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Stop Flaming PlayersFollow

#152 Nov 08 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know how this turned into a "not allowed to say bad things" thread.

The point was people flaming and karma bombing people for saying anything positive about the game.
It one thing to rate someone down and respond negatively to them when they say something off-topic, rude, or provide bad info. It's another to flame and karma bomb people for liking or not liking the game. The issue at present is the people who say something positive are the targets of this behavior. THAT'S why the warning was worded the way it was, not because anyone is saying we can't have a negative opinion about things in the game.
Personally attacking a member over them enjoying the game or not enjoying it, just because you feel the opposite is juvenile at best, it's like going out and yelling at dog owners because you think cats are better. You wouldn't do it, because it's downright stupid.
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#153 Nov 08 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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lol Pikko, you should have post your comment, and lock the thread :P
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#154 Nov 08 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, "I" wouldn't rate a thread down "just for the **** of it" but it's pretty hypocritical for an admin, who CANT be ratted down (no option) to post this. If it came from another true member of this community, with ALL strings attached, it would be different.
Manual *rate down*
(what? are you guy scared to find what the community REALLY thinks about you? at least don't default yourselves to "excellent" because trust me, you're not)


I don't think this would solve the larger issue of people in general just disagreeing with each other and sometimes taking it too far. In any event my takeaway from this thread (which is just getting comical at this stage with people even restating the OP in its entirety), is that we should all engage in more meaningful discussions, rather than just generally being unpleasant. Making admins rateable would be amusing, but ultimately counter-productive. I'm firmly in the camp that the system should go entirely. It's the only site I know of that has actual paid admins but relies on peer moderation.

When threads this are made it's not always understood that there is a difference between saying "I disagree with your idea and here's why" and "Your idea is stupid and you're an idiot". The former shouldn't be discouraged, and the latter should be handled at the administrator level. Maybe a thread addressing everyone in general as opposed to individuals in particular isn't the best way to handle this sort of issue..
#155 Nov 08 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Do you realize that rateable admins is not something any of us grunts make a decision about? Don't accuse me of "hiding" behind my admin status when I have ABSOLUTELY NO SAY in whether I get rated or not.
#156 Nov 08 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think its funny... this thread won't end. You guys are arguing about respecting someone's opinion. It is really ridiculous and I can see why Pikko made this thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinion (and I use that term loosely)
but JEEPERS KRIMENY give it a rest already! You can only beat a dead horse so many **** times!

I agree with Pikko you flamers are keeping people like me from wanting to post and interact with you... You people have justified the very existence of this thread! /twocents
#157 Nov 08 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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In regard to the original post, I completely agree. If a person has a complaint about the game, I will respect it, even if it's a "beating a dead horse" kind of complaint. The moment someone treads into "If you like this game, you are an idiot" territory, not only do I lose respect for your opinion, I lose respect for you. If you sincerely believe that having an opinion (even if it's the majority opinion) justifies you in forcing that opinion onto someone else, then you have a much larger problem than the game you're bashing does. (And, yes, for the record, that goes for people who like the game personally bashing those who don't as well.)
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#158 Nov 08 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Pikko wrote:
To elaborate, you said that being upset about the game is why people are being mean. Is this why it should be ok? Because FFXIV sucks it's ok to claw at each others' eyes? That is just an excuse.

Sure, I admit, I should have said it goes both ways, but no one has complained to me directly about this. I've gotten a few PMs from people who are being belittled for liking the game.

And don't make like I'm targeting all your posting in the past, because you know very well that's not what I meant.
I guess I could file a formal complaint the next time I see it happening, but I really don't mind (personally). It's a legitimate viewpoint to have, although I may personally call it an illogical one. I feel the same way about the case this thread is about too.

It seems to make sense though that the people who have a problem with negativity towards the game are more likely to complain to an admin though. I can see why negative posters are fine with having debatable threads while positive posters are annoyed by their presence. That doesn't give either side of the debate a pass, though.
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#159 Nov 08 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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I don't believe any of my comments have been out of line, though I've certainly enjoyed a few snarky jabs at the game. I imagine at least a few people may have been off put by comments I've made that could be inferred as indicating that there's "something wrong" with people who like the game.

