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Will current game mechanics create bad players?Follow

#1 Nov 16 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am currently a r36 conjurer and based on my experiences thus far I feel like that game is going to create some really ****** players...the best way to gain sp is to zerg **** and spam aoe heal...there is absolutely no need to organize anything.

The only thing that really requires any kind of skill are battle leves and I don't see many 33+s even bothering with them. Though I do them every reset with a small group of people (4-5) on 2-3 stars because it is the only challenging thing in the game atm.

Combine this with being able to solo the main and class quests players have no real need to be good at their class.

XI forced people to have a certain amount of skill with their job, otherwise their xp would suck and have a reputation for being a ****** a player.

#2 Nov 16 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree, arguably the biggest problem facing this game is the way parties are for SP. It's an individual SP free-for-all, really absent of strategy for taking down the mob or working with others. This by most accounts makes grinding feel less fun. You want to forget that you're grinding in an MMO, at least for periods, but that really doesn't happen in XIV.

I never really feel good about what is happening in SP parties. It feels almost insulting to one's intelligence, yet given the SP curve you pretty much have to do it as you get well into the 20s.

Edit - I should also point out that this game makes any one player's contribution feel pretty insignificant. When you have ten, fifteen people all just spamming, it doesn't really matter if someone is doing particularly well, or particularly poor. In XI the way each person played mattered to some distinguishable extent, and I liked that.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 2:02pm by Coyohma
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#3 Nov 16 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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If it makes you feel any better, it's very easy to see who's good and who's bad on grass raptors.

I already have a big sh*tlist of people I'd never join a party with or invite to my party. Bad people wipe parties on grass raptors

Efts, Crabs, and Ants are pretty multitaskable though.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 2:01pm by Meowshi
#4 Nov 16 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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I never really understood this argument.

Let's assume that the mechanics are fine, or will one day be fine.

So far its panning out in FFXIV, unlike FFXI where grouping isn't necessary until end game. Although groups and group mechanics grew over time, it's not like the game was built for geniuses. Meaning, people will get acclimated to the system when the time comes. People will learn and adapt to group dynamics, although it might take a bit longer to get 'optimal' or at the very least good at endgame.

FFXI forced grouping definitely didn't hurt FFXI's endgame grouping but I don't think it is necessary, nor do I think everyone will be bad. They might start out bad or wiping a lot, but eventually the 'bad' people will get weeded out. Kinda like CoP. I knew my role very well in a regular group party, but that wasn't the point. In CoP you had to devise a strategy and carry it out. And that strategy revolved around, hate, not dying, and using those shard things.

In FFXI I was playing THF wrong for about 40 levels until some JP yelled at me for not setting up SATA right, and I learned from that. And I've met some players who were horrible who ended up at end game, who never learned all the while spamming in /p "USEING WS GUST SLASH NAO!!" somehow while I never did due to time constraints.

I would like to see some grouping, but just for grouping's sake. I think its fun to overcome obstacles with others. In the end I don't think everyone will suck, I think the people that suck will suck forced grouping or not.
#5 Nov 16 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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Meowshi wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, it's very easy to see who's good and who's bad on grass raptors.

I already have a big sh*tlist of people I'd never join a party with or invite to my party. Bad people wipe parties on grass raptors

Efts, Crabs, and Ants are pretty multitaskable though.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 2:01pm by Meowshi

How so? Don't people just have to stand in front of the raptor to avoid Tail Scythe? If that determines whether someone is "good" or not, lol..
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#6 Nov 16 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would agree that the zergable nature of most of the content to date suggests that players aren't incentivized to learn the underpinning mechanics of the game, but not that it would "create" a bad player.

Everyone is green in this game, even if you're in the 30s-40s in rank, definitely YES, pew pewing and AOE heals are not encouraging people to "LTP". It will be interesting to see, though, what the upcoming "imbalance in enmity" that they will be tweaking in future updates will do. Will it make it easier or harder to hold threat? Will AOE heals at the beginning of the battle when enmity is overall low and each player is 10HP from max guarantee the mob attacks the healer (actually, I hope it does...)

In any event, there are bad players in every game. Nothing will prevent that. The current system does not make learning the mechanics easy or necessary, but given SE's overall lack of communication and ongoing tinkering, this is probably "working as intended". I bet it changes as we approach end game, no doubt.
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#7 Nov 16 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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SP parties often feel like roaming FFXI Abyssea parties (minus the kill-shot/lights).

I personally like AoE heals, it's different than most games and I like not dying as a melee (too often..)

As we all get more playtime under our belts, I'm sure that better strats will develop and eventually people will be more tactical.
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#8 Nov 16 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Adding a small amount of SP per kill as well as per action would encourage tactics in SP parties (properly timed spike damage, acc/att boosting skills, pulling/roaming, etc.) while still giving good rewards to soloers who take longer to kill mobs. Right now I don't think mob difficulty is the problem but rather the SP system rewards actions/hr not kills/hr. There's no incentive to learn how to do more damage with your gear and skills, only how to spam abilities faster.

#9 Nov 16 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, it's very easy to see who's good and who's bad on grass raptors.

