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Tanaka: We were aware of issues (from Eurogamer)Follow

#52 Nov 13 2010 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
SE is notorious for hovering on the verge of bankruptcy between major releases. That much is documented fact. If you'll recall, the date for PC release shocked the **** out of pretty much everyone. Nobody expected it to be that soon relative to the state of the beta at the time. Ask Pikko and crew how many hours they spent doling out beta keys only to have the closed beta shut down within two weeks and the open beta dumped on us followed shortly after by a release date. And anyone with half a clue at that time could have told you that the game wasn't going to ship anywhere near the state of polish we might have hoped for. Were you not here on these boards for all the people swearing up and down that there would be this massive change between what we saw in open beta and what we'd get with the retail release?

Do you not remember the uproar from the PS3 players when we went from E3 "everything is on track for simultaneous release on both platforms" to a week later, "PC CE Sept. 22, SE Sept. 3, PS3 March 2011." You remember that, yes? And back when it happened I posted about how it was probably Wada's decision to pull the trigger on release. Wada...an executive, not a developer. Wada...the guy whose job it is to monitor the finances. Wada...the guy so far removed from key development decisions he might as well be a blind consultant. Yet despite all that, like most game studio managers, he has final say on what ships and when. Nobody here has ever defended the timing of the release as a smart decision, but that doesn't excuse willful stupidity. It has been explained. Read it. Read it again until it sinks in. Your questions are moot. Your kvetches are moot. It's done. Accept it.

It seems to me like a lot of people are going out of their way to ignore certain things. I think they know that if they sat down and looked at it rationally that the only adult response to all of this is to show a little patience and a little less childish petulance over the whole ordeal. Put 2 and 2 together ffs. Nobody should have been surprised that things worked out the way that they did.


Sorry, I wasn't around on these forums before launch. My experience with this game started with the final alpha test. All posts read or made at that point were solely on the dev forum. I never heard anything beyond the official Sept. 22nd release date while I was testing.

As for the posts about the hoped for "massive change" between beta and release, I certainly understand their sentiment. It was my mistake, but I assumed there was no way what I was playing in beta could have been considered a final product, especially from SE. Considering the responses from the dev team during beta, the same ones we get now, none, everyone was left wondering what was going on. Feedback was given to devs and it seemed to be ignored mostly.

Like I said, in hindsight it was my own fault for expecting too much from SE. This will surely never happen again.
#53 Nov 13 2010 at 2:03 AM Rating: Decent
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551 posts
Irishclass777 wrote:
@ Zor. Did you even read what I wrote? Guess not as you called it a useless rant. It is tiring to read people talk about beta and feedback COMPLETELY forgeting the server stability issues and the several weeks of beta cancelations due to server stability. And not really. When you got a set release date for a game like an mmo you do have to ship it on that date. It not easy to change it. Alot of read tape to go through. Also mmorpg are a different beast then a non online game. mmo are NEVER complete. They are always changing. And yes after the release of the game SE did PLAN for those updates. Do you guys even look up how games are made? The man hours devs put in? the games server stability issues lead to this state of the game. We don't like it SE knows this and knows what to do to fix it. But don't sit and talk smack when you don;t look at the full spectrum of events that took place around the ffxiv launch, its beta and alpha. SE could have ignored the server stability. Lesser of 2 evils.



I did read what you wrote, hence why everything in my reply pointed at things you wrote.

Sorry, you do NOT have to release an incomplete mmorpg simply because there's a release date. It does indeed work the same as a non-mmo. I don't know where you're pulling your ideas from, but they're wrong. And in SE's case it's even easier to do as they are BOTH developer AND publisher.

WoW launched with server stability issues. Did it hurt them? No. Why? Because people were enjoying the **** out of the content that was there whenever they could log on.

So the simple answer is, server stability WAS the lesser of two evils. And by the way, do YOU know how developer teams work? The guys working on the client/server stability are NOT the guys who make the content. You have artist, you have story writers, you have "content" developers ( those who make quest around what the story writers have written, for example ), you have programmers ( and these split into further groups by expertise, i.e. guys programming the AI, guys who do the network ( server stability ) code, etc., etc.).

So the server instability was in fact NO excuse to not have content in the game and it was NOT an excuse to push the game out before it was ready. It was Tanaka's job to say "Hey, you guys keep working on content, and you guys over here keep working on stability, and I'm going to tell Wada we need to delay release.". It would then be Wada's responsibility to be smart and delay the game as requested.

So from where I sit, it is Tanaka's fault for not doing his job, and it is Wada's fault for not keeping closer tabs on his company's money-maker.
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#54 Nov 13 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
KitsurubamiSouzahara wrote:
As for the posts about the hoped for "massive change" between beta and release, I certainly understand their sentiment. It was my mistake, but I assumed there was no way what I was playing in beta could have been considered a final product, especially from SE. Considering the responses from the dev team during beta, the same ones we get now, none, everyone was left wondering what was going on. Feedback was given to devs and it seemed to be ignored mostly.


