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Has the class system ruined the storyline quests? (spoilers)Follow

#1 Nov 15 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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To start with I'm rank 50mrd and have completed all the current story quests/missions.

In all I have been immensely dissapointed. The story starts off really good, and then starts to get kind of lame once you leave your main city. There were so many times where you got to see an -epic- cutscene, only to be dissapointed by a completely lame battle. And other times you just ran around the world for 5 lines of dialogue and then back.

Does anyone think this is due to crafters + gatherers and SE's decision to make missions completeable by all jobs? I think due to this, it has become impossible to create an "epic" boss battle, and has forced almost every mission to be easily completable. In reality, you could probably complete every mission so far with a level 1 job.

The following is a summary of the missions that seem like they will be epic and then let you down.


First "epic" mission: You go to gridania, and the empire attacks the sylphs. you see these awesome machines attacking and all these troops.... then you get to the fight.
The fight is essentially running around and avoiding 3-4 soldiers which aren't exactly difficult to avoid. Fighting them isn't even difficult. So essentially its 20 minutes of running. There are no machines anywhere, just weak foot soldiers.

Second "epic" mission: you go to ul'dah and try to break up some beastman fight.
Aside from the fact that fighting 2 beastmen isn't really epic, you can just play parley and beat this fight easily. Overall theres nothing epic about this at all. In the cutscene it makes it look like the beastmen will be fighting each other. but in reality they just run in circles and don't even agro (at least they didn't agro me)

Third "epic" mission: zomg ifrit. Super hardcore looking, and about to attack you. But that would be too fun for this game. Instead you fight or parley some "controlled" people and then fight/parley some beastmen. Once again, not epic at all.

Fourth "epic" mission: run alllllllllll the way to nine ivies, then follow your npc guy for 5-10 min with no mobs in the way. Then fight 2 weak hyenas. Get a few lines of pointless dialogue. now run allllllllllllll the way back to ul'dah.

Fifth "epic" mission: Final current mission. You run to mor'dhona and try to pull off some super epic attack on the empire. So guess what happens. You follow 3 imperial soldiers for 5 min, then run in circles and let a machine blow them up. then you chase a guy a bit and your done.




Overall the point is so far this game doesn't have a single epic fight or epic boss battle. Nothing takes hardcore skill to beat. You never feel like you're really accomplishing anything, just hitting easy-prey mobs. Like ffxi had an epic dragon fight at early levels, and then some other pretty epic fights, even in the original missions. ffxiv (and i realize its not ffxi) just has a lot of running and a few seconds of easy fighting. Due to the class system this seems to be all the game will ever be able to deliver story-wise.

Has anyone else felt the same disappointment?

On a positive note, the final cutscene for the current missions makes it look like the game will get A LOT better storywise (because tbh right now the story is all over the place).
#2 Nov 15 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree that the player involvement in the story is pretty week. I'm on the sylph attack part. I do think it's due to the Devs wanting crafters to take part in the overall story and the fact that they set out for the game to engage people who prefer to play solo (lame) .

What I wish for is to have the battle jobs relive a certain perspective of the story and the crafters/gatherers another.

Like say: Epic battle vs the Empire: you see CS leading up to the attack: then the story splits: you can fight (battle jobs) craft/repair weapons for NPC soldiers who are in battle (crafter story) or gather resources to support whatever. (gatherer) then once you complete your task the resulting CS plays and carries on.

I have a feeling as long as this team wants solo players and DoL/DoH's to take part in the over all story line we will continue to have less than epic encounters unless they are voluntary like through a guildleve.
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#3 Nov 15 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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I've only reached R26.. but I began noticing that with a couple of the quests....

My thought is, they should just created epic DoW and DoM quests.... Much like how it starts off all splintered in FFXI, then everything comes together... This way your offensive classes will be able to engage in the "battle" portion of the storyline..

My other thought was- that they talked about how some big fights you will need DoL and DoH in order to complete it... perhaps this is the way to create epic battles, regardless of which class you have ranked up?

Either way, from what I've experienced, I agree that the missions are really lackluster in excitment/difficulty...
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#4 Nov 15 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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I had a feeling this was going to be the case when I finished the r15 mission. Pretty lame IMO.
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#5 Nov 15 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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I'm one of those people to be blamed in a way = D Though I had no intent of playing the way I have. Currently my highest class is Weaver @36 and next is Alchemy @29. Top fighting is only CON & THM both @22. A lot of that is because this is the most I've ever enjoyed crafting and I actually have more motivation to rank those up over my fighting classes.

