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EDITORIAL: Did the extended free trial hurt FFXIV?Follow

#102 Nov 16 2010 at 5:50 PM Rating: Default
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another month of the editorials points abt posters to remain
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#103 Nov 16 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P
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#104 Nov 16 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P


Any WoW tourist waiting for Cataclysm has long since left. They just woulden't have the patience to deal with the BS.
#105thehellfire, Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 6:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow
#106 Nov 16 2010 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This kind of behavior would have never been allowed in the FFXI forums, but that’s because Final Fantasy XI wasn’t populated by players who hated playing the game.


Even though this is true to a large extent, a good portion of those players are probably also still playing because of the community. I would say the majority of the people still on these forums and games are people who want to see XIV do well. That being said there are also two categories of people wanting to see XIV do well: The ones who undoubtedly believe it is going to be awesome and the ones who are still wary of the changes. Just because we are still wary of the changes and aren't fully committing I don't think we are any worse to the community than the fanbois and we are most definitely more productive than the haters....all in all I'd say the responses in the past month on these boards have been pretty accurate in terms of response to the game with the occasional, expected, outlier.
#107 Nov 16 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk
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#108 Nov 16 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Default
Galkaholics wrote:
ya know.. the ppl who didnt start til the very last day of free 60 days aka oct 25th.. will be here for both nov and dec patches still playing for free

its all of us who preordered and got CE and SE day 1 of release ect that are screwed.

its not rly fair that in 5 days my crysta is going to have its first chunk taken out yet peple who started late will still be on for free

ive said it many times. i put $50 in crysta on day 1 before i even made my first character and began playing.. i had that much blind faith in this game...

i know i COULD cancel before the 21st and keep my crysta , but also its not like i can get it refunded..

so instead ill just keep playing.. and even tho i complain ALOT which most of you know well.. my blind faith in FFXIV will keep me here at least til my crysta is all gone,, aka 3 more months


i have a bad feeling my blind faith will be a waste but i still hold onto hope that my gut feeling of knowing everything this game CAN be, might someday be a reality



You are paying the price of not being able to wait the normal release like most ppl.
#109 Nov 16 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk


Not really. WoW saw it's growth peak right around WotLK, not after.
#110 Nov 16 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Default
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KujaKoF wrote:
Taemek wrote:
Wloire wrote:

What Zhorvan means but is utterly failing to say is that generally retailers have a sort of insurance policy so that if 100 000 copies remain unsold after a certain amount of time they get their money back. So in a couple months time if those copies don't sell then thats money out of SE's pocket.
As such you can't really count sales until they are sold to the customer.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 6:32pm by Wloire


Oh, yes I fully agree, but thats why I said that it's not naive to assume there is 200k or so people playing the game and you said maybe 100k.

People need to slow down when reading and let things sink in before having a knee jerk spasm typing eractically like an angry man possessed.



You seemed to imply that the 630,000 units represented people who actually sat down and created accounts.


Ask yourself, how does 50% of 630k equal 200k? I was implying that they have likely sold 400k of that 630k and 50% of that 400k has likely unsubbed. I guess I will have to spell everything out in future posts.


KujaKoF wrote:
Taemek wrote:
I don't think it's naive to assume there is roughly 200k people playing the game who enjoy it imho.


Personally, I think its naive to think that 200k people actually installed their copies of the game.


I used to think it was naive to think that data could be broken down and sent across fiber optic lines and reconstructed into text on my Monochrome monitor, but here we are today...
#111 Nov 16 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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Wloire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk


Not really. WoW saw it's growth peak right around WotLK, not after.


I wonder what that giant dip was.
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#112 Nov 16 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Wloire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk


Not really. WoW saw it's growth peak right around WotLK, not after.


yes really, after the BC subs increased, after wolkt subs increased, after cata they will increase
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#113 Nov 16 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Wloire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk


Not really. WoW saw it's growth peak right around WotLK, not after.


I wonder what that giant dip was.


Wrath of the lich king was banned in china, so thats what that giant dip means, and the giant recovery was then it was unbanned
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#114 Nov 16 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I see it this way - the flames have fuel. What I personally have been dissatisfied with is the slow pace of the updates to the game. When you see that something is broken and not being fixed it tends to weigh on your decision to log in from day to day. I feel like they should have released these updates gradually instead of in 3 big packages, or at least implemented them a few at a time in between large updates. That would have restored a lot of faith that things were getting better, especially among those who do not browse forums that often. When you see how quickly Rapid Synthesis was nerfed, then look at how slow they've been to fix some of the other problems, it gives the impression of a lack of concern for real issues. I remember reading a big flame war over the updates and fixes to the Lodestone site. The big complaint there was that there were more important fixes that was needed and instead that's what we got. Players and forum browsers didn't know why (and we still don't) the updates to the game have been slow. We just know they've been slow.

I guess you could say the free trial gave players the opportunity to see the game broken for longer, but in my opinion that wasn't the root cause for the anger and frustration so many expressed. The fact that we weren't seeing the game get better over the 2 months since release was the real reason.
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#115 Nov 16 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Wloire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk


Not really. WoW saw it's growth peak right around WotLK, not after.


I wonder what that giant dip was.


That grabbed my attention as well and now I am curious George.
#116 Nov 16 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Wloire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk


Not really. WoW saw it's growth peak right around WotLK, not after.


I wonder what that giant dip was.


