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Why I am still playingFollow

#1 Nov 11 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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I know there is a metric ton of threads going on about why people need to like/hate this game. Just in the midst I wanted to throw out why me and a few of my rl friends are still plugging away with all the faults in this game.

First I just want it known that I HATE the grind, more than my ex-wife, yeah I am that serious. I understand the purpose of teaching someone the job they need to be doing but months straight on beating on crabs didn't make me any better back in the day. I like playing these types of games for the challenge, which I look at as mainly end game. Granted as you are leveling there is cool quests and things that are a challenge that make us not kill our families in frustration but it all boils down to the first time you take down a NM or low man a god or something like that.

The way I look at it is I know that type of game play will come eventually, not soon enough I am sure. But I am slowly building up my character so that when that type of level comes around I can enjoy it. If I could I would love to have a game that you are max level and then just kind of tweaked your character with endgame content, to me that would be perfect. Just keep me a running list of critters I don't have to sit around every 18 hours hoping to get the claim for the .3% chance of a drop and I am happy. Just keep me challenged with the next highest bad boy and let me strive to get the best gear.

The part I don't get about most of the people bailing is that in 6-8 months most of you will be coming back after everything starts to take form but then you will be the low level guy trying to cram as many levels in as you can to get to that point. The way I figure it is if I slowly level my guy and actually kind of sit back and enjoy the content then I have a win/win for me.

I think we all know SE will turn this into a game we will pour many hours of our lives into, love it or hate it. Most or us did with ffxi so you know what I am talking about. Laying on the couch trying desperately to get/build a party to you could push through the 60's and hating every tank/healer for not wanting to party. Lol.

Long and short is that I want to do it a bit different than I did with ffxi. I am using this learning curve to enjoy leveling my character in my FREE time and not feel like I have to level as soon as possible. I log on and do my leves and earn my Gil and level my blacksmith and armorer.

I know many won't agree with this and I understand the thought of paying for testing there game for them. All I am saying is that I for one am enjoying not having the pressure to get to the end so to speak.

Anyway, no real point. See you in the game.

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 11:10pm by Fleven Lock Thread: flames
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#2 Nov 11 2010 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Im not sure why I decided to play in the first place, thought I was done with mmorpgs but the memories of ffxi made me :) I enjoy the job system but i agree about the grind, I wish there were more levelquests and better solo sp. I guess im playing for the same reason you are, I expect by the time I reach 50 with my con/thm there will be more content and probably a level raise. I dont enoy crafting to be honest, I have level 9 botany and I find that fun with the levequests and all but I dont see myself leveling carpenter or alchemy for awhile, despite the benefits.

One of my main problems with FFXIV, besides the lag and ui issues, is the community. I havent met many people in the game so far, though I realize my experiences with FFXI, as with any mmo, are unique. It just seems less friendly to me at this point, hopefully the ps3 launch will change this as more players join. I dont blame square for this, maybe I should start a linkshell myself.. Anyways, my other complaint is with some of the maps in the game. I really enjoyed the big forest of Ronfaure and the large maps to explore but it seems like some of the areas are more straight forward. That being said my experiences are limited to Gridania and some of Coerthas.

Anyways im kind of drunk, going to hop on and get physical rank 24 before I log off for tonight :) I remain hopeful for FFXIV, im not a hardcore gamer anymore but I still find myself logging on atleast every other day. The job system is great imo, if SE puts the effort into providing new content and balancing things out I see myself continuing to play. At this point I see myself as getting a head start before the game releases on ps3 and really takes off, hope im right :)
#3 Nov 11 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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The way I look at it is I know that type of game play will come eventually, not soon enough I am sure. But I am slowly building up my character so that when that type of level comes around I can enjoy it. If I could I would love to have a game that you are max level and then just kind of tweaked your character with endgame content, to me that would be perfect. Just keep me a running list of critters I don't have to sit around every 18 hours hoping to get the claim for the .3% chance of a drop and I am happy. Just keep me challenged with the next highest bad boy and let me strive to get the best gear.

The part I don't get about most of the people bailing is that in 6-8 months most of you will be coming back after everything starts to take form but then you will be the low level guy trying to cram as many levels in as you can to get to that point.

You're debating against some weird strawman argument that you've constructed within your own mind. You "know [what] type of game play will come eventually," and have launched an attack upon players who aren't as convinced as you are. Yet, none of these problems are guaranteed to be solved. You've imagined what the game will become, and then attacked players for not wholly believing that those changes -- which you have wholly imagined -- will come into fruition in the live game.

It's great that you know what type of game play will come eventually, but the rest of us can't rely on fortune-telling and have to make our decisions on... you know... things that actually exist in the real world.
#5 Nov 11 2010 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry if I'm not getting this but...

People do not want to go out and kill 50 Spiders... however

They DO want to have someone to TELL them to go out and kill 50 spiders so they can come back, get a pat on the head, a cookie, and a "Job well done!"

It's all in how you look at it, I fight mobs that drop the items I need to craft... or that other people need to craft that I can sell. That way I get my combat SP and crafting items. If you want to make it out to be a task, then that is what it will be to you.

Some of us see this is as opportunity....

If your looking for a cookie and a pat on the head for breathing , sorry, I'm fresh out.
#6 Nov 11 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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I've got cookies. I need fire crystals and sheepskins and undyed canvases. I'll send the cookies later.

In fact, I'll give you a PC quest. Find a recipe in the database within my crafting levels ( http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/top?cicuid=1960006 )

Go out and gather the items. Bring them back to me. The reward is the item that the recipe makes.

This quest is repeatable.
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#7 Nov 12 2010 at 2:15 AM Rating: Good
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Asagiri wrote:
I'm sorry if I'm not getting this but...

People do not want to go out and kill 50 Spiders... however

They DO want to have someone to TELL them to go out and kill 50 spiders so they can come back, get a pat on the head, a cookie, and a "Job well done!"



Whereas I generally can't stand very much of that. It took less than two hours for me to quit LOTRO because of this kind of crap. I play these games to be in a vast interactive world, not to be led by the nose, step by frigging step.

"You picked up a seed!" 70 exp! HERE HAVE A CANE. HERE HAVE ANOTHER CANE.

I mean geeze - I was given two different canes within that less than two hour period. TWO.

In FFXIV I was wearing hemp rags for 17 ranks. And you know what, I would much rather have that then have everything handed to me.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#8Lonix, Posted: Nov 12 2010 at 2:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Please put your complaints in the complaint thread.
#9 Nov 12 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
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I'm playing for Fire Crystals...I NEED those things! oh, and a newly found need for earth shards but that is a whole different story.
#10 Nov 12 2010 at 3:01 AM Rating: Good
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The part I don't get about most of the people bailing is that in 6-8 months most of you will be coming back after everything starts to take form but then you will be the low level guy trying to cram as many levels in as you can to get to that point. The way I figure it is if I slowly level my guy and actually kind of sit back and enjoy the content then I have a win/win for me.

I think we all know SE will turn this into a game we will pour many hours of our lives into, love it or hate it. Most or us did with ffxi so you know what I am talking about.


