Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Random thought on a simple(?) fix for SP gainFollow

#1 Nov 07 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
*
228 posts
So I was grinding my various jobs up the other day, killing hundreds of squirrels, moles, and beetles. I watched my SP gain with mixed feelings as I saw the familiar +15 SP, +370 SP, +50 SP, +0 SP ect per fight and thought to myself there must be a better way to do this.

Well, here's my idea (apologies if it's been thought of before); What if we kept the current system as is, but every fight you gain a set % of Exp as SP. If you kill a marmot for 400 XP (random number), you gain 150 SP (random number) from normal skill up procs, but you also gain say 40 additional SP (10% of 400) for a total of 190 SP gained.

This way, if you have the exact same fight and gain 400 XP again, but this time gain no skill ups - instead of 0 SP for the fight you'd get the base line 40. The percentage SP gain would not be able to go over the cap, if your getting 500 SP per kill, you won't gain 540 with this system.

The numbers could all be tweaked by someone better at math and balance then me, but it feels like this could keep the essence of what they were going for while helping to alleviate some of the irritation it causes. Thoughts and opinions?
____________________________
Quote:
Pikko wrote:
Quote:
sideways wrote: (really Pikko?)

Oh go stuff that thread up your ***. Did you even READ that post?
[...]
I mean, excuuuuse me for trying to make people PLAY NICE.


^ Second best forum mod smack down *ever*.
#2 Nov 07 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
*
164 posts
The current battle system sucks. It encourages people to spam weak attacks to get SP, instead of encouraging "skill" and "tactics".

#3 Nov 07 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
**
429 posts
An exp system with random experience gain is objectively bad. There cannot be any randomness at all.

They got it right with crafting and gathering; why wasn't it the same with combat?
#4 Nov 07 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
*
70 posts
the amount of sp/xp should be the same per mob and the strength of the mob. example Mole cons tough. you should get 300 xp and 200 sp and adjust accordingly to mob con IE red,yellow,green.blue.
____________________________
75 Thf,Whm,Nin,Blm,Rdm,Brd RoZ~0 CoP~0 ToAU~0
WoTG Current Bastok Rank 10 Cooking 106+3
Late Night Dynamis Can i Have It orz
AF2 Thief 3/5 Thief 4 life
Banned 6-7-09 Reason "Irregular Credit Card Activity"
#5 Nov 07 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
*
228 posts
Yikes, I got downvoted for this? >.>; I guess it wasn't a popular idea. It wasn't really meant to be a perfect solution, just a band-aid to make the current system less random. Or at least to prevent fights that yield no SP. I agree that SP should be turned into a somewhat predictable outcome based on mob difficulty as stated above, I just don't know if that will ever happen. It'd be a rather large departure from what they are trying to do and I don't know if SE is flexible enough for that kind of a move.
____________________________
Quote:
Pikko wrote:
Quote:
sideways wrote: (really Pikko?)

Oh go stuff that thread up your ***. Did you even READ that post?
[...]
I mean, excuuuuse me for trying to make people PLAY NICE.


^ Second best forum mod smack down *ever*.
#6 Nov 07 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
****
9,526 posts
mistrik wrote:
So I was grinding my various jobs up the other day, killing hundreds of squirrels, moles, and beetles. I watched my SP gain with mixed feelings as I saw the familiar +15 SP, +370 SP, +50 SP, +0 SP ect per fight and thought to myself there must be a better way to do this.

Well, here's my idea (apologies if it's been thought of before); What if we kept the current system as is, but every fight you gain a set % of Exp as SP. If you kill a marmot for 400 XP (random number), you gain 150 SP (random number) from normal skill up procs, but you also gain say 40 additional SP (10% of 400) for a total of 190 SP gained.

This way, if you have the exact same fight and gain 400 XP again, but this time gain no skill ups - instead of 0 SP for the fight you'd get the base line 40. The percentage SP gain would not be able to go over the cap, if your getting 500 SP per kill, you won't gain 540 with this system.

The numbers could all be tweaked by someone better at math and balance then me, but it feels like this could keep the essence of what they were going for while helping to alleviate some of the irritation it causes. Thoughts and opinions?


I agree with this idea.

mistrik wrote:
Yikes, I got downvoted for this? >.>; I guess it wasn't a popular idea. It wasn't really meant to be a perfect solution, just a band-aid to make the current system less random. Or at least to prevent fights that yield no SP. I agree that SP should be turned into a somewhat predictable outcome based on mob difficulty as stated above, I just don't know if that will ever happen. It'd be a rather large departure from what they are trying to do and I don't know if SE is flexible enough for that kind of a move.


Yeah, I understood what you were doing. Ideally I think we would all be happy if mobs gave set SP regardless. However, given that seems unlikely I think your idea is what most of us who have been thinking of ways to make the current system less poisonous have come to...

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 9:46am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#7 Nov 07 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
The proposal might not be perfect, but it's certainly better than what they currently have in place, and I can't imagine that it would be too difficult to implement.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#8 Nov 07 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
364 posts
The random SP system exists as an easy fix to balance issues and the strict cookie cutter party mechanics of FFXI. It seamlessly scales to any number of players, and initially (until it was exploited and nerfed) allowed for a very wide level range to group and still gain optimal SP. These large non-specific parties also have the added benefit of taking emphasis off OP classes (e.g. No BRD/RDM, no party) and make class balance a much smaller issue (e.g. 4X RNG ONRY, LULZDRG No Thanks, etc...). Set SP would fall back on people demanding the OP classes, shunning the gimps, and would be very difficult to balance across such a wide variety of play styles (e.g. solo, duo, trio, 6 man, 15 man, etc...).

I'm not saying I like or it agree with it, but it's not a totally illogical implementation.