Wrath of the lich king was banned in china, so thats what that giant dip means, and the giant recovery was then it was unbanned


Ah, that makes sense. Also, it's funny to look graphically at roughly how many of WoW's 12 million are just in China.
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#117 Nov 16 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Ah, that makes sense. Also, it's funny to look graphically at roughly how many of WoW's 12 million are just in China.


Aion and Warhammer were also released at that time I believe, so some of that drop could be attributed to those game's releases.
#118 Nov 16 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Wloire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk


Not really. WoW saw it's growth peak right around WotLK, not after.


I wonder what that giant dip was.


Wrath of the lich king was banned in china, so thats what that giant dip means, and the giant recovery was then it was unbanned


That was years ago, not last year. I am thinking that chart doesn't correspond to the actual *real* timeline correctly.
#119 Nov 16 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Taemek wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Wloire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I don't think the extended trial hurt them, if anything it helped them retain some customers, also there is probably 90-100k people playing this game(Tops 150K). Till cataclyms that is :P

The only subs that Cataclysm will bring is zero. Wow addicts are already playing wow


Not true, every expansion they release the subs increase a few million :) or do you think wow had 12 mil subs at release in vanilla times ? tsk tsk


Not really. WoW saw it's growth peak right around WotLK, not after.


I wonder what that giant dip was.


Wrath of the lich king was banned in china, so thats what that giant dip means, and the giant recovery was then it was unbanned


That was years ago, not last year. I am thinking that chart doesn't correspond to the actual *real* timeline correctly.


That was by the end of 2008, so 2 years ago give or take a few months, but thats what that big dive in the chart means, even the blues in wow forums acknoledge it
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#120 Nov 16 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Taemek wrote:
That was years ago, not last year. I am thinking that chart doesn't correspond to the actual *real* timeline correctly.

You can do a Google search and see that Wrath was banned in China 2008-2009.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 7:45pm by CatPredator
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#121 Nov 16 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ah, that makes sense. Also, it's funny to look graphically at roughly how many of WoW's 12 million are just in China.


Don't be surprised if FFXIV has more Chinese subscribers than NA/EU/JP subscribers even if SE turns this boat around. China has a humongous middle class emerging, they are going to run the show in all aspects of the commercial market until their resources fail.
#122 Nov 16 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos needs to write an editorial about how an AH will hurt FFXIV and we'll get one in two days.


Ha, I was thinking the exact same thing, only perhaps writing about how giving me $1,000,000 would hurt the game.
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#123 Nov 16 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
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To be honest the first extended free trial didnt really help much, but the second one that was just announced on lodestone "promises" to help me decide whether or not to keep playing.
#124 Nov 16 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
I see it this way - the flames have fuel. What I personally have been dissatisfied with is the slow pace of the updates to the game. When you see that something is broken and not being fixed it tends to weigh on your decision to log in from day to day. I feel like they should have released these updates gradually instead of in 3 big packages, or at least implemented them a few at a time in between large updates. That would have restored a lot of faith that things were getting better, especially among those who do not browse forums that often. When you see how quickly Rapid Synthesis was nerfed, then look at how slow they've been to fix some of the other problems, it gives the impression of a lack of concern for real issues. I remember reading a big flame war over the updates and fixes to the Lodestone site. The big complaint there was that there were more important fixes that was needed and instead that's what we got. Players and forum browsers didn't know why (and we still don't) the updates to the game have been slow. We just know they've been slow.

I guess you could say the free trial gave players the opportunity to see the game broken for longer, but in my opinion that wasn't the root cause for the anger and frustration so many expressed. The fact that we weren't seeing the game get better over the 2 months since release was the real reason.


Yeah, I agree. I've been overall pretty positive about the game and most of the time I enjoy playing it. (I would be playing now but I am trying to clean my house and this is the next step on my procrastination wheel).

That said certain things have driven me batty - not being able to get a second retainer has made it UNPLEASANT - purely UNPLEASANT to level DoL skills - and I want to make it clear that I actually WANT to rank up and I enjoy playing DoL (I actually find it harder than crafting - I can easily watch TV and craft but I find I fail a lot if I don't pay attention while playing DoL). But never having more than 5, maybe 10 spots open in my inventory at any time just drives me nuts, and I can't enjoy playing DoL if I have no room to hoard my shinies.

So the extra free month ... it did less to make me happy about the game than making me pay and providing this one fix would have. Now I realize customers are individuals and not everyone has the same issue as me, but I think the point is for each person - even among those who generally like the game - there is that ONE annoying issue that just makes them crazy that they just wish SE would have gotten their act together and fixed by now.

If SE had done a major fix last night - say they added a ward search function, or they implemented changes to recipes - I would be a tad dissapointed that they hadn't fixed the retainer situation, but I would have been gracious about it - and I would have been able to think "oh, they were busy working on that" ... anyway - that said - Two months for a major patch is not terrible - especially if those two months are free - but I hope that the November update adds a fair amount of stuff. If all the best fixes are in December - especially if it isn't at WORST mid December - the game will be crippled at least until PS3 release.
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#125 Nov 16 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Taemek wrote:

Your problem is you assume to know real figures, when you don't know any, at all, period.

Your problem is you assume to know SE's profit margins, when you don't, at all, period.

Your problem is that you have no idea that a game could have a subcriber base as small as 30k people and still make a profit, but you can't seem to grasp that, at all, period.