No response from the devs? You mean aside from Komoto's address when it was announced that the trial period was being extended by a month? No response from the devs aside from the list they just posted outlining what they've already got in the works for the next three updates, two of which are due out within the next six weeks? See, you can't make ridiculous statements like there has been no communication from the devs. It's like saying there's no sky. I'm truly flabbergasted that people are still falling back on that same tired ******** line. Anything you say before and after a dumb statement like that becomes moot, because you're obviously not being reasonable.
#55 Nov 13 2010 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
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I'm rather amused by people who think the problem with the game was "time". That's part of it, but the bigger problem is the developers who clearly never even playtested their own game. Just an hour of time spent trying to use the retainer system would have shown them the system was garbage. Just an hour of time spent trying to vendor items would have shown them the system was pointlessly and ludicrously clunky. Just an hour of time spent trying to repair items would have shown them that the repair indicator needs to tell you which gear is damaged. These aren't unfinished ideas. They're just bad ideas.

Just like the SP system. A proc-based SP system is a bad idea. It encourages all sorts of foolishness in party play. The optimal SP gains involve silly nonsense like DPS holding back on damage, mages only ever getting to spam AoE heals, and tanks who like to take more damage. It makes people angry with one another because they ***** each other out of SP. And it leads to "gaming the system" like with the AFK parties we now have.

And who thought it was a good idea to have the UI authenticate server-side? Whoever signed off on that idea and kept it in the released game deserves to lose his job in the videogame industry. He clearly doesn't belong there. Again, not unfinished. Just dumb.

The only thing that is really "unfinished" is the lack of content. Everything else works without too many bugs. Its the poor, untested ideas from the design team that are largely to blame. That is precisely why SE is now having to tear down those bad systems and implement good ones. I find it incredible that a modern videogame company didn't have a development process that caught this and corrected this a loooong time ago. Really, what were they doing for the 5 years apart from engine development and graphics work?

Edited, Nov 13th 2010 3:35am by goomba666
#56 Nov 13 2010 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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goomba666 wrote:
Really, what were they doing for the 5 years apart from engine development and graphics work?


You answered your own question: they were working on the graphics engine. It's the same reason FFXIII is lackluster; too much time spent on the damned Crystal Tools and not enough actually working on the game's mechanics. So yes, time *is* the problem with FFXIV. After wasting the years working on their engine (which even they finally admitted making was a mistake) they're left scrambling to try to create a game with that engine.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason there's not a lot of testing is simply because they more than likely *couldn't* test due to such constraints. It's not excusable in the slightest, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me.

I don't like him at all, but just LOOKING at Tanaka shows he's aged significantly since working on pre-alpha FFXIV to now. I really feel sorry for the lower developers up under him, as you know they were running on maybe a handful of hours of sleep for months due to the company's idiocy.

Edited, Nov 13th 2010 7:06am by StrijderVechter
#57 Nov 13 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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Not defending anyone here but devs rarely test their software aside from short unit tests to make sure their code is solid. It's up to QA analysts and beta testers to make sure the whole package works well together. From what I can tell that was a point of failure in the process.

Its frustrating to see the phrase "devs should've played their own game!" repeated so often when they actually dont. Maybe if they have spare time, but I doubt SE's devs get enough to play it AND keep up a family life lately.

It's like the "Obammer's gonna take yur guns" and "Obummer's gunna pull the plug on Grandma" myths.... just keeps getting repeated no matter how untrue it is.
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#59 Nov 13 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Default
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164 posts
Oo, I do like screenshots, put lots of em in review please.

#60 Nov 13 2010 at 8:21 AM Rating: Default
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164 posts
If the release state was set in stone, Se could have done the following. They could have released the game, but kept the live servers off-line. And, announced to the players, that the servers would go on-line once the system was ready. They could also have left the beta servers up and running.
#61 Nov 13 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Default
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315 posts
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
@ Zor. Did you even read what I wrote? Guess not as you called it a useless rant. It is tiring to read people talk about beta and feedback COMPLETELY forgeting the server stability issues and the several weeks of beta cancelations due to server stability. And not really. When you got a set release date for a game like an mmo you do have to ship it on that date. It not easy to change it. Alot of read tape to go through. Also mmorpg are a different beast then a non online game. mmo are NEVER complete. They are always changing. And yes after the release of the game SE did PLAN for those updates. Do you guys even look up how games are made? The man hours devs put in? the games server stability issues lead to this state of the game. We don't like it SE knows this and knows what to do to fix it. But don't sit and talk smack when you don;t look at the full spectrum of events that took place around the ffxiv launch, its beta and alpha. SE could have ignored the server stability. Lesser of 2 evils.



I did read what you wrote, hence why everything in my reply pointed at things you wrote.

Sorry, you do NOT have to release an incomplete mmorpg simply because there's a release date. It does indeed work the same as a non-mmo. I don't know where you're pulling your ideas from, but they're wrong. And in SE's case it's even easier to do as they are BOTH developer AND publisher.

WoW launched with server stability issues. Did it hurt them? No. Why? Because people were enjoying the **** out of the content that was there whenever they could log on.

So the simple answer is, server stability WAS the lesser of two evils. And by the way, do YOU know how developer teams work? The guys working on the client/server stability are NOT the guys who make the content. You have artist, you have story writers, you have "content" developers ( those who make quest around what the story writers have written, for example ), you have programmers ( and these split into further groups by expertise, i.e. guys programming the AI, guys who do the network ( server stability ) code, etc., etc.).

So the server instability was in fact NO excuse to not have content in the game and it was NOT an excuse to push the game out before it was ready. It was Tanaka's job to say "Hey, you guys keep working on content, and you guys over here keep working on stability, and I'm going to tell Wada we need to delay release.". It would then be Wada's responsibility to be smart and delay the game as requested.

So from where I sit, it is Tanaka's fault for not doing his job, and it is Wada's fault for not keeping closer tabs on his company's money-maker.

