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#52 Nov 17 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Gadhelyn wrote:
Does SE have a history with XI of not following through with updates that they've announced? I can't remember it really happening, not that I always paid attention to the parts that didn't affect my gameplay.


The only thing I can think of that they utterly scrapped and never implemented was the Colosseum (Which they implied was separate than the Pit) and it's worth mentioning that the pit didn't come until years after the release of ToAU.

And, more noticeably, because they actually posted an update notice about it then it never happened, the whole white Chocobo and special outdoor chocobo race update/thing, can't remember the details.

Anyways, if they say it will be implemented, it will (almost always) be implemented, when is the only question. They are fairly careful to never make definitive statements if something may be scrapped, as there are less than a handful of examples from over 8 years of FFXI service.
#53 Nov 17 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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thehellfire wrote:
They need to apologize to the real fans for extending free trial peruiod twice, since we have to deal with the haters yet another month.


The XIV community needs to stop reacting and replying to that kind of posts. They'll go away when nobody cares.

BTW ZAM has a really nice feedback section! It's a shame a lot of people don't use it and their feedback and suggestions end up in the wrong forum.
#54 Nov 17 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI was my first big 'traditional' MMO. Being used to single player final fantasy games, I hated it at first, but eventually met some friends (some of whom I still talk to on a daily basis, outside of the game) and had a great time experiencing 'end game' content.

Years passed and someone purchased WoW for me as a Christmas gift. I disliked WoW without even giving it a shot, just because of the general 'counter-strike-like' player-base they had. However, after giving it that 30-day-trial, I fell in love. Total freedom, fun, and interesting twists on what I had learned to be standard from FFXI. A year passed and I was bored (endgame challenge is more of an abrupt 'jump as high as you can' feel, as opposed to the 'overcome this grueling obstacle' that it felt like in FFXI).

For a few years I jumped back and forth between them, and I had hoped that the new 'online' final fantasy would find a happy medium between the two styles (or that tribes 2 would eventually get an mmo counterpart, which actually might be happening from the sounds of it... but its such a pipe dream I can't imagine anyone doing it up to my expectations).

I was thrilled to get a beta key for FFXIV, and was IMMEDIATELY disappointed. The character creation was 'better' but still lack-luster compared to alternative options out there today. The game-play was like FFXI, but... significantly clunkier and cheesier. The graphics barely looked 'better', so much as they did 'shinier' than FFXI. And the 'fun' elements you find in WoW were no where to be found. The UI customization was completely non-existant, down to the most very basic keyboard configurations. I honestly felt like I was playing an alpha of a game that some no-name company threw together as an attempt to compete on the 'free' market. It was so bad that I barely lasted an evening and got completely frustrated with how terrible it was. To top it off, the graphic demand had no scalability, so while on my desktop it ran fine, on my laptop it was completely unplayable.

People in these forums, or this very thread for that matter, are quick to bad-mouth the 'nay-sayers', and rightfully so - as we all naturally defend what we love. But understand that, at least in my case (and I'd imagine many others) - we wanted this to be great. I absolutely loved 13, and thought if it was any inclination of the quality 14 would have, 14 would be worth the tremendous wait we've all put up with for it's release. However, upon playing, its an almost immediate disappointment. A single you-tube video of people 'partying' bores the **** out of anybody watching, where a video of a WoW player fighting is usually somewhat entertaining (movement as opposed to standing still). This leads me to believe the mechanics behind fighting will be strictly a numbers game, and really, FFXI already perfected that element of play-style - so why change away from a game as infinitely large and smooth as that, to a clunkier version of the same thing? I'll tell you why! It's new and its pretty! However.. at the end of the day, when you are on your thousandth giant crab, you stop giving a sh*t how that crab looks, you've seen a thousand of them - you just want to enjoy yourself. So its not that 14 has 'no draw' - its just that it has a very limited, very time sensitive draw based on visuals - which will boil down to feel very superficial very fast. I don't think anyone wanted to see this game succeed more than the players who have been waiting for it, not even the creators themselves (though it impacts them far more directly).

I guess I have a different perspective than I did a few years back. Back then I had nothing but freetime, was playing playstation and pc, and I understood XI was the way it was because of the need to be on both playstation and pc. However, times have changed, I've seen how amazing even the free-to-play MMO games can be, so its very frustrating when an extremely highly respected game design company puts out a game in a very highly respected and sought after series, and it feels closer to 11 year old technology, gameplay mechanics and company ideals than it does a "2010" game geared towards 'freedom'. I also have a wife and a full time job, I play games less than I used to, and an absolute plethora of options for games as alternatives that might better suite my playtime / values. Factor in that if I'm going to play an MMO for as long as I played XI, I think to myself "Hmm, I wonder if my wife would enjoy this with me after work a couple hours a night"... after realizing how 'accustomed' I'd become to XI when I watched her absolutely struggle with how to grasp how to play it during a trial period I had set her up with, and how absolutely bored she was with it... I saw that I could never go back to that level of fumbling with design flaws to find some 'gem' of enjoyability that could be sustained for months at a time... and honestly that's what 14 feels like, sifting through a lot of crap to find some higher level of enjoyment in teamwork. While its there, to some degree, its just not worth the effort anymore.

If it weren't for the fact that when I played WoW it felt like I was watching the movie "Idiocracy" every time I made an effort to interact with the general playerbase - it was a fantastic gaming experience that I'd gladly play through with my wife, because its easy enough to pick-up-and-play that the enjoyment starts right away. My point of mentioning that is simply that the 'pick-up-and-play' mechanics are just not inate in the FF-online series at this point, and they've had many years to establish that as a common goal. The customization, playerbase-centric design, and (despite self-proclaiming the opposite) player-interation / transparency is completely off-base for what we as humans with lives demand if we are to pay a monthly fee today. There are a lot of things I'm willing to pay monthly fees for - being punished to not have fun isn't one of them... at least not anymore.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 3:53pm by FUJILIVES
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#55 Nov 17 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I for one accept their apology for the state of the game at release. I still have enjoyed playing up to this point. I am VERY disappointed that they have decided to allow another free month of game play ( with restrictions ) which allow the "persistent whiners" to continue whining.
I can only hope that yesterdays announcements will alleviate much of the SE bashing.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 4:14pm by NomBrynn
#56 Nov 17 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:


Huh. Fact is every single one of us has at one time or another bought a book or comic we didn't end up liking, or an admission to a movie or a concert that sucked - or whatever. That's just life. I would be shocked to hear of people actually getting their money back simply because whatever they bought wasn't to their taste. (For whatever reason)


Right, but what if you went to that movie and it cut off halfway through? What about if the book you bought had half the pages missing? How about a comic with no actual images? Suppose that concert was for a rock band, but none of the guitarists showed up?

