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The Whining Must Stop. (Revised)Follow

#1 Nov 07 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
What is Great about XIV that no one seems to appreciate:

1. FFXI was a blatant time-sink. SE made things take long just for the sake of taking long. Nothing was integrated. If you wanted money, you had to spend days upon days crafting, farming, porting, getting keys for noobs, whatever. The AH makes things a little bit easier, but guess what? THERE WAS NO AH in XI at first either. Ya, you dont have the equivilent of a Wal-Mart to go and one-stop shop, you have to seek it out, make it yourself, and barter to get it. Its a little more satisfiying that walking up to a till, lowballing the item till you get it.

But theres that whole Baby wants his bottle thing again. Very ugly.

Anyways, if you wanted to level, you did that. If you wanted to do quests, you did that. It was alomost impossible to do 2 at once. Just finished the quest you took all day doing and want your reward? Too bad, wait 24hrs just cuz we say.

Now I get xp when Im crafting, I get gil when Im questing, I get XP when Im crafting. I get mats and crystals while Im mining, and xp, and fame, and a gil reward when Im done! Need to tele back to the city? No problem just hit your menu and your there in 10 seconds.

XI had a different road for anything you wanted to accomplish. A different road for making money, for lvlin, for story, for everything.

All different roads, and many, MANY roadblocks in each road. Just for the sake of slowing you down, making you take longer so you will play the game longer so they make more money.

XIV not only removes the roadblocks, they made it all happen on just one road. No matter what you are doing, you will be improving and progressing in other areas. I get 1500XP for digging up a chunk of ore. I get 1000xp for making a copper ingot out of the stuff I just dug up.

This is the single best looking MMORPG ever made, hands down. Both from a graphical and art design perspective. Visuals are the single most important aspect for proper immersion, and when I can get the same feeling from looking out over a mountain range in a game as I do in real life, they got something right.

I guess if you have no job or adult responsibilities FFXI is great. Personally, i dont have 8 hours a day to waste killing Crawlers so I can stack 12 silk threads so i can get the shoes I want. That whole situation is exactly why RMT is a rampant, unstoppable wildfire. If one makes $40 an hour, and it would take you 35 hours to farm for the 100k gil you want you want, and gil is $10 for a million from RMT, what are most adults going to do? Adults place a premium on time, and FFXI is a timesink. FFXIV is not. Personally I think buying gil amounts to paying someone to play the game for you, but, like I said, time is a premium.

SE has placed emphasis on being able to log in and enjoy GAMEPLAY in bite sized doses. Everytime I log in I have fun, because I can do what I want, it doesnt feel like a second job.

There WILL be an AH.
There WILL be more quests.
There WILL be more jobs, mobs, zones, and story.
There WILL be a thousand more tweaks and balances, catered specifically to you, for your enjoyment. Just maybe give it a little time, yea?

SE is a powerhouse, professional, experienced game developer. They know what needs to be done, what the best time frame is to do it in, what works and what doesnt. Go and work for them if you really think you can do a better job of making or improving a game than they can. Or just dont play the game.

Im gonna go play me some FFXIV now. I hope I havent offended too many delicate sensebilities. I just feel that these forums are overloaded with negativity about this game that I feel is great. If its so bad why are there so many people playing it?


#2 Nov 07 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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This is kinda what I was telling to a friend. Most of the "issues" with the game have a temporary work around. But today's society is all about instant gratification and no time for anything. Everyone is in a hurry to the next step. This step in society its so used to have everything in the press of a click, or in the whine of a cry. Society has molded people this way this days, where if you dont get what you want, when you want it, there its a problem. Not everyone is willing to work for the things. They want to skip the process betwen start and ending.

I recommend watching Ellen DeGeneres: Here and Now, its an excellent example of what modern life has turned most people into.
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#3 Nov 07 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Default
Word up Leo.
#4 Nov 07 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I see the instant gratification thing a lot with my kids. If I don't get them juice in the next 2 seconds, they ask again. And again. And again. Even if I'm cooking at the stove or using the freaking bathroom.
#5 Nov 07 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Philosophical question: why is "instant gratification" frowned upon when we're talking about entertainment? Isn't it normal and expected that when people sit down to watch TV, listen to music, read a book, or play a game, that they are having fun from the get go?
#6 Nov 07 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Lol... don't let me start with "kids this days".. I could write a whole book about it.

But seriously, stop for minute, smell the coffee, and work in solutions. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. And yelling, cursing, whining, crying, etc, it's not a solution, it's emotional blackmail.

Don't be the kid in the store that if you don't buy him the toy, starts crying. Be the kid that when couldn't have it in that moment, worked in a plan to how to get it by himself just to prove he can.
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#7 Nov 07 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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Just to clarify: "Instant gratification" it's a therm applied in psychology, where if you don't get what you want the second you ask for it, you resource to emotional or conduct blackmail. That's how we are applying it in this conversation.
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#8 Nov 07 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:
Philosophical question: why is "instant gratification" frowned upon when we're talking about entertainment? Isn't it normal and expected that when people sit down to watch TV, listen to music, read a book, or play a game, that they are having fun from the get go?


Instant Gratification isn't frowned upon in as of itself. (Most people like it...) It's frowned upon when people unrealistically demand it apply to everything.
#9 Nov 07 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well the big huge problem is...this is a game. A game for enjoyment. Not just that but your also going to be paying for it monthly.

Should a video game for the purpose of entertainment have some form of instant gratification?

And your statements about FFXIV removing 'road blocks' that FFXI had are kind of off. Just the quick example of being a Black Smith and wanting to make a rank 8 hammer: I have no easy way of finding the materials to make it. Making them myself will take days if I have alot of time and weeks if I don't have alot of time. Gathering the material that needs to be refined myself will take loads of time. Not having the higher rank hammer I'm trying to make will of course make the process of creating the material I need harder.

None of this is even counting failing a single synthesis...which will happen.

And also, as you have said:
"SE is a powerhouse, professional, experienced game developer. They know what needs to be done, what the best time frame is to do it in, what works and what doesnt."

This is NOT the first MMO they have made. Almost all of this would be slightly excusable or forgivable if it weren't for FFXI being on the other side of the spectrum full of things that worked...that FFXIV is missing. Its like after years building your first car and then for your second car...you don't put wheels on it.
#10 Nov 07 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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BushwicktheBlack, 100% agree with you.

The younger generation gamers of today are whats killing MMORPG's, sadly.
#11 Nov 07 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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But seriously, stop for minute, smell the coffee, and work in solutions. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. And yelling, cursing, whining, crying, etc, it's not a solution, it's emotional blackmail.


Yes, yes, yes!

Obviously this game has massive flaws. But instead of crying and whining about it, why not start or contribute to conversations in a way that might actually make a difference?