Was WoW servers shut off for weeks at a time? And mmo are a different beast. Like I said ffxiv beta servers was shut off for like weeks at a time. Devs more focus on that then adding stuff as adding stuff was shutting the servers down. Iv been following alpha and beta closely as i knew several testers. Your example was pretty bad. Games are not delayed with in mnths of released they are delayed way in advance. For ffxiv to be delayed wouldf have been just bewfore alpha was out. but during beta. That costs them money. And unlike gran turismo (sp) ffxiv can have patches to add missing content. So like I said lesser of 2 evils. Make the game playable is what they wanted to do. And liked I said its getting old, whats done is done. SE could have released the game with all content that no one could play cuz no one could log on.
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#62 Nov 13 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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551 posts
Irishclass777 wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
@ Zor. Did you even read what I wrote? Guess not as you called it a useless rant. It is tiring to read people talk about beta and feedback COMPLETELY forgeting the server stability issues and the several weeks of beta cancelations due to server stability. And not really. When you got a set release date for a game like an mmo you do have to ship it on that date. It not easy to change it. Alot of read tape to go through. Also mmorpg are a different beast then a non online game. mmo are NEVER complete. They are always changing. And yes after the release of the game SE did PLAN for those updates. Do you guys even look up how games are made? The man hours devs put in? the games server stability issues lead to this state of the game. We don't like it SE knows this and knows what to do to fix it. But don't sit and talk smack when you don;t look at the full spectrum of events that took place around the ffxiv launch, its beta and alpha. SE could have ignored the server stability. Lesser of 2 evils.



I did read what you wrote, hence why everything in my reply pointed at things you wrote.

Sorry, you do NOT have to release an incomplete mmorpg simply because there's a release date. It does indeed work the same as a non-mmo. I don't know where you're pulling your ideas from, but they're wrong. And in SE's case it's even easier to do as they are BOTH developer AND publisher.

WoW launched with server stability issues. Did it hurt them? No. Why? Because people were enjoying the **** out of the content that was there whenever they could log on.

So the simple answer is, server stability WAS the lesser of two evils. And by the way, do YOU know how developer teams work? The guys working on the client/server stability are NOT the guys who make the content. You have artist, you have story writers, you have "content" developers ( those who make quest around what the story writers have written, for example ), you have programmers ( and these split into further groups by expertise, i.e. guys programming the AI, guys who do the network ( server stability ) code, etc., etc.).

So the server instability was in fact NO excuse to not have content in the game and it was NOT an excuse to push the game out before it was ready. It was Tanaka's job to say "Hey, you guys keep working on content, and you guys over here keep working on stability, and I'm going to tell Wada we need to delay release.". It would then be Wada's responsibility to be smart and delay the game as requested.

So from where I sit, it is Tanaka's fault for not doing his job, and it is Wada's fault for not keeping closer tabs on his company's money-maker.

Was WoW servers shut off for weeks at a time? And mmo are a different beast. Like I said ffxiv beta servers was shut off for like weeks at a time. Devs more focus on that then adding stuff as adding stuff was shutting the servers down. Iv been following alpha and beta closely as i knew several testers. Your example was pretty bad. Games are not delayed with in mnths of released they are delayed way in advance. For ffxiv to be delayed wouldf have been just bewfore alpha was out. but during beta. That costs them money. And unlike gran turismo (sp) ffxiv can have patches to add missing content. So like I said lesser of 2 evils. Make the game playable is what they wanted to do. And liked I said its getting old, whats done is done. SE could have released the game with all content that no one could play cuz no one could log on.


*sigh*

Everytime I argue with you, my head hurts and I want to strangle a kitten.
____________________________


[ffxivsig]1815523[/ffxivsig]
#63 Nov 13 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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137 posts
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
@ Zor. Did you even read what I wrote? Guess not as you called it a useless rant. It is tiring to read people talk about beta and feedback COMPLETELY forgeting the server stability issues and the several weeks of beta cancelations due to server stability. And not really. When you got a set release date for a game like an mmo you do have to ship it on that date. It not easy to change it. Alot of read tape to go through. Also mmorpg are a different beast then a non online game. mmo are NEVER complete. They are always changing. And yes after the release of the game SE did PLAN for those updates. Do you guys even look up how games are made? The man hours devs put in? the games server stability issues lead to this state of the game. We don't like it SE knows this and knows what to do to fix it. But don't sit and talk smack when you don;t look at the full spectrum of events that took place around the ffxiv launch, its beta and alpha. SE could have ignored the server stability. Lesser of 2 evils.



I did read what you wrote, hence why everything in my reply pointed at things you wrote.

Sorry, you do NOT have to release an incomplete mmorpg simply because there's a release date. It does indeed work the same as a non-mmo. I don't know where you're pulling your ideas from, but they're wrong. And in SE's case it's even easier to do as they are BOTH developer AND publisher.

WoW launched with server stability issues. Did it hurt them? No. Why? Because people were enjoying the **** out of the content that was there whenever they could log on.

So the simple answer is, server stability WAS the lesser of two evils. And by the way, do YOU know how developer teams work? The guys working on the client/server stability are NOT the guys who make the content. You have artist, you have story writers, you have "content" developers ( those who make quest around what the story writers have written, for example ), you have programmers ( and these split into further groups by expertise, i.e. guys programming the AI, guys who do the network ( server stability ) code, etc., etc.).

