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The Whining Must Stop. (Revised)Follow

#52 Nov 07 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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listen, this whole instant gratification thing is ridiculous, no one is asking for airships, mounts, endgame. People want to just enjoy the **** game! I am not paying SE to work and feel like I am crafting/gathering more than fighting or partying/questing. I cant help but feel like this game is missing some of its magic that FFXI had when I first played it. The world actually felt alive and that everyone was enjoying themselves and there was TONS to do. Please, to try and say that this game takes time to get better is just silly, this mmo came out thinking they were trying to push the envelope but instead they are going backwards. It is not too much to ask when people want to enjoy themselves when they have to be worried about repairing their gear with crafting or looking for someone to do it for you? Why do I feel like I'm not doing anything more worthwhile when I play it after I finish my leve's? Why is the community nothing like it used to be in FFXI? Frankly, I dont see this mmo lasting too long unfortunately because this game would need a complete overhaul if it were going to make changes that would persuade the majority of people.
#53 Nov 07 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
You can whine all you want about people complaining and not providing solutions, but guess what Thayos, SE had tons of tester data submitted and instead of listening and adjusting, they simply rushed the game out unfinished. That is not a company that deserves our patience or respect. I can't believe your so blind not to see this truth. The time for rational "solution threads" is over, SE has all the info they need and nothing we say now will change that.


Actually, Square Enix has made tremendous strides over the past couple of years to improve its communication with its customers. And how are we, as a community, responding? By ranting and raving about everything under the sun, of course!

I also disagree that the time for rational thought is over. There is no expiration date on rational thought.

Do you honestly believe the development team is at fault for the current state of the game? Do you really think it was their decision to push the game out early, and not the decision of people above them who care more about financial goals than the quality of the games?

People who honestly want this game to do well need to take a deep breath and calm down. And yes, some of them really need to stop whining. It's not constructive. It's annoying.
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Thayos Redblade
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#54 Nov 07 2010 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
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FFXI was hard but it was really fun and required a lot of creative thinking and skills. Equiping all different sets of gears for hate holding, evasion, Str +. Acc+, Elemental debuffs, Buffs/heal. The timing to stun. DD doing massive damage while watching and ping ponging hates. Healer watching Tank's HP and using heal in the most economical way without drawing hates. Blm and Rdm Debuffs and Nuking. SATA, Rdm Kiting, Thf Kiting, Blm Kiting. It was all crazily hard but fulling because we had so much room to play with our skill and ideas.

FFXIV feel like a WII game with pretty graphics. The Leve is really really fun but nothing more. EXP/SP is broken and I kind of lost interest. I missed Melee Burn, Mnk Party, Rng Pty, Ninja and Thf Party, Blm Party, conventional Party. They are also grinding but lotsa fun and fast pace and very very fullfilling. Without auto play function, we cannot even social with party members or dsicussion of party strategies. Forget about going to Bathroom, we probably have to copy the South Park WOW episode.

A lot of us play game for fun. I am a mature 45yrs old with a career and a business. I am here to unwind and seeking entertainment, not empty grinding and to be told we are whining. SE should have really listen to the customer like all other business. We all love many of the older SE product and somehow along the way, they became arrogant and lost their way.
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#55 Nov 08 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI was hard but it was really fun and required a lot of creative thinking and skills. Equiping all different sets of gears for hate holding, evasion, Str +. Acc+, Elemental debuffs, Buffs/heal. The timing to stun. DD doing massive damage while watching and ping ponging hates. Healer watching Tank's HP and using heal in the most economical way without drawing hates. Blm and Rdm Debuffs and Nuking. SATA, Rdm Kiting, Thf Kiting, Blm Kiting. It was all crazily hard but fulling because we had so much room to play with our skill and ideas.


FFXI also had years to be properly balanced out, and for different jobs to evolve into different roles. This game is barely more than a month old. The way battles were fought in FFXI evolved for quite some time... in fact, the type of battle you mentioned above became extremely rare in FFXI for a long time because of the advent of TP burns. I think Abyssea may have fixed some of that though, but I can't say for certain... haven't been back to XI since XIV started.

Back on topic though, all of these adjustments will come, but that perfect balance isn't something you can expect right out of the box... and that's separate from all of the glaring issues this game has. Battle balancing is just one of those things that takes time. And as new expansions/jobs/gear is added to the game over time, the dynamics of battle will always need to be adjusted.

That said, I've actually been impressed with the gladiator's abilities that require specifically timed uses, such as using phalanx after a shield block. I'm with you on wishing there were an option for auto attacking -- like you, I'm a somewhat older gamer, and I enjoy the chance to unwind and chat with ls mates -- but this battle system has plenty of promise.
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Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#56 Nov 08 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Actually, Square Enix has made tremendous strides over the past couple of years to improve its communication with its customers.


I agree, but I also feel that this is akin to defending SE on the grounds that they're the "Most Improved Student" because they've upped their GPA to a D average.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#57 Nov 08 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I agree, but I also feel that this is akin to defending SE on the grounds that they're the "Most Improved Student" because they've upped their GPA to a D average.


Well if SE has a D now, then they had an F - - - - - - - - - before.

And this isn't about "defending" SE. It's about being rational and respectful. It's easy to point fingers at the development team and accuse them of ignoring us, but none of us know (myself included) what went on behind closed doors that caused the game to be released as early as it was. If the devs were under pressure to push this out, I imagine that's why many of our beta suggestions never made it into the "finished" product.
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Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#58 Nov 08 2010 at 12:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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No, I absolutely agree. There's no way to know who's to blame for the current state that FFXIV is in. However, after XI, I'm in no way prepared to give the developers the benefit of the doubt.

(And I don't think an F---------- would be unfair in light of the way feedback was completely ignored for years, then very slowly and half-heartedly implemented in later years. I mean, it actually would have been better if they had just come out and said, "We're not really listening to your feedback, so don't bother. At least then we would have known where we stood.)

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 10:27pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#59 Nov 08 2010 at 1:19 AM Rating: Excellent
That's exactly what I'm saying, though. Given the financial data that was posted in the other thread -- as well as the state of the global economy during the past couple of years -- whether the devs were listening to us may have been completely irrelevant if they were told to push out the game by a certain date.

The devs could have been listening to every single word we said, but that doesn't mean squat if they weren't given time to implement everything they wanted.

Obviously I have no clue about what happened. I think it's safe to assume though that these guys have pride in their work, and that they wouldn't just push out such an imperfect product without some kind of reason.

There also comes a certain point when the customer has to accept that this is SE's game. There may be things SE wants to do that don't jive with what every customer wants. A good example might be the market wards. SE may implement an AH someday, or they may want this game to be built around the wards. It's a decision that may blow up in their faces, seeing as how most of us are used to the AH model of FFXI and other games. However, it's their game. We can choose whether we play it.

Edit: To prove that I'm not trying to defend the wards... I disllike the wards so much that I refuse to use them. But I'm willing to give the upcoming search features a chance.

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 11:22pm by Thayos
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Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#60 Nov 08 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally I'm open-minded about a search feature. As long as it maintains functionality similar to an AH, I'm not going to nitpick about having to do a little bit more legwork. I don't necessarily think it's a good idea, but it won't be a dealbreaker.

This next year or so (if the game survives that long) will be the critical test of the development team. Frankly, good intentions just aren't enough. If the changes don't come quickly and wisely, then a bad business decision by another department will be irrelevant. But for my part, it's hard to see some of the decisions that they've actively made and have faith in the development team. Not every complaint I have of the game can be justified with "didn't have enough time," and some are just plain indefensible.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#61Taemek, Posted: Nov 08 2010 at 2:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Facts mean you have some kind of proof and I have yet to see any real proof other then a bunch of people QQing on forums and in every constructive post there is about the game being good on some level.
#62 Nov 08 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Default
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1,408 posts
Pikko wrote:
I see the instant gratification thing a lot with my kids. If I don't get them juice in the next 2 seconds, they ask again. And again. And again. Even if I'm cooking at the stove or using the freaking bathroom.


Pikko is spot on ;)

Kids these days huh
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If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
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#63 Nov 08 2010 at 3:12 AM Rating: Default
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315 posts
I agree with tae.
With the addition of:
look. ffxiv had a rocky start. Alot of unexpected bumps in the road. How many times did they have to cancel beta cuz of a nasty crash. How many times did they fix the UI? Battle system? I don't think it was rushed, more like too many issues. And yes leveling is content as it gets you to that content. PPl are so trying to level up too fast. Also noted SE said how big ffxiv was. @ ffxi launch size meaning japan. And that also game was out 1-3 year before alot of ppl played it. meaning pc ps2 and 360 launches. We are seeing ffxiv like how the ffxi japanese launch was. The japanese also are not big on pc games, and I think ffxi was out for ps2 first. (*need to look up that info)
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can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#64 Nov 08 2010 at 3:31 AM Rating: Decent
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1,408 posts
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
well if you don't wan't this game to be your second job then GET OUT!


Not once did I say this, yet you implied that I did. Bad!

Working at something does not mean treating it as a second job. It simply means needing to extend a certain amount of effort to get it, and not having everything be quick and easy.

I don't think you and I disagree on that.

Based on all the complaints, though, it seems there are a number of players right now who want most things handed to them.


Agree with you on this, the "Legit" players who were/are interested in this game for what it is will be made VERY happy with the two coming updates. Those people have since been quiet and are just doing the right thing and being patient. Some of the nice posts created to compliment this game are the same old we have seen but some are actually interesting to read because they do say new things.

Where as the complaint threads are all complaining about things which were brought up weeks ago/during the pre-order plays and when fully released/open and SE has vowed to fix them in two coming updates. Especially at the fact that New Negative threads are being made daily and usually about 2-3 a day where as compliment threads are about 1-2 a week. Although there is going to be No AH by what SE has said instead there is going to be a search function. But on the other hand who knows, SE did say a level limit will never be added to FFXI and here we go 75-99!! So you never can tell what is and whats not coming unless SE does say "It is".
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If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
let go
#65 Nov 08 2010 at 3:57 AM Rating: Default
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1,408 posts
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
You can whine all you want about people complaining and not providing solutions, but guess what Thayos, SE had tons of tester data submitted and instead of listening and adjusting, they simply rushed the game out unfinished. That is not a company that deserves our patience or respect. I can't believe your so blind not to see this truth. The time for rational "solution threads" is over, SE has all the info they need and nothing we say now will change that.


Actually, Square Enix has made tremendous strides over the past couple of years to improve its communication with its customers. And how are we, as a community, responding? By ranting and raving about everything under the sun, of course!

I also disagree that the time for rational thought is over. There is no expiration date on rational thought.

Do you honestly believe the development team is at fault for the current state of the game? Do you really think it was their decision to push the game out early, and not the decision of people above them who care more about financial goals than the quality of the games?

People who honestly want this game to do well need to take a deep breath and calm down. And yes, some of them really need to stop whining. It's not constructive. It's annoying.


Also have to remember SE said "Thank You for the CONSTRUCTIVE Feed back". Not the crying, moaning, ranting but the constructive feedback. Another words stating the problems and not complaining about them and having a hissy fit tantrum of throwing your toys out of the push chair.
I work in IT support as Network manager and trust me there is a big difference to 75% of the complaining threads to the ones who actually make a list of the flaws this game had. SE didnt respond until the Game Reviews came out, and most of them said the exact same thing the players did. Do you really think SE cares about some one having a tantrum compared to the few good players who actually wrote down all the flaws in the game. In fact a lot of the "complaints" were all the same YET they still missed a ton of things us good players wanted. And SE is giving us what we actually want.
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If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
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#66 Nov 08 2010 at 5:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Get ready for a wall of text.
Taemek wrote:


2002 MMO's were new? huh?

Can you say what MMO's have become is truely progression? I think not, not in my opinion anyway. The rat race that MMO's have become has killed the industry for the community of people that MMO's used to cater too.

Everyone seems to want UI add on's that beep and warn you of everything possibly imaginable ingame, in essence, your not even really playing for the sake of playing, but just reacting when a program tells you too.

They want fast paced action which requires too be full out DPS rat races, instead of well thought out scripted fights that require brain work to solve.


