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XIV could be the Coup d'etat we were waiting forFollow

#52 Nov 12 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I would much rather get thrown into a giant world in hempen rags and have a single intro quest to get me started then to have a quest npc every five feet with a glowing ring over their head.


This. It's not a fun a game if it plays you.
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#53 Nov 12 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Kachi wrote:
I was really hoping they would get innovative and let us do controller combos. e.g., set ability 1 to Up + X, ability 2 to Down + X, etc. This way you could even play it almost like an action game if you wanted to.




This would also be awesome.

I have to say - I was always a keyboard and mouse player before but I've really gotten addicted to using the controller. AND - moving with wasd hurts my tendons. I'm apparently officially getting old.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#54 Nov 12 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, that would have been a really nice thing about controller combos. Even using ergonomic stuff, I find mouse and keyboard really uncomfortable. I'm really hoping there are some good integrated keyboard/controller combos for the PS3 release, but I'm not optimistic. They have those little pads where you type with your thumbs, but those don't look much better.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#55 Nov 12 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,010 posts
KaneKitty wrote:

Olorinus wrote:
wrote
I would much rather get thrown into a giant world in hempen rags and have a single intro quest to get me started then to have a quest npc every five feet with a glowing ring over their head.



This. It's not a fun a game if it plays you.
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Ok I'll grant you that, but the flip side to being tossed into a world in nothing but hempen rags is that the only thing to look forward to is grinding out levels. Most people would agree that this in itself is generally boring - its only saving grace being that you get to grind levels with other interesting people in a party (well, unless you get into one of "those" parties....).

It's a good idea in theory, but it makes for a rather empty experience overall since so much of it is dependent on the community in general rather than the game in particular. Lots of people are reporting empty linkshells - frankly mine is one of them with most of our officers and members now riding out the next two months on offline titles (or back in XI) to "See what happens".

Content is king. It's true in radio, it's true in television, and it's true in games as well.
#56 Nov 12 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I think there definitely needs to be more side quests - but I prefer the XI model where people don't have glowing things over their heads. I remember actually talking to all npcs in XI to see if they would give me quests when I first got to a new city. TBH I haven't really talked to an NPC other than leve npc or merchant for ages - which is sad.

I really want quests like the Star Onion Brigade chain - with cut-scenes and stuff that give the characters life.

I also want titles like in XI. There is a lot I miss about XI but I can't bear to re-roll (again).

If XI was on crysta already and I still had my character I would probably still be playing that. That said - since that isn't possible I am in FFXIV... and sure people can suggest other games but I don't like playing games where I have to roll a new character to change jobs. For me I just can't stand it.

And I love the XIV job system. I think it will be a lot of fun to build your own roster of skills in the upper tier of levels. (as it is already fun to do so)

So yeah TL;DR version: I miss a lot of features that are in XI and missing in XIV but I have a lot of hope for XIV and like the job system.

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 12:09pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#57 Nov 12 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
And I love the XIV job system. I think it will be a lot of fun to build your own roster of skills in the upper tier of levels.

So yeah TL;DR version: I miss a lot of features that are in XI and missing in XIV but I have a lot of hope for XIV and like the job system.


I think that this is one area where you and I agree - missing a lot of things from XI.

However, from our experience in XI you and I both know that eventually the "optimal" skills for each job will be determined by the number crunchers, and we will have standard builds just like we did in XI. It's sad, but I can see it coming.

I hate number crunchers :)



#58 Nov 12 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
And I love the XIV job system. I think it will be a lot of fun to build your own roster of skills in the upper tier of levels.

So yeah TL;DR version: I miss a lot of features that are in XI and missing in XIV but I have a lot of hope for XIV and like the job system.


I think that this is one area where you and I agree - missing a lot of things from XI.

However, from our experience in XI you and I both know that eventually the "optimal" skills for each job will be determined by the number crunchers, and we will have standard builds just like we did in XI. It's sad, but I can see it coming.

I hate number crunchers :)



Me too! That said I will just do like I did in XI (BLU/WHM)and give the finger to the number crunchers and play how I want. I have no illusions about being an uber player but I am fun to hang around with and I am usually pretty knowledgeable (I happen to have one of those memories which just absorbs information) so I get by with my friends.

