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XIV could be the Coup d'etat we were waiting forFollow

#1 Nov 10 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Or it could fall to naught.

Before anyone says anything, I hope this will be an intelligent conversation.

I started playing FFXIV since its Open Beta release, and I have had my fair share of disappointment and interest. Yet, I was planning to remain quiet (if this being my first post doesn't clue you off, I had been lurking in ZAM and everywhere else to read what people say), giving FFXIV the time and benefit of doubt before I fight for or against my most anticipated MMORPG's release ever since Square announced Rapture.

Was.

Unfortunately, I had enough of all the negativity. For the sake of argument, lets look at FFXIV with some value of positivity and optimism.

Final Fantasy XIV, with no doubt at all, should never have had been release before it was ready. If there is anything Square Enix must learn from the leading MMORPG's makers, it is that perfectionist Blizzard only releases its game when they think it is ready (without any regard of any promises made to their anticipating fans). Even then, might I add, the early days of Azeroth isn't without their problems.

For whatever reasons Square had erred on that, they have been trying to salvage the mistake. The second month of free trial is evidently enough in their effort to cover their mistakes and appease their fans. However, that isn't enough, Square Enix only value is to deliver what their promise, and continue to positively encourage feedback, and acting on it.

Aside from that, Square made a few design flaws mostly on their user interface. It is hard to, and for anybody, to navigate the interface without first feeling extremely frustrated. While I find it reasonably use-able after awhile, I cannot say the same for everybody. We all know that is a problem, so I am going to skip this as well.

Where XIV disappoint me the most, is their failure to deliver their promises in character customization. In most of my studies, I valued personalization as the core of all MMORPG. Customization represents individuality, which leads to loyalty and commitment to a character, which XIV had so obviously attempts at that direction.

It is apparent that FFXIV failed in many exterior design aspect (I am not talking about graphics thou, their graphics are just AMAZING). Everyone knows the already over-said truth. Therefore, I am not going to continue on all the other problems that we already know.

I am going to continue on the biggest problem, as well as its greatest virtues: that, this game is overwhelming. So overwhelming as if Square sadistically just dumped us in their newly designed cheese maze. The steep learning curves were, exponentially scary.

Which leads to my point of "Coup d'etat" (took awhile didn't I?).

Games, since forever, have been refining tutorials, allowing a soft introduction to its players. A smooth welcome to the game is essential without a doubt. There is where, left-wing theorists would gladly disagree.

For the longest time, gamers have been debating the direction of gaming future. Games as it is, is an entertainment, should be fun and light-hearted should it not? Why would anyone compare a game to reality? If anyone wanted a reality inspired game, they should be living their life instead. Gaming is, after all, an art of escapism.

However, many would not stop short in correcting you. Gaming, by many other names, includes more popularly: Virtual Reality. Virtual Reality promises a world, which does not exist in our real world, as near to reality as possible, so players can immerse themselves in the world of make-believe.
And all MMORPG's designers role, is to make a premise which players can immerse in.

Everything else falls in second. If you want action, pick FPS or Hack-and-slash. If you want storyline and/or the gratification of being hero, get a RPG. If you want things to be simpler, play tetris.

MMORPG is as complicated as a society is. It isn't just a game, it is a civilization. There is just no other genre of games out there with that much intensive researches on reality. Economics, communities, social sciences, demographics, balance issues, to name a few There is just no other game that is more transparent and impressive as putting thousands of humans together in a game.

FFXIV, like most other purists MMORPGs, put us in an overwhelming world for ourself to adventure and to discover. Not the smartest choice if we are thinking mainstream. Yet there is value in that thought.

In fact, FFXIV is like a world of adventure. They throw you in a world, teaches you only the basics of the basics, and leave everything else to yourself, your own choice and decision. It is overwhelming yes, but it creates individuality, it creates stories. It creates adventures. You won't know where to go, like a blind searching for his way in the room, and you tend to find something interesting when you get lost. An underground cave, a small unknown town, beautiful breathtaking views.

FFXIV blurs your vision so you can look at the bigger picture, instead of: You are a swordsman, you start out in newbie town, after you reach lvl 10, go to sub-newbie town. Then at lvl 15, you can go to graduation town. Maybe become a knight or gladiator. Oh, and ignore all the small little things along the way, those aren't important. What is important is when you reach lvl 100. Don't you just want to play end-game content? No?

It is as if all those MMORPGs should just ignore the hassle, destroy the whole leveling system and just go straight to end-game.

Square knows RPG by heart.

FFXIV scares alot of people like how real life can be. You could choose to be a lawyer, a doctor, a pilot, a soldier, but no one is going to tell you how it is done step-by-step. You have to find out yourself. And if you find that maybe medicine along the way isn't for you, drop it and learn to fly a plane, maybe? Anyway, when you were young, the future is blurry, probably something for future you to worry about. Now you are just contend with the remote-controlled helicopter that can fly. Maybe you could be a pilot, but you won't be worrying about that just yet.

That is putting value to all level content. That is an RPG. That is a meaningful growth. Sadly, its greatest revolution is never well-appreciated, probably due to bad execution of a well thought.

Suddenly, you realized where Square has been putting their eyes on, albeit a tad blind. Look deep into Final Fantasy XIV, and surprise, surprise:

The comprehensive Crafting and Gathering system is one of the most impressive and creative way to revamp Online Gaming economics. I will touch on this later, because you will need to try to see for yourself first.

Then there is the lores. The stories that make the world a world. I played Gridania, so I can't comment on the other two. But I love how they give the characters' stories. They gave me an idea that if I were the native of Gridania, I could be a believer of faith. And everyone in Gridania plays that role. Then the story would continue to question the authenticity of their faith. It makes the player thinks for the moment.

Instead of, hey at end-game I am going to be a super paladin cause it is good in PVP, and I am going to make a name for myself in the PVP sector. Nevermind that I am a Paladin, I have no idea what faith I have, I don't care I am killing, and I makes a **** lot of money and I don't believe in charity. No, I am not in character, why do I care? I just want to be the top of the table.

While some games like LOTOR, WOW and Star Wars have a long line of franchise and stories to aid them with. Square is trying to deliver the stories on its own. There is certainly a lack of lores now, but given Square expertise in storytelling, all it needs now is to create the content, which they promise they would...

Or if you look at its combat system. Yes, a lot of people states that most MMORPG requires strategy. Like WOW. Strategies often consists of what people know what they are supposed to do. The healers heal, the tankers tank, the buffers buff his allies and debuff the enemies, and the nukers... nuke.

Don't get me wrong, WOW is comprehensive and smart in its own right. However, FFXIV could possibly deliver more (could but have not yet). Players are now required to know what others players could do. So they can experience a whole lot of other content, explore all the different possibility, and slowly form your own team and style. There is no one way to play FFXIV combat system.

In fact, FFXIV true beauty is one of self-exploration and experience. Their creators must have put too much considerations in its core, like giving an ugly person a heart of gold. Sure someone is going to treasure that, but most of us are obviously more shallow. I know I am. They forgotten many other important things that makes... A game a game.

So much so that it even constantly reminds us of our real life.
Which crazy developers will encourage their fans to stay away from the game?