I needed somethin to tear apart tonight, this will be fun.
As you stated, Your opinion. Who were Mmo's catering to? No job shut ins who live in their parents basements and do nothing but play games all day?

Everyone wants a UI that isn't a pain in the *** to use. This is 2010, we've had this technology for years now >_> Have players been spoiled by features that give you basic information about whats happening to your character? I think not. "You are suffering gear damage," Ok we have that, now can you kindly tell me what piece so I don't have to slowly scroll thru my inventory to find and search every single thing I'm wearing so i can then unequip and repair it? I don't see how asking for something at least as basic as that is asking for too much. Just reacting to a program? Not even playing? If you really wanna be vague and make urself look ridiculous u might as well go all the way and say if everything alive is gonna die, whats the point of life? We are not Living but reacting to the enviornment around us. O.o
We play to enjoy ourselves, we like easy to use UI, and a system that alerts us about important things such as the state of my equips is a valuable tool to have.

Nothin wrong w/ fast paced action. This game is not necessarilly that. DPS race, eh FFXIV is far from becomming that, were still tryin to figure out why our DEX isn't working >_>; Although some games suffer from that more, theres a decent line between sucking and being a Decent player. You don't need the best gear around to be uber, in XIV all you need is a weapon close to ur Rank, and armor well, that doesn't matter as much since there is a lot more to choose from as of now.



Quote:
]You mean watered down. MMO's today lack soul, depth, feeling of accomplishment because things are truely too easy.

There is no time sink, there is only playing the game, period.


Actually there is such a thing as a time sink. Ignoring it won't make it go away. XIV deffinitely lacks Soul and depth imo, but i don't see that in all MMOs. I usually stick with 1, theres really no need and my MMO of choice is XI. Tons of well rounded characters, story missions that ask you to care about the world your in. Friendly communities who have to work together to move forward makes for long lasting friendships and a stronger bond w/ the community. Its not every man for himself like many other MMOs which tend to become epeen contests rather than an adventure.

Let me explain what a time sink is. A time sink is an activity or event or something that requires the player, that would be you, to waste a large amount of time doing practically nothing. Most mmos have this just to pad out the game so players dont hit lvl cap and cry about havin nothin to do and in some respects thats something every mmo needs. XI had plenty, World spawn NMs (optional), Long travel times (Boat to aht urghan is a good example), slower battle system (arguably), Grinding in parties, Besieged (which can be fun), Field manuals etc. Did it need all of that? Eh not really, the travel time could have been cut short and would have saved players a lot of time and frustration but eh whats done is done, they fixed most of it w/ teleporting Npcs and what not. XIV on the other hand has only time sinks.

Let me elaborate. The main story quests, the driving force behind the game. Are extremely short. Other than the 1st quest you get when picking a nation, most of the quests are about 20min long. Lets look @ Gridania as it is my starting city. I'll try and keep it spoiler free~ After the rather long Opening mission, the next quest in our lineup is Whispers in the wood. You must be rank 8 which is perfectly fine gives you some time to get used to the game. But there is nothing but run here, CS, run there CS, go talk 2 a moogle, come back to the city, go 2 archers guild, ur basically done, come back @ Rank 15. Which consisted of 1 boss fight and was rather short as well. The next quest @ Rank20 was even shorter. Talk to an Npc in Ul'dah yadada talky backstory, pick a Path companion ur done come back @ R26... The inbetween time where your leveling those rank is where the time sink comes into play. You see, there are no other quests beside the R20 Guild quest which is even shorter than the last main story quest ( and there isn't another till R30 o joy) other than Leves. Leves are a time sink in and of themselves. Their boring, short and limited to 8 battle & 8Craft every 36 hours. Other than that, u can craft w/ ur own mats, and grind. Thats it. Those are time sinks while your waiting to do something fun again like the story missions. Some people enjoy it, but no one enjoys it 24/7.


Quote:
I dissagree. Anima is easily controlled. Just be smart about it.

Rank is easy to get, seriously not an issue really. Seems to me that most people who complain about it, want to solo, not group up.

Do people not realize that grouping up for Sp grind groups gives you bounses to SP gain?


And heres where i stopped taking you seriously. Controlled easily, yeah @ 1Anima per 4 hours thats a total of 6Anima in 1 day. to teleport to another city it is 6Anima. After awhile it wittles away, unless you want to Pay for teleports or run on foot everywhere. Thats another time sink :O Casual players don't want to run 30minutes or longer just to get to another city to do leves, then run to another to do leves, even if they played that long. the majority of their time is spent running to another city.

Some people prefer to play solo, some only have short bursts they can play in. Rank is not an issue? Maybe you havent gotten past 20 but rank Slooooowwwwwssssss down after 20ish. When i t takes 22kSP to get 1 rank and u can go multiple fights on Yellow mobs w/ maybe 200-300 Sp in 5-6 fights? Rank becomes a problem. In this case, there is no sense of accomplishment because its a huge grind. Even in Parties, it takes 3-5 hours to sometimes get a rank or 2. Sometimes not even a full rank, i've seen plenty of CON get only half their rank around 22 in a 4hour party. SP is random and the system sucks no matter how many ppl are in your party. This is old news.

Toukai wrote:
I guess if you have no job or adult responsibilities FFXI is great. Personally, i dont have 8 hours a day to waste killing Crawlers so I can stack 12 silk threads so i can get the shoes I want. That whole situation is exactly why RMT is a rampant, unstoppable wildfire. If one makes $40 an hour, and it would take you 35 hours to farm for the 100k gil you want you want, and gil is $10 for a million from RMT, what are most adults going to do? Adults place a premium on time, and FFXI is a timesink. FFXIV is not. Personally I think buying gil amounts to paying someone to play the game for you, but, like I said, time is a premium.


Actually i didn't say this so i'm wondering why you quoted it as me... go back a page and confirm it.


Quote:
Why does someone always use this card.......its such a generic bs card to try and play in the MMO world today, it doesn't even apply.

Truth is, you don't have to play for 8 hours a day to accomplish anything, play casually and do it over a week instead, whats the big deal?

You yourself said that games have no sense of accomplishment these days. This is why. Breaking 1 Rank over a week is hardly fun at all. Especially when some players are only in their 20s. On 1 Class? That seems a little ridiculous.



Quote:
I disagree. I have no issues selling my stuff, however I spent alot of time researching what the different cities sell and don't sell, what drops and doesn't drop in those regions and move from city to city to sell my goods.

A little bit of effort goes a long way when using the economy to your advantage.


As did I, but the market wards are still a mess. I can sell plenty in the clothiers ward, I'm an armorer, and i usually got a stand overnight. Gil is pointless in XIV anyway, if you sell shards/crafted item, and do leves you'll have more than enough gil to buy anything you want. Many people including myself are millionaires in the 1st month.



Taemek wrote:
I disagree again, as you can easily ignore RMTing, you can also ignore the so called RMT actions they put in place also, because realistically, the only way you would encounter these actions is if you wanted to partake in said actions to RMT to begin with....


Just because you disagree doesn't make me wrong. Ignoring RMT and still having them is not the same as NOT having RMT.
Yes it's easy to ignore them, until they bot and /t you every hour. or Spam shouts in whole chat. Its annoying and yes some players do buy gil. Although idk who the heck would need any in XIV seeing as how easy it is to make.
I don't see how running to the Repair Npc to fix my underwear counts as "Wanting to partake in said actions to RMT to begin with" just because i can't help but see their shouts in Whole chat w/o Black listing them. Your not thinking to hard w/ these answers of urs are ya. Also according to your logic when you go to the market wards and find cheap gear and buy it, if the Retainer u bought it from happened to be from an Rmt that makes you involved in RMT activites OMG!!11!1 Get over it, there will always be Rmt in game as long as there are players who actually buy from them. as i said, if SE handles things well the RMT wont be so much of a problem.


Toukai wrote:
There will never be an AH because SE is planning to make money off people buying multiple retainers. Their just going to pretty up the wards w/ a search function and maybe some future tweaks. It still won't be as fast or time efficient.


Quote:
I guess you missed the part where SE said that in one of the up and coming oatches for Nov/Dec they would be allowing us the ability to have multiple Retainers per character then?


You didn't read my post did ya? Cuz you basically repeated what i just said. No their wont be an AH, but SE is adding more retainers...yeah i JUST said that.


Toukai wrote:
Speaking of time efficient...

You say that SE has emphasized playing in small doses. But a lot of players tend to dedicate hours to play. True there are a lot of casuals but Logging in for Leves got stale and old after a few weeks no? What else is there to do? A 20min story quest once every 5 ranks? Have u seen how big the Sp requirements are? And of course more quests will be added but as of now there is nothing, and we wont see any till next year @ least. Why should SE get my money for a game that has so little to offer? If the release had waited till march there would no doubt be a ton to do until the next big update. but as of now anyone who has played regularly for about a month has already seen most of if not all there is to see. Grinding doesn't count as content, especially w/ such a shallow party system.


Quote:
Again, speaking out your preverbal rear. More content is coming you just have to wait. No MMO is ever perfect on release, nor will it ever be perfect.

Grinding does count as content because its part of the voyage.

You should thank your lucky stars that they actually gave players another 30 days free to play........because they didn't have too.


My proverbial (i think thats the word your lookin for) Rear has yet to be disproven. Grinding does not count as content. Its a means to an end. Story, side quests, Named monsters, hidden treasures, Npc characters and environments carefully crafted to give a sense of immersion are content. An intuitive UI and party mechanics aren't technically content but at this point I think we'll take anything we can get.

Actually SE should thank its lucky stars it still has a player base thanks to those extra 30days. If they didn't, myself and a large # of other people would have been gone b4 our 1st 30days were up, instead of our 2nd 30days. They didn't have to if they wanted their game to crash and burn even faster.
The voyage isn't very exciting if its the same old thing everyday. Whats the point of hitting Rank50 if theres no endgame/new content? Well to even Access the little content we have now we need a high rank.


Quote:
SE is a powerhouse, professional, experienced game developer. They know what needs to be done, what the best time frame is to do it in, what works and what doesnt.

Toukai wrote:
Really? Cuz i haven't seen this lately. Not with their last few releases and certainly not this game.

Your crusade to stop the whiners sadly falls short as you yourself are not acknowledging the facts here.
SE, a company many of us hold dear have stamped out the trust of many faithful customers and every and all fans should be allowed to voice their opinion and frustration. There is a thread entirely dedicated to this, and there should be one for everyone like the OP who thinks they have the right to tell them to stop complaining.


[quote]Facts mean you have some kind of proof and I have yet to see any real proof other then a bunch of people QQing on forums and in every constructive post there is about the game being good on some level.

As he clearly points out, everything that everyone loves from these past MMO's have taken years of progression, even MMO virgins and thier beloved WoW, has taken years for it to become what it is today and same with every other MMO that someone has the same kind of expectations or standards for.

Sitting here in a fan based forums that is designed with the intention of consolidating people who like the game, derailing every post with your attempts to claim you have *facts* is just annoying because we all know you have no facts, no proof, nothing, nada, zilch. All you have is your opinion that FFXIV didn't out do FFXI, WoW, EQ2, L2, Vanguard, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan etc, etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah......

That game has been out for a little over a month and your expecting SE to kneel at your feet. Things take time, something younger gamers seem to not be able to grasp in todays generation which is what this is all about, instant gratification.[/quote] i cant get the quotes to work here oddly enough...but its 5am so meh.

Well after wading thru your blatent fanboyism what I understood of that is "Facts mean you have some kind of proof and I have yet to see any real proof"
Well I don't have access to all the bug reports @ SE headquarters, but we do have a handy complaints thread you could read. The next best thing I would assume is the compiled lists of things that are horribly wrong and in need of fixing.
Sure their not facts as in backed up by a team of scientists but lets look at the word Fact. A fact is ": a piece of information presented as having objective reality" Well lets see. We know for a FACT that the UI is horrendous, general consensus is that it sucks :D, Mobs have this terribly little glitch where they regen HP to nearly full if u pull them quite often, actually, let me just link you to a fantastic little blog that has pretty much everything i can think of listed in a neat & awesome fashion. http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/diary/entry?e=61205
he has links to the 1st 5 pages of this list. its a good read. (And for some reason this link isnt showing up either o.O)

I do get a kick out of how everyone takes potshots @ WoW and probably have never even played it before. Maybe their excuse is they don't like the art style, but then where does that give you the right to criticize one of the most popular MMOs around. Their doing something right if their makin all that money. Then again when the cocaine buckets start gettin low Blizzard pops out a new expansion which brings the fans back and even more to their franchise. In a business standpoint their doing everything right. I've never played WoW but I can at least respect it for what it is.

