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The Impossible Task Of LevelingFollow

#1 Nov 17 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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SE has claimed that this game is "friendly to casual and solo players"

However that stops at aroun Rank 20.

For some time i have now been in the 40s. However now that i am back to work (after a week off) i cant get off my current Rank. Literally the only people on my server that are 40+ are japanese players who play in my morning (i am from UK) so by the time i get home from work they are offline and sleeping or what not. Which leaves about 3-4 people within my rank range that maybe online, now you can expect these to be on all the time, infact if just one isnt on it can cause a problem, due to lack of tank or healer etc.

Now the SP needed to get from 40-50 is VERY roughly around 500,000 maybe? (as i say very rough, i know its 200,000 from 48 to 50)

So, why dont i solo? Well in solo i get on average 0-70 SP a kill, plus the time it takes to kill these monsters is quiet some duration (normally 1-2 minutes maybe)

Maths lesson -

Average the SP at 35
and the fighting time to 90 seconds

500,000 / 35 = 14286 is the number of monsters i need to kill!
14286 x 90 = 1285715 is the number of seconds i need to kill these!
1285715 / 60 = 21429 is the number of minutes
21429 / 60 = 357.14 hours THAT IS OVER TWO WEEKS!

Now remember that isnt two weeks inc sleep work etc thats two weeks of play time!

If you play 3 hours everyday then your looking at 119 days!

Now even if you double that SP gain your still looking at just under 60 days!

Now maybe you dont play one day! or you go away for a few days etc that is still insane!

I have seen people do 40-50 in DAYS in a party, being a part of parties inc the japanese ones i went from 37-42 in like 2-3 days.

Now i enjoy PT play but sometimes i want to solo now OK this isnt stopping me but i dont want solo play to be me banging my head against a wall for 60 days!


---------------------- This is all rough maths since im not making a paper for a prof and all based on my server.
#2 Nov 17 2010 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I know, it's definitely a problem. Hopefully they will iron it out, or at least provide enough content that there's something other than grinding to do for a good chunk of that SP.
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#3 Nov 17 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Casual-friendly does not equal quick and easy.
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#4 Nov 17 2010 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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I don't have a problem with difficult, but I get the strong impression that it's more like "extremely slow and extremely easy," which is about the worst way to go about it.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#5 Nov 17 2010 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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pick another job an level that till there are more people your rank.
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#6 Nov 17 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Would you rather have this accomplished in a month? Then everyone would be at cap.. and leveling their second/third job. That's the difference between hardcore and casual players.

I play about 3-4 hours/day at best, a little more on the weekends. (soon to be a whole lot less) I consider myself a casual player, and have no issues with that. If someone gets to level 50 before me, good on them.. I just don't have the time. I enjoy the journey, as I did in FFXI - getting to cap isn't a big importance to me though.
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#7 Nov 17 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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My only real concern is if they raise the cap. Right now the grind is serious, but you shouldn't be expecting to be near the cap within the first couple months. However, if the cap becomes 60, 65, 75... It's a little nauseating to think about how much time would be required to level any one class to completion.

It would be far worse than XI was, yet I thought XIV was supposed to cater more to the casual player? This could go the other way, where even in comparison to XI, it caters more to the hard core.
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#8 Nov 17 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to say, working as intended. One of the things I liked so much about FFXI and the thing that made it so unique was that leveling required group play. In FFXIV, the developers made it so you "could" solo, something that was near impossible in FFXI, but after Rank 20 partying is still the optimal method of earning reliable SP quickly.

This is the way it should be. Having the "optimal" method of leveling require group play helps forge better players, and a better community. That's what made FFXI's community & group style so unique...and that is something I definitely feel FFXIV needs. The difference is that you can solo, it's just not fast by any means.
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#9 Nov 17 2010 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Ryneguy wrote:
This is the way it should be. Having the "optimal" method of leveling require group play helps forge better players, and a better community. That's what made FFXI's community & group style so unique...and that is something I definitely feel FFXIV needs. The difference is that you can solo, it's just not fast by any means.


Group leveling would be great but there aren't any players around to group with unless you happen to be in an LS with a lot of active players. Being able to search for players instead of search for parties would probably help. For now, the choice for most people is to grind out 2k/hr solo, craft, or quit.
#10 Nov 17 2010 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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the issue is you COULD solo in FFXI, It was slow and tedious and lonely and boring but you could.

FFXIV is 100% the same. I have no problem with it being hard **** i prefer that! But look at the difference in time it takes to level between PT and Solo its not slight its huge. It takes from a few days in a PT to Months solo. That isnt friendly to casual players or solo players. Now i understand PTs need a bonus for being in a PT, but i think Solo needs a bonus or a buff.

Would you want to spend every 3hours or so a day playing that you spend, grinding the same mobs in the same place with the same moves at the same rank before you rank up even once?

Its not just about the time but how un-rewarding and dull it is.

I was just throwing out the rough maths, not saying there is a right or wrong answer but to me this seems like a problem.
#11 Nov 17 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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wallace87 wrote:
the issue is you COULD solo in FFXI, It was slow and tedious and lonely and boring but you could.

