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#52 Nov 08 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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This crafting system can be absolutely INFURIATING at times. I think it's the fact that you can do everything you know to be right, and still fail because ultimately, some magical number generator thousands of miles away is what determines your success. That's what makes me rage, anyway.

Here are a few classic scenarios that really get me going:

1. The 100% botch.

You're sitting at ~90% progress with about 30 durability left. You try a standard with neutral results, and you're left with ~10 durability and 99% progress. This is where I back up a few feet so that my rage-flail doesn't break anything. Sometimes you get lucky, most times you end with a 100% botch.

2. The "HAHA, JUST KIDDING!" botch.

This is where you get an unstable element (completely unrelated to your craft, naturally, like lightning instability on a fire synth) on your very first action, even if you've just used Fulfillment/Maker's Muse then proceeded to standard on a white orb. BOOM! Instability. Rage usually ensues, but no, we can still save it, right? So with a smart combination of abilities, waits, and syntheses, you ride it out until it stabilizes. YES! Celebrations! Let's continue... BOOM! Instability.

3. The "Fail Train" botch.

This one is probably the most common. You start up a synth successfully, make it to about 50%, then suddenly the game no likey you anymore. You hit Preserve and proceed to FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, and if working on a completed item, FAIL one more time. This could very well lead to a "100%" botch.

Out of the three, I have to say that #3 is the most infuriating if only because it happens on things that are 20 levels below me, even if I have the proper training manuals.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 5:51pm by Rhysen
#53 Nov 08 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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If synthing items stays like it is now, I would rather go back to how it was on FFXI. They seem to be very sadistic over at SE. I mean, say we are in control as to whether or not we fail a synth. They do tell you random things can happen, I get it, that's realistic. Then you fail miserably and an extremely easy synth. And I'm not talking about the ones where you're choosing Bold. Talking about the wait and standard way. Almost makes me mad enough to punch a few holes into my mac. Not to mention, eat my usb keyboard as well. They must love knowing we are going insane while crafting.

I didn't read all of the posts to be honest. But, from what some have said it does make sense when other elements go unstable. Not sure if SE has confirmed any of this or not. All elements are present in crafting. Basically like they are present in all the world. In life in general. Which brings to question if having all stats set in only two elements can actually have a negative effect on crafting.
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#54 Nov 08 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Default
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26 weaver here on Wutai and I cant imagine going further tho I plan to cap it... Im going to have to enroll in some counsuling courses to not take a baseball bat to my monitors sometimes..

Yesterday i made 5 Undyed Canvas in a row and was soo excited that i had finally gotten to the point where i could make canvas then i botched 5 in a row and said to myself "hmm maybe ill wait on canvas.... " after i swore and threw my mouse and bashed fists on desk like a angry dictaror at a rally..
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#55 Nov 08 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, this only happens when I suck and bust. When I'm not sucking I'm quite happy.
#56 Nov 08 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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12 weaver, 14 alchemist and other assorted crafts.

Was trying to get the last 1000 XP or so from 13 Alch to 14 on lindseed and lavender oil. The lindseed turned out 12 +1s (yay for random HQ to clutter my inventory?) I tried making the lavender oil and only succeeded for 1 synth. Cursing and screaming, I used up the last of my minimum to make some quicksilver. I succeeded but I nearly failed a few synths... I was just livid. Quicksilver is something I made EASILY at lvl 5. Why the **** is it being so hard at lvl 13?! Yes, this is all WITH laboratory access which I think is just BS because it certainly doesn't last very long and it's required for just about any synth that makes sense to level up on.

Then there's the HQ dumbass system. We have a freaking QUALITY guage for god's sake. If something is HIGH on that guage, then it should be HIGH QUALITY right? Right? Nope. HQs are just another random occurrence on top of an already RNG favored crafting system. I get HQ bone rings on goldsmith at 50 Dur / 50 Quality, but no HQ on a 30 Dura / 150 Quality one? I can use HQ ingredients to make something and get it up to 350 quality and still not even get an HQ1 result?

Seriously, sometimes I just wish I had the guy who designed this system's address so I could walk over and beat the living crap out of him. How could something like this make the final release?
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#57 Nov 08 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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That random factor that angers so many people and has me cussing at the screen is also something I really like about the game. It does add that annoying bit of "sometimes sh*t happens" realism. Crafting is going to be boring & tedious no matter what, but it would annoy me more if every synth was exactly the same.

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 9:38pm by TwistedOwl
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#58 Nov 08 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
That random factor that angers so many people and has me cussing at the screen is also something I really like about the game. It does add that annoying bit of "sometimes sh*t happens" realism. Crafting is going to be boring & tedious no matter what, but it would annoy me more if every synth was exactly the same.


I think the key word in your statement is "sometimes". Beyond rank 20, it's no longer a case of "sometimes". It frequently becomes a case of "usually". I find it's not bad for skill up synths that you've chosen, but for leves it's horrible. Absolutely ridiculous.
#59 Nov 08 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
I think the key word in your statement is "sometimes". Beyond rank 20, it's no longer a case of "sometimes". It frequently becomes a case of "usually". I find it's not bad for skill up synths that you've chosen, but for leves it's horrible. Absolutely ridiculous.