Unless, of course that is because Square Enix is trying to target the right demographics: its original fans. Most of us fell in love in Final Fantasy during our youth. Unfortunately, we all grew up. We all now have responsibilities, and MMORPGs do not encourage responsibilities. Square is trying to stay loyal to us: the working class, who had first played and be loyal to its franchise.

So lets discuss. I could be wrong. Maybe most of you don't see XIV as a revolution, just a failed idea, but then you won't be here. Or maybe you can see what I see. That while interfaces can be changed, banks could be made, there is something that can never be re-touched. Its very foundation.

And the greater the foundation the higher the pyramid could be built.
Lets share our insights, academically instead of self-preferences, of what XIV could be.

To end this first post: FFXIV is a platform built on Potential but fails in Execution. However, what was done, cannot be undone. Square Enix must look forward and fulfills its promises it made, only then FFXIV will be the Coup d'etat of modern MMORPG.
#2 Nov 10 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
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Can you sum that up for me?
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#3 Nov 10 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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You should be a novelist.
#4 Nov 10 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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well, since coup e'tat usually means a swift, decisive overthrow of government by a small group, I'm not sure in what context it's supposed to apply.

FFXIV is the dissenting conspirator, plotting to tackle and remove the dictator juggernaut of Warcraft? Only it's more Keystone Cops at the moment?

I think the OP should "sum up", too.
#5 Nov 10 2010 at 8:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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SUM UP:

Everyone be nice.

FFXI was released too soon.

The interface sucks.

Character customization sucks.

Graphics are nice.

FFXIV is too heavy it makes my head spin.

I love RPGs.

FFXIV has the potential to be SE's best RPG ever and I'm in tears just thinking about it.

More tears.

SE better not fail or imma hunt them #@##$%& DOWN.

Discuss.

Edited, Nov 10th 2010 9:58pm by rikkuotaku
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#6 Nov 10 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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The coup failed. The only thing the people involved in this coup can hope for is they don't lose their head (get fired).

#7 Nov 10 2010 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hah. That is a interesting way to sum it up.
But...

What I am trying to say is, FFXIV works in its foundation. The ideas behind them is valid and interesting. However, ideas are merely ideas, that without the right execution fails. Like communism.

I think that FFXIV is revolutionary. They try what others avoid. While may not be in the best way possible, we should look at their effort, instead of endlessly complaining about things they said they are working at. I know many people hate the game, but I like it. Apart from them, its foundation is extremely insightful in their attempts in making things work differently. Say its economic, its storytelling, its combat system.

When I meant foundation, I meant its core structure. Yes, it is not perfect, it needs tons of fine-tuning. However it is easier to dealt with in comparison with something with a failed foundation.

I seek to discuss academically the revolution FFXIV could be. Not our every individual preferences is, for as far as personal preferences are, I don't hate it as much as most of you may be.

As for Coup d'etat, it might not be a good choice of word. Certainly "Dissenting Conspirator" is an interesting choice of word.
But, I said COULD BE. In no way is XIV anywhere near that, yet.
And when it does, I am not talking about it taking over WOW. I am talking about it changing future MMORPG.


And no, I am not talking all the future MMORPG will be like FFXIV. I am talking about changing people thoughts on how MMORPG could be instead of mere right-wing theories.

Edited, Nov 10th 2010 10:16pm by AstraiosVindr
#8 Nov 10 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok... how to put this. Basically, one of the points the OP is trying to make is that the lack of goals presented in XIV is supposed to support autonomy... letting us do whatever we want to do. Because they don't give us direction, and there's so much to do, we're overwhelmed. I think the flaw in the argument is apparent, but maybe not.

So yes, technically, you can do "anything"... go anywhere, with anyone, make your character however... within the game's limits.

And that's the problem. The game doesn't actually allow you to do much that is interesting. The fact that you're allowed to experience all of its boring content any way you want doesn't make it fun. And it's something that tons of other games do better, and will actually have things for you to do.

If you put me in a desert with nothing but the clothes on my back, I'm going to be overwhelmed, but I'm not going to have fun.

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#9 Nov 10 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know if this is related or not... but just cause there were people on here talking about how much more fun LOTRO is/was then FFXIV ... I downloaded it and made a character. I didn't even last two hours. I can't stand that kind of hand holding. I just can't. I would much rather get thrown into a giant world in hempen rags and have a single intro quest to get me started then to have a quest npc every five feet with a glowing ring over their head. It just isn't my style.

I understand that others might like that but I prefer to go out into the world and make my own choices... and I have an incredibly hard time even imagining playing a game that doesn't let me change jobs on the same character/toon/whatever.

Also - I find it ridiculous to walk five steps from a quest npc, check some orc bodies and get rewarded gear and experience points. I'm sure the game has a lot of challenges further down the road, but yeah, that is over the top easy. It's actually insulting.

So how does this relate to OP? Well, I think they are on to something with the way the world is designed - and I can see how it would put some people off- especially those accustomed to games that really hold your hand. But as the community gets more knowledge about the game, already people are feeling less overwhelmed by the openess - with camps forming up for good SP. I know I've learned a lot about the world and the available skills etc that has made my life easier.


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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#10 Nov 10 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Final Fantasy XIV, with no doubt at all, should never have had been release before it was ready


Why does this arguement keep coming up as the end all be all of reasons? If i remember right, beta testers were complaining about alot of these issues very early into the beta yet nothing was done. Likewise, the fundamentals of the game which need fixing are not something that was rushed - it was purposefully designed as such.

Quote:
In fact, FFXIV is like a world of adventure. They throw you in a world, teaches you only the basics of the basics, and leave everything else to yourself, your own choice and decision. It is overwhelming yes, but it creates individuality, it creates stories. It creates adventures. You won't know where to go, like a blind searching for his way in the room, and you tend to find something interesting when you get lost. An underground cave, a small unknown town, beautiful breathtaking views.


I would agree, if there were adventuring to be had aside from grinding or the occasional mission. I said it before in another thread - there is no immersion or adventure in this game for me. It literally feels as though myself (through my character) is an unknown spectator, irrelevant in the grand scheme of the story.

That to me is not immersion into the story nor is it adventuring.

Quote:
Square knows RPG by heart.


I used to agree with you. Then FF8, FF12 and FF13 came along. These games by themselves lack the very core elements of an RPG - Immersive story (ff8 had some of the worst plot hooks of any mmo i have ever played), dynamic combat system (ff12 basically played itself with macros) and exploration (ff13 is as linear as it gets).

Quote:
The comprehensive Crafting and Gathering system is one of the most impressive and creative way to revamp Online Gaming economics. I will touch on this later, because you will need to try to see for yourself first.


Crafting is pretty nicely implemented, though somewhat vague and random. Those are both easily fixed.

Gathering however... well its pretty bland to me. They all have the same minigame. I suppose to me, it is like AoC's combat system - exceptionally fun in small doses. Past that, it becomes tedium.

Quote:
Then there is the lores. The stories that make the world a world. I played Gridania, so I can't comment on the other two. But I love how they give the characters' stories. They gave me an idea that if I were the native of Gridania, I could be a believer of faith. And everyone in Gridania plays that role. Then the story would continue to question the authenticity of their faith. It makes the player thinks for the moment.