FFXIV is 100% the same. I have no problem with it being hard **** i prefer that! But look at the difference in time it takes to level between PT and Solo its not slight its huge. It takes from a few days in a PT to Months solo. That isnt friendly to casual players or solo players. Now i understand PTs need a bonus for being in a PT, but i think Solo needs a bonus or a buff.

Would you want to spend every 3hours or so a day playing that you spend, grinding the same mobs in the same place with the same moves at the same rank before you rank up even once?

Its not just about the time but how un-rewarding and dull it is.

I was just throwing out the rough maths, not saying there is a right or wrong answer but to me this seems like a problem.


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#12 Nov 17 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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RisonSrithuram wrote:
Would you rather have this accomplished in a month? Then everyone would be at cap.. and leveling their second/third job. That's the difference between hardcore and casual players.

I play about 3-4 hours/day at best, a little more on the weekends. (soon to be a whole lot less) I consider myself a casual player, and have no issues with that. If someone gets to level 50 before me, good on them.. I just don't have the time. I enjoy the journey, as I did in FFXI - getting to cap isn't a big importance to me though.


^ this.

hardcore players who have the time to play this game much longer than the typical casual player will likely hit the level cap in a few weeks/months. Grats to them. But if you claim to be a casual player and complain about not being able to reach level 50 in a month on a tight schedule than you're simply delusional. This game is indeed casual-friendly. The fact its even possible to solo to the level cap is a huge step above what ffxi offered, where you pretty much HAD to party in order to get anywhere close to the level cap. Also, the term casual and solo are not always mutual. It sounds like to me, that the OP is upset that solo play is getting less exp than party play. Well if they didnt' make it so, then there would be no incentive to party in the first place. If anything, this game needs more to differentiate solo play from group play, not make it more "fair".
#13 Nov 17 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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What's at the cap?

That's the question. What is it that people think is going to be there for them when they arrive? What's the goal? Why the rush? If you can't enjoy the process, grinding to the cap isn't going to change anything for you. It almost seems like someone would be better off trying a different class that they might actually enjoy playing and then they can focus on the process instead of grinding to the cap doing something they don't enjoy just so they can be at the cap. I don't really enjoy Conjurer or Thaumaturge at all and motivating myself to push them both to 20 isn't easy, but it's a short-term goal that won't result in dozens upon dozens of hours of abject boredom. And when they're at 20 I can go back to Gladiator...a class I do enjoy quite a lot...and continue working towards the cap.

I learned a long time ago that the carrot always tastes like **** when you finally reach it if the process of getting to it wasn't fun. And if you're just chasing it for the sake of saying you got to it and there's nothing more to it, it's doubly pointless. The game is being worked on and the details are being fleshed out, but I'd say we're still a solid 6+ months away from anything even remotely resembling an endgame scene.
#14 Nov 17 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Now this reminds me of my first year playing FFXI in 2003/4 and waiting and trying to get party for my war. Back then war was thought to be a sub job only soloing wasn't possible at all had to wait or try an form parties (JP Onry was the bane of my existence) or sit on your *** and fish like I did lol. Still I logged in and did it heck I wish my war back then could even kill a ep without dieing lol..
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#15 Nov 17 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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i think you are looking at this the wrong way...there are a few reasons why no one else is in that rank range...people are quitting and there is no real reason to grind to 50 asap atm...there is nothing to do at 50. that will change obviously when se adds content, but currently it is pointless.

and on figaro, most people still playing have a job between 30-40...and the current bulk of players on the curve are probably 35-40.

you should really just stop worrying about getting that one class to 50 for the time being and rank something else that will help the class you want to play...level some classes to 20 and get the rank 30 gm traits.

all se did to soloing was make mobs equivalent to your level soloable...unlike in xi where theyd still rape you...the effect on party grinding is you fight mobs that are 15-20 ranks above you instead of 5 to get 500sp a kill in that same 90s.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 11:16am by stripesonfire
#16 Nov 17 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
For some time i have now been in the 40s.


Based on this I would say that you aren't a casual player at all, unless you are a major insomniac.

#17 Nov 17 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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stripesonfire wrote:
and on figaro, most people still playing have a job between 30-40...and the current bulk of players on the curve are probably 35-40.


Where on Figaro are all the rank 20 players is what I want to know. I'm having a **** of a time progressing much beyond that.
#18 Nov 17 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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M0RZA wrote:
Quote:
For some time i have now been in the 40s.


Based on this I would say that you aren't a casual player at all, unless you are a major insomniac.



Casual for one is not the same as casual for another. I consider myself casual. Some nights I play for an hour or two. Weekends I play off and on in 30-60 minute stints. Sometimes I just sit down and binge. Most of my time has been spent on DoH classes and it shows. If I were to have put all of that time into one combat class, I'd probably be in the late 30s/early 40s by now as well.
#19 Nov 17 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
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3-4 hours a day is anything BUT casual, it's a part time job. That said, as a REAL casual player(1-2 hours every other day or so), I would say working as intended. Solo play could use some love and quests should pay some exp &/or extra SP(for class specific quests), but, it's pretty cut and dry. I bang out 6 or so leve quests in under a few hours every other day. I am happy with my progression.