Only struggles I've had with leves is when I go bold for more quality and it backfires. Though I do get a lot more unstable elements now. Usually I'm able to handle them. I'm sure I'd have those issues trying a r40 leve now @ r35, but I'm probably gonna avoid those for now.

Not saying you're wrong because a lot of people in my LS say the same things, I haven't had any issues failing leves @ or below my rank at all though. It's never a question of succeeding, but whether or not it will give me marks lol. That's one I forgot to mention in my previous post. The random factor on getting marks is definitely worthy of some rage.
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#60 Nov 08 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
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yup, it seems like I have 'good craft days' and 'bad craft days'. On those bad days a level 1 synth won't even make its way to 50% before a string of fails.
#61 Nov 08 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I think the key word in your statement is "sometimes". Beyond rank 20, it's no longer a case of "sometimes". It frequently becomes a case of "usually". I find it's not bad for skill up synths that you've chosen, but for leves it's horrible. Absolutely ridiculous.


Only struggles I've had with leves is when I go bold for more quality and it backfires. Though I do get a lot more unstable elements now. Usually I'm able to handle them. I'm sure I'd have those issues trying a r40 leve now @ r35, but I'm probably gonna avoid those for now.

Not saying you're wrong because a lot of people in my LS say the same things, I haven't had any issues failing leves @ or below my rank at all though. It's never a question of succeeding, but whether or not it will give me marks lol. That's one I forgot to mention in my previous post. The random factor on getting marks is definitely worthy of some rage.


I'm not sure how many cross-craft synthesis leves you get but right now for armorer about half the ones I've been getting recommend a subcraft. I just found another one in Ul'dah for armorer. Rank 30 (oh glee) for Iron Hoplons. "Requires" at least 15 carpenter subcraft. I succeeded 4 out of 6 attempts despite failed Standard attempts that were producing 24-27 durability loss. (One on my final (failed) attempt for the leve I had one standard failure that cost me 31 durability). And when your neutral standard attempts are producing 17 progress and 16 durability loss, the durability just goes down awfully **** fast. And the tragedy is that I'm to the point now where I don't even care that I successfully completed the leve. The process was miserable. It wasn't fun. One leve out of four in 72 hours complete.

Imagine trying to sell that to a true casual player who takes up crafting early on and thinks it's the bee's knees and then they hit that wall. My understanding is that levequests were supposed to be that fun thing you did for some good rewards and that's why they were restricted. So SE says they're adjusting it. All I can do now is wait and see.
#62 Nov 08 2010 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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I guess the way I see it is that this is clearly something that's frustrating a lot of people, but at the same time is inevitable if they continue to craft. Generally that's what is known in psychology as "a bad thing."

The two most viable solutions are:

1) Stop crafting and find something else you enjoy that won't cause you inevitable rage.
2) Accept that you'll fail sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it, so there's no point in letting it bother you.

Generally I try to avoid things that require too much of the second option... having to rationalize away your frustrations during leisure isn't particularly fun. But if you're committed to your goal in spite of the crap you have to put up to do so, then it's the only viable option.

Quote:
That random factor that angers so many people and has me cussing at the screen is also something I really like about the game. It does add that annoying bit of "sometimes sh*t happens" realism.


Leisure is normally where people want to get away from that-- to establish control over their life. Autonomy is the defining quality of recreation. And in most recreation, when ********** happens," it's because of something -you- did.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63 Nov 08 2010 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I leveled a number of crafts GS, WW, LW, Alchem and Weaver. Lowest Lv10 highest Lv17.

I came to the conclusion that crafting is not based on stats and skill, but its a scripted event.

Its like whenever you start a syn, theres a programing that runs behind that auto generate a list of events.

So whatever you did, is base on the script
Example
The script
Success, Fail, Fail, Success, Fail, Success, Fail, Fail, Fail, Success.

What you did
Standard, Standard, Preserve, Standard, Standard, wait, bold, Standard, wait, Standard.

Seriously thats the only reason I can find when I can do standard on a chaotic orb with 5 success in a row and HQ. Then Fail till botch on the next Distill water syn.



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#64 Nov 08 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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That would certainly fit with my theory that they simply turned crafting into a standard JRPG battle.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Nov 08 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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There is a crack in the outer wooden shell of my desk forming where I've smashed it repeatedly, now exposing the particle board underneath. It was barely damaged back when I played WoW, and it has grown in size exponentially since FFXIV beta, and the desk is beginning to slouch in that spot. But even as frustrating as crafting has been, nothing can compare to provokes and taunts failing to fire off before the revealed imps fly behind you and insta-gib your healer. Thanks, UI lag. Thanks, terrible targetting system. 99% of my game time I spend crafting, and that 1% time on the battlefield is far more stressful. When both battle and crafting are going poorly, I have a hard time finding motivation to press onward. So far I've held it together. So far. Barely.
#66 Nov 08 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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blackjacktwentyone wrote:
There is a crack in the outer wooden shell of my desk forming where I've smashed it repeatedly, now exposing the particle board underneath. It was barely damaged back when I played WoW, and it has grown in size exponentially since FFXIV beta, and the desk is beginning to slouch in that spot. But even as frustrating as crafting has been, nothing can compare to provokes and taunts failing to fire off before the revealed imps fly behind you and insta-gib your healer. Thanks, UI lag. Thanks, terrible targetting system. 99% of my game time I spend crafting, and that 1% time on the battlefield is far more stressful. When both battle and crafting are going poorly, I have a hard time finding motivation to press onward. So far I've held it together. So far. Barely.