No i don't want SE to kneel @ my feet but i would kindly ask them to stop ******* on the playerbase w/ poorly designed titles such as XIV. And take the time to refine their product before they release it, and to show a little humility when the community gets as angry as we did.

And just so you get your facts right, the 60 day free trial ends the 22nd for the CE group, and only little changes have occured since launch. How long do they really think they can make their players wait for the Official release of the game?
Edit: for spelling, its late so i only caught a few obvious ones...

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 5:17am by Toukai
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#67 Nov 08 2010 at 5:24 AM Rating: Excellent
The problems happening in this community is not the free expression of opinions, whether positive or negative. It's that people are making personal, insulting attacks on others because they disagree with another person's point of view. And it happens on both sides.
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#68 Nov 08 2010 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Taemek wrote:

Why does someone always use this card.......its such a generic bs card to try and play in the MMO world today, it doesn't even apply.

Truth is, you don't have to play for 8 hours a day to accomplish anything, play casually and do it over a week instead, whats the big deal?


I think that is does. That is unless your implying games nowadays don't have this level of grinding. A person with a family and career shouldn't be penalized for having them. If it wasn't for the market crash in FFXI, I would of never bought those expensive items. Because no matter how much effort I tried to farm, it wasn't feasible for real people with lives.




Taemek wrote:

Facts mean you have some kind of proof and I have yet to see any real proof other then a bunch of people QQing on forums and in every constructive post there is about the game being good on some level.

As he clearly points out, everything that everyone loves from these past MMO's have taken years of progression, even MMO virgins and thier beloved WoW, has taken years for it to become what it is today and same with every other MMO that someone has the same kind of expectations or standards for.

Sitting here in a fan based forums that is designed with the intention of consolidating people who like the game, derailing every post with your attempts to claim you have *facts* is just annoying because we all know you have no facts, no proof, nothing, nada, zilch. All you have is your opinion that FFXIV didn't out do FFXI, WoW, EQ2, L2, Vanguard, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan etc, etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah......

That game has been out for a little over a month and your expecting SE to kneel at your feet. Things take time, something younger gamers seem to not be able to grasp in todays generation which is what this is all about, instant gratification.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 3:49am by Taemek


I disagree for several reasons. For starters, this game was rushed out the gate unfinished. You can spew "instant gratification" nonsense all you want, but it's crystal clear that FFXIV was not ready for release. Anyone who played Beta could tell you that. The fact is SE screwed up by releasing the game unfinished and that's why they aren't charging money to play. Nobody is expecting SE to cater in to every whim. The fact of the matter is FFXIV is unplayable for the majority of people "playing" it. These gripes aren't simply fixes from the lists I've read either. Basically the majority wants the game rebuilt from the ground up it's so flawed. The crappy battle engine really shocked me honestly. I would of never expected a step down from FFXI, but that's what we got in the FFXIV combat system.

There are a ton of MMO's out there right now competing for your money. Never mind the fact that Star Wars was delayed to next year because they want to put out a solid finished product unlike FFXIV. I mean seriously, SE couldn't even have FFXIV ready for launch on the PS3. As luck would have it SE's sales numbers show up and it seems all their games in the last quarter have sucked Opo-opo balls. You might be willing to give SE more of a chance to fix their mess of a game, but it ain't 2002 any longer. There is more of a choice than Ultima and Everquest. The bottom line is line alright. If SE fixes 90% of the problems and makes the game fun to play and not laggy, there are still a lot of people who won't be coming back myself included. It's not just because of the epic failure known as FFXIV either. It's because of the terrible customer service, worthless GM's, silly RMT policies, and lackluster updates on FFXI over the years. Thayos and others might argue SE has made improvements over the years which I can't deny, but it's too little and too late for me.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 6:14am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#69 Nov 08 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Default
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169 posts
Toukai wrote:

I needed somethin to tear apart tonight, this will be fun.
As you stated, Your opinion. Who were Mmo's catering to? No job shut ins who live in their parents basements and do nothing but play games all day?

Everyone wants a UI that isn't a pain in the *** to use. This is 2010, we've had this technology for years now >_> Have players been spoiled by features that give you basic information about whats happening to your character? I think not. "You are suffering gear damage," Ok we have that, now can you kindly tell me what piece so I don't have to slowly scroll thru my inventory to find and search every single thing I'm wearing so i can then unequip and repair it? I don't see how asking for something at least as basic as that is asking for too much. Just reacting to a program? Not even playing? If you really wanna be vague and make urself look ridiculous u might as well go all the way and say if everything alive is gonna die, whats the point of life? We are not Living but reacting to the enviornment around us. O.o
We play to enjoy ourselves, we like easy to use UI, and a system that alerts us about important things such as the state of my equips is a valuable tool to have.


You seem to be under the false impression like many others, that you *have* to repair something the moment it is damaged at 75%. In actual fact, the only real time you need to repair is below 40 - 30% at which point the detrimental effects due to repair comes into play, you can barely notice it until that point, which I doubt you will even do daily, as a casual player I am betting more along the lines of 3 days.

When I say UI mods, I mean UI mods like what they did with WoW. Way over board.......that sort of thing should not be allowed to happen to any game when people recruit you to group providing you have ex-type of UI mod etc etc.

I personally hate UI mods, I mean its swell that people are skilled enough to make them and its nice of them to spend thier time doing it, but at the same time, I feel it takes away from the atmosphere of the game, pollutes it and makes it stagnate.

UI skins on the other hand, np. UI skins do not take away your ability to play your class by replacing it with a sense of artifical intelligence where the program does the thnking for you.


Toukai wrote:

Nothin wrong w/ fast paced action. This game is not necessarilly that. DPS race, eh FFXIV is far from becomming that, were still tryin to figure out why our DEX isn't working >_>; Although some games suffer from that more, theres a decent line between sucking and being a Decent player. You don't need the best gear around to be uber, in XIV all you need is a weapon close to ur Rank, and armor well, that doesn't matter as much since there is a lot more to choose from as of now.


You miss my point completely. Fast pased MMO's seem to be the in thing these days because what they lack in soul, depth, they make up for in flashy graphics, cool fighting moves and fast paced action that requires you to be 150% zoned in like a rabbid dog foaming at the mouth at all times which imho is all too exhausting at the end of a hard days work and with such, only become DPS races. I never said FFXIV was that, which is why I like it so much. I have to actually pay attention to what I am doing and read my chat screen and plan my attacks out rather then mash buttons while weaving with my auto attack damage and god forbid if you have over 100 ping, to maximize my DPS potential to race the mob to death before it 1 shots you because you took too long.

Your ability to play your class should not be considered in your ability to do its main role, I mean, yes sure it plays a certain part in it but it shouldn't be the end all variable. It should be considered in how you react during that period of time that you are encountered with the big bad monster.



Toukai wrote:

Actually there is such a thing as a time sink. Ignoring it won't make it go away. XIV deffinitely lacks Soul and depth imo, but i don't see that in all MMOs. I usually stick with 1, theres really no need and my MMO of choice is XI. Tons of well rounded characters, story missions that ask you to care about the world your in. Friendly communities who have to work together to move forward makes for long lasting friendships and a stronger bond w/ the community. Its not every man for himself like many other MMOs which tend to become epeen contests rather than an adventure.

Let me explain what a time sink is. A time sink is an activity or event or something that requires the player, that would be you, to waste a large amount of time doing practically nothing. Most mmos have this just to pad out the game so players dont hit lvl cap and cry about havin nothin to do and in some respects thats something every mmo needs. XI had plenty, World spawn NMs (optional), Long travel times (Boat to aht urghan is a good example), slower battle system (arguably), Grinding in parties, Besieged (which can be fun), Field manuals etc. Did it need all of that? Eh not really, the travel time could have been cut short and would have saved players a lot of time and frustration but eh whats done is done, they fixed most of it w/ teleporting Npcs and what not. XIV on the other hand has only time sinks.


Timesink is all in your head and a very poor way at trying to make a point that doesn't exsist. You play the game, period. Same as a mechanic does repairs on a car, a child plays with his toys or the butcher cuts the meat.

We simply don't use the term, timesink in any real world sceanrio. You don't see people going:

Mum: "Where is Johnny?"
Dad: "Over there playing with his toys, honey."
Mum: "Wow, what a wasted timesink!"

The exact same applies here, there is no timesink, there is people *playing* the game.




Toukai wrote:

Let me elaborate. The main story quests, the driving force behind the game. Are extremely short. Other than the 1st quest you get when picking a nation, most of the quests are about 20min long. Lets look @ Gridania as it is my starting city. I'll try and keep it spoiler free~ After the rather long Opening mission, the next quest in our lineup is Whispers in the wood. You must be rank 8 which is perfectly fine gives you some time to get used to the game. But there is nothing but run here, CS, run there CS, go talk 2 a moogle, come back to the city, go 2 archers guild, ur basically done, come back @ Rank 15. Which consisted of 1 boss fight and was rather short as well. The next quest @ Rank20 was even shorter. Talk to an Npc in Ul'dah yadada talky backstory, pick a Path companion ur done come back @ R26... The inbetween time where your leveling those rank is where the time sink comes into play. You see, there are no other quests beside the R20 Guild quest which is even shorter than the last main story quest ( and there isn't another till R30 o joy) other than Leves. Leves are a time sink in and of themselves. Their boring, short and limited to 8 battle & 8Craft every 36 hours. Other than that, u can craft w/ ur own mats, and grind. Thats it. Those are time sinks while your waiting to do something fun again like the story missions. Some people enjoy it, but no one enjoys it 24/7.


Likely the only thing I will agree on. I play for story lines. My friends call me sadistic cause I read everything, I even stop and talk to every NPC I met several times during my characters life to make sure they have no new quests.

I am a quester by nature and I read every word in every sentance.

I assume with the up and coming patches the story will become much more deeper and thicker. Wrought with danger.



Toukai wrote:

And heres where i stopped taking you seriously. Controlled easily, yeah @ 1Anima per 4 hours thats a total of 6Anima in 1 day. to teleport to another city it is 6Anima. After awhile it wittles away, unless you want to Pay for teleports or run on foot everywhere. Thats another time sink :O Casual players don't want to run 30minutes or longer just to get to another city to do leves, then run to another to do leves, even if they played that long. the majority of their time is spent running to another city.


This is where I help you become an educated MMO player.

Here is what I do and I never go under 90 Anima, ever. First off, this will be hard to believe, but I ran everywhere to open up new locations to teleport too, starting with Ul'dah and Limsa Lominsa. I too started in Gridania.

I tend to ethier begin my rotation in Gridania. I get all the Leve's I want to do in that area, I do them. From Gridania after I have completed my rotation, I advertise that I am teleporting to Ul'dah, I do all the Leve's in Ul'dah I wish to seek out and head over too Limsa Lominsa to finish my rotation here and then I camp the rest of my Leve reset time out here grinding mobs, crafting, looking at the sceanry, etc etc. You know, playing the game. NOTE - I run to Limsa Lominsa cause its a simple and quick run, if you just miss the boat, run back up the hill and kill mobs while you wait. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

Once the Leve timer has reset, I get all the leve's again in Limsa Lominsa cause I am already still here, move back onto Ul'dah by runninng back, advertise that I am teleporting over to Gridania and once again, once I am done here, spend the rest of my time crafting, grinding or checking places out. Rinse/repeat.

As you said, 6 anima = 24 hours, Leve reset time = 36 hours. So my Anima is well and truely regen'd.

There is only con's from doing this, you make alot of Gil from transporting people every 36 hours at the cost of 6 Anima every 36 hours. I teleported a group of 6 people at 15k a pop the other night. Another good thing is, you are swapping Leve plates between regions which is great for bonus rewards and etc Gil.