Again, see my reply about being the invisible witness.

My actions have no consequence, they have no meaning. I am merely there to witness events (insofar as i have seen so far)

Quote:
Instead of, hey at end-game I am going to be a super paladin cause it is good in PVP, and I am going to make a name for myself in the PVP sector. Nevermind that I am a Paladin, I have no idea what faith I have, I don't care I am killing, and I makes a **** lot of money and I don't believe in charity. No, I am not in character, why do I care? I just want to be the top of the table.


Don't blame a game for the players mentality. I would wager that most mmo's out there have a decently deep story going for them, its almost always up to the player to delve into it. WoW for example (since you used Paladin) has one of the richest lores of any IP going in mmo's. Most players don't dig that far in, most don't want to. That is not the games fault. ****, one would argue that there are RP servers there specifically for that type of person so that they may immerse themselves fully into the lore.

Quote:
Or if you look at its combat system. Yes, a lot of people states that most MMORPG requires strategy. Like WOW. Strategies often consists of what people know what they are supposed to do. The healers heal, the tankers tank, the buffers buff his allies and debuff the enemies, and the nukers... nuke.


Melee combat in ffxi = combat rogue in wow.

Seriously, equate combo points with TP and you have a 1:1 translation minus the auto attack.

Quote:
So lets discuss. I could be wrong. Maybe most of you don't see XIV as a revolution, just a failed idea, but then you won't be here.


I see it as the product of an extremely talented staff forced to (or by choice, idk) work within a bubble (as taken from the developers stance of "i don't follow the mmo genre")

If they had taken great ideas from other games (say, an inventory sort or an AH to name some obvious ones) and implemented them, improved upon them in SE's own way this game could have been the AAA success that they wanted.

Instead we get a complex and deep crafting system, hinged deeply within the gear progression of the game.. coupled with one of the most unituitive and flawed economic moving devices in a game - the market ward.

It's late and i have ranted too much as is... but that is just one of the biggest examples i can give. Brilliance in a bubble can be great. It can also be a tremendously ineffecient use of resources.
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#11 Nov 10 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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I Thought that was a well thought out post. You can see where the devs were taking this game. It's just that people don't seem to be ready for it.
Everobody wants something different, but nobody wants to change.
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#12 Nov 10 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In fact, FFXIV is like a world of adventure. They throw you in a world, teaches you only the basics of the basics, and leave everything else to yourself, your own choice and decision. It is overwhelming yes, but it creates individuality, it creates stories. It creates adventures. You won't know where to go, like a blind searching for his way in the room, and you tend to find something interesting when you get lost. An underground cave, a small unknown town, beautiful breathtaking views.


Eh XIV holds ur hand @ 1st. the intro was nicely done and they introduce you to the adventurers guild send u on a leve bla bla bla. It was @ least something. It's not like XI where you literally get a cs where u 1st arrive and then have 1 quest that nets u 50gil and then ur off on ur own. It doesn't create individuality, it creates confusion and lack of immersion.

You may find something neat on ur travels while ur lost, but in the end ur still lost... away from ur current goals. And its not like the undergound caves are much to see, seen one seen em all. 1/2 of them are copy pasted anyway >_>;

or you get 1 shotted while wandering to far.

Quote:
Square knows RPG by heart.


I actually can't remember the last time i had to "Role Play" in a SE game. Then again i think the western markets definition of Role play is different than that in the far east. When i think of "Western" role playing games i think of Morrowind, or Fallout or some type of game that lets the player mold the character into whatever sort of hero/villain/commoner/psycho they want.

While Eastern games, or more specifically Jrpgs, give you pre-defined characters, with their own thoughts, backgrounds and beliefs, and the way you play them is more like reading a book. If books had turn based combat. The story of [Insert Lead Character X] protaganist is always the same it won't change based on your actions, and the ending is almost always the same (except for the arbitrary do all the quests/collect every piece of itemX for 100% completion), the journey is 1 set path and players can't really say this is "My" character. I enjoyed FFX a lot back in 5th grade, when i was young and stupid and was excited cuz it was the next FF. Going back now i wonder how i put up w/ some of it. Some of the characters were unlikeable, i didn't really like tidus and he wasn't even really a fully developed character in my opinion.

Except for the class based games. I thought of this when reading KacesofCaitsith's comments towards XII, one thing i never understood were people who let the game play for them. I used Gambits for the other 2 characters while playing the role of tank or archer or healer/ or nuker w/ 1 char. I specifically set it up as a Party like i would in FFXI. This added some very interesting builds for characters w/ skills and summons...however XII suffered in the aspect that everyone could master anything and eventually did soo the FFXII International: Zodiac job system was made =D.

Which forced the characters into their class roles. This didn't change the story (which i actually enjoyed), but in the active play part of the game if you were Vahn you were more of a thief class than Vhan was in the normal XII (in my 1st playthrough he ended up using a sword and shield but couldn't even if i wanted in the zodiac edition) and he was the only character who could Steal etc. It felt more like playing as Zidane from IX, who looked and acted more like a thief. Making his character and actions (in cutscenes) that much more believable (although Vahn was there more as a spectator anyway, Balthier was the leading man hehe).

How does that relate to XIV? well lets look @ player characters. @ 1st they all start out very unique and interesting. the character creation is smooth and pretty spiffy, class selection goes well and then once ur placed in the world and level up and get new gear etc. You start to notice everyone sort of blend together. Your not so much a Lancer anymore when you've got skills from a Pug, & Mar, heals and buffs from the Con class and wear the same gear as every other Lnc,Mar,Gla (and some pugs) when i noticed i too had fallen into the bronze hauby bandwagon, i quickly searched the markets and shouted for somethin different, and found Bone scail mail and got me a +3 Willow 1/2 mask. Now i was different! or so i thought. In the end my character was melding in w/ everyone else until we all become this sort of weird hybrid whos a jack of all trades & master of none. Sure DD's will still be DDs but w/ our current party system..its all so shallow. sure GLA has a shield and takes less damage but there isn't much that sets them apart from the mar wearing the exact same gear as he standing next to him.

Another thing is, FFXIV never immersed me in its lore or story, mainly because i was cut off from it by the huge grinds, and its not like i have a choice, you literally cannot advance the story without having 1st completed the necessary grind for the story/guild missions.

I too started in Gridania and actually got very very interested in the story and the relationship w/ the elementals but then i found myself taking longer and longer to find anything else out. Npcs spout the same 1 line of dialog and for the most part all of the npcs are stationary which don't really give me the sense of a living and breathing world. Same goes for the zones, not cities but actual areas u can explore. Their all so samey and unimaginitive that exploration becomes dull. Sure the 1st time it was great, they were sites i had never seen before but then just quite literally minutes later i would see the exact same area again, the same river, the same waterfall, and that kind of depressed me.

On the topic of immersion XIV (and XI as well) UI break the flow pretty badly. then again thats a technical problem they will probably hash out @ some point.

For this game to survive long enough, they need to hammer out those changes fast. Although i don't think this will save it. The problems of this game seem to be more @ the core of XIV and to chip away and even get to those problems would destroy the establish world and the way it works. It makes me wonder what their goals were when making the game.