I already have a big sh*tlist of people I'd never join a party with or invite to my party. Bad people wipe parties on grass raptors

Efts, Crabs, and Ants are pretty multitaskable though.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 2:01pm by Meowshi

How so? Don't people just have to stand in front of the raptor to avoid Tail Scythe? If that determines whether someone is "good" or not, lol..


Bad archers will pull agro from way too far back, bad thaumaturges pull agro from standing too far, and bad everyone elses just surround the raptors and die

It's not hard to clump up in a ball, but people die anyways. It's fine if they die, but after a few deaths they start to stand far back and get everyone scythed.

And I kind of see gaining SP as a competition. If you contribute more, you get more SP, that sort of thing.
#10 Nov 16 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Coyohma wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, it's very easy to see who's good and who's bad on grass raptors.

I already have a big sh*tlist of people I'd never join a party with or invite to my party. Bad people wipe parties on grass raptors

Efts, Crabs, and Ants are pretty multitaskable though.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 2:01pm by Meowshi

How so? Don't people just have to stand in front of the raptor to avoid Tail Scythe? If that determines whether someone is "good" or not, lol..


grass raptors are a joke...you just stand in front with 3 healers who cure 1/sac 1 when it uses fire breath...easiest 500sp a mob you'll ever get...there is absolutely no incentive to do anything else.

it is backwards imo...under no circumstances should you want an aoe to hit the entire party...but because how sp is doled out in xiv it is encouraged.

at one point while grinding efts...we had 1 too many healers and actually tried trying to fight without shell so the healers could get more sp...that is just ******* insane.

on top of this i have 93 pts in vit as a conjuer...20 more than mnd...and 30 more than int and piety.
#11 Nov 16 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Meowshi wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, it's very easy to see who's good and who's bad on grass raptors.

I already have a big sh*tlist of people I'd never join a party with or invite to my party. Bad people wipe parties on grass raptors

Efts, Crabs, and Ants are pretty multitaskable though.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 2:01pm by Meowshi

How so? Don't people just have to stand in front of the raptor to avoid Tail Scythe? If that determines whether someone is "good" or not, lol..


Bad archers will pull agro from way too far back, bad thaumaturges pull agro from standing too far, and bad everyone elses just surround the raptors and die

It's not hard to clump up in a ball, but people die anyways. It's fine if they die, but after a few deaths they start to stand far back and get everyone scythed.

And I kind of see gaining SP as a competition. If you contribute more, you get more SP, that sort of thing.

except i max sp after 1-3 aoe cures and the competition is who gets a cure off first, which isn't really a problem as they spam fire breath so i ease up on cure timing after i cap.
#12 Nov 16 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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stripesonfire wrote:

on top of this i have 93 pts in vit as a conjuer...20 more than mnd...and 30 more than int and piety.


lol, when I play Conjurer, I had 100+ Vit, 100+ Mind, 13 piety and 13 intelligence. Actually more like 3 intelligence, I usually left my +10 strength trait on by accident.

stripesonfire wrote:

except i max sp after 1-3 aoe cures and the competition is who gets a cure off first, which isn't really a problem as they spam fire breath so i ease up on cure timing after i cap.


In this case, more skillful = Who can get the first Cure off to 500 SP then. It's a timing thing, right? You can have better timing than everyone else. Especially when you stack 3 archers and raptors only get 1-2 firebreaths off.
#13 Nov 16 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Meowshi wrote:
stripesonfire wrote:

on top of this i have 93 pts in vit as a conjuer...20 more than mnd...and 30 more than int and piety.


lol, when I play Conjurer, I had 100+ Vit, 100+ Mind, 13 piety and 13 intelligence. Actually more like 3 intelligence, I usually left my +10 strength trait on by accident.

stripesonfire wrote:

except i max sp after 1-3 aoe cures and the competition is who gets a cure off first, which isn't really a problem as they spam fire breath so i ease up on cure timing after i cap.


In this case, more skillful = Who can get the first Cure off to 500 SP then. It's a timing thing, right? You can have better timing than everyone else. Especially when you stack 3 archers and raptors only get 1-2 firebreaths off.

the fact that is is completely pointless as a conjurer to bother putting points in piety and int is so backwards.

and in any game you don't want the mob to deal a **** done of dmg to you constantly, you'd be rewarded for it in fact...but xiv encourages everyone to take dmg for healers to get sp...the only real challenge is keeping shell up...otherwise you'll wipe.

the only strategic moment i've seen fighting raptors was when this one thm kepting pulling hate and it caused the raptor to tailwhip us a few times and wipe...i suggested he stand a bit in front of the tank on top of the mob and cure facing the clump of people...worked like a charm.
#14 Nov 16 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have to say, I agree that the current party mechanics are really going to yield some ****-style players once they start balancing things out. However, that isn't really an issue for me considering I am also one of these players. Everyone is. No one is really utilizing their class' full potential in SP parties currently because it really encourages being selfish over team play. Personally, I don't care what other people in the party are doing as long as I'm not dead and I'm getting SP - because it doesn't matter. In fact, the worse the other DDs in the party do, the more chances I have to get SP!