That's the point I was making - the game is half finished and the Devs have admitted it. I'm not saying that people should get their money back just because they didn't like something, I'm saying that they should get their money back because the product wasn't as advertised and the devs have basically said it won't BE as advertised until the next 2-3 patches.

That's not always good enough for some people and I can completely understand where they are coming from.

Edit - and not everyone got into the open beta btw. Open doesn't mean everyone was in it, it just meant the NDA was lifted.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 4:26pm by Torrence
#57 Nov 17 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
the product wasn't as advertised


Anything to back this up?

The product didn't meet your expectations. That much is certain.

Quote:
Right, but what if you went to that movie and it cut off halfway through?


Can you not level to rank 50 (as advertised)?

Quote:
What about if the book you bought had half the pages missing?


Can you not level all the 18 classes currently in-game (as advertised)?

Quote:
ow about a comic with no actual images?


Is the GuildLeve system missing, even though it was advertised?

Quote:
Suppose that concert was for a rock band, but none of the guitarists showed up?


Is there no class change feature, even when they said there would be?
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#58 Nov 17 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
rikkuotaku wrote:


1) SE really screwed the FFXIV release up. I think a two month trial extension is proof of that. I mean that is mind-boggling. SE giving 2 months free of anything? Insane. They know they screwed up and ppl have a right to be upset about it. After all the game itself was far from free.


Yeah, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that they botched the release. So what is your point? They're giving us three months free play time. So you think that is a good reason to bash them more - or proof that they and the game deserves more bashing? Because they said they were sorry and tried to make amends - we should use this as "proof" of why we are justified beating dead horses?

In my world when someone makes and apologies and takes action to make amends - it's time to let bygones be bygones.
Edited, Nov 17th 2010 5:02am by Olorinus


Thank god your not a judge in the real world. NOBODY lets bygones be bygones in the real world, people hold grudges and remember sh*t that ****** them off. You my friend are a prime example of this type of behavior. See your post below.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Xclusive215 (on the Zam) wrote:
After wasting $80 and being so dissapointed with this game in it's current state, I think the only pleasure I might get now, is watching this game crash and burn. That would bring my opinions validation and closure. Hey at least I'm honest right??? Just trying to get my moneys worth. Instead of looking forward to the magical update/patch.. I will be one of the people saying "I told you so"..


Way to contradict yourself Olorinus. First of all, you edited the majority of my post to make me look like some FF "Hater". Secondly, I explained this specific paragraph in a later post that your refused to accept, only solidifying how much bullsh*t your "bygones be bygones" world really is. Here is the full post I wrote:

Full post #1

I quit after 3 weeks. I still check in here for 3 reasons....

Reason 1
Information:
Hopefully the game of my dreams one day will become the game of my dreams, but I might not have enough nights left to see that...

Reason 2
Entertainment:
Zam forums for ffxi were known as a source for great information..
Zam forums for ffxiv are known for a great source of drama and **********

Reason 3
Gratification:
After wasting $80 and being so dissapointed with this game in it's current state, I think the only pleasure I might get now, is watching this game crash and burn. That would bring my opinions validation and closure. Hey at least I'm honest right??? Just trying to get my moneys worth. Instead of looking forward to the magical update/patch.. I will be one of the people saying "I told you so"..

When it comes to mistakes.. like releasing a major mmo title too soon.. I cannot help but to think of this little proverb..

A stupid person never learns from their mistakes,
A smart person learns from their mistakes,
BUT,
A wise person learns from other's mistakes....

Can SE stop being stupid??? who knows!

and this was my justification for Reason 3:

Oh, and as for me trolling because of my reason number 3.. come on man, since you took it upon yourself to berate me in your response thread, I will be the bigger man and refrain from verbally abusing you. I don't incite fights on the interwebs because SE burned me for $80. When I said I could only get satisfaction from watching the game crash and burn, that's what I meant. -for instance:

Seeing SE stock prices plummet - satisfies me
Seeing 1k people per server on average - satisfies me
Seeing SE CEO's publicly denouncing the current state of the game - satisfies me
Seeing SE financial reports showing losses across the board - satisfies me

See I'm a firm believer of the old saying "You sleep in the bed that you make". When a criminal rapes a young girl and leaves her for dead... would you be satisfied if the judge let him go because he promised to be a better citizen in the future...? In my eyes, SE pulled a fast one on me.. and I hope they get what they deserve for releasing a poor excuse for a "Next Gen MMO". And I'm not comparing Raping a girl to putting out a garbage game.. I'm using the analogy for the principal... crime = time....

TLDR: This guy Olorinus says one thing, and then does the opposite... He must work for Square Enix.
#59 Nov 17 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Xclusive215 wrote:

TLDR: This guy Olorinus says one thing, and then does the opposite... He must work for Square Enix.


I am not a guy, or a he, and although I think it would really neat to work for SE (especially right now when people are probably really stressed out and working hard)... unfortunately... I work in another field.
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#60 Nov 17 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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@Exclusive215

I respect your right to your opinion. I even respect your desire to see SE crash and burn for releasing a game that so woefully failed to meet your expectations.

But what i cant understand is how you could possibly compare the rape of a young girl, to the release of a video game. To do so shows a complete lack of humanity, comprehension and decency. I can only assume that you wrote this in a rage and hope that you choose your comparisons more carefully in future.

EDIT - just re-read your post and the proviso that you put on the bottom. Please ignore.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 5:40pm by HallieXIV
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#61 Nov 17 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Comparing failed expectations to the raping of young girls.....
Quote:
See I'm a firm believer of the old saying "You sleep in the bed that you make". When a criminal rapes a young girl and leaves her for dead... would you be satisfied if the judge let him go because he promised to be a better citizen in the future...?


And yes, using that analogy is the same thing as using that example. Crime does equal time, but SE has not committed a crime. The mentallity you have is that of a lynchmob.
Perspective. Smiley: oyvey




Edited, Nov 17th 2010 6:05pm by Teneleven
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#62 Nov 17 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tanaka and Sundi look very unhappy in that picture. :P

I have to say, in some ways I feel bad for them, because this is their baby, and it's gotten hammered (rightly so) which has got to hurt a lot on a personal level. I wonder how much of the premature release was due to the devs saying "it's ready, let's go" and how much was management saying "We need these sales right away." I don't think we'll ever get those answers from any one at S-E.