Edited, Nov 10th 2010 9:53pm by Toukai

Edited, Nov 10th 2010 9:58pm by Toukai
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#13 Nov 10 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
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hello, I can't see this clear enough to justify them for making a game like this, not saying you are, just pointing something you made me think, that SE was trying to be revolutionary and full of good intentions...

In fact I try to convince myself of that too, that they were trying to be loyal to their fan base, that were trying to apeal others to play what they thought would be a nice virtual world with alot of real life sense. But I can't and in the end I just can see them trying to be greedy and conceited, feeling that they knew what their target players base would like without listenning them and ending forcing to us their concept of fun, what make it worse I doubt they tried their game really leading to their own "Coup d'etat" rushing ideas like realeasing date and people will like what ever we make over concepts of enjoyable, smooth UI, fun grinding, comunity, party fun, ingame economics, etc.
#14 Nov 10 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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If the OP is a 15 lancer, then in my opinion, he hasn't played the game enough.

The battle system is horrible, just horrible. Wait till you get to R25+.

Everything in this game is a time sink, even the crafting system. What is the purpose of the FINISH step?

And the randomness of things amazes me.

But I will admit, it is a lot like real life especially when you try to chat with someone and get inter
#15 Nov 10 2010 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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Ponderosa wrote:
If the OP is a 15 lancer, then in my opinion, he hasn't played the game enough.

The battle system is horrible, just horrible. Wait till you get to R25+.

Everything in this game is a time sink, even the crafting system. What is the purpose of the FINISH step?

And the randomness of things amazes me.

But I will admit, it is a lot like real life especially when you try to chat with someone and get inter


Actually i think the finish step is there because when making Armor, you get the option to Touch up, or finish. Touching up loses dura but has a chance to +1 or higher the gear. If dura gets too low, you click finish so u dont break the synth.

Im assuming they left the finish step there because it would take to much time to remove it...?
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#16 Nov 10 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Toukai wrote:
Ponderosa wrote:
If the OP is a 15 lancer, then in my opinion, he hasn't played the game enough.

The battle system is horrible, just horrible. Wait till you get to R25+.

Everything in this game is a time sink, even the crafting system. What is the purpose of the FINISH step?

And the randomness of things amazes me.

But I will admit, it is a lot like real life especially when you try to chat with someone and get inter


Actually i think the finish step is there because when making Armor, you get the option to Touch up, or finish. Touching up loses dura but has a chance to +1 or higher the gear. If dura gets too low, you click finish so u dont break the synth.

Im assuming they left the finish step there because it would take to much time to remove it...?



its easier to program it so that it gives you all the finish options in 1 menu, regardless of how many are available then it is to add in scenerio menus for something like this
itd basicaly be alot of extra work just to make it so you dont have to hit enter 1 more friggin time if you cant touch up
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#17 Nov 10 2010 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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@Kachi:
I agree. The lack of content is apparent. Which leads to my point of how XIV isn't executing its potential as it should.

But as far as a bare barren desert you see, I did prefer to refer XIV as a Savanna, or at least one with some fauna and flora. To me, there is still some interesting oasis to the land. Thou definitely there should and could be more.

@Oloruinus:
Yes. Actually another point of blurry the objectives of the world is to promote cohesion. Thou XIV never really put that through, or the community is still growing. The thing about most MMORPGs gamers are that they are too involved in reaching end-game that in FFXIV, all they are really interested is, upped the level and communicate later. What could have been is when members share their knowledge. Try and experience different possibility, and fail, probably waste time, but at least creates interaction among players.

I think too many players takes their rat race mentality into MMORPG. Therefore the annoyance.

@Kace:
Really? I did like to think that the lack of content is due to a rushed product. Intrigue me, what fundamentals were wrong?

And is not most MMORPGs gamers a mere spectator? Do any sole individual have any role in the grand plan? Maybe you did like to kill a hero in the lore, which probably is killed by every other single guy out there. Like most reality, you are hardly the grand scheme of anything. A mere pebble cannot change the flow of the river. Nevertheless I agree that XIV could be like EVE Online.

Maybe to you adventuring is going on a mission. However, to me Adventuring is exploration, most usually a spectator of what is laid before us. If any, being part of the grand plot should be classified as... "a sense of belonging"?

FF8 has their own fans, although I am not much into it... Some people seem to love it a lot. I am not taking combat system to play, because combat is hardly a strong component of RPG classification. I have no say in FF13 I simply because I haven't play it yet.

When i said RPG. I mean Square understood the process to end-game content. That there is actually a process. People are too involved in getting to the end as fast as possible, but RPG is talking about the whole content from the start to the end. To take it slowly, and experience all the different things laid out for you.

You are right. Gathering is quite bland. Maybe I should just state crafting, but I kind of think they go hand in hand.

When I said Paladin, I never said WOW (or I hope I did not). Because WOW comprehensive lores are back by its franchises. I state or MMORPGs on its own. Most MMORPGs on their own never emphasis much on anything of their lores except it is something, there. FFXIV actually makes me remember the story, at least better than most others. Of course by far, I preferred FFXI more.

When I meant combat, I didn't say anything about individuality. I meant all the little ideas of incapacitation, skill-chaining, and stuff.

@Teneleven: Thanks

@Toukai: Yes, XIV teaches you the basics of the basics, then leave you there. I am not comparing to FFXI. Of all the things XIV put you through in the tutorials did nothing to prevent the fact that the world is still overwhelming. There is so many things you have no idea. Like where to go from now, what if I want to change class, what if I want to learn a craft.

I don't exactly have a goal when I go exploring. Or if I got lost from my current goal, it doesn't take long to navigate back. Just so as long as a part of my brain remembers there is a place I can just go back and sit to watch the sunsets at.

Morrowind and Fallout will be something more like an... Adventure game, but it can still be strongly classified as a RPG of course. And when people give you a pre-defined character, it just means you role-play from their point of view. Take KOTOR or Fable, and such, they have more options, but there is only one true path. When you earn a different ending, it is just a different way of saying: "Game Over, You didn't get our intended best ending".

When they release a sequel or any franchises, they will follow the actual plotline that you were suppose to get. In the end, I am not going to argue with you want RPG actually means, but RPG is not talking about freedom of choice.

Well, you can say everyone is like everyone. You could be a fixed class, say a mage, but you are not going to be the only mage out there with the only built unless you are a strength/vitality mage. Individuality in and MMORPG is more than just class and skills.

If you want to talk about class, it is really about how you play in the world with your friends and whats your preferences. You can be a mix of everything, but it is harder to find one that is exactly like you. Like I can be a mage warrior, and you can be a warrior mage. The point is developing your own style.

I don't know about XIV being all that grinding, because I don't find it so. I play it at my own pace slowly, and each time I level, there is something new to try. As far as the first 20lvls I played, I felt that the bar is really pretty easy and casual. I have been doing everything alone so far. And I am hoping to explore partying later on.

And I am interested to see what you have to say about the core of XIV.
#18 Nov 10 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Decent
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jadyness wrote:
well, since coup e'tat usually means a swift, decisive overthrow of government by a small group...