There is NO END GAME so why the rush?

Want better exp/sp? Team up.
#20 Nov 17 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Casual for one is not the same as casual for another. I consider myself casual. Some nights I play for an hour or two. Weekends I play off and on in 30-60 minute stints. Sometimes I just sit down and binge. Most of my time has been spent on DoH classes and it shows. If I were to have put all of that time into one combat class, I'd probably be in the late 30s/early 40s by now as well.


You have a point there i'll admit. I guess when we start talking about playing just one class though, that brings back the argument that SE is encouraging us to play multiple classes.

I'd be interested to know the OP's physical level if this is the case.
#21 Nov 17 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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You know, I find the whole idea of the rank system rather amusing. When I first started playing the game I was made aware of this video which no doubt everyone here has already seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abE09-tqhoM

This, to me, suggested that the amount of experience needed per level (and per rank) would be identical, but that the fatigue system itself would prevent you from speeding through levels and thus remove the need for these XP curves. In fact, the video itself says that "Other MMO's use a levelling curve" when it's obvious that FFXIV does also!

It's possible that the makers of the video had no idea what they were talking about, but to be honest very few people have actually mentioned issues with XP gain, and some have even suggested that this 'fatigue' system doesn't exist or has an extremely high threshold.

Whatever the truth of it, my physical level hasn't gone up much in a while despite the enemies I've slain and the crafts I've done, nor has my rank level increased much either. I don't think the system is working entirely as the video depicts.
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#22 Nov 17 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Other MMOs have a steeper leveling curve. However, the curve isn't the only thing slowing down aspiring solo artists in FFXIV as there is also the fact that SP gain goes down dramatically as you progress in ranks.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 12:54pm by Omena
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#23 Nov 17 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
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my self i am a some what casual player when im working but since i had time off i got into alot of JP parties, fights lasting less than a minute for 500 SP is the only reason i ranked to such a level.

Dont get me wrong, im not rushing it or anything its just i enjoy my class and thats why i want to level more with it.

The curve is fine, its the SP gain thats the issue, this game just shows there is no room for casual/solo players. I liked the FF11 leveling but god it was frustrating to wait and if you got a PT if it sucked. I want to be able to solo and be rewarded for it not solo for like 3 hours and get **** all SP for the work.

The fatigue system is so broken it may aswell be removed. I know people who hit fatigue in less than 24 hours of it resetting, they then grinded and grinded and grinded getting rank after rank after rank and still got well over 300 SP a kill.
#24 Nov 17 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
Yesterday i Got the best Sp pt in my game life so far. 65k sp in 6 hours of intense killing. Now who the **** can spend 6h for less than that and call it a casual friendly game?
#25 Nov 17 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
Yesterday i Got the best Sp pt in my game life so far. 65k sp in 6 hours of intense killing. Now who the **** can spend 6h for less than that and call it a casual friendly game?


se has stated that it is more casual friendly in that if you only have 1-2 hrs a night you can log on do a few battle and crafting leves get some sp and log.

casual in the sense that there are things to do that don't require huge amounts of time.

grinding is grinding and will never change...people with more time will obviously rank faster.
#26 Nov 17 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Other MMOs have a steeper leveling curve. However, the curve isn't the only thing slowing down aspiring solo artists in FFXIV as there is also the fact that SP gain goes down dramatically as you progress in ranks.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 12:54pm by Omena


The SP gain is just far too random actually. I have a LS mate that soloed till rank25 Gla, from what I know, he gets 0 sp to 300+ if lucky. Kinda same as what I'm getting at rank 1-19 Mar.

Soloing its near impossible to hit 500sp per mob, I don;t expect that. But I don;t understand is why they make the gain so random.
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#27 Nov 17 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Well the big elephant in the room is this...

Most of the people who are rank 50 on most servers right now take and took advantage of the SP bug. I know many on my server do it and have done it. This isn't about that though.

In FFXI you could solo and you could solo effectively. As a BLU, BLM, BST, RDM, and a few other jobs you could solo @ about 10k per hour. Now that wasn't the OMGWTFBBQ of 20k+ once level sync came out but it was still an option. Most jobs didn't have the ability to solo that effectively but the opportunity still existed. In my opinion 3 things in this game are not allowing for solo play.

1. random SP! **** this and **** the guy at SE who said this was a good idea
2. lack of game ballance between EP and EM/T mobs
3. The stupid healing glitch

I'm not saying that solo play should be producing 10k+ an hour but depending on the job and mob solo play should be able to net 6-8k and that atm is just not happening. At least in FXI when i killed a mob I knew exactly how much XP i got. In this game not so much.