So I just want to go on the record and say that I've been making every effort to be civil, and if I have put anyone off, then it was unintentional (unless you were being an *** first, in which case it was probably intentional). I'm not apologizing, just making my intent clear. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about actually liking the game. That's absurd, and if you're doing it, please cut it out.

Though as far as I can tell, it's mostly a few undersocialized people who are probably quite young. It seems indicative of common tribalism... the human urge to rally against enemies and reject those who don't rally with you. People with emotions that aren't well-controlled, resulting in anger at SE, and then turning to a mob mentality? You're with us, or against us? Sounds like adolescents to me!
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#160 Nov 08 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Pikko wrote:
Er, Lobi, I've hated the karma system since I started working here over six years ago. It got worse, IMO, when Rimesume led to the numbers being taken away, cause then people were flipping out over what was basically imaginary karma camping.


Yes but for years when this happened the admins would just shrug and say "we can't do anything about it". It's only in the specific instance of people rating down pro FFXIV posts and rating up anti FFXIV posts where the admins are actually telling people to knock it off.

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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#161 Nov 08 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't believe any of my comments have been out of line

Quote:
Though as far as I can tell, it's mostly a few undersocialized people who are probably quite young. It seems indicative of common tribalism... the human urge to rally against enemies and reject those who don't rally with you. People with emotions that aren't well-controlled, resulting in anger at SE, and then turning to a mob mentality? You're with us, or against us? Sounds like adolescents to me!

I hope everyone else enjoyed this post as much as I did.
#162 Nov 08 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Pikko wrote:
Er, Lobi, I've hated the karma system since I started working here over six years ago. It got worse, IMO, when Rimesume led to the numbers being taken away, cause then people were flipping out over what was basically imaginary karma camping.


Yes but for years when this happened the admins would just shrug and say "we can't do anything about it". It's only in the specific instance of people rating down pro FFXIV posts and rating up anti FFXIV posts where the admins are actually telling people to knock it off.



LOL
#163 Nov 08 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope everyone else enjoyed this post as much as I did.


What exactly is out of line about what I said? I never said I was going to be nice, just civil. And frankly, as someone in the social sciences, you have to be prepared to identify people's failings if you want to get anything done. Sometimes there just isn't a particularly nice way of doing it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#164 Nov 08 2010 at 11:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
I hope everyone else enjoyed this post as much as I did.


What exactly is out of line about what I said? I never said I was going to be nice, just civil. And frankly, as someone in the social sciences, you have to be prepared to identify people's failings if you want to get anything done. Sometimes there just isn't a particularly nice way of doing it.

Do you truly think you were speaking civilly when you generalized a diverse group of people who disagreed with you as undersocialized adolescents, whose inability to control their emotions leads them to foment a tribal mentality that excludes external influences and reinforces internal ones? Nobody disagreed for any other reason?

Your post was so condescending that I felt dirty reading it... and ****, I agree with you on the state of the game.

That's why your comment was funny. You bent over backwards in order to convince yourself that you were being civil, and then ended your post with a condescending Anthropology 101 analysis of why people disagree with you. Apparently they do it because they're adolescents stuck in the tribal phase of civilization development, and you know better than them. It's funny because you're doing the specific sort of thing that the thread in general is railing against: "Please stop flaming other posters because you disagree." "I'm making an effort to be civil, but if you don't agree with me, it's probably because you're an adolescent with emotional problems who cannot function with nuance in a modern society."
#165 Nov 08 2010 at 11:34 PM Rating: Default
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Do you truly think you were speaking civilly when you generalized a diverse group of people who disagreed with you as undersocialized adolescents, whose inability to control their emotions leads them to foment a tribal mentality that excludes external influences and reinforces internal ones? Nobody disagreed for any other reason?


You're clearly new around these parts so I'll cut you some slack.

1) I was talking about people that I agree with about the state of the game. If you'll poke around, you'll quickly find multiple posts by me that do not say nice things about FFXIV (all-ish of them).
2) I was talking specifically about a very small portion of the people in that group.