Here's a protip: If you start a thread based on an original thought or an intriguing solution to one of the game's shortcomings -- and if you do it without whining or trying to put words in other people's mouths -- then you will invite rational discussion from people who strongly love, enjoy, mildly enjoy, mildly dislike and strongly dislike the game.
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#12 Nov 07 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Right, instant gratification has to do with impulse control. But most people are acting as if my character in an MMO is the same as me in real life, when it's not. I understand that in real life, I can't just walk into a magical building and buy everything I need in seconds at the best prices available and have those items ready for use right away. But why shouldn't my fantasy character be able to? If I had instant gratification issues, I would be throwing a hissy fit at work, or while driving, or when not sitting down to play my game. Look at this way: once I start up my game, I should be having fun.

It's even weirder because this seems to be a concept that's only stuck around for MMOs. I can boot up Left 4 Dead and have fun playing the game in less than a minute. Nobody seems to have a problem with that; it's actually encouraged and something that's highly sought after both by developers and users. But why is that when someone boots up an MMO, spends X amount of time not having fun before getting to the fun part and later complains about it, that they're looked down upon for having instant gratification issues? Why can't that 'not-fun' part be trimmed out?

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 6:26pm by Wolfums
#13 Nov 07 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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RdeLeo wrote:
This is kinda what I was telling to a friend. Most of the "issues" with the game have a temporary work around. But today's society is all about instant gratification and no time for anything. Everyone is in a hurry to the next step. This step in society its so used to have everything in the press of a click, or in the whine of a cry. Society has molded people this way this days, where if you dont get what you want, when you want it, there its a problem. Not everyone is willing to work for the things. They want to skip the process betwen start and ending.

I recommend watching Ellen DeGeneres: Here and Now, its an excellent example of what modern life has turned most people into.


Bolded section is of importance.

Work is something i get paid to do. Entertainment is something i pay to recieve (in the case of a video game / mmo).

Your post is very relevant for most aspects in life... just not paid entertainment. I mean, really the definition of work and play are generally incompatible.

See, the flaw i generally see in these arguements is that if the journey was entertaining (as you say, from start to end) no one would be complaining - even if it took a year to get to level cap or more. However the arguement presented usually has the notion that if you are entertained along the way then you are being "insta-gratified".

It just doesn't seem to fly with me. The arguement solely exists (imo) to serve as a justification for periods in the game where enjoyment is lacking.


Anyway, like i said. I get paid to work, i don't pay some company to work for them. It's not a generation thing, im probably older than the mean age here. I think it is that fact that leads me to valuing my time and money more than a kid and as such i don't put up with meaningless "busy-work / time sinks" anymore.
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#14 Nov 07 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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SideCH wrote:

And your statements about FFXIV removing 'road blocks' that FFXI had are kind of off. Just the quick example of being a Black Smith and wanting to make a rank 8 hammer: I have no easy way of finding the materials to make it. Making them myself will take days if I have alot of time and weeks if I don't have alot of time. Gathering the material that needs to be refined myself will take loads of time. Not having the higher rank hammer I'm trying to make will of course make the process of creating the material I need harder.

None of this is even counting failing a single synthesis...which will happen.


This is where my comment about work around comes in handy. Its easy to say "i dont have time, cant do this" and shut yourself to other solutions, just cause the easy one its not available.

Here are some:

1. "No time to gather ingredients, farming, leveling the class": Easy, do a couple leves, get the money, buy the item.
2. "Making all materials will take days, etc ,etc." The good side: you got xp from it, money, sp, and the satisfaction of doing it yourself.
3. "There is no AH.. omg.. the world is over" : Wanna find an item in the wards? there is a website with bazaar search function. No time or willing to go check bazaars? shout for the item you are looking for.

And I could go on and on. Everything has a solution, it's just easier to say "I can't, I wont, I don't have time" than just using a little effort and work on it.
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#15 Nov 07 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is no better than the thousands of posts saying the opposite.
Feel free to enjoy what you enjoy. You like the game. Awesome.

Some people don't. Your views on the game are no more valid then those with complaints.

It has nothing to do with instant gratification. This is an unfinished game, and many people are upset about that.
I really hate this kind of thing.

Because you support the game, you feel, I don't know, more important then those who don't? Why did you even post this? Hundreds of people have done this same thing before, and hundreds will do it after.

How do you know there will be an AH? SE has said nothing about that.
How do you even know there will be quests(Not more. Quests period.)? New Leves yeah, but I don't remember any other announcement on these things.
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SE is a powerhouse, professional, experienced game developer. They know what needs to be done, what the best time frame is to do it in, what works and what doesnt. Go and work for them if you really think you can do a better job of making or improving a game than they can. Or just dont play the game.

Experience should have prevented all of the current problems from existing in the first place. DO NOT tell someone that they shouldn't play the game. Who are you to suggest such a thing?

Why is this **** allowed anyways? It's just a cleverly disguised flame against all of those unhappy with things.
Thayos wrote:
Obviously this game has massive flaws. But instead of crying and whining about it, why not start or contribute to conversations in a way that might actually make a difference?

How is anything posted here(or anywhere) changed the game as it is? When has SE(In a decent time frame) made changes based on player suggestion?
Crying and whining is all anyone can do. It's not going to reach SE, but it may hit others who feel the same way. And misery loves company.

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#16 Nov 07 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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your not going to get money for making items all the time, in fact your more likley to lose money from it. Crystals and shards being the main factor.

The websites from searching bazaars are pretty broke right now, they won't show all (or sometimes any) of what your looking for, this can lead you to searching a market ward for over a hour and having no way of knowing you will ever find it.

Those aren't work arounds; they are road blocks, time sinks that keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 6:42pm by SideCH
#17 Nov 07 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I hate the term "instant gratification" regarding games, someone applied it to wow at some point incorrectly and its been a buzz word ever since.

I see it used most regarding leveling curves and XP. Instant gratification would be asking for 3 level 50 classes now. What people are asking for is making the earning process a little easier.

I also see it used regarding the state of things and fixes happening slowly. This one is kinda valid, because players do want stuff now. But thats like accusing your teacher of asking for instant gratification when she asks you for a paper you havent done, and was due last week.
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#18 Nov 07 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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And I could go on and on. Everything has a solution, it's just easier to say "I can't, I wont, I don't have time" than just using a little effort and work on it.


This really is the truth though, and this is why all the whining drives me crazy.

Seriously, if you can't handle this game, go find another one. People who enjoy this game don't want everything given to us at log-in. We want to have to "work" at it. In case you haven't heard, this is a Final Fantasy game. This whole franchise is built upon spending time to build up your character.

In regards to the market wards, if you don't like them then do what I do... don't use them!