Well, I held myself together by just chopping tress and mining ores for my LSmates.

If not for the above I would have gone within like 3 weeks?

Now, I stop mining because They are high enough and rich enough to buy stuff, and stopped chopping trees because our WW have quit the game, I took up my WAR classes again. Only to hit the random SP generator.

Maybe I should go back to mining and chopping trees and NPC the stuff, to give me a sort of self worth. :(
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#67 Nov 09 2010 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:

I'm not sure how many cross-craft synthesis leves you get but right now for armorer about half the ones I've been getting recommend a subcraft. I just found another one in Ul'dah for armorer. Rank 30 (oh glee) for Iron Hoplons. "Requires" at least 15 carpenter subcraft. I succeeded 4 out of 6 attempts despite failed Standard attempts that were producing 24-27 durability loss. (One on my final (failed) attempt for the leve I had one standard failure that cost me 31 durability). And when your neutral standard attempts are producing 17 progress and 16 durability loss, the durability just goes down awfully **** fast. And the tragedy is that I'm to the point now where I don't even care that I successfully completed the leve. The process was miserable. It wasn't fun. One leve out of four in 72 hours complete.

Imagine trying to sell that to a true casual player who takes up crafting early on and thinks it's the bee's knees and then they hit that wall. My understanding is that levequests were supposed to be that fun thing you did for some good rewards and that's why they were restricted. So SE says they're adjusting it. All I can do now is wait and see.


A lot of the good Weaver synths require LW and I still get that "LW too low" message sometimes. Canvas Hat comes to mind currently. My LW is only 18 and I need 25(according to some recipe lists). I have found that I can still complete those synths without the suggested subcraft rank if I have enough Weaver ranks ABOVE the recipe. You can somewhat counter the subcraft need that way. Though you definitely notice the difference when you get the subcraft up to par for it.

It seems Armorcraft & Blacksmith are two of the more involved crafting classes when it comes to subcrafts. Got one in my LS doing both and he's forever talking about another craft he needs to level up. You chose a more difficult craft to master.


Quote:
I guess the way I see it is that this is clearly something that's frustrating a lot of people, but at the same time is inevitable if they continue to craft. Generally that's what is known in psychology as "a bad thing."

The two most viable solutions are:

1) Stop crafting and find something else you enjoy that won't cause you inevitable rage.
2) Accept that you'll fail sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it, so there's no point in letting it bother you.

Generally I try to avoid things that require too much of the second option... having to rationalize away your frustrations during leisure isn't particularly fun. But if you're committed to your goal in spite of the crap you have to put up to do so, then it's the only viable option.

Quote:
That random factor that angers so many people and has me cussing at the screen is also something I really like about the game. It does add that annoying bit of "sometimes sh*t happens" realism.


Leisure is normally where people want to get away from that-- to establish control over their life. Autonomy is the defining quality of recreation. And in most recreation, when "sh*t happens," it's because of something -you- did.


Stacked this quote in here too because it was a good post and I like what you bring up there. In the first month+ since the game came out we had a number of threads here talking about the crafting system being broken. A lot of it included rage over the market wards vs. AH stuff and not being able to find mats, but also about the system itself. People calling it too complicated or difficult and were met with opposition similar to what you describe. "It's not broken, maybe crafting isn't for you." I was one of the people saying that, along with things like "How easy do you want them to make it for you??", etc.(Some other not-so-friendly words) You were with me on that as well Aurelius. Now we're seeing the same debates strike up again at higher levels.

I don't think the system is broken at all.(Painful UI aside) Though it seems like now we're back to the "We don't want it too easy, but not too difficult either" talk & maybe SE skewed the balance too much towards the too difficult end for some? And apparently that's a hard balance to find that makes everyone happy.

Or the debate on whether crafting should be a full-on class.
Quote:
That would certainly fit with my theory that they simply turned crafting into a standard JRPG battle.

People loved the idea of crafting being a full class and the more-involved system in the early ranks, now it's like "Woah, wait a minute!" Certain crafts seem just like a battle sometimes. The game throws you a curveball and you work your way around it or fail. Spamming standard(spamming regular attack) may not cut it.

I've seen the parallels to fighting when I hear some of my LSmates say things like "Man, this wolf was on roids" while they were SPing on wolves and ran into one that nearly killed them or just wouldn't die. I think some still view crafting as a 'side task' that shouldn't be overly complicated or difficult.

I like that the random factor doesn't let me assume that "I'm rank A so I should never have any trouble doing situation B ever again." Apparently a lot of people don't...
I totally get that people want their crafting to be simpler & straightforward like that. Though it gets boring to me if I can find the perfect routine of actions and repeat them over & over for success. Perhaps I'm truly ****** like the SE developers = P

Edit-
Wow, that may be my longest post ever, sorry! To sum all that crap up, I cuss & rage while crafting to, but don't jump to the "It's broken" talk over it. And I like it better than it being the same exact process each time.