I can't wait until the tact and positioning talked about prior to release really becomes necessary

- I want to see tanks being cognizant of what direction mobs are facing (it should matter)
- DDs getting on one side of the mob over another because of positional attacks/CoE/Aoe attacks
- I want healers dying because of unnecessary AoE heal spam (or using Cure II when they shouldn't)
- I want to have to be aware of the hate threshold while pew-pewing things in the face with arrows
- I want to see a party I'm in wiped because of a couple mistakes here and there by key roles in the party
- I WANT SOME MORE AGGRESSIVE MOBS! I want to be encouraged to pull a mob out of a group of its buddies

Then I want to learn from all of it, devise better strategies and get better. Right now it is, "What won't one shot our GLA/MAR? Let's fight that." Everyone gathers around. GLA hits Provoke and we go nuts until mob is dead. Rinse. Repeat.

In FFXI I liked the challenge that every fight presented. Sure, in FFXIV I've gotten killed in SP parties, but it wasn't because of anything a party member did in most cases. Either the mob was just too hard for the group or we caught a serious add.

I'd also love to see them implement groups of enemies. Like...4-5 of them. If we have upwards of 15 people in a group, ganging up on 1 mob just seems cheap. ****, all these AoE abilities in game and the only targets we get to use them on are leve targets? Don't like.

Finally...Battle Regimens. What potential. A more free flowing SC system!? BAM! Once this gets fleshed out and simplified/revised I think it could add a lot to battles. I like how they are different from SCs and that you can be more flexible with them. If they were working right, people would probably use them every single fight.

Until SE addresses the Zergishness of party combat, all of us are going to be pretty crappy at this game, honestly. Not really much separating good players from bad ones. Getting SP faster than another player doesn't mean you know how to play your class well.

Sorry for the rant...

-Kash
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#15 Nov 16 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't really comment too much on larger parties because I have duo'd everything up to this point (21 PGL/21 CON). From what I have seen, there is a lot of skill required to pull off successful fights when duoing. We typically fight yellow to red mobs that require very careful positioning (otherwise CON will get slept and I die) and require good hate management since its crucial that the CON never gets hit. I can only hope that this translates well into larger parties, although from the sounds of it doesn't appear to be that way. I think ppl who solo or group in larger parties really don't need to think too much about positioning/hate mangement. But in smaller groups (in my case a duel party) it is the difference between dying and getting 500 SP/fight.
#16 Nov 16 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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well my point is that for efficient sping, 10k-15k/hr you get a group of 8 with 2-3 mages, and cure when it aoes...melee do whatever for sp.

anything else is inefficient imo...and this is where the problem lies...the game currently does not reward strategy.
#17 Nov 16 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Default
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Bad players will be bad regardless. Most players in every mmo are bad. This one will be no different. The good will get good the bad will continue to suck.
#18 Nov 16 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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SP gain certainly hasn't been optimized yet. As you say, there is no feeling of urgency while in a party and not enough demand for cooperation or strategy. In XI EXP chains drove parties forward while party size and MP regeneration put a limit on how fast and long you could kill. Still, if you have a good group of people who actually want to get better at killing, there's no reason you can't take on harder stuff. There just isn't any reward to do so apart from personal satisfaction.

This current system won't necessarily create bad players. Most endgame encounters have mechanics specific to them that you don't learn in EXP/SP parties and require special learning anyway. No doubt battle will be changing quite a bit as well. I hope they devise something more elegant than tacking on bonus SP when a mob dies but even copying XI's system would be better than nothing.
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#19 Nov 16 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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The current mechanics will absolutely create bad players at endgame.

But not because of how to grind optimally. Punishing Barbs is the problem.
If all 15 players in your party have PB, it doesn't matter how good you are. :(
I really hope it's adjusted before NMs. It trivializes the entire game as it is.
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#20 Nov 16 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
I never really understood this argument.

Let's assume that the mechanics are fine, or will one day be fine.

So far its panning out in FFXIV, unlike FFXI where grouping isn't necessary until end game. Although groups and group mechanics grew over time, it's not like the game was built for geniuses. Meaning, people will get acclimated to the system when the time comes. People will learn and adapt to group dynamics, although it might take a bit longer to get 'optimal' or at the very least good at endgame.

FFXI forced grouping definitely didn't hurt FFXI's endgame grouping but I don't think it is necessary, nor do I think everyone will be bad. They might start out bad or wiping a lot, but eventually the 'bad' people will get weeded out. Kinda like CoP. I knew my role very well in a regular group party, but that wasn't the point. In CoP you had to devise a strategy and carry it out. And that strategy revolved around, hate, not dying, and using those shard things.

In FFXI I was playing THF wrong for about 40 levels until some JP yelled at me for not setting up SATA right, and I learned from that. And I've met some players who were horrible who ended up at end game, who never learned all the while spamming in /p "USEING WS GUST SLASH NAO!!" somehow while I never did due to time constraints.

I would like to see some grouping, but just for grouping's sake. I think its fun to overcome obstacles with others. In the end I don't think everyone will suck, I think the people that suck will suck forced grouping or not.


Their point is, when you can just stand there, mash a button for Sp gains and watch television while doing it = create bad players.

Encounters that require attention = create good players.

The games current focus creates bad players, hence the player chiming in about Raptor groups requiring attention, which at that point, most don't.