You had to google it didn't you? :P

I don't see how Coup applies here, unless SE devs are planning a Coup on their bosses by burning the company to the ground by releasing an unfinished product then yes...this is nothing short of a coup and coup + le makes couple meaning that's a couple 40s i'll never get back...this game has coup written all over it. Joking aside however, I still have a glimmer of hope for this game, maybe with a few server merges, maybe with a revamped game by March and a bigger ad campaign (which doesn't seem plausible since SE needed to sell their game, make money, in order to continue working on it...that's the only reason it was released so soon otherwise another bank loan would've meant more interest, etc. etc. and the bosses would've been ****** off)....and maybe this game will live on and grow with time.
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#19 Nov 10 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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My first mmorpg was Ultima Online, I remember making my character and logging in with 30 gold, a book and a candle, as well as a set of noob clothes that I would soon learn were the equivalent of a "Kill Me" sign. That was it, that's all you had in the world, there were no starter quests, safe areas or tutorials, I spent a good 10 minutes trying to talk to an NPC.
Maybe someone took pity on you and explained some things or threw you some gold or gear, maybe they lured you out into the forest and killed you and chopped up your corpse parading the pieces around for your ghost to see. It was exciting, it was scary, it was confusing and it was wonderful.
Fast forward, you've been around the block, you know your way around Hyloth dungeon and you've developed skills and know how that allow you to carve out a place in the world that is uniquely yours, you have arrived.
It was hard as **** and we didn't know what we were doing, it was heaven.

FF11 was the intellectual progression of the mmorpg, it was immersion, it was tangible, it was another world and behind it all was a driving force of organization and progression. You earned your levels and you needed others by your side to make it out alive. You felt the love of FF in every aspect of the game. It had a soul.

The first time I logged into WOW I almost puked, you can't return to the farm after you've seen the big city, what an insult to the human mind.

FFxiv, you can tell the designers have no love for FF, no heart for gaming. without heart, the beautiful, beautiful body is dying.



Edited, Nov 11th 2010 12:15am by Gammorah
#20 Nov 10 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Default
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Hey hey hey, FFVIII was good! ...Except Rhiona, cause she sucked and always got chosen by Ultimicia and since you never used her you got ****** over. <,<

And seriously, whining over FFXII playing itself is a ridiculous argument. You don't like gambits? THEN DON'T USE THE GAMBITS, GAWD. No one's forcing you to use the gambits, and if you can't handle the game without any gambits at all, then just use gambits for the things you can't handle and go from there.

Anyways, what's the point of this thread again? I mean seriously, what's the point of all these threads really? I thought we had a complaint thread and the rest of these types of threads would get locked up or something?

When I check FFXI general forums, a few posts are annoying useless posts like how abyssea is ruining FFXI, and the rest is mixed with hilarious posts like real life crawler found, or week accomplishments, or the like, and here it's almost all whining over the exact same subject and nothing else. Where's the FFXIV accomplishment thread? The funny comments? I realize the games unfinished and all but the scope of all these complaints has gone far beyond genuine upset and into the "I'm complaining so I can feel special!" territory.

The dev team knows they ****** up, and ****** up bad. Mission accomplished. Now go post your complaints in the complaint thread like the admins asked, or post your suggestions on how to fix it in the suggestion forum, where, you know, people who give a **** might actually see it and listen.

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#21 Nov 10 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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ff8 was one of my fav rpg. I liked the flash backs with lugana. And if you take time to talk to npc, lugana is squalls father. Who at one point dated a girl who ended up as rhinoa mother. who the father was the suprior of lugana. The song eyes on my had a point in the story.

Ffxiv does have lore, we are not given everything at launch just a few breadcrumbs. With wow more lore is online not in game. It does have potentional, and SE will fix it. Beta wasn't easy, it was shut down alot if ppl remember. SE was focused more on the server stability then other stuff. If the servers was more stable I think the launch woulda been a bit better. But as I said in my post, oing into a new mmorpg as an mmorpg veteran is not the best thing. Learn the game as if your first, take time and don't rush. Try everything out as this was never a 1 class 1 character game, if you only like 1 class maybe look at a different mmo.

as for ff12, I didn't like it. Story was ff tatics advance with different cast. Same town, same races, even had monte blanc. If you leveled it like you level in ff11 you can max out way early. I found out you can max chain on zoning and rezoning in the mines along the rail segments with the mass easy to kill skele mobs. Got max chain exp/ rewards so max out on cash before the first esper fight. So pretty much I had maxed characters, all the to moves, and basically best weapons I loged off and never played it after.

Edited, Nov 11th 2010 12:55am by Irishclass777
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#22 Nov 10 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, coup isn't appropriate and doesn't fit, although I get what the OP is saying.

But basically, everyone is a consumer. Anyone playing the game now actually bought it (or someone did for them) and that was a vote for the company. It told them you liked their vision and thought they looked competent with a decent product so much so, that you'd be willing to put $50-$80 bucks down.

After a few weeks, people are/were cancelling like mad even though the game is basically F2P right now; SE isn't charging people one red cent to play and still they are leaving. That's a pretty powerful statement.

A coup suggests you overthrow the company and replace the heads and then put who YOU want in place to run things like you want. That's impossible for too many reasons.

The simplest thing to do is simply to unsubscribe rather than play the game saying "I HOPE they fix it and I'll keep logging in and doing much of the same old thing daily until they do or they start charging me" if you aren't having fun. I never understand the logic of people saying "Well, I'm not having fun but it's free so that's why I'm playing it and not complaining".

Heck, using that logic.. those morons must take free pieces of dog poo from people who scooped it up after walking their dog cause "it was free". Or food that tastes horrible from this place or that because "it was free".

Just do what people always do in a capitalistic society; take your money and/or interest away and they'll learn to listen. Every company does that or their stockholders are the ones who 'have the coup'.

Post: I am not saying everyone should quit. I am saying if you aren't having fun, why would you play a game simply because it was free?
#23 Nov 11 2010 at 12:53 AM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
jadyness wrote:
well, since coup e'tat usually means a swift, decisive overthrow of government by a small group...


You had to google it didn't you? :P


*grin*

honey, they shouldn't have made an internet if they didn't want me to use it. :P
#24 Nov 11 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with the OP. FFXIV has immense potential but the little things really bring the game down on its knees.

To me FFXIV is like an unfinished painting. When you look at it, it only looks like a mess with paint and ink and pencil lines everywhere and the viewer has no idea what in the seven hells is going on. Too many things still remain a mystery (food effects for example) and it feels like many things were left out due to rushed development (chocobo/airships, Ishgard, many items with no real use at the moment). Furthermore, there is no direction. Other than the few and far between city quests, there is nothing that really drives a player to want to level. The fact that one can equip any piece of gear regardless of level does not help. The sense of accomplishment when leveling up and finally being able to equip that shiny new gear has been lost. Sure, you can argue that it is up to the player to decide whether or not to equip higher-ranked gear and many have opted to do just that. However, seeing that Rank 25 gladiator wielding an iron longsword into battle is still irksome and the player still gets the feeling that the whole purpose of ranking up is lost.