I am not very concerned about being perfect. That said for specific circumstances I would be pretty happy to set my bar in a way that makes sure a battle goes well.



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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#59 Nov 12 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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AstraiosVindr wrote:
No, this isn't a complain thread, nor a suggestion thread. This is talking about what XIV has, that most users don't see, or if one does see, where would another disagree? Everyone talks about its potential, but what is the potential everyone talks about? Where is the evidence? Where is the backing? That is the discussion.

No it isn't Coup de Grace. Maybe cause there is no swift end to anything.
I don't mean Coup d'etat as XIV amounting a mutiny in square. Why would anything suggest I meant that?
Sometimes we don't take things in its literal meanings, it is a figurative language.




I meant Coup de Grace as a subtle jab as in, "Put the game out of its misery." Now that's ironic.

As far as your other points, they don't make sense as others have already pointed out.

I don't see how this game is going to "overthrow" any conventions of the MMO genre. Especially when FFXI, containing the very elements you've mentioned, was already made.

I see potential as I stated, because the game is made by a company that I once respected and trusted to make good games, in addition to the fact that they have made an MMO that I liked. No more, no less.

Bluntly I think, although admirable (especially for someone whose primary language isn't English) your argument falls very flat.

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 3:47pm by Kierk
#60 Nov 12 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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284 posts
Goodness where to begin lol.

This thread is meaty and a change of pace. Lots of different views being thrown around.

Well, I have to say Im enjoying myself with only a few nagging negatives.

First is the R 0 during leves. Proposed solution would be to keep the clock ticking and that way when we log back in its still active minus the time it took to get back on. Annoying still but hey atleast gives a chance to salvage.

The Rest....

Content... I know its coming but consider this.

What if instead of getting all jobs to 20 to join guilds and get class quests, you simply only needed to get one class to 20.

Boom instant content hehe. Now players would be able to visit all guilds and join securing a npc linkpearl. That way when you get those random guild marks for jobs you dont have lvld you could still purchase crystals or skills even if couldnt use them.

Now all of a sudden you have a reason to lvl said class.

Botanist for example has a ton of abilities that are lvl 1. Must I grind it to 20 simply to use abilities that are now 19 lvls overdue?

Now I realize that SE is going to adjust the SP it takes to get to R 20. That may take care of what I mentioned above.

Also since we dont get guildmarks by they thousands without exchanging for bonus shouldnt they lower some of the prices?

Also I have so many questions on the effect that purchasing Training for DoH classes. Say like fletchery for instance. We can make fletch from feathers w/o the training. So purchasing the Fletchery training manual for a craft does it yield higher results?

So in closing imagine having all guild mark abilities for each class purchased and now you feel accomplished and spent tons of time doing so now what?

Do something else? Correct!!!! I think overall yeah SE had high ambition and poor execution thus far, however, most of the things they fell short on are being addressed.

We will all know soon enough as it can only be either early next week or the week of Thanksgiving that we get our first beloved version update that begins to "restore the trust".
#61 Nov 12 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
It seems to me that the "open world" model works best in a Bethesda-style implementation. That is to say, the world is wide open, the player can do whatever it is he or she would like - but there must be something in these places to make it interesting. The world must be open, and full, either one by itself does not make for interesting game play from my experience.

The part I find most frustrating is that the FFXIV world is immense, but there is nothing to do with it at this point aside from explore for the sake of exploration. There is right now very little incentive to go outside of the lines, so to speak. If, for instance, there is a special npc, town, or quest at the end of the tunnel that I ran across during my adventures, then that would help.

The outlines of the world have been drawn, but very few of the colors have been added to the picture. I think that once the world is filled in more, then we could very well get an experience similar to what the OP is discussing.
#62 Nov 12 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I leveled Conj from rank 1-20 in level 40's plate gear, went smooth and looked real silly.
#63 Nov 13 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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@Kierk:
Quote:
I don't see how this game is going to "overthrow" any conventions of the MMO genre. Especially when FFXI, containing the very elements you've mentioned, was already made.


Most elements yes. If any, FFXIV is supposed to be improved from FFXI.
If we notice, FFXI existed in 2002. A time when MMORPGs were still growing with a relatively young market (in comparison to other genre). After which, thanks to the introduction of WOW, the industry had grew into a very different beast. MMORPGs begun to follow a very linear way of design.