So the server instability was in fact NO excuse to not have content in the game and it was NOT an excuse to push the game out before it was ready. It was Tanaka's job to say "Hey, you guys keep working on content, and you guys over here keep working on stability, and I'm going to tell Wada we need to delay release.". It would then be Wada's responsibility to be smart and delay the game as requested.

So from where I sit, it is Tanaka's fault for not doing his job, and it is Wada's fault for not keeping closer tabs on his company's money-maker.

Was WoW servers shut off for weeks at a time? And mmo are a different beast. Like I said ffxiv beta servers was shut off for like weeks at a time. Devs more focus on that then adding stuff as adding stuff was shutting the servers down. Iv been following alpha and beta closely as i knew several testers. Your example was pretty bad. Games are not delayed with in mnths of released they are delayed way in advance. For ffxiv to be delayed wouldf have been just bewfore alpha was out. but during beta. That costs them money. And unlike gran turismo (sp) ffxiv can have patches to add missing content. So like I said lesser of 2 evils. Make the game playable is what they wanted to do. And liked I said its getting old, whats done is done. SE could have released the game with all content that no one could play cuz no one could log on.


*sigh*

Everytime I argue with you, my head hurts and I want to strangle a kitten.


Dude your wasting your time argueing. SE knew months in advance that the game was not ready. This wasn't something they found out in August. They could have moved the date.
#64 Nov 13 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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315 posts
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
@ Zor. Did you even read what I wrote? Guess not as you called it a useless rant. It is tiring to read people talk about beta and feedback COMPLETELY forgeting the server stability issues and the several weeks of beta cancelations due to server stability. And not really. When you got a set release date for a game like an mmo you do have to ship it on that date. It not easy to change it. Alot of read tape to go through. Also mmorpg are a different beast then a non online game. mmo are NEVER complete. They are always changing. And yes after the release of the game SE did PLAN for those updates. Do you guys even look up how games are made? The man hours devs put in? the games server stability issues lead to this state of the game. We don't like it SE knows this and knows what to do to fix it. But don't sit and talk smack when you don;t look at the full spectrum of events that took place around the ffxiv launch, its beta and alpha. SE could have ignored the server stability. Lesser of 2 evils.



I did read what you wrote, hence why everything in my reply pointed at things you wrote.

Sorry, you do NOT have to release an incomplete mmorpg simply because there's a release date. It does indeed work the same as a non-mmo. I don't know where you're pulling your ideas from, but they're wrong. And in SE's case it's even easier to do as they are BOTH developer AND publisher.

WoW launched with server stability issues. Did it hurt them? No. Why? Because people were enjoying the **** out of the content that was there whenever they could log on.

So the simple answer is, server stability WAS the lesser of two evils. And by the way, do YOU know how developer teams work? The guys working on the client/server stability are NOT the guys who make the content. You have artist, you have story writers, you have "content" developers ( those who make quest around what the story writers have written, for example ), you have programmers ( and these split into further groups by expertise, i.e. guys programming the AI, guys who do the network ( server stability ) code, etc., etc.).

So the server instability was in fact NO excuse to not have content in the game and it was NOT an excuse to push the game out before it was ready. It was Tanaka's job to say "Hey, you guys keep working on content, and you guys over here keep working on stability, and I'm going to tell Wada we need to delay release.". It would then be Wada's responsibility to be smart and delay the game as requested.

So from where I sit, it is Tanaka's fault for not doing his job, and it is Wada's fault for not keeping closer tabs on his company's money-maker.

Was WoW servers shut off for weeks at a time? And mmo are a different beast. Like I said ffxiv beta servers was shut off for like weeks at a time. Devs more focus on that then adding stuff as adding stuff was shutting the servers down. Iv been following alpha and beta closely as i knew several testers. Your example was pretty bad. Games are not delayed with in mnths of released they are delayed way in advance. For ffxiv to be delayed wouldf have been just bewfore alpha was out. but during beta. That costs them money. And unlike gran turismo (sp) ffxiv can have patches to add missing content. So like I said lesser of 2 evils. Make the game playable is what they wanted to do. And liked I said its getting old, whats done is done. SE could have released the game with all content that no one could play cuz no one could log on.


*sigh*

Everytime I argue with you, i don't think really how things are

fixed.

Sorry I know a good deal how games are released. It cost money to make games, the longer you wait the more money it costs. Same when it comes with movies. Plus also you do need to look at all events, and realize it not easy to make choices. mmo are not single player games stuff can be, and are changed with patches. Also may cost more to make cuz of getting servers to run the game. Those who give them the servers must have a date they need to be on or they give them to someone else. Stuff to make and run an mmo cost money. Mostgames don;t really get delayed all that often. More or canceked or shelfed is stuff isn't going well. Then they more on another project till they work out the kinks. All this can be found on the net. It is pretty sad "gamers" don't think about it. They want their games pefect (nothing is) and exactly how they want. Not my fault you zor don't understand the full spectrum of how mmo, games are made, and SE choice to fix the bugs and server stability vs making the server stability worst adding content.


Stuff happens, but understand they are doing their best. If thatb isn't good enough for you, then take a break. No reason to be bitter to other people because your assumption of games being easy to make/ release.