What this game needs is time. Many will argue that two months is far more than enough time than this game deserves, and I wholeheartedly agreed with you but what is done is done. Until SE fills in the painting and smooths out the rough edges FFXIV will never be what it can be - and it can be the next masterpiece if done correctly. At this point, the only logical thing to do is hang up your adventuring mitts until March or even later which by then SE can hopefully prove to the world that FFXIV really is the diamond in the rough.
#25 Nov 11 2010 at 1:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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952 posts
I'm going to sum it up the best I can.


I want a fun game, that's right a fun game. I want to come home at the end of the day, log on and immerse myself in the world of Eorzea. I want to fight monsters and create shiny armor. I want to go on adventures with friends. I want to experience the epic story of my character in Eorzea.

You know what though? Square so far hasn't given me a fun game. It's tedious, repetitive and has no real motivation to advance my character. It's lacking in story and fun. I want to be able to group with others and have a fun experience progressing my character. I want the feeling I had in XI.

You know what I get though? All the grind I got in XI with none of the gratification and a whole lot of frustration. It honestly feels like they took a step backwards to me and forgot what they learned. I thought this game was going to have the same magic that XI had with none of the ********* I was wrong.

But with that being said I'm still here, still giving Square the benefit of the doubt. Hoping that they don't **** this up, that they have an ace up there sleeves or are ready to pull a rabbit out of their collective asses because right now, short of a few promises, they haven't done much to show they give a ****.
#26 Nov 11 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
@Kace:
Really? I did like to think that the lack of content is due to a rushed product. Intrigue me, what fundamentals were wrong?


It's early, forgive me if i miss a few things:

Marketward, retainer system, no internal recipe book, action bar layout (imo it should be a 3x3 square for controller users), UI menu structure (what is the point of the finish button?)

edit: it's early....

These things are fundamentally flawed to me because development time would not improve them, especially given that these things were vocalized (sans the action bar) by beta testers early on.


Quote:
And is not most MMORPGs gamers a mere spectator? Do any sole individual have any role in the grand plan? Maybe you did like to kill a hero in the lore, which probably is killed by every other single guy out there. Like most reality, you are hardly the grand scheme of anything. A mere pebble cannot change the flow of the river. Nevertheless I agree that XIV could be like EVE Online.


I don't really think so. Most other mmo's have the player driving the events. Quests are there to immerse the player and have their actions drive the story. Granted, the story is fairly fixed, but it is the play who drives them. That NPC you have to protect (for ex) will die if you don't. Granted, he will respawn... but he certainly won't be leaving his captive state without you.

If i do a quest to protect a town from invaders, the town recognizes that afterwards - through different dialogue or additional quests afterwards. All these drive the story forward.

In ffxiv, for me so far, i can literally sideline myself and the story moves along without me. Every mission i have done so far has been a cutscene, errand or something i can literally standby and let the NPC's handle.

Quote:
Maybe to you adventuring is going on a mission. However, to me Adventuring is exploration, most usually a spectator of what is laid before us. If any, being part of the grand plot should be classified as... "a sense of belonging"?


Nah, to me it is immersion. Any aspect of an mmo can be viewed from the outside - you can look up lore on various websites, view cutscenes on youtube, view maps / scenery from video as well.

Its the ability of the game to make you want to experience these things for yourself that is important.

Quote:
When i said RPG. I mean Square understood the process to end-game content. That there is actually a process. People are too involved in getting to the end as fast as possible, but RPG is talking about the whole content from the start to the end. To take it slowly, and experience all the different things laid out for you.


I agree with you. I just do not think that it applies to ffxiv. Aside from a mission every now and then, there is nothing to do but grind. If you rushed to level cap in this game, you would be taking in the exact same things that someone who took their time would. The only difference is the time it took.

What is the difference between speed leveling to cap in 30 days and slowly leveling to cap in 90 days in this game? There is no low level content to do (like CoP in ffxi). The missions are level paced out, so its easy to bang them out while you level in both cases.


Quote:
When I said Paladin, I never said WOW (or I hope I did not). Because WOW comprehensive lores are back by its franchises. I state or MMORPGs on its own. Most MMORPGs on their own never emphasis much on anything of their lores except it is something, there. FFXIV actually makes me remember the story, at least better than most others. Of course by far, I preferred FFXI more.


Sorry for assuming. I stand by my "it's up to the player" for these things however. These things are like life (as you yourself said) - you can choose to accept that if you apply a force to a beam, it will bend. Or you can choose to dive deeper into it and study engineering.

MMO's give you enough information to choose either route and be happy / viable.


Quote:
When I meant combat, I didn't say anything about individuality. I meant all the little ideas of incapacitation, skill-chaining, and stuff.


I see. Sadly i have not had the chance to use any of those - so i will not comment other than i thought it sounded great, but found the regime system vague and unintuitive.

Edited, Nov 11th 2010 8:59am by KacesofCaitsith
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#27 Nov 11 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Amen
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#28 Nov 11 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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I am having a tough time calling FFXIV "revolutionary" on account of the fact that theres nothing new in the game really, every aspect is recycled from late 90's early 2000's games. And really not good copies to be honest.

With that said, I think it's got a good chance of turning into a decent, fun game. I can see it finding a home on the Ps3 and being the top console based MMO.
#29 Nov 11 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I agree. The lack of content is apparent. Which leads to my point of how XIV isn't executing its potential as it should.


Oh, I'm not just referring to the lack of content. The content that is there is boring, too. Combat, crafting, and gathering... you know, the things you actually do in the game... they're so mind-numbing that I literally have fallen asleep playing the game.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#30 Nov 11 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
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Square hasnt made a good RPG since playstation FF7.
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#31 Nov 11 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Default
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However, ideas are merely ideas, that without the right execution fails. Like communism.


Pure Genius
#32 Nov 11 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Square hasnt made a good RPG since playstation FF7.


I really liked 9, myself, but not until the second time I picked it up. 10 was decent enough imo.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#33 Nov 11 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
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If youre on selbina can I have your stuff?
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#34 Nov 11 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
cornyboob wrote:
Square hasnt made a good RPG since playstation FF7.


7 was good, but it isn't the best FF. Wish ppl would stop talking about it like it cured cancer.
#35 Nov 11 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Default
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sadderpanda wrote:
After a few weeks, people are/were cancelling like mad even though the game is basically F2P right now; SE isn't charging people one red cent to play and still they are leaving. That's a pretty powerful statement.


No, no no.

I wish people would think about what they type when making such comments about FFXIV in regards to Free 2 Play MMOs. You don't pay for anything in a F2P MMO; there's no retail box, there's no startup fee, nothing. FFXIV isn't 'basically' F2P at all; you paid that 50/80 bucks to get started. Your traditional trial period is longer, yes, you but you aren't playing for 'free'.

Try to pay attention to the language syntax Earth has agreed upon.

Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Square hasnt made a good RPG since playstation FF7.


I really liked 9, myself, but not until the second time I picked it up. 10 was decent enough imo.


Agreed.

It wasn't the art direction either, that didn't bother me. The story though, was so drawn out, that I had to force myself to play it the first time.

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 12:51am by StrijderVechter

KristoFurwalken wrote:
I am having a tough time calling FFXIV "revolutionary" on account of the fact that theres nothing new in the game really, every aspect is recycled from late 90's early 2000's games. And really not good copies to be honest.

With that said, I think it's got a good chance of turning into a decent, fun game. I can see it finding a home on the Ps3 and being the top console based MMO.