TL;DR Random SP is killing solo play in this game they need to get the **** rid of it!!!
#28 Nov 17 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I consider FFXIV like any other online MMO in that it is a journey, not a destination. I play every day for hours at a time and I don't see the concern. I'm RNK 24 Gladiator but I craft as well. Adjustments should and I believe will be made to the game to accommodate those at or near Rank 50.

I DO NOT believe that those high ranked players used the "BUG"
#29 Nov 17 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
What's at the cap?

That's the question. What is it that people think is going to be there for them when they arrive? What's the goal? Why the rush?

The (Ul'dah) plot become particularly intriguing by 34. Yes, that's a long ******* grind. Yes, the missions themselves are obnoxious, anima-draining fetch quests. Yes, my NPC fellow is a *****.

But I want to see Ifrit.
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#30 Nov 17 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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People aren't hacking, people are just logging a disgustingly sad amount of playtime.

12k SP / hour happens...but it's the exception, NOT the norm. Even with a great, well oiled SP machine of a LS party, 10k SP / hour is not a guarantee (and NO ONE is putting up those kinds of numbers solo or from Rank 1-25).

Anyone who tells you they average 12k SP - 15k SP / hour is lying. What doesn't lie though are the numbers...

TOTAL SP REQUIRED FROM RANK 1 TO RANK 50: 1,840,450

NUMBER OF DAYS SINCE NA STANDARD EDITION RETAIL RELEASE: 48

AVERAGE SP REQUIRED PER DAY TO BE @ RANK 50: 38,343

I'll be generous and say that you can average 8k SP / hour from Rank 1-50. You might be getting more than that Rank 25+, but you sure aren't putting up that kind of SP / hour solo or in small groups from Rank 1-25.

So that means you would have to grind SP for roughly 5 hours / day, very efficiently, every single day since release to be @ Rank 50 today. This is @ a bare minimum. Factor in the downtime associated with inventory management, repairs, trips to town (for NPC repair or market wards), wipes, random d/c's, etc., and you'll see the disturbing kind of playtime these Rank 50's are logging.

There's something to be said for Communist leadership that sets a hard limit on the amount time the Proletariat can play video games. It may not ensure that you lead a productive existence and somehow contribute to society at large, but it @ least guarantees that you aren't wasting your entire life on a video game.
#31 Nov 17 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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thejones wrote:
People aren't hacking, people are just logging a disgustingly sad amount of playtime.

12k SP / hour happens...but it's the exception, NOT the norm. Even with a great, well oiled SP machine of a LS party, 10k SP / hour is not a guarantee (and NO ONE is putting up those kinds of numbers solo or from Rank 1-25).

Anyone who tells you they average 12k SP - 15k SP / hour is lying. What doesn't lie though are the numbers...

TOTAL SP REQUIRED FROM RANK 1 TO RANK 50: 1,840,450

NUMBER OF DAYS SINCE NA STANDARD EDITION RETAIL RELEASE: 48

AVERAGE SP REQUIRED PER DAY TO BE @ RANK 50: 38,343

I'll be generous and say that you can average 8k SP / hour from Rank 1-50. You might be getting more than that Rank 25+, but you sure aren't putting up that kind of SP / hour solo or in small groups from Rank 1-25.

So that means you would have to grind SP for roughly 5 hours / day, very efficiently, every single day since release to be @ Rank 50 today. This is @ a bare minimum. Factor in the downtime associated with inventory management, repairs, trips to town (for NPC repair or market wards), wipes, random d/c's, etc., and you'll see the disturbing kind of playtime these Rank 50's are logging.

There's something to be said for Communist leadership that sets a hard limit on the amount time the Proletariat can play video games. It may not ensure that you lead a productive existence and somehow contribute to society at large, but it @ least guarantees that you aren't wasting your entire life on a video game.

eh 10k/hr+ is pretty standard on raptors.

before that it definitely varies.
#32 Nov 17 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Default
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What worries me most about the OP is that in less than 2 months, he/she has managed to get "close" to the cap. Close enough to worry about the SP requirement from 48 to 50.

This indicates a potential lack of lifetime of this game.

I wait for the day when an MMO is released where it actaully takes more than 3 months to cap. For me, the journey is as much of a reason to play as endgame. The ability to reach the end so quickly takes away a major reason for playing.

I have been extremely casual to date and am very worried by this. What if I wanted to play a little more?
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#33 Nov 17 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:
What worries me most about the OP is that in less than 2 months, he/she has managed to get "close" to the cap. Close enough to worry about the SP requirement from 48 to 50.

This indicates a potential lack of lifetime of this game.

I wait for the day when an MMO is released where it actaully takes more than 3 months to cap. For me, the journey is as much of a reason to play as endgame. The ability to reach the end so quickly takes away a major reason for playing.

I have been extremely casual to date and am very worried by this. What if I wanted to play a little more?

50 won't be the permanent rank/level cap...se will most likely raise it in increments.
#34 Nov 17 2010 at 8:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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thejones wrote:
People aren't hacking, people are just logging a disgustingly sad amount of playtime.