Quote:
I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about actually liking the game. That's absurd, and if you're doing it, please cut it out.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#166 Nov 09 2010 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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Interesting thread. Can't believe it's gone on for this long (although this may largely be due to some unfortunate wording in the original OP).

Personally, I haven't seen much flaming in the here to justify the existence of this thread (karma bombing aside which I don't want to touch on b/c I don't care for the system in the first place). What DOES seem to be a problem is that most threads tend to derail into more negative criticism of the game (although I do believe that most aren't of a trollish nature).

IMO the "complaint department" thread was a terrible idea. No one wants to post in there because it tries to encompass a topic that is so large (for this game) in to one thread that there would be no way to properly discuss all that is wrong with this game. This may be why most people have chose to ignore it and continue going about it in other ways.

This combined with admins lately closing down threads that are negative or the "This is why I quit" type maybe the reason why so many of the "haters" are spilling over into the otherwise positive threads and derailing them.

IMO there's no getting around it: there are more people that dislike FFXIV than like. The two parties have to learn to get along; it's not enough to herd the "haters" into their own little corner (i.e. complaint department).

#167 Nov 09 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
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Ok,
I have 50(ish) posts on this site and i'm pretty sure that not one of them is troll bait. Being outspoken about your stance on a subject, regardless if minority or majority, does not mean you are right. It also does not mean that you are trolling if your opinions or outlook goes against the grain so to say.

I've looked forward to this game since it was announced as "Project Rapture", and thoroughly enjoyed 5+ years of FFXI back in the day. Almost immediately after playing during the CE week, I was utterly disappointed. I've posted what this game lacks/needs in previous threads if your wondering why.

The only problem I see can only be related to Religion. Here me out here.....

Christian: God Loves you, pray to him and have faith, blah blah blah amen....
Me: God doesn't exist to love me
Christian: He does, believe in him and good things will happen.. and heaven and stuff
Me: Prove it to me then..
Christian: Well there is no proof... but you will see when he returns!! he will save our souls from damnation
Me: Your standing next to the boogie man buddy
Christian: What? theres no such thing! lol
Me: You just gotta believe and have faith in him, kneel and pray to him.. and he won't eat your children!!

The moral of the story is arguing fact with fiction is quite ridiculous, yet some people can become so brainwashed in their beliefs that they will believe anything, and defend it until their deaths.

Oh, and as for me trolling because of my reason number 3.. come on man, since you took it upon yourself to berate me in your response thread, I will be the bigger man and refrain from verbally abusing you. I don't incite fights on the interwebs because SE burned me for $80. When I said I could only get satisfaction from watching the game crash and burn, that's what I meant. -for instance:

Seeing SE stock prices plummet - satisfies me
Seeing 1k people per server on average - satisfies me
Seeing SE CEO's publicly denouncing the current state of the game - satisfies me
Seeing SE financial reports showing losses across the board - satisfies me

See I'm a firm believer of the old saying "You sleep in the bed that you make". When a criminal rapes a young girl and leaves her for dead... would you be satisfied if the judge let him go because he promised to be a better citizen in the future...? In my eyes, SE pulled a fast one on me.. and I hope they get what they deserve for releasing a poor excuse for a "Next Gen MMO". And I'm not comparing Raping a girl to putting out a garbage game.. I'm using the analogy for the principal... crime = time....

Pikko you point out the fact that the front page poll results are showing that more people are happy with the game now and will pay to play. I hope you don't find this next comment berating, but uh.. most of the people that won't be paying have quit this game and these forums and have moved on to play better games.. or await another release. The server population is hard numbers that represent FACT. And the fact is, more people are quitting this game then playing, and right now it is F2P. That tells me alot.

With all that said, why am I still here? Why do I even show up?.. Well a piece of me still wants FFXIV to be that game of my dreams!! I know I feel silly even admitting that on a FFXIV Fansite.. but I check in to see the updates, and see how SE is keeping up to their word... I mean hey search function for Retainers was given a 1-2 week timeframe right? You remember that? that post that was... uh... a month ago.... Well I read the posts and form opinions.. sometimes I even give my two cents in a reply. I do not care about the Karma system or what color my log in name is though, sure I have rated a few people down due to a complete lack of common sense.. but I have never "carpet bombed" any post. Admins can verify that statement I would think.