I like that I can continue progressing the main storyline without having to catch my CON or THM up to where WVR is. It's definitely a different main storyline than what I'm used to though. That difference may make it seem rather bland without the epic battles & such. Though it is a very interesting story thus far. Hopefully it leads to more interesting battle-oriented content in the near future.

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 4:40pm by TwistedOwl
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#6 Nov 15 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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MaverickBG wrote:
I've only reached R26.. but I began noticing that with a couple of the quests....

My thought is, they should just created epic DoW and DoM quests.... Much like how it starts off all splintered in FFXI, then everything comes together... This way your offensive classes will be able to engage in the "battle" portion of the storyline..

My other thought was- that they talked about how some big fights you will need DoL and DoH in order to complete it... perhaps this is the way to create epic battles, regardless of which class you have ranked up?

Either way, from what I've experienced, I agree that the missions are really lackluster in excitment/difficulty...



I can picture the epic DOL quests now.

"tomorrow we're going to launch an attack on the enemy stronghold. I think these 3 trees may get in the way. You're job is to go cut down those trees"
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#7 Nov 15 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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Every little bit helps!!!! :b
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#8 Nov 15 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I can picture the epic DOL quests now.
"tomorrow we're going to launch an attack on the enemy stronghold. I think these 3 trees may get in the way. You're job is to go cut down those trees"


Oh c'mon, we all know we need those trees so we can create battering rams for the Roegies to hoist while the Lallas dance jigs to distract the defenders of the walls....
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#9 Nov 15 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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Azurymber wrote:
To start with I'm rank 50mrd and have completed all the current story quests/missions.

In all I have been immensely dissapointed. The story starts off really good, and then starts to get kind of lame once you leave your main city. There were so many times where you got to see an -epic- cutscene, only to be dissapointed by a completely lame battle. And other times you just ran around the world for 5 lines of dialogue and then back.

Does anyone think this is due to crafters + gatherers and SE's decision to make missions completeable by all jobs? I think due to this, it has become impossible to create an "epic" boss battle, and has forced almost every mission to be easily completable. In reality, you could probably complete every mission so far with a level 1 job.

The following is a summary of the missions that seem like they will be epic and then let you down.


First "epic" mission: You go to gridania, and the empire attacks the sylphs. you see these awesome machines attacking and all these troops.... then you get to the fight.
The fight is essentially running around and avoiding 3-4 soldiers which aren't exactly difficult to avoid. Fighting them isn't even difficult. So essentially its 20 minutes of running. There are no machines anywhere, just weak foot soldiers.

Second "epic" mission: you go to ul'dah and try to break up some beastman fight.
Aside from the fact that fighting 2 beastmen isn't really epic, you can just play parley and beat this fight easily. Overall theres nothing epic about this at all. In the cutscene it makes it look like the beastmen will be fighting each other. but in reality they just run in circles and don't even agro (at least they didn't agro me)

Third "epic" mission: zomg ifrit. Super hardcore looking, and about to attack you. But that would be too fun for this game. Instead you fight or parley some "controlled" people and then fight/parley some beastmen. Once again, not epic at all.

Fourth "epic" mission: run alllllllllll the way to nine ivies, then follow your npc guy for 5-10 min with no mobs in the way. Then fight 2 weak hyenas. Get a few lines of pointless dialogue. now run allllllllllllll the way back to ul'dah.

Fifth "epic" mission: Final current mission. You run to mor'dhona and try to pull off some super epic attack on the empire. So guess what happens. You follow 3 imperial soldiers for 5 min, then run in circles and let a machine blow them up. then you chase a guy a bit and your done.




Overall the point is so far this game doesn't have a single epic fight or epic boss battle. Nothing takes hardcore skill to beat. You never feel like you're really accomplishing anything, just hitting easy-prey mobs. Like ffxi had an epic dragon fight at early levels, and then some other pretty epic fights, even in the original missions. ffxiv (and i realize its not ffxi) just has a lot of running and a few seconds of easy fighting. Due to the class system this seems to be all the game will ever be able to deliver story-wise.

Has anyone else felt the same disappointment?

On a positive note, the final cutscene for the current missions makes it look like the game will get A LOT better storywise (because tbh right now the story is all over the place).



I don't think its the fault of DoH or DoL. Just take a look at FFXI'S TOAU and forth. Ever since SE patched CoP they've screwed up the difficulty on missions. Its pretty much grinding your teeth and getting through it.
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#10 Nov 15 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I don't think its the fault of DoH or DoL. Just take a look at FFXI'S TOAU and forth. Ever since SE patched CoP they've screwed up the difficulty on missions. Its pretty much grinding your teeth and getting through it.