I have yet to buy or sell anything in the wards. I use my retainer to store items... that's it. There's so much gil available through leves that there's really no reason to need to sell anything yet. I think the market wards are very poorly designed... so I don't use them. And because of that, nothing in the game causes me frustration.

Yes, it's not ideal, but it beats banging my head against the wall and then whining in the forums about it.
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#19 Nov 07 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Just to clarify: "Instant gratification" it's a therm applied in psychology, where if you don't get what you want the second you ask for it, you resource to emotional or conduct blackmail. That's how we are applying it in this conversation.


Instant gratification isn't really a psychological term-- it's a colloquial term. And your definition isn't accurate. Delay of gratification is a psychological term, and does relate to not requiring instant gratification. Further, one's ability to delay gratification isn't necessarily the same as one's willingness to delay gratification.

But I don't think many psychologists would find a problem with an inability to delay gratification in recreation necessarily. If anything, some people delay gratification in a way that isn't healthy, whether because they have a compulsion/addiction, or they have masochistic tendencies. Some people rationalize their behaviors so that they experience continued stress with little gratification.

My point is that any discussion of gratification isn't really relevant to this problem. Someone's willingness to delay gratification for a leisure activity like a video game has extremely little relevance to one's ability to delay gratification in any other context. And at least some of the people who claim to enjoy the game are probably making some poor or even unhealthy leisure choices. A good practice if you have the opportunity is to video yourself playing normally, watch it (even better, someone who knows you), and ask, "Do I appear to be enjoying myself?"
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Nov 07 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I hate the term "instant gratification" regarding games, someone applied it to wow at some point incorrectly and its been a buzz word ever since.

I see it used most regarding leveling curves and XP. Instant gratification would be asking for 3 level 50 classes now. What people are asking for is making the earning process a little easier.

I also see it used regarding the state of things and fixes happening slowly. This one is kinda valid, because players do want stuff now. But thats like accusing your teacher of asking for instant gratification when she asks you for a paper you havent done, and was due last week.


But do people realize why other people want to be max level right away?

Because leveling is not fun. Being low level is not fun. There is nothing to do while being low level or mid level. The only fun stuff is at high or end levels. Why can't this be changed?

There would be no "instant gratification" if there's things to do while low-mid level. People don't start at the finale or rush to the finale of every Left 4 Dead game. They don't skip to the last chapter of single player RPGs. They only seem to do that with MMORPGs because MMORPGs are the only games that don't really have any content until the very end.
#21 Nov 07 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Default
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If FFXI is any indication at all, then we can expect a lot of the mechanics behind things to be pretty complex. Feels like there are still many mysteries in the mechanics there.

These things really aren't going to come to everyone all at once. FFXI wasn't like that, at least initially, and XIV won't. Problem right now is most of the basic mechanics people are still trying to hammer out, so there are precious few guides that include enough info to appease the crowds that don't want to put in all the work. That's just a time problem.

I also doubt that, in terms of class choices, there can be a definitive guide, as each class can be tweaked to fit each person's play style. There can be good ideas, maybe lists of what people have done.

But there is so much to discover in a game like this that it'd be impossible to know it all without doing research and work outside the game.
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#22 Nov 07 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Not to QFT, but Wolfums, you seem like an astute person. You're exactly right.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 4:07pm by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Nov 07 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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"Seriously, if you can't handle this game, go find another one. People who enjoy this game don't want everything given to us at log-in. We want to have to "work" at it. In case you haven't heard, this is a Final Fantasy game. This whole franchise is built upon spending time to build up your character."

Well...thats not exactly true right? I'm just saying that its while its not fully wrong to say "people who enjoy this game don't want everything given to us at log-in" because thats an obvious extreme...and the Dev's and people at SE wouldn't be giving an extra month free and going to great lengths to say they are fixing the problems. Because that statment sort of implies that the game is 'fine' and nothing is wrong with it.

The 'good' thing about MMO's is the divers amount of people that play it (or should be playing it, a small niche group only playing is a bad sign for a company who wants to make money). So its almost insulting to say that "well if you don't wan't this game to be your second job then GET OUT!" or "hey even though you paid money to come and play this, if you don't LOVE everything about the game on day one then GET OUT".

It just sounds like the people who 'don't like all the whining' have started doing a whole lot of whining.
#24 Nov 07 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I hate the term "instant gratification" regarding games, someone applied it to wow at some point incorrectly and its been a buzz word ever since.

I see it used most regarding leveling curves and XP. Instant gratification would be asking for 3 level 50 classes now. What people are asking for is making the earning process a little easier.

I also see it used regarding the state of things and fixes happening slowly. This one is kinda valid, because players do want stuff now. But thats like accusing your teacher of asking for instant gratification when she asks you for a paper you havent done, and was due last week.


But do people realize why other people want to be max level right away?

Because leveling is not fun. Being low level is not fun. There is nothing to do while being low level or mid level. The only fun stuff is at high or end levels. Why can't this be changed?

There would be no "instant gratification" if there's things to do while low-mid level. People don't start at the finale or rush to the finale of every Left 4 Dead game. They don't skip to the last chapter of single player RPGs. They only seem to do that with MMORPGs because MMORPGs are the only games that don't really have any content until the very end.


But there's nothing at high levels yet. Just more leves. So for the moment there's not much to do when you get there. Might as well slow down and enjoy the prettiness while waiting for the rest of the game to arrive.

Or you can end up like the summoners in XI who got all their summons at high levels before they put in the level 20 fights.
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#25 Nov 07 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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well if you don't wan't this game to be your second job then GET OUT!


Not once did I say this, yet you implied that I did. Bad!

Working at something does not mean treating it as a second job. It simply means needing to extend a certain amount of effort to get it, and not having everything be quick and easy.

I don't think you and I disagree on that.

Based on all the complaints, though, it seems there are a number of players right now who want most things handed to them.
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#26 Nov 07 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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Gadhelyn wrote:
But there's nothing at high levels yet. Just more leves. So for the moment there's not much to do when you get there. Might as well slow down and enjoy the prettiness while waiting for the rest of the game to arrive.

Or you can end up like the summoners in XI who got all their summons at high levels before they put in the level 20 fights.


Well, there's not much to do anywhere in FFXIV at any level. =]

I'm actually talking about the design of most MMOs. There's just a drab, purposeless grind that people have to go through and anyone that doesn't or hates it is in the wrong. The few MMOs that did away with it happen to be the most popular ones: WOW, FFXI and Aion.
#27 Nov 07 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
[quote]
Based on all the complaints, though, it seems there are a number of players right now who want most things handed to them.