Edited, Nov 9th 2010 3:22am by TwistedOwl
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#68 Nov 09 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
[Stacked this quote in here too because it was a good post and I like what you bring up there. In the first month+ since the game came out we had a number of threads here talking about the crafting system being broken. A lot of it included rage over the market wards vs. AH stuff and not being able to find mats, but also about the system itself. People calling it too complicated or difficult and were met with opposition similar to what you describe. "It's not broken, maybe crafting isn't for you." I was one of the people saying that, along with things like "How easy do you want them to make it for you??", etc.(Some other not-so-friendly words) You were with me on that as well Aurelius. Now we're seeing the same debates strike up again at higher levels.

I don't think the system is broken at all.(Painful UI aside) Though it seems like now we're back to the "We don't want it too easy, but not too difficult either" talk & maybe SE skewed the balance too much towards the too difficult end for some? And apparently that's a hard balance to find that makes everyone happy.


There's very little that's "easy" or "difficult" about playing a game that boils down to a coin toss. On one hand, we can pull the crafting systems apart and try to assess time of day and weather and trends and orb influences and food and gear and tools and all that, but when it's all said and done it's still a dice roll with every action that determines success or failure. And when you apply everything you know and everything you think you know and still fail repeatedly, it's broken. There's no point wasting time with a 2 minute mini-game for every synth if you're still at the mercy of the RNG when it comes to success or failure. SE has added altogether too many barriers to success and made the options available to you to work through those barriers altogether too onerous to obtain.

SE seems to have this penchant for designing systems that are tuned in such a way that in one out of a thousand scenarios you'll say to yourself, "Wow! That really worked out well!" and the rest of the time you'll be saying to yourself, "Meh..." or "That's bloody stupid." Take for example the destabilized element bit. SE mentioned in one of their addresses that destabilized elements could create some unique benefits down the line. About the only ones I've seen so far that might have a chance to do that are lightning and ice elements where, if you're extremely lucky, the cut to progress gains could allow for more actions taken and therefore higher finished quality. And assuming the increased number of actions required doesn't simply lead to failure through attrition when durability lost outstrips progress gained, you're still up against the HQ coin toss. So what's the point? Why build all of these barriers when the final outcome still relies so heavily on luck?

I'd rather have a more complex system with more real difficulty and depth if it meant that the random element was removed. I don't mind difficult. Random is just dumb.
#69 Nov 09 2010 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I tend to agree, but that's why it's like a JRPG battle. You have the monster who has scripted behaviors, and you have the player who has a chance for their attacks to miss. They're random to some degree.

And while making crafting even remotely like a battle represents a step up for the generic crafting in other games, it's still not especially deep. It's less deep than a JRPG, and how long can you really enjoy the gameplay of a JRPG? I just don't see the longevity in the crafting system that I would expect to see of a class that's supposed to be on equal footing with the combat aspect of the game. Not at all.

I'll also echo that the difficulty doesn't require actual skill, and that's almost never a good thing. It's fine when you're working with randomness and statistics, but only when you have choices that can impact the level of your success/failure. When you're doomed as soon as the game starts regardless of your decision, skill doesn't enter into it. Challenge doesn't enter into it. You may as well play a slot machine.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#70 Nov 09 2010 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
There's very little that's "easy" or "difficult" about playing a game that boils down to a coin toss. On one hand, we can pull the crafting systems apart and try to assess time of day and weather and trends and orb influences and food and gear and tools and all that, but when it's all said and done it's still a dice roll with every action that determines success or failure. And when you apply everything you know and everything you think you know and still fail repeatedly, it's broken. There's no point wasting time with a 2 minute mini-game for every synth if you're still at the mercy of the RNG when it comes to success or failure. SE has added altogether too many barriers to success and made the options available to you to work through those barriers altogether too onerous to obtain.

SE seems to have this penchant for designing systems that are tuned in such a way that in one out of a thousand scenarios you'll say to yourself, "Wow! That really worked out well!" and the rest of the time you'll be saying to yourself, "Meh..." or "That's bloody stupid." Take for example the destabilized element bit. SE mentioned in one of their addresses that destabilized elements could create some unique benefits down the line. About the only ones I've seen so far that might have a chance to do that are lightning and ice elements where, if you're extremely lucky, the cut to progress gains could allow for more actions taken and therefore higher finished quality. And assuming the increased number of actions required doesn't simply lead to failure through attrition when durability lost outstrips progress gained, you're still up against the HQ coin toss. So what's the point? Why build all of these barriers when the final outcome still relies so heavily on luck?

I'd rather have a more complex system with more real difficulty and depth if it meant that the random element was removed. I don't mind difficult. Random is just dumb.


I see your point. I'm not one for knowing about programming & such so I could be way off here, but with something like crafting isn't the random factor the only thing keeping it any kind of difficult and frustrating? I mean, wouldn't throwing that out lead to someone posting step-by-step "Surefire way to finish SynthA with HQ+3"? Or maybe one routine that's 99% effective for nearly all synths? Or is that what most people would rather have? Sounds less fun & interesting to me, but I suppose my idea of fun & interesting is a bit twisted = P

So I'm not sure where they could go with the system to satisfy that issue. And maybe there is more to learn about the unstables & weather, moonphase, etc. that'll make some of it easier or at least perhaps a less random process.