I would say that interviews like this are largely a waste of time, that the proof is in the pudding and that all that matters is whether they make improvements quickly and well. However, I look around this forum and I recall reading a number of posts from people who actually want apologies and grovelling from the devs, so hopefully this interview and the Wada comments satisfy them enough that they can make a true evaluation of the game going forward.
#63 Nov 17 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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All I want to say is that reading some of the analogies in this thread, some of you are suckers as far as customers go.

Most respectable establishments will refund your money for a product/service you don't like or want if you ask nicely and even have a half-good reason. I imagine most of you who think otherwise are just too passive to actually ASK. And if the teenager at the counter says no, just ask to speak with the manager.

I've returned food at restaurants just because I didn't like it, no problem. I've returned sushi to grocery stores just because I changed my mind and didn't want it. I've got refunds on movies that I decided weren't for me (not after the fact, but during the movie).

Most good managers know that it's worth keeping customers happy to get their repeat business and avoid bad publicity. If you don't come across as a disgruntled *** who can't be consoled regardless, they will typically be understanding of your disappointment and try to make things square.

And if they don't, point out how much business it will cost them when you start telling your friends and publishing online reviews about how bad the service is.

So say what you will, but offering a refund of the disk price would actually make a lot of people who feel ripped off a lot more content with the situation. It's not realistic from a financial situation for SE, but that's very rarely an acceptable excuse for the customer.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#64 Nov 17 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Gadhelyn wrote:
Does SE have a history with XI of not following through with updates that they've announced? I can't remember it really happening, not that I always paid attention to the parts that didn't affect my gameplay.


The only thing I can think of that they utterly scrapped and never implemented was the Colosseum (Which they implied was separate than the Pit) and it's worth mentioning that the pit didn't come until years after the release of ToAU.

And, more noticeably, because they actually posted an update notice about it then it never happened, the whole white Chocobo and special outdoor chocobo race update/thing, can't remember the details.

Anyways, if they say it will be implemented, it will (almost always) be implemented, when is the only question. They are fairly careful to never make definitive statements if something may be scrapped, as there are less than a handful of examples from over 8 years of FFXI service.


There was also a huge pile of job updates from fan fests that they dropped a number of times.
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#65 Nov 17 2010 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
All I want to say is that reading some of the analogies in this thread, some of you are suckers as far as customers go.

Most respectable establishments will refund your money for a product/service you don't like or want if you ask nicely and even have a half-good reason. I imagine most of you who think otherwise are just too passive to actually ASK. And if the teenager at the counter says no, just ask to speak with the manager.

I've returned food at restaurants just because I didn't like it, no problem. I've returned sushi to grocery stores just because I changed my mind and didn't want it. I've got refunds on movies that I decided weren't for me (not after the fact, but during the movie).

Most good managers know that it's worth keeping customers happy to get their repeat business and avoid bad publicity. If you don't come across as a disgruntled *** who can't be consoled regardless, they will typically be understanding of your disappointment and try to make things square.

And if they don't, point out how much business it will cost them when you start telling your friends and publishing online reviews about how bad the service is.

So say what you will, but offering a refund of the disk price would actually make a lot of people who feel ripped off a lot more content with the situation. It's not realistic from a financial situation for SE, but that's very rarely an acceptable excuse for the customer.


Yeah, I have no problem asking for my money back when it seems warranted. For example I once booked a hotel room out of town with my sweetie and it was super noisy with a nightclub pretty much below our room and then drunk people roaming the halls yelling most of the night. I called the front desk several times during the night to express my displeasure. Then, in the morning, when I was checking out they asked me how my stay was and I told them the truth - I wouldn't recommend their establishment to my friends.

They refuded me the price of the room. I think that was justified. I have sent things back at restuarants - but only if it is really wrong/worth my time.

I believe that "the customer is always right" can be a very diseased mind set. The idea that SE should refund the price of the disk is ridiculous because either:

a) It is an issue of taste (see below) and the person is never going to like the game and that is not SE's fault - it is just the way it is. Some people love brocolli, some people hate it. If someone who hates brocolli buys it - I don't think they should be able to return the half eaten florets to the grocery store.

b) They are going to play the game anyway and therefore would have had to buy the disk regardless (if only at a later date). The disk/code is a pre-requisite to playing the game, so why should SE give it away for free just because someone was an early adopter who didn't enjoy themselves?

If I buy a book and I don't like it - that is an issue of taste - I won't try to bring it back. If I buy a book and it isn't the right book or it is missing pages in the middle - yeah I will bring it back. I don't believe businesses are responsible when I misjudge my own taste.

BUT! You might say "FFXIV is like a book missing pages in the middle"

and I don't entirely disagree with you. But in this case SE is replacing the book using the months of free play time. Again - if you are ever going to want to play the game or are ever going to enjoy it in the long term - you would need the disc/code anyway.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#66 Nov 17 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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I acknowledge your point, and it's certainly a situation that is difficult if not impossible to come up with a reasonable solution. I do feel that wanting a refund is warranted, and I understand that if SE did that it would probably be financially devastating, on top of the difficult logistics of it costing further money. Appeasing those people would likely come at the cost to those who continued to play.

Both sides have legitimate points, I feel.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#67 Nov 17 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think asking for a refund would be out of the question, if the CEO wasn't apologizing for putting out a shoddy product.
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#68 Nov 17 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I acknowledge your point, and it's certainly a situation that is difficult if not impossible to come up with a reasonable solution. I do feel that wanting a refund is warranted, and I understand that if SE did that it would probably be financially devastating, on top of the difficult logistics of it costing further money. Appeasing those people would likely come at the cost to those who continued to play.

Both sides have legitimate points, I feel.


Thanks, I appreciate this. I can see people being upset... I just think "what's next?" Should SE refund people who upgraded their computers to play? I guess at a certain point I just think people should accept the loss and move on. I can understand that not everyone feels the same way. But those who are the least satisfied are the least likely to stick around no matter WHAT SE does - so I just can't see it being a reasonable business move for the company to make.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#69 Nov 17 2010 at 8:01 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
And if they don't, point out how much business it will cost them when you start telling your friends and publishing online reviews about how bad the service is.

That is called blackmail.

