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#52 Nov 19 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
It seems there is a misconception about what happened; the problem was not
- too little gil offered or
- too rare materials required or
- too little time invested in shouting/saying/telling.

The problem was simply:
- no appropriate crafter around.

Btw, I had those silver nuggets for the rings in my bazaar.


Most definitely too little gil offered. Gil falls from the sky.

I doubt there were no appropriate crafters around -- you can't see all of a person's jobs. *edit* Unless you look him up on the Lodestone... >_>

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 5:05pm by BaseVilliN
#53 Nov 19 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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BaseVilliN wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
It seems there is a misconception about what happened; the problem was not
- too little gil offered or
- too rare materials required or
- too little time invested in shouting/saying/telling.

The problem was simply:
- no appropriate crafter around.

Btw, I had those silver nuggets for the rings in my bazaar.


Most definitely too little gil offered. Gil falls from the sky.

I doubt there were no appropriate crafters around -- you can't see all of a person's jobs. *edit* Unless you look him up on the Lodestone... >_>

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 5:05pm by BaseVilliN


^ This. Just today I saw someone shouting to fix a rank 34+ weapon. When I checked her she only had 1k to offer for fix. I told her there was no way anyone would fix it for just 1k, she said they will if she supplied the mat (1 cedar branch).

"It is not the mat that matters, but you are paying for their skill to fix it" She just laughed.

No respect for crafters, I tell ya :/
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#54 Nov 19 2010 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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I feel your repair pain OP. It's one of the reasons I'm attempting to lvl everything - that and I'm clinically insane. (^_^)/

I will repair things for people if I'm not deeply involved in anything at the moment tho. And to be perfectly honest I'm not usually looking to make a killing on it and would do it for free. I gather all of my own materials so it's not like I had to fork out a ton of cash for them or the crystals to synth them for that matter. I get them easily enough if I need them. Sadly due to the multi-discipline tact I've taken it's going to be a while before I can really handle the higher lvl gear but I'm sort of lvl'n my combat classes inline with the crafts (more or less) but I'm not sure for how much longer I can do that. I want to be 100% self-sufficient or as close to it as possible. That's good for me and better for my friends and future LS mates. I'll be useful at least right? haha.

But I know that I now chose weapons based in part on whether I can repair them or not. Or if I'm close to being able to. Most of the heavy armor wears well and I'm not too concerned with those items at present. But weapons? Ouch. I'm not sure if anyone has done any research on it but I've a theory that you get less SP with heavily damaged weapons - and not due to missing, but even with hits you get less SP procs. Just a theory but it has felt like that to me!
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#55 Nov 19 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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mcbizzle wrote:
It's one of the reasons I'm attempting to lvl everything - that and I'm clinically insane. (^_^)/
...
I gather all of my own materials...
...
Sadly due to the multi-discipline tact I've taken it's going to be a while before I can really handle the higher lvl gear...
I want to be 100% self-sufficient or as close to it as possible. That's good for me and better for my friends and future LS mates. I'll be useful at least right? haha.


Hellz yeah... I'm right with you on those sentiments.

MAD CRAFTERS UNITE!! We control all your CRAFT!!
#56 Nov 19 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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huhwhat wrote:
Even leveling a craft to 5 is complet bullsh*t. It should not even be required that you should have to level a craft to play the game.


It's not required, but it sure will make it a lot easier for you. It's your path to pick.
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#57 Nov 19 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh I am sorry Olorinus the Vile so you take part of my comment and go all off saying a bunch of crap, saying that this is that cause its not fun for me blah blah blah. If you would have read the my post I said its complet ******** that its REQUIRED. And yes in this game its basically required to craft to advance in the game. The rate at which items break is completly ******* I hear people saying that they have to carry multiple of the same weapons/gear just to go and level for a couple of hours, or just go with broke gear. I guess I am just wrong in thinking that the game is ********* and ****** up for focusing on just crafing.

Yes its my path to choose but why should I be limited on my path because I choose not to do something? Oh thats right because I chose to go in a different direction than the game is more focused twords.
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#58 Nov 19 2010 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
why should I be limited on my path because I choose not to do something?


gotta let this sink in a bit...

Edit: ok, I see... the question mark is in the wrong place.