This.

Just because you call a previously used mechanic in another MMO by a different term, doesn't make it revolutionary.

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 12:52am by StrijderVechter
#36 Nov 12 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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FF14 did not fail.. not yet. I preordered a game, played in beta, played in prerelease a while ago. This game fell short of my expectations and i put it on the shelf. It was just a poor game, not to big of a deal really I still had other games to fall back on, games that were still fairly new to me and kept my interest, at this time in my life it was wow right after the burning crusade expansion.


Upon FF14 releasing its game to early,as well as other issues most people can agree on, I again went to the fallback, WoW. Well after all this time in WoW, and ff11 before that , and UO before that, and a little EQ somewhere between that, WoW no longer wowed me. It bores me to be honest so I installed that old game, updated it and decided **** I get 10 free days lets give it a chance. Now the game is fun, its full, its enjoyable, and for all of you wondering, it is WAR.

only 4 servers, population is low but not as bad as it was when everyone was jumping ship, but it is fun. Now FF14 is a game with far more promise upon release than what war had( in my opinion) so if SE plays it right, it just be that new juggernuat of MMO's we all were hoping it would be, it just is not now.
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This is all just a fanboy civil war. Some are hurt that SE gave them such a crap game, the others are hurt that anyone would call it crap.
#37 Nov 12 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
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cornyboob wrote:
Square hasnt made a good RPG since playstation FF7.




SS lost alot of what made it great when it became SE, and did not gain much good but ff X was the last great game they made... well and 11 but thats a mmo
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KitsurubamiSouzahara wrote:
This is all just a fanboy civil war. Some are hurt that SE gave them such a crap game, the others are hurt that anyone would call it crap.
#38 Nov 12 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Good
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
action bar layout (imo it should be a 3x3 square for controller users)


Wow. I never thought of that - but that would be awesome.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#39 Nov 12 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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After skimming this I thought the author should have said: Coup de grâce instead...

But after actually reading it I thought:

This game ISN'T revolutionary. It looks like a good game with potential.

FFXI in its day did what it set out to do: Make people group up, fight monsters, find the best way to do that and repeat. Along the way you meet friends and share experiences. IF you had the TIME FFXI provided a deep experience. I'm hoping FFXIV will end up that way too.

In terms of the only thing I see revolutionary is the marriage of both the casual and hardcore play-styles. I just think it's very very very difficult thing to do. SE has tried but so far it has just made for an inconsistent game. Partly because most players are or can be both casual and hardcore. And either you're casual all the way until endgame (like WoW) or you're hardcore all the way (like FFXI).

The retainers, for instance, are an "interesting" idea, but not so good for the casual player. Same with the steep repairs and the general, "learn on your own, we're not holding your hand" type game play.

On the other hand leves are an "interesting" idea, but people love doing them because they are easy and quick. So you go from making (for the sake of the argument) 10,000SP one hour, to 1,000 the next.

To reiterate I don't think FFXIV will change the way MMOs are made. Perhaps if they released a more solid game, I think, well, it would have been a more solid game. So whatever fixes that are and will come up, will just fix the game, no more and no less.

Lastly I'm not looking for revolutionary. Sure I'd like to see new things, but if they don't work, they don't work. If they do, that's great too; even if it means changing my expectations a bit (like buying a controller instead of using my keyboard)... But I'd be lying if I said I didn't want FFXI-2; the only MMO where I've gone back to and reactivated time after time, because of my connection to my character, the time invested, the people I've met and quests I've done. And I'd love to do that with FFXIV...whenever SE is ready.
#40 Nov 12 2010 at 3:08 AM Rating: Good
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I was really hoping they would get innovative and let us do controller combos. e.g., set ability 1 to Up + X, ability 2 to Down + X, etc. This way you could even play it almost like an action game if you wanted to.

If nothing else, I'd really like to see more variety in class mechanics, like how they originally planned for Marauders to be able to charge their abilities while standing still, or Pugilists being able to shift slowly between offensive and defensive stances... this stuff seems to have been scrapped with the new battle system.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Nov 12 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
9 posts
No, this isn't a complain thread, nor a suggestion thread. This is talking about what XIV has, that most users don't see, or if one does see, where would another disagree? Everyone talks about its potential, but what is the potential everyone talks about? Where is the evidence? Where is the backing? That is the discussion.

No it isn't Coup de Grace. Maybe cause there is no swift end to anything.
I don't mean Coup d'etat as XIV amounting a mutiny in square. Why would anything suggest I meant that?
Sometimes we don't take things in its literal meanings, it is a figurative language.

Coup d'etat means the overthrowing of governance, usually swift, by a small group of people OR previously in authority positions. Either you see Square's XIV - as of current - a small group now, or XIV being the supposed successor of XI(which was without doubt an authority figure in the MMORPG world).

I mean XIV overthrowing the modern and current MMORPG ideals, or referred as the Right-Wing Theory.

I understand most of you probably played the old MMORPGs (Gammorah mentioned Ultima Online). Yes, that used to be the norm for MMORPGs. However, today, most MMORPGs usually have an extensive tutorials to teaches you almost everything you need to know to start. XIV stops short at that, while providing a simple and short tutorial, there is still tons of things left to explore yourself.

Apart from that, I think they play rather well by rethinking resources and trades by implementing a crafting system. Which surprisingly can be played as a class of their own. I might add that most crafting system in other MMORPGs is usually some mere side skills to have, which apparently XIV isn't so. It also helps XIV ****** or even prevent possible market inflations.

Or the combat system of incapacitation and regime and such. Like Kace, I haven't explore any myself, but the ideas written on it were comprehensive and interesting. Most MMORPG only includes strategies like: luring, handling aggro, making sure everyone do what they individually are supposed to do. XIV (actually since XI) reworked on that. By making sure everyone knows what everyone else are supposed to do. Say you use skill "A" and I must support with skill "B", and you must use skill "C" at that point. There can actually generate a lot of communications and testing. It complicates things maybe, but all complications could be good or bad.

Or the story plot. I don't know about most of you, but Gridania's story really makes me rethink quite a few things in real life (albeit sensitive), so much more than most other MMORPGs could. Somehow most other MMORPG doesn't really tell me much, unless I read out extensively on its lores (usually in other medium), and usually they will just be stories, there isn't much controversies.
Atop that, they gave Gridania's NPCs a theme. Almost whenever every single NPCs in Gridania speaks, they spoke of the twelves and such, and you get reminded of their cultures. It is like giving a place an accent you can't hear. You get to see how their cultures have an impact to different people, to adults and to children and to different individual.

I know this does not applies to everyone, but I felt that the script was really well written.

I think I get what Kace means. Well, maybe Square is too into JRPG or what not. Like the whole reputation thing in WOW, affecting how you might get discount and such. There is actually a reward. To me, immersion is a well written storyline that I can believe in, and think about. That is the difference we are looking at. However, I do agree that it would definitely be interesting should there be more indications of reward.

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These things are fundamentally flawed to me because development time would not improve them, especially given that these things were vocalized (sans the action bar) by beta testers early on.
I believe just because they didn't fixed it then, doesn't mean those cannot be fixed. (The action bar layout would be interesting.) However those aren't the fundamentals I talked about. Mostly, what you mentioned are merely user interfaces, user interfaces are more of an exterior development than a foundation. I mentioned that, I also mentioned everyone knew that, what else?