I'm definitely not trying to use the "FFXIV is more difficult, not easy-mode" card here. I just don't see a simple solution to keep it difficult & not too extremely easy.

Edited, Nov 9th 2010 4:46am by TwistedOwl
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#71 Nov 09 2010 at 3:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I see your point. I'm not one for knowing about programming & such so I could be way off here, but with something like crafting isn't the random factor the only thing keeping it any kind of difficult and frustrating? I mean, wouldn't throwing that out lead to someone posting step-by-step "Surefire way to finish SynthA with HQ+3"? Or maybe one routine that's 99% effective for nearly all synths? Or is that what most people would rather have? Sounds less fun & interesting to me, but I suppose my idea of fun & interesting is a bit twisted = P


This is why I keep drawing the analogy to a JRPG battle. JRPG battles are random too, but assuming you're an appropriate level, you won't lose depending on the decisions you make. The problem is not that it's randomized and possible to lose, but that it's tuned so that the level 1 bunny still has a chance to kill the level 50 paladin if he gets lucky. Statistically, the paladin shouldn't miss enough and the bunny shouldn't get enough critical hits that it's even possible for the bunny to win unless the paladin makes stupid decisions... but in this case the design ensures that the bunny still wins sometimes!

When you get down to it, the crafting just isn't really that deep. When there are clear-cut paths to victory, that means the game isn't challenging enough. I often use chess as an example. Chess is a complex game despite its simplicity. Unless you're ridiculously gifted, you can't just look at a board and know what the "right" decision is. You can teach someone all the rules to chess in five minutes, easily, but the skills to win are infinitely harder to come by. Now, compare that to a game that when you know all the rules, you already know how to win. And that's pretty much what we have here.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#72 Nov 09 2010 at 4:28 AM Rating: Good
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So for this particular discussion. Are we saying "Crafting is broken" to mean SE went overboard with the random factor and less on the strategy part? Like it tried to be a unique, strategic system but ended up being watered down and too **** frustrating? If so, I can get behind that complaint. Sorry if that's what you and Aurelius were trying to say all along and I just didn't get it = P

In that case maybe there is more we can learn to help that and also changes they can make. Perhaps that'll come into play more with future additions and r50+ crafting when the cap's raised?

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#73 Nov 09 2010 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Hahaha! Your post made me laugh. It's true, I HATE botching low level synths. In fact, I check my gear completely, go to the proper facilities and buff like crazy. But it still happens sometimes. :3 It's just trying to keep us humble I guess.
#74 Nov 09 2010 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So for this particular discussion. Are we saying "Crafting is broken" to mean SE went overboard with the random factor and less on the strategy part? Like it tried to be a unique, strategic system but ended up being watered down and too **** frustrating? If so, I can get behind that complaint. Sorry if that's what you and Aurelius were trying to say all along and I just didn't get it = P

In that case maybe there is more we can learn to help that and also changes they can make. Perhaps that'll come into play more with future additions and r50+ crafting when the cap's raised?


More or less, at least speaking for myself. The randomness would be fine if there were more strategy to it, or alternatively, you could reduce the randomness and absolve the frustration. I should also clarify that it's not the "amount" of randomness, but the values in that randomness (just a technical point for anyone who might read into it).

However, simply reducing the randomness doesn't make things more challenging. Basically what will happen is that you'll still essentially -know- the right things to do, but rather than the current case where you can do everything right and still "lose," most likely you'll only lose if you actually do something wrong. Which is generally how a challenge should be, but you have to ask yourself, that being the case, how often are you going to lose? And if the answer is "almost never" then the game isn't challenging enough for you (unless perhaps you just want to relax and don't want a real challenge).

In any leisure activity, there's an optimal level of challenge for fun... too easy, no fun, and too hard, no fun. But it differs based on the activity, the person, and even the mood of the person. I'm just wagering a guess that crafting is too simple for most adults.

But I certainly hope they expand on the system in later levels, if not the earlier levels too.
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#75 Nov 09 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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IMHO, using standard synth should be something that I can rely on for fairly consistent progress. If I just want to finish a synth and I don't really care about getting a HQ result, standard synth should be the way to go and so long as I am not crafting something 5 or more levels above me, I should be able to have some reasonable expectations of not failing 5-6 times in a row and either failing or barely sneaking by the mark.

Likewise, if I am crafting something 5 or more levels LOWER than my level, I should expect to be able to finish the synth with little frustration so long as I am not trying to do anything fancy.

Now... it's when I am trying to go outside the box and use things like Bold Synth to raise Quality to go for a HQ where I should expect to be taking more risks for either a better result or a hunk of junk from failure. Right now, I feel like the crafting system is like taking a test. Only instead of being able to mark the correct answer, you have to roll a 6 sided die and mark the answer according to the roll you're given. It just doesn't seem to have any sort of consistency to it at all which makes learning how to synth properly next to impossible because you can't reasonably predict the results. If I didn't fail just as often if not MORE often on white synth balls-- especially right after using Preserve than I do on yellow or red balls, I wouldn't be so irritated if I punched Standard Synth on a red ball and failed instead of waited and tried for a better color. If I didn't SUCCEED a standard synth and lose almost as much durability as I gained in progress, it would also be a lot less frustrating.
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#76 Nov 09 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
While I like the crafting process, I can get on board with losing the randomness of it. Like how I can easily do a synth for 2 weeks then botch 6 in row because the random number generator is having a bad day.