Quote:
why should I be limited on my path? because I choose not to do something


thats better :D

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 10:52pm by taliph
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#59 Nov 20 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Default
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LyleVertigo wrote:
BaseVilliN wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
It seems there is a misconception about what happened; the problem was not
- too little gil offered or
- too rare materials required or
- too little time invested in shouting/saying/telling.

The problem was simply:
- no appropriate crafter around.

Btw, I had those silver nuggets for the rings in my bazaar.


Most definitely too little gil offered. Gil falls from the sky.

I doubt there were no appropriate crafters around -- you can't see all of a person's jobs. *edit* Unless you look him up on the Lodestone... >_>

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 5:05pm by BaseVilliN


^ This. Just today I saw someone shouting to fix a rank 34+ weapon. When I checked her she only had 1k to offer for fix. I told her there was no way anyone would fix it for just 1k, she said they will if she supplied the mat (1 cedar branch).

"It is not the mat that matters, but you are paying for their skill to fix it" She just laughed.

No respect for crafters, I tell ya :/


Couldn't agree more. Some ppl playing a MMO like a console game and treating other players like NPCs.

Crafters are players too, they have their own business to busy with.

If you want someone dropping whats on hand and come to repair your stuff, you better offer something attractive.
#60 Nov 20 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Good
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huhwhat wrote:
Yes its my path to choose but why should I be limited on my path because I choose not to do something? Oh thats right because I chose to go in a different direction than the game is more focused twords.


Heyaz,

Actually, no. That is the way it always is. If you choose to focus on melee, and put points in STR VIT and DEX, then your spells will be limited. Choose to go the other route, your melee damage will suck. Choose to craft, and you aren't spending that time out killing mobs, choose to kill mobs and you aren't spending that time leveling your craft skills.

Any choice has the repercussion that you did not make the other choice.

Relax, take a breather, you said in the beginning "It finally happened", meaning you were okay up until now, right?
Honestly, some of the advice that has been given was good no matter what the specifics of your situation...

So now you are faced with another choice:
Listen to the advice, and gain the benefits of other players' experience and thoughts, and perhaps find that some of that advice is valid and works for your situation...
OR
Don't listen to the advice and apparently, get all bent out of shape and hostile towards people who took the time (that they could have been playing or giving someone else advice that might listen to them) to offer you their thoughts (mostly with good intent)...

But remember that what you choose means you will have to deal with the repercussions of NOT making the other choice.

Sincerly,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan
#61 Nov 20 2010 at 2:23 AM Rating: Default
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I've never leveled crafting seriously in a game before, because I felt it offered too little benefit and wasn't worth my time.

Because of the crafting system in FFXIV as well as the inherent benefits and way it supplements the "multiclass" system the game utilizes I have taken up more than two crafts and currently have armorer at 27 along with blacksmith.

If this repair system wasn't in place, I don't think I would've bothered. I think what people need to understand is that this isn't like every MMO. It has features specifically implemented to make people socialize more frequently and features integrated into gameplay that require you to weigh up the benefits of leveling one class, or many classes.

I love the way it is and I like that it punishes people who specialize. Good on Square Enix for making it that way.

If the OP had been like everyone else and taken advantage of how SE have made the game to be played by diversifying, he could have leveled another job while he waited for his gear to be repaired.
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#62 Nov 20 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Good
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I don't level craft because I want to repair, I want to make stuff. I never carry multiple weapons/tools unless it's for different class, I have a list of crafter acquaintances that repair stuff for me. I just need to do a /tell whenever I'm in town and I see them passing by. To be honest, I don't really see any difference between damaged gear and not, my success rate in synthesis action remain pretty much the same. Same deal for weapon, I just repair them when I remember to, and because I like them shiny and that's it.
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#63 Nov 20 2010 at 5:07 AM Rating: Good
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I'm of the opinion that if someone has the mats and they come to you to have something made or repaired, I think it's wrong to ask for money or expect it.

There were a lot of times when I spent all my money to get the mats for something, leaving me broke and not able to pay anything extra.

So I never charge when someone asks me make something for them, and it's not even guaranteed that the **** synth will be successful.

If I have a lot of a material and it's the one someone needs to repair something in their bazar I don't care what they offer, I'll repair it if I can.