It's pretty clear from your post that you're extrinsically motivated to play this game. You don't enjoy the game in and of itself, but you think good things will come if you play it.

My advice to you is that you find something else to play that you actually enjoy, something that is intrinsically motivating, rather than something you don't like but play for the occasionally rewarding feeling (or anticipated rewarding feeling). People do extrinsically motivated things all the time... there's nothing wrong with that. For many of us, it's necessary to keep us going to work, keeping up with our health, etc. But leisure activities should be activities that you enjoy all on their own.

So as for coming back to the game several months from now as a low level, here's the thing. The game will recover and flourish, and with that there will be plenty of people to party with, or the game will continue to die, and there won't. If it recovers, it will be because of many fixes to the design, and the process of leveling won't be so laborious and painful. It will actually resemble a leisure activity. If it dies, and at this point one can only gamble that it won't, then I'd only be wasting my time on a future that will never come.

As for the question, "Why am I still playing?" there are a number of potential psychological answers. My guess would be that you're very extrinsically motivated to play the game, and again, the problem with that is that it creates a lot of opportunity for disappointment, and is not genuinely a leisure activity (i.e., "leisure" means you're having fun, not hoping you will have fun later). Some people continue to play because they identify with the SE brand. When identity is strong, it literally becomes a part of who you see yourself as. This is also a form of extrinsic motivation (it's on the same continuum, but not as far down as the other kind). At least subconsciously, you begin to think, "I'm the kind of person who does these things (or in this case, plays SE games). This is who I am." And if you don't do those things, it can produce cognitive dissonance (you begin to experience doubts and think that you might be wrong.) For some people, avoiding that dissonance and maintaining their identity is enough to keep them playing.

There's also buyer's remorse avoidance, where what is basically a fear of wasting money or making a bad decision causes one to rationalize that purchase or decision. "Oh, I didn't make a bad purchase... this is what I wanted."

Just a little psychology lesson for ya.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Nov 12 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
The part I don't get about most of the people bailing is that in 6-8 months most of you will be coming back after everything starts to take form but then you will be the low level guy trying to cram as many levels in as you can to get to that point. The way I figure it is if I slowly level my guy and actually kind of sit back and enjoy the content then I have a win/win for me.

I think we all know SE will turn this into a game we will pour many hours of our lives into, love it or hate it. Most or us did with ffxi so you know what I am talking about.


It's pretty clear from your post that you're extrinsically motivated to play this game. You don't enjoy the game in and of itself, but you think good things will come if you play it.

My advice to you is that you find something else to play that you actually enjoy, something that is intrinsically motivating, rather than something you don't like but play for the occasionally rewarding feeling (or anticipated rewarding feeling). People do extrinsically motivated things all the time... there's nothing wrong with that. For many of us, it's necessary to keep us going to work, keeping up with our health, etc. But leisure activities should be activities that you enjoy all on their own.

So as for coming back to the game several months from now as a low level, here's the thing. The game will recover and flourish, and with that there will be plenty of people to party with, or the game will continue to die, and there won't. If it recovers, it will be because of many fixes to the design, and the process of leveling won't be so laborious and painful. It will actually resemble a leisure activity. If it dies, and at this point one can only gamble that it won't, then I'd only be wasting my time on a future that will never come.

As for the question, "Why am I still playing?" there are a number of potential psychological answers. My guess would be that you're very extrinsically motivated to play the game, and again, the problem with that is that it creates a lot of opportunity for disappointment, and is not genuinely a leisure activity (i.e., "leisure" means you're having fun, not hoping you will have fun later). Some people continue to play because they identify with the SE brand. When identity is strong, it literally becomes a part of who you see yourself as. This is also a form of extrinsic motivation (it's on the same continuum, but not as far down as the other kind). At least subconsciously, you begin to think, "I'm the kind of person who does these things (or in this case, plays SE games). This is who I am." And if you don't do those things, it can produce cognitive dissonance (you begin to experience doubts and think that you might be wrong.) For some people, avoiding that dissonance and maintaining their identity is enough to keep them playing.

There's also buyer's remorse avoidance, where what is basically a fear of wasting money or making a bad decision causes one to rationalize that purchase or decision. "Oh, I didn't make a bad purchase... this is what I wanted."

Just a little psychology lesson for ya.


**** .. are you a psychology major? I am taking psych 101 right now.. almost done with the semester.. and I only know like 75% of what you just said without goggling O.O.. Cognitive dissonance also applies to people who are about to quit but still continues to play.. they already dropped 50+ dollars on the game.. and are now justifying the massive waste of money by continuing to play the game that they don't like..
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WoW: we want to give players a more fun time with less grinding and generic quests
GW2: we want the player to feel like they are leveling while doing something fun
Final Fantasy XIV: we want less fun and more grinding
#12 Nov 12 2010 at 3:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Right, pretty much any kind of rationalization can be classified as cognitive dissonance. It's really just the explanation that differs, and it usually involves a different motivational or emotional explanation.

I'm not a psychology major per se, but health and leisure psychology are the emphases of my doctorate degree, so I learn a lot about it. Unfortunately I don't get to take as many counseling/neuroscience courses as I would like in light of all the health/sociology/education courses I have to take, so most of my background is in developmental, educational and motivational psychology.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#13 Nov 12 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Asagiri wrote:
I'm sorry if I'm not getting this but...

People do not want to go out and kill 50 Spiders... however

They DO want to have someone to TELL them to go out and kill 50 spiders so they can come back, get a pat on the head, a cookie, and a "Job well done!"



Whereas I generally can't stand very much of that. It took less than two hours for me to quit LOTRO because of this kind of crap. I play these games to be in a vast interactive world, not to be led by the nose, step by frigging step.

"You picked up a seed!" 70 exp! HERE HAVE A CANE. HERE HAVE ANOTHER CANE.

I mean geeze - I was given two different canes within that less than two hour period. TWO.

In FFXIV I was wearing hemp rags for 17 ranks. And you know what, I would much rather have that then have everything handed to me.


Not to derail too much but I've started to play LOTRO for a bit and "quit" because it's just too formulaic albeit solid.

I don't care for the mechanic you mention in those terms, BUT I do like the pacing it provides and the "linear" exploration it also provides. I'd prefer to get armor through earning money to purchase it or obtaining it through mob drops.

I like being told, "Here take this magical twig to Magician Bob over in Vverviotverland."

Rather than having to take a bunch of earrings to a dead aetheryte camp in the middle of nowhere.

It gives me a sense of space, progression and forced motivation.

On another point...

I think Kachi brings up some interesting points and leads me to why I play MMOs in general.

I do think I identify with the SE/FF brand and want to see it succeed. I'm not playing FFXIV now because I don't find it fun in any respect, however I did find FFXI extremely "carrot-on-a-stick" motivating. Which leads me to...

the fact that I'm getting hung up on the intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.

Personally I think most if not all MMOs, heck even games in general are reliant mostly or "crutched" mostly by external motivators, I guess barring FPS, where skill and the justification of that skill would be motivation enough to keep playing; those games are, at least to me, the most "fun."