Quote:

It seems Armorcraft & Blacksmith are two of the more involved crafting classes when it comes to subcrafts. Got one in my LS doing both and he's forever talking about another craft he needs to level up. You chose a more difficult craft to master.


This made me lol. He is an angry little craft monkey.
#77 Nov 09 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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My major issue is when trying to blow through mats that there's no "Super Rapid Synth". If it's a level one synth and I'm 15, I should just be able to take a couple cycles, not 4 at the minimum, to get it. I often blow through old mats just to clear up inventory and it's a drag having to go through a full synthesis routine just to blow through bone chips and copper ore.
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#78 Nov 09 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Krycis wrote:
My major issue is when trying to blow through mats that there's no "Super Rapid Synth". If it's a level one synth and I'm 15, I should just be able to take a couple cycles, not 4 at the minimum, to get it. I often blow through old mats just to clear up inventory and it's a drag having to go through a full synthesis routine just to blow through bone chips and copper ore.


Actually there is. It's called Hasty Hand and is ONLY available on the beginning step of the synth at 0% progress. It's just a little risky there... ^_^


Edit: It's also a rank 15 ability.

Edited, Nov 9th 2010 1:49pm by Ravashack
#79 Nov 09 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Thumbs up on this entire thread. I was wondering if it was just me. Failing 4 or more times when it's solid white and at or below my level, with gear and support... it had me going crazy. Especially the ones below me.

And as if the above wasn't bad enough, the game also enjoys toying with you on occasion in making you think you're in the midst of another notorious botch synth. More than a few times I'll start out with three fails in a row, cutting durability to near 50% or less, only to have several successes in a row and just squeak in a successful synth. The relief is palpable but the curses have already been uttered.

I think it would be a bit less frustrating if it made any sense whatsoever when I happens. How does a person successfully cruise through 8 synths and on the 9th fail epically... and then go on to smoothly do 8 more? It's mind-boggling! XD
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#80 Nov 09 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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I get annoyed when I craft sometimes because it seems like my character only crafts when he feels like it haha. One time I succeeded a craft that was 4 levels above when I was supposed to be able to do it, but then I tried something that was about 8 levels lower and I failed multiple times. I hate when that happened!

First I was feeling confident that I completed a higher than my level craft, then frustrated when I fail easy ones. I've come to the conclusion my character only feels like crafting sometimes and when I fail an easy one, it's time to level Thaumaturge or Lancer.
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#81 Nov 09 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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When I do my leves I work it into a song.

botch botch botch, cokshietfuk, cokshietfuk, botch botch cokshietfuk, botch botch.

Edited, Nov 9th 2010 3:24pm by LyleVertigo
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#82 Nov 09 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
This is how my first attempt on my r25 leve requiring "Oak Lumber" a few minuets ago: 

Start off with the white orb, no options for preserve, tender touch, or makers muse. Great. I decide to go with standard to be on the safe side, and FAIL. Next up is a red orb, but also get the preserve option. Cool I got this now. Nope FAIL, FAIL, and FAIL. At this point my hands are throbbing  from trying to twist my controller apart. Now that preserve fades I'm ******* Now that the lag catches up... wow I got a bonus white orb.  Can you guess what happens next? If you guessed success your absolutely wong.  At this point I say F it, I have 42 durability, and 28 quality. I pick tender touch and spam rapid, 1 red and 2 flashing orbs later and I botch the synth at 98%. 

At this point I had to walk away. I went to the store and get me some combos, and a iced tea. When I returned I finished the remaining 5 attempts with out fail, most over 90 quality. WTF I had to laugh about it. The point of my rage is If after a horrible fail, you go out and grab some combos and an iced tea you'll be golden for sure. 

But for real when that happens, or I get a series of stupid fails I want to take a dump on SE's rice.
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#83 Nov 09 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Pikko wrote:
So I don't know if it's just me, but despite the fact that I really like the crafting system, there are times where I just start cussing at my monitor and pounding my desk in a fury because I fail 5 standards in a row. Once the craft has busted, I feel like I'm back to normal, but while that **** ball of light is pulsating and changing color, I have steam coming out of my ears and blood vessels are ready to pop.

I'm not complaining about the fact that the game does this, just mad about it happening. Apparently my brother is the same way, as he told me he likes crafting but it's so **** stressful. Maybe it just runs in the family?


Ditto and ditto. Apparently SE thinks it's funny to make their game as random as possible so their users can be frustrated.
#84 Nov 09 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I had a good start with a craft yesterday.
I had over 70% progress and still have 70+ durability left.
70+ durability and only 20+ progress left, there is no way I could fail that craft right?
Furthermore I had Fulfillment up.

BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
"You botched the synthesis."

...
**** you.
#85 Nov 10 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The point of my rage is If after a horrible fail, you go out and grab some combos and an iced tea you'll be golden for sure.


