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Craftsmanship vs. Magic CraftsmanshipFollow

#1 Nov 13 2010 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, I know it's in here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. What exactly is the difference between craftsmanship+ and magic craftsmanship+? Does magic+ = control?

Thanks.
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#2 Nov 13 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
Certain synths favor either craftmanship or magic craftmanship, influencing the success rates. Using an example from one of my previous posts, Iron pliers seem to favor the smithing offhand, sure it's possible to complete the synth using the mainhand, it just will be slightly more difficult and risky.
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#3 Nov 13 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I see, thanks. The question wasn't specifically about main or off hand tools, though, but armor and such. How do you know if a particular synth is affected by additional craft + gear or magic craft skills?
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#4 Nov 13 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
Well I used the main and the offhand tools as they are the things that have the greatest difference in craftsmanship and magic. As for how to find out which way a synth leans to is to try it out, one synth with mainhand, another using the offhand. At the moment there is nothing set in stone to find out which stats a synth favors without experimentation. My advice is to gear so stats are pretty well balanced, another thing is you can never have too much crafting stats. Higher success means more bolds/rapids for faster crafting or more chances at an HQ.
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#5 Nov 13 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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All recipes, however, have set attribute requirements. Attempting a recipe with attributes below those required will result in lessened progress and quality, even for successful actions.


This leads me to support the balancing of stat as well. Chances are, even if that Craft. attribute doesn't affect your rate of success/progress, it will affect the synth overall as part of the requirement.
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#6 Dec 04 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
While the stats vary - since the majority of + mag craftsmanship gear tends to usually favor : alc, cul, gld, and wvr .... would it then be fair to say that these are the jobs which tend to rely on magic craftsmanship over general craftsmanship?

Mind you bsm and arm are also mentioned fairly frequently in the 'favors' part of gear of this type...
#7 Dec 04 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tooltips on stats, cons on synths. (Can I have it?) HIdden attributes need to die in a fire.

Edited, Dec 4th 2010 10:58am by Spyrit178
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#8 Dec 04 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Hidden attributes should have died years ago.
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#9 Dec 04 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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Hidden attributes, and my all-time favorite SE WTF hidden moment - hidden latency.
Let's not forget XI's OG hidden theme.. Quests. Only game I ever played where the quest/mission send-offs were somewhere in the neighborhood of "You might need to talk to someone else somewhere in the whole world, I'm not gonna tell u where, or if there will be battle, or if you need to bring friends, or a certain item, or zone through 5 different areas for cut-scenes first, or that it has to be a certain time of day...etc ad nauseum". If it weren't for data mining and sites like this, people would still be trying to figure out how to be the first person to get an airship pass in XI.

Or the starting NPC didn't even hint you had just started any kind of quest, lol.
WTF were they thinking there?

FFS put the hidden gear stats on the gear, we can look them up online and see them anyway, stop being lazy!



Edited, Dec 4th 2010 1:21pm by Restyoneck
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#10 Dec 08 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Just to throw this out there (it may be blatantly obvious or i may be way off...) but the relation of attributes to crafting was given to us not long ago. It went like this:

Class Main Hand Tool Off Hand Tool
Carpenter VIT DEX
Blacksmith STR MND
Armorer VIT STR
Goldsmith DEX INT
Leatherworker VIT INT
Weaver DEX MND
Alchemist INT PIE
Culinarian MND PIE

Now, perhaps the Craft vs MagCraft issue boils down to non-Mag vs Mag attributes respectively. This would be to say, anything using STR, DEX, or VIT would be affected by Craftsmanship and anything using INT, MND, or PIE would be affected by MagCraftsmanship. So Carpenters would benefit from Craft+ gear, whereas Alchemists would benefit from MagCraft+ gear. This would also be to say that Goldsmiths would benefit from Craft+ gear when using their main hand and MagCraft+ gear when using their off hand (according to this). What say you to this?

I haven't tested it myself. I have found (somewhat disappointingly) that attributes don't make enough of a differnce to motivate me to invest in new gear. For now, I simply keep Craft+ gear when i find it, since (according to this theory) it would help me as i am primarily focusing on weaver and leatherworker.
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#11 Dec 09 2010 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
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DaricoAndari wrote:
I haven't tested it myself. I have found (somewhat disappointingly) that attributes don't make enough of a differnce to motivate me to invest in new gear.

I totaly agree. I will do a synth wearing my combat gear because I have forgotten to change it and succeed, then switch to my crafting gear, with significantly higher control+ and fail the same synth. I have done sooooo many synths now that I know this wasn't a random fluke. With all the will in the world, if the game wants you to fail, you will fail. Doesn't matter how much control+ gear you have. The only reason i keep combat and craft gear seperate now is so that my combat gear doesnt suffer damage while i synth.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 6:29am by IzanagaAsura
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#12 Dec 09 2010 at 6:15 AM Rating: Good
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In order to test how every stat influences a synth, each and every stat needs to be tested no less than 100 times. (to come out with a solid average.) That is just too much on SE's to expect any player to do. Requesting tooltips on stats is not a request of lazy gamers, it is a request of practical gamers.