12k SP / hour happens...but it's the exception, NOT the norm. Even with a great, well oiled SP machine of a LS party, 10k SP / hour is not a guarantee (and NO ONE is putting up those kinds of numbers solo or from Rank 1-25).

Anyone who tells you they average 12k SP - 15k SP / hour is lying. What doesn't lie though are the numbers...

TOTAL SP REQUIRED FROM RANK 1 TO RANK 50: 1,840,450

NUMBER OF DAYS SINCE NA STANDARD EDITION RETAIL RELEASE: 48

AVERAGE SP REQUIRED PER DAY TO BE @ RANK 50: 38,343

I'll be generous and say that you can average 8k SP / hour from Rank 1-50. You might be getting more than that Rank 25+, but you sure aren't putting up that kind of SP / hour solo or in small groups from Rank 1-25.

So that means you would have to grind SP for roughly 5 hours / day, very efficiently, every single day since release to be @ Rank 50 today. This is @ a bare minimum. Factor in the downtime associated with inventory management, repairs, trips to town (for NPC repair or market wards), wipes, random d/c's, etc., and you'll see the disturbing kind of playtime these Rank 50's are logging.

There's something to be said for Communist leadership that sets a hard limit on the amount time the Proletariat can play video games. It may not ensure that you lead a productive existence and somehow contribute to society at large, but it @ least guarantees that you aren't wasting your entire life on a video game.


First off, many if not most of the 50's were using the SP exploit. It may not be hacking, but it is also not logging "disgustingly sad amounts of gametime".

Second, you call 5 hours a day "disturbing", I call it enjoying a hobby. I could just as easily spend 5 hours a day watching t.v. or hanging out at the local bar. And even 5 hours a day is still considered casual, unless you're completely new to the mmo genre. Why don't you tell us what you do all day? I bet we can find something there much more "disturbing" than playing video games for 5 hours.

And the whole Communist thing makes me laugh. Bet you're one of those people screaming "Yes, this will teach the infidels!" when Korea or China or some other dictatorial government body decides you can only play as long as they think you should be allowed to just because some moron forgot to eat, sleep, or take a dump while playing and died.

Maybe wherever you're at, this is normal. But noone tells me when, where, or how long I will play any game or take part in any other form of entertainment. A company making a game I want to play wants to make arbitrary rules about how long I can play their game, I will leave and give my money to a company that WANTS me to play their game.
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#35 Nov 17 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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What exactly is the rush though? There is no endgame and when it is put in place there will still be next to no one to do it with anyway.
#36 Nov 17 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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DaemonFaust wrote:
What exactly is the rush though? There is no endgame and when it is put in place there will still be next to no one to do it with anyway.


It's not so much that people want to "rush" to 50, as it is the fact there's nothing else to focus on. Looking forward to the next 2 minute cinematic doesn't hold for long.

The only thing in the game we can look at to see any sort of "progression" or "accomplishment" is the SP/XP bar.



Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:15pm by Zorvan
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#37 Nov 17 2010 at 9:15 PM Rating: Default
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DaemonFaust wrote:
What exactly is the rush though? There is no endgame and when it is put in place there will still be next to no one to do it with anyway.


Im going to hazard a guess that it is all about gaining "respect" and "kudos" from other players. For some people, recognition by their peers can give them a real "hit". Some of us get this in our real lives, others get it playing games like this in which there is significant social interaction.

Personally, I enjoy levelling and exploring more than endgame so for me, getting to the level max is not so much of an achievement as the end of the fun part to a certain extent. Maybe FFXIV endgame will be different in time.
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#38 Nov 17 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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In theory, its all that "horizontal progression" we're supposed to get. we're supposed to get several classes to cap to have access to their abilities. And I for one know that I'd like to have them at or near enough cap by the time the cap's raised and real content shows up.
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#39 Nov 17 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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169 posts
wallace87 wrote:
SE has claimed that this game is "friendly to casual and solo players"

However that stops at aroun Rank 20.

For some time i have now been in the 40s. However now that i am back to work (after a week off) i cant get off my current Rank. Literally the only people on my server that are 40+ are japanese players who play in my morning (i am from UK) so by the time i get home from work they are offline and sleeping or what not. Which leaves about 3-4 people within my rank range that maybe online, now you can expect these to be on all the time, infact if just one isnt on it can cause a problem, due to lack of tank or healer etc.

Now the SP needed to get from 40-50 is VERY roughly around 500,000 maybe? (as i say very rough, i know its 200,000 from 48 to 50)

So, why dont i solo? Well in solo i get on average 0-70 SP a kill, plus the time it takes to kill these monsters is quiet some duration (normally 1-2 minutes maybe)

Maths lesson -

Average the SP at 35
and the fighting time to 90 seconds

500,000 / 35 = 14286 is the number of monsters i need to kill!
14286 x 90 = 1285715 is the number of seconds i need to kill these!
1285715 / 60 = 21429 is the number of minutes
21429 / 60 = 357.14 hours THAT IS OVER TWO WEEKS!

Now remember that isnt two weeks inc sleep work etc thats two weeks of play time!