If allowed to happen on a consistant basis, the next thing majority of the players will start to whinge and ***** about, will be the fact that encounters are too hard because I can't watch my episode of Stargate SUV and click Light swing every few seconds.
#21 Nov 16 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
game mechanics

What a great idea! I wish SE had thought of that.

I am so *********** sick of these inexplicable evasions ruining combat. Why are they there? Are they like surplus for hit rate--just another barrier to slow the advance of players to R50?

As it is now, every player is a bad player. How can I be elite when the game caps everyone at mediocrity?

I'm still more mediocre than you.
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#22 Nov 16 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Why is it random instead of X exp per kill? just curious? is this another way to keep RMT out of the game?

Havent partied or played for 3 weeks>>>>
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#23 Nov 16 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Shijou wrote:
The current mechanics will absolutely create bad players at endgame.

But not because of how to grind optimally. Punishing Barbs is the problem.
If all 15 players in your party have PB, it doesn't matter how good you are. :(
I really hope it's adjusted before NMs. It trivializes the entire game as it is.


oh god yes it does...i always have it equipped but use only use it as a last resort...mainly for leves.

but it is extremely overpowered...and would definitely be abused on nms...could increase the cool down (wouldn't really fix the problem) or the length of a fight has something to do with the drop rate formula of nm drops.
#24 Nov 16 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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hanibalz wrote:
Why is it random instead of X exp per kill? just curious? is this another way to keep RMT out of the game?

Havent partied or played for 3 weeks>>>>



There is seriously zero good reason its like this.

I heard tanaka invented the system for FF2 which he was also lead design on. Maybe he brought it back because he liked it, and wanted to make something 'unique' for this game,
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#25 Nov 16 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
hanibalz wrote:
Why is it random instead of X exp per kill? just curious? is this another way to keep RMT out of the game?

Havent partied or played for 3 weeks>>>>



There is seriously zero good reason its like this.

I heard tanaka invented the system for FF2 which he was also lead design on. Maybe he brought it back because he liked it, and wanted to make something 'unique' for this game,


In theory it's a great system. The more you do something the better you become at it, just like in real life. However we all know that "realism" is often detrimental in an MMO setting. And on top of that it seems to be poorly implemented in FFXIV, that is, you get the same SP for weak attacks as with strong attacks. I haven't played a healer yet, but from what I'm seeing it makes equally little sense there too.

If properly tested I think it could be developed into a very natural and fun method of leveling up. Actually having your character grow with your actions instead of just adding exp points to a slowing growing status bar. Unfortunately it appears to have undergone very little testing and is frustrating, non-intuitive, and detrimental to player development.
#26 Nov 16 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
hanibalz wrote:
Why is it random instead of X exp per kill? just curious? is this another way to keep RMT out of the game?

Havent partied or played for 3 weeks>>>>



There is seriously zero good reason its like this.

I heard tanaka invented the system for FF2 which he was also lead design on. Maybe he brought it back because he liked it, and wanted to make something 'unique' for this game,


In theory it's a great system. The more you do something the better you become at it, just like in real life. However we all know that "realism" is often detrimental in an MMO setting. And on top of that it seems to be poorly implemented in FFXIV, that is, you get the same SP for weak attacks as with strong attacks. I haven't played a healer yet, but from what I'm seeing it makes equally little sense there too.

If properly tested I think it could be developed into a very natural and fun method of leveling up. Actually having your character grow with your actions instead of just adding exp points to a slowing growing status bar. Unfortunately it appears to have undergone very little testing and is frustrating, non-intuitive, and detrimental to player development.


I agree with this completely - the problem is they don't give the same exp for everything now tho - I get like 17 SP for debuffs - even though a debuff is way harder to land than a cure - and this encourages crappy gameplay for two reasons:

-When I properly debuff as a mage I help the mob die faster which means everyone has fewer chances to get SP
-if as a mage I can get SP very easily by just pressing cure, cure, sacrifice cure and don't get any reliable SP from debuffing and nuking - why would I want to volunteer to debuff and/or nuke and learn those roles? So much for strategy.

I much prefer to be a debuffer/nuker like a black mage than this game allows. Magic is suck. All DoM are is curebots. It bores the crap out of me.

Anyway I find that as a healer the worse everyone plays the more SP I get.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#27 Nov 16 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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After reading this thread I've decided to cancel my account. Thanks for the heads up on things to come.
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#28 Nov 16 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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Telaki wrote:
After reading this thread I've decided to cancel my account. Thanks for the heads up on things to come.


TOO LATE! THEY ALREADY EXTENDED THE FREE TRIAL PERIOD!

You can't escape till they make fixes!

Smiley: moogle

Also I think yer trolling.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#29 Nov 16 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I will probably pull mad forum-aggro for my opinion on this, but it's my honest opinion, so here's my two gil...

To me, there is only 1 type of bad player:
They are the type of player that will check the equipment of every player who joins their party and then boot them if they don't have the perfect eq for their level, thus forcing the rest of their party to wait (sometimes for hours) while they find another person to join... and then check their eq... (this was the sort of thing that killed FFXI for me)
They are the type of player that will insult and demean someone who is still learning their class, rather than calmly explaining how they can play it better.
They are the type of player to whom "fun" is ONLY measured in SP or XP per hour.
They are the type of player that, by their (usually superior or elitist) attitude manages to lessen the fun of those with whom they are grouped.
I could go on... but I think everyone gets the type of bad player that I am talking about.