Kachi wrote:
Most respectable establishments will refund your money for a product/service you don't like or want if you ask nicely and even have a half-good reason.


Unless I have a truly valid reason I just see this as pandering or as a prevention measure to the already mentioned blackmail.

I also keep seeing people saying they want, for this MMO, a "finished product," then I sit here scratching my head. When is a MMO ever a finished product? The only time I can truly think of such a time is when there are no more updates for the MMO in question. So please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be a bad thing to have a finished MMO on release? Or is my ideal of an MMO being a game of constant evolution way off base?
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#70 Nov 17 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I acknowledge your point, and it's certainly a situation that is difficult if not impossible to come up with a reasonable solution. I do feel that wanting a refund is warranted, and I understand that if SE did that it would probably be financially devastating, on top of the difficult logistics of it costing further money. Appeasing those people would likely come at the cost to those who continued to play.

Both sides have legitimate points, I feel.


This is a tricky one.

Rightly or wrongly, often the reason that refunds are provided by companies (be it hotels, restaurants etc) is to avoid upsetting a customer, avoid the potential bad press, and try to retain a customer for the future.

In the hospitality industry, such things are common place.

The problem with SE offering refunds on the box price of the game (as pointed out elsewhere) is that some of the issues are an issue of taste. I have already had more fun from FFXIV than I have some other games which I have purchased and not enjoyed. I have never got my money back on these other gmaes that have not been to my taste though.

What does seem appropriate though is that SE does not continue to charge beyond the box price due to the state of the game. Whatever their motives, SE have not continued to charge (yet).

Assuming SE fix this game to most peoples satisfaction, consider the following scenario.

Person 1 buys FFXIV at launch, plays for three months for free whilst SE fix the game and then enjoys their gaming experience into the future because it is now fixed.

Person 2 buys FFXIV after three months when the game is fixed and enjoys their gaming experience into the future.

Both people have paid the same box price and the same monthly subs - Person 1 had the benefit of starting early and drawing whatever pleasure they could from the game in the first three months (admittedly for some, this is very little pleasure or even pain).

Therefore, I think that the offer of free play without monthly fees is exactly the right thing to do. IT is like a hotel saying - you may come and stay with us a few days a week until we improve our service and then start paying thereafter. Likewise a restaurant offering a few free meals to keep your custom and show you how good they can be after a disappointing experience in the first place.

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#71 Nov 17 2010 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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Masterlinktm wrote:
Kachi wrote:
And if they don't, point out how much business it will cost them when you start telling your friends and publishing online reviews about how bad the service is.

That is called blackmail.

Kachi wrote:
Most respectable establishments will refund your money for a product/service you don't like or want if you ask nicely and even have a half-good reason.


Unless I have a truly valid reason I just see this as pandering or as a prevention measure to the already mentioned blackmail.

I also keep seeing people saying they want, for this MMO, a "finished product," then I sit here scratching my head. When is a MMO ever a finished product? The only time I can truly think of such a time is when there are no more updates for the MMO in question. So please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be a bad thing to have a finished MMO on release? Or is my ideal of an MMO being a game of constant evolution way off base?


When people are paying money for a product, they are entitled to expect that it will be as described and fit for the purpose it was intended. WHere it is not, complaining, taking your business elsewhere or telling others is not blackmail.

That said, there is a question of whether FFXIV is actually not "as described" or "fit for the purpose it was intended". Obviously there are people on these boards who sit on both sides of that fence (and some who are still on the fence).
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#72 Nov 17 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Therefore, I think that the offer of free play without monthly fees is exactly the right thing to do. IT is like a hotel saying - you may come and stay with us a few days a week until we improve our service and then start paying thereafter. Likewise a restaurant offering a few free meals to keep your custom and show you how good they can be after a disappointing experience in the first place.


Yes, but in those cases, they will also simply refund your money and let you go on your way.
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#73 Nov 17 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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Masterlinktm wrote:


I also keep seeing people saying they want, for this MMO, a "finished product," then I sit here scratching my head. When is a MMO ever a finished product? The only time I can truly think of such a time is when there are no more updates for the MMO in question. So please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be a bad thing to have a finished MMO on release? Or is my ideal of an MMO being a game of constant evolution way off base?


Glad to know there are people like you around. When I release my new mmo that will have:

1 male and 1 female avatar for you to choose from ( more choices and customization will be added some indeterminate time after release);

one mob ( other mobs will be added some indeterminate time after release) for you to continuously whack (and fight over with other players) for months to get one level out of 300;

1 "map" copied and pasted 1000 times to provide you a "huge" world to explore (there won't be anything in it, but you can explore all of it; more content will be added some indeterminate time after release);

an IRC client to chat while playing ( ingame chat will be added some indeterminate time after release);

I will expect you to be one of the first to pay me $70 for the box and $15 a month until I get around to patching everything in.

After all, what mmo is ever released "finished"?

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 9:15pm by Zorvan
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#74 Nov 17 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Default
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KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:

Therefore, I think that the offer of free play without monthly fees is exactly the right thing to do. IT is like a hotel saying - you may come and stay with us a few days a week until we improve our service and then start paying thereafter. Likewise a restaurant offering a few free meals to keep your custom and show you how good they can be after a disappointing experience in the first place.


Yes, but in those cases, they will also simply refund your money and let you go on your way.


Maybe I am wrong but a hotel would not refund your money if your complaints related to not liking the color of the sheets on the bed.

Where such things are purely a matter of taste - it works slightly differently (in my experience).

THe hospitality industry is also very different so comparisons admittedly dont really work. Previously provided analogies of books, cd's and the like would be better.
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#75 Nov 17 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:

Therefore, I think that the offer of free play without monthly fees is exactly the right thing to do. IT is like a hotel saying - you may come and stay with us a few days a week until we improve our service and then start paying thereafter. Likewise a restaurant offering a few free meals to keep your custom and show you how good they can be after a disappointing experience in the first place.


Yes, but in those cases, they will also simply refund your money and let you go on your way.


Maybe I am wrong but a hotel would not refund your money if your complaints related to not liking the color of the sheets on the bed.

Where such things are purely a matter of taste - it works slightly differently (in my experience).

THe hospitality industry is also very different so comparisons admittedly dont really work. Previously provided analogies of books, cd's and the like would be better.


I'll stop dancing around hypotheticals, When the CEO of the company comes out and says "sorry, we'll try and do better, and we want to regain trust", that is a **** good reason to want your money back, and for SE, a **** good way to go about earning it. This is no longer a simple matter of taste.
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#76 Nov 17 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Default
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You are right.