Micro manage yourself, it's not a hard thing to do. Just because you have a teleport feature, doesn't mean your suppose to use it every time you want to go somewhere. Teleporting to camps is a big no no, run there. Only teleport to cities you can't easily run too.



Toukai wrote:

Some people prefer to play solo, some only have short bursts they can play in. Rank is not an issue? Maybe you havent gotten past 20 but rank Slooooowwwwwssssss down after 20ish. When i t takes 22kSP to get 1 rank and u can go multiple fights on Yellow mobs w/ maybe 200-300 Sp in 5-6 fights? Rank becomes a problem. In this case, there is no sense of accomplishment because its a huge grind. Even in Parties, it takes 3-5 hours to sometimes get a rank or 2. Sometimes not even a full rank, i've seen plenty of CON get only half their rank around 22 in a 4hour party. SP is random and the system sucks no matter how many ppl are in your party. This is old news.


I can't relate cause I am getting 150 - 200+ SP off Dodo's at rank 15, soon to be Rank 16 and I play casually and feel I am leveling too fast. I have been in groups where I was getting 400+ SP......so I can't share in your opinion, I feel for the most part, what your saying, its slightly over exagerated, but conisdering I have only been playing a week and a half and to be 40% through the leveling curve, I am finding it too easy to progress tbh. Then again, I play MMORPG's to group and socialize, not be anti-social and solo. If I wanted that, I'd play a Console game.


Toukai wrote:

You yourself said that games have no sense of accomplishment these days. This is why. Breaking 1 Rank over a week is hardly fun at all. Especially when some players are only in their 20s. On 1 Class? That seems a little ridiculous.


Huh? Where would you expect to be after only playing the game for the last month? Seriously......the leveling curve is fine, it sounds to me you expect to be Rank 50 by now.




Toukai wrote:

As did I, but the market wards are still a mess. I can sell plenty in the clothiers ward, I'm an armorer, and i usually got a stand overnight. Gil is pointless in XIV anyway, if you sell shards/crafted item, and do leves you'll have more than enough gil to buy anything you want. Many people including myself are millionaires in the 1st month.


So your orginal point is moot then?




Toukai wrote:

Just because you disagree doesn't make me wrong. Ignoring RMT and still having them is not the same as NOT having RMT.
Yes it's easy to ignore them, until they bot and /t you every hour. or Spam shouts in whole chat. Its annoying and yes some players do buy gil. Although idk who the heck would need any in XIV seeing as how easy it is to make.
I don't see how running to the Repair Npc to fix my underwear counts as "Wanting to partake in said actions to RMT to begin with" just because i can't help but see their shouts in Whole chat w/o Black listing them. Your not thinking to hard w/ these answers of urs are ya. Also according to your logic when you go to the market wards and find cheap gear and buy it, if the Retainer u bought it from happened to be from an Rmt that makes you involved in RMT activites OMG!!11!1 Get over it, there will always be Rmt in game as long as there are players who actually buy from them. as i said, if SE handles things well the RMT wont be so much of a problem.


RMT, Botting, hacking, cheating. It's all part and parcel of the MMO industry today and more so in the Westernized culture of the world due to peoples need for instant gratification. Your taking what I said out of context or having a hard time grasping at straws for an argument that you know has no point for the sake of being right here.

Again, your derailing from your orginal point......



Toukai wrote:

You didn't read my post did ya? Cuz you basically repeated what i just said. No their wont be an AH, but SE is adding more retainers...yeah i JUST said that.


My retainer cost me nothing is my point, your not too bright are you? You clearly said, "SE want us to *buy* more retainers..." Indicating that we already pay for them, which we don't.



Toukai wrote:

My proverbial (i think thats the word your lookin for) Rear has yet to be disproven. Grinding does not count as content. Its a means to an end. Story, side quests, Named monsters, hidden treasures, Npc characters and environments carefully crafted to give a sense of immersion are content. An intuitive UI and party mechanics aren't technically content but at this point I think we'll take anything we can get.

Actually SE should thank its lucky stars it still has a player base thanks to those extra 30days. If they didn't, myself and a large # of other people would have been gone b4 our 1st 30days were up, instead of our 2nd 30days. They didn't have to if they wanted their game to crash and burn even faster.
The voyage isn't very exciting if its the same old thing everyday. Whats the point of hitting Rank50 if theres no endgame/new content? Well to even Access the little content we have now we need a high rank.


So help me understand this, instead of leaving in your first 30 days free, you stay here for the next 30 days free also and complain and berate everyone who disagrees with you and rank them down just because, well, you can?

Your not rank 50 and according to your experience, you won't be Rank 50 for another 60+ days, so where is your proof there is no endgame content? *Proverbial* rear speaking again for you?



Toukai wrote:

Well after wading thru your blatent fanboyism what I understood of that is "Facts mean you have some kind of proof and I have yet to see any real proof"
Well I don't have access to all the bug reports @ SE headquarters, but we do have a handy complaints thread you could read. The next best thing I would assume is the compiled lists of things that are horribly wrong and in need of fixing.


Underlined and bold for emphasis. You have a complied list of *complaints* based of people *opinions*, is all you got, nothing else.



Toukai wrote:

Sure their not facts as in backed up by a team of scientists but lets look at the word Fact. A fact is ": a piece of information presented as having objective reality" Well lets see. We know for a FACT that the UI is horrendous, general consensus is that it sucks :D, Mobs have this terribly little glitch where they regen HP to nearly full if u pull them quite often, actually, let me just link you to a fantastic little blog that has pretty much everything i can think of listed in a neat & awesome fashion. http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/diary/entry?e=61205
he has links to the 1st 5 pages of this list. its a good read. (And for some reason this link isnt showing up either o.O)


General consensus does not equal fact. General consensus is a bunch of people agreeing on the same opinion OR share the same opinion. The other thing is, you have no real way of proving that the *majority* hate the game, because the people who enjoy playing the game don't need to come to forums and bag it out, cause they are, you know, playing the game.

The mobs are simply not coded to be pulled over certain distances once engaged in battle, its a simple, standard feature that MMO's have been using for years. There could be many reasons why they are regening HP, still dotted with abilities once combat has been released, still moving back to thier orginal point of engaugement, people chasing it and hitting it while moving back to its orginal point of engaugement. I am sure there is many other examples.



[quote=Toukai]
I do get a kick out of how everyone takes potshots @ WoW and probably have never even played it before. Maybe their excuse is they don't like the art style, but then where does that give you the right to criticize one of the most popular MMOs around. Their doing something right if their makin all that money. Then again when the cocaine buckets start gettin low Blizzard pops out a new expansion which brings the fans back and even more to their franchise. In a business standpoint their doing everything right. I've never played WoW but I can at least respect it for what it is.[/quote]

Most popular? By what standards and whose opinion?

So many people are blinded by the fact that Blizzard is so succesful and they try to use WoW as thier argument as to why they are so succesful when the truth is, that no one likes to admit, Blizzard spent years apon years apon years building thier community from the ground up with titles like Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo before even releaseing World of Warcraft. They already had literally millions upon millions of followers even before they released it. It was guaranteed success from the beginning, any other company in thier same shoes could of pulled it off by using thier community to better themselves. Here is another little tipbit of information, WoW when it hit its peak, sold 12 million copies, nice high figure, right? Lineage 2 sold 14+ million copies, do you see people running around the streets chanting Lineage 2?



[quote=Toukai]
No i don't want SE to kneel @ my feet but i would kindly ask them to stop ******* on the playerbase w/ poorly designed titles such as XIV. And take the time to refine their product before they release it, and to show a little humility when the community gets as angry as we did.

And just so you get your facts right, the 60 day free trial ends the 22nd for the CE group, and only little changes have occured since launch. How long do they really think they can make their players wait for the Official release of the game?
Edit: for spelling, its late so i only caught a few obvious ones...[/quote]

Once again, the game is a little over a month old and you seem to be very impatient and not very pratical when it comes to clear thought or discussion and you constantly derial your own points.

Anways, nice debating with you, pitty you had to rank me down though.
#70 Nov 08 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Default
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169 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Taemek wrote:

Why does someone always use this card.......its such a generic bs card to try and play in the MMO world today, it doesn't even apply.

Truth is, you don't have to play for 8 hours a day to accomplish anything, play casually and do it over a week instead, whats the big deal?


I think that is does. That is unless your implying games nowadays don't have this level of grinding. A person with a family and career shouldn't be penalized for having them. If it wasn't for the market crash in FFXI, I would of never bought those expensive items. Because no matter how much effort I tried to farm, it wasn't feasible for real people with lives.


I have 4 kids, a mortage and run my own buisness, what do you want me to say that I already haven't? The problem I see most people in, is family orientated people surround themselves with bacherlors, kids living at home still, people who can generally put in a large play sessions, which in of it self = fast progression. They see this and want it too, but can't due to real life commitments. Easy fix, surround yourself with people like yourself, find people who aim for the same play times as your do.

The general turn over in players in any new MMO in todays generation is roughly 3 months, at which point, the people who can play 12+ hours a day generally burn out and leave. The people like ourselves who have other more compounding issues in real life that hold us down from fast progression ingame, is in my opinion, what makes saving for those weeks or months for those items, its all that more rewarding and the feeling of accomplishment is that much bigger.

I am happy and fine taking my time, I have no issues with it, do you?



ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

Taemek wrote:

Facts mean you have some kind of proof and I have yet to see any real proof other then a bunch of people QQing on forums and in every constructive post there is about the game being good on some level.

As he clearly points out, everything that everyone loves from these past MMO's have taken years of progression, even MMO virgins and thier beloved WoW, has taken years for it to become what it is today and same with every other MMO that someone has the same kind of expectations or standards for.

Sitting here in a fan based forums that is designed with the intention of consolidating people who like the game, derailing every post with your attempts to claim you have *facts* is just annoying because we all know you have no facts, no proof, nothing, nada, zilch. All you have is your opinion that FFXIV didn't out do FFXI, WoW, EQ2, L2, Vanguard, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan etc, etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah......

That game has been out for a little over a month and your expecting SE to kneel at your feet. Things take time, something younger gamers seem to not be able to grasp in todays generation which is what this is all about, instant gratification.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 3:49am by Taemek


I disagree for several reasons. For starters, this game was rushed out the gate unfinished. You can spew "instant gratification" nonsense all you want, but it's crystal clear that FFXIV was not ready for release. Anyone who played Beta could tell you that. The fact is SE screwed up by releasing the game unfinished and that's why they aren't charging money to play. Nobody is expecting SE to cater in to every whim. The fact of the matter is FFXIV is unplayable for the majority of people "playing" it. These gripes aren't simply fixes from the lists I've read either. Basically the majority wants the game rebuilt from the ground up it's so flawed. The crappy battle engine really shocked me honestly. I would of never expected a step down from FFXI, but that's what we got in the FFXIV combat system.


I keep asking this question and no one can seem to answer me, by whose standards was it unfinished? Judging by those opinions of those who deem it unfinished, how many of the people do we know of that are enjoying the game in its current state OR willing to wait it out for updates and constructively suggest and post things to help others on thier journey?

My point? People who are mad are generally more vocal about it then those who are not mad, without knowing real numbers, it's crystal clear that its all hyperthectical assumptions at this point.

I base my opinion off the amount of people I see standing around Camp hubs......it looks plenty populated to me ingame.



ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There are a ton of MMO's out there right now competing for your money. Never mind the fact that Star Wars was delayed to next year because they want to put out a solid finished product unlike FFXIV. I mean seriously, SE couldn't even have FFXIV ready for launch on the PS3. As luck would have it SE's sales numbers show up and it seems all their games in the last quarter have sucked Opo-opo balls. You might be willing to give SE more of a chance to fix their mess of a game, but it ain't 2002 any longer. There is more of a choice than Ultima and Everquest. The bottom line is line alright. If SE fixes 90% of the problems and makes the game fun to play and not laggy, there are still a lot of people who won't be coming back myself included. It's not just because of the epic failure known as FFXIV either. It's because of the terrible customer service, worthless GM's, silly RMT policies, and lackluster updates on FFXI over the years. Thayos and others might argue SE has made improvements over the years which I can't deny, but it's too little and too late for me.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 6:14am by ShadowedgeFFXI


I guess at the end of the day, all the people who quote the devs from Beta saying that alot of content will be missing from release, must of missed the memo.......ethier that or people had alteriour motives during Beta which weren't helping bug report thats for sure........

