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Threat (enmity) and crafting theoryFollow

#1 Nov 08 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
11 posts
Hey everyone. I've been reading posts on the forums about how random crafting results and threat(enmity) are. I would have to agree that it's pretty ridiculous that I could wait for the tank to hit the mob until 75% health and then pull threat on my first shot. I was also getting really frustrated on the random crafting results. Sometimes I would get awesome success rates and sometimes I would get terrible success rates on the same craft. So I thought I would try to explain why this is happening. Of course my explanations can be wrong, and someone may have already posted something similar (sorry if someone did... I don't read the forums enough.)And of course everything could just be bugged. Anyways onto the explanations.

THREAT

I was looking through gladiator skills to see if there was anything good besides still precision for archers. I came across a skill called Sentinel(36 gladiator skill). This skill slows down the "loss" of enmity. This got me thinking... what if the threat bar isn't a bar that starts empty and fills up during the fight? I'm thinking that the threat bar may be a bar that starts full when the threat table is first established, and it goes down over time if you don't do anything. In other words, the tank has to constantly build threat faster than the rate it goes down to keep threat. This would explain why people are pulling threat from one hit after waiting for the tank to build aggro. There is no threat table with only one person(the tank) hitting the mob. There has to be at least 2 people for the threat table to start. So waiting for the tank to build aggro is doing nothing, and since the threat bar starts "full" when the threat table is first established, the dps or healer pulls the threat at the beginning. This system may sound stupid but it would give another important reason to having a puller. If you have an archer puller, the archer can pull the mob and then the tank can provoke to start the threat table.
In this system, I'm thinking provoke fills the threat bar to full and keeps it full for the duration of the provoke, which would be why it stays on the tank. The bar starts going down after provoke wears off. I'm not sure if people have noticed... but it's pretty useless for a tank to pull with provoke because the threat goes wild after the provoke wears off. This is because there is no threat table yet, and once the threat table is established, everyone's threat bar is full just like the tank's.
So why do thaumaturge pull so much threat? I'm thinking it's because of DoTs and HoTs. The rate DoTs and HoTs build threat may be higher than the rate enmity goes down.
This is all just a theory, and I haven't tested it enough to back it up with proof. I'm just going by my experience in groups and things people have said in the forums. Now for the crafting theory.

CRAFTING

I loved crafting at the beginning of the game. I was getting good success rates, and I didn't understand why people were complaining about random results. I guess I was just getting really lucky. Recently I've been getting these random results, and I find it to be very frustrating. The only explanation is that there are multiple factors that change the outcome of your synthesis. In FFXI, there was the moon phase, weather, direction you faced, etc.
So I was crafting a few nights ago, and I found that it was one of those terrible success rate times. I was failing synths that were 5 ranks below me at 60% progress. I'm currently a rank 26 carpenter with pretty decent crafting gear, and I felt that this shouldn't be happening. Then I looked at the sidebar gadget. I must say... if you're a crafter you need to have this gadget. It's pretty amazing. I found that the day element was water and the hour element was fire. Those are the two elements that I didn't have any elemental points into. I thought I would try resetting my points to put more into water. My success rates went up by a lot. In fact I didn't fail any after I changed it. What I do now is I reset my points every time the day element changes, but I don't put all of my points into the one element. I also found that it's important to have points into the hour element. Of course you won't have enough points to cover every element. I don't craft on the hour that I have very low points into. In game hours go by fast so it's not that big of a deal. Again... I haven't crafted enough since then to give solid proof. But, I haven't failed a synth since I've started doing this. I'm sure there are other factors that play into crafting like weather and moon phase.

I hope this information helps.
#2 Nov 08 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
5 posts
I'm not entirely sure about your theory on Threat generation, but I like your theory on the elemental days affecting crafting. I have tried it and it seems to work as you said. If I keep my day element strong and my hour element is pumped a bit too I seem to succeed a lot more often. And while frustrating to reassign points all the time, its available pretty often so I guess that's fine.

It is also nice that there are people trying to find the mysteries behind the game and enjoy it. ^_^

Thanks for posting your ideas~
#3 Nov 08 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
32 posts
Enmity, as far as ive noticed, is pretty similar to FFXI. Moves you do build hate (depending on the move more/less hate), and over time your enmity goes down, more so when a mob hits you.
#4 Nov 08 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I've found that I can keep hate on the mob easier by just using Provoke, Taunt, and Defender, with a Heavy Strike added every now and then. Because of the slow stamina regen, I can just alternate between those three mainly; but I think it does a pretty good job keeping the mob on me. Too bad I can't always survive the outcome!
#5 Nov 08 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
32 posts
XainVeliki wrote:
I've found that I can keep hate on the mob easier by just using Provoke, Taunt, and Defender, with a Heavy Strike added every now and then. Because of the slow stamina regen, I can just alternate between those three mainly; but I think it does a pretty good job keeping the mob on me. Too bad I can't always survive the outcome!


curing yourself creates a good amount of hate too.
#6 Nov 08 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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437 posts
RE: Crafting

Please at least do some actual TESTING not just one time things before you spout theories. IF and I do mean IF you have to reallocate your points every FFXIV day and/or hour just to have a decent chance to make something your level then something is very, very, very wrong.
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#7 Nov 08 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
shinichoco wrote:
RE: Crafting

Please at least do some actual TESTING not just one time things before you spout theories. IF and I do mean IF you have to reallocate your points every FFXIV day and/or hour just to have a decent chance to make something your level then something is very, very, very wrong.