Edited, Nov 13th 2010 3:31pm by Irishclass777
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#65 Nov 13 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Default
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315 posts
doubleax wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
@ Zor. Did you even read what I wrote? Guess not as you called it a useless rant. It is tiring to read people talk about beta and feedback COMPLETELY forgeting the server stability issues and the several weeks of beta cancelations due to server stability. And not really. When you got a set release date for a game like an mmo you do have to ship it on that date. It not easy to change it. Alot of read tape to go through. Also mmorpg are a different beast then a non online game. mmo are NEVER complete. They are always changing. And yes after the release of the game SE did PLAN for those updates. Do you guys even look up how games are made? The man hours devs put in? the games server stability issues lead to this state of the game. We don't like it SE knows this and knows what to do to fix it. But don't sit and talk smack when you don;t look at the full spectrum of events that took place around the ffxiv launch, its beta and alpha. SE could have ignored the server stability. Lesser of 2 evils.



I did read what you wrote, hence why everything in my reply pointed at things you wrote.

Sorry, you do NOT have to release an incomplete mmorpg simply because there's a release date. It does indeed work the same as a non-mmo. I don't know where you're pulling your ideas from, but they're wrong. And in SE's case it's even easier to do as they are BOTH developer AND publisher.

WoW launched with server stability issues. Did it hurt them? No. Why? Because people were enjoying the **** out of the content that was there whenever they could log on.

So the simple answer is, server stability WAS the lesser of two evils. And by the way, do YOU know how developer teams work? The guys working on the client/server stability are NOT the guys who make the content. You have artist, you have story writers, you have "content" developers ( those who make quest around what the story writers have written, for example ), you have programmers ( and these split into further groups by expertise, i.e. guys programming the AI, guys who do the network ( server stability ) code, etc., etc.).

So the server instability was in fact NO excuse to not have content in the game and it was NOT an excuse to push the game out before it was ready. It was Tanaka's job to say "Hey, you guys keep working on content, and you guys over here keep working on stability, and I'm going to tell Wada we need to delay release.". It would then be Wada's responsibility to be smart and delay the game as requested.

So from where I sit, it is Tanaka's fault for not doing his job, and it is Wada's fault for not keeping closer tabs on his company's money-maker.

Was WoW servers shut off for weeks at a time? And mmo are a different beast. Like I said ffxiv beta servers was shut off for like weeks at a time. Devs more focus on that then adding stuff as adding stuff was shutting the servers down. Iv been following alpha and beta closely as i knew several testers. Your example was pretty bad. Games are not delayed with in mnths of released they are delayed way in advance. For ffxiv to be delayed wouldf have been just bewfore alpha was out. but during beta. That costs them money. And unlike gran turismo (sp) ffxiv can have patches to add missing content. So like I said lesser of 2 evils. Make the game playable is what they wanted to do. And liked I said its getting old, whats done is done. SE could have released the game with all content that no one could play cuz no one could log on.


*sigh*

Everytime I argue with you, my head hurts and I want to strangle a kitten.


Dude your wasting your time argueing. SE knew months in advance that the game was not ready. This wasn't something they found out in August. They could have moved the date.

how do you know? game beta/ alpha had server stability issues that took longer then expected to fix. they add stuff during these phases or in release. "Content" are effected by the servers in away. Can't over load the servers which is why they crash. Both game data and player datas fall under this. Plus it would cost them more money to wait. When they can release and fix stuff after. That is the power of mmo rather then non- mmo. But for both waiting cost money.
Not fighting will yall, just informing the ignorance. (and no that isn't a personal attack)
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#66 Nov 13 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry again for the derail, but this kind of stuff is just too important to not perfectly understand.

Quote:
Majority in numbers does mean something. If the Republicans filibuster something then the Democratic majority can move to close with a 3/5(60%) vote. The simple fact is that the democratic party is not united as it once was. Republicans do tend to stick to the same ideologies (wether right or wrong).


I already said that. The democrats haven't HAD 3/5 of the vote. There just weren't enough of them. I also mentioned that not all democrats are progressive democrats, so even when you say that the Senate has 58 democrats, that doesn't mean that all 58 are democrats in every sense of the word.

Quote:
SE promised me something. That something I've yet to see.
Obama promised me something. That something I've yet to see.


SE is a company that can produce pretty much whatever they want. Any president who makes a campaign promise, republican or democrat, does so with the understanding that they can't keep 99% of those promises unless the Congress lets them. But running on a campaign of, "This is what I'll do... if Congress lets me," is no way to win an election. The people who already know it don't need to hear it, and the people who don't know it are too ignorant to understand that reaching across the aisle is just another empty promise when the other side is just going to smack their hand away no matter what.

With only a very few exceptions, every promise that Obama hasn't fulfilled has been a direct result of the republicans not letting him. That's the way the system works.

This is something every kid should learn before they graduate high school.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#67 Nov 13 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
**
800 posts
doubleax wrote:

Dude your wasting your time argueing. SE knew months in advance that the game was not ready. This wasn't something they found out in August. They could have moved the date.


No one's saying the game wasn't released early. The problem is that the game WAS released early. It's done, over, finished, past tense. The release date has come and gone. Sure, they could have moved the release date back, but they didn't. Unless you're sitting on a time machine there is absolutely nothing you, me, or SE can do about the release date. So get over it already.

SE has come leaps and bounds in the communication department since FFXI with announcements from Wada and Tanaka. They've given us an additional free month which, as far as I know, is a first for them (thinking FFXI). And they've given us detailed patch notes prior to the patch, which is again very new for SE. They're quite obviously willing to compromise on their "vision" for FFXIV and instead are working to implement player suggestions.