From reading your last paragraph, you seem like you have been scorned by FFXI and are taking it out on FFXIV.



Edited, Nov 8th 2010 9:21am by Taemek
#71 Nov 08 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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1,408 posts
charityneverfaileth wrote:
The problems happening in this community is not the free expression of opinions, whether positive or negative. It's that people are making personal, insulting attacks on others because they disagree with another person's point of view. And it happens on both sides.


Totally agree with you, too many people so quick to nit pick posts.

SIMPLE forum rules, always have at least a quick check to see if your post has already been created. This has been a forum rule since I can remember and it's also common sense.
No need for repitition threads, Fact.
____________________________


If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
let go
#72 Nov 08 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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685 posts
Constructive Posts, or How to Become a Positive Member of the Community and Not be Whiny

It's simple really. When you're about to post, just read over what you're saying.

Examples:
Quote:
The game did this to me today! I don't understand it, this makes absolutely no sense to me! Why can't I have it this way? This game sucks!


Yes, that is a whiny post.
Quote:
This game mechanic happened to me. I don't understand why it did what it did. Has anyone else come across this before and know what to do? Is it a bug? If so we should report it either in the Feedback section or SE's feedback form.


Not a whiny post.

And now you know.
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#73 Nov 08 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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People keeps comparing 14 to 11. Saying it has lots of content, things, more fun, quests, etc. Guess what? Took it 8 years to be like that. Seems they want 8 years of upgrades, updates and 4 expansions, all in one single game and from the start. Why? At this moment, I really don't know.

Seems everyone thought was that this game was gonna be FFXI-2, same game with same content, just prettier graphics. And not even that, with parts from all other games around. I think it was too much to put under the shoulders of one single game, so can't deal with the fact that this is a complete different and new game.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 10:21am by RdeLeo
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#74 Nov 08 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
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RdeLeo wrote:
People keeps comparing 14 to 11. Saying it has lots of content, things, more fun, quests, etc. Guess what? Took it 8 years to be like that. Seems they want 8 years of upgrades, updates and 4 expansions, all in one single game and from the start. Why? At this moment, I really don't know.

Seems everyone thought was that this game was gonna be FFXI-2, same game with same content, just prettier graphics. And not even that, with parts from all other games around. I think it was too much to put under the shoulders of one single game, so can't deal with the fact that this is a complete different and new game.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 10:21am by RdeLeo


Yeah very true.

Like all things in life, people can't accept change too easily, especially when they have spent a large portion of time elsewhere.

I myself know how it feels, trying to rip yourself away from something you have spent years playing, building and striving towards perfection on a game. 7 years I played EQ1. I had an almost impossible time trying to pull myself away from it, not the game itself, but the mentaility of gameplay I had come a custom too.

You will find the same here, for alot of people they are fresh out the box of another game, most spendiing many years playing, change isn't easy when your acustom to a certain style.

However there is a huge difference between change and theme. People need to accept that different companies generate different themes and stop trying to generalize all MMO's into the same theme.

The only real thing that defines MMO's today is the theme in which they are set.
#75 Nov 08 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Taemek wrote:

I keep asking this question and no one can seem to answer me, by whose standards was it unfinished? Judging by those opinions of those who deem it unfinished, how many of the people do we know of that are enjoying the game in its current state OR willing to wait it out for updates and constructively suggest and post things to help others on thier journey?

My point? People who are mad are generally more vocal about it then those who are not mad, without knowing real numbers, it's crystal clear that its all hyperthectical assumptions at this point.

I base my opinion off the amount of people I see standing around Camp hubs......it looks plenty populated to me ingame.


It's either the game is unfinished or it's terrible beyond belief and "working as intended", take your pick. SE said that the BETA testing phase would be longer than FFXI(4 months). They lied, it was shorter than FFXI. Most of us players predicted 6 months as that's the average(ish) Beta time for games.

Oh, I wouldn't let your hub theory go to your head. The fact that most of the players are only sticking around because the game is FREE at the moment and updates are "supposed" to happen soon might be the reason for that. Let's wait a few months and see who's right on that.


Quote:

I guess at the end of the day, all the people who quote the devs from Beta saying that alot of content will be missing from release, must of missed the memo.......ethier that or people had alteriour motives during Beta which weren't helping bug report thats for sure........

From reading your last paragraph, you seem like you have been scorned by FFXI and are taking it out on FFXIV.



I didn't say content was missing, I don't know that. What I did say was that the game itself, such as the combat engine is not up to 2010 standards. By that, I'm speaking of a brand new 2010 MMORPG without years of patches, still fails. The very fact that the engine is more boring than the unpatched FFXI engine is just plain sad.

As for my experience with SE over the years, yes I think it's responsible to not be taken advantage by a company. For years, most of us FFXI players stuck around because of our friends hoping FFXI DEVS would fix all the problems. I refuse to invest that amount of time again into a new MMO by SE until they prove they are listening to the majority this time around. The inconvenient truth is most people aren't happy with the way FFXIV turned out including the SE DEVS and Wada himself. Regardless of the reasons why, we have better options out there now. It's not like it's just WoW and FFXIV. So that means we as players don't have to tolerate a game that doesn't meet our expectations. SE has done nothing in recent years to deserve our trust that they will fix this problem with us the players who complained during the Beta phase. But none of this matters to you, you see people grouping near a hub and you dismiss all the claims as invalid. So I'm though debating with you. I'll let things play out and you'll see what I was saying.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 11:20am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#76 Nov 08 2010 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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RdeLeo wrote:
KacesofCaitsith wrote:

2. Final fantasy as a whole is not a "work" + "time" game. The statment needs to be limited to one specific game - ffxi. The rest of the series is rather fluid in their progression, reqiuring minimal grinding compared to other games of the time.

****, i think the last 7 final fantasies (minus xi) can be completed without stopping once to grind.


While this is half true, yes, you can "finish" the game without grind, just keep going, but you wont "complete" it , mostly all FF games require grind in several aspects, sometimes requiring lots of time to maximize levels or skills, I'm even doing it right now in 4 heroes of light, for the gems to update all my hats. In 12 and 13, you neede a lot of grind to level up, so you can go fight the big enemies and marks. And I can keep going making examples on every FF game.

And in this part, I'm sorry, but Final Fantasy series ARE games that require both , Work and Time. And that's what I like about it.


You are talking about min/maxing and completing the game 100% - which is completely different than playing the story presented in the game. I'll use ff7 as an example, since it is fairly clear in my memory.

You can down the main boss and all of the side missions without stopping to grind really.

If you want all the rare chocobo breeds, summons and beat the two optional bosses (which if i remember right had no story or basis to them other than "see if you can"). That is important since "see if you can" does not really fly in mmo's - there needs to be either a reward or story behind the event (story being key for a SE mmo imo).

Big difference, not every ff player is a min/maxer / 100% complete gamer. And none of the games required you to do any of that to play through the game.

Nalamwen wrote:


Interesting that Final Fantasy started going downhill about 7 games ago. Eight was not as good as seven, nine was not as good as eight, ten was on par with nine but past that, they're barely worth playing besides XI. 1-7 were fantastic games. 8-10 were good, not great. 10-2 and 12 aren't worth playing. 13 is ok but far too linear. So they've become progressively worse, to me, as, as you say, they took the grind out of the game. Although I don't really think that's why.

What one person enjoys another might not. That's the real problem. MMO's have become much more popular in recent years. There is a much larger audience and they can't please everyone. But, everyone was expecting them to please them.

I've noticed that people have been much more critical of MMO's in the last few years and I believe that's why. The audience is so large now that the MMO's can't please everyone that wants to enjoy it. There are whole groups of people that wanted to enjoy the game but, after playing it, find that they're disappointed. They wanted so badly to enjoy it though that the disappointment quickly turns to anger.

I wanted to play that game but it doesn't suite my tastes, they should change it for me so that I like it. I could be wrong though.

I personally play 2-4 games per year. Out of the hundreds that are released each year that's about how many I enjoy. I don't rant about the ones that I don't enjoy though. I move on to one that I do enjoy. i.e. I really liked GTA San Andreas but I couldn't get into GTA 4. It just wasn't my style. I sold GTA 4 and got Fallout 3 and really enjoyed it.

The bugs of the game will be worked out. That much we can be sure of. Will they change their vision of the game to suit your tastes though? Who knows. Not I.



Forgive me, my memory of the older games is fuzzy at times. I do consider the 1-7 games to be the best of the series (more for story, character development and overall mechanics more than anything else). But i do not recall any sever grinding in those games either. I'll use ff1 in my example as before - it is clearer in my memory. The closest thing to a grind i did in that game was the cavern in elfland and the castle of ordeals. What i did with those was work my way through, get my *** kicked, head back to town / use a tent - then push back in. I didn't sit outside killing giants for 2 hours like a friend said (i think it was in the nintendo power guide too). I worked my way through the dungeon, retreating and resting when i needed to until i killed the boss. That to me is not a grind. Its a difficult dungeon.

I suppose, looking back at that statement, that you can interpret any of the dungeon crawls of the early games to be grinds. I suppose then it could be my playstyle or interpetation. Either way, for me they never seemed to be grindy games, both in and of themselves and compared to other similar games of the time.
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#77 Nov 08 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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charityneverfaileth wrote:
The problems happening in this community is not the free expression of opinions, whether positive or negative. It's that people are making personal, insulting attacks on others because they disagree with another person's point of view. And it happens on both sides.

I believe Pikko made a thread about that. The stop Flaming players thread is a fair warning to anyone whose only here to start a flame war bout "this game is teh suxxors and u suck for liking it". Although i think that those blindly defending SE should also be reprimanded when they go about discrediting anyone whose post has legitimate ideas and/or thoughts about the state of the game, just because their not showering praise on SE.

i don't think we'll see any less whining till after the prophesized epic Nov/Dec updates but even then people will find things to complain about. And god forbid the patches suck >_>

I think a lot of people complain because they really wanted this game to be good. And since their so epically disappointed they do nothing but rant and rave.
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#78 Nov 08 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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A couple of people have made comments along the lines of "kids these days... instant gratification," to which my professional response would be *********************

Humans haven't really changed in the last hundred years. If your kids have poor impulse control, then that's some combination of their perfectly normal genetic predisposition, and the upbringing you've provided them. Blaming "kids these days" is tantamount to blaming "parents and everything else these days." Now, I'm sure that some would happily pipe in that, "Yeah! Parents these days ARE to blame!" Overlooking the fact that the parents are also a product of their genes and environments, I have to point out that people are always wrong about how they remember the past and the glory days.

Ultimately, there is nothing significantly and uniquely wrong with kids these days versus kids from other recent generations.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#79BushwicktheBlack, Posted: Nov 08 2010 at 6:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I guess i'll be a little more direct: If you have burned through all the content available to you through FFXIV then you need to get a life. What they have released so far was not intended to be completely played out in less than a month.
#80 Nov 08 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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How can you earnestly argue that we haven't paid for the game? That's such an absurd technicality. Following that logic, I can pay $30-50 for a game disk for pretty much any other game and then play as much as I want for free! The only difference between XIV and other subscription games is that XIV is giving you one extra month because it was so bad.

So by your own reasoning, all games are basically free to play. The question then becomes, how does FFXIV compare to all the other free games? Well, I paid $80 for the CE, but I could have paid $30 for a number of other games that would have been much more fun, and there are even dozens of games that are COMPLETELY free that offer a better experience than XIV. So even if you call XIV "free," I've still spent AT LEAST an additional fifty dollars for a subpar product.

It's fine if you're going to ask people to stop complaining, or talk about how much you enjoy the game, but it's completely ridiculous to call people "shameful" for feeling ripped off by the game. I bought two copies, one for me, and one for my girlfriend. So for me, FFXIV was a waste of $160 plus tax. I could have made much better use of that money.