What?

His point is that everything is solable, everything is cake, and there's no epic battles that require more coordination than just being able to rotate your analog stick twice.

I agree that there is too much emphasis on crafting as "main" jobs and everything else had to be sort of watered down to compensate. I don't begrudge you crafters your feelings of accomplishment, I just wish it didn't have to come at the expense of the rest of the game.
#11 Nov 15 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
I don't think its the fault of DoH or DoL. Just take a look at FFXI'S TOAU and forth. Ever since SE patched CoP they've screwed up the difficulty on missions. Its pretty much grinding your teeth and getting through it.


What?

His point is that everything is solable, everything is cake, and there's no epic battles that require more coordination than just being able to rotate your analog stick twice.

I agree that there is too much emphasis on crafting as "main" jobs and everything else had to be sort of watered down to compensate. I don't begrudge you crafters your feelings of accomplishment, I just wish it didn't have to come at the expense of the rest of the game.


That's what I'm saying. SE adjusted CoP's difficulty (made it easier) and ever so on (look at TOAU's battles) nothing's really been challenging. You just have grind your teeth and do the grunt work of running around, finding the places and spamming a few attacks over and over to get through.

Epicness died on chains of promathia.




TOAU's alexander battle was sort of cool, but that's it for the expansion (had an awesome plot though, just no challenging battles).
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#12 Nov 15 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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TOAU had some really hard battles, like the yagudo that cloned itself. And then WoTG had some pretty hard ones too, and some that you could solo but that were challenging. Then the 3 mini-expansions were VERY hard, i lost maybe 20 times to the boss of acp.

I don't think a battle necessarily needs to be hard to be epic. It can be easy, just made to -seem- hard. Like let you fight some crazy looking badguy with some hardcore moves who transforms mid battle, and maybe requires different weapon skills to break parts of the armor off. Just something that feels epic, instead of constantly fighting weak footsoldiers.
Basically a boss you would -want- to fight again.
#13 Nov 15 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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Difficulty could be more of the issue than just catering to the DoH/DoLs. Overall it's extremely easy right now no matter what you're doing. Which was somethin' we often discussed in the months before release. How far would they go to cater towards the casual crowd that might hurt those who want more of a challenge? So far it seems they went overboard in that direction and I can see why people are questioning if funner, more involved content is upcoming. Makes you wonder if future content will continue to be so easy. It's mainly a lot of walking and cutscenes with little action. The toughest moments I've had were maneuvering my weaver around 1-shot killer aggro in coerthas & mor dhona. Just seems like it's setup to be nearly impossible to ever fail sometimes. Again, I'm cool with the main storyline being that way as long as more difficult content is added.

Like you said though, not necessarily super hard...but something that gives you that sense of accomplishment afterward. Not thinking "Geez, any idiot could've grabbed the controller and done that for me." And that's kind of the empty feeling you get from some of the content. No risk of failures...



Edited, Nov 15th 2010 7:01pm by TwistedOwl
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#14 Nov 15 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I just bought this game.. just starting.. and now I'm seeing the reasons why no one is being social in game and such. Is this game really that easy to solo? Oh god, please don't tell me this is another MSPOG (Massively Single Player Online Game). I play MMO's to socialize!
#15 Nov 15 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Licki wrote:
I just bought this game.. just starting.. and now I'm seeing the reasons why no one is being social in game and such. Is this game really that easy to solo? Oh god, please don't tell me this is another MSPOG (Massively Single Player Online Game). I play MMO's to socialize!


After level 20 you need to party. Well, you can still solo, but its gonna take ages to do a level.
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#16 Nov 15 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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I'll be honest and say that SE's idea that any class, DoW, DoM, DoH and DoL, can progress through the story missions is a bad idea.

Like many have said already, it means that there are no epic battles in the storyline. Everything can be soloed.

This takes away a lot of the fun, difficult and social milestones in the game. Like in FFXI, we had to gather groups for the missions, level cap quests and sometimes even to get access to new areas.

What I miss is people shouting in towns for help with so-and-so quest. Being able to join people to help or get help for quests. This is what brings the community together.

I've said before that FFXIV lacks the need for players helping each other and therefore losing the community spirit and got rated down for it.