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What is the difference between speed leveling to cap in 30 days and slowly leveling to cap in 90 days in this game?
That you spend more time exploring a lvl 10 area, instead of just doing what you are supposed to do and run off, probably never to go there again if not for the fact that it is right outside your city? Or actually taking the time to talk to others, to generate community, rather than rush all the way up and talk later, and you probably only be talking to high-levels? I don't know? Could be really a **** lot of things.

And guys, I know about the lack of content, they will add on it. Maybe that is why everyone says it is a rushed release. Can we try going beyond that?
#42 Nov 12 2010 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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No, this isn't a complain thread, nor a suggestion thread. This is talking about what XIV has, that most users don't see, or if one does see, where would another disagree? Everyone talks about its potential, but what is the potential everyone talks about? Where is the evidence? Where is the backing? That is the discussion.


lol, every FFXIV thread is a complaint thread. As for this talk about potential and changing the genre and such, it might be insightful for you to read the post I just made on game psychology here: http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1289527799142719318#msg128956239916134826

It kind of goes over why XIV is a failure to many but a success to some.

Other than that, I have to confess that your posts seem kind of like babble to me. Is English not your first language? And right-wing theory? Where are you getting this from? If you're trying to draw some parallel to politics, in the U.S. the right wing refers to conservative, whereas the left-wing is the progressive wing. Seems totally backwards, if not nonsensical.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 Nov 12 2010 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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No, English isn't my first language.

Well, if I ain't right, there is Right Wing Politics. If anything, the term "Right and Left" does somewhat originate from politics.

However, usually it just meant Right are all those who support how things are.
Leftists are those who suggest who things could be.

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 7:27am by AstraiosVindr
#44 Nov 12 2010 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Ah ok, sorry about that.

One of the things that confused me was you said this:
Quote:
I mean XIV overthrowing the modern and current MMORPG ideals, or referred as the Right-Wing Theory.


Which if anything sounded backwards. But now you're saying this:
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However, usually it just meant Right are all those who support how things are.
Leftists are those who suggest who things could be.


Which is correct. But I wasn't sure if you were making a reference to politics in the first place.

I dunno, I have plenty to say about where the genre should head, and have even worked on MMO concepts of my own. But I don't think the industry's going to change as much as it needs to if it's going to take off. If anything, this is just more evidence that the people who make the games don't really know how to make good games. They have some ideas and they try them and see what works.

I don't know what kind of people typically make the decisions about gameplay features and mechanics, but their work is generally very amateurish. I assume it has little to do with the programmers' abilities to program, at least.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Nov 12 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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It is alright.

I guess most games lacked the right kind of expertise. Even today, most game designers come from programming or artistic background. Even design trained students may have a lack of understanding in most things. If I could, I suggest putting economic professionals in design teams.

When most game developers start hiring scriptwriters to write stories for their lores, most scriptwriters have no idea how their stories can implement into the interactive elements of games. However things are now improving. I believe that in the near future, they will start hiring all forms of experts for different genres.

Especially MMORPGs could have social science experts.
#46 Nov 12 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm extremely confident that someone with a strong knowledge of game/leisure psychology could more than carry their weight on a development team. ****, that'd probably be my dream job, but basically the position just doesn't exist. I don't know about economic professionals, though. Business is an applied psychology, but the business people I've met have had a hard time getting past the money and really analyzing the quality of their services and product. Applying business models to the development process often seems to result in bad investment decisions, particularly in a career where you already have people who are passionate about their product/service. You end up with people who are more concerned with the bottom line trying to innovate things that they're just not knowledgeable enough about, and the workers will often appease them because they're in a position of authority.

I'm pretty sure SE uses professional writers for their scenarios, though. At least they're generally of a professional quality. I'm probably a much better writer than most people who go into the fields common to game design, but I think the writing in XIV is well above something I could do.

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 5:02am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Nov 12 2010 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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451 posts
AstraiosVindr wrote:
It is alright.

I guess most games lacked the right kind of expertise. Even today, most game designers come from programming or artistic background. Even design trained students may have a lack of understanding in most things. If I could, I suggest putting economic professionals in design teams.

When most game developers start hiring scriptwriters to write stories for their lores, most scriptwriters have no idea how their stories can implement into the interactive elements of games. However things are now improving. I believe that in the near future, they will start hiring all forms of experts for different genres.

Especially MMORPGs could have social science experts.


"The Macintosh turned out so well because the people working on it were musicians, artists, poets and historians who also happened to be excellent computer scientists." Steve Jobs - New York Times

You kind of reminded me of that.
#48 Nov 12 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Doesn't exist now~

Well, if I never remember wrongly, Economics should be classified under social science. While most associate them to businesses, there are economics analysts which comprise of say: politics, crime, law, education, etc. If I may add, "Freakonomics" is a good read.

I do acknowledge that Professional writers are already around in the industry. I am just stating that when they first came out, most have no idea how to fully incorporate their skills with a relatively new experience (writing for an interactive element). Which through time, improved.

If that was be possible, certainly other professions could turn as well. Of course, being possibly harder.
#49 Nov 12 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, economics is a social science. I don't know, I could see that being useful in designing an in-game economy. I just wouldn't necessarily want too much other influence on the product, but I guess I'm talking out of my *** a bit.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Nov 12 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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305 posts
Quote:
I believe just because they didn't fixed it then, doesn't mean those cannot be fixed. (The action bar layout would be interesting.) However those aren't the fundamentals I talked about. Mostly, what you mentioned are merely user interfaces, user interfaces are more of an exterior development than a foundation. I mentioned that, I also mentioned everyone knew that, what else?


You asked me what I thought was fundamentally wrong.

Quote:
That you spend more time exploring a lvl 10 area, instead of just doing what you are supposed to do and run off, probably never to go there again if not for the fact that it is right outside your city? Or actually taking the time to talk to others, to generate community, rather than rush all the way up and talk later, and you probably only be talking to high-levels? I don't know? Could be really a **** lot of things.


I disagree. You can talk to people as you speed level, nothing is stopping you from doing that. You can generate community as well, i know alot of people who make friends with other speed levels in various games. They can also travel back and help lower levels, which alot of them do as well.

But again, that is a social aspect. That is always 100% on the player, not the game.

The game experience however, is absolutely no different in a speed leveler compared to a slow leveler. They do the same content. Experience the same story. See the same scenery (though again, their appreciation of it is on the player and the player alone).One person does it over 10 days, the other over 100 days. Nothing changes. If you have a quiet power leveler, they will form the same social bonds as a quiet slow leveler. If you have a social power leveler, they will make the same social bonds as a social slow leveler.


Quote:

And guys, I know about the lack of content, they will add on it. Maybe that is why everyone says it is a rushed release. Can we try going beyond that?


That i agree with. The thing is, i can understand not having content for end game at release - that is completely acceptable to me. Having no mid / low level content however is not understandable or acceptable, to me.

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 9:02am by KacesofCaitsith
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#51 Nov 12 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
9 posts
you lost me at "Or"
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