To me a good player:
Sees the humor in an occasional accidental party wipe. (I've been responsible for a few of these, and I own up to it)
Sees a "green" player as an opportunity to teach (with patience, many new players can be made experienced knowledgable veterans pretty quickly).
Sees someone lacking good equipment as an opportunity to sell the equipment that they craft (or if they are so inclined, to give away for free).
Sees the endgame as a goal, but sees fun as a far more important goal (and one that is more easily and quickly achievable).
I could go on... but I think everyone gets the type of good player that I am talking about.

In regards to the OP, my kind of bad and good players have little if anything to do with game mechanics... so no, I don't see the game mechanics as a problem that will create more bad players, of course, I don't believe that the game mechanics will create any more good players either.

Again, these are just my thoughts, my opinions... and I hope that you all know more of my kind of good player than my kind of bad player.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan
#30 Nov 17 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Bad players who think they're good players will remain bad players.
Bad players who know they're bad but want to learn will become good players.
Good players will refine their skillset and become great players.

It's the same regardless of MMO. It just so happens that in this case, we've had it pretty easy and it has enabled a lot of bad players to come to the conclusion that they're good. A few challenging encounters should suffice to expose them. What they do after that is up to them.
#31 Nov 17 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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its more a community made issue rather the game made issues.
Player feel the NEED to spam for good Sp. Like in ffxi. This game does have some physics in battle system, just up to the players to use them. Like the "spaming 1" "issus" players don;t NEED to spam 1 they have 1 and 2 as attacks. They just CHOOSE to do just 1.
Will this cause bad players, yes. As no one is taking up how to really battle. Like my street fighter example. Anyone can play and just spam 1 button. But it is funner to do combos. But it up to the players if they want to do combos.
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#32 Nov 17 2010 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
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AilysFoxglove wrote:
I will probably pull mad forum-aggro for my opinion on this, but it's my honest opinion, so here's my two gil...

To me, there is only 1 type of bad player:
They are the type of player that will check the equipment of every player who joins their party and then boot them if they don't have the perfect eq for their level, thus forcing the rest of their party to wait (sometimes for hours) while they find another person to join... and then check their eq... (this was the sort of thing that killed FFXI for me)
They are the type of player that will insult and demean someone who is still learning their class, rather than calmly explaining how they can play it better.
They are the type of player to whom "fun" is ONLY measured in SP or XP per hour.
They are the type of player that, by their (usually superior or elitist) attitude manages to lessen the fun of those with whom they are grouped.
I could go on... but I think everyone gets the type of bad player that I am talking about.

To me a good player:
Sees the humor in an occasional accidental party wipe. (I've been responsible for a few of these, and I own up to it)
Sees a "green" player as an opportunity to teach (with patience, many new players can be made experienced knowledgable veterans pretty quickly).
Sees someone lacking good equipment as an opportunity to sell the equipment that they craft (or if they are so inclined, to give away for free).
Sees the endgame as a goal, but sees fun as a far more important goal (and one that is more easily and quickly achievable).
I could go on... but I think everyone gets the type of good player that I am talking about.

In regards to the OP, my kind of bad and good players have little if anything to do with game mechanics... so no, I don't see the game mechanics as a problem that will create more bad players, of course, I don't believe that the game mechanics will create any more good players either.

Again, these are just my thoughts, my opinions... and I hope that you all know more of my kind of good player than my kind of bad player.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan


Very well said, and good character last name = D

I think the way this game is setup now, those bad players you speak of look even more foolish when trying to pull elitist crap. I like that part of it...go with whatever setup makes you happy and have at it. It's just a skillup party. A means to an end. The end hopefully being more challenging future content that tests the players more.

As for me, if someone was to watch me soloing my classes now they'd probably stick a "bad player" label on me or somethin' = P
I pretty much have a generic DoW setup and a DoM setup including gear. Few changes here & there, but really I'm just doin' the same thing on all classes to get them to party-range. And even in parties, it wouldn't be much different. I'll have a unique macro setup for partying on DoM most likely, but even then it's not something that requires a gaming master to do. I already have in mind how I would setup if parties were more than skillup contests.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 5:04am by TwistedOwl
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#33 Nov 17 2010 at 5:39 AM Rating: Good
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I understand the worries of the OP.

Since there is no need to party to gain an acceptable ammount of SP compared to XI many players don't even care about playing in a party. But that's what SE intended to offer to players that like to solo for whatever reason or players with limited time.
Another thing is that job roles in partys are not as clear as they were in XI, so people are still figuring out things about the classes and try to find a playstile for their favored class. That's because there is more than one way to play a DoW or DoM and also intended.
Reputation will build over time and once harder content is avaliable the players with low skill or not enough dedication will stand out more than now. I don't see a problem here.

The only thing atm that's a problem for me is the party SP distribution. If they would add all SP gained and divide it by the number of party members the system would be fairer. Exp distribution already works like that if I'm not mistaken.
Also they'll find ways to prevent people from abusing game mechanics to gain SP/EXP.
However. SP distribution will change in the comming updates so let's see how it will work out.