I am still enjoying FFXIV, there is sooo much potential but so far it has been a very solo adventure apart from possible party grinds, which are very rare due to the party system being more complicated and not as used as FFXI's system.



#17 Nov 15 2010 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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All I have to say is that if they add content that benefits from bringing a crafter along to do something, they'd better add entirely new UIs and processes for it. As it is now, I just don't see it...

Gladiator> Quickly, armorer! Replace the statue's magic helmet so that it comes to life and smites our evil foes!
Armorer> By Halone's doming hammer, I'm on it! Syyyyyyyyyyyynthesiiiiiiize!

<Your leatherworking skill is not high enough to attempt this synthesis.>

Gladiator> Can you do it?!?!
Armorer> Have no fear, noble warrior! This helmet recipe is no match for me!

<This synthesis requires larger-scale accommodations.>

Gladiator> You must hurry!!
Armorer> Preserrrrrrrve! Rapiiiiiiiid syyyyyyyynthesiiiiiiiis!!!!

*combat party: schwing! crackle! WHOOSH!! BANG! SLICE! Sizzle!*
*armorer: tink tink....tink tink tink...*

<You use Rapid Synthesis. Your attempt fails!
Durability decreases by 34.
The harnessed umbral element becomes unstable!>

Gladiator> Is it almost done??!
Armorer> Naw, we're ****** lol
#18 Nov 15 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe they could include DoH in battles. Like have lava monsters that destroy your weapon's durability in just a few hits, and give blacksmiths a way to reduce the wear and even slowly repair them target skills.
Armorers could repair a tank's gear while he tanks a golem or something that really tears through his armor.
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#19 Nov 15 2010 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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I don't care for the solo missions. I've always wanted a game from SE I could solo exp if I wanted, but I always thought missions/quests/NMs should be grouped. It's just doesn't feel very boss-y when I can take the thing down without even hitting 50% health...
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#20 Nov 15 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm only R27 but I agree so far. Actually the story was pretty great coming from Grid missions right up till the 26 one. It was pathetic. All these crazy visions of pretty epic stuff. Then just an epic amount of running and wishing I had anima. Seems the good start goes nowhere by what you said. Disappointing.
#21 Nov 15 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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I was hoping that's what the 15-person parties were for, so Disciples of War/Magic can do the fighting while DoL/DoH stand back and watch or something. I don't see any reason why they had to nerf the gameplay aspect for boss battles in that regard. I could see it being a problem if FFXI-like 6-man party constraints were an issue, but this is blowing it way out of proportion.

How disappointing. :(
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#22 Nov 15 2010 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
I was hoping that's what the 15-person parties were for, so Disciples of War/Magic can do the fighting while DoL/DoH stand back and watch or something. I don't see any reason why they had to nerf the gameplay aspect for boss battles in that regard. I could see it being a problem if FFXI-like 6-man party constraints were an issue, but this is blowing it way out of proportion.

How disappointing. :(


There have been no boss battles that I've heard of yet. Just because the mob happens to be in an instance as part of a mission sequence doesn't make it a boss. Just because it's big and ugly (ala goobbue in Ul'dah intro sequence) doesn't make it a boss.

SE is new to designing and tuning a game for casual accessibility. It will be a while before they figure out a formula that works for them and the majority of their players. It seems that for the time being in terms of difficulty they've decided to err on the side of accessibility, which is not to say future missions and further content additions won't ramp up the challenge factor.
#23 Nov 15 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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well...I'm one of those DoL/DoH only people messing it up for everyone I guess.

Having no combat class past rank 1, any and ALL battles are epic battles when my one move is to throw a rock at it. I've actually held off on doing the storyline quest because if a fight is involved in any of them there is nothing I can do (other then repair my armor as the monster rips into it)
#24 Nov 15 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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I guess they could put DoH classes into the quest building like catapults with DoL classes getting the mats. One makes wooden frame while another makes leather straps to hold the rocks. Someone makes the rope. All that good crap. And when the actual fights starts they can all flick pebbles at the enemies in hopes of the "plink" sound the pebbles make hitting the armor would be enough to make them surrender.
#25 Nov 15 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
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For some reason, all those talk about quitting as SE is finally gonna charge did not make me want to quit.

But, having mission being boringly easy makes me want to quit.

I mean, I understand the story must cater for those non-combat classes, but when I worked my *** out with a combat class, I want an epic fight!!! I don't want to just run around and fight like a sissy after I have pumped millions worth of exp in my combat abilities.

Tanaka did say that the biggest challenge was to create something hard enough for hardcore, and easy enough for casuals, but in my opinion, they seemed to have sucked on both ends.