If you play 3 hours everyday then your looking at 119 days!

Now even if you double that SP gain your still looking at just under 60 days!

Now maybe you dont play one day! or you go away for a few days etc that is still insane!

I have seen people do 40-50 in DAYS in a party, being a part of parties inc the japanese ones i went from 37-42 in like 2-3 days.

Now i enjoy PT play but sometimes i want to solo now OK this isnt stopping me but i dont want solo play to be me banging my head against a wall for 60 days!


---------------------- This is all rough maths since im not making a paper for a prof and all based on my server.



The game hasn't even be live for 2 months yet and your already complaining about not being cap Rank?

I will give you some advice as a veteran MMORPG gamer who has been around these issues since the early 90's. Don't power level to cap level as fast as humanly possible when a game is first released then try and pull the casual playing card but have already stated you had a week off in which you made it into your 40's. That point right there should be enough for you to understand the game is casual based, the fact you are in your 40's already, also take into consideration that you had time off work where you put more hours in then you normally would of.

My point if you haven't got it by now is, Dev's focus on the casual leveling curve and tend to populate end game content later. The people who are first there are always the ones left hanging around with almost nothing to do until they add it in with content patches. They make sure the game is all nice and shiny during the entire casual experience.

Now let me point out the obvious. In the up and coming patches, they are tweaking SP gain and increasing more Leve's and Quests. Now if you haven't noticed yet, I get a large chunk of SP from Leve's, dunno why but even if I don't invoke my Guardian, I still get good chunks of SP gain during the period of the Leve. I assume Leve's are coded to award large amounts of SP during them. More Leve's to do = more burst increases in SP gain. More consistant SP gains from random grinding = faster leveling curve.

So fear not my casual playing friend, they will be catering to you also.

Edited, Nov 17th 2010 10:36pm by Taemek
#40 Nov 17 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Zorvan wrote:
thejones wrote:
People aren't hacking, people are just logging a disgustingly sad amount of playtime.

12k SP / hour happens...but it's the exception, NOT the norm. Even with a great, well oiled SP machine of a LS party, 10k SP / hour is not a guarantee (and NO ONE is putting up those kinds of numbers solo or from Rank 1-25).

Anyone who tells you they average 12k SP - 15k SP / hour is lying. What doesn't lie though are the numbers...

TOTAL SP REQUIRED FROM RANK 1 TO RANK 50: 1,840,450

NUMBER OF DAYS SINCE NA STANDARD EDITION RETAIL RELEASE: 48

AVERAGE SP REQUIRED PER DAY TO BE @ RANK 50: 38,343

I'll be generous and say that you can average 8k SP / hour from Rank 1-50. You might be getting more than that Rank 25+, but you sure aren't putting up that kind of SP / hour solo or in small groups from Rank 1-25.

So that means you would have to grind SP for roughly 5 hours / day, very efficiently, every single day since release to be @ Rank 50 today. This is @ a bare minimum. Factor in the downtime associated with inventory management, repairs, trips to town (for NPC repair or market wards), wipes, random d/c's, etc., and you'll see the disturbing kind of playtime these Rank 50's are logging.

There's something to be said for Communist leadership that sets a hard limit on the amount time the Proletariat can play video games. It may not ensure that you lead a productive existence and somehow contribute to society at large, but it @ least guarantees that you aren't wasting your entire life on a video game.


First off, many if not most of the 50's were using the SP exploit. It may not be hacking, but it is also not logging "disgustingly sad amounts of gametime".

Second, you call 5 hours a day "disturbing", I call it enjoying a hobby. I could just as easily spend 5 hours a day watching t.v. or hanging out at the local bar. And even 5 hours a day is still considered casual, unless you're completely new to the mmo genre. Why don't you tell us what you do all day? I bet we can find something there much more "disturbing" than playing video games for 5 hours.

And the whole Communist thing makes me laugh. Bet you're one of those people screaming "Yes, this will teach the infidels!" when Korea or China or some other dictatorial government body decides you can only play as long as they think you should be allowed to just because some moron forgot to eat, sleep, or take a dump while playing and died.

Maybe wherever you're at, this is normal. But noone tells me when, where, or how long I will play any game or take part in any other form of entertainment. A company making a game I want to play wants to make arbitrary rules about how long I can play their game, I will leave and give my money to a company that WANTS me to play their game.


I find it difficult to log in for more than 2 hours a day, mostly due to the hours I put in at my job and the fact that I have a fiance, friends, and family that I interact with at least once a day. From my point of view you really do put in an excessive amount of time at 5 hrs a day, mostly because it indicates a deficiency elsewhere in your life.

But really, random SP gain suck no matter.
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#41 Nov 17 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm going to come to the defence of the hardcore here even though I am very casual (by most peoples definition).

There are 24 hours in a day.

Let's assume you spend 6 sleeping, 8 working, 2 eating and on personal hygiene. That leaves 8 for hobbies. If you spent 2 hours with friends, that still leaves 6 hours to play the game each day.