But the CEO had to come out and say that because 80% of the community were baying for blood over the release of the game.

I would have played regardless of the November updates. I enjoy the game but I accept that it is not currently to everyones taste.

If they fix the game and people do start to enjoy it - what would the point have been in refunding the box price?

I personally hated Dragon Age (though I know most people loved it). I could not get my money back for my bad purchase though! I have to date got a lot more fun out of playing FFXIV than DA for around the same price.
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#77 Nov 17 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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2,120 posts
You're also buying the game knowing full well the situation. You open it and use the code...done deal. If you weren't sure you'd be happy with it(playing beta or following the news) or knew nothing about the game & still bought it then that's a risk you chose to take. No one else is responsible for that decision...

I get that free months is a ****** notion to someone who doesn't enjoy the game. "Oh you're dissatisfied with our product? Here's more of it!" I totally get why that's like a slap in the face to some. It's probably the best they can offer though...

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:01pm by TwistedOwl
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#78 Nov 17 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
HallieXIV wrote:
You are right.

But the CEO had to come out and say that because 80% of the community were baying for blood over the release of the game.

I would have played regardless of the November updates. I enjoy the game but I accept that it is not currently to everyones taste.

If they fix the game and people do start to enjoy it - what would the point have been in refunding the box price?

I personally hated Dragon Age (though I know most people loved it). I could not get my money back for my bad purchase though! I have to date got a lot more fun out of playing FFXIV than DA for around the same price.


responding to the bold part, basically users choice. When you "wrong" someone (and I use that term fairly loosely), you let them decide how you can make it up, you can't just offer what you're willing to (fair as it may be) and they have to take it.

Using your estimation, 80% of the people who bought this game were disappointed by it. Doesn't that imply there is a good chance that this game did not resemble what it was advertised as, and would therefore warrant an apology.

Finally, Did you actually try and return Dragon's Age? I know alot of retailers will accept them back. Companies actually account for a % of their products to be returned for such reasons.
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#79 Nov 17 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Default
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HallieXIV wrote:
Masterlinktm wrote:
Kachi wrote:
And if they don't, point out how much business it will cost them when you start telling your friends and publishing online reviews about how bad the service is.

That is called blackmail.

Kachi wrote:
Most respectable establishments will refund your money for a product/service you don't like or want if you ask nicely and even have a half-good reason.


Unless I have a truly valid reason I just see this as pandering or as a prevention measure to the already mentioned blackmail.


When people are paying money for a product, they are entitled to expect that it will be as described and fit for the purpose it was intended. WHere it is not, complaining, taking your business elsewhere or telling others is not blackmail.

That said, there is a question of whether FFXIV is actually not "as described" or "fit for the purpose it was intended". Obviously there are people on these boards who sit on both sides of that fence (and some who are still on the fence).


That is very true, however, Kachi is saying in the post, gratify me or I go out and ruin your business. That is the very definition of blackmail.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:00pm by Masterlinktm
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#80 Nov 17 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
You are right.

But the CEO had to come out and say that because 80% of the community were baying for blood over the release of the game.

I would have played regardless of the November updates. I enjoy the game but I accept that it is not currently to everyones taste.

If they fix the game and people do start to enjoy it - what would the point have been in refunding the box price?

I personally hated Dragon Age (though I know most people loved it). I could not get my money back for my bad purchase though! I have to date got a lot more fun out of playing FFXIV than DA for around the same price.


responding to the bold part, basically users choice. When you "wrong" someone (and I use that term fairly loosely), you let them decide how you can make it up, you can't just offer what you're willing to (fair as it may be) and they have to take it.

Using your estimation, 80% of the people who bought this game were disappointed by it. Doesn't that imply there is a good chance that this game did not resemble what it was advertised as, and would therefore warrant an apology.

Finally, Did you actually try and return Dragon's Age? I know alot of retailers will accept them back. Companies actually account for a % of their products to be returned for such reasons.


Point taken re "wronging someone" but as you note - the term must be used loosely as SE probably release a game that they thought was good. The apology came later as a bunch of people told them in no uncertain terms that the game was (in their opinion) not good enough.

I suspect that it is somewhat less than 80%. The vocal minority certainly would lead me to believe that it is around 80% though. I picked 80% to err on the side of caution and not be flamed for suggesting people like the game - I certainly know some who do enjoy it.

On the subject of returning games. I purchased DA on the PC and in Australia (I cant comment on elsewhere), EB will not accept PC games returned once opened and installed so no, I did not have a choice. I just uninstalled, licked my wounds and felt sorry for having wasted the money.
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#81 Nov 17 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,636 posts
HallieXIV wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
You are right.

But the CEO had to come out and say that because 80% of the community were baying for blood over the release of the game.

I would have played regardless of the November updates. I enjoy the game but I accept that it is not currently to everyones taste.

If they fix the game and people do start to enjoy it - what would the point have been in refunding the box price?

I personally hated Dragon Age (though I know most people loved it). I could not get my money back for my bad purchase though! I have to date got a lot more fun out of playing FFXIV than DA for around the same price.


responding to the bold part, basically users choice. When you "wrong" someone (and I use that term fairly loosely), you let them decide how you can make it up, you can't just offer what you're willing to (fair as it may be) and they have to take it.

Using your estimation, 80% of the people who bought this game were disappointed by it. Doesn't that imply there is a good chance that this game did not resemble what it was advertised as, and would therefore warrant an apology.

Finally, Did you actually try and return Dragon's Age? I know alot of retailers will accept them back. Companies actually account for a % of their products to be returned for such reasons.


Point taken re "wronging someone" but as you note - the term must be used loosely as SE probably release a game that they thought was good. The apology came later as a bunch of people told them in no uncertain terms that the game was (in their opinion) not good enough.

I suspect that it is somewhat less than 80%. The vocal minority certainly would lead me to believe that it is around 80% though. I picked 80% to err on the side of caution and not be flamed for suggesting people like the game - I certainly know some who do enjoy it.

On the subject of returning games. I purchased DA on the PC and in Australia (I cant comment on elsewhere), EB will not accept PC games returned once opened and installed so no, I did not have a choice. I just uninstalled, licked my wounds and felt sorry for having wasted the money.