Would it be safe to assume that considering the information we know, they sold 630k copies of the game and lets say 50% of those have stopped playing, the ones who remain and play OR are interested in helping the game progress by sticking around and giving solid, factual and rational feedback could easily carry this game forward into the future until March PS3 release hits which will then inject the community with more fan based orientated people and drown out the nay-sayers, trolls and haters? Yes, very very likely.

I don't think it's naive to assume there is roughly 200k people playing the game who enjoy it imho. People need to learn that SE's immediate market exsists on the Console platform, not the PC so obviously, sales are going to look bad for the PC version because FF on the PC doesn't have a massive following, however, on the PS3, millions upon millions of untapped potential that have yet to be injected into this community.


So wait... you are calling someone out about assuming figures, yet you do the same thing 3 times in 2 paragraphs. Hypocrisy ftw?. Not even gonna bother tearing apart your argument because you are just a really bad troll.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 10:22pm by BartelX
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#126 Nov 16 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, I just read Thayos's editorial. It's clear you're trying to play devil's advocate here so here are my thoughts. So moving on to my first point, imagine if SE never gave any kind of extension at all. Well because this is a MMO you need a lot of players to make the game feel like a true virtual world, happy or disgruntled it doesn't matter, you just need people in general. Otherwise the game feels like it's half dead and thus the game has no community. In other words, SE needed "people in the seats" to turn this around.

My second point covers your "olive branch" theory. SE released FFXIV already knowing the Devs spent most of the Beta phase fixing glitches within the game, not streamlining content or tweaking controls. So when FFXIV launched and failed to obtain the sales figures SE projected due to the failures of the game, they made the game free to play to offset that. I hardly call that a peace offering. It was more like this. "Yeah, we messed up so here we'll let you play for free and be our guinea pigs." While some people might enjoy playing an unfinished Beta game, most of us were insulted and promptly quit. Those that have stuck around are probably hoping that their money spent on hardware upgrades to play this wasn't all for nothing. The extension is a deadline for most people and rightfully so. If SE cannot correct enough flaws to make the game playable for us, why should we pay for it?

I'll agree the flame wars aren't helping matters as far as the community is concerned. That being true, we have an ignore feature for a reason on the forums. If someone is trolling or otherwise offending you, just ignore them. The gripes about the game are spot on though. The truth seems to hurt and most fanboys don't want to hear it. FFXIV took more than 5 years to produce while SE had 9 years of MMO experience from FFXI. The game's flaws are just too great for a veteran company to miss the mark making such obvious novice mistakes. You would think that FFXIV was SE's first attempt at making a MMO. Of course FFXI had problems too at launch, but it feels like SE hasn't learned anything in the past 9 years that truly bothers me.

I don't believe the extension hurt FFXIV's success ratio at all. If anything, it improved their chances because some people are still holding out hope. Granted most people are using the extension free trials as deadlines, still that doesn't change the fact that most people would of gave up altogether had SE not done this. It was their fault in the first place by releasing the game in a Beta stage. So SE must make the effort to resolve the problem, not us. They've lost the trust of long-time fans with this disaster and that not only only hurts FFXIV success, but the entire future of the FF franchise. The ball is in SE's court now to save itself.
#127 Nov 17 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Final Fantasy XIV would have lost some subscribers had Square Enix not extended the free trial period. However, wouldn’t those cancellations have come from the people who dislike the game the most? Aren’t those the people who are most responsible for the hostile, unstable attitude that has permeated the forums? And what would the state of the game’s online community be like if those people had been gone for the past three weeks?


This sword has two edges to it. I really wish you had been around for the alpha/beta testing and seen those forums. I was blasted on a daily basis for trying to get people to expose the issues that have plagued this game through it's release. People mistook my criticism for negativity. If you have a friend heading for disaster you speak up and tell them even if you think it might mean hurting their feelings. People were so protective of this company during testing when it mattered most that they basically got a free pass to do whatever the **** they wanted. So many excuses and apologies were made for SE by the fans, but none were made by them to the fans... until now. They should have started this before release.

Thayos wrote:
But the damage may already be done.

The constant apologies we've seen since release are a slap in the face. Why? They had to have known that this game wasn't ready. They admitted that they knew it wasn't ready. Yet you still saw the confident(almost arrogant) claims of how grand this product would be. They completely ****** themselves over. They could have waited at least until December since they're not collecting any subscription fees til then anyway. It is infinitely easier to develop and fix a game that is not 100% live. The damage is self-inflicted and they seem to like it.

A large number of players who would have started regardless of other MMOs that would release first, canceling their accounts. Other prospective subscribers taking a serious look at other options due to the mistakes. All because they wanted to beat the competition to market. Nevermind that the game is hardly playable... that's just horrible business sense. It's really hard to understand the priorities and even harder to invest in that kind of thinking.


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#128Taemek, Posted: Nov 17 2010 at 1:19 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Edited, Nov 17th 2010 2:58am by Taemek
#129 Nov 17 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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... another free month? I hope their box sales are covering their payment to the dev team...

I don't get what is up with Square Enix. Instead of "promising" large extravagent incoming updates? Why can't they shower us with "small updates" to prove to their customers that they are indeed working hard? Giving free months is easy, you hit a button and boom free sub month for everyone.
The reason I have always called Square Enix's promise empty and fake is because they are using obvious marketing techniques to stall as long as possible so that they can push out the updates that they have already claim to be in the works.. Chances are they are no where near the completion of these updates or else they would already shell updates out like crazy in order to "regain trust."