WoW was kinda fun because PvP and the possibility of being ganked would call upon that skill.

So I guess my question(s) to Kachi would be, wouldn't calling on skill be vital to enjoyment and wouldn't (as I think you suggest) intrinsic motivation be best? And if that's the case, then it's no wonder (given my example) in part why a game like WoW is popular and why FFXIV has a lot to learn?

Sorry for the derail. It's almost 2am here and my brain works better at night for these sorts of things, conveniently when it's also at its sleepy-est.
#14 Nov 12 2010 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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The intrinsic motivating factor to WoW is that moving around the world is fun. Literally, I mean moving your character around the world, and using abilities, it feels very nice. Its quite "crisp". To run around a cartoon world, to dive into lakes, and to run around hills and jump off them, and to run around kiting 3-4 mobs at once while your pet tanks another, etc.

That is the secret to WoW's success, not the quests, nothing else, really, its the very very basics. It controls well. Its the same reason Mario was a great game, Nintendo also gets this IMO, and Super Mario Galaxy is a great example. Controlling your avatar very smoothly and crisply is fun in and of itself, aka intrinsic motivation.

WoW piles on the extrinsic motivation with gear treadmills, which I don't much care for. Whenever I play it I have the most fun running around, and also PvP, as you mentioned. PvP can be fun in and of itself, although sometimes they mess it up.

SE hasn't had as much practice because they usually make turn based games which operate differently. As a result I feel FFXIV suffered.
#15 Nov 12 2010 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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You guys make me laugh, if some one says they are enjoying the game its "Your Fake, Your not enjoying it, Your just pretending" rubbish. That's like telling some one they don't actually like some one when they say they do or love for that matter.
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#16 Nov 12 2010 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
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Asagiri wrote:
I'm sorry if I'm not getting this but...

People do not want to go out and kill 50 Spiders... however

They DO want to have someone to TELL them to go out and kill 50 spiders so they can come back, get a pat on the head, a cookie, and a "Job well done!"


People want to kill the 50 spiders for the opportunity to eventually do something more. The grind is boring but its a means to an end in most games. In most mmorpgs, if you grind 50 spides, you might gain a level and then get access to a new dungeon. IE RFC at lvl 14, WC at lvl 18, SFK at lvl 24. So on So on. Eventually, being able to team up with 5-x players to take on a mega-boss for a chance for some really good loot. With new bosses coming out every x often.

The problem with FFXIV is that all the people who have reached 50 are now going ...uhh....ohhk so we made it. And now we ____? Start the grind again with a new class! AWESOME! (/sarcasim).

I find it hard to believe the there's about a total of 6 story quests and 4 class quests from level 1 to 50. Of course, there are 0 traditional dungeons/instances between level 1 to 50 which is extremely disappointing and the first time I've seen that in any mmorpg over the eight I've played.

Really, it leaves you with the feeling like there's nothing to do and no reason to grind? I've killed rabbits/hares at lvl 1....and killed them at lvl 20-30. Really, its a bit silly when your killing the same-mob with the same-animations just tougher over a period of 30 levels. At least making new models would be less insulting. What happens if I level up another 10 ranks? Tougher rabbits again? AWESOME.

We really need motivation to level our characters imo. The grind is something we do to get to the fun-parts in most mmorpgs. This mmorpg has all the grind but none of the fun-parts. Combat doesn't feel epic.

Really, its mostly 'go kill a lady bug that's sitting in the middle of the forest mindings its own business happily living out its live. Its imparative you kill this non-aggressive lady bug or else it'll continue to mind its own business and live out the rest of its life walking back/forth doing its forest-thing'. There's no 'challenge' in that or 'reason' behind why we are killing the lady-bug. It doesn't feel epic when the lady bug dies. It ironically, also feels less epic when it takes 6-7 fully grown men to team up to kill 1 lady bug 1/8th our size and 2-3 minutes. (Ie a large-group grinding for better sp).

Most other mmorpgs have the quest-storyline/quest-plot to give players a motivation why we are killing the mobs.

Lotro - Protecting our family, friends, loved-ones from the orcish-horde that threatens war/death/enslavement.
Wow - Similar except bad or good guys. Often killing bandits who have stolen our supplies, retreiving cargo stolen by raptors, taking out mercenaries along a shoreline to safeguard ratchet, etc. Note the reasoning.
AoC/DDO/EQ1/other games all gave us 'reasons'. I strongly miss the 'reasons' to level.

FFXIV is this purposeless void without the quests, Asagiri. That's why every other mmorpg has these things. A story to drive us to kill the 50 spiders, the feeling we'll be able to do a new instance after killing the 50 spiders or the feeling that once we reach max level there will be more dungeons/bosses/stuff to do. FFXIV lacks all 3 and desperately needs all three. I hope that helps clear this up Asagiri.
#17 Nov 12 2010 at 5:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lonix wrote:
You guys make me laugh, if some one says they are enjoying the game its "Your Fake, Your not enjoying it, Your just pretending" rubbish. That's like telling some one they don't actually like some one when they say they do or love for that matter.


That's an interesting analogy you use Lonix. With your choice of calling it rubbish when someone says they are not enjoying themselves, just prending etc and comparing it to love.

Sometimes, after a man or woman falls out of love with their partner, they can continue to say back 'I love you' for a number of reasons including: Fear of being alone, not wanting to hurt the other person's feelings, fear of if the relationship ends badly, you won't be able to be friends with that person anymore or even financial incentives. Prime example: I love you Bill Gates and that's why I a former french super model named Melinda am marrying you and not your money. Just kidding, it could be true love.

There are also those who say they love you out of obligation. A young child might find it hard to not say 'I love you' back to his mother even if he/she doesn't understand what love is because its expected of him. Sometimes people will flat out lie when saying I love you. Ie a Senior at prom trying to 'solidify' his chances of copulation by stating his feelings for his date are stronger than they may actually be. "Of course, I love you! Now let's go to the hotel".

In these cases, sometimes people are not consciously aware of what they are doing. They say they love it out of obligation. IE. 'I spent $2000.00 on a new computer! $80.00 on a CE edition and told all my friends that this game was going to be aweeesome. I can't go back on my word now and say I'm not having fun or it would be like I wasted a lot of money. I'd look like a fool if I admitted that to anyone' making someone answer "Yes. I am having fun. Lots of fun. Thank you for asking. I love FFXIV" to their friends, family and co-workers.

Really, a lot of people can't admit when they've made a bad decision or wrong choice because it would damage their own ego. The more pride a community or individual has, might make it even harder to admit a bad choice.
#18 Nov 12 2010 at 5:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I think most if not all MMOs, heck even games in general are reliant mostly or "crutched" mostly by external motivators, I guess barring FPS, where skill and the justification of that skill would be motivation enough to keep playing; those games are, at least to me, the most "fun."

WoW was kinda fun because PvP and the possibility of being ganked would call upon that skill.