Nacho Cheese Pretzel Combos? Those are hard to find in my area. Getting to the store and only seeing that cracker & pizza crap would cause more rage. You give me combos that aren't Nacho Cheese Pretzel and I feel disrespected...
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#86 Nov 10 2010 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Thervius wrote:
I had a good start with a craft yesterday.
I had over 70% progress and still have 70+ durability left.
70+ durability and only 20+ progress left, there is no way I could fail that craft right?
Furthermore I had Fulfillment up.

BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
"You botched the synthesis."

...
@#%^ you.


At least after second boom.. hit Wait. Jeez. Interrupt the fail process - it works.
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#87 Nov 10 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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RisonSrithuram wrote:
Thervius wrote:
I had a good start with a craft yesterday.
I had over 70% progress and still have 70+ durability left.
70+ durability and only 20+ progress left, there is no way I could fail that craft right?
Furthermore I had Fulfillment up.

BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
BOOM.
"You botched the synthesis."

...
@#%^ you.


At least after second boom.. hit Wait. Jeez. Interrupt the fail process - it works.


Trust me, I did use Wait in between.
#88 Nov 10 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
My new favorite is:

98% complete...
21 durability left...
Maker's Muse up...
Standard Synthesis fails!
10% progress...
Durability decreases by 22...
You botch the synthesis!

Smiley: mad

After that I had to switch to Pug and go punch wild ewes in the face because they are cute and their pain pleased me.

Edited, Nov 10th 2010 9:25am by SkinwalkerAsura
#89 Nov 10 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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I was crafting a bit again last night and ran into this again. You know what would help a little (and by a little I mean not at all but it's something) would be if I could /rage while crafting. You know? Just to sort of vent as you see the inevitable botch coming? I was sitting there, locked in my "craft stance" and unable to to anything in game to reflect my RL rage!

Something like "Player Name screams in frustration over his synthesis" and the character's arms would fly out ala Maker's Muse only with clenched fists, the head would lean back and the face would do a pained screaming sort of animation. hahaha... well, it's something.
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#90 Nov 10 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
mcbizzle wrote:
I was crafting a bit again last night and ran into this again. You know what would help a little (and by a little I mean not at all but it's something) would be if I could /rage while crafting. You know? Just to sort of vent as you see the inevitable botch coming? I was sitting there, locked in my "craft stance" and unable to to anything in game to reflect my RL rage!

Something like "Player Name screams in frustration over his synthesis" and the character's arms would fly out ala Maker's Muse only with clenched fists, the head would lean back and the face would do a pained screaming sort of animation. hahaha... well, it's something.


Agreed. Nothing like having to go through the whole song and dance when you're at 25% completion with 17 dura left.
#91 Nov 10 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Default
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TauuOfSiren wrote:
I was beginning to wonder if I have anger management issues I didn't know about. As a level 12 leatherworker I was making Squirrel Fur Shoulder Guards for the Cotton Robes I sell. I was making them fairly consistently but was failing a bit more than I was comfortable with. So I spent a few hours leveling leatherworker to 15. I got it there and was thinking that making the guards will be easy now. I proceeded to botch three in a row and I was freaking out. Hours of work and 100 wind shards spent for this?

Crazy.


please tell me you aren't seriously blaming this on hidden anger management issues, instead of a flawed gameplay system.


SE: convincing the playerbase that its their fault for 8 years and counting.
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#92 Nov 10 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Are you still unable to chat during synthesis?
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#93 Nov 10 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Are you still unable to chat during synthesis?



Oh you can chat, but keep it short and sweet. Otherwise you'll either miss an action or you'll have your chat window wiped clean due to a menu or interface load. That particular thing is SO frustrating that I generally just craft in silence or will not start the next synth at all if I need to respond to someone or ask someone something.
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#94 Nov 10 2010 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, that's just horribly broken. Unbelievable, really, but you can tell that they didn't put much thought in to how players would actually, you know, play the game. It's difficult to chat during battle too without either an autoattack or attack queuing feature. This is something that any two people who picked up a controller and said, "Let's start a party!" should have realized immediately. I'm frankly embarrassed for SE that they made an MMO without consideration for how people would chat and play the game at the same time.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#95 Nov 10 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Easily explained.
When they tested party play, developers were sitting next to each other. -.^/
#96 Nov 10 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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I'm of the camp that thinks FFXI and FFXIV crafting systems are really just an elaborate experiment in parapsychology testing for latent psychic influence of gamers on random number generators. ^_^

Would explain all those random streaks!
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#97 Nov 11 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So I don't know if it's just me, but despite the fact that I really like the crafting system, there are times where I just start cussing at my monitor and pounding my desk in a fury because I fail 5 standards in a row. Once the craft has busted, I feel like I'm back to normal, but while that **** ball of light is pulsating and changing color, I have steam coming out of my ears and blood vessels are ready to pop.