I bet nothing special will happen this month.. I heard they are pushing a speed update during thanksgiving.. I bet that update will be a few bug flatten updates.. that no one cares about..
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#130 Nov 17 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Default
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Wloire wrote:
Taemek wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Taemek wrote:
And how many times have you seen this response: “If you hate the game that much, then why are you still here?”

The answer, of course, is because Square Enix is letting them play for free.

Final Fantasy XIV would have lost some subscribers had Square Enix not extended the free trial period. However, wouldn’t those cancellations have come from the people who dislike the game the most? Aren’t those the people who are most responsible for the hostile, unstable attitude that has permeated the forums? And what would the state of the game’s online community be like if those people had been gone for the past three weeks?


This, QFT.

SE need to come to terms that no matter what they do, certain individuals now are only hanging around because it is free to play.

SE need to cut thier losses with these types of players and move onto keeping the ones they got who are happy about the up and coming changes and also the ones who are still actively playing.

Worst case sceanrio, cut thier bad players who do not contribute to the game at all and merge a few servers together to bump those populations up a tad to be on par with the more populated ones.

I agree 100% with your editorial, if you give humanity and inch, they will take a mile.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 5:13pm by Taemek


Could it possibly be that they looked at how many cancellations there were and realized there were FAR more leaving (those unhappy) than were staying (those happy and/or "loyal") and then realized they couldn't justify the expense of the game solely on the numbers that would remain, therefore it was imperative to hold on to those "unhappy" players for another month in order to attempt to make them "happy" players via the updates?


Your problem is you assume to know real figures, when you don't know any, at all, period.

Your problem is you assume to know SE's profit margins, when you don't, at all, period.

Your problem is that you have no idea that a game could have a subcriber base as small as 30k people and still make a profit, but you can't seem to grasp that, at all, period.

Would it be safe to assume that considering the information we know, they sold 630k copies of the game and lets say 50% of those have stopped playing, the ones who remain and play OR are interested in helping the game progress by sticking around and giving solid, factual and rational feedback could easily carry this game forward into the future until March PS3 release hits which will then inject the community with more fan based orientated people and drown out the nay-sayers, trolls and haters? Yes, very very likely.

I don't think it's naive to assume there is roughly 200k people playing the game who enjoy it imho. People need to learn that SE's immediate market exsists on the Console platform, not the PC so obviously, sales are going to look bad for the PC version because FF on the PC doesn't have a massive following, however, on the PS3, millions upon millions of untapped potential that have yet to be injected into this community. You will also find that console players are more content with a product because once you buy it, you own it, there is no forums or channels to cry a river on because you hate the current game play, you ethier like it or you don't and walk away from it. PC gamers on the other hand are more likely to vent, cry, whine, create destructive posts claiming they have real numbers, facts and truths when honestly, they have zip, nada, nought, a big fat whopping ZERO, they have nothing.

People in general need to learn to like a product for what it is, not what you want to make it. Yes, before you take this out of context because your so good at it, the fundamentals for this game are here, the updates are not changing the fundamentals of the game that it has been designed upon. I see alot of peoples problems with the game is the fundamentals and foundation of which it has be designed on and thats not going to change, so you are ethier going to like the game after the updates OR you won't like it and you will have no other choice but too move on as no amount of whining and complaining will help you after the next 30 days free has expired.

I'd like to suggest that people over the next few weeks take a long hard look at what aspects of the game they don't like and refer to the patch notes up and coming and try to read between the vague lines they have given in terms of what is changing and how it will effect you as players here in the world of Erozea, because it just might happen that you could be one of those players who just don't like the basic fundamentals or foundation upon which this game has been set and if thats the case, you won't like the game in 6 months or 6 years.


What were you thinking being all logical? You're going to get flamed to ****.

If I could make an educated guess I'd put the people who stay at the 70-100k region though. About 3-4 thousand subs per server.


ON NOES......I was sub-defaulted......lol doesn't surprise me anymore with the people we are dealing with on these forums. Some people have the reading comprehension level of a 4 year old.

Good call though Wloire.
#131 Nov 17 2010 at 2:09 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry but this editorial was the Pikko thread all over again.

You start by saying
Quote:
Despite the unfinished state of the game, one of the biggest problems with Final Fantasy XIV has nothing to do with the game itself.

Flaming and bickering engulfed the community fan sites shortly after launch day

You started off with the reason for the negativity, and then completely went into denial about it for the rest of the article. And indirectly keep repeating this the whole time : "It's not the game that's ruining the game it's the community!"

Sorry but you're wrong. As I explained in great detail in Pikko's thread; The community will be positive when the game stops ******* users off. Blaming the community is attacking the result and not the cause. This editorial should have been roasting SE as the prime cause of damage to your forum community. Then it would have been another one of your impactful editorials.

CAUSE:
Quote:
Despite the unfinished state of the game, one of the biggest problems with Final Fantasy XIV has nothing to do with the game itself.

EFFECT:
Quote:
Flaming and bickering engulfed the community fan sites shortly after launch day (hmmmmmm!)


It was extremely positive around here before launch, and went to **** after launch when people realized nothing changed and no feedback was implemented from beta. SE directly caused the downturn in the community spirit. Stop blaming the victims.

I think it's clear SE has had it's hands stubbornly latched on the wheel of this crashing Hindenberg from the start. And here you are, focusing blame on the frantic passengers.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 3:20am by RattyBatty
____________________________
Minecraft : My anti-MMO
Terraria : My anti-Minecraft
#132 Nov 17 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Default
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169 posts
RattyBatty wrote:
Sorry but this editorial was the Pikko thread all over again.