In closing, (since I feel like I just wrote a school paper)Debate is a great thing in this world.. when two people can form different opinions using the same or similar facts, it's a beautiful thing. Sometimes it can get ugly, hey every rose has it's thorns right???? Admins do need to uphold both sides of there new laws though.. I mean on the first page alone, I was flamed and berated at least 3 times.. but I'm not going to send an admin a PM like a little p***y. I'm only bringing it up because most of the supporters probably were to blind to realize it happened. I've been on Zam boards since XI, and I do respect the admins here, ****.. I learned a lot in XI from a few, but that doesn't mean that I will agree with everything each one says/believes to be true.

#168 Nov 09 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Default
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From my reading I like having the complaint thread. The non fans of ffxiv post rather graphic/ derogitory post about the game. And go on a 1 page essay on how much they hate the game adding so much venmon to their posts. I'm sorry, even if it don't have personal attacks, its still make fans wonder "why are you here?" It also flame bait to use against the fan you ask questions. I think if you gonna talk nast about a game to the point where you are spitting venmon there is no point to post here. But if you want to say w/o cussing ovcer stating the hate, feel free to say i didn't like the game here is why, and my ideas how SE can fix it. Saying conspirisy theories about how SE sucks should be under personal attacks. Pulling out false rumors should be under being uncivil. Treat this as an office type. Don;t cuss alot about the game or others. Be civil not, blind rage. It does kinda seem Pathetic on how much ppl hate the game. And it rather desturbing if not unhealthy. Also We do know there are issues.
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#169 Nov 09 2010 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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For people that have quit, plan to quit, or just flat out stay here because they're bitter about the game, this is your notice that you are not to outright flame existing players just because they play the game. I am sick and tired of our community members being berated for liking something others don't.


Not sure if this has been brought up or not, but here goes...

Fair enough. But the reverse should also be true. Players who currently play the game shouldn't be flaming others simply because the others don't like the game. Doubly so if they give legit reasons for not liking the game.
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#170 Nov 09 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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When moderating a forum, we walk a fine line. We strive for a forum free of the restrictions you sometimes find on other forum. A forum we can let people have a voice in regardless of what they think about a given game, policy, quest, etc. A home where people feel they can come talk about the games that they feel strongly about, where they can feel free to say whatever it is they have to say about a game, good or bad without worrying that it will be suppressed because it doesn’t fit in with the bottom line of that game.

On the other hand, people are sometimes a bit more strident and opinionated than is welcome. It is very, very hard to judge tone of voice via text. Sometimes people say things they mean as a sarcastic joke that are taken literally. Sometimes they are just downright ****** off and don’t care that they drive others away. Other people take a perverse delight in trolling and starting arguments for fun, and some people enjoy watching those arguments. You can’t please all the people all the time. You do well if you maintain an above average level of user satisfaction. And I think that overall we do a pretty good job. Sure we have the occasional exception or missed call, but we try to err on the side of not suppressing posts where we can. We also rely on you, the members of the forum, to keep things reasoned and rational to a certain degree. I would however probably encourage a few of you who tend to be a bit more on the argumentative side to let off some steam in the Asylum or OOT, where we actually encourage flaming and argumentativeness.

The point behind my wall of text there is we want you all to get along, but if you see someone having a particularly bad day and they are lashing out a bit much, cut them some slack too. Feelings run high when people feel strongly about a game, especially new games in the beginning when they see their hopes and dreams for their ideal game fulfilled or denied.

As Pikko said in her post, we’ll keep an eye on the ones who are doing it maliciously to cause trouble, and abuse of the rating system along those lines will not be tolerated and will lead to a permanent removal of the ability to rate posts. If you think your posts or a particular thread has been unfairly targeted, please feel free to send it to myself or any of the other admins for review.

I’m going to go ahead and lock this thread now before it gets heated. Please know that we do read them and are aware of the concerns posted inside.

Thank you for your time,

Senior Forum Administrator Kaolian
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