A bit off topic: I hope we'll get story quests or something similar for parties again. It's more fun experiencing stories and going on adventures with more people.
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#34 Nov 17 2010 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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80 posts
AilysFoxglove wrote:
I will probably pull mad forum-aggro for my opinion on this, but it's my honest opinion, so here's my two gil...

To me, there is only 1 type of bad player:
They are the type of player that will check the equipment of every player who joins their party and then boot them if they don't have the perfect eq for their level, thus forcing the rest of their party to wait (sometimes for hours) while they find another person to join... and then check their eq... (this was the sort of thing that killed FFXI for me)
They are the type of player that will insult and demean someone who is still learning their class, rather than calmly explaining how they can play it better.
They are the type of player to whom "fun" is ONLY measured in SP or XP per hour.
They are the type of player that, by their (usually superior or elitist) attitude manages to lessen the fun of those with whom they are grouped.
I could go on... but I think everyone gets the type of bad player that I am talking about.

To me a good player:
Sees the humor in an occasional accidental party wipe. (I've been responsible for a few of these, and I own up to it)
Sees a "green" player as an opportunity to teach (with patience, many new players can be made experienced knowledgable veterans pretty quickly).
Sees someone lacking good equipment as an opportunity to sell the equipment that they craft (or if they are so inclined, to give away for free).
Sees the endgame as a goal, but sees fun as a far more important goal (and one that is more easily and quickly achievable).
I could go on... but I think everyone gets the type of good player that I am talking about.

In regards to the OP, my kind of bad and good players have little if anything to do with game mechanics... so no, I don't see the game mechanics as a problem that will create more bad players, of course, I don't believe that the game mechanics will create any more good players either.

Again, these are just my thoughts, my opinions... and I hope that you all know more of my kind of good player than my kind of bad player.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan


please re-read what i bolded...that right there says you believe it won't make good players...hence everyone is mediocre or bad.

part of my point is the other day i was grinding raptors and my roommate started talking to me...i literally was not paying attention to the grind...was looking at youtube videos...would alt-tab back and throw in a cure every 10 secs or so and was on follow...i did not have to pay attention to anything at all.

and i mentioned this before, but the only challenging thing in the game atm are higher ranked leves on higher difficulties, however, i never see anyone at the nodes doing leves, either it is because there are fewer people logging or people don't do them because they thing it is a waste of time. i think they are necessary to complete to have a better understanding of how to play your class...i actually feeling like i'm a mage and not a cure-bot.

my fear is that people won't know how to do anything other than spam 1 button and random skills for sp. once you have that ingrained in your play style it is tough to do anything else, especially at cap when there is no point to sp at all. and the current sp distribution mechanics doesn't encourage anything else.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 9:48am by stripesonfire
#35 Nov 17 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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stripesonfire wrote:
AilysFoxglove wrote:


In regards to the OP, my kind of bad and good players have little if anything to do with game mechanics... so no, I don't see the game mechanics as a problem that will create more bad players, of course, I don't believe that the game mechanics will create any more good players either.

Again, these are just my thoughts, my opinions... and I hope that you all know more of my kind of good player than my kind of bad player.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan


please re-read what i bolded...that right there says you believe it won't make good players...hence everyone is mediocre or bad.
Edited, Nov 17th 2010 9:48am by stripesonfire


Actually I think you are misinterpreting what I said. I said that the mechanics would not CREATE any more good or bad players, because I don't believe good or bad players have to do with game mechanics. Any goodness or badness is already pre-existing in their attitude... in my opinion.

TwistedOwl wrote:
Very well said, and good character last name = D


Thanks, the original incarnation of this character (whom has developed over time) was in a story of mine, and she was a poisoner. Foxglove (digitalis digitalis) as some people may know, is where a very powerful medicine (digitalis) is derived... if applied in TINY doses, in larger doses it is a incredibly powerful poison. She assumed the last name in respect to this.
#36 Nov 17 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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AilysFoxglove wrote:

Thanks, the original incarnation of this character (whom has developed over time) was in a story of mine, and she was a poisoner. Foxglove (digitalis digitalis) as some people may know, is where a very powerful medicine (digitalis) is derived... if applied in TINY doses, in larger doses it is a incredibly powerful poison. She assumed the last name in respect to this.


Leeloo Digitalis is the name of my character = D

Pretty/adorable, but deadly was kinda the thinkin' behind it...

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 2:19pm by TwistedOwl
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#37 Nov 17 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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AilysFoxglove wrote:
I don't believe good or bad players have to do with game mechanics.

I have to agree with you, unfortunately, but not for the same reason.

It's a shame that you can't gauge another player's ability because the game mechanics are so screwy. For me, an MMO is a character-building project. There are pieces to assemble and schematics to draw up, and the ultimate goal is making the most efficient, well-oiled machine possible and put it to work killing things. But in FFXIV, I can't do that--nobody can. Statistics don't mean anything. Gear doesn't mean anything. "Skill" doesn't mean anything. Competence doesn't mean anything. What I do now is only an illusion in hopes that a stable set of mechanics emerges later (SE has promised it already).