#64 Nov 20 2010 at 6:24 AM Rating: Good
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It's never just about the money/reward for me, but more of a mutual respect that isn't always there. I don't have a set price that's like "5k+ or gtfo" or anything like that. Money isn't all that important, and for that same reason those joke rewards like 1g & such are even more of a slap in the face.

Another thing about non-responsive crafters. We know quite a few seem to just be playing the ignore game and aren't helpful. Other times though, maybe someone just sat down with a fresh support buff and is doing some serious grinding. Demanding them to jump up from what they're doing to repair something is pretty similar to me running out to Coerthas and demanding you to stop your SP party for a bit isn't it? You'd probably think "Who the **** does this guy think he is??" I know though, they're "just crafting"Smiley: laugh...

It still comes down to this game having a huge emphasis on people working together. Mutual respect goes a long way in getting things done. Talking to people works wonders sometimes too. I've still only had 3 or so people haggle with me on goods a few months into the game.

Edited, Nov 20th 2010 7:32am by TwistedOwl
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#65 Nov 20 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Since incentive to repair items is part of the equation, my thoughts: why not increase the skill gains for repairing? Right now, very little skill is awarded for a successful repair. Make it so repairs gain the same amount of skill gain as making the item. Such a move would make crafters want to repair gear and actively seek such opportunities.

Edit: A correction, make it so skill gain is based on a percentage of what was repaired to prevent abuse. If you repaired 50% of the item, then you get 50% of the potential skill gain that you would have for making the item.

Edited, Nov 20th 2010 12:07pm by Meicyn
#66LordAshal, Posted: Nov 20 2010 at 10:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Very true.
#67 Nov 20 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
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As a semi-serious crafter I think part of the problem is a percieved lack of respect from people who don't craft - and don't want to craft. I feel like people who are hardcore with melee jobs would have no problem expecting a crafter to pay top dollar for that hot drop they just got that only people in their tier of melee job can get - but then they think that crafters shouldn't be allowed to demand top dollar for their skill - namely crafting.

If the npc charges 30K to fix your item to 75% how is it not a bit of slap in the face to ask a crafter to fix it for 5K with their own item? Especially when a melee character can easily make 100K off 1 leve reset by R23. (Without difficulty at all).

I know not all people are like that but I see it in this thread, people feeling like crafters should just fix everything out of the kindness of their hearts. Meanwhile you want me to pay top dollar for that tallow candle or hedgemole spine you just got.

Edited, Nov 20th 2010 8:39pm by Olorinus
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#68 Nov 20 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
As a semi-serious crafter I think part of the problem is a percieved lack of respect from people who don't craft - and don't want to craft. I feel like people who are hardcore with melee jobs would have no problem expecting a crafter to pay top dollar for that hot drop they just got that only people in their tier of melee job can get - but then they think that crafters shouldn't be allowed to demand top dollar for their skill - namely crafting.

If the npc charges 30K to fix your item to 75% how is it not a bit of slap in the face to ask a crafter to fix it for 5K with their own item? Especially when a melee character can easily make 100K off 1 leve reset by R23. (Without difficulty at all).

I know not all people are like that but I see it in this thread, people feeling like crafters should just fix everything out of the kindness of their hearts. Meanwhile you want me to pay top dollar for that tallow candle or hedgemole spine you just got.

Edited, Nov 20th 2010 8:39pm by Olorinus


If they don't have the mats that's something different.

But like I said, if I have a surplus of mats then I would have no problem repairing something for someone, no charge. I think it's very selfish not to lend help where you can.

#69 Nov 20 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:
But like I said, if I have a surplus of mats then I would have no problem repairing something for someone, no charge. I think it's very selfish not to lend help where you can.

If I follow your logic,

All those alchemists who skill up on dyes should just give them away to tailors who need them. It's very selfish not to lend help where you can.
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#70 Nov 20 2010 at 11:16 PM Rating: Default
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Docent42 wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
But like I said, if I have a surplus of mats then I would have no problem repairing something for someone, no charge. I think it's very selfish not to lend help where you can.

If I follow your logic,

All those alchemists who skill up on dyes should just give them away to tailors who need them. It's very selfish not to lend help where you can.


If they ask for help then yes.
#71 Nov 21 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Demanding them to jump up from what they're doing to repair something is pretty similar to me running out to Coerthas and demanding you to stop your SP party for a bit isn't it?