You start by saying
Quote:
Despite the unfinished state of the game, one of the biggest problems with Final Fantasy XIV has nothing to do with the game itself.

Flaming and bickering engulfed the community fan sites shortly after launch day

You started off with the reason for the negativity, and then completely went into denial about it for the rest of the article. And indirectly keep repeating this the whole time : "It's not the game that's ruining the game it's the community!"

Sorry but you're wrong. As I explained in great detail in Pikko's thread; The community will be positive when the game stops ******* users off. Blaming the community is attacking the result and not the cause. This editorial should have been roasting SE as the prime cause of damage to your forum community. Then it would have been another one of your impactful editorials.

CAUSE:
Quote:
Despite the unfinished state of the game, one of the biggest problems with Final Fantasy XIV has nothing to do with the game itself.

EFFECT:
Quote:
Flaming and bickering engulfed the community fan sites shortly after launch day (hmmmmmm!)


It was extremely positive around here before launch, and went to **** after launch when people realized nothing changed and no feedback was implemented from beta. SE directly caused the downturn in the community spirit. Stop blaming the victims.

I think it's clear SE has had it's hands stubbornly latched on the wheel of this crashing Hindenberg from the start. Here you are pointing fingers at the frantic passengers.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 3:19am by RattyBatty


I underlined and bolded the problem in your post, can you find it?

I would be going out on a whim here, but your attitude is the kind of attitude that Thayos is saying has killed this forums attitude.

I would like to point out that if ZAM forum mods acted a bit more harsh in terms of allowing the members here to run rampant with thier irrantional posting that was designed for nothing more then blatanly destroying the morale here, things might not have gotten so far out of hand. Most posters act like teenagers being caught ************ for the first time....

Slapping a few wrists for the overall greater good of the community never goes a stray. One of my favorite sayings is, give people an inch, they will end up taking a mile. Never ever expect an open based forum of any kind to police itself without help. It will just end up going wild.

Blaming SE for the morale here is just an easy way for people like yourself to not take responsibility for the overall atmosphere you have caused here.
#133 Nov 17 2010 at 2:31 AM Rating: Excellent
So, RattyBatty, the cause for people acting the way they do is not due to free will and choice, but SE's fault? Smiley: dubious

I suppose you could use the saying "Can't blame a dog for being a dog", but we're not dogs, we're evolved human beings. Being upset about something is no reason to lose one's head and regress regress into bickering children.

When someone chooses to say and/or do something, it's their responsibility and their choice to do so. And their's alone. Losing self control due to being upset about something is not a valid excuse. The way things have gone, you'd think the world had suddenly run out of food and people had to resort cannibalism to survive because really, that's how it's felt here lately.

Me, I'm plenty upset with the way SE went with developing and releasing XIV, but I would never start making nearly unintelligible rage threads/posts and resorting to personal attacks of other forum members. And I'm not just saying that as an Admin, either.

Also, what exactly do you feel you're a victim of?

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 12:38am by Osarion
#134 Nov 17 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Good
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You are both still ignoring that if SE had made a game that was easier to defend, and harder to hate, Nobody would be hating on it and everyone would be defending it.

The consumer mood is in direct relation to product quality. Anyone that ignores that is a fool that is bound to fail. Be it a corporation, or a user group. I marvel at how desperately people cling to blaming a perceived rival group instead of think for a second and realize they have a common cause/enemy.

If this game ever gets its act together and fixes all major issues, do you really think the negativity would remain here? REALLY? No? You think the negativity will be gone, like I do? Then guess what, you just realized what the real problem is. THE GAME.

Cause and effect. If you hate the effect, fix the cause. Any other 'fix' is only superficial.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 4:00am by RattyBatty
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#135 Nov 17 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Excellent
RattyBatty wrote:
You are both still ignoring that if SE had made a game that was easier to defend, and harder to hate, Nobody would be hating on it and everyone would be defending it.


I think you underestimate internet forums my friend Smiley: wink

You can be sure that if/when the game get's into any real shape, there will still be haters, trolls, and negativity.

I'll give this to you though, SE sure did not make the whole situation any better by releasing XIV the way it was. Nobody can really deny that. But still... at the end of the day, our actions are our own.
#136 Nov 17 2010 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'll give this to you though, SE sure did not make the whole situation any better by releasing XIV the way it was.

THERE WAS NO SITUATION BEFORE THEY RELEASED IT. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about, talking like SE fanned a fire instead of remember they SET IT.

You think this place was crawling with poison before release? I was here, the mood was great! Until the curtain fell and people realized they were sold a POS. Can you really continue to vilify them, who are rightly demanding the game they paid for and cant get a refund on be brought up to even the most basic standards of a MMO?

But I can see you're trying to come halfway to meet me a little, so I'll just leave my train of thought there.


Edited, Nov 17th 2010 4:07am by RattyBatty
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#137 Nov 17 2010 at 3:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, it will remain, because the compliants will just shift.

As I have said before, the fundamentals and foundations of this game are not changing, so if you don't like those current game defining things, it might be best to cut your losses and move on and don't look back.

There is no such thing as a game, anywhere that someone doesn't have a compliant on some level about it.
#138 Nov 17 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
But still... at the end of the day, our actions are our own.


That's not entirely true, I did many, many things not of my own free will, but because Satan demanded I do them.