I wasn't even going to rate down your revised OP despite it's continued condescending tone, but frankly, yours are the most asinine posts I've read on the entire forum. And I certainly don't make it a point to tell people that I'm rating them down. Rate down. Rate way, way down.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#81BushwicktheBlack, Posted: Nov 08 2010 at 7:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You... are going to... to.. Rate me down? The unmitigated horror. I was counting on that bonus check from high ratings on a website to pay my rent this month.
#82 Nov 08 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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BushwicktheBlack wrote:

SE has placed emphasis on being able to log in and enjoy GAMEPLAY in bite sized doses. Everytime I log in I have fun, because I can do what I want, it doesnt feel like a second job.

There WILL be an AH.
There WILL be more quests.
There WILL be more jobs, mobs, zones, and story.
There WILL be a thousand more tweaks and balances, catered specifically to you, for your enjoyment. Just maybe give it a little time, yea?


Sounds like you are content at doing very little in the game. Which is fine and dandy, but... the real point of this post is:

No, no there won't be ANY changes... not unless people make complaints. You cannot just sit around and wait for things to happen. You need to actually complain about something for it to be noticed and fixed. A lot of players, including myself have found frustrating and non-fun parts of the game. Perhaps you are not dwelling into these areas or have a higher tolerance to them or perhaps you are just one of those positive people who think, "It will all work out eventually, I don't have to complain. SE will magically fix it themselves."

The game DOES have problems. Don't kid yourself. Send your feedback to SE, vent in the forums if you have to, but most importantly- do SOMETHING to make sure that SE knows there is a problem otherwise they will never fix it. Many times if someone has one complaint and they just tell SE and no one else does, SE will be like "Meh, one complaint, big deal." Whereas an entire community of people from say... ZAM... yelling and screaming about something might make them take a look at the problem.

That is all and more than I originally intended to post.


TL;DR: Complaints are necessary so long as they get directed to SE too.
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#83 Nov 08 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:


...SE's sales numbers show up and it seems all their games in the last quarter have sucked Opo-opo balls.


For that phrase alone, rated up for excellence.
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#84 Nov 08 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Yes, I will say it again.


Oh, please do. And since you care so little about the rating, it will be mutually beneficial. I won't see your posts, and you can be inane in peace.

Quote:
You feel ripped off because you bought 2 copies of the game? Maybe buying 2 copies might have something to do with that. Though I dont think 2 copies are required to play... I have played for a few hours everyday since it came out, with maybe a 1 or two day break every week, and I never ever run out of things to do. Like I said, if you truly have run dry on things to do in Final I think you might just need to go outside for a day or two then maybe rethink your stance.


Are you illiterate? I bought a copy for myself and another for my girlfriend (which as it turns out, I didn't need to, but because of SE's failure to communicate that, I did).

It's not that anyone is running out of things to do on XIV... do you really think that's an argument? Here's one for you. Go get a job at a factory in your free time. You'll never run out of things to do... unlimited content! And they PAY YOU to "play their game."

It's the quality of the existing content on top of the overall lack of content that is truly shameful in a modern MMO release.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#85 Nov 08 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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shinichoco wrote:
TL;DR: Complaints are necessary so long as they get directed to SE too.


I'll mildly point out that complaints should be directed to SE, period. No user here can effect any change at all; good, bad or otherwise. The feedback forum at the top exists for the exact purpose of allowing users to post their comments in an area where Square-Enix representatives have said they will read. Please tell them - tell them as often and as furiously as you wish. Passion does carry things a long way.

I am pretty sure they don't employ anybody to passively observe General Forums, so I am not sure why it's necessary for the complaints be directed at or possibly spewed all over the fanbase in its entirety. Are we all supposed to march up to the SE castle with pitchforks or something?

Does somebody want to sweep me off my feet and buy me a plane ticket to corporate headquarters? I could shop! I'd probably find myself glued to some glass case with an Austrian crystal chocobo inside.
#86 Nov 09 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I kinda feel that I've given SE plenty of feedback already-- I've given them pages of feedback since alpha. I've done my civic duty. Now, if anyone thinks any of my criticisms are compelling and wants to post them in the feedback forum, consider this permission to be my guest. But personally, I post in the general forum because that's what I enjoy. I do post in the feedback forum on occasion as well, but there's not as much actual discussion, so it's not as fun for me.

But I definitely encourage people who want their criticisms to be heard to take it to the feedback forum.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#87 Nov 09 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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Wall of text time again :o Broke it apart, apologize for the later triple post.

Taemek wrote:
Toukai wrote:

I needed somethin to tear apart tonight, this will be fun.
As you stated, Your opinion. Who were Mmo's catering to? No job shut ins who live in their parents basements and do nothing but play games all day?

Everyone wants a UI that isn't a pain in the *** to use. This is 2010, we've had this technology for years now >_> Have players been spoiled by features that give you basic information about whats happening to your character? I think not. "You are suffering gear damage," Ok we have that, now can you kindly tell me what piece so I don't have to slowly scroll thru my inventory to find and search every single thing I'm wearing so i can then unequip and repair it? I don't see how asking for something at least as basic as that is asking for too much. Just reacting to a program? Not even playing? If you really wanna be vague and make urself look ridiculous u might as well go all the way and say if everything alive is gonna die, whats the point of life? We are not Living but reacting to the enviornment around us. O.o
We play to enjoy ourselves, we like easy to use UI, and a system that alerts us about important things such as the state of my equips is a valuable tool to have.


You seem to be under the false impression like many others, that you *have* to repair something the moment it is damaged at 75%. In actual fact, the only real time you need to repair is below 40 - 30% at which point the detrimental effects due to repair comes into play, you can barely notice it until that point, which I doubt you will even do daily, as a casual player I am betting more along the lines of 3 days.

When I say UI mods, I mean UI mods like what they did with WoW. Way over board.......that sort of thing should not be allowed to happen to any game when people recruit you to group providing you have ex-type of UI mod etc etc.

I personally hate UI mods, I mean its swell that people are skilled enough to make them and its nice of them to spend thier time doing it, but at the same time, I feel it takes away from the atmosphere of the game, pollutes it and makes it stagnate.

UI skins on the other hand, np. UI skins do not take away your ability to play your class by replacing it with a sense of artifical intelligence where the program does the thnking for you.


I love how you completely ignored the beef of my argument there. I was talking about having a UI that wasn't based in the stone age was easy to use. You spun that off into a tangent about WoW's UI mods. Don't really know what those are, nor do i see how that is relevent at all.

Also weapons break in about 2hours of grind. whether their broken up into multiple play sessions or not the rate at which weapons degrade is insane. and no one should have to deal with that. Also some ppl combat this by carrying multiple weapons. Not only is that expensive, but w/ the inv space and amount of items we need to carry, its another thing we shouldnt have to do.


Toukai wrote:

Nothin wrong w/ fast paced action. This game is not necessarilly that. DPS race, eh FFXIV is far from becomming that, were still tryin to figure out why our DEX isn't working >_>; Although some games suffer from that more, theres a decent line between sucking and being a Decent player. You don't need the best gear around to be uber, in XIV all you need is a weapon close to ur Rank, and armor well, that doesn't matter as much since there is a lot more to choose from as of now.


Quote:
You miss my point completely. Fast pased MMO's seem to be the in thing these days because what they lack in soul, depth, they make up for in flashy graphics, cool fighting moves and fast paced action that requires you to be 150% zoned in like a rabbid dog foaming at the mouth at all times which imho is all too exhausting at the end of a hard days work and with such, only become DPS races. I never said FFXIV was that, which is why I like it so much. I have to actually pay attention to what I am doing and read my chat screen and plan my attacks out rather then mash buttons while weaving with my auto attack damage and god forbid if you have over 100 ping, to maximize my DPS potential to race the mob to death before it 1 shots you because you took too long.

Your ability to play your class should not be considered in your ability to do its main role, I mean, yes sure it plays a certain part in it but it shouldn't be the end all variable. It should be considered in how you react during that period of time that you are encountered with the big bad monster.


And what makes a fast paced game soulless? And who are you to judge? Since when did a little concentration turn into rabbid dog foaming at the mouth O.o? I've never seen that happen to anyone. Cabal online was a F2P game i played a few years back and it was a fast pace, skill game where you timed combos which were flashy as ****. It was also heavy PvP based and you know what? It was fun as ****, some games are designed to entertain via fast paced action and reflex tests as well as player skill.

In no way did that detract from the overall experience. Your oh so obvious attacks @ anything that isn't what you like has been unwanted/unneeded since your 1st post but since you insist, again allow me to point something out to ya.

"Your ability to play your class should not be considered in your ability to do its main role, I mean, yes sure it plays a certain part in it but it shouldn't be the end all variable." i dont really understand this. Are you saying that if your a Tank but you don't know how to tank... that shouldn't be...what? So if you don't have the skill required to keep the enemies attention focused on you...that it shouldnt factor into what..?

And the chat screen is pretty small, all chat, battle info, and what not crammed into 1 screen w/o the option to filter...yeah that takes skill to read. In no way is that the designers fault for creating such a convoluted mess.

And aren't you mashing the 1 key till u have enough tp to mash another key to do a weaponskill? If your r15 any melee...you dont have much choice to do anything BUT do that.



Quote:
Timesink is all in your head and a very poor way at trying to make a point that doesn't exsist. You play the game, period. Same as a mechanic does repairs on a car, a child plays with his toys or the butcher cuts the meat.

We simply don't use the term, timesink in any real world sceanrio. You don't see people going:

Mum: "Where is Johnny?"
Dad: "Over there playing with his toys, honey."
Mum: "Wow, what a wasted timesink!"

The exact same applies here, there is no timesink, there is people *playing* the game.


Its cool, keep on living in your own fantasy world. Let me point out the glaring faults in your examples.
A mechanic repairs a car because he gets paid for it. Its a Job, and he may or may not enjoy it, but he does it because he gets payed X amount by the hour. Butcher's cut meat because its their job. They get paid, same thing. Kids play with toys because its fun, their imagination takes over and they have a blast expressing their innermost creativity.

My examples of time sinks are still valid, running from Nation A to nation B because there are no effective forms of travel, is a time sink. Grinding 5 ranks so you can unlock the next story mission is a time sink. Its mean to keep you from the rest of the content, so you have to play longer and pay more money in the end. ALL MMOS USE TIMESINKS.

Actually i think wikipedia says it best "In massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs), time sinks are a method of increasing the time needed by players to do certain tasks, hopefully causing them to subscribe for longer periods of time[2]. Players may use the term disparagingly to describe a simplistic and time-consuming aspect of gameplay, possibly designed to keep players playing longer without significant benefit. Time sinks can also be used for other gameplay reasons, such as to help regenerate resources or monsters in the game world."






Edited, Nov 9th 2010 1:38am by Toukai

Edited, Nov 9th 2010 1:40am by Toukai
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#88 Nov 09 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Taemek wrote:

Toukai wrote:

Some people prefer to play solo, some only have short bursts they can play in. Rank is not an issue? Maybe you havent gotten past 20 but rank Slooooowwwwwssssss down after 20ish. When i t takes 22kSP to get 1 rank and u can go multiple fights on Yellow mobs w/ maybe 200-300 Sp in 5-6 fights? Rank becomes a problem. In this case, there is no sense of accomplishment because its a huge grind. Even in Parties, it takes 3-5 hours to sometimes get a rank or 2. Sometimes not even a full rank, i've seen plenty of CON get only half their rank around 22 in a 4hour party. SP is random and the system sucks no matter how many ppl are in your party. This is old news.


I can't relate cause I am getting 150 - 200+ SP off Dodo's at rank 15, soon to be Rank 16 and I play casually and feel I am leveling too fast. I have been in groups where I was getting 400+ SP......so I can't share in your opinion, I feel for the most part, what your saying, its slightly over exagerated, but conisdering I have only been playing a week and a half and to be 40% through the leveling curve, I am finding it too easy to progress tbh. Then again, I play MMORPG's to group and socialize, not be anti-social and solo. If I wanted that, I'd play a Console game.




He ain't exaggerating. I'm getting 64 sp per yellow dodo kill. Hes speaking the truth. Maybe its my physical level, which is 37 now. I got from rank 10-12 in 4-5 hours.

The sp is just too random and insane.

Come to think of it, its just 3 weeks back I feel that ranking up WAR classes is too easy.
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#89 Nov 09 2010 at 1:29 AM Rating: Good
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Toukai wrote:

Wall of text time again :o Apologize if part is hard to read, quotes kinda stopped workin for me.

