which seems to be missed, is that only the people who don't like the game were asked to be civil. Another admin has come in and clarified that this move does in fact affect everyone, however Pikko's OP and most of her replies target only people who are flaming people who like the game, and seemingly condoning or ignoring people who call me a moron for wasting my time with a game I'm not in love with.

+10.
At least one person still computed the meaning of words instead of just wait for their turn to repeat themselves.

Ps: Do you see how every post I made in this thread is downrated? I'd like an admin to tell me that any of these posts weren't well thought out and logical arguments, or otherqize non-constructive, thus worthy of a rate-down. Where's the admin threat against those people, who rate me down not because I'm being an ***, but because I present an unpopular argument. And others like me.
Aren't those people doing exactly what your OP is saying to stop doing? Where's their consequence?

As one of your quality posters (yes, even if you hate my opinions, i take time to write them out as eloquently as possible, and try to be thought provoking and infortmative) what is my motivation to stick around this site in the face of this? I've been posting a lot less and am just about at the end of wasting my time, when the admins are more interested in preserving the face of SE, than protect meaningful discussion.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 6:44pm by RattyBatty
____________________________
Minecraft : My anti-MMO
Terraria : My anti-Minecraft
#101 Nov 07 2010 at 5:43 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
RattyBatty wrote:
Ps: Do you see how every post I made in this thread is downrated? I'd like an admin to tell me that any of these posts weren't well thought out and logical arguments, or otherqize non-constructive, thus worthy of a rate-down.


I'm not an admin, but this might not have helped you:

Quote:
Rather than try to force the truth into one section called "complaints", the more logical solution is make a section called "Nothing but happy" where the people that want to live in the lie that everything's sunshine and daisies can go and live in a bubble of ignorance.


Nothing logical in your assertion there. Nothing at all. And yes, when you generalize everyone who doesn't share your point of view on this particular subject as living a lie and suggesting they be given a bubble of ignorance in which to live doesn't exactly endear you to people.

At least when I'm a prick, I admit it.
This thread is locked
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 11 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (11)