This assumes that you have a job or spend 8 hours per day studying.

Now, for me, most of the remaining 6 hours per day are spent with my wife and kids. I am left with maybe 2 hours per day to play the game. But for people younger than me, or single people 5 -6 hours per day playing would not be out of the ordinary. ****, if i were 10 years younger and didnt have family commitmetns, I would play for 4 hours per day.

The problem though comes when the people playing for 6 hours per day start complaining that the game is too hard to level up to the cap when they have only been playing 2 months. Playing 6 hours per day and taking 2 months to cap is not a steep enough curve, not too steep a curve.

The hardcore will reach cap where some casuals never will. But if the hardcore can cap in under 2 months, there is a design flaw with the game.
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#42 Nov 17 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What exactly is the rush though? There is no endgame and when it is put in place there will still be next to no one to do it with anyway.


Personally I could only tell you what my rush would be if I were actually playing the game. As it is, I don't find the game fun. However, if ranking up were faster, it would be more fun for me, and here's why:

I would get to access what little content there is more quickly, like leves and class quests. That'd be the main incentive.

I'd get to access new abilities and spells more quickly, allowing me to play with my character in a greater variety of ways.

I'd gain access to fighting a variety of monsters more quickly, and grow less bored of fighting the same ones consecutively.

To me, it has nothing to do with wanting to reach the cap in and of itself, particularly if there's nothing at the cap. It has everything to do with taking what little there is to the gameplay and not stretching it quite so thin. Currently the gameplay itself bores me... all bugs and lack of content aside. But it would be a lot less boring if the things that injected some variety into the gameplay didn't come sooooo slowly.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 Nov 17 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:


I find it difficult to log in for more than 2 hours a day, mostly due to the hours I put in at my job and the fact that I have a fiance, friends, and family that I interact with at least once a day. From my point of view you really do put in an excessive amount of time at 5 hrs a day, mostly because it indicates a deficiency elsewhere in your life.


Okay, see this is where most of the stereotype ******** in both real life and in gaming comes from. Rather than just think to yourself that "Hey, everyone enjoys different things than I do", you'd rather think that someone not the same as you has a "deficiency" in their life.

Everyone seems to think they're the "normal" one, and anyone not like them is "abnormal" and obviously has something "wrong" with them.

I work, my bills are paid in full every month, I have an ex-wife and a kid to support, I have friends to do things with occasionally when the mood strikes us and we all have time (I don't hang out with them every day because they do have their own lives y'know), and I talk to at least one family member every day ( usually my brother).

So now that you have my life story to go with yours, explain why mine is deficient? Because I'd rather play a game in my free time than "hang out"?




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#44 Nov 17 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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518 posts
thejones wrote:
People aren't hacking, people are just logging a disgustingly sad amount of playtime.

12k SP / hour happens...but it's the exception, NOT the norm. Even with a great, well oiled SP machine of a LS party, 10k SP / hour is not a guarantee (and NO ONE is putting up those kinds of numbers solo or from Rank 1-25).

Anyone who tells you they average 12k SP - 15k SP / hour is lying. What doesn't lie though are the numbers...

TOTAL SP REQUIRED FROM RANK 1 TO RANK 50: 1,840,450

NUMBER OF DAYS SINCE NA STANDARD EDITION RETAIL RELEASE: 48

AVERAGE SP REQUIRED PER DAY TO BE @ RANK 50: 38,343

I'll be generous and say that you can average 8k SP / hour from Rank 1-50. You might be getting more than that Rank 25+, but you sure aren't putting up that kind of SP / hour solo or in small groups from Rank 1-25.

So that means you would have to grind SP for roughly 5 hours / day, very efficiently, every single day since release to be @ Rank 50 today. This is @ a bare minimum. Factor in the downtime associated with inventory management, repairs, trips to town (for NPC repair or market wards), wipes, random d/c's, etc., and you'll see the disturbing kind of playtime these Rank 50's are logging.


Except that some of those rank 50 ppl also have a rank 30+ craft with subs. According to your math there are not enough hours in the day to achieve that. If you show me a person with 1 rank 50 job and no others above 20 I'll show you a person who plays the game alot. Show me a person with a 50 job and a 30+ craft and some more 20+ jobs and i'll show you someone who used the SP trick to rank up.

There are entire linkshells on iStory that do this. Group up with 15 ppl SP and more than half of them are afk while the others hit 500 SP per mob. That's why fatigue has done nothing to slow ppl down in this game. Think about 9th threshold you are sill pulling 450 SP, 10th 400, 11th 350 12th 300. You almost need to hit the 14th threshold before it becomes advantages to do something else.