Crafting is not what it was in FFXI or WoW, many stats come into play. These stats are a need to know factor in a game, would you play a battling class without know how all the stats effect your game play? Crafting in FFXIV is no different.

Calling people lazy gamers for wanting to play their class at the most optimal level, is a lack of understanding of how FFXIV game mechanics work. I cannot believe some people are willing to play their class at less than optimal.

Each stat may influence each class differently, we don't know for certain. Not without a huge undertaking of testing each and every stat on each and every crafting numerous times, something that can be resolved with something as simple as tooltips about those stats.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 7:22am by Spyrit178
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#13 Dec 09 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:

Crafting is not what it was in FFXI or WoW, many stats come into play. These stats are a need to know factor in a game, would you play a battling class without know how all the stats effect your game play? Crafting in FFXIV is no different.

We actually don't know this, either. Sure, we have vague explanations like "increases physical attack damage" but we don't have the actual formulas, so we don't know how STR differs from ATK or how much of a damage increase you can expect from X STR.
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#14 Dec 09 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:

Crafting is not what it was in FFXI or WoW, many stats come into play. These stats are a need to know factor in a game, would you play a battling class without know how all the stats effect your game play? Crafting in FFXIV is no different.

We actually don't know this, either. Sure, we have vague explanations like "increases physical attack damage" but we don't have the actual formulas, so we don't know how STR differs from ATK or how much of a damage increase you can expect from X STR.


At least you have that information, crafters and gatherers don't even have that. We don't even know if things are working as intended.
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#15 Dec 09 2010 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Craftsmanship and magic craftsmanship are not really hidden stats. I don't know if SE thought they were just that obvious, or if they had other things to deal with.

Craftsmanship controls your chance of HQ Quantity (aka you make 16, 24, or 32 instead of 12)
Magic Craftsmanship controls your chance of HQ Quality (aka you make a +1, +2, or +3).

Magic Craftsmanship seems to help off-hand more than main hand (most of the synths I have seen that do +1s are off hand... not all).
#16 Dec 09 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
Craftsmanship and magic craftsmanship are not really hidden stats. I don't know if SE thought they were just that obvious, or if they had other things to deal with.

Craftsmanship controls your chance of HQ Quantity (aka you make 16, 24, or 32 instead of 12)
Magic Craftsmanship controls your chance of HQ Quality (aka you make a +1, +2, or +3).

Magic Craftsmanship seems to help off-hand more than main hand (most of the synths I have seen that do +1s are off hand... not all).


That's not entirely true.

There are some synths where main hand HQ results are +1/+2/+3 and offhand are higher quantity. And since we know that rank for rank, main hand tools tend to focus more on craftsmanship and offhand more on magic craftsmanship, trying to offer up concrete explanations for how things work without recognizing the bigger picture is a mistake. The hint comes form the types of tools. Pliers are delicious for making rings out of wire for armorer. They seem to be better for making chain out of rings, too. A spinning wheel seems better suited to making yarn than a sewing needle. A grinding wheel seems better suited to polishing gems than a hammer. A mortar seems better suited to grinding flour and other powders than an alembic.

The way to get an idea for which recipes favor which types of tools is to look at the HQ results on a site like YG that now splits them between MH and OH for a lot of recipes. As a general rule of thumb, the tool that produces materials of a greater quantity on an HQ is the hint over which stat the recipe favors.
#17 Dec 09 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:

The way to get an idea for which recipes favor which types of tools is to look at the HQ results on a site like YG that now splits them between MH and OH for a lot of recipes. As a general rule of thumb, the tool that produces materials of a greater quantity on an HQ is the hint over which stat the recipe favors.


You do know that the MH/OH Quality/Quantity is class specific and not item specific right?

Mainhand for BS/GS/CRP/LW will always produce +quantity for materials/parts

Mainhand for Weaver/Alch will always produce +1/2/3

So that doesn't help on an individual class basis determining which stat helps for which recipe.
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#18 Dec 09 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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Strifexx wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

The way to get an idea for which recipes favor which types of tools is to look at the HQ results on a site like YG that now splits them between MH and OH for a lot of recipes. As a general rule of thumb, the tool that produces materials of a greater quantity on an HQ is the hint over which stat the recipe favors.


You do know that the MH/OH Quality/Quantity is class specific and not item specific right?

Mainhand for BS/GS/CRP/LW will always produce +quantity for materials/parts

Mainhand for Weaver/Alch will always produce +1/2/3

So that doesn't help on an individual class basis determining which stat helps for which recipe.