I think the only way they did actually "Wrong" people was by describing the game poorly. They called it solo friendly, and while yes, you can do things by yourself, its much like FFXI in that progressing isn't really one of them. Soloing for SP purposes isnt much better than soloing for EXP was in FFXI. Thats about the biggest for me, I wont hunt down any more examples because I don't want it to be my fault if this thread goes south.

I thought 80% was a bit high too, but it doesn't really matter. Its a significant number. SE saw how many cancels they were getting and felt something had to be done, so its clearly a big number to them.

PC games are really crappy in that aspect. Not only are players having to deal with tons of DRM, they also can't return games after they've bought them. I get that you can't return disks because the product codes can't be used again, however there is zero reason that computer game companies cannot offer an option to refund money in exchange from killing the account (in regards to online games at least). But they don't do it because they don't have to, and they're getting away with their stuff being buyer beware.
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#82 Nov 17 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:


I'll stop dancing around hypotheticals, When the CEO of the company comes out and says "sorry, we'll try and do better, and we want to regain trust", that is a **** good reason to want your money back, and for SE, a **** good way to go about earning it. This is no longer a simple matter of taste.


I'm sorry but I don't agree. In fact I think you have it completely backwards. I think that when the CEO and the lead developers say "We're sorry, we need to do better" and they've backed up their mea culpa by providing two months of game time "for free" then they're already doing every thing they reasonably can in order to satisfy the customer.

FFXIV is not unsafe. It doesn't contain hardcore **** embedded in an easter egg. The game discs don't contain a virus. There's no reason why any reasonable company would offer an unconditional refund just because a game's bad, especially when they're giving away free game time, and working to correct the flaws in the game.

Based on your post it almost seems like the only thing that S-E did was to admit the obvious, that the game had major flaws. By that rationale, if Wada had told his customers to sit and spin, then all would be okay.


Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:23pm by KarlHungis
#83 Nov 17 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Default
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KarlHungis wrote:
[quote=KujaKoF]


FFXIV is not unsafe. It doesn't contain hardcore **** embedded in an easter egg. The game discs don't contain a virus. There's no reason why any reasonable company would offer an unconditional refund just because a game's bad, especially when they're giving away free game time, and working to correct the flaws in the game.


Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:23pm by KarlHungis


I know what I want for Easter - so where do I buy these easter eggs, and can I have 10 please!

If I knew how to do it - I would add the first two sentences of this post to my sig - genius, pure genius!

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:28pm by HallieXIV
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#84 Nov 17 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
2 posts
I've been reading the refunding arugment and I would just like to state that Blizzard offers refunds for WoW if you are not satisfied within your first 30 days of purchase.
#85 Nov 17 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:


I'll stop dancing around hypotheticals, When the CEO of the company comes out and says "sorry, we'll try and do better, and we want to regain trust", that is a **** good reason to want your money back, and for SE, a **** good way to go about earning it. This is no longer a simple matter of taste.


I'm sorry but I don't agree. In fact I think you have it completely backwards. I think that when the CEO and the lead developers say "We're sorry, we need to do better" and they've backed up their mea culpa by providing two months of game time "for free" then they're already doing every thing they reasonably can in order to satisfy the customer.

FFXIV is not unsafe. It doesn't contain hardcore **** embedded in an easter egg. The game discs don't contain a virus. There's no reason why any reasonable company would offer an unconditional refund just because a game's bad, especially when they're giving away free game time, and working to correct the flaws in the game.

Based on your post it almost seems like the only thing that S-E did was to admit the obvious, that the game had major flaws. By that rationale, if Wada had told his customers to sit and spin, then all would be okay.


Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:23pm by KarlHungis


Well for one, you're right. They don't have to do anything. Thats the way computer, and especially online games work. The product is not defective, dangerous, and there is no legal requirement for them to refund. But thats not what we were talking about. I wasn't looking at this from an obligation point of view, but rather of customer service.

They released a game in September. I wanted to be playing a good game in September. They have gone ahead and admitted it wasn't a very good game in their opinion. Now they are giving away some free time to allow people to see the first round of improvement. I feel it would be considered VERY good customer service if they allowed people who were disappointed in their product on initial release the ability to recover their money, and have their account deleted.

I can think of a fairly close example (but I'm sure someone'll pick it apart). I am buying my daughter a birthday cake. I find a basic cake design that I agree to, and then the baker tells me that he will write happy birthday on it and put an icing bear on the top. So i pay up front, and when I go to pick up the cake the bear is upside down and the happy birthday is full of typos. So the baker tells me hes sorry and will get the cake fixed in 2 days, but I don't want it then, I need a cake today. In this case, I feel justified in wanting my money back so that I could go buy another cake from a different baker.


Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:42pm by KujaKoF
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#86 Nov 17 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Default
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tonten wrote:
I've been reading the refunding arugment and I would just like to state that Blizzard offers refunds for WoW if you are not satisfied within your first 30 days of purchase.


Does anyone know whether this was implemented in the first 2 months of WoW's existence? I suspect not!
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#87 Nov 17 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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lurex wrote:
If they are TRULY sorry, they would offer a refund of the software purchase for those who are disatisifed.


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#88 Nov 17 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I would not ask for a refund. But I don't see the problem some people have with others getting a refund.
It does not affect any of you whether someone else gets a refund so why should you care?
It makes no sense to me.
Also, if someone gets a refund they have no more arguments to make and they can move on.
#89 Nov 17 2010 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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1,606 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I was not "stupid" as you call it when I purchased this game. I paid for a Cake and got the batter.


If that is not stupid, then what is? You, willingly, paid for a Cake to get a batter.

Actually, you thought it was cake but did not bother checking what's inside the package. You blindly trusted that because there is the bakery logo in the product there would be a cake inside. Yet the bakery even gave you a free sample of the nearly-finished so called "cake" to see what it's Really like and you still decided to go for it and make the purchase.

And the bakery should give you a refund for that?

Quote:
Why do you continue to call people who were expecting a finished product "stupid"?


Because you went and paid for the product simply based on your "expectations". Nobody told you to do it. Nobody forced you. You were given a free sample of said product. The company didn't even market the game to be anything more than it was. Why should they give you a refund for acting irrationally?