Edited, Nov 7th 2010 3:11pm by Furia
#9 Nov 07 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I agree in the sense that the problem has less to do with how SP is gained and more to do with how SLOWLY SP is gained.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#10 Nov 07 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
**
429 posts
Furia wrote:
The random SP system exists as an easy fix to balance issues and the strict cookie cutter party mechanics of FFXI. It seamlessly scales to any number of players, and initially (until it was exploited and nerfed) allowed for a very wide level range to group and still gain optimal SP. These large non-specific parties also have the added benefit of taking emphasis off OP classes (e.g. No BRD/RDM, no party) and make class balance a much smaller issue (e.g. 4X RNG ONRY, LULZDRG No Thanks, etc...). Set SP would fall back on people demanding the OP classes, shunning the gimps, and would be very difficult to balance across such a wide variety of play styles (e.g. solo, duo, trio, 6 man, 15 man, etc...).

I'm not saying I like or it agree with it, but it's not a totally illogical implementation.


Edited, Nov 7th 2010 3:11pm by Furia


I'll have to disagree with this. Making exp gains random PENALIZES people until the point where nearly everyone is getting frustrated while leveling. It replaces the "problem" of having an optimal experience gain setup with a metric **** ton of other problems.

When monsters' exp gain is uniform, it's easy to come up with formulas that keep play styles together in terms of exp gain. It also lends itself to better balance of classes (not that SE actually pays attention to this), because it's easy to spot which classes aren't desirable and which are too desirable.

Right now people are aiming to do as little damage as possible, take as much damage as possible, and generally be as uncoordinated as possible. How do you balance that?
#11 Nov 07 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
**
398 posts
Having a "random SP gain" isn't actually completely random.

Lets say you kill five wolves.

Wolf 1 gives you 200 SP
Wolf 2 gives you 100 SP
Wolf 3 gives you 0 SP
Wolf 4 gives you 50 SP
Wolf 5 gives you 200 SP

Each wolf gives you an average of 110 SP.


Now lets say you are an archer, a very very good archer at that. You are partying with 15 people at crabs. What the system does is give you SP based on how well you perform in comparison to the other 14 people in your party. The more damage you do, the more effective you are in battle, the more SP you will gain in combat.

So lets say you hit harder than me, you do more than me. You get an average of 300 SP / crab, and I will get an average SP of 200 / crab. Not broken at all, you outperform me thus you should be rewarded more SP.

If I say, Hey guys, I have to afk for a while, I will get 0 SP, and your SP gains will be inflated for a while.

Now if we had your system, we could have 14 people autofollowing you getting 100SP/battle for doing absolutely nothing. This is what happened in Lineage 2 (a very long time ago). You would have a party of say 10 people, 5 would be afk in the room leeching, and 5 would be owned by powerleveling gold sellers.

I don't mind the current system, but it could use some tweaking.
#12 Nov 07 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
*
64 posts
My idea to relieve the frustration of SP gains is the following:

Make Caps Variable
-Base the maximum cap primarily on mob level vs PT level. This will make more difficult mobs have higher caps, but will take longer to kill. This means quickly killing lower level mobs and slowly killing very difficult mobs will scale.

-Use other appropriate modifiers for SP cap (PT size? special/difficult mob? etc etc) Use modifier that encourage building well balanced groups.

Make Skill Procs more frequent (100% even?) but reduce the size of the procs.
-Use PT size bonus on proc size IMHO, making the bigger the pt, the faster you cap and the faster you kill, encouraging the "more the merrier" feel that is kind of cool in current PT's.


It should be relatively easy to cap in any fight if you participated, and at the very least if you participated you would get something (high proc rate) and lessen frustration of those 0 SP fights.

It will reduce SP gain disparities (my THM friend heals and gets 30% more SP than I do on MRD, consistently)

It will encourage active participation (no afk leeching)
____________________________
FFXIV:
Tekno Viking (Lindblum)

FFXI:
Synap 85RDM (Cerberus)

WoW:
Tekniques80 Restoration Shaman(Darkspear)
Teknomancer80 Demonology Warlock(Darkspear)
#13 Nov 07 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
**
429 posts
But when the experience flow is steady and predictable, it's easy to fine tune it. Including the group power leveling you're talking about. You rarely ever saw it in FFXI, proving that it can be done. I mean, you can ask a dozen different questions to fine tune it. Are the players in range of the monster? Did they contribute to the fight? Did they contribute at least X amount of damage/healing? Are they within X level of the leader/highest level/monster level? How is the experience distributed?

When you have random experience gains, it's incredibly complex to balance anything. Especially considering that amount of damage a person does per hit has no effect on how much SP he/she gains at the moment.

How do you adjust how fast players level? How do you check who deserves the increased experience and who doesn't? How do you balance solo play and group play? What [or why do certain] actions get more experience than others? How do you balance them so you don't end up with "worthless" actions?
#14 Nov 08 2010 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
2,536 posts
Or they could just as easily change it so you get a minumum of 100 SP per kill and a maximum of 300 SP per kill for mobs that are no more than X levels below you (if solo) or Y levels below your party (Y being a variable based on the number of people in your party and their levels). That way it still has its randomness while providing consistency.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 2:59am by Threx
____________________________
FF11 Server: Caitsith
Kalyna (retired, 2008)
100 Goldsmith
75 Rng, Brd
Main/Acc
Exp/Hybrid
Str/Attk
Spam/Others
#15 Nov 08 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
802 posts
Not sure if any of you guy experience this but, whacking IT mob <--- by accident. I got like 125 sp. But whacking a small warf rat later, yielded me 200+ sp... The random gain is truly random to the core.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 8:16am by Humster
____________________________


This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 18 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (18)