To me this is not a similar thing. If I'm crafting I don't have to make split second decisons to keep people alive, I'm not surrounded by things that want to kill me and I don't have to be aware of my surroundings. I'm in a safe place, taking my time.

Also I would not respond to a demand that I drop what I was doing, if they cannot wait for me to finish then they can go else where.
TwistedOwl wrote:

It's never just about the money/reward for me, but more of a mutual respect that isn't always there.

When you speak of mutual respect, I don't know what you mean by this. Could you clairify?

TwistedOwl wrote:
Money isn't all that important, and for that same reason those joke rewards like 1g & such are even more of a slap in the face.


You say that money isn't important but you say that 1g is a slap in the face? What if that is all they can afford? Or maybe they are lying. Either way if money is not an issue it should not matter what the reward is.

TwistedOwl wrote:
Other times though, maybe someone just sat down with a fresh support buff and is doing some serious grinding.


To me this would be the best time for someone to ask for help because it has the most chance of success for them. Once again if money is no issue, this should not either.

TwistedOwl wrote:
It still comes down to this game having a huge emphasis on people working together.


Very true.

If we nit pick on what rewards we receive for favors our growth as a community will be self-centered, and those that come after will be corrupted by it.

In FFXI when ever I helped someone with something and they asked "How can I repay you?" I always answered with "Surpass me". I think people should have things to look up to, not down on.


I wasn't equating the dangers of fighting to the dangers of crafting. The comparison I was making was that a player can be in an SP party and it's understood, "Oh you're busy". If someone sits down for a serious craft grinding session to rankup, to some perspectives it's more like "Oh, you're not busy with anything important." And that's part of the mutual respect thing.

1g is a slap in the face any way you look at it. Even LS people give me decent rewards after I mention I don't want 'em. It's a nice "thank you" that isn't required, but appreciated. 1g doesn't seem to come off as "Thanks for stopping and fixing this for me." Though we're all playing the same game, not everyone appreciates the situation of others. 1g says to me "My gil is worth more than your time and mats." I don't think I'm completely off in not wanting to rush to help that person out. You could include crafters who will only do repairs for large rewards in that also. I wouldn't consider that to be any better either...

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 1:38am by TwistedOwl
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#72 Nov 21 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Default
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TwistedOwl wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Demanding them to jump up from what they're doing to repair something is pretty similar to me running out to Coerthas and demanding you to stop your SP party for a bit isn't it?


To me this is not a similar thing. If I'm crafting I don't have to make split second decisons to keep people alive, I'm not surrounded by things that want to kill me and I don't have to be aware of my surroundings. I'm in a safe place, taking my time.

Also I would not respond to a demand that I drop what I was doing, if they cannot wait for me to finish then they can go else where.
TwistedOwl wrote:

It's never just about the money/reward for me, but more of a mutual respect that isn't always there.

When you speak of mutual respect, I don't know what you mean by this. Could you clairify?

TwistedOwl wrote:
Money isn't all that important, and for that same reason those joke rewards like 1g & such are even more of a slap in the face.


You say that money isn't important but you say that 1g is a slap in the face? What if that is all they can afford? Or maybe they are lying. Either way if money is not an issue it should not matter what the reward is.

TwistedOwl wrote:
Other times though, maybe someone just sat down with a fresh support buff and is doing some serious grinding.


To me this would be the best time for someone to ask for help because it has the most chance of success for them. Once again if money is no issue, this should not either.

TwistedOwl wrote:
It still comes down to this game having a huge emphasis on people working together.


Very true.

If we nit pick on what rewards we receive for favors our growth as a community will be self-centered, and those that come after will be corrupted by it.

In FFXI when ever I helped someone with something and they asked "How can I repay you?" I always answered with "Surpass me". I think people should have things to look up to, not down on.


I wasn't equating the dangers of fighting to the dangers of crafting. The comparison I was making was that a player can be in an SP party and it's understood, "Oh you're busy". If someone sits down for a serious craft grinding session to rankup, to some perspectives it's more like "Oh, you're not busy with anything important." And that's part of the mutual respect thing.

1g is a slap in the face any way you look at it. Even LS people give me decent rewards after I mention I don't want 'em. It's a nice "thank you" that isn't required, but appreciated. 1g doesn't seem to come off as "Thanks for stopping and fixing this for me."