Most hardcore people I see in this game and that are in my LS's are around rank 40ish. They have some low 20's crafts and maybe a 20 sub or two. But a large size of the current r50 DoW group is using the SP trick, plain and simple. It's not time.
#45 Nov 18 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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The skill point curve is far, far too steep. We all know that the level cap will eventually be raised to at least 75, but my guess is they will go to 99, and by that rank, with the current sp curve, it will take something like a million (maybe more) to get from 98 to 99. I don't think they can keep the curve as high as it is forever. It should level out around rank 30, maybe increasing 1-2k per rank. I cannot even begin to imagine the task crafters , or even worse (though not in terms of money required) disciples of the land, will have to face if this system is not changed.
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#46 Nov 18 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
How does "Hardcore" = "Having time and the mental fortitude to grind mobs till you lvl cap" ?
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#47 Nov 18 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Default
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redfoxxredfoxx wrote:
The skill point curve is far, far too steep. We all know that the level cap will eventually be raised to at least 75, but my guess is they will go to 99, and by that rank, with the current sp curve, it will take something like a million (maybe more) to get from 98 to 99. I don't think they can keep the curve as high as it is forever. It should level out around rank 30, maybe increasing 1-2k per rank. I cannot even begin to imagine the task crafters , or even worse (though not in terms of money required) disciples of the land, will have to face if this system is not changed.


Since when do they release cap raises without content to go with it that increases in level allowing you to gain xp faster to keep the same trend?
#48 Nov 18 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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216 posts
SE has repeatedly stated that they want the game to be able to be played solo, and want it to be enjoyable solo. While the game can be played solo, your character cannot progress at a reasonable rate when soloing beyond rank20. If you cannot progress, you can't fight new kinds of monsters or make your character stronger, which is a large part of where MMO's derive their enjoyment from.

So SE needs to give some attention to the solo issue. They seem oblivious to it though, with them going so far as to state that there isn't enough of a draw to party up right now. I fail to see how that can possibly be the case when partying up is really the only decent way to advance your character beyond 20.
thejones wrote:
So that means you would have to grind SP for roughly 5 hours / day, very efficiently, every single day since release to be @ Rank 50 today. This is @ a bare minimum. Factor in the downtime associated with inventory management, repairs, trips to town (for NPC repair or market wards), wipes, random d/c's, etc., and you'll see the disturbing kind of playtime these Rank 50's are logging.
One important thing that wasn't factored into the equation was surplus.

If someone is efficiently grinding for 5 hours/day, they're definitely going to hit surplus before it resets. So for them to get the amount of SP required to hit 50, they'll likely be losing a a sizable chunk of SP by plowing through the surplus rather than waiting it out. That's assuming they're gaining enough SP per fight to be affected by surplus though (which I would suspect they are, if they're earning that much SP/hour).
#49 Nov 18 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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theweenie wrote:
SE has repeatedly stated that they want the game to be able to be played solo, and want it to be enjoyable solo. While the game can be played solo, your character cannot progress at a reasonable rate when soloing beyond rank20. If you cannot progress, you can't fight new kinds of monsters or make your character stronger, which is a large part of where MMO's derive their enjoyment from.

So SE needs to give some attention to the solo issue. They seem oblivious to it though, with them going so far as to state that there isn't enough of a draw to party up right now. I fail to see how that can possibly be the case when partying up is really the only decent way to advance your character beyond 20.


I agree with this. They can't really go around saying that solo play is a viable option if progress grinds to a halt at a relatively low rank due to the way the game's reward system is tuned. If players in groups can earn 4-10 times the SP/kill than a solo player, all they're doing is throwing solo players a bone by tuning mobs so that they can be killed solo. I enjoy a mix of solo and group play (with the right people), but if there's a point where I decide I'm better off waiting around a populated area looking for a group instead of playing and enjoying the game, it's broken. I enjoy fighting mobs a fair bit above my rank for the challenge factor but the rewards don't keep pace with the risk. If I'm fighting something 5 ranks above me as a solo player for 50-100 SP, what is it that your average 15 person party is doing in their zerg group that entitles them to 200-500 SP/fight? Fighting mobs 20+ ranks higher instead of 5?

I'm not in any way looking for a solo bullet to the cap, but from what I've seen so far (and I still don't even have a combat class to 20 yet), there's an awfully large distinction between rapid progression while solo and trivial progression while solo. XIV pushes the trivial side, and I'd like to see that addressed.
#50 Nov 18 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
I enjoy fighting mobs a fair bit above my rank for the challenge factor but the rewards don't keep pace with the risk. If I'm fighting something 5 ranks above me as a solo player for 50-100 SP


^ +1 this. My DoW is mainly for farming shards and mats. Farming wind shards in Skull Valley I was getting 50-100 SP for blue dodos and hatchlings. The next day I decided to try farming yellow/orange dodos and puks around Bloodshore after some leves...and was getting 50-100 SP.
#51 Nov 19 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Eh, I tend to agree that playing 5 hours every day represents a deficiency somewhere in your life. Maybe there are some exceptions, but they're probably not for those with families and full-time jobs.

Five hours every day is a bit extreme for anyone, if for no other reason than it just isn't healthy. It's a long time to be unproductive, unsociable, and sedentary. 35 hours a week is practically a second full time job of that crap.

And that may be ok for some people, but it shouldn't be tuned so that that goal is difficult even when that kind of playtime is the norm.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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