Luckily, I divorced her.
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#139 Nov 17 2010 at 4:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I'll reiterate that ultimately, this if a forum for discussing Final Fantasy XIV, and good game or bad, that's what people will do. So I have to agree with RattyBatty.

People still talk plenty about FF6, FF7, etc... They're not playing the games, they just want to talk about them. That people are still talking about XIV regardless of whether or not they're playing it should be THE LEAST SURPRISING THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED.

The reason they're saying bad things is because the game is bad. If this were another MMO, maybe not, but for any FF game, the community INCLUDES people who don't like the game. When the game is bad, the community will be vocally displeased.

But if I won't get flamed too hard for being educated, I'll explain how relationships are not always as simple as cause-> effect. In human relationships, we talk about evocative situations... where certain traits in a person will evoke certain responses in others. For example, a common philosophy in child development is that the child's upbringing and relationship with their parents is caused by the parents. But others note the importance of genetics and point out that sometimes the child's temperament can elicit reactions from the parents. In evocative relationships, both agents act against one another, typically escalating problems.

To some extent, this is the case with XIV. The game is bad, so people are vocally negative about it, which makes the game worse for those that do enjoy it.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#140 Nov 17 2010 at 5:42 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
I'll reiterate that ultimately, this if a forum for discussing Final Fantasy XIV, and good game or bad, that's what people will do. So I have to agree with RattyBatty.

People still talk plenty about FF6, FF7, etc... They're not playing the games, they just want to talk about them. That people are still talking about XIV regardless of whether or not they're playing it should be THE LEAST SURPRISING THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED.

The reason they're saying bad things is because the game is bad. If this were another MMO, maybe not, but for any FF game, the community INCLUDES people who don't like the game. When the game is bad, the community will be vocally displeased.

But if I won't get flamed too hard for being educated, I'll explain how relationships are not always as simple as cause-> effect. In human relationships, we talk about evocative situations... where certain traits in a person will evoke certain responses in others. For example, a common philosophy in child development is that the child's upbringing and relationship with their parents is caused by the parents. But others note the importance of genetics and point out that sometimes the child's temperament can elicit reactions from the parents. In evocative relationships, both agents act against one another, typically escalating problems.

To some extent, this is the case with XIV. The game is bad, so people are vocally negative about it, which makes the game worse for those that do enjoy it.


Let us talk plainly Kachi and put our differences aside and our PhD's in behavioural and mental psychology.

The truth is, people know right from wrong, however, when *allowed* to do the wrong thing, they do it with the utmost malice possible. Alot of people for the most part are abusing the freedom of speech and being irrationally vocal about things that may never change with the fundamentals and foundations of this game.

In all realility, they may never be happy with the game, even in 6+ months, then what? Keep bashing the game and trying to stir up a riot OR cut your losses and move onto another game?

The main issue I see is that majority of PC orientated MMORPG players have come acustom to whining until they get what they want and if they don't get it, they tend to attack other people who are enjoying themselves in a bid to bring them down to thier level, you know the old saying, if I can't have fun, neither can you? That applies here.

There is no I am right and you are wrong argument here or anywhere for that matter, it is simply opinions vs opinions and at the end of the day, your going to ethier enjoy the game or you won't, but the people who don't sure as **** don't need be here sh*tting in our corn flakes. It's pretty simple.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 6:44am by Taemek
#141 Nov 17 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ooooorrrr, we could just accept the fact that people will keep talking about FFXIV like they still talk about all FF games, good or bad. Like I just said. You don't need a PhD in ANYTHING to see that.

I guess you can accuse them of deliberately trying to ruin the community, too. All I can speak to is my own experiences. I have always talked about video games, and I will keep talking about them. If the game is good, I'll be here talking about how good it is. Unfortunately, it's not.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#142 Nov 17 2010 at 6:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Taemek wrote:
PC orientated MMORPG players have come acustom to whining until they get what they want and if they don't get it, they tend to attack other people who are enjoying themselves in a bid to bring them down to thier level
Constructive criticism aimed at SE is a reasonable response to a disappointing game. Flaming people on Zam isn't. If the additional 60 days of free play time and numerous admissions of lackluster development from SE haven't vindicated the critics of the game then nothing will.

Taemek wrote:
Alot of people for the most part are abusing the freedom of speech and being irrationally vocal about things that may never change with the fundamentals and foundations of this game.
Such as all of this stuff?

Taemek wrote:
your going to ethier enjoy the game or you won't, but the people who don't sure as **** don't need be here sh*tting in our corn flakes
Because there are no official boards for the game, Zam is one of the few places a person can go to be heard. The rants and complaints get old when they constantly hit on the same topics, but if you look at ANY MMORPG forum, the same questions and issues are constantly rehashed anyway. New players come in and either make simple observations or ask simple questions. A lot of this stuff was harshly critical of XIV. You can either give them a respectful reply, ignore them, be a ****, or post your own more informational, helpful threads.
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#143 Nov 17 2010 at 6:46 AM Rating: Default
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CatPredator wrote:
Taemek wrote:
PC orientated MMORPG players have come acustom to whining until they get what they want and if they don't get it, they tend to attack other people who are enjoying themselves in a bid to bring them down to thier level
Constructive criticism aimed at SE is a reasonable response to a disappointing game. Flaming people on Zam isn't. If the additional 60 days of free play time and numerous admissions of lackluster development from SE haven't vindicated the critics of the game then nothing will.

Taemek wrote:
Alot of people for the most part are abusing the freedom of speech and being irrationally vocal about things that may never change with the fundamentals and foundations of this game.
Such as all of this stuff?

Taemek wrote:
your going to ethier enjoy the game or you won't, but the people who don't sure as **** don't need be here sh*tting in our corn flakes
Because there are no official boards for the game, Zam is one of the few places a person can go to be heard. The rants and complaints get old when they constantly hit on the same topics, but if you look at ANY MMORPG forum, the same questions and issues are constantly rehashed anyway. New players come in and either make simple observations or ask simple questions. A lot of this stuff was harshly critical of XIV. You can either give them a respectful reply, ignore them, be a ****, or post your own more informational, helpful threads.


I think we all agree the game has issues but I think Taemek is saying that hearing people chant about the same issues that we all know exist -that the developers have committed to fixing -over and over and over and over and over and over - or to have people come in and psychoanalyze people who enjoy the game (claiming that we don't really enjoy it we've just tricked ourselves into thinking we do!)

Or to have people who don't even have specific complaints or have never actually played the game for more than a week - people who have said numerous times that the game is garbage and broken and unfixable (and they hope it will fail)...

it gets old. It is boring. It is not really on topic. Yeah it is marginally about final fantasy XIV - but it is mostly about people taking out their rage or getting on their soapbox or just outright trolling.

YES. There are issues. Yes - they are being fixed.

However some people won't like this game even after years of changes. The fact is this game will not appeal to everyone. And Taemek is right insofar as those people who are not going to like the game no matter what happens are not really adding anything worthwhile to these conversations.
____________________________
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#144 Nov 17 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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Blame only shows that you want the benefits without taking part in the solution.

Y'know, I just don't understand the people who support those who've quit the game yet still post negatively over here. I didn't like XII. I'm not going to XII forums just to bash the game, list off everything I didn't like. Why? No one cares. The only thing that MIGHT get me is the knowledge that someone else doesn't like it as much as I do. Which won't help me enjoy the game any more or less.

Now, in case of XIV, I do understand people wanting to stick around to see if the game improves. But beating the dead horse is getting excessive around here, we all know the problems, they've posted what they will update (and seriously, how often has SE posted what they wish to update in XI without following through? I haven't payed attention to XI for a few years and don't know how often this has happened.). Pointing out the same problems AFTER they have said how they plan on fixing it is redundant and adds nothing to the solution. At that point it's complaining for complaining sake.

Complaining in general doesn't fix things either. Saying SE messed up, the devs messed up, and they better fix what you're unhappy about does not add to the solution. Giving helpful ideas on how the problems can be addressed does help. And it sounds a lot better than complaining.
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#145 Nov 17 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
to have people come in and psychoanalyze people who enjoy the game (claiming that we don't really enjoy it we've just tricked ourselves into thinking we do!)


I have to assume this is directed at me, which I feel is an unfair comment in light of having provided reasons why people would enjoy the game.

Quote:
people who are not going to like the game no matter what happens are not really adding anything worthwhile to these conversations.


It's awfully incredibly presumptuous to claim that someone won't like the game no matter what. That's just something that you don't know. As for what's worthwhile, that's entirely subjective. I enjoy reading people's comments about the game, even if they're complaints and criticisms... to me, it's worthwhile.

Understand that the same basis for which some defend their enjoyment of FFXIV applies equally to the people who enjoy conversing about the flaws of FFXIV. Basically people are asking others not to express their honest opinion of the game because it's not the same as theirs. I can't believe people haven't realized the futility of this by now.

Quote:
Y'know, I just don't understand the people who support those who've quit the game yet still post negatively over here. I didn't like XII. I'm not going to XII forums just to bash the game, list off everything I didn't like. Why? No one cares.


A lot of people did and still do. There was a discussion about it in this very forum not three days ago. And actually, some people do care.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 5:39am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#146 Nov 17 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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164 posts
I think people are missing a very important point. The extension was announced yesterday on the 16th. Patch on the 25th (9 days away)...that leaves about 3 weeks of play with the new patch implemented.
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Irishclass777 said: crafting is crafting no matter the game just because crafting is a job in ffxiv don't it much change much.


#147 Nov 17 2010 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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It has been posted before, but the number of accounts created, is in the neighborhood of 350,000. That's about half of the copies that were shipped. Keep in mind, that some people used their buddy passes, and don't forget the RMTs LOL.

So, with the above in mind, it can be reasoned that the number of valid sales is about 300,000.

I really wish we had some numbers on the current state of the server populations. Any time I log in, the server I'm on seems dead.

But, I'm off topic, ain't I. I don't think extending it hurt the game. I do think they should have announced the following:

" we will be extending the free BETA, for another 60 days, to allow us to implement some patches, and allow the players to TEST these changes."

I mean really, they announce an extra 30 days of free play, and a patch that will be released maybe 2 days before the extra 30 days expires.
#148thehellfire, Posted: Nov 17 2010 at 10:26 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) At least this site doesnt ban fans and support the haters.
#149 Nov 17 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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Gadhelyn wrote:
Blame only shows that you want the benefits without taking part in the solution.

Y'know, I just don't understand the people who support those who've quit the game yet still post negatively over here. I didn't like XII. I'm not going to XII forums just to bash the game, list off everything I didn't like. Why? No one cares. The only thing that MIGHT get me is the knowledge that someone else doesn't like it as much as I do. Which won't help me enjoy the game any more or less.