I know what you're talking about here, but I've run into a few times where I've failed the first 4 or so standards, and I end up at 37% done with 45 durability, and think to myself, well that's a failed synth, but then go ahead to complete the synth with a strangely decent durability left
#98 Nov 11 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Oinari wrote:
Quote:
So I don't know if it's just me, but despite the fact that I really like the crafting system, there are times where I just start cussing at my monitor and pounding my desk in a fury because I fail 5 standards in a row. Once the craft has busted, I feel like I'm back to normal, but while that **** ball of light is pulsating and changing color, I have steam coming out of my ears and blood vessels are ready to pop.


I know what you're talking about here, but I've run into a few times where I've failed the first 4 or so standards, and I end up at 37% done with 45 durability, and think to myself, well that's a failed synth, but then go ahead to complete the synth with a strangely decent durability left


I've had several of those as well. I hate to say it, but I don't find those to be all that entertaining. That's a bit of jaded cynicism on my part that starts to get irritated after about the third consecutive failed action.

I finally figured out what I'd like to see happen to the crafting system. I'd like to see them change the focus from success to quality and adjust the rewards accordingly. ****, for at-rank synthesis, hitting even 50 quality is already a fairly significant accomplishment. Instead of confronting players with a wall of failures, make basic success for at or below rank synthesis the norm, with failures extremely rare. Then reduce the skill points earned/synth and have them scale better with quality. So if you understand the system and make use of your abilities appropriately, you can still earn roughly on par with what you'd earn now in terms of SP, but if you're just spamming Standard regardless of orb state you'll finish with crap quality that will earn you very little SP and lesser rewards for local leves.

I don't want to be earning fantastic rewards for mediocre performance, but I also want to enjoy my time in game and I think any MMO system has to start with a basis in fun for the extreme casual players who maybe aren't skilled gamers but still like the genre, and then ramp up the rewards for more skilled and/or dedicated players. Provide clear incentives for skill and understanding without irritating the **** out of your players. Sounds like a pretty good approach to me.
#99 Nov 11 2010 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
Disclaimer: This is somewhat of a long read.

I can relate to the frustration Pikko, I'm currently 16 Weaver and trying to reach 17. Past couple days I've been really annoyed with crafting so much I stopped playing. For example, Monday since I had the materials, I decided I'd try making myself some higher quality undergarments. On the first attempt I made a +1 undershirt. Feeling pretty good about it I gathered up a bunch of stuff, hit the guild and got a boost. Next thing I know I'm failing hempen cloth left and right and out of 10-12 attempts only made 2 NQ undergarments, the rest either blew up or failed when trying to use Touch Up. I got so frustrated I shut down the game w/o logging out, powered down my PC, and walked away.

Roughly 48 hours later I finally decided to log back in tonite a little dismayed feeling about the nights two days prior. Perhaps it was a fluke, dunno... So, I gathered up my cotton yarn and figured I'd try ranking up to 17 now. I pick up a few local leves, hit the Repair NPC and go to work after getting a boost. Item is cotton cloth. Days prior to this I was breezing through this stuff like it was nothing. A failed synth or two once in awhile, but I'm making this stuff like it was second nature. So... couldn't be hard, right? Wrong. Out of 5 attempts I only managed to succeed 3 times and the last two were by sheer luck I'd almost wager. Taking note that all prior attempts I got guild support from the actual guild I packed up and headed to the Weaver's Guild. Got support, popped open a bottle of distilled water (As I was using before.) and started crafting the cotton yarn on hand into cloth.

A complete repeat of two nights prior. Just about every synth I'm blowing up, having elements become unstable, or botching the final synth at the end for an utter failure. I somehow randomly manage to make a +1 version of a cotton cloth despite only having 30-50 quality and almost botching every attempt and maybe 1-2 NQ ones. After having enough I just clicked the big red X in the corner of my window and shut the game down. It's really disappointing, I've grown tired of playing my Conjurer so much as of late I wanted to actually rank up my crafting classes yet things like this just discourage me from even trying. I've got sufficient equipment for what I'm doing too so I'm not sure why my progress is bombing so badly. If I recall, I was R16 Weaver with 38 Craft, 30 M.Craft and 26 or 28 Control. I had basic guild support too, and no gear is currently broken from what I could see either (No yellow repair icon.) so it's not like that was the problem.

Anyway, I'll probably log back in after a little while just to check my Faction Leves but after that I don't know if I'll log off or keep playing. Right now I'm so frustrated with crafting that I don't even really want to play.
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#100 Nov 11 2010 at 6:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Found a new source of rage today. This isn't about the crafting system, but I mentioned in a previous post that the random guild marks is **** frustrating. I just finished the r36 weaver quest for 3600 marks. Wouldn't ya know it though, that 3600 marks puts my current total at exactly 4,999! Guess I'm at the mercy of local leves to get that next training book. Again, that's not a fault in the actual crafting process system, but wow. Feels like I should've expected something like this to happen. /equip "Willow Wand" time to go out and set some marmots on fire in a fit of rage! = P

Edited, Nov 11th 2010 7:36am by TwistedOwl
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#101 Nov 11 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I just hit a new low for over-rank botches. Dodoskin Vamps...YG lists them as rank 20, which sounds about right for optimum level (as opposed to minimum) based on how much SP/XP I'm getting from them at rank 22. I've been fighting with them all morning. Full moon or some ****. Just had one with first action failure causing a destabilized ice element and even though I pulled out all the stops I still failed with 27 progress.

FML
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