Yes, they have tons of interesting novelties, say: flying, building houses, crazy customizations. However, to me, those are merely gimmicks, as much as they interest me well.

I am looking more into the core of a game. Like economics.
Or them fulfilling moral questions: Square's attempt to encourage casual gaming.
When FFXI first appeared, they tried to encourage inter-nation relationship by allowing Japanese and Americans to play together, unlike most MMORPGs following the region-based servers. It was controversial.
Most games to date have very few support from adults because youngsters are too immerse in hardcore gaming. Of course many will retort that playing less FFXIV doesn't mean they can't play other games later. However, it is a start. I love the pace. I love it when FFXIV tells me if you play somemore, you will be wasting time, take a look in reality for a moment now.

That is just one of the many things to rethink the future of MMORPGs. If I am not wrong, I mentioned that I did not mean future games will follow FFXIV's model, or that FFXIV will become the next MMORPG giant taking over WOW. I meant Coup d'etat where if it succeed, will hopefully encourage future MMORPGs developers to rethink possibilities, instead of re-working on a tried-and-tested model.

I don't think my argument falls flat. I don't even think I am arguing about anything. I am not even saying XIV is a coup, yet. I am just saying it COULD BE.

Quote:
I see potential as I stated, because the game is made by a company that I once respected and trusted to make good games, in addition to the fact that they have made an MMO that I liked. No more, no less.


If that is how you measure potential. Then I am sorry, we are looking at different things.

In addition, I don't see how you guys keep complaining about community. Communities take time to build. If you want a strong community, look at it some half a year later.

@Kace:
Quote:
You asked me what I thought was fundamentally wrong.

Well... I don't think User Interfaces are considered fundamentals. Even if I were to allow it to be, I already mentioned that they failed in User Interfaces. I am asking what else?
I meant fundamentals as in 'underlying'. Something that you strip away all that graphics, gimmicks and things that could be changed. Leaving just mere numbers and ideas and directions.

Quote:
I disagree. You can talk to people as you speed level, nothing is stopping you from doing that. You can generate community as well, i know alot of people who make friends with other speed levels in various games. They can also travel back and help lower levels, which alot of them do as well.

You are right. Everything depends on individual.
What I am just saying is that XIV, at least to me, seems to encourage (or force) people to take time and enjoy things around. As much as some people won't regard that as enjoying. There is many way you can play a game. Rush to the end and enjoy, or enjoy the process to the end. Yes, it is 100% players, but I have to give credit to XIV for trying to rethink if there is a possibility to encourage players to slow their leveling process.

And no, rushing to the end is very different. They may play the same content, but the experiences can be very different. On top of that, what if your friends are hardcore and yourself are casual. As much as they love helping you to level to theirs, the casual gamer no doubt feel himself dragging his team down. That is many reason why people dislike racing to the end. Perhaps it reminds them of the rat-race in reality, or they have many other commitment in real life.

quote]That i agree with. The thing is, i can understand not having content for end game at release - that is completely acceptable to me. Having no mid / low level content however is not understandable or acceptable, to me.[/quote] I know it is unacceptable for you and for tons of other people. Which is why I mentioned that it is a rushed release hoping that others have no need to emphasis on that again...

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leomike35 wrote:
I think overall yeah SE had high ambition and poor execution thus far, however, most of the things they fell short on are being addressed.

Lezale wrote:
The outlines of the world have been drawn, but very few of the colors have been added to the picture. I think that once the world is filled in more, then we could very well get an experience similar to what the OP is discussing.

Yes. That is what I am trying to say. We all know where SE had failed. However, I am discussing about the potential with what they already have. Not lamenting on the fact that it made mistake, but looking at what they did right thus far.
#64 Nov 13 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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AstraiosVindr wrote:


Most elements yes. If any, FFXIV is supposed to be improved from FFXI.
If we notice, FFXI existed in 2002. A time when MMORPGs were still growing with a relatively young market (in comparison to other genre). After which, thanks to the introduction of WOW, the industry had grew into a very different beast. MMORPGs begun to follow a very linear way of design.

Yes, they have tons of interesting novelties, say: flying, building houses, crazy customizations. However, to me, those are merely gimmicks, as much as they interest me well.