So I guess my question(s) to Kachi would be, wouldn't calling on skill be vital to enjoyment and wouldn't (as I think you suggest) intrinsic motivation be best? And if that's the case, then it's no wonder (given my example) in part why a game like WoW is popular and why FFXIV has a lot to learn?


Excellent questions, but you've really opened a can of worms there... this turned out to be quite an essay. At least this is an appropriate thread for it.

Particularly in video games, there are three broader categories of skills: physical, mental, and social. Nearly all games have notable elements of at least the first two, but some are more oriented towards one than another. Physically-oriented games focus on dexterity, like FPS, racing, fighting and music games typically do. Mentally-oriented games focus on strategies, analytical thinking etc., like strategy RPGs and puzzle games. You see some excellent examples of physically-oriented games that require a great level of physical and mental ability and vice versa, Super Smash Bros. and the Rock Band/Guitar Heroes games are immediate examples. I'm sure some FPS are the same. Finally you have socially-oriented games, and many MMOs fall into this class. MMOs aren't known for being exceptionally challenging in terms of physical or mental skills... the challenges are more related to teamwork, finding peers, following directions, leading, competition, etc. This is largely what fueled the measure of success that FFXI had.

To give a brief answer to a question for once in my life, "Yes. Skill is very important to enjoyment." There is absolutely no question from a psychological standpoint that a part of what makes something intrinsically motivating, and fun, is that there is an appropriate level of challenge to it. Note that games like SSB and RB/GH provide good examples of "scaffolding" which allows difficulty to be adjusted to the player's ability, allowing them to progress towards higher levels of play as they improve their skills, rather than throwing them in the deep end. This also ties in with what we call an "optimal level of arousal," which differs both between and within people. In other words, sometimes leisure is about pushing yourself, and other times it's about relaxing.

Part of this explains why some people, unfathomably to others, enjoy FFXIV. They may find aspects of the game challenging which the rest of us find to be far too easy, particularly if it's their first MMO, and others may find that it's a source of relaxation from an otherwise hectic life, where the rest of us find it to be boring and not stimulating enough. So not so fast with the WoW example-- stimulation doesn't always mean skill or enjoyment. For example, both avoiding getting ganked in WoW as well as camping an NM in FFXI require high alertness. Alertness is a measure of mental focus and energy expenditure, and can easily be a stressful, unenjoyable experience. Think of it like holding something heavy over your head... challenging, but also tiring and mundane. It can still be a part of a fun activity though.

To answer your other question, yes, intrinsic motivations are "best." In fact, they're not only best... once it stops being intrinsically motivated, by definition it stops being leisure. Leisure is no longer defined (in the professional field) by 'free time' but by the motivation. That said, motivations aren't diametrically opposed... people have multiple motivations for different things or the same thing. So a game like FFXI does (or did) rely heavily on extrinsic rewards to motivate players, but there were also intrinsically motivating social challenges. Extrinsic rewards can be great supplements to intrinsic motivations (but can also damage it in some cases, particularly in obviously coercive situations... think of how some players feel when all of their old extrinsic rewards are replaced with new ones). If nothing else, they can keep the player playing between the fun parts.

Skill and challenge aren't the only factors that influence intrinsic motivation though. Freedom is probably one of the main ones, and in games this is represented by features like adventure/exploration and character customization. Variety and novelty are also important, because we eventually experience hedonic adaptation (things that are really cool at first get boring as we become used to them). One area that I still don't fully understand is the psychology behind the enjoyment of a story, but some of this certainly relates to novelty and variety. Sometimes "fantasy" is cited as a source of intrinsic motivation, and I believe that it is-- it definitely helps explain what motivates people to watch movies, read books, and... play Final Fantasy. It's a complicated phenomenon that could have to do with anything from the feelings of competence we experience when we learn about ourselves and our world through story-telling, to relating to story characters and feeling emotional attachments to them, to plain escapism and the freedom that imagination allows us. All I can say is that I'm working on why, but story is definitely a plus for the FF franchise.

So to bring things full circle, I'd like to use the RPG genre as an example. RPGs can be hard to define as they lack a clear defining element... often they're thought of as progression-based games, though historically they've also been heavily storied, having adventure and world-exploration elements, and reliant on strategic gameplay/combat. A good RPG can play off of these latter qualities to foster intrinsic motivation (where strategy= skill, adventure= freedom, and story= mystery meat). Progression itself is merely an extrinsic motivation unless the act of progressing is fun itself, and for an RPG that means challenge and exploration. Some people hated XII because they found the automatable gameplay boring and the story lacking, where others hated the linear nature of XIII and the effectiveness of the auto-attack feature, which also made the combat boring.

Yikes, so that's about the most comprehensive breakdown of game psychology that I've ever offered. I hope it was informative if not interesting, and further questions are welcome.

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A disclaimer, of sorts: these are not the types of things you learn explicitly in the course of any legitimate program. Technically speaking, these are hypotheses. I don't have any scholarly articles that conducted research on "what makes video games fun" and there won't be academic textbooks on game design theories that can report on research that doesn't exist. I have to draw inferences from experiments about kids coloring with markers and such to apply them to game design theories. Most of the literature revolves around sports and other leisure activities, some of which is professional research, and some is just market research. My point is that this isn't really an explicit field of study in academia, so while I'm about as close to an authority as you can get, I guess, realize that this is coming from my expertise, which in the scheme of things doesn't carry a lot of clout.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Nov 12 2010 at 6:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Comments on some stuff that was said while I was working on my dissertation, there.

Quote:
The intrinsic motivating factor to WoW is that moving around the world is fun. Literally, I mean moving your character around the world, and using abilities, it feels very nice. Its quite "crisp". To run around a cartoon world, to dive into lakes, and to run around hills and jump off them, and to run around kiting 3-4 mobs at once while your pet tanks another, etc.


This is a good example of the importance of autonomy, or freedom, as a motivator.

Quote:
That is the secret to WoW's success, not the quests,


Actually, I know some people that really get in to the lore of the quests, which goes back to the fantasy element.

Quote:

Its the same reason Mario was a great game, Nintendo also gets this IMO, and Super Mario Galaxy is a great example. Controlling your avatar very smoothly and crisply is fun in and of itself, aka intrinsic motivation.


I'm not sure about this. Bad controls are definitely a frustrating feature that damages a game's experience, but I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that good controls are intrinsically motivating. Some things are neither extrinsically motivating nor intrinsically motivating... their amotivating. Bad controls would be amotivating, but good controls on their own... I dunno. I could see them making someone feel more competent, but movement for movement's sake tends to lose a lot of its luster after early childhood.
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Whenever I play it I have the most fun running around, and also PvP, as you mentioned. PvP can be fun in and of itself, although sometimes they mess it up.


And there you have the autonomy elements (running around), the challenge elements and the social elements (PvP).

I emphasize that different people are more or less motivated by various elements, but ultimately there are things that work, and things that don't. That's why some people love games that others hate, and people like games for different reasons. However, the differences aren't anything TOO mysterious... good game design isn't rocket science, and it's less of an art than a manipulation of human psychology.