I'll put another example to demonstrate this: Memory phone numbers in a cellphone. How many can dial the full numbers without resourcing to the speed dial, or using the number from the memory? It's an "art" that got lost just to make life easier. But what happen if you lose the phone, or for some reason, delete all numbers? Since you never memorize them, you lose them and you are screwed. Same happens with this game. Since it doesn't have the "speed dial button" that memorized and does everything for you, you feel lost and angry and don't know what to do (well, I tried my best to explain my point).

Other people ask for endgame, which gets me to think, Why do you want endgame in a game with only 2 months out? What will happen after that? You stop playing? Isn't endgame like after 2 or 3 expansions or so? Well, that's just my thinking.
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#28 Nov 07 2010 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
But there's nothing at high levels yet. Just more leves. So for the moment there's not much to do when you get there. Might as well slow down and enjoy the prettiness while waiting for the rest of the game to arrive.


Not true, actually. There are more leves, which given the lack of content, you can't blame people for wanting to get to new leves more quickly, but there are also the class quests. Additionally, although it's typically taken for granted (well, in an MMO is IS granted), unlocking new skills, moving on to new areas and fighting new monsters-- these are content. And they're content that you have to level to get to.

And in a game that suffers not only from a lack of content, but a lack of depth in the existing content, it's inevitable that players will get impatient for content.

Personally, if I could level through the classes more quickly, playing with their abilities and using them against new opponents, that would actually make the game a lot more appealing to me.

That said, it's not a very strong argument for the game, because you're just affirming that:
Quote:
Well, there's not much to do anywhere in FFXIV at any level. =]
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#29 Nov 07 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
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RdeLeo wrote:
Thayos wrote:
[quote]
Based on all the complaints, though, it seems there are a number of players right now who want most things handed to them.


I'll put another example to demonstrate this: Memory phone numbers in a cellphone. How many can dial the full numbers without resourcing to the speed dial, or using the number from the memory? It's an "art" that got lost just to make life easier. But what happen if you lose the phone, or for some reason, delete all numbers? Since you never memorize them, you lose them and you are screwed. Same happens with this game. Since it doesn't have the "speed dial button" that memorized and does everything for you, you feel lost and angry and don't know what to do (well, I tried my best to explain my point).

Other people ask for endgame, which gets me to think, Why do you want endgame in a game with only 2 months out? What will happen after that? You stop playing? Isn't endgame like after 2 or 3 expansions or so? Well, that's just my thinking.


ZAM's my speed dial, when crafting I keep the recipes lists from the database open.

And responding to the analogy: Heck, i have trouble remembering my own number at times >.>

Anyway, those that are more dedicated to one niche in the game will eventually memorize the important things for that niche. I know I already have a few recipes memorized because I make them often enough.
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#30 Nov 07 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
Well the big huge problem is...this is a game. A game for enjoyment. Not just that but your also going to be paying for it monthly.

Should a video game for the purpose of entertainment have some form of instant gratification?


Just because you pay for something does not mean you get to dictate the form of it. The form is predetermined. Also, yoaur whole hammer conundrum, I had a similer one regarding my Hora. But I enjoyed the process where you didnt. I also learned alot while I purchased alot of different crafting gear before I stumbled along the one I needed to repair them.

The fact that there is no easy way appeals to me, I likr that the game is so new that I have to create something or go to an effort to find it. It makes me appreciate it more.

Don't you remember that moment in XI? When you finally got your Osode/Kote/Haidate or whatever it was? Didn't it feel like you had actually accomplished something?
#31 Nov 07 2010 at 7:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:

Seriously, if you can't handle this game, go find another one. People who enjoy this game don't want everything given to us at log-in. We want to have to "work" at it. In case you haven't heard, this is a Final Fantasy game. This whole franchise is built upon spending time to build up your character.



The only thing i expect at log in is to have a good time.

With your statement about final fantasy requiring work and time to build up a character...

The main draw to the ff series when i was a kid (ff1) was the focus on story telling and exploration over grinding. Granted, a child (i was something around 8-9?) cannot make those full arguements. I simply enjoyed being able to move the plot along compared to the other rpg game of the time - dragon warrior. I spent a long time farming slimes to get a stick in that game.

Meanwhile in ff i was able to move through the story at a nice pace, never spending any "unejoyable" time grinding my characters to a strenght to take on the next challenge. There was grinding, dont get me wrong, i think the cave in elfland was the big one... but it was short. Random encounters were not every two steps (compared to breath of fire) and the battles were enjoyable.

Fast forward through the series - none of the games (except one)required "work" to see the main story, see all the challenges and immerse yourself in the game. The exception is ff11.

So yeah, Thayos, please if you are going to say that "this is ff, we want to work, we want our game to be built upon spending time" take these two points into account:

1. You do not speak for every final fantasy fan with that statement. You have said that as much for other statements, be consistant please.

2. Final fantasy as a whole is not a "work" + "time" game. The statment needs to be limited to one specific game - ffxi. The rest of the series is rather fluid in their progression, reqiuring minimal grinding compared to other games of the time.

****, i think the last 7 final fantasies (minus xi) can be completed without stopping once to grind.


Quote:
Working at something does not mean treating it as a second job. It simply means needing to extend a certain amount of effort to get it, and not having everything be quick and easy.


Work implies non-enjoyment. That i think the big issue with the statement. If to get an iron sword +1 it took a month of engaging in enjoyable battles with some depth to them (say, a mission or story)and variance, no one would consider that work. Gringing the same marmot spawn camp for one month to get the sword however, can be considered work.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 8:39pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#32 Nov 07 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:

2. Final fantasy as a whole is not a "work" + "time" game. The statment needs to be limited to one specific game - ffxi. The rest of the series is rather fluid in their progression, reqiuring minimal grinding compared to other games of the time.

****, i think the last 7 final fantasies (minus xi) can be completed without stopping once to grind.


While this is half true, yes, you can "finish" the game without grind, just keep going, but you wont "complete" it , mostly all FF games require grind in several aspects, sometimes requiring lots of time to maximize levels or skills, I'm even doing it right now in 4 heroes of light, for the gems to update all my hats. In 12 and 13, you neede a lot of grind to level up, so you can go fight the big enemies and marks. And I can keep going making examples on every FF game.

And in this part, I'm sorry, but Final Fantasy series ARE games that require both , Work and Time. And that's what I like about it.
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#33 Nov 07 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Default
Uchitaru-

I never wrote anything about instant gratification.

I wrote this, if you really, really must know, because I feel that people are saying there is nothing to enjoy about the game, and that it is unfinished, or broken.

I contend that a) there is plenty to enjoy about this game. So much, in fact, that only people that do not have enough to enjoy have entirely too much time on their hands. If mean to tell me that you have hit rank and level 50, finished the main quest, and have completed every leve for your classes, have seen every zone and mob in the game, then I just don't believe you, but if you have, then FFXIV not being enough game for you is not the big problem in your life.

b) the game simply has not been out long enough for you to conclude without a doubt that it is broken or unfinished in any way. This game was not intended to be a graphic upgrade to a clone of XI. The only reason you are so ***** about these things is because you are indoctrinated and conditioned to be as such.