I am looking more into the core of a game. Like economics.
Or them fulfilling moral questions: Square's attempt to encourage casual gaming.
When FFXI first appeared, they tried to encourage inter-nation relationship by allowing Japanese and Americans to play together, unlike most MMORPGs following the region-based servers. It was controversial.
Most games to date have very few support from adults because youngsters are too immerse in hardcore gaming. Of course many will retort that playing less FFXIV doesn't mean they can't play other games later. However, it is a start. I love the pace. I love it when FFXIV tells me if you play somemore, you will be wasting time, take a look in reality for a moment now.

That is just one of the many things to rethink the future of MMORPGs. If I am not wrong, I mentioned that I did not mean future games will follow FFXIV's model, or that FFXIV will become the next MMORPG giant taking over WOW. I meant Coup d'etat where if it succeed, will hopefully encourage future MMORPGs developers to rethink possibilities, instead of re-working on a tried-and-tested model.

I don't think my argument falls flat. I don't even think I am arguing about anything. I am not even saying XIV is a coup, yet. I am just saying it COULD BE.


I think I understand now what you're saying but I think the premises are still flawed. It's a lot more indirect than you think; and I don't think any company is looking at SE nor will they for inspiration at least when it comes to FFXIV.

I touched on (my very first post in this thread) on how the economy with retainers and casual/hardcore play styles will be very hard to pull off.

I think it's important to realize SE's intention. I think that perhaps SE DID try to do something revolutionary with retainers/crafting; however basic economics dictates that retainers ARE AHs but with us doing most of the work. And so goes with crafting. This contradicts the casual aspect. So in the end I could care less about SE influencing someone else or doing something new. If that idea falls flat, it falls flat.

In general, video game companies are going to want to make money. Most companies aren't trying to do something new. And if SE wants to shake things up and change the direction of the MMO they CAN'T NOT listen to the community while at the same time make the community happy. Or they can and be very lucky. This is another problem with your use of Coup.

SE can't afford NOT to listen to its subscribers, people are going to want certain things if the game is going to be popular. I can be frick'n Che Guevara but if no one follows me then I'm just some nut job spouting off that we should overthrow the government.

It seems as though SE brought a knife to the gunfight that was your revolution.

If you want to see a revolution or at the very least evolution in MMOs, Guild Wars 2 looks promising. They even have a "Manifesto." It might end up being a flash in the pan, but GW2 intention falls a lot more in line with what I think you're trying to say.
#65 Nov 13 2010 at 4:20 AM Rating: Default
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It really makes you wonder how long will it take SE to fold to the WoW QQ force. TBH I would rather have my game to do without the die in the fire types. Spare me the agony of one of the worst mmo communities to date.

Edited, Nov 13th 2010 5:22am by Spyrit178
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#66 Nov 13 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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Kierk wrote:
If you want to see a revolution or at the very least evolution in MMOs, Guild Wars 2 looks promising. They even have a "Manifesto." It might end up being a flash in the pan, but GW2 intention falls a lot more in line with what I think you're trying to say.


Looks promising. FFXIV looked promising as well. Maybe GW2 falls more in line, but that did be something for me to witness later on.

Anyway, one can hardly associate video games as "using a knife in a gunfight". Many gamers like the way how things were. Of course naturally there must be some other novelty factors to it. But, I am not arguing that. I am just explaining that XIV dares to be different after almost all MMORPGs conformed into a standard model. Which existed after XI, so obviously I ain't putting XI into the picture.

For the very last time, I never said that companies will be looking into XIV now. There is where I am looking at, that should FFXIV fixed its problems and becomes widely popular, someone might just said: Hey, their ideas worked, maybe we should reinvent ours!

I understand combining casual and hardcore players will be very hard to pull off. That is where Square tries to be different. Above that, I believe that the market will go a long way as it mature overtime. A young market is hardly an indication of anything. In my opinion their idea of Crafts and Optimal Rank design can ****** or even prevent most MMORPGs problems, first and foremost: inflation.

And I don't see how retainers are related to the market in anyway except that players don't have to leave their computer on 24hrs, which might probably promote casual gamers to participate more in the trade. But AH already covers that.

Yes, in general everyone wants to make money. Most aren't trying something new. Thats what I am talking about! If FFXIV succeed, people will look her way.

Yes, Square MUST listen to its customers and must value their thoughts highly. I don't see how I disagree with that.
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