You guys love to get on the blind fanboys' backs, but you're quickly approaching blind hater status. It doesn't matter if SE fixes FFXIV into the truly perfect MMO, the blind hater will still treat the game like they did on day 1. Before you spread more hate, sit back and truly look at the big picture, compare development content and communication to FFXI, and look at SE as a multi-national, multi-platform, and multi-media company (hence not just the makers of FFXIV).
#68 Nov 13 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
Kierk wrote:


And that's where we are. It makes sense what Tanaka says, but in the end it is very hard for me to excuse this. I can't imagine how the devs feel; You work hard for 5 years **** around trying to build a graphics engine for 4 years and rush to make a game in 1 after the shareholders tell you to stop ******** around and have to release a game that you know has problems, ugh.


ftfy
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#69 Nov 13 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
It's telling that since Tanaka left FFXI it has greatly improved.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#70 Nov 13 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
**
315 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
Kierk wrote:


And that's where we are. It makes sense what Tanaka says, but in the end it is very hard for me to excuse this. I can't imagine how the devs feel; You work hard for 5 years **** around trying to build a graphics engine for 4 years and rush to make a game in 1 after the shareholders tell you to stop ******** around and have to release a game that you know has problems, ugh.


ftfy

build a game engine THEN say they "**** around"
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#71 Nov 13 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
551 posts
Irishclass777 wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kierk wrote:


And that's where we are. It makes sense what Tanaka says, but in the end it is very hard for me to excuse this. I can't imagine how the devs feel; You work hard for 5 years **** around trying to build a graphics engine for 4 years and rush to make a game in 1 after the shareholders tell you to stop ******** around and have to release a game that you know has problems, ugh.


ftfy

build a game engine THEN say they "**** around"


Build a game engine, THEN say they weren't "******* around".
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[ffxivsig]1815523[/ffxivsig]
#72 Nov 13 2010 at 7:46 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kierk wrote:


And that's where we are. It makes sense what Tanaka says, but in the end it is very hard for me to excuse this. I can't imagine how the devs feel; You work hard for 5 years **** around trying to build a graphics engine for 4 years and rush to make a game in 1 after the shareholders tell you to stop ******** around and have to release a game that you know has problems, ugh.


ftfy

build a game engine THEN say they "**** around"


Build a game engine, THEN say they weren't "******* around".


You must have missed the article where one of the guys behind the engine commented on how they probably should have just licensed a third party engine and been done with it. It took a lot of work.
#73 Nov 13 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
551 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kierk wrote:


And that's where we are. It makes sense what Tanaka says, but in the end it is very hard for me to excuse this. I can't imagine how the devs feel; You work hard for 5 years **** around trying to build a graphics engine for 4 years and rush to make a game in 1 after the shareholders tell you to stop ******** around and have to release a game that you know has problems, ugh.


ftfy

build a game engine THEN say they "**** around"


Build a game engine, THEN say they weren't "******* around".


You must have missed the article where one of the guys behind the engine commented on how they probably should have just licensed a third party engine and been done with it. It took a lot of work.


Which means basically, they ****** around for four out of five years building an engine they didn't need in the first place. Has nothing to do with whether building the engine was hard or not, it has to do with practicality and efficient use of developer time.
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#74 Nov 13 2010 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
**
315 posts
in all honesty it takes 5 hours to build 1 tree in a game. then more time tweaking and placement. I'm a CAD and kinda get the time it takes to build things and know its not effin easy :)
Zor stop talking smack when you are ignorant to really how things are. Any search on the net can prove what I say.
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#75 Nov 13 2010 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
So its my fault they told us the game was amazing and would be fun and exciting even though for the most part it was all made up hype?


You bought the game. The decision was all yours. Nobody elses. Sounds like you're wiser now, but still blaming the anyone but yourself for your own mistake.

This is how it's done in the West.


Only in Bizarro world is the customer blamed for a bad product. S-E was in a better position than the average customer to know whether or not the game was actually in a shippable state, and they were in a better position to do some thing about it if it wasn't, and they're the ones that profited in the short term from selling it as it was. So they definitely get all of the blame.

Now, if some one has played the game and continues to pay for it, then they are solely responsible for their continued misery.

It's like a wise man once said: "Fool me once, shame on... shame on you? If fooled me you can't get fooled again."

Edited, Nov 13th 2010 9:19pm by KarlHungis
#76 Nov 13 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
17 posts
Kachi wrote:
Sorry again for the derail, but this kind of stuff is just too important to not perfectly understand.

Quote:
Majority in numbers does mean something. If the Republicans filibuster something then the Democratic majority can move to close with a 3/5(60%) vote. The simple fact is that the democratic party is not united as it once was. Republicans do tend to stick to the same ideologies (wether right or wrong).


I already said that. The democrats haven't HAD 3/5 of the vote. There just weren't enough of them. I also mentioned that not all democrats are progressive democrats, so even when you say that the Senate has 58 democrats, that doesn't mean that all 58 are democrats in every sense of the word.

You don't let your opponents filibuster repeatedly unless you're incompetent. Filibuster is a weapon that can only be used in the Senate and only rarely, otherwise it backfires big time. There's a reason actual filibusters are pretty uncommon.

The simple fact is the Dems didn't have cohesion. Too much disparity within their own party, from blue-dog union democrats to academic-type liberals to urban machine politicians.

Quote:

With only a very few exceptions, every promise that Obama hasn't fulfilled has been a direct result of the republicans not letting him. That's the way the system works.