How do I know all the things I talked about are coming? Experience. But even if they don't, then that is the game. And I'll keep playing, because I love it. No AH reallly doesnt bother me all that much. The process I went through to get my Brass Knucks was quite involved, but I was laughing when I finally got em.

I never said I was more important than anyone, but you certainly took the time to read, and respond to my post. I do feel a little more important now, actually, thank you.
#34 Nov 07 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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RdeLeo wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:

Based on all the complaints, though, it seems there are a number of players right now who want most things handed to them.


I'll put another example to demonstrate this: Memory phone numbers in a cellphone. How many can dial the full numbers without resourcing to the speed dial, or using the number from the memory? It's an "art" that got lost just to make life easier. But what happen if you lose the phone, or for some reason, delete all numbers? Since you never memorize them, you lose them and you are screwed. Same happens with this game. Since it doesn't have the "speed dial button" that memorized and does everything for you, you feel lost and angry and don't know what to do (well, I tried my best to explain my point).

Other people ask for endgame, which gets me to think, Why do you want endgame in a game with only 2 months out? What will happen after that? You stop playing? Isn't endgame like after 2 or 3 expansions or so? Well, that's just my thinking.



Android phone. All my numbers are synced to my gmail.
and on my Pre Plus they are synce to both my Gmail and Palm account. =P


Edited, Nov 7th 2010 9:04pm by Faaeng
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#35 Nov 07 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Because leveling is not fun. Being low level is not fun. There is nothing to do while being low level or mid level. The only fun stuff is at high or end levels. Why can't this be changed?


SO what is FUN for you? I had a blast leveling. Why exactly did you want to get your Hauby so bad? Why did you want to get the Hellfire+1? So you could go in a party and mash on stuff and have a blast.

When I was alot younger, I was all about getting to the end. It wasn't until much later that I discovered that the enjoyment comes in the journey, not the destination. When you get to the end of a book, it's not the last page that gave you your fun.

Quote:
But do people realize why other people want to be max level right away?


If you want to be Max level right away, why not just buy an account? Somebody else already did the work for you. Then you can log in, then sit there and stare at yourself standing in Aht Urghan and then pass out from boredom. There is your instant gratification right there.

Also, could you tell me about the high level content that we are missing out on here? What is it like? Must be a lot better than the dope Cinimatic and CS at the start of the game for you to devalue the early content so much.

And the Left 4 Dead analogy falls a little flat, comparing a 3rd person zombie shooter and a MMORPG in terms of gameplay or gratification is a bit pointless. The experiences are completely different.
#36 Nov 07 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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While this is half true, yes, you can "finish" the game without grind, just keep going, but you wont "complete" it


Setting aside the fact that this point is not relevant to his argument-- that not every fan of the FF series enjoys those aspects-- many fans of FF have historically disliked those parts of the game that you're talking about (the so-called "aftergame"). They like the optional battles that come later, but not the tedious work involved in reaching a point where those can be beaten. Yes, afterwards there's a sense of accomplishment, that, "Finally!" feeling... but that feeling of elation is almost always a feeling of relief. And relief follows an unpleasant stimuli, like stress, or boredom. The drive to accomplish is extrinsically motivated, much like the motivation to work is generally to get paid, rather than because the work is enjoyable.

And that's generally fine, but it's also not leisure at that point. And therein lies the problem... for most people, FFXIV does not fit the criterion of a recreational activity. Almost by definition, it isn't fun.

The need to "complete" the game is a compulsion, and probably not a healthy one. And I say this as someone who is both well-versed in psychology, and as someone who has been there.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#37 Nov 07 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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why work around things that are and should be implemented. Yes if i ignore half of ff14 i have nothing but love for the game. Hopefully after dec patch I will have nothing but love for the game. That said I ma paying them to give me an enjoyable game, not something in which i have to go outside the game to work around the enjoyable things. I mean really a website that lists bazaars, Lets hope se does not hear about it.

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#38 Nov 07 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
The main draw to the ff series when i was a kid (ff1) was the focus on story telling and exploration over grinding. Granted, a child (i was something around 8-9?) cannot make those full arguements. I simply enjoyed being able to move the plot along compared to the other rpg game of the time - dragon warrior. I spent a long time farming slimes to get a stick in that game.



It's safe to say that I have played every major NA FF release since about 1990, and in not a SINGLE game was there NOT a point where you would reach a certain enemy, and he would hand you your @ss on a silver platter over and over again until I snapped and said "***** this! I'm gonna kill 800 monsters until I level up some more and then YOUR DEAD MAN!"

Not. One. Game.

You can't sit there and type that you just breezed through every oldschool FF you ever played without having to make your party a little stronger. Come on now.
#39 Nov 07 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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BushwicktheBlack wrote:
What is Great about XIV that no one seems to appreciate:

1. FFXI was a blatant time-sink. SE made things take long just for the sake of taking long. Nothing was integrated. If you wanted money, you had to spend days upon days crafting, farming, porting, getting keys for noobs, whatever. The AH makes things a little bit easier, but guess what? THERE WAS NO AH in XI at first either. Ya, you dont have the equivilent of a Wal-Mart to go and one-stop shop, you have to seek it out, make it yourself, and barter to get it. Its a little more satisfiying that walking up to a till, lowballing the item till you get it.


That was 2002, this is 2010. Mmos back then were still rather new and clunky, and FFXI improved over the years as did all other Mmos. You must keep up with the times if you want to survive. There has been plenty of time to learn from mistakes.

Time Sinks in FFXIV - Travel, Market wards, weapon and armor needs for repairs (more so for weapons), Farming, Porting is rough w/ Such cruel Anima regen rates. In some regards Crafting is also a major time sink. seeing as how the entire process takes about 2minutes per synth.

In 2010, we have higher expectations in games, which is why games evolve.


Quote:
But theres that whole Baby wants his bottle thing again. Very ugly.

Anyways, if you wanted to level, you did that. If you wanted to do quests, you did that. It was alomost impossible to do 2 at once. Just finished the quest you took all day doing and want your reward? Too bad, wait 24hrs just cuz we say.

Now I get xp when Im crafting, I get gil when Im questing, I get XP when Im crafting. I get mats and crystals while Im mining, and xp, and fame, and a gil reward when Im done! Need to tele back to the city? No problem just hit your menu and your there in 10 seconds.

XI had a different road for anything you wanted to accomplish. A different road for making money, for lvlin, for story, for everything.

All different roads, and many, MANY roadblocks in each road. Just for the sake of slowing you down, making you take longer so you will play the game longer so they make more money.