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Really, its mostly 'go kill a lady bug that's sitting in the middle of the forest mindings its own business happily living out its live. Its imparative you kill this non-aggressive lady bug or else it'll continue to mind its own business and live out the rest of its life walking back/forth doing its forest-thing'.


I lol'd.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Nov 12 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the response Kachi.

My Major in college was philosophy and I only know practical psychology by proxy at my job. So forgive me if I go on tangents or don't understand something (that's a nice way of saying I'm going on a long anecdotal tangential rant now ><).

So to me, and more generally the question is what is "fun?" (It just happens to be about games, so fun qua games?)

It's interesting because you mention "Rock band" as challenging and fun. Whereas I do think it is, but as someone who plays an instrument(s), I'd rather play an instrument (due to my biases, elitism perhaps, opportunity costs, etc). The motivating factors for playing Rock Band (for me) would be, as you say, in the realm of the social as the game is "more fun" with other players and well perhaps seeing how the songs are transcribed...? Interestingly the new Rock Band with "actual" instruments are very very interesting in terms of how people will learn new songs, and whether or not people will actually learn how to play their respective instrument.

I realize that this is entire topic, as you say is a great big can of worms. There are so many factors involved that, this back and forth wouldn't scratch the surface of something like "fun" and why people are still playing FFXIV for example. (I'm pretty sure you're argument is FFXIV is not intrinsically fun and I would agree, and even though those that are playing it aren't monolithic, quantifiably I'm sure that at this point, is lacking and will probably never regain it's "fun"...at least subjectively)

On topic with RPGs, more specifically Final Fantasy and your point with understanding story. The reasons why I love/d the Final Fantasy series (in turn bucking the Skill argument for now) was the story, music, and now, nostalgia. The games transported me to another place. Now, I think it has to do in large part with time invested, but also with every thing being text based and the limited sprite graphics. Meaning like reading a book, your mind and imagination fills in the details, so the more powerful one's imagination, the better experience they will have perhaps? Not to mention other factors like, actually being blown away by presentation, a deviation from the norm (mini games) or in the most general sense novelty (which I have found to be a very very strong component in most things humans like to do; consumption/desire...albeit short-term).

In those Final Fantasy games, (extrinsically?) I dreaded hard boss fights and had to grind to progress in the story. That grind, I'm guessing, burned into me the characters (the time investment component) and I had my favorites (usually the strongest guys or "coolest" guys, like IMO Shadow, and Locke from FF6.)

Conversely when I played FFXI and saw a Ninja casting Ninjutsu with the floating characters around him, I was sold. My first and favorite characters were THF and NIN.

So when FFXIV came around I was disappointed when there was no class like those. PUG was the closest and I think in addition to the many complaints of the game this is just added to the list.

Like I kinda prefaced, I don't really know where I'm going with this other than I think, as Kachi may agree, that it's important to question or at least understand the "whys" of things. Not to use this as a manifesto or psychology to NOT play a certain game, because if you're authentically (read: Sartre) enjoying FFXIV then good for you. But realizing these things can possibly make things more fun as you start to more fully understand the world around you.
#21 Nov 12 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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The very odd thing about FFXIV is that.. it cost 50+ dollars.. we the customer should at least expect a small if not acceptable end game content at release.. I have played several dozen F2p games.. I bs you not.. I use to go down the list of games on MMosite (preferably new releases) and play almost every game to at least mid level content if not end game.. Most if not all of these "f2P" games were fun smooth.. and **** even had end game content.. and unlockable content as you progress... FFXIV lacks all of this.. yet people continue to defend it as if the qualtiy of its current state is acceptable.. You paid 50 DOllars for it.. it is absolutely not acceptable..

IN real life if you ever turned in college papers half ******* with broken grammar... and missing conclusions.. you will automatically fail.. how does that not apply to MMO's?

LOTRO was successful because it has progressive content that you can unlock.. it wasn't just areas.. it was Dungeons, raids, crafts, storyline, mounts, skills, equipments (mind you these equipments were actually readily obtainable and weren't dam near impossible to get) ... It also helps that LOTRO was acceptably accurate to Tolkien's writing.. IT follows known story telling.. cut scenes were total crap.. but that's what the movie LOTR is for..

In all reality this game is the first MMO ever in creation to have been released with not even a spec of endgame content.. that is sad for a game with such a strong brand name.. Do not even bother countering this statement.. unless you have play at minimum 15% of the f2p games on MMOSITE ... I have, those games are generic but at least everything is there..

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 3:58pm by nick2412
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WoW: we want to give players a more fun time with less grinding and generic quests
GW2: we want the player to feel like they are leveling while doing something fun
Final Fantasy XIV: we want less fun and more grinding
#22 Nov 12 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
As for the question, "Why am I still playing?" there are a number of potential psychological answers. My guess would be that you're very extrinsically motivated to play the game, and again, the problem with that is that it creates a lot of opportunity for disappointment, and is not genuinely a leisure activity (i.e., "leisure" means you're having fun, not hoping you will have fun later). Some people continue to play because they identify with the SE brand. When identity is strong, it literally becomes a part of who you see yourself as. This is also a form of extrinsic motivation (it's on the same continuum, but not as far down as the other kind). At least subconsciously, you begin to think, "I'm the kind of person who does these things (or in this case, plays SE games). This is who I am." And if you don't do those things, it can produce cognitive dissonance (you begin to experience doubts and think that you might be wrong.) For some people, avoiding that dissonance and maintaining their identity is enough to keep them playing.


Correct me if I'm wrong, Psych 101, but the caption says "Why I am still playing".

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 4:15pm by CunningLinguist
#23 Nov 12 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, Psych 101, but the caption says "Why I am still playing".


Oh, I don't actually know if I was attempting to quote that, or if I was just inferring the question from the content of the OP. In any case, I'll have you know that this is Psych 501, if anything.

Quote:
So to me, and more generally the question is what is "fun?" (It just happens to be about games, so fun qua games?)


"Fun" is a kind of ambiguous term, and it's not really one that is well-defined professionally. I just use it colloquially as a replacement for "feeling good." That's basically what we're talking about... being in a continued state of mind where we feel complete contentment or joy. It's a sustained, positive emotional state. Is relaxation "fun"? That's kind of up for debate, but I don't think it's an especially important point.

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Whereas I do think it is, but as someone who plays an instrument(s), I'd rather play an instrument (due to my biases, elitism perhaps, opportunity costs, etc).


This is called task value, another important component of motivational psychology. Just because there's a skill we don't have and it's appropriately challenging to us doesn't necessarily mean that it's one that we are motivated to acquire. The reason for this is because we value certain tasks over others, for a number of sociological and pyschological reasons. Some of these just prevent motivation from developing, others like opportunity costs are called "constraints." Those are the things that prevent us from engaging in things that we are otherwise motivated to do.

Quote:
The motivating factors for playing Rock Band (for me) would be, as you say, in the realm of the social as the game is "more fun" with other players and well perhaps seeing how the songs are transcribed...? Interestingly the new Rock Band with "actual" instruments are very very interesting in terms of how people will learn new songs, and whether or not people will actually learn how to play their respective instrument.