That is way, way too simplistic of a good guy/bad guy analysis. The president has a ton of power to whip congress into action with the bully pulpit. Other presidents manage to get things passed when they have majority in the legislature; **** they often manage to get more done when they don't. The healthcare bill is a Frankenstein-esque creation that actually does way more to help the insurance companies and certain segments of the population than the general public, and that's the only landmark achievement so far.

Edited, Nov 13th 2010 10:16pm by goomba666
#77 Nov 13 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
17 posts
Irishclass777 wrote:
in all honesty it takes 5 hours to build 1 tree in a game. then more time tweaking and placement. I'm a CAD and kinda get the time it takes to build things and know its not effin easy :)

Your experience as a CAD isn't really relevant here, and other companies with far fewer resources have managed better. SE isn't the only company to ever build 1 tree in a game. It is a complex process, but if you're supposedly a premiere, top tier videogame company, this is your bread and butter.

SE needs a management overhaul or something, which will hopefully happen as a result of this episode. They seem to be getting their asses in gear at least.
#78 Nov 13 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
*
63 posts
Irishclass777 wrote:
in all honesty it takes 5 hours to build 1 tree in a game. then more time tweaking and placement. I'm a CAD and kinda get the time it takes to build things and know its not effin easy :)
Zor stop talking smack when you are ignorant to really how things are. Any search on the net can prove what I say.


I'm sure SE has more than one person working on creating models. Generally there are teams, one for the model, another for the texture maps, etc, etc. And while it make take some time to make each model, SE obviously figured out how to use copy and paste, because that same tree is all over the place.
#79 Nov 13 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
You don't let your opponents filibuster repeatedly unless you're incompetent. Filibuster is a weapon that can only be used in the Senate and only rarely, otherwise it backfires big time. There's a reason actual filibusters are pretty uncommon.

The simple fact is the Dems didn't have cohesion. Too much disparity within their own party, from blue-dog union democrats to academic-type liberals to urban machine politicians.


Have you kept track of the current republican party? They're currently a party that's primarily concerned with getting reelected by people who hate our president because he's a black, socialist Muslim. Independents like Joe Lieberman were going to filibuster legislation, and republicans have set as part of their party agenda to not allow Obama to pass anything. That's their political strategy, from their own documents.

As for Dems not having cohesion, I already pointed that out at least twice, but that's not the democrat's fault. Let's take your blue-dogs... is it their fault for not being cohesive with the other democrats? That's like saying that it's a republicans fault for being republican... a blue dog is a blue dog. They are more conservative, and some side with republicans, so applying a blanket term like "democrat" just creates the illusion that there are more liberals in the Congress than there really are.

Quote:
That is way, way too simplistic of a good guy/bad guy analysis. The president has a ton of power to whip congress into action with the bully pulpit. Other presidents manage to get things passed when they have majority in the legislature; **** they often manage to get more done when they don't. The healthcare bill is a Frankenstein-esque creation that actually does way more to help the insurance companies and certain segments of the population than the general public, and that's the only landmark achievement so far.


I'm not talking good guy/bad buy at all. The GOP is united against making sure any major Obama bill is passed. Other presidents haven't had to deal with such a divided electorate. When you have significant portions of the population that basically think Obama is the end of the country, republicans aren't as willing to compromise because it puts them in jeopardy of losing their seats. I'm not happy with the healthcare bill either... it was better than nothing. But the blame for that can hardly be placed on Obama. As for it being the only "landmark" achievement so far, we can quibble over what's a landmark, but he's already done more than any president in the last few decades considering he's only been in office for two years.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#80 Nov 13 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Zorvan wrote:

Which means basically, they ****** around for four out of five years building an engine they didn't need in the first place. Has nothing to do with whether building the engine was hard or not, it has to do with practicality and efficient use of developer time.


No, they did need an engine. And they knew they were going to be making at least two AAA titles with it and they took a chance. This time around, it didn't pay off and they know it. Lesson learned. No reason for you to be a dink about it.
#81 Nov 13 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
*
63 posts
Aurelius wrote:
AAA title


Can you give me the definition of "AAA title" please.
#82 Nov 14 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
KitsurubamiSouzahara wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
AAA title


Can you give me the definition of "AAA title" please.


Big budget mainstream.
#83 Nov 14 2010 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
551 posts
Irishclass777 wrote:
in all honesty it takes 5 hours to build 1 tree in a game. then more time tweaking and placement. I'm a CAD and kinda get the time it takes to build things and know its not effin easy :)
Zor stop talking smack when you are ignorant to really how things are. Any search on the net can prove what I say.


The only one talking smack is you.

I never once said building an engine was easy. Easy or hard has not a **** thing to do with the discussion.

This is why I said arguing with you gives me a headache. Because you come out of left field with sh*t, and you do NOT know half of what you think you do, but you have convinced yourself otherwise.

So back to ignore you go.


Aurelius wrote:
Zorvan wrote:

Which means basically, they ****** around for four out of five years building an engine they didn't need in the first place. Has nothing to do with whether building the engine was hard or not, it has to do with practicality and efficient use of developer time.


No, they did need an engine. And they knew they were going to be making at least two AAA titles with it and they took a chance. This time around, it didn't pay off and they know it. Lesson learned. No reason for you to be a dink about it.


Yes, they did need an engine. They did not need to build one. There are plenty out there that were available and much better than what they were able to conceive.