XIV not only removes the roadblocks, they made it all happen on just one road. No matter what you are doing, you will be improving and progressing in other areas. I get 1500XP for digging up a chunk of ore. I get 1000xp for making a copper ingot out of the stuff I just dug up.

This is the single best looking MMORPG ever made, hands down. Both from a graphical and art design perspective. Visuals are the single most important aspect for proper immersion, and when I can get the same feeling from looking out over a mountain range in a game as I do in real life, they got something right.


Again, MMOs have evolved from when XI came out and XI now. SE did learn from XI look at the leve system. Very similar to the Books and pages in XI. Take up a page, hunt X # of monster Y, Gil and exp Reward you can redo every hour. However w/ a slew of engaging quests, players don't always have to resort to books. If your short on time, books are great ways to advance whatever class, and earn a little pocket change.

Unlike XI, XIV only has the leve system. And of course in time that will change, but 1 of the main reasons people complain is because they already payed 50-80$ and some have even upgraded their systems to play the game.

Speaking of upgrades, the game is extremely pretty. Everything is rendered well, and its awesome for awhile. The copy paste terrain takes away from that somewhat but that also depends on how important the environment is to the player. Not everyone cares.
Every action in XIV does give Physical exp, but at the moment who even cares what their physical level is? W/ harsh soft caps and/or broken stats does anyone even really care what their physical level is? Its all about the ranks. And SP can be a cruel misstress. sometimes showerin you w/ SP gainin love, sometimes its the frigid shoulder of multiple 0 Sp gains. Hopefully this will be fixed but w/ massive Amounts of SP needed to level, i hardly see this as a more casual player friendly system.

Travel atm is horrendous, no chocos, terrible Anima regen, how is this better than XI's current state? And the argument of saying "this is better than XI was @ launch" is horribly flawed. That was a {Long Time} ago, and if a company is going to only marginally improve in 8 years on their next big mmo and expect players to be satisfied I'm sorry but i don't drink that kool aid.


Quote:
I guess if you have no job or adult responsibilities FFXI is great. Personally, i dont have 8 hours a day to waste killing Crawlers so I can stack 12 silk threads so i can get the shoes I want. That whole situation is exactly why RMT is a rampant, unstoppable wildfire. If one makes $40 an hour, and it would take you 35 hours to farm for the 100k gil you want you want, and gil is $10 for a million from RMT, what are most adults going to do? Adults place a premium on time, and FFXI is a timesink. FFXIV is not. Personally I think buying gil amounts to paying someone to play the game for you, but, like I said, time is a premium.

SE has placed emphasis on being able to log in and enjoy GAMEPLAY in bite sized doses. Everytime I log in I have fun, because I can do what I want, it doesnt feel like a second job.

There WILL be an AH.
There WILL be more quests.
There WILL be more jobs, mobs, zones, and story.
There WILL be a thousand more tweaks and balances, catered specifically to you, for your enjoyment. Just maybe give it a little time, yea?

SE is a powerhouse, professional, experienced game developer. They know what needs to be done, what the best time frame is to do it in, what works and what doesnt. Go and work for them if you really think you can do a better job of making or improving a game than they can. Or just dont play the game.

Im gonna go play me some FFXIV now. I hope I havent offended too many delicate sensebilities. I just feel that these forums are overloaded with negativity about this game that I feel is great. If its so bad why are there so many people playing it?


Sorry i had to LOL at this. 8 hours for silk thread? Ever heard of Treasure hunter? Sure it's kind of a myth but i used to farm quite a few stacks of it in an hour or 2. Making a nice bit o gil when i did. Your statement is grossly overexaggerated. I could say the same for 14. Farming shards for hours on end to fund crafting for awhile only to stay the same rank and not sell much because sp point requirments are huge and the easiest thing to skill on doesn't sell for crap. =/

Every game has Rmt basically, but companies can take better actions to fight against them, not building the game around making it hard for Rmt, that just makes it hard for the players.

There will never be an AH because SE is planning to make money off people buying multiple retainers. Their just going to pretty up the wards w/ a search function and maybe some future tweaks. It still won't be as fast or time efficient.
Speaking of time efficient...

You say that SE has emphasized playing in small doses. But a lot of players tend to dedicate hours to play. True there are a lot of casuals but Logging in for Leves got stale and old after a few weeks no? What else is there to do? A 20min story quest once every 5 ranks? Have u seen how big the Sp requirements are? And of course more quests will be added but as of now there is nothing, and we wont see any till next year @ least. Why should SE get my money for a game that has so little to offer? If the release had waited till march there would no doubt be a ton to do until the next big update. but as of now anyone who has played regularly for about a month has already seen most of if not all there is to see. Grinding doesn't count as content, especially w/ such a shallow party system.


Quote:
SE is a powerhouse, professional, experienced game developer. They know what needs to be done, what the best time frame is to do it in, what works and what doesnt.

Really? Cuz i haven't seen this lately. Not with their last few releases and certainly not this game.

Your crusade to stop the whiners sadly falls short as you yourself are not acknowledging the facts here.
SE, a company many of us hold dear have stamped out the trust of many faithful customers and every and all fans should be allowed to voice their opinion and frustration. There is a thread entirely dedicated to this, and there should be one for everyone like the OP who thinks they have the right to tell them to stop complaining.


Edited, Nov 7th 2010 8:23pm by Toukai
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#40 Nov 07 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you want to be Max level right away, why not just buy an account? Somebody else already did the work for you. Then you can log in, then sit there and stare at yourself standing in Aht Urghan and then pass out from boredom. There is your instant gratification right there.


See, this is where someone with any level of knowledge about motivational psychology can point out a glaring flaw in your argument.

You contend that leveling (i.e., the act of killing monsters) is fun. But you argue that someone who was fully leveled would be bored and could not have fun. However, being fully leveled does not prevent you from killing monsters at all. You may still do so for fun if you want to.

And that is the difference between an extrinsic motivation (carrot-on-a-string, doing something for the reward that you don't want to do in and of itself) and intrinsic motivation (doing something just because it's fun to do).

If your enjoyment is contingent on a reward, then you don't actually enjoy playing the game-- you just value the rewards it offers. You may salivate over the rewards as you work towards them, but ultimately this is only proof that a person with a compulsion can do something that no one without a compulsion would consider fun. And that's something you see proof of in psychology all the time.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Nov 07 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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And there it goes again. I'm gonna be the mature one and just walk away from this thread.
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#42 Nov 07 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Well, there's not much to do anywhere in FFXIV at any level. =]

I'm actually talking about the design of most MMOs. There's just a drab, purposeless grind that people have to go through and anyone that doesn't or hates it is in the wrong. The few MMOs that did away with it happen to be the most popular ones: WOW, FFXI and Aion.