Not just the social aspect-- the game requires mental alertness and dexterity, physical dexterity and endurance, and also allows us to experience the music (which relates somewhat to story elements... it's consumption leisure). It will be interesting to see how the implementation of actual instruments affects people. One of the reasons skill affects motivation is that things that require skill develop competence, and humans like to become more competent at things. But again, that will probably depend on things like task value and constraints.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure you're argument is FFXIV is not intrinsically fun and I would agree, and even though those that are playing it aren't monolithic, quantifiably I'm sure that at this point, is lacking and will probably never regain it's "fun"...at least subjectively


Well, my argument is that FFXIV isn't fun for most people. It could be intrinsically motivating to others. Like most aspects of the social sciences, there's a curve for these things. In appealing to a niche, maybe FFXIV will be a success... that's just a question of how big that niche market is and how much of it they can get. But in appealing to any substantial percentage of gamers, XIV comes up sorely lacking where it counts. It just isn't tailored well to normative human psychology.

I'll maybe respond to more later. I think this is enough for now and I've been drinking a bit.


____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#24 Nov 12 2010 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Asagiri wrote:
I'm sorry if I'm not getting this but...

People do not want to go out and kill 50 Spiders... however

They DO want to have someone to TELL them to go out and kill 50 spiders so they can come back, get a pat on the head, a cookie, and a "Job well done!"



Whereas I generally can't stand very much of that. It took less than two hours for me to quit LOTRO because of this kind of crap. I play these games to be in a vast interactive world, not to be led by the nose, step by frigging step.

"You picked up a seed!" 70 exp! HERE HAVE A CANE. HERE HAVE ANOTHER CANE.

I mean geeze - I was given two different canes within that less than two hour period. TWO.

In FFXIV I was wearing hemp rags for 17 ranks. And you know what, I would much rather have that then have everything handed to me.



Personally, i prefer quests. They draw you into the world, give you an immersive reason to kill those spiders other than "exp". Sure, its a grind - a dressed up version. But to me, i would rather spend my time fighting off invaders of a village, culling the wolves who threaten the towns food stock or laying seige to a fortress.


The guildleves in this game are well, lacking in that respect. Sure, they are nice exp, but the immersion just isnt there to me.


To me, a pure grinder works only against combatants with a tangible conflict. I do not know if i worded that correctly so i will just give an example. Slaughtering a bunch of squirrels or crabs in the pure grinder sense doesn't really fly with me. Take that same pure grinder and slap it onto an invading force (say, beastment who periodically patrol an area near town or w/e) and it becomes more bearable. There is feeling to it.
Reason to it. Importance to it.
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#25 Nov 13 2010 at 1:22 AM Rating: Default
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I can only say why I planned and still want to play ffxix and still play ffxi. I love mmo and the "slow" paced progression. I want my money worth, and for me that is time. The longer i can "play" a gane the better. Meaning the longer it takes me to "beat" the game the better. Take example fable 3 I got the CE addition ( for the boxer dog bread i love them dogs) and already beat the game 2 times working on a character woth my b/f and 1/3 of the way through a third character. I spend $50-60 on games and beat them in two weeks or less. That to me is not bang for my buck. Like spending $100 on a 5 page book. I tried WoW and it felt llike playing fable meets elder scrolls using warcraft races. too fast and got most my stuff done in a few weeks. I play games for fun. My fun is partying, killing mobs to earn levels and talking. I've been known to run around aimlessly talking to my LS for hours and enjoying myself. My enjoyment is what other take for granted, like motion capture that the game was built on.
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#26Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 13 2010 at 1:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) also not to be a debbie downer keep the phsyc 101 stuff, think yall over thinking about games and it kinda annoying to read. Like a doctor over analyzing why a baby laughs. /facepalm. It just a game and it just a question. No need for the over thinking. Picking apart the human brain just to understand the "why?" in art. Which is something i HATE. to me there is no why in art, it just art a creation from inspiration, nothing needs to have secret meanings. No need to look for them, since they really only exist in your own interpritation, and nor a fact or truth as lead to believe. :)
#27 Nov 13 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:

Personally, i prefer quests. They draw you into the world, give you an immersive reason to kill those spiders other than "exp". Sure, its a grind - a dressed up version. But to me, i would rather spend my time fighting off invaders of a village, culling the wolves who threaten the towns food stock or laying seige to a fortress.


Careful, seeing how SE's on a realism kick, the immersive reason may be "My wife saw a spider and freaked. Go kill it for me."
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#28 Nov 13 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
also not to be a debbie downer keep the phsyc 101 stuff, think yall over thinking about games and it kinda annoying to read. Like a doctor over analyzing why a baby laughs. /facepalm. It just a game and it just a question. No need for the over thinking. Picking apart the human brain just to understand the "why?" in art. Which is something i HATE. to me there is no why in art, it just art a creation from inspiration, nothing needs to have secret meanings. No need to look for them, since they really only exist in your own interpritation, and nor a fact or truth as lead to believe. :)


I don't really care what you want. Most of your posts are trash, and you have no basis for criticizing someone who actually has meaningful contributions to make. Just because you don't value education (which is very apparent) doesn't mean others don't.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#29 Nov 14 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Wow. I appreciate all th life lessons being thrown around, and also appreciate be diagnosised via Internet on my psych profile.

I think what I posted was just a bit misunderstood. I in no way meant to "attack" anyone about quitting the game. Your money and your time, do as you like.

The loose point of my post, if there was one, is that I am still playing and enjoying (yes I said enjoying) the game because my mindset is totally different this go around. I am not playing this, I mean just barely making it through in the hopes it gets better. Right now we are all doing the same thing, just grinding because there just isn't a lot to do. I am actually enjoying leveling this time because I know no matter how much time I put in it I am truly not missing much. Whereas in my previous play experience I was always rushing to get Things done so I can "play" at the highest level.

For instance, this morning I logged on while waiting for my daughter to wake up. I knocked out my armored and blacksmith leves and the repaired my gear and now I am just waiting to get some free time to knock out my Gla leves. I am actually enjoying the pace at which I am leveling.

So sorry if anyone took it as I was attacking you because you aren't happy with the game. I actually really understand it, if I had my same mindset as when I was leveling in ffxi I would hate all of this too.

Granted it bugs me when I see all these mid 30's characters running around and I am only 15. But I am finding great satisfaction that I have my armored and blacksmith at 15 as well so I can repair all of my own gear and I am not feeling self imposed pressure to be the top guy. I am sure I will in the future when more content is released but for now I am enjoying what I got.
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#30 Nov 14 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
also not to be a debbie downer keep the phsyc 101 stuff, think yall over thinking about games and it kinda annoying to read. Like a doctor over analyzing why a baby laughs. /facepalm. It just a game and it just a question. No need for the over thinking. Picking apart the human brain just to understand the "why?" in art. Which is something i HATE. to me there is no why in art, it just art a creation from inspiration, nothing needs to have secret meanings. No need to look for them, since they really only exist in your own interpritation, and nor a fact or truth as lead to believe. :)


I don't really care what you want. Most of your posts are trash, and you have no basis for criticizing someone who actually has meaningful contributions to make. Just because you don't value education (which is very apparent) doesn't mean others don't.