GLD (or GS) does not follow that trend. Many GLD recipe HQ is completely chaotic where it produce both quantity and quality.

For instance:
Raw Jade -> Nephrite -> HQ 2 x Nephrite Or 1 Jadeite Or 2 Jadeite Or 2 Jadeite +1 Or 2 Jadeite +2, these are all my own experience using just Main hand tool.

Elemental Rock -> Marbled Eye. Main hand HQ can produce 1 Elemental Moraine Or 2 Elemental Moraine Or 1 Astral/Umbral Moraine Or 2 Astral/Umbral Moraine. Offhand HQ can produce Eye of Element Or Radiant Eye of Element Or Radiant Eye of Element +1

Yellow Copper Ore -> HQ both MH and OH produce Tin Nugget and Brimstone in quantity of 12 (No increase in quantity) with the exception OH's is +1. On the other hand MH can produce Silver and Gold Nugget.

Bone Chip -> Bone Harpoon **** MH can produce +1/+2/+3

Blue Yarzon Leg -> Yarzonshell Harpoon Head MH can produce +1/+2/+3

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 6:02pm by Khornette
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#19 Dec 09 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ah didn't know that for GS since I just do leves for Culinary and Goldsmith on my alt.

For CRP/LW/BSM/WVR I've never seen anything like that though.

Weird that you can get +quantity or +hq for something like bone harpoon butts.

I grinded weapon butts on BSM a ton and have never seen anything other then +quantity using mainhand.

Same for things like lumber, handles, leather, leather parts, yarn, cloth, etc. from my other crafts.
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#20 Dec 09 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
Craftsmanship and magic craftsmanship are not really hidden stats. I don't know if SE thought they were just that obvious, or if they had other things to deal with.

Craftsmanship controls your chance of HQ Quantity (aka you make 16, 24, or 32 instead of 12)
Magic Craftsmanship controls your chance of HQ Quality (aka you make a +1, +2, or +3).

Magic Craftsmanship seems to help off-hand more than main hand (most of the synths I have seen that do +1s are off hand... not all).


That's not entirely true.

There are some synths where main hand HQ results are +1/+2/+3 and offhand are higher quantity. And since we know that rank for rank, main hand tools tend to focus more on craftsmanship and offhand more on magic craftsmanship, trying to offer up concrete explanations for how things work without recognizing the bigger picture is a mistake. The hint comes form the types of tools. Pliers are delicious for making rings out of wire for armorer. They seem to be better for making chain out of rings, too. A spinning wheel seems better suited to making yarn than a sewing needle. A grinding wheel seems better suited to polishing gems than a hammer. A mortar seems better suited to grinding flour and other powders than an alembic.

The way to get an idea for which recipes favor which types of tools is to look at the HQ results on a site like YG that now splits them between MH and OH for a lot of recipes. As a general rule of thumb, the tool that produces materials of a greater quantity on an HQ is the hint over which stat the recipe favors.


huh?
Other than stating that craftsmanship is quantity and magical craftsmanship is quality, I only stated that the different tools provide different support (either craftsmanship, or magical craftsmanship, or both). Not one craft has quality only on the main tool, or quantity only on the main tool. And some crafts even have quality and quantity from a single tool (main or subbed).

Did I miss something?
#21 Apr 08 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Default
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Hidden attributes, and my all-time favorite SE WTF hidden moment - hidden latency.
Let's not forget XI's OG hidden theme.. Quests. Only game I ever played where the quest/mission send-offs were somewhere in the neighborhood of "You might need to talk to someone else somewhere in the whole world, I'm not gonna tell u where, or if there will be battle, or if you need to bring friends, or a certain item, or zone through 5 different areas for cut-scenes first, or that it has to be a certain time of day...etc ad nauseum". If it weren't for data mining and sites like this, people would still be trying to figure out how to be the first person to get an airship pass in XI.

Or the starting NPC didn't even hint you had just started any kind of quest, lol.
WTF were they thinking there?

FFS put the hidden gear stats on the gear, we can look them up online and see them anyway, stop being lazy!


Amen!

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 9:41am by AnnHog
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#22 Apr 08 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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This is a very important topic. However there's lots of talking and little testing. If you want to learn how to test, go here, its not impossible. Follow the guildelines in Section V and check the strategy in Section XI, and give me your logs.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=129477483817176564&page=1
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#23 Sep 09 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
Amen, Amen... I'm so effin' sick of hidden stats and hidden everything in these FF games when the whole concept is a relic of games long past. I still haven't figured what the pull of these games is for me other than the graphics (but if it was just the graphics I'd still be playing Aion for their vastly superior character creation and natural movement...and wings). I only actually started playing rather than watching guys play at FFXI, so I can't even give the excuse of brand loyalty. But here I am trying to find out how foods figure into this whole mess. It's so level-job-recipe-specific it's ridiculous! We're all a bunch of masochists!
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