That's the whole point. They ****** around doing **** they DID NOT need to do. And it is a reason for anyone to be a "dink" about it, when this is supposedly an experienced and competent group of both developers and businessmen who would have supposedly been well aware of the mot effiecient and productive route to take. And yet they took the other route.

Edited, Nov 14th 2010 1:59am by Zorvan
____________________________


[ffxivsig]1815523[/ffxivsig]
#84 Nov 14 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
in all honesty it takes 5 hours to build 1 tree in a game. then more time tweaking and placement. I'm a CAD and kinda get the time it takes to build things and know its not effin easy :)
Zor stop talking smack when you are ignorant to really how things are. Any search on the net can prove what I say.


The only one talking smack is you.

I never once said building an engine was easy. Easy or hard has not a **** thing to do with the discussion.

This is why I said arguing with you gives me a headache. Because you come out of left field with sh*t, and you do NOT know half of what you think you do, but you have convinced yourself otherwise.

So back to ignore you go.


Then maybe you could be a bit more selective in your use of expressions. "******* around" isn't exactly clear, ya know? And in my part of the world, when you refer to someone as ******* around, you're basically saying they're goofing off and putting no effort into something. "Hey, why isn't Bob done painting the upstairs bedrooms yet?" "I dunno...every time I walk by he's just up there by himself ******* around."

Smarten up.
#85 Nov 14 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
551 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
in all honesty it takes 5 hours to build 1 tree in a game. then more time tweaking and placement. I'm a CAD and kinda get the time it takes to build things and know its not effin easy :)
Zor stop talking smack when you are ignorant to really how things are. Any search on the net can prove what I say.


The only one talking smack is you.

I never once said building an engine was easy. Easy or hard has not a **** thing to do with the discussion.

This is why I said arguing with you gives me a headache. Because you come out of left field with sh*t, and you do NOT know half of what you think you do, but you have convinced yourself otherwise.

So back to ignore you go.


Then maybe you could be a bit more selective in your use of expressions. "******* around" isn't exactly clear, ya know? And in my part of the world, when you refer to someone as ******* around, you're basically saying they're goofing off and putting no effort into something. "Hey, why isn't Bob done painting the upstairs bedrooms yet?" "I dunno...every time I walk by he's just up there by himself ******* around."

Smarten up.


When you waste precious project time doing something you don't need to do at the detriment of the rest of the project, to me that IS goofing around.

If Tanaka was my employee, he would be fired with the reason of "wasted company resources and jeopardized high profile development project".

And bite me.:p

Edited, Nov 14th 2010 2:07am by Zorvan
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[ffxivsig]1815523[/ffxivsig]
#86 Nov 14 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Zorvan wrote:
When you waste precious project time doing something you don't need to do at the detriment of the rest of the project, to me that IS goofing around.

And bite me.:p


I just can't respond to this kind of gross stupidity anymore.

Get a goddam clue.
#87 Nov 14 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
551 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
When you waste precious project time doing something you don't need to do at the detriment of the rest of the project, to me that IS goofing around.

And bite me.:p


I just can't respond to this kind of gross stupidity anymore.

Get a goddam clue.


A man should realize their limitations. Congratulations. Don't worry, you'll learn more as you get older.
____________________________


[ffxivsig]1815523[/ffxivsig]
#88 Nov 14 2010 at 1:14 AM Rating: Excellent
HI FOLKS HOW YA'LL DOIN' THIS FINE NIGHT!

aka: let's knock it off already guys.

Edited, Nov 13th 2010 11:15pm by Osarion
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#89 Nov 14 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
Sage
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1,675 posts
Regardless of this back and forth I still stand by my statement of feeling sorry for the devs.

They may have wanted to work on other "important" stuff or they may have not.

In any case any artist or creators (especially the underlings) don't go out to create a game and say, "I can't wait when this fails!"
#90 Nov 14 2010 at 1:45 AM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Zorvan wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
When you waste precious project time doing something you don't need to do at the detriment of the rest of the project, to me that IS goofing around.

And bite me.:p


I just can't respond to this kind of gross stupidity anymore.

Get a goddam clue.


A man should realize their limitations. Congratulations. Don't worry, you'll learn more as you get older.


It's pretty gauche to run around editing in extra arguments to posts that have already been responded to.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're using hindsight and acting like they knew all along they were heading down the wrong path. The only thing more disconcerting than your ignorance is the pomposity with which you're trying to ram it down everyone's throats.

You don't know half as much as you seem to want to and you're really just ******** up the boards with your mindless tripe. But if that's making you feel better, you just carry right on ahead because if there's one thing these boards are good for, it's an awful lot of stupid in a wee little space.
#91 Nov 14 2010 at 1:53 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
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180 posts
Hey Osarion I'm doing great how about you?

At the risk of derailing this thread even further and I apologize in advance and karma be damned but:

Quote:
I'm not talking good guy/bad buy at all. The GOP is united against making sure any major Obama bill is passed. Other presidents haven't had to deal with such a divided electorate. When you have significant portions of the population that basically think Obama is the end of the country, republicans aren't as willing to compromise because it puts them in jeopardy of losing their seats. I'm not happy with the healthcare bill either... it was better than nothing. But the blame for that can hardly be placed on Obama. As for it being the only "landmark" achievement so far, we can quibble over what's a landmark, but he's already done more than any president in the last few decades considering he's only been in office for two years.


Give me a $%^&ing break

Again apologies all..

/bow
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