Sorry but over analyzing the "why" in stuff in essay posts is very tiring to read. To me an educated person would realise the game isn't for them log off and not look back. But you come here and keep posting your dislike for the game. Ans you already admited that you are: 1) are not playing anymore. 2) using this site just for study.
A pretty much a flawed study as truely most ppl wouldn't complain about a game. That just proves how much free time ppl have.
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#32 Nov 14 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll just throw in my grain of salt after reading all this thread, but here's my feelings on the whole psych 101 going on here..

Sometimes I feel that if I say "I actually enjoy this game", someone will just walk up to me and say "No, see you think you like this game, but it's your brain making you feel this way, you actually hate it." It makes me feel like I have some kind of illness and that I need to be cured.

And this image makes me chuckle. That is all, carry on.

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 12:34am by Docent42
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#33 Nov 14 2010 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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See Kachi, you fail to understand what I am saying. You lack the education, to see. You take a simple question, and make a complicated reply. In away you are braging over your inteligance, which in reallity is ignorance. There is no real hidden meanings to anything. Too look for a hidden meaning in a simple question IS over analyzing it. Like looking at a waterfall and describe in detail WHY we think it is beautiful instead of not talking and enjoying its beauty. Or like going to a magic show and telling your date how the stuff is "fake" vs watching it for entertainment. Which is again make you a bit ignorant. A truely smart person knows when to analyze and when to enjoy. There is a saying, I don't recall it word for words but I can para phrase it. An ignorant person talks about how smart he is while a wise man don't. something to that effect. Basically if you brag about how smart you are, you are not all that smart. And also there is such thing as over analysing things. You are proof of it. :)
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#34 Nov 14 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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(cont) Kachi the reason you are the proof of it is simple. You do not know when to be simple. :) A truely well educated person would know this. This site is not an say a harvard study of "why gamers talk or enjoy gaming" this is a simple fan forum for the enjoyment of posting conversations. This is not a site to "epeen" on how well educated you are as if you was a peacock setting up your territory. I'm actually smarter then you think, I just know when to be "simple" and when to be "smart". I'm also here to just enjoy myself while I wait for the game. Maybe to meet new people and make friends. If I played atm like I really wanted to this would be my reply
" I still play simple because I enjoy the combat and the motion capture used for the game." Thats all that needs to be said. Don't need a 3 page long essay. If that is too simple to you, then maybe you are the ignorant one who is too smart for his/her own good. :) Also two words can sum you up. Buzz kill :) or if you wann get fancy a kill joy.
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#35 Nov 15 2010 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
An ignorant person talks about how smart he is while a wise man don't. something to that effect. Basically if you brag about how smart you are, you are not all that smart. And also there is such thing as over analysing things. You are proof of it. :)


As a corrolary, if your grammar is atrocious and your conclusions are non sequiturs, you are also not all that smart.
#36 Nov 15 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Solimurr wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
An ignorant person talks about how smart he is while a wise man don't. something to that effect. Basically if you brag about how smart you are, you are not all that smart. And also there is such thing as over analysing things. You are proof of it. :)


As a corrolary, if your grammar is atrocious and your conclusions are non sequiturs, you are also not all that smart.


Look up attention Deficate/ Deficait Disorder.
Just because someone got a learning disability, don't mean they are not smart. Also if you look at past post I did mention I have no clue where the spell/ grammar check is on my brothers laptop, and that I mainly post from my ps3 which have none of those.
Since your only post was to insult my typing with a lack of wondering why? you just a bully. :) Not a personal attack just calling out on BS.
Also, I suck at typing... if you don't get what I am saying don't be rude. Just ask what you are not understanding. I try my best to type clear.
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#37 Nov 15 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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One of us is knowledgeable about the subject at the PhD level and enjoys sharing what he's learned with others.

The other seems to lack a high school diploma and whines about the fact that someone is teaching.

You're welcome to talk about what it means to be a smart and educated person when you actually show some semblance of being one. Until then, your gripes are rate-down fodder. I'm honestly not even bothering to read them past the first asinine remark you make, which is generally the very first thing you say.

Edit: btw, I have ADD too, diagnosed after hours of evaluation unlike many amateur diagnoses that lead to the atrocious over-diagnosis of the condition. That said, ADD has never caused me to type anything remotely as unintelligible as any of your posts.

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 12:08pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Nov 15 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Wow. I appreciate all th life lessons being thrown around, and also appreciate be diagnosised via Internet on my psych profile.


I'm sensing some sarcasm... take my posts how you will. I can only offer an opinion based on what I'm told. If you feel that what I've said doesn't apply to you, then feel free to disregard it. But if you feel that I have touched a personal chord, then perhaps you should reflect upon what I've said and maybe learn something that will help you better yourself and your life.

Quote:
Sorry but over analyzing the "why" in stuff in essay posts is very tiring to read. To me an educated person would realise the game isn't for them log off and not look back. But you come here and keep posting your dislike for the game. Ans you already admited that you are: 1) are not playing anymore. 2) using this site just for study.
A pretty much a flawed study as truely most ppl wouldn't complain about a game. That just proves how much free time ppl have.


1. In any actual profession, there is no such thing as "over-analyzing." There is good analysis and bad analysis, never "too much" analysis. There is nothing wrong with my analysis.

2. What an educated person is like "to you" means absolutely nothing to me. Your conception of an educated person as someone who does not appear to be well-educated themselves is baseless.

3. You don't even understand why I'm here even though I've given numerous reasons in plain English. A study? I've never even said that. You also seem unable to distinguish the difference between a poster who dislikes the game but has other things to say, and someone who is only here to badmouth the game.

In short, I don't believe I have ever met another person whose opinion I valued less. Nearly everything you say only affirms my belief that you are unaware of your own great ignorance, have the mental development of a child (which you very well may be), and have nothing substantive to contribute to the discussion. You should simply sit back and read, because you have a lot to learn before your posts will be a valuable addition to the community.

Kapow.


Truth is Kachi, you seem like an intelligent person.

In any real profession, your right, there is no such thing as *over-analyzing*, however, there is the possibility that things happen to be over-looked, missed.

You sometimes have a bad habit of missing the obvious from over-looking into things too deeply.
#39 Nov 15 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I haven't missed that you're full of ****. That's been obvious for a while.

Look to your ratings if you doubt it (both of you). As I said in that other thread, you can say that your poor ratings are a result of defending FFXIV on a board full of haters, but the truth is, plenty of people defend this game and make Scholar. I've never rated someone down just for liking or defending the game... I don't even notice someone's name unless they say something really stupid, smart, funny, or they've been around for years. The both of you blipped on my "stupid" radar numerous times, so I don't think it's any coincidence that you haven't made Scholar, nor do I believe that it has anything to do with your defense of FFXIV.