Did you actually just type that there is no Grind to speak of in FFXI?

Tell that to a lvl 45 Galkan SAM. Who basically solo'd to 60.

It's like all the innovations in the last year or two in FFXI (mostly due to its collapse) made you forget about the heinous beast that was FFXI 5 years ago.

With the few hours a day I have to play I have more than enough to do, so much that I have trouble deciding. Explore? Mine? Craft? Leves? Main? Try different classes? Earn different skills? Party?

Methinks some people have enitirely too much time on their hands.
#43 Nov 07 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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BushwicktheBlack wrote:

This is the single best looking MMORPG ever made, hands down. Both from a graphical and art design perspective. Visuals are the single most important aspect for proper immersion, and when I can get the same feeling from looking out over a mountain range in a game as I do in real life, they got something right.



I disagree, I think the world is very dull and uninspiring, and doesn't have much in terms of variety. I honestly prefer the visuals in FFXI, the spell effects, and weapon skills looked better in FFXI, the world also felt a lot more... grand.

I've yet to be as captivated by anything i've seen in FFXIV, as I was when I first went to Kazham, or my first time in Sky.
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#44 Nov 07 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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Instant gratification mentality?? Really? Instant gratification is what consumers pay for. I'm not learning a trade here. I am paying for entertainment and instant gratification is all I want. Guess I'm a little baby. Next time you go to a restaraunt and order a steak and get a turkey rueben instead I hope they call you a whiner for expecting to get what you ordered and say there's no such thing as instant gratififcation.

Edit- This is about game enjoyment from my personal opinion only and not about game content or mechanics.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 9:57pm by westsidepatone
#45 Nov 07 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Thayos wrote:

Seriously, if you can't handle this game, go find another one. People who enjoy this game don't want everything given to us at log-in. We want to have to "work" at it. In case you haven't heard, this is a Final Fantasy game. This whole franchise is built upon spending time to build up your character.



The only thing i expect at log in is to have a good time.

With your statement about final fantasy requiring work and time to build up a character...

The main draw to the ff series when i was a kid (ff1) was the focus on story telling and exploration over grinding. Granted, a child (i was something around 8-9?) cannot make those full arguements. I simply enjoyed being able to move the plot along compared to the other rpg game of the time - dragon warrior. I spent a long time farming slimes to get a stick in that game.

Meanwhile in ff i was able to move through the story at a nice pace, never spending any "unejoyable" time grinding my characters to a strenght to take on the next challenge. There was grinding, dont get me wrong, i think the cave in elfland was the big one... but it was short. Random encounters were not every two steps (compared to breath of fire) and the battles were enjoyable.

Fast forward through the series - none of the games (except one)required "work" to see the main story, see all the challenges and immerse yourself in the game. The exception is ff11.

So yeah, Thayos, please if you are going to say that "this is ff, we want to work, we want our game to be built upon spending time" take these two points into account:

1. You do not speak for every final fantasy fan with that statement. You have said that as much for other statements, be consistant please.

2. Final fantasy as a whole is not a "work" + "time" game. The statment needs to be limited to one specific game - ffxi. The rest of the series is rather fluid in their progression, reqiuring minimal grinding compared to other games of the time.

****, i think the last 7 final fantasies (minus xi) can be completed without stopping once to grind.


Quote:
Working at something does not mean treating it as a second job. It simply means needing to extend a certain amount of effort to get it, and not having everything be quick and easy.


Work implies non-enjoyment. That i think the big issue with the statement. If to get an iron sword +1 it took a month of engaging in enjoyable battles with some depth to them (say, a mission or story)and variance, no one would consider that work. Gringing the same marmot spawn camp for one month to get the sword however, can be considered work.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 8:39pm by KacesofCaitsith


Interesting that Final Fantasy started going downhill about 7 games ago. Eight was not as good as seven, nine was not as good as eight, ten was on par with nine but past that, they're barely worth playing besides XI. 1-7 were fantastic games. 8-10 were good, not great. 10-2 and 12 aren't worth playing. 13 is ok but far too linear. So they've become progressively worse, to me, as, as you say, they took the grind out of the game. Although I don't really think that's why.

What one person enjoys another might not. That's the real problem. MMO's have become much more popular in recent years. There is a much larger audience and they can't please everyone. But, everyone was expecting them to please them.

I've noticed that people have been much more critical of MMO's in the last few years and I believe that's why. The audience is so large now that the MMO's can't please everyone that wants to enjoy it. There are whole groups of people that wanted to enjoy the game but, after playing it, find that they're disappointed. They wanted so badly to enjoy it though that the disappointment quickly turns to anger.

I wanted to play that game but it doesn't suite my tastes, they should change it for me so that I like it. I could be wrong though.

I personally play 2-4 games per year. Out of the hundreds that are released each year that's about how many I enjoy. I don't rant about the ones that I don't enjoy though. I move on to one that I do enjoy. i.e. I really liked GTA San Andreas but I couldn't get into GTA 4. It just wasn't my style. I sold GTA 4 and got Fallout 3 and really enjoyed it.

The bugs of the game will be worked out. That much we can be sure of. Will they change their vision of the game to suit your tastes though? Who knows. Not I.
#46 Nov 07 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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BushwicktheBlack wrote:
SO what is FUN for you? I had a blast leveling. Why exactly did you want to get your Hauby so bad? Why did you want to get the Hellfire+1? So you could go in a party and mash on stuff and have a blast.

When I was alot younger, I was all about getting to the end. It wasn't until much later that I discovered that the enjoyment comes in the journey, not the destination. When you get to the end of a book, it's not the last page that gave you your fun.


Different strokes for different folks.

But in reality, I doubt people actually liked leveling in FFXI. The camps it offered were cool for the first dozen or two levels, but all I kept hearing from people who did nothing but try to rush to cap, was how bad the leveling in FFXI was. They probably didn't realize that FFXI had a lot of content for lower and mid level players. BCNM, ENM, missions, completing outpost warps, limit breaks, a ton of side quests, job quests- these were all available before players reached the cap. It also had a pleasant community, which eased the pain of experience parties.

The point is, there needs to be something else besides simply killing things and seeing numbers pop up on your screen between level 1 and max level.



Quote:
If you want to be Max level right away, why not just buy an account? Somebody else already did the work for you. Then you can log in, then sit there and stare at yourself standing in Aht Urghan and then pass out from boredom. There is your instant gratification right there.


I sure could. A lot of people do that actually- and they don't pass out from boredom either. They're thinking, "man, being low level sucks. This is not fun."

You know what one solution to this is? Skip being a low level.
You know what the better solution is? Ask why they're not having fun and fix it.

Quote:
Also, could you tell me about the high level content that we are missing out on here? What is it like? Must be a lot better than the dope Cinimatic and CS at the start of the game for you to devalue the early content so much.