I see.
1g to me says "I'm in need, help me", but that's me. To me, if you say 1g is a slap in the face then to you it is needed. You see where I'm coming from?

I don't think virtual money carries more weight than helping others, but that's me.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.
#73 Nov 21 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:

I see.
1g to me says "I'm in need, help me", but that's me. To me, if you say 1g is a slap in the face then to you it is needed. You see where I'm coming from?

I don't think virtual money carries more weight than helping others, but that's me.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.


Yea, I see what you're saying. And in some ways I agree. Because worrying about virtual money is silly. Like was mentioned though, we should make everything in the game free then. Unless everyone gets on the bandwagon for that, I'm going to need gil somewhere along the line. Because money is really important to some, it becomes more important than it should be to me. Why should one of my ways of earning gil in the system be shortchanged when others are keeping high prices for theirs?

Yes, repairing an item for someone is a simple process. Nothing to be glorified for sure. But while I'm helping them get repairs so they can progress further in the game, a decent reward is a nice gesture that returns the favor by helping me progress.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 2:01am by TwistedOwl
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#74 Nov 21 2010 at 1:15 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
LordAshal wrote:

I see.
1g to me says "I'm in need, help me", but that's me. To me, if you say 1g is a slap in the face then to you it is needed. You see where I'm coming from?

I don't think virtual money carries more weight than helping others, but that's me.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.


Yea, I see what you're saying. And in some ways I agree. Because worrying about virtual money is silly. Like was mentioned though, we should make everything in the game free then. Unless everyone gets on the bandwagon for that, I'm going to need gil somewhere along the line. Because money is really important to some, it becomes more important than it should be to me. Why should one of my ways of earning gil in the system be shortchanged when others are keeping high prices for theirs?


I see what you're saying about earning gil and you should do what you think is necessary to earn it.

My comments pertain to helping someone who asks for it, and them not having a way to offer compensation.

I never said that we should make things for free to everyone, just that if someone asks for help for a repair, or they come to you with the mats they already obtained, or they need mats for an item(that we have a surplus of) to make that there should be no issue of recompense.

There is a song that comes to mind, it's called "Keeping the Innocent" by Belle Epoque and the chorus is:
Try your best,
you might just get to them
to follow you,
but its better than giving in.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 2:42am by LordAshal
#75 Nov 21 2010 at 1:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:

I see what you're saying about earning gil and you should do what you think is necessary to earn it.

My comments pertain to helping someone who asks for it, and them not having a way to offer compensation.

I never said that we should make things for free to everyone, just that if someone asks for help for a repair, or they come to you with the mats they already obtained, or they need mats for an item(that we have a surplus of) to make that there should be no issue of recompense.


Right on. We agree more than it seemed in our previous posts then. My posts were mainly written from the perspective of a crafter so I'm sure it came off one-sided, but that mutual respect stuff I was throwing in there indeed needs to be mutual. That includes crafters not turning down repairs that don't offer amazing rewards and ridiculously overcharging for goods. And in all cases, being helpful when you can be...
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#76 Nov 21 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:
Docent42 wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
But like I said, if I have a surplus of mats then I would have no problem repairing something for someone, no charge. I think it's very selfish not to lend help where you can.

If I follow your logic,

All those alchemists who skill up on dyes should just give them away to tailors who need them. It's very selfish not to lend help where you can.


If they ask for help then yes.



Some of us don't live in a communist society, sorry.
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#77 Nov 21 2010 at 2:14 AM Rating: Default
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LyleVertigo wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
Docent42 wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
But like I said, if I have a surplus of mats then I would have no problem repairing something for someone, no charge. I think it's very selfish not to lend help where you can.

If I follow your logic,

All those alchemists who skill up on dyes should just give them away to tailors who need them. It's very selfish not to lend help where you can.


If they ask for help then yes.



Some of us don't live in a communist society, sorry.


What society is Eorzea?
#78 Nov 21 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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LyleVertigo wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
Docent42 wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
But like I said, if I have a surplus of mats then I would have no problem repairing something for someone, no charge. I think it's very selfish not to lend help where you can.

If I follow your logic,

All those alchemists who skill up on dyes should just give them away to tailors who need them. It's very selfish not to lend help where you can.