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 9:13pm by Hyanmen


You tend to scare the crap out of me, Hy. I am scared that your mentality will continue on and the future of video games will be freaking bleak because I guess in some twisted sense you are right. SE could have released FFXIV with 1 class, 2 leves and 0 mobs to fight and there wouldn't be a single freaking thing we could do about it. That's probably the single thing that's bugged me the most about this entire situation is we have no recourse. So long as the discs in the package aren't broken, we're screwed. I am seeing a trend of companies releasing some really crappy games because they know we're stuck. What are we going to do? Get mainstream press attention? Yeah, right. I still run across people in stores who apparently think that if an adult wants to buy a video game than they must have some kind of Peter Pan complex and are mentally challenged. And because of registration codes, they often won't take console games back either. They know they can **** all over us and all we can do is to ask them to please not get it in our mouths. It just gets so old. I try to look at the positives and all that good stuff but I still know that I've just been peed on and that sort of sucks to me. Almost no other market that I can think of can get away with doing this sort of stuff. They treat us like we are joke half the time and that we should be on our knees kissing their boots for the privilege of even getting to play 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 finished games and I know there's not much I can do if I also want to play video games. To paraphrase Jim Carey in Liar, Liar I guess I'm just going to bend over and take it up the tailpipe. Just like the rest of you.
#90 Nov 17 2010 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
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"Because you went and paid for the product simply based on your "expectations". Nobody told you to do it. Nobody forced you. You were given a free sample of said product. The company didn't even market the game to be anything more than it was. Why should they give you a refund for acting irrationally? "

expectations I have never played a game with this many flaws in it, and I've played a lot of em.

forced No one was forced to buy this game, WTF kind of argument is that anyway. Name one game someone was "forced" to buy

free sample The whole point of a beta test is to get feedback, and make changes based on said feedback.

marketing I don't recall any ads for the game, maybe there was a reason they didn't spend any money on ads, such as "this game sucks we better not wast any money advertising it".

irrational Can't argue with you there. ALL the reviews said the game was "sub-par".




#91 Nov 17 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:
tonten wrote:
I've been reading the refunding arugment and I would just like to state that Blizzard offers refunds for WoW if you are not satisfied within your first 30 days of purchase.


Does anyone know whether this was implemented in the first 2 months of WoW's existence? I suspect not!


no wow never offered "refunds" so i dont know where the **** that came from

however, wow, like every new mmo, had MAJOR ui issues when it came out, im sure alot of people who were there remember how you couldnt loot mobs or youd crash or freeze for 5+ minutes...

with all the issues it had, it actualy extended free time also to people, just not by full months, just by "days"
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#92 Nov 17 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That is called blackmail.

Kachi wrote:
Most respectable establishments will refund your money for a product/service you don't like or want if you ask nicely and even have a half-good reason.


Unless I have a truly valid reason I just see this as pandering or as a prevention measure to the already mentioned blackmail.


lol, not really. Blackmail typically refers to CRIMINAL acts, and the act of using knowledge of those criminal acts for personal gain. In blackmail, I know something that I should report to the authorities, but instead extort money from that person in trade of that information, effectively making me culpable for their own illegal activity. That is why blackmail is a crime.

Now, in a colloquial sense, yes, it's blackmail by a different definition, but it's also not wrong. Throwing around a loaded word like blackmail in this case is like telling someone who announces the differences between apples and oranges that they're discriminating. Would you then go around telling others, "Hey, that guy discriminates!"? Yes, technically they are, but not in the sense that is actually frowned upon.

A consumer has the right to express their opinion of a product or service. These are not only completely legal, but there are channels set up solely for the purpose of protecting consumer interests. If a consumer's claim is FALSE and causes substantive loss to the business, THEN that business may be able to pursue charges of libel or slander. However, if the claim is true, even if merely a matter of opinion (e.g., "The food was gross."), then the consumer arguably has the responsibility, and definitely the right, to let the general population know about the business' practices.

In short, there is nothing unethical about telling the truth about a business in order to cost them consumer patronage in the future. As a consumer, it's courteous to give the business the opportunity to make things right before walking away with a poor opinion, one that will likely be shared with others and affect business anyway.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#93 Nov 17 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:


I didn't suggest anyone should kiss SE's feet, did I? No. I don't even expect you to believe that the HIGHLY DETAILED VAGUE update plans they have released are anything but a ruse to keep you playing while the game is free. It would be nice,however, if people saved their complaints for after SE fails to come through instead of beating the dead horse before it even arrives.



Edited, Nov 17th 2010 5:02am by Olorinus



Fixed
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WoW: we want to give players a more fun time with less grinding and generic quests
GW2: we want the player to feel like they are leveling while doing something fun
Final Fantasy XIV: we want less fun and more grinding
#94 Nov 17 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Excellent
2 posts
Vedis wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
tonten wrote:
I've been reading the refunding arugment and I would just like to state that Blizzard offers refunds for WoW if you are not satisfied within your first 30 days of purchase.


Does anyone know whether this was implemented in the first 2 months of WoW's existence? I suspect not!


no wow never offered "refunds" so i dont know where the **** that came from

however, wow, like every new mmo, had MAJOR ui issues when it came out, im sure alot of people who were there remember how you couldnt loot mobs or youd crash or freeze for 5+ minutes...

with all the issues it had, it actualy extended free time also to people, just not by full months, just by "days"




http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

First Paragraph.

I'm pretty sure they offered refunds when WoW first came out too. I'll search up on it.

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 12:11am by tonten

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 12:16am by tonten
#95 Nov 17 2010 at 11:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
That is called blackmail.

Kachi wrote:
Most respectable establishments will refund your money for a product/service you don't like or want if you ask nicely and even have a half-good reason.


Unless I have a truly valid reason I just see this as pandering or as a prevention measure to the already mentioned blackmail.


lol, not really. Blackmail typically refers to CRIMINAL acts, and the act of using knowledge of those criminal acts for personal gain. In blackmail, I know something that I should report to the authorities, but instead extort money from that person in trade of that information, effectively making me culpable for their own illegal activity. That is why blackmail is a crime.

Now, in a colloquial sense, yes, it's blackmail by a different definition, but it's also not wrong. Throwing around a loaded word like blackmail in this case is like telling someone who announces the differences between apples and oranges that they're discriminating. Would you then go around telling others, "Hey, that guy discriminates!"? Yes, technically they are, but not in the sense that is actually frowned upon.

A consumer has the right to express their opinion of a product or service. These are not only completely legal, but there are channels set up solely for the purpose of protecting consumer interests. If a consumer's claim is FALSE and causes substantive loss to the business, THEN that business may be able to pursue charges of libel or slander. However, if the claim is true, even if merely a matter of opinion (e.g., "The food was gross."), then the consumer arguably has the responsibility, and definitely the right, to let the general population know about the business' practices.