The both of you are blissfully unaware of your own ignorance and immaturity, and unfortunately for you, few other people are.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#40 Nov 15 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
*
169 posts
Kachi wrote:
I haven't missed that you're full of sh*t. That's been obvious for a while.

Look to your ratings if you doubt it (both of you). As I said in that other thread, you can say that your poor ratings are a result of defending FFXIV on a board full of haters, but the truth is, plenty of people defend this game and make Scholar. I've never rated someone down just for liking or defending the game... I don't even notice someone's name unless they say something really stupid, smart, funny, or they've been around for years. The both of you blipped on my "stupid" radar numerous times, so I don't think it's any coincidence that you haven't made Scholar, nor do I believe that it has anything to do with your defense of FFXIV.

The both of you are blissfully unaware of your own ignorance and immaturity, and unfortunately for you, few other people are.


Ratings, smahtings. If thats all you care about Kachi, you are truely blind and are completely missing the obvious. Why does every post you make turn somehow onto you rating people up or down? It has nothing to do with what I posted.......not in the least.

I tried to be civial with you Kachi, but it seems your seriously inapt of civial, constructive conversation and resort to nothing but banter and personal jest when the shoe is on the other foot.

Only child here after reading your last post here would be you. Showing your true colours my vocal friend.

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 4:13pm by Taemek
#41 Nov 15 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I just said in the other thread that I didn't think you were unintelligent, just rude and unpleasant. And here you've proved me wrong.

But where I was right is that I'm going to go back to ignoring you.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Nov 15 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Before this thread gets locked I'll put this here.

It's an acquaintance of mine who now teaches/getting his Phd in Lit.:

http://staff.washington.edu/schenold/

Check under projects ----> CGP.

Basically it's an effort to look at video games critically, at the University level.
-----

In the end, after all of this back and forth: Yes there are times to sit back and enjoy the show, and there are times to dissect it. And in its time EVERYTHING ought to be dissected and understood through context. I don't see how ignorance is ever preferable. That is to say, if you're lacking the ********

And since this is an open forum, and since I ASKED Kachi a couple of questions, he graciously responded with his knowledge applied to this subject. This turned a run-of-the-mill thread into, at the very least, a pseudo academic one which to me, is always welcome.

Now I obviously don't agree with the guy on certain things (Uematsu *cough*) but when arguments are presented you don't just say, "Wah go away, don't do this, this is unnecessary!" Or worse, feign humility as a guise for ignorance.


#43 Nov 15 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
*
169 posts
Kachi wrote:
I just said in the other thread that I didn't think you were unintelligent, just rude and unpleasant. And here you've proved me wrong.

But where I was right is that I'm going to go back to ignoring you.


Kachi, are you reading the same posts I am reading that you wrote? Maybe there is two Kachi's on this forum? I am starting to worry that you might have a spilt personality, ethier that or you have issues consorting with people of the same IQ level as yours OR higher in some cases. Being in your profession I am sure you know what they refer too in this regard.

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 4:40pm by Taemek
#44 Nov 15 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Ah, that's very interesting. Love their site design, too. It's too bad I'm so particular to this region, or I'd love to attend a university with a program like that. I'm sure we could collaborate on some things, regardless. I'll be sure to contact them. Thanks.

I believe the disagreement on Uematsu was 80% miscommunication, 20% legitimate contention, but anyway, it just goes to show that some people can disagree vehemently and still respect eachother, and others have yet to learn how respect is earned.

I would add that feigning intelligence/education also plain doesn't work. Anyone with a thesaurus can use flowery words, but you can't fake substance. It won't fool anyone worth fooling.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Nov 15 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
**
315 posts
Kachi wrote:
One of us is knowledgeable about the subject at the PhD level and enjoys sharing what he's learned with others.

The other seems to lack a high school diploma and whines about the fact that someone is teaching.

You're welcome to talk about what it means to be a smart and educated person when you actually show some semblance of being one. Until then, your gripes are rate-down fodder. I'm honestly not even bothering to read them past the first asinine remark you make, which is generally the very first thing you say.

Edit: btw, I have ADD too, diagnosed after hours of evaluation unlike many amateur diagnoses that lead to the atrocious over-diagnosis of the condition. That said, ADD has never caused me to type anything remotely as unintelligible as any of your posts.

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 12:08pm by Kachi

hours of study also, you never actually looked it up did you. Add effects everyone differently. Its how it wires your brain. Also no need to shove you "PhD" in our faces. You derailed alot of threads with your bs. My add effects my hand/eye corridination, my penminship and my recollection of grammar, spelling and basic math. I've been Graduated since 03 from Whittier tech. I rely on spellchecker and grammar checker but there is none on the ps3. No need to insult someone just to prive how "smart" you think you are. If you was you wouldn't epeen ADD. As you would know ADD effects everyone differently.

If you want to contribute, post so EVERYONE can understand, know your audience and ask simple questions if you don't understand something.
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#46 Nov 15 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Default
**
315 posts
Kierk wrote:
Before this thread gets locked I'll put this here.

It's an acquaintance of mine who now teaches/getting his Phd in Lit.:

http://staff.washington.edu/schenold/

Check under projects ----> CGP.

Basically it's an effort to look at video games critically, at the University level.
-----

In the end, after all of this back and forth: Yes there are times to sit back and enjoy the show, and there are times to dissect it. And in its time EVERYTHING ought to be dissected and understood through context. I don't see how ignorance is ever preferable. That is to say, if you're lacking the ********

And since this is an open forum, and since I ASKED Kachi a couple of questions, he graciously responded with his knowledge applied to this subject. This turned a run-of-the-mill thread into, at the very least, a pseudo academic one which to me, is always welcome.

Now I obviously don't agree with the guy on certain things (Uematsu *cough*) but when arguments are presented you don't just say, "Wah go away, don't do this, this is unnecessary!" Or worse, feign humility as a guise for ignorance.



thread derailment is trolling, if you guys wanted to talk there are systems to go about it.
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#47 Nov 15 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Default
**
315 posts
Taemek wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I just said in the other thread that I didn't think you were unintelligent, just rude and unpleasant. And here you've proved me wrong.

But where I was right is that I'm going to go back to ignoring you.


Kachi, are you reading the same posts I am reading that you wrote? Maybe there is two Kachi's on this forum? I am starting to worry that you might have a spilt personality, ethier that or you have issues consorting with people of the same IQ level as yours OR higher in some cases. Being in your profession I am sure you know what they refer too in this regard.

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 4:40pm by Taemek

I'm wondering the same thing. I love how they are making excuses for derailing threads.
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#48 Nov 15 2010 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
K guys, enough is enough.
#49 Nov 15 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Hey, I'm already done. He's the one that consecutively posts three derailed posts and claims that we're derailing the thread, and ergo trolling, lol.

@Kierk; Do you know what the best way to reach them would be?

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 9:23pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Nov 16 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Kachi wrote:
Hey, I'm already done. He's the one that consecutively posts three derailed posts and claims that we're derailing the thread, and ergo trolling, lol.

@Kierk; Do you know what the best way to reach them would be?

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 9:23pm by Kachi



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