If they ask for help then yes.



Some of us don't live in a communist society, sorry.


Some of us don't know the difference between communism and socialism either, apparently.
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#79 Nov 21 2010 at 5:03 AM Rating: Decent
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RisonSrithuram wrote:
As TwistedOwl said, use shards instead of gil to seek repairs. I had a hard time getting repairs on some of the higher level weaving and leatherworking items I have on me, until I started offering 15-25 wind shards.

With gil being so easy to attain, it's not worth it to some people to repair something for 4-8k.. but even the most stuck up crafters will stop and repair something for shards. :)



Late comment but this is true. Also, make sure you use Auto-translate and shout to reach more people. :)

If you do crafting leves regularly for the things you need repairs on, you should be able to repair them yourself so long as your gear rnk not 10 ranks above your crafting skill. For example, if your gear rank is 20 and your craft rnk is 10, you'll probably only need to rise 2 rnks to start attempting to repair.

Oh and one more thing, I put EVERYthing up for repair, even stuff that's like 10% damage. And I repair every leve reset when there are more people around. :) If some one's there who can repair stuff, I want them to repair all my stuff. (I offer like 50 shards)

I've never waiting for more than 5 mins.




Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:09am by jwhite1083

Update my siggy! :D

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:12am by jwhite1083
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#80 Nov 21 2010 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
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Regarding some of the above conversation (I'm not going to quote a text wall):
As far as helping people goes... yeah, I do it all the time...
Earlier today I had JUST hit Grid and 2 people (grouped) were shouting offering 20k each for a warp to LL (where I just came from), then a 3rd individual chimed in wanting the same thing and offering the same amount of gil. I told them all where to come meet me, and (as I always do with my free-ride policy) refused the money and just told them to "pay it forward", then I warped them to LL and warped myself BACK to Grid again.
Later in Uldah, a person was shouting for 2 Alumen (not sure if they realized that there is a vendor for it outside of the Adventurer's Guild, but whatever), I gave them 4 (it freed an inventory slot on my retainer) and refused the offered payment, saying "just pay it forward".
I'm not great at repairing a lot of things because I'm very spread out on my crafts... but I can do almost all of the low stuff, and I carry my own repair mats, and have others stored on my retainer... and I don't mind if they haven't put up much (if it needs 1 copper nugget out of my stack of 99, it isn't costing me much)...

These are things I do ALL THE TIME, I want a happy helpful community and as Ghandi said, "You must be the change you want to see in the world." I try to spread the love, you know?

So I don't think many people would argue with my claim that I'm pretty generous and helpful...
But when I see someone offering 1gil for a repair... They don't get it from me, that's for sure.

When I refuse payment offered for a service I provide, that's my choice.
When someone (effectively) refuses to offer payment for a service I COULD provide, that's their choice... and I think it's a bad one.
And no, I don't accept the argument that "maybe that's all they can afford", 1 gil, really? Do YOU even really believe that argument?

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan

P.S. (edit) Regarding the "pay it forward" thing, a little bit came back to me today (or so I like to think)... I was working some alchemy in the vendor market area and saw someone making Raptor Sinew Cords (which I've wanted for a while to make myself a Dodoskin Field Belt)... I paid attention to try to make sure they weren't doing it for a leve, and then asked what they would charge me, they asked "how many" and I said, roughly, "Only NEED 1, but I like to stock up". They offered 12 for 30k, I had money to burn (I have for ages) so I agreed. During the trade, I put up the 30k and then they put up the 12 and then another 12 and accepted. Quite nice of them. :D

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 7:42am by AilysFoxglove
#81 Nov 21 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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AilysFoxglove wrote:
Do YOU even really believe that argument?


If I'm helping someone yes.

Because I did not ask for it, the amount does not matter.

If 1gil is too low an amount for you when you say you don't want anything, then you do want something.

Get it?







Edited, Nov 21st 2010 8:45am by LordAshal
#82 Nov 21 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
49 posts
You should think twice when buying new equipment. I skipped Tortoiseshell hora because of the rare repair materials needed. Unlike Spike Knuckles, which require a single iron nugget and I can get them repaired pretty quickly. If you are sticking to SP parties and are constantly at the helm of new equips, expect your repairs to come slowly. Crafters much catch up with the curve.
#83 Nov 21 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:
If 1gil is too low an amount for you when you say you don't want anything, then you do want something.