***A Huge Sh*tload of stuff***


If? IF!?

I have my issues with the game, but I think the MOST I ever posted was 2 paragraphs. Two short paragraphs. That was nuts.
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#90 Nov 09 2010 at 1:29 AM Rating: Decent
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165 posts
Kachi wrote:
But personally, I post in the general forum because that's what I enjoy. I do post in the feedback forum on occasion as well, but there's not as much actual discussion, so it's not as fun for me.


I admit I find the mindset a little weird. You have a strong opinion about the game, you dislike most things about it apparently but would prefer to make your opinion known at top volume with long posts to... those who can't help? It sounds like you'd rather have somebody - or maybe anybody - to argue with, in favor of voting along with the yes-men in the complaint thread.

While it seems to be the prevalent mood, I still find the attitude strange. Is it just the interaction that comes from a nice, juicy argument that's compelling, more so than the problems with the game that have been listed ad nauseum? You gave your feedback apparently through proper channels but you're still riding the dead horse as if, I suppose, you intend to win the Derby with it.

And while I am saying you, Kachi, I am probably okay with extrapolating it out to the rest that fit the description of the Triple Crown Riders. It has to be the one-on-one, mano-a-mano nature of the argument itself now that brings people back to the threads, more so than the specific points being argued.

It has all been said before but I would be happy to storm the SE headquarters if that will help half the board find peace. SE can probably absorb some toilet paper to the facade and it will give the cleaning people something to do on a Monday night.
#91 Nov 09 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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Vorkosigan wrote:
Toukai wrote:

Wall of text time again :o Apologize if part is hard to read, quotes kinda stopped workin for me.

***A Huge Sh*tload of stuff***


If? IF!?

I have my issues with the game, but I think the MOST I ever posted was 2 paragraphs. Two short paragraphs. That was nuts.

Would it be better if i broke it into multiple posts containing the same info?
didn't really wanna quadruple post in a row but here we go~


Toukai wrote:

Let me elaborate. The main story quests, the driving force behind the game. Are extremely short. Other than the 1st quest you get when picking a nation, most of the quests are about 20min long. Lets look @ Gridania as it is my starting city. I'll try and keep it spoiler free~ After the rather long Opening mission, the next quest in our lineup is Whispers in the wood. You must be rank 8 which is perfectly fine gives you some time to get used to the game. But there is nothing but run here, CS, run there CS, go talk 2 a moogle, come back to the city, go 2 archers guild, ur basically done, come back @ Rank 15. Which consisted of 1 boss fight and was rather short as well. The next quest @ Rank20 was even shorter. Talk to an Npc in Ul'dah yadada talky backstory, pick a Path companion ur done come back @ R26... The inbetween time where your leveling those rank is where the time sink comes into play. You see, there are no other quests beside the R20 Guild quest which is even shorter than the last main story quest ( and there isn't another till R30 o joy) other than Leves. Leves are a time sink in and of themselves. Their boring, short and limited to 8 battle & 8Craft every 36 hours. Other than that, u can craft w/ ur own mats, and grind. Thats it. Those are time sinks while your waiting to do something fun again like the story missions. Some people enjoy it, but no one enjoys it 24/7.


Quote:
Likely the only thing I will agree on. I play for story lines. My friends call me sadistic cause I read everything, I even stop and talk to every NPC I met several times during my characters life to make sure they have no new quests.

I am a quester by nature and I read every word in every sentance.

I assume with the up and coming patches the story will become much more deeper and thicker. Wrought with danger.


Hope your willing to wait a few months then =D


Toukai wrote:

And heres where i stopped taking you seriously. Controlled easily, yeah @ 1Anima per 4 hours thats a total of 6Anima in 1 day. to teleport to another city it is 6Anima. After awhile it wittles away, unless you want to Pay for teleports or run on foot everywhere. Thats another time sink :O Casual players don't want to run 30minutes or longer just to get to another city to do leves, then run to another to do leves, even if they played that long. the majority of their time is spent running to another city.


Quote:
This is where I help you become an educated MMO player.

Here is what I do and I never go under 90 Anima, ever. First off, this will be hard to believe, but I ran everywhere to open up new locations to teleport too, starting with Ul'dah and Limsa Lominsa. I too started in Gridania.

I tend to ethier begin my rotation in Gridania. I get all the Leve's I want to do in that area, I do them. From Gridania after I have completed my rotation, I advertise that I am teleporting to Ul'dah, I do all the Leve's in Ul'dah I wish to seek out and head over too Limsa Lominsa to finish my rotation here and then I camp the rest of my Leve reset time out here grinding mobs, crafting, looking at the sceanry, etc etc. You know, playing the game. NOTE - I run to Limsa Lominsa cause its a simple and quick run, if you just miss the boat, run back up the hill and kill mobs while you wait. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

Once the Leve timer has reset, I get all the leve's again in Limsa Lominsa cause I am already still here, move back onto Ul'dah by runninng back, advertise that I am teleporting over to Gridania and once again, once I am done here, spend the rest of my time crafting, grinding or checking places out. Rinse/repeat.

As you said, 6 anima = 24 hours, Leve reset time = 36 hours. So my Anima is well and truely regen'd.

There is only con's from doing this, you make alot of Gil from transporting people every 36 hours at the cost of 6 Anima every 36 hours. I teleported a group of 6 people at 15k a pop the other night. Another good thing is, you are swapping Leve plates between regions which is great for bonus rewards and etc Gil.

Micro manage yourself, it's not a hard thing to do. Just because you have a teleport feature, doesn't mean your suppose to use it every time you want to go somewhere. Teleporting to camps is a big no no, run there. Only teleport to cities you can't easily run too.



Wow you scheduled that stuff, sounds kinda like a routine..or a job. So you Grind leves, run to next city, grind leves, run to next city. Camp there and grind mobs. Sounds Samey. Tell me whats so much fun bout repeating the exact same leves over again and again? Are they that compelling to you? Leves are boring. Their the most basic of the basic quests around.

So you save Anima by wasting about an hour running between cities. yeah that sounds real appealing w/ the size the zone is. Again like i said, Casual players don't want to be forced to run for an hour because the game has a rather harsh limitation on Anima regen. Oh heres an example your ready to teleport to Say idk, Ul'dah and u finished ur leves and u teleport and ur plan to to stay there till next reset. But o noes u forgot ur retainer is in a ward sellin stuff. Now u have to go back, tell her to stop sellin, and then either waste more anima or run back. Of course u could also Buy a tele from someone but that again isn't something players should be cornered into.




Quote:
I can't relate cause I am getting 150 - 200+ SP off Dodo's at rank 15, soon to be Rank 16 and I play casually and feel I am leveling too fast. I have been in groups where I was getting 400+ SP......so I can't share in your opinion, I feel for the most part, what your saying, its slightly over exagerated, but conisdering I have only been playing a week and a half and to be 40% through the leveling curve, I am finding it too easy to progress tbh. Then again, I play MMORPG's to group and socialize, not be anti-social and solo. If I wanted that, I'd play a Console game.



Ah ur only rank 15. That explains why u have such high hopes still. Yeah i got about that much sp off Dodos too. Shame u hit a massive wall around R20-25 and Sp becomes scarce.
40% thru the curve? U do realize its like 100k sp to get from R48-49. @ R20 SP requirements begin to up by 2k a rank as well.

a week and a half and you think u know more bout the way the game works than i do, priceless~ :o

Just because its an MMO doesn't make soloers anti social. You do realize that if your going to set up a SP party in say, Cassiopia Hollows you need to find the correct classes to group w/ and everyone has to be in 5 ranks of each other or their is no party bonus. On top of that SP generation is extremely random. R1-20 are easy u can do em solo pretty quickly after 20 though grouping becomes mandatory basically. If your a casual player you don't always have time to dedicate 5 hours to getting 1-2ranks @ 20ish. you break that into a week and maybe, but then again u probably wont be in parties for long.


Edited, Nov 9th 2010 1:35am by Toukai
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#92 Nov 09 2010 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
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Toukai wrote:

You yourself said that games have no sense of accomplishment these days. This is why. Breaking 1 Rank over a week is hardly fun at all. Especially when some players are only in their 20s. On 1 Class? That seems a little ridiculous.


Quote:
Huh? Where would you expect to be after only playing the game for the last month? Seriously......the leveling curve is fine, it sounds to me you expect to be Rank 50 by now.


Not at all, but i see no point in ranking up or leveling, other than the fact that i frikkin HAVE to if i want to see any more of the story. The curve itself is pretty steep, it requires a MASSIVE grind for 1 class, and since this game asks you to play more than 1 class to maximize your character, your lookin at one never ending grind. A grind w/ no drive, or motivation other than the fact that you cant progress the story until you go thru with it.


Toukai wrote:

As did I, but the market wards are still a mess. I can sell plenty in the clothiers ward, I'm an armorer, and i usually got a stand overnight. Gil is pointless in XIV anyway, if you sell shards/crafted item, and do leves you'll have more than enough gil to buy anything you want. Many people including myself are millionaires in the 1st month.


Quote:
So your orginal point is moot then?


The point is that the market wards is a journey into frustration. Its not friendly at all and is slowly getting better but for the last month 1/2 its been 1 giant mess. It can be used to sell stuff and you might sell things but the consumer has to go thru an awful lot of work to find the products their lookin for. Those who lease the little shops for a paltry 500 gil a day are always the 1st to be checked. Its one of the main reasons i sell anything. But i find that its easier to just shout in town and hope u get lucky than use the wards.

And the value of gil has gotten pretty low as well w/ how easy it is to get. Not really abad thing if your a hoarder.




Quote:
RMT, Botting, hacking, cheating. It's all part and parcel of the MMO industry today and more so in the Westernized culture of the world due to peoples need for instant gratification. Your taking what I said out of context or having a hard time grasping at straws for an argument that you know has no point for the sake of being right here.

Again, your derailing from your orginal point......


Actually my original point was to counter your point that it doesn't exist as long as you ignore it. And here you are admitting it does in fact exist =D Denial can be cruel, baby steps.


Toukai wrote:

You didn't read my post did ya? Cuz you basically repeated what i just said. No their wont be an AH, but SE is adding more retainers...yeah i JUST said that.


My retainer cost me nothing is my point, your not too bright are you? You clearly said, "SE want us to *buy* more retainers..." Indicating that we already pay for them, which we don't.[/quote]

you don't keep up w/ the info floatin around do ya? SE has stated that we will be allowed to purchase Multiple retainers for an extra 1$ a month. Its a feature thats been advertised for awhile but hasn't actually been implemented. If you go to your SE account, under optional services there is a Character purchase and will soon be a Retainer purchase tab as well.

Charging players for initial storage place would be silly. You didn't read the manual did ya. go to page 23 of your manual. # 2 select add new options. see the image? X# of retainers left to purchase. You buy the extra retainers, and they are added to your monthly subscription. I'm sure u could find the info on the lodestone somewhere too.



Toukai wrote:

My proverbial (i think thats the word your lookin for) Rear has yet to be disproven. Grinding does not count as content. Its a means to an end. Story, side quests, Named monsters, hidden treasures, Npc characters and environments carefully crafted to give a sense of immersion are content. An intuitive UI and party mechanics aren't technically content but at this point I think we'll take anything we can get.

Actually SE should thank its lucky stars it still has a player base thanks to those extra 30days. If they didn't, myself and a large # of other people would have been gone b4 our 1st 30days were up, instead of our 2nd 30days. They didn't have to if they wanted their game to crash and burn even faster.
The voyage isn't very exciting if its the same old thing everyday. Whats the point of hitting Rank50 if theres no endgame/new content? Well to even Access the little content we have now we need a high rank.


Quote:
So help me understand this, instead of leaving in your first 30 days free, you stay here for the next 30 days free also and complain and berate everyone who disagrees with you and rank them down just because, well, you can?

Your not rank 50 and according to your experience, you won't be Rank 50 for another 60+ days, so where is your proof there is no endgame content? *Proverbial* rear speaking again for you?


I haven't berated or flamed anyone mind you. If i have please point me to that post. Also i've only rated you down recently and no one else. And that rank down was to this post i'm replying to because frankly, it makes even less sense than the its predecessor.