So far as I've seen, the only benefit offered by your elemental resistances is the hit to durability you take from a chaotic element. I have 92 wind and 92 earth resistance and when I get a chaotic wind or earth element, I often take less of a durability hit than I do from a failed Standard synthesis.
#8 Nov 08 2010 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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437 posts
I've read most of your posts on crafting, Aurelius. The OP is claiming something far different though and I would rather wild theories and/or write offs of legitimate complaints to the crafting system to be kept to a minimum until SE actually FIXES the system (theoretically later this month...)

The game and crafting system make me incredibly frustrated and mad, but I really AM trying to hold out till they are fixed (it can't come soon enough, IMHO.) I really want to enjoy the game at this point, but between the real problems the game DOES have right now and people trying to sprinkle everything with happy fairy dust and say "OH! It's really all working, see here's how I think it really works!" don't really help out...
____________________________
行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#9 Nov 08 2010 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
shinichoco wrote:
I've read most of your posts on crafting, Aurelius. The OP is claiming something far different though and I would rather wild theories and/or write offs of legitimate complaints to the crafting system to be kept to a minimum until SE actually FIXES the system (theoretically later this month...)

The game and crafting system make me incredibly frustrated and mad, but I really AM trying to hold out till they are fixed (it can't come soon enough, IMHO.) I really want to enjoy the game at this point, but between the real problems the game DOES have right now and people trying to sprinkle everything with happy fairy dust and say "OH! It's really all working, see here's how I think it really works!" don't really help out...


Oh yes I know the frustration. I'm in the midst of a bout of it right now after having failed my third armorer local leve in a row. No, no...not a case of, "Hey, I've got lots of local armorer leves and I failed three dag nabbit!" More a case of, "I've been offered a total of three through the last two resets and I've failed them all." And they're not the close kind of failures. They're not the, "Aww, I knew I should have done <x> instead of <y>" kind. They're the "I had no chance from the beginning" kind of failures and that's ******** game design.

I don't want to spew a full page of anti-SE diatribe waxing eloquent on their ****** up notion of fun, but right now crafting is not fun for me. The November patch needs to bring about some substantial changes to crafting and that's all I have to say about that.
#10 Nov 08 2010 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
11 posts
Okay so I did some more testing, and I was definitely losing a lot more durability on failed synths if I didn't have the points into the day element or hour element. I was losing 9 or 10 durability when I had the points set according to day/hour. When I crafted on days/hours where I didn't have the points set, I was losing 20+. I'm sorry for spitting out ideas that don't have any solid proof yet. I thought it would get more people to try it out to see if it works. I don't really mind resetting my points every day change if it's going to increase my success rates by a lot. It's not that big of a deal... it takes 30 seconds or not even to reallocate your points. If anyone else can test it out I would appreciate it.

I know they said they're fixing a lot of bugs and stuff, but I find it hard to believe that everything that's going wrong in the game can be cleaned up by simply calling it a bug. The system could be more complex than just rank and stats.
#11 Nov 08 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
ShiggySonson wrote:
Okay so I did some more testing, and I was definitely losing a lot more durability on failed synths if I didn't have the points into the day element or hour element. I was losing 9 or 10 durability when I had the points set according to day/hour. When I crafted on days/hours where I didn't have the points set, I was losing 20+. I'm sorry for spitting out ideas that don't have any solid proof yet. I thought it would get more people to try it out to see if it works. I don't really mind resetting my points every day change if it's going to increase my success rates by a lot. It's not that big of a deal... it takes 30 seconds or not even to reallocate your points. If anyone else can test it out I would appreciate it.


Range of durability loss for Standard synthesis for recipes at or below your rank that don't require a training book and/or a subcraft is 0-20. Above your rank, requiring a training book, and especially if it requires a subcraft, I've seen up to 30 durability loss from a standard synthesis failure.

All of my elemental resistances are between 56 and 95 right now and I still get failed Standard attempts for upwards of 15 durability on almost every synth. I don't need to reallocate my points to test this because I've probably already got more points spent into elemental resistances than the vast majority of players in the game right now. It's a dead end theory.

Quote:
I know they said they're fixing a lot of bugs and stuff, but I find it hard to believe that everything that's going wrong in the game can be cleaned up by simply calling it a bug. The system could be more complex than just rank and stats.


It is, but it still relies heavily on a random element influencing your chance to succeed with every action. All of these influences and mechanics and all that only go so far and then all that's left are your final modified chances for success with any given action versus the random number generator.
#12 Nov 08 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
11 posts
Okay well I guess I found an idea that doesn't work. Onto other possible ideas that might work! Thanks for the info, and if you find out anything else let me know. Thanks.
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