You know what, you're absolutely right... I do want a few things; common decency, courtesy, and (to quote Aretha Franklin) R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

The problem with 1gil, to me, is that it is them saying:
"I don't want to pay for your time, effort, or mats. I don't appreciate you or the skills that you have put time and effort into developing... and really, I'm probably doing YOU a favor giving you a chance to get a whopping 15 Sp for your little 'craft'. I would put 0gil but the game doesn't allow it."

If you have ever waited tables and gotten a 1 penny tip (especially if you gave that table really good service and they shouldn't have had anything to complain about)... it's about the same thing.

It isn't about me getting X amount of money, at least for me. And I have done repairs for 1gil... but it was for people in my parties and I told them to put it on their bazaar for 1gil, because I wanted to offer the repairs basically for free. Like I said, when offered, I usually turn down payment for whatever favor I do for someone... but if not a matter courtesy, then at least as a recognition that you are doing them a favor, they should make the offer.

But the people we are discussing here are actively trying to NOT offer any compensation at all. More or less, they want it for free.

I was raised to believe that freebies are something offered, NOT asked for, to do so is rude and disrespectful.
If you were raised to believe something different, that's fine... but please don't infer that just because some of us won't do repairs for people who expect it for free (in effect) that it is because we are greedy or that our intentions are less pure.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan
#84 Nov 21 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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thejones wrote:
Quote:
NPC charges for 20k repairing r20ish item to 75%.

OP offered 4k for repairing his r20ish gear to 100%.

He just Paying Less for More and he want it FAST.

Now he come to whine in the forum when it just didnt happened on a random day.



3rd ~ if your repair requires some obscure, rare, hard to find, repair mats, you find them yourself, put them in your bazzar at some ridiculous price which you offset by providing a ridiculous return reward on the repair.


Ya that works until some dude who randomly has that matt comes by and just takes the ridiculous reward and leaves the matt in your bazaar behind... lol
#85 Nov 21 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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I had always assumed that the 1g repairs kinda meant, I need this repaired, send me a tell. I never did it myself, maybe people do just expect "free" repairs.


Basing your repair fee on what the NPCs charge seems wrong. Its like saying that since growth formula alpha is sold for 2000ish from NPCs, the ones I'm crafting are automatically worth 1750. Theres a market for repairs just like any other crafted good, its just very hard to determine. In the past, I've typically doubled the cost of the mat, or if that was still a silly low number I'd make it at least 2-5k. Probably would have increased that as my gear got higher, but I quit at level 16 with my hempen robe being the most expensive thing I had.

Repairs should be mutually beneficial, the combat guy getting his gear straight, the crafter walking away with a small amount of SP and some GIL in exchange for their 20 seconds.
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#86 Nov 21 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Zorvan wrote:

Some of us don't know the difference between communism and socialism either, apparently.


Is there really a difference? No, there isn't.
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#87LordAshal, Posted: Nov 21 2010 at 12:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If someone is asking for help, it should be free.
#88 Nov 21 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:
AilysFoxglove wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
If 1gil is too low an amount for you when you say you don't want anything, then you do want something.


You know what, you're absolutely right... I do want a few things; common decency, courtesy, and (to quote Aretha Franklin) R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

The problem with 1gil, to me, is that it is them saying:
"I don't want to pay for your time, effort, or mats. I don't appreciate you or the skills that you have put time and effort into developing... and really, I'm probably doing YOU a favor giving you a chance to get a whopping 15 Sp for your little 'craft'. I would put 0gil but the game doesn't allow it."

If you have ever waited tables and gotten a 1 penny tip (especially if you gave that table really good service and they shouldn't have had anything to complain about)... it's about the same thing.

It isn't about me getting X amount of money, at least for me. And I have done repairs for 1gil... but it was for people in my parties and I told them to put it on their bazaar for 1gil, because I wanted to offer the repairs basically for free. Like I said, when offered, I usually turn down payment for whatever favor I do for someone... but if not a matter courtesy, then at least as a recognition that you are doing them a favor, they should make the offer.

But the people we are discussing here are actively trying to NOT offer any compensation at all. More or less, they want it for free.