Well for 1 SE already listed what content is in game atm. There aren't many story missions btw. Actually i stayed because of my LS members, as i was the main crafter and was desperatly hoping for some patches and fixes to ease the burden of playing. Because i really wanted this game to succeed and bring about a bright future of MMOs....as of now its just stagnating in bad design choices and bugs with very little content broken up by humongous grinds.

Complaints aren't necessarilly a bad thing, if all we see are complaints yes its annoying, thats what our complaint thread is for... However this defense of SE is also getting annoying. There are those who say that the "whiners" either need to stfu or gtfo and how is that helpful? If anything fans of the game should be vocal about the problems in XIV so that they get the attention they deserve and get fixed. Ignoring the problems wont make them go away, but acknowledging them as a community and thinking of ways to solve/work around current problems to help the community while SE works on fixing the problems is Ideally what we're going for but the world aint perfect.



Toukai wrote:

Well after wading thru your blatent fanboyism what I understood of that is "Facts mean you have some kind of proof and I have yet to see any real proof"
Well I don't have access to all the bug reports @ SE headquarters, but we do have a handy complaints thread you could read. The next best thing I would assume is the compiled lists of things that are horribly wrong and in need of fixing.


Quote:
Underlined and bold for emphasis. You have a complied list of *complaints* based of people *opinions*, is all you got, nothing else.

see next part~



Toukai wrote:
Sure their not facts as in backed up by a team of scientists but lets look at the word Fact. A fact is ": a piece of information presented as having objective reality" Well lets see. We know for a FACT that the UI is horrendous, general consensus is that it sucks :D, Mobs have this terribly little glitch where they regen HP to nearly full if u pull them quite often, actually, let me just link you to a fantastic little blog that has pretty much everything i can think of listed in a neat & awesome fashion. http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/diary/entry?e=61205
he has links to the 1st 5 pages of this list. its a good read. (And for some reason this link isnt showing up either o.O)


General consensus does not equal fact. General consensus is a bunch of people agreeing on the same opinion OR share the same opinion. The other thing is, you have no real way of proving that the *majority* hate the game, because the people who enjoy playing the game don't need to come to forums and bag it out, cause they are, you know, playing the game.

The mobs are simply not coded to be pulled over certain distances once engaged in battle, its a simple, standard feature that MMO's have been using for years. There could be many reasons why they are regening HP, still dotted with abilities once combat has been released, still moving back to thier orginal point of engaugement, people chasing it and hitting it while moving back to its orginal point of engaugement. I am sure there is many other examples.[/quote]

And looks like i didn't even have to try as you defeated yourself in your own comment. 1st i bolded the parts i thought you should reread. As of now a General consensus that there is a ton of broken/badly designed aspects and bugs up the wazoo is as close as a fact a gaming community can come up w/ on their own.

Perhaps maybe the majority of "players" don't dislike the game, but server populations are already in free fall, a large % of players are mainly bazaaring away and there are quite a lot of bots. In fact the biggest parties i tend to see are 15man Bot parties all wearing the same gear w/ the same character models. i'd direct you to those threads, as their are quite a few on the front page.

your defending the HP bug? Yeah its a BUG. as in the mobs aren't supposed to reset and regen Hp in the middle of battle.


Edited, Nov 9th 2010 1:45am by Toukai
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#93 Nov 09 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Good
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Toukai wrote:
Vorkosigan wrote:
Toukai wrote:

Wall of text time again :o Apologize if part is hard to read, quotes kinda stopped workin for me.

***A Huge Sh*tload of stuff***


If? IF!?

I have my issues with the game, but I think the MOST I ever posted was 2 paragraphs. Two short paragraphs. That was nuts.

Would it be better if i broke it into multiple posts containing the same info?
didn't really wanna quadruple post in a row.


I think you should slowly back away from the keyboard now. Get a drink, go breathe some fresh air.
I'm taking at least 4 extra-str Tylenols.
Nite.
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#94 Nov 09 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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Toukai wrote:

I do get a kick out of how everyone takes potshots @ WoW and probably have never even played it before. Maybe their excuse is they don't like the art style, but then where does that give you the right to criticize one of the most popular MMOs around. Their doing something right if their makin all that money. Then again when the cocaine buckets start gettin low Blizzard pops out a new expansion which brings the fans back and even more to their franchise. In a business standpoint their doing everything right. I've never played WoW but I can at least respect it for what it is.


Quote:
Most popular? By what standards and whose opinion?

So many people are blinded by the fact that Blizzard is so succesful and they try to use WoW as thier argument as to why they are so succesful when the truth is, that no one likes to admit, Blizzard spent years apon years apon years building thier community from the ground up with titles like Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo before even releaseing World of Warcraft. They already had literally millions upon millions of followers even before they released it. It was guaranteed success from the beginning, any other company in thier same shoes could of pulled it off by using thier community to better themselves. Here is another little tipbit of information, WoW when it hit its peak, sold 12 million copies, nice high figure, right? Lineage 2 sold 14+ million copies, do you see people running around the streets chanting Lineage 2?


I bolded the parts that made me giggle. You know u basically described SE as well. Here i can do it too.
Square Enix spent years *upon years *upon years building their community from the ground up with titles like Final Fantasy, Dragon quest, Chrono Trigger, Kingdom Hearts (to some extent) even before releasing Final Fantasy XIV. They already had literally millions upon millions of followers even before they released it. And yet it somehow failed miserably. heh i added that last line because "Gauranteed success" seems a little inappropriate atm.

Also WoW is so popular because of its sales, current subscribers, the fact that everyone and their momma seems to be making WoW clones (its become a template for mmos because its succeeded so well) and their strong community. People who pick up an MMO don't usually migrate unless in masse w/ people they know. 1 of the strongest ties players have to their mmos is the community. the friends who they play with, and no MMO can make them want to switch unless the players are willing to either leave together or the game is so much more fun that they switch regardless and try to get their friends to play.

Toukai wrote:

No i don't want SE to kneel @ my feet but i would kindly ask them to stop ******* on the playerbase w/ poorly designed titles such as XIV. And take the time to refine their product before they release it, and to show a little humility when the community gets as angry as we did.

And just so you get your facts right, the 60 day free trial ends the 22nd for the CE group, and only little changes have occured since launch. How long do they really think they can make their players wait for the Official release of the game?
Edit: for spelling, its late so i only caught a few obvious ones...


Quote:
]Once again, the game is a little over a month old and you seem to be very impatient and not very pratical when it comes to clear thought or discussion and you constantly derial your own points.

Anways, nice debating with you, pitty you had to rank me down though.


Actually i didn't rank down your 1st post I quoted, but i did rank down this post i'm quoting now because it was even sillier than your last. Shine on you crazy diamond.



Edited, Nov 9th 2010 1:08am by Toukai

Edited, Nov 9th 2010 1:23am by Toukai
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#95 Nov 09 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Default
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Solo does make games anti-social and reason why ffxiv community isn't like ffxi. Sp is gonna be random. No matter the game its random like sp (skill poins) in ffxi was random. Don;t always think of personal gain in am mmo. there is more to life then greed. Group for sake of group. Don;t worry about your personal gain. Thats the prob with mmo now a days and why i wish it was still niche games. too many players too focused on personal gain. They don't wanna have fun for sake of fun. They only have fun if they get something out of it. : /
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#96 Nov 09 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Back to the OP, yes I would like to see the whining stop, but who are we to say that it "must". Before people in these threads try to make arguments they really should try to read-up on and understand how to make a rational and effective argument.

I stop reading most posts that have the terms "the game will fail", "this game sucks", "did SE even look at this game", a majority of these threads are just an objective opinion with no supporting evidence. On the flip side that goes for people defending the game. If you enjoy the game that's great! It is how ever not a foundation for an argument. Who's to say what makes a game fail or thrive, fun or a grind, a 3/10 or 9/10? The individual.

I could carry on, but I feel I may have gotten a point across, but that's my opinion.

This link provides a very good guide to making valid arguments. Others may want to try to read it and understand some of it. http://www.truthtree.com/debates.shtml

Edited, Nov 9th 2010 4:06am by MisterBigglesworth
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#97 Nov 09 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I admit I find the mindset a little weird. You have a strong opinion about the game, you dislike most things about it apparently but would prefer to make your opinion known at top volume with long posts to... those who can't help? It sounds like you'd rather have somebody - or maybe anybody - to argue with, in favor of voting along with the yes-men in the complaint thread.


It doesn't matter if they can help or not. It's a discussion. Let me give you an example you can maybe understand: People talk about politics. They'll talk about politics with people that agree with them, disagree with them, whoever will have a discussion with them. They don't care if the discussion changes anything-- it's entertaining, and an opportunity to learn about other people's views and general knowledge.

If you go to a forum for discussing politics from a democratic perspective, you'll generally find that republicans are welcome, even if they are in complete opposition to the opinions of the user base. Why? Because it's more interesting to discuss things with people who think differently than you.

And some people just enjoy a debate-- I certainly do, and I have no problem keeping a debate civil when others are civil to me. But you're completely mistaken if you think that I hang around just to debate the fanboys and girls. I have always harbored a love of game design-- I love playing with game mechanics and concepts, picking them apart to find out what works and what doesn't. I'm also very interested in the psychological and social sciences, and have studied them for many years-- it's my profession. This forum provides an ideal opportunity for me to not only learn about many things that are relevant to my interests, but also to teach others about things that might be interesting to them (another thing that I enjoy). And if you haven't seen that, then you probably haven't paid that much attention to my posts-- a lot of them have educational merit.

Ultimately, there are plenty of reasons that I post here and will continue to do so. You're probably not actually interested in all the specifics, but the bottom line is that I enjoy it. Some people apparently have fun playing FFXIV-- this is something that I do for fun.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#98Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 09 2010 at 4:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) kachi since you find starting debates fun, I do suggest going to a non fan site form such as well i bet you can find one on social studies. :) debates are meaningless if forced. do far i see a 6 page long essay from several members with nothing but venom. Also using a game site to start meaningless debates for fun does = troll :)
#99 Nov 09 2010 at 5:29 AM Rating: Good
I think there is a serious misjudgment and misunderstanding of the players and their opinions.

No one really has to submit their age to share their views so others always must assume they are a kid or worse just dumb. To just say the whining must stop doesn't really help the current situation either.
People (of all ages) will always share their views whether it seems like whining, complaining or the ridiculous QQing symbol.
If you like the game then so be it and consider yourself lucky or whatever but understand that others upon sharing their dissatisfied opinion do not enjoy some play mechanics are criticized by those who do enjoy it.

How many your favorite games, movies, foods and books do you have the many people dislike (or dislike something about it)? I can name dozens of em right now that people would call crap that i love but i wouldn't call them whiners or cry babies.

I like FFXIV but that doesn't mean i will cease to share my dissatisfying opinions when i see others with similar views.

You like FFXIV then thats great.
You don't like FFXIV then thats fine too.
You like FFXIV but you have some issues to share then that is still perfect because your a human being.

No one is really asking to make anything easy but only less annoying and more enjoyable.

The only problem besides this i see here is keeping complaints in the proper forum/thread because i also understand that those who do enjoy the game don't wish to see a general forum.

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#100 Nov 09 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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kachi since you find starting debates fun, I do suggest going to a non fan site form such as well i bet you can find one on social studies. :) debates are meaningless if forced. do far i see a 6 page long essay from several members with nothing but venom. Also using a game site to start meaningless debates for fun does = troll :)



I'm not forcing anyone into a debate. I'm not even capable of doing that. And I already said that that's not even the reason that I post here. I'm sharing my perspectives, and if you don't like them, you don't have to read them or reply to them.

Sooooo... you totally ignored what I wrote, and then called me a troll? Ok, **** you.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#101 Nov 09 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
kachi since you find starting debates fun, I do suggest going to a non fan site form such as well i bet you can find one on social studies. :) debates are meaningless if forced. do far i see a 6 page long essay from several members with nothing but venom. Also using a game site to start meaningless debates for fun does = troll :)


you call him a troll, but the OP is the one calling everyone who expected a little more of the game "babies who want thier bottle" and the "instant gratification crowd" never mind that most of us came from FFXI so we know what a grind is.

Kachi is just calling people on thier baseless accusations.
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