I don't know, this is quite disappointing. I haven't felt my blood pumping ever since I played. I haven't done anything to the effect of Burning circle dragon fight, or shadowlord fight... Those were early fights, and I feel excited just thinking about it.

although I have been frustrated by the fact that it took me hours upon hours shouting to get something together so I can have some possibilities of winning a fight. I remember having to spend hundreds of thousands of gils to buy anima or necessary stuff for people who join the team to do missions. however, in the end, I felt my hard work meant something.

it seems ffxiv is like ffxiii where you are just putting in a lot of efforts to watch some nicely done cutscenes...

i hope it's not the case :( sad
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#26 Nov 16 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
All I have to say is that if they add content that benefits from bringing a crafter along to do something, they'd better add entirely new UIs and processes for it. As it is now, I just don't see it...

Gladiator> Quickly, armorer! Replace the statue's magic helmet so that it comes to life and smites our evil foes!
Armorer> By Halone's doming hammer, I'm on it! Syyyyyyyyyyyynthesiiiiiiize!

<Your leatherworking skill is not high enough to attempt this synthesis.>

Gladiator> Can you do it?!?!
Armorer> Have no fear, noble warrior! This helmet recipe is no match for me!

<This synthesis requires larger-scale accommodations.>

Gladiator> You must hurry!!
Armorer> Preserrrrrrrve! Rapiiiiiiiid syyyyyyyynthesiiiiiiiis!!!!

*combat party: schwing! crackle! WHOOSH!! BANG! SLICE! Sizzle!*
*armorer: tink tink....tink tink tink...*

<You use Rapid Synthesis. Your attempt fails!
Durability decreases by 34.
The harnessed umbral element becomes unstable!>

Gladiator> Is it almost done??!
Armorer> Naw, we're @#%^ed lol



I laughed so ******* hard........this is hilarious!
#27 Nov 16 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
40 posts
This is sort of on-topic, but the quests for the DOW are ridiculously easy as well. Some of them don't even require fighting... just running around talking to people. The first fight lasted 5 seconds. I spent more time putting up buffs.
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#28 Nov 16 2010 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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theredchaser wrote:
This is sort of on-topic, but the quests for the DOW are ridiculously easy as well. Some of them don't even require fighting... just running around talking to people. The first fight lasted 5 seconds. I spent more time putting up buffs.


Yup, if you're @ the right rank(and you have to be to start the quest) it's really easy for those when there is a fight. Like I mentioned, it's pretty much setup to be near impossible to fail and that equals boring. There are ways they can make the content more challenging & epic. Both for DoW/DoMs and DoH/DoLs. Already you have options in some of the quests to go the route of fighting or negotiating. Just expand on that, make each route more challenging & unique, problem solved.

This next one is an example of a DoH quest...So here's a pretty decent storyline involving some gloves I need to craft with Thanalan Spider Silk. Had to walk to Copperbell Mines for a cutscene to find the lalafell got herself trapped in the spiderwebs.(The silk has to be used fresh to work properly of course) So now I have to pick the silk off of her 1 at a time and craft the gloves needed for the quest. Which will also free her from the web and potentially becoming spider food. Sounds like a pretty good quest, but really she's just standing there dazed. No spiders to be seen. And not even a timer to give me a sense of urgency.(Of course I would've considered losing on purpose if it meant a sweet cutscene of spiders attacking her = D) But basically it's just me taking long walks, crafting some gloves on the spot, then another long walk back to uldah. A cool story yes, but at least gimme a timer that puts some pressure on.
And I bring that up because that seems to be how it is for most things. Good story, but there could be much more entertaining & challenging gameplay along with it. Even in DoW-specific or DoH-specific quests it is so easy you don't feel you've accomplished much besides walking great distances. I still have hope that future content can be more exciting because the potential is there for it.(I know people love the word potential on here = D) And they did say they would implement more challenging future content. So if they decided everyone is entitled to viewing the main storyline and earning guildmarks/progressing through the class-specific quests and made it extremely easy to do so...I'm cool with it based on the hope that future content will be much better.(Now I sound like a broken record on the subject, but felt like reiterating that it's not just the fault of DoH/DoLs that the content is bland & easy)

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 4:09am by TwistedOwl
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#29 Nov 16 2010 at 5:37 AM Rating: Decent
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315 posts
ummmmmmmm the game just launched.... epic not even on the menu. epic don't happen till mid of the current story. we are just starting to read it.
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