I was raised to believe that freebies are something offered, NOT asked for, to do so is rude and disrespectful.
If you were raised to believe something different, that's fine... but please don't infer that just because some of us won't do repairs for people who expect it for free (in effect) that it is because we are greedy or that our intentions are less pure.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan


You're missing the point entirely.

If someone asks for help, and they have very little gil. They offer you 1gil in compensation, it should be enough if you asked for nothing.

If you ask for nothing and recieve nothing, but you feel slighted for getting nothing then your intentions are greed and less pure as you say.

If you ask for nothing, getting 1gil is not saying anything because you asked for nothing.

Did you even read anything I said.

If you have a surplus of mats, why not give it to someone who needs help?

Waiting tables has absolutely nothing to do with anything that has been said.

People sitting at a table are not asking for help, they are paying for a service.

AilysFoxglove wrote:

And I have done repairs for 1gil... but it was for people in my parties and I told them to put it on their bazaar for 1gil, because I wanted to offer the repairs basically for free.


Then what are you even saying? 1gil here is OK but not over here? Why?

AilysFoxglove wrote:
they should make the offer.


You see? You just said you want something. Even though you SAY you don't want anything.

AilysFoxglove wrote:
But the people we are discussing here are actively trying to NOT offer any compensation at all. More or less, they want it for free.


Yes, because they are asking for help.

AilysFoxglove wrote:
I was raised to believe that freebies are something offered, NOT asked for, to do so is rude and disrespectful.


If someone is asking for help, there should be no price. So you're telling me that if someone's car were to break down in front of your house and they come to you and ask to use your phone you would ask for compensation?

AilysFoxglove wrote:
but please don't infer that just because some of us won't do repairs for people who expect it for free (in effect) that it is because we are greedy or that our intentions are less pure.


If someone is asking for help, it should be free.

I can't make this any more plain. If you can't see where I'm coming from after all that I've said then let this be it.



To prove a point about this I must now play devils advocate

I need help with mats
therefore, since you said it should be free

you should give me ALL your crafting mats, for free, no charge

after all, thats what your saying we should do isnt it
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#89LordAshal, Posted: Nov 21 2010 at 12:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You didn't read anything I said either.
#90 Nov 21 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:
Vedis wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
AilysFoxglove wrote:
LordAshal wrote:
If 1gil is too low an amount for you when you say you don't want anything, then you do want something.


You know what, you're absolutely right... I do want a few things; common decency, courtesy, and (to quote Aretha Franklin) R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

The problem with 1gil, to me, is that it is them saying:
"I don't want to pay for your time, effort, or mats. I don't appreciate you or the skills that you have put time and effort into developing... and really, I'm probably doing YOU a favor giving you a chance to get a whopping 15 Sp for your little 'craft'. I would put 0gil but the game doesn't allow it."

If you have ever waited tables and gotten a 1 penny tip (especially if you gave that table really good service and they shouldn't have had anything to complain about)... it's about the same thing.

It isn't about me getting X amount of money, at least for me. And I have done repairs for 1gil... but it was for people in my parties and I told them to put it on their bazaar for 1gil, because I wanted to offer the repairs basically for free. Like I said, when offered, I usually turn down payment for whatever favor I do for someone... but if not a matter courtesy, then at least as a recognition that you are doing them a favor, they should make the offer.

But the people we are discussing here are actively trying to NOT offer any compensation at all. More or less, they want it for free.

I was raised to believe that freebies are something offered, NOT asked for, to do so is rude and disrespectful.
If you were raised to believe something different, that's fine... but please don't infer that just because some of us won't do repairs for people who expect it for free (in effect) that it is because we are greedy or that our intentions are less pure.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan


You're missing the point entirely.

If someone asks for help, and they have very little gil. They offer you 1gil in compensation, it should be enough if you asked for nothing.

If you ask for nothing and recieve nothing, but you feel slighted for getting nothing then your intentions are greed and less pure as you say.

If you ask for nothing, getting 1gil is not saying anything because you asked for nothing.

Did you even read anything I said.

If you have a surplus of mats, why not give it to someone who needs help?

Waiting tables has absolutely nothing to do with anything that has been said.

People sitting at a table are not asking for help, they are paying for a service.

AilysFoxglove wrote:

And I have done repairs for