I'm not exactly talking about FFXIV here, but MMOs in general. If you have to know though, I quit FFXIV as a rank 16 CON because simply leveling- with no other interesting content- is boring.

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And the Left 4 Dead analogy falls a little flat, comparing a 3rd person zombie shooter and a MMORPG in terms of gameplay or gratification is a bit pointless. The experiences are completely different.


I was talking more about the entertainment they provide. Why should it be different? Why should Left 4 Dead be fun from minute one, but an MMO only fun after a few weeks/months?

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Did you actually just type that there is no Grind to speak of in FFXI?

Tell that to a lvl 45 Galkan SAM. Who basically solo'd to 60.

It's like all the innovations in the last year or two in FFXI (mostly due to its collapse) made you forget about the heinous beast that was FFXI 5 years ago.

With the few hours a day I have to play I have more than enough to do, so much that I have trouble deciding. Explore? Mine? Craft? Leves? Main? Try different classes? Earn different skills? Party?

Methinks some people have enitirely too much time on their hands.


See above; FFXI offered a lot more to at lower/mid levels aside from "level some more". Even before TOAU it had a decent amount of content.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 9:56pm by Wolfums
#47 Nov 07 2010 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I hate the term "instant gratification" regarding games, someone applied it to wow at some point incorrectly and its been a buzz word ever since.

I see it used most regarding leveling curves and XP. Instant gratification would be asking for 3 level 50 classes now. What people are asking for is making the earning process a little easier.

I also see it used regarding the state of things and fixes happening slowly. This one is kinda valid, because players do want stuff now. But thats like accusing your teacher of asking for instant gratification when she asks you for a paper you havent done, and was due last week.


But do people realize why other people want to be max level right away?

Because leveling is not fun. Being low level is not fun. There is nothing to do while being low level or mid level. The only fun stuff is at high or end levels. Why can't this be changed?

There would be no "instant gratification" if there's things to do while low-mid level. People don't start at the finale or rush to the finale of every Left 4 Dead game. They don't skip to the last chapter of single player RPGs. They only seem to do that with MMORPGs because MMORPGs are the only games that don't really have any content until the very end.



it will take time. Also ffxi did have content for all levels ffxiv does to. Just not everyone sees content the same. Leveling can be fun if you make it fun. I found leveling to be more fun then endgame stuff. Not all games make leveling boring or a rush like in WoW. ffxiv just started really SE knows the issues and is addressing a good chuck of then in 2 mnths. But one issue is alot of the new mmorpg gamjers are coming from the fps scene, and kinda ruining the rpg feel in mmorpg.
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#48 Nov 07 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the problem is that whether you're rank 1 or rank 50, you're not doing anything different. There's no reason to rank up *at all* in this game as it is currently. Which is why a lot of us got bored and quit logging in. Game needs content. Also, I think it was an inherently bad idea to let someone rank up every crafting class to max. You should only be able to take 1 past a certain rank like in FFXI.

Until an ounce of skill is required to advance in this game, I don't see anthing turning around for the better. An AH wouldn't even put a dent in the problems this game currently has.
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#49 Nov 07 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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i remember in the beta forum the time when you say whats broken and what need to get fixed SE will jump on it but people were doing the same thing as people whining here. you guys can blame most of them. what the **** do they think beta means, maybe it means final well broken in game to them.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 10:26pm by mitmystria
#50 Nov 07 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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It's safe to say that I have played every major NA FF release since about 1990, and in not a SINGLE game was there NOT a point where you would reach a certain enemy, and he would hand you your @ss on a silver platter over and over again until I snapped and said "***** this! I'm gonna kill 800 monsters until I level up some more and then YOUR DEAD MAN!"

Not. One. Game.


I cleared most of the games without stopping to level, and I've played every single FF. I've also played plenty of other JRPGs (including others by SE) that didn't require it.

If you were smart, you could devise a strategy to win without grinding levelups. In fact, some of the most fun battles I've ever fought were won in that way.

As for SE learning their lesson, I don't know, but I know that even FFXI finally broke down in terms of making leveling easier. There were the xp bonus rings, the signet bonuses, the removal of xp loss in certain battles, the addition of xp bonuses to events that didn't previously have them, the Fields of Valor, and now in Abyssea you can apparently make 100k/hour.

And I know that a great many players HATED how long it took to level in FFXI. Fighting the same monsters, staying in the same camps forever, and often not even learning any new abilities for weeks... it all got very exhausting. And this was all on top of the difficulty of building a working party and then competing for camps and mobs.

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I think the problem is that whether you're rank 1 or rank 50, you're not doing anything different. There's no reason to rank up *at all* in this game as it is currently. Which is why a lot of us got bored and quit logging in. Game needs content. Also, I think it was an inherently bad idea to let someone rank up every crafting class to max. You should only be able to take 1 past a certain rank like in FFXI.

Until an ounce of skill is required to advance in this game, I don't see anthing turning around for the better. An AH wouldn't even put a dent in the problems this game currently has.


I have to agree that it's not only a lack of content (rewards) but a lack of skill requirement (challenge) that is crippling the game at the moment. Let me ask you a question though... assuming there was no further skill required, how much more motivated would you be to play if you could level much much faster? The benefits being that you could move to new locations/monsters faster, get new abilities faster, and do more of the class quests more quickly?


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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#51 Nov 07 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:


Yes, yes, yes!

Obviously this game has massive flaws. But instead of crying and whining about it, why not start or contribute to conversations in a way that might actually make a difference?

Here's a protip: If you start a thread based on an original thought or an intriguing solution to one of the game's shortcomings -- and if you do it without whining or trying to put words in other people's mouths -- then you will invite rational discussion from people who strongly love, enjoy, mildly enjoy, mildly dislike and strongly dislike the game.


Thayos, don't tell me your that naive. SE specially commented at how many NA Beta testers were giving feedback(solutions) to the problems found within the game. I believe their answer was your typical "JP Dev laughs... Ya we got twice as much input from NA than anyone else". Now instead of using that knowledge and delaying FFXIV so they could work out the kinks, SE releases an unfinished game. They clearly have made their choice that our opinions don't count. SE has no excuses Thayos. This isn't about whining, this about being ****** off how much money we plunked down to play this **** of a game, for nothing. I wasn't expecting a perfect game nor was anyone else at launch. That begin said, we were expecting a new game out of the box that learned from their previous game MMO FFXI.

You can whine all you want about people complaining and not providing solutions, but guess what Thayos, SE had tons of tester data submitted and instead of listening and adjusting, they simply rushed the game out unfinished. That is not a company that deserves our patience or respect. I can't believe your so blind not to see this truth. The time for rational "solution threads" is over, SE has all the info they need and nothing we say now will change that.
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