In short, there is nothing unethical about telling the truth about a business in order to cost them consumer patronage in the future. As a consumer, it's courteous to give the business the opportunity to make things right before walking away with a poor opinion, one that will likely be shared with others and affect business anyway.


Yeah, the term you're looking for is ultimatum. Blackmail refers to a situation where you have physical, indisputable proof that a wrongdoing was committed, and you offer to withhold this proof (and save the target from the damages that releasing it would cause) in exchange for extortion.

Ultimatum refers to a situation where you're threatening a certain action or recourse if your demands are not met, without regard to having actual proof of wrongdoing.

If I bought a copy of FFXIV and it had anthrax in it and I told SE that I would refrain from informing authorities in exchange for $250,000, THAT is blackmail.

If I buy a copy of FFXIV, don't like it, and threaten to tell all of my friends unless they refund me, that is an ultimatum.

And besides, even if SE did refund someone's money, how does that stop you from "telling your friends"? Do you have some written contract saying that "SE hereby offers to give you back your $75 and in return if we hear that you are badmouthing the game, we will come sue you for breach of contract"?

It's true that most companies offer refunds to appease customers. Some will even offer recalls of hazardous or unsafe products. But very few companies are going to refund a product that you "just didn't like". I'm not saying none will; I'm sure some will... but most won't. See, the thing is, if you're THAT disgruntled to the point that you're threatening to hurt their business if they don't appease you and you aren't giving them the inclination that you're going to buy their products again, then you aren't really giving them a reason to "win you back", so to speak.

The best customer relations experiences I've had (not necessarily with SE, but with other companies) were ones where I've voiced my complaint to a manager and made a point of saying that "I like your product/service, and usually I'm happy with it, and I would like to continue using your product." I've done this with newegg once; they refused to take back a card that wouldn't fit in my case when I realized the card looked smaller in the picture than it was. At first they would not accept the return, and then they tried to charge a restocking fee. I explained to the person that I have spent thousands of dollars with newegg, they are my favorite place to buy computer parts from, and I plan to upgrade my system in 2 to 3 months and spend several hundred more than this video card I would like to return has cost me. I would rather buy my parts from newegg, if newegg still wants me as a customer. I have never asked to return or exchange any part in as long as I have been buying from this site, and am simply asking for one exception to be made so that I can feel confident in my future purchases from newegg.

In the end, I got my refund without a restocking fee, and I still swear by newegg.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
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#96 Nov 18 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Default
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315 posts
funny no one here recalls how buggy ffxiv beta was, how many times ffxiv beta was canceled, and how up untill 2 mnths before release if that beta was only 3 days away for 4-6 hours?
they had 0 time to add stuff with all the bug fixes. So iIn reality SE is not admiting to fault nor it was SE fault for realising the game as it was. This is an mmorpg, NEVER a finished single player game.
Only thing se ever said was they was sorry for the game for being bad.
TRUST ME when i say game making IS NOT EASY. And gotta relise SE IS working on the game. it does take TIME to test updates/ changes/ bug fixes. How old is ffxiv? not JUST 3 mnths old if that.
Also being a CURRENT player of ffxi. SE had no issues with updates. The changes to smn was a tad late but honestly, people still use them as main healers. And also they actually did alot of changes to smn. they added diablos, odin and alexander. They also fixed how blood pacts were done/ organised. They also added Avatar favors.
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#97 Nov 18 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
^^^

What did you wrote ?
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#98 Nov 18 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Default
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315 posts
Ostia wrote:
^^^

What did you wrote ?

that 1> look at the whole picture not what you think what happen.
2> understand really why SE is saying sorry
3> that the BS about ffxi is BS. played from ps2 launch and currently got it running on my 360.
and that 4> stop talking smack with assumptions. Stop talking smack as if you know how to develope a mmorpg. :)

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 1:54am by Irishclass777
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#99 Nov 18 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
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315 posts
I'm sorry, but this refund argument is getting bit odd.

As several have pointed out, you don't get a refund for other games that did not fit your taste or that felt incomplete. One such game that felt incomplete, to me, was Legendary. Could I get a refund...no...

But also the difference is, even with a hotel stay, or food, you pay that one price, and yes can get something back if you don't like it. But there is a difference, MMOs evolve, and get better over time through updates. And this for the one time price of the game, aside form monthly fees. You can't expect a hotel to evolve and change, or a restaurant, and still only have paid that single price to take advantage of it.
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#100 Nov 18 2010 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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991 posts
tonten wrote:
Vedis wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
tonten wrote:
I've been reading the refunding arugment and I would just like to state that Blizzard offers refunds for WoW if you are not satisfied within your first 30 days of purchase.


Does anyone know whether this was implemented in the first 2 months of WoW's existence? I suspect not!


no wow never offered "refunds" so i dont know where the **** that came from

however, wow, like every new mmo, had MAJOR ui issues when it came out, im sure alot of people who were there remember how you couldnt loot mobs or youd crash or freeze for 5+ minutes...

with all the issues it had, it actualy extended free time also to people, just not by full months, just by "days"




http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

First Paragraph.

I'm pretty sure they offered refunds when WoW first came out too. I'll search up on it.

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 12:11am by tonten

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 12:16am by tonten


ok i just read it, and its not what you think it is

read the line after it mentions refunds

it says the moment you agree to the terms of service, and create an account, you lose eligibility

what its stating is you can get a refund....if you havent installed it basicaly, as per the following sentence in it

"ONCE YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS OF USE, THE BATTLE.NET TERMS OF USE, AND THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT, YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND."


again i say, they DO NOT offer real refunds because of people disliking the product after purchasing and playing it(perhaps i shoulda been more clear on that)
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#101 Nov 18 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
28 posts
valeforheya1984 wrote:
ill be honest at times some of the bugs get me ticked off. (like mobe randmly running around and regening hp sometimes) but over all the game has alot there. once they add some goals like higher end content more ppl will be motavatid to get there and have fun.

one thing i notised alot. unless alot of ppl see big numbers (like damage expicaly with alot of amaricens) they think there toon sucks. i remember this from exp pts in xi.


I know its off topic but...

1. Am I the only one who hates the phrase "toon"?

2. I have never really thought about it that way, but yeah, I guess people just do get off on big numbers. If people were hitting for like 400 instead of like 40 at level one they might just like it 10 times more =)
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