But this problem of mechanics works against you as well. Parties are selfish ************* everyone is out to get their own SP since each person is only awarded a personal stock of SP. You can eat accuracy for breakfast, lunch and dinner and still suffer myriad evasions because that's just the way it is. There is nothing to teach a "green" player. Death is a minor inconvenience, unless you forget to set your HP and have to burn anima. What is there to learn? All the categories of good playership on your list do not exist because they cannot exist. Why? Poor game mechanics.

By my definition, I am a bad player because my ACC is unavoidably terrible. By your definition, you are a bad player because you have nothing to teach. We both suck. And that guy sucks, and she sucks. We all suck.
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#38 Nov 17 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
We both suck. And that guy sucks, and she sucks. We all suck.


It's pretty much a world of suck. I try to be forgiving of other people at least for now, we're all in a world of suck.

The thing that's really making me sad right now is the uselessness of strategy. It really was the thing I enjoyed the most about FFXI, the difficulty of honing and implementing a strategy that could rip victory from the jaws of impossibility. Right now I'm lucky to pull one **** mob out of a tricky setup and not have it run away, deaggro and heal up on me.
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#39 Nov 18 2010 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually some mobs are suppose to run away. SE showed us at a few shows. You are suppose to chase the mobs. Not all mobs stick to one spot. I'll chalk this as another thing player forgot.
along with how buggy beta was and the several cancelations which are partly the reason the game was this bare.
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#40 Nov 18 2010 at 1:50 AM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
stripesonfire wrote:
I am currently a r36 conjurer and based on my experiences thus far I feel like that game is going to create some really sh*tty players...the best way to gain sp is to zerg sh*t and spam aoe heal...there is absolutely no need to organize anything.

The only thing that really requires any kind of skill are battle leves and I don't see many 33+s even bothering with them. Though I do them every reset with a small group of people (4-5) on 2-3 stars because it is the only challenging thing in the game atm.

Combine this with being able to solo the main and class quests players have no real need to be good at their class.

XI forced people to have a certain amount of skill with their job, otherwise their xp would suck and have a reputation for being a sh*tty a player.



All true, although I was amazed at the number of idiots in endgame FFXI... so many Durandal Paladins... I even remember this guy full-timing a Byrnie.

But, before I go off on a rant: again, what you say is true.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#41 Nov 18 2010 at 1:53 AM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
Death is a minor inconvenience, unless you forget to set your HP and have to burn anima. What is there to learn? All the categories of good playership on your list do not exist because they cannot exist. Why? Poor game mechanics.


Ooo, I like these lines -- well said.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#42 Nov 18 2010 at 3:55 AM Rating: Good
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This is definitely a legitimate concern. The current SP implementation rewards free-for-all, first-come-first-served go-for-self gameplay:

Everyone is racing tanks to the to pull or trying to hit the targets first because they legitimately NEED every single chance to get SP that they can squeeze out of a mob. Damage dealers blast everything they have without regard to threat, because harder and more frequent hits equals more SP. Healers WANT people to get hit and take damage because if they don't heal they don't get SP. Conversely, healers often get into arguments over who is healing, who is nuking and whether or not someone is hogging the SP.

Tanks have to use fewer mitigation abilities because if they dont taunt/provoke or hit the target, they dont get SP. Tanks also race ahead of groups without being aware of healer MP or even reading the chatlog sometimes, because for them to be effective (and get SP) they HAVE to get to the target before the rabid DPS wolves and establish some threat.

In its current iteration, the SP gain system is a tremendous obstacle to group synergy. Players simply are NOT going to give a **** about the efficiency and effectiveness of the group as a whole if doing so minimizes or negates their own character's opportunities for advancement.
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#43 Nov 18 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Decent
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@ tim
What you just said is what happebs on WoW and ffxi ALL THE TIME.
its not the game, its the player. Players take games to seriously now they HAVE TO get a certain xp/sp per hour.
If people stop taking mmorpg to seriously it might not be as bad. PPl in ffxi used to set a plan before starting a party. Now it dps zerg+ PL. ppl no longer set up balanced groups. They only want the heavy hitters to get the most exp per hour.

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#44 Nov 18 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
PPl in ffxi used to set a plan before starting a party. Now it dps zerg+ PL. ppl no longer set up balanced groups. They only want the heavy hitters to get the most exp per hour.

They used to have plans and balanced parties because that was the most expeditious way to get exp back then. When something better came along, they started going with that. For some, it's always been about getting the most exp in the shortest amount of time. Unless there is something in place to prevent that type of game play, it will always be SOP for some people.
#45 Nov 18 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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80 posts
AilysFoxglove wrote:
stripesonfire wrote:
AilysFoxglove wrote:


In regards to the OP, my kind of bad and good players have little if anything to do with game mechanics... so no, I don't see the game mechanics as a problem that will create more bad players, of course, I don't believe that the game mechanics will create any more good players either.