Now, in case of XIV, I do understand people wanting to stick around to see if the game improves. But beating the dead horse is getting excessive around here, we all know the problems, they've posted what they will update (and seriously, how often has SE posted what they wish to update in XI without following through? I haven't payed attention to XI for a few years and don't know how often this has happened.). Pointing out the same problems AFTER they have said how they plan on fixing it is redundant and adds nothing to the solution. At that point it's complaining for complaining sake.

Complaining in general doesn't fix things either. Saying SE messed up, the devs messed up, and they better fix what you're unhappy about does not add to the solution. Giving helpful ideas on how the problems can be addressed does help. And it sounds a lot better than complaining.


I disagree with most of your post. I don't see how giving helpful solutions matter on the zam forums when SE already knows the problem, they just didn't fix it pre-launch. As far as I'm concerned, the game hasn't been out long enough yet to be a dead horse topic. It's kinda obvious though which threads don't support FFXIV without clicking on them. So I'm a bit tired of hearing people who are complaining about people who speak negatively about the game. The derogatory posts are different though.

I think that it's sad how SE pretty much forced everyone to either upgrade their pc or wait for the PS3 version. Those that upgraded only to be sold a lemon have a right to be downright upset. On top of that, people including myself bought the CE version which again was more money. So in a monetary sense, people got ripped off.

In closing, what really concerns me is that if SE would release this unfinished Beta quality game, what does that say about the future of the game? Quite frankly, it downright scares me. It's almost as if SE was taking their fans for granted and saying, "Don't worry, they're sheep who think were Gods". It's ironic that I would of been more happy with your run-of-the-mill launch glitches than the way the game was released. The bottom line SE has lost the confidence of the average fan and now they have to work twice as hard to regain it. Most of the people that post/lurk around the forums are waiting for that change. Some are just ****** beyond belief. Either way, it's SE fault.

#150 Nov 17 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Gadhelyn wrote:
Blame only shows that you want the benefits without taking part in the solution.

Y'know, I just don't understand the people who support those who've quit the game yet still post negatively over here. I didn't like XII. I'm not going to XII forums just to bash the game, list off everything I didn't like. Why? No one cares. The only thing that MIGHT get me is the knowledge that someone else doesn't like it as much as I do. Which won't help me enjoy the game any more or less.

Now, in case of XIV, I do understand people wanting to stick around to see if the game improves. But beating the dead horse is getting excessive around here, we all know the problems, they've posted what they will update (and seriously, how often has SE posted what they wish to update in XI without following through? I haven't payed attention to XI for a few years and don't know how often this has happened.). Pointing out the same problems AFTER they have said how they plan on fixing it is redundant and adds nothing to the solution. At that point it's complaining for complaining sake.

Complaining in general doesn't fix things either. Saying SE messed up, the devs messed up, and they better fix what you're unhappy about does not add to the solution. Giving helpful ideas on how the problems can be addressed does help. And it sounds a lot better than complaining.


I disagree with most of your post. I don't see how giving helpful solutions matter on the zam forums when SE already knows the problem, they just didn't fix it pre-launch. As far as I'm concerned, the game hasn't been out long enough yet to be a dead horse topic. It's kinda obvious though which threads don't support FFXIV without clicking on them. So I'm a bit tired of hearing people who are complaining about people who speak negatively about the game. The derogatory posts are different though.

I think that it's sad how SE pretty much forced everyone to either upgrade their pc or wait for the PS3 version. Those that upgraded only to be sold a lemon have a right to be downright upset. On top of that, people including myself bought the CE version which again was more money. So in a monetary sense, people got ripped off.

In closing, what really concerns me is that if SE would release this unfinished Beta quality game, what does that say about the future of the game? Quite frankly, it downright scares me. It's almost as if SE was taking their fans for granted and saying, "Don't worry, they're sheep who think were Gods". It's ironic that I would of been more happy with your run-of-the-mill launch glitches than the way the game was released. The bottom line SE has lost the confidence of the average fan and now they have to work twice as hard to regain it. Most of the people that post/lurk around the forums are waiting for that change. Some are just ****** beyond belief. Either way, it's SE fault.


I didn't say "Don't be negative". I've got things I'd like changed. I'm not going to jump on ZAM and repeat them, adding no new information or ideas, every single day until things are changed. That is what I was referring to.

Dead horse topic: when the entire community has seen an argument so many times every regular member can recite both sides of the argument from memory. This can happen pretty quickly. Restating a side of an argument that has been given several times before without adding anything new is beating the dead horse.

SE "forced" PC players to upgrade their computers because the immensity of the game. Gameplay, databases, graphics. If They didn't make the game as graphic-intensive as they did, I'm sure people would get online and complain about how SE failed them in not fully using current technology to make the game as pretty as possible. Now, yes, it is worrisome that they released the game as is after people spent so much on their computers (this is a dead horse topic). But they're working on it. Would you like it if your job performance from now on was called into question just because you made a mistake? Oooo, Domino's pizza gave me food poisoning once, I'm never going to trust them again.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 11:32am by Gadhelyn
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#151 Nov 17 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Gadhelyn wrote:
Oooo, Domino's pizza gave me food poisoning once, I'm never going to trust them again.


Ignoring the rest of your argument, which I mostly agree with, if a restaurant gives me food poisoning - then yes, I will never go back there.

However, I have more faith in software to continually improve over time, than in the ability of a dirty restaurant to suddenly become clean.
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