Again, these are just my thoughts, my opinions... and I hope that you all know more of my kind of good player than my kind of bad player.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan


please re-read what i bolded...that right there says you believe it won't make good players...hence everyone is mediocre or bad.
Edited, Nov 17th 2010 9:48am by stripesonfire


Actually I think you are misinterpreting what I said. I said that the mechanics would not CREATE any more good or bad players, because I don't believe good or bad players have to do with game mechanics. Any goodness or badness is already pre-existing in their attitude... in my opinion.


adaptability is the mark of a good player imo and in the current state of the game there is nothing except leves that force a player to adapt while fighting...go fight raptors and you'll see my point, especially for mages...all we do is aoe cure...that is it...if you rank 1-50 only aoe healing then you'll have a tough time changing your play-style in the future because that technique becomes second thought...this is what se is rewarding atm...if you are doing anything other than aoe curing for sp then you aren't maxing sp 90% of the time...and there lies the problem, there is no reason to do anything else.

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 12:41pm by stripesonfire
#46 Nov 18 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Sioux wrote:
Quote:
We both suck. And that guy sucks, and she sucks. We all suck.


It's pretty much a world of suck. I try to be forgiving of other people at least for now, we're all in a world of suck.

The thing that's really making me sad right now is the uselessness of strategy. It really was the thing I enjoyed the most about FFXI, the difficulty of honing and implementing a strategy that could rip victory from the jaws of impossibility. Right now I'm lucky to pull one **** mob out of a tricky setup and not have it run away, deaggro and heal up on me.


definitely agree...right now, efficient sping relies on zerging something 20 ranks above you...not having a tight-knit oiled xp machine.

and pulling is just bugged because of the retarded mob circle zone bs...making it impossible to pull without the entire party aggroing everything.
#47 Nov 18 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Almalexia wrote:
Death is a minor inconvenience, unless you forget to set your HP and have to burn anima. What is there to learn? All the categories of good playership on your list do not exist because they cannot exist. Why? Poor game mechanics.


Ooo, I like these lines -- well said.

yup, death in xi is inconsequential, while i hated the -xp in xi...it forced you to try and not wipe...no one cares in xiv cause it doesn't matter.

my hope is they'll create a harsher penalty to death once they tweak some of the combat and other things and players kind of get the hang of out.

hopefully, that will force more players to think and pay attention.
#48 Nov 18 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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80 posts
Timorith wrote:
This is definitely a legitimate concern. The current SP implementation rewards free-for-all, first-come-first-served go-for-self gameplay:

Everyone is racing tanks to the to pull or trying to hit the targets first because they legitimately NEED every single chance to get SP that they can squeeze out of a mob. Damage dealers blast everything they have without regard to threat, because harder and more frequent hits equals more SP. Healers WANT people to get hit and take damage because if they don't heal they don't get SP. Conversely, healers often get into arguments over who is healing, who is nuking and whether or not someone is hogging the SP.

Tanks have to use fewer mitigation abilities because if they dont taunt/provoke or hit the target, they dont get SP. Tanks also race ahead of groups without being aware of healer MP or even reading the chatlog sometimes, because for them to be effective (and get SP) they HAVE to get to the target before the rabid DPS wolves and establish some threat.

In its current iteration, the SP gain system is a tremendous obstacle to group synergy. Players simply are NOT going to give a **** about the efficiency and effectiveness of the group as a whole if doing so minimizes or negates their own character's opportunities for advancement.

this x1000...i can't even be mad though cause you have to do it and i do it as well...though when i cap i wait a tad longer to cure so other mages can hopefully get sp.

i keep saying this but the only thing that rewards team play are leves, but few people seem to do them as you gain more sp grinding....you can get maybe 15-20k sp doing 20 leves...maybe 25-50% of those with guardian aspect.

i can't wait till se allows us to change the difficulty as i won't have a problem trying some of them on a higher difficulty and then decreasing it if it becomes apparent we can't finish one.

they are also more rewarding in the sense that it takes strategy and attention when fighting and you feel like you accomplished something the harder the fight.

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 12:53pm by stripesonfire
#49 Nov 18 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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I generally get really crappy SP in leves unless I solo easier ones on harder stars.
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#50 Nov 18 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Game mechanics don't cause people to be bad players. It's their actions and performance within that context that decides it. Such as someone who comes onto a forum and believes that soloing leads to becoming terrible? I'd define that person as a bad player, simply because he's more worried about what OTHER people are doing instead of actually refining his own personal play style.

EDIT: Not singling someone out, merely the mindset that a lot of people have.

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 3:56pm by StrijderVechter
#51 Nov 18 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Game mechanics don't cause people to be bad players. It's their actions and performance within that context that decides it. Such as someone who comes onto a forum and believes that soloing leads to becoming terrible? I'd define that person as a bad player, simply because he's more worried about what OTHER people are doing instead of actually refining his own personal play style.

EDIT: Not singling someone out, merely the mindset that a lot of people have.

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 3:56pm by StrijderVechter

have you read anything i've said?

where did i say soloing leads someone to become a terrible player? what you are attempting to infer isn't my point at all. how many more times do i have to repeat myself?

right now sping relies on zerging mobs with absolutely no strategy compared to xi where you had to know wtf was going on for the most part; on top of that there were various types of parties (arrow burn, mana burn, mnk v. skeles, etc.).

what happens when se adds content that requires working together and strategy? everyone will just stand around with their **** in their hands with no idea how to play because they spent 1-50 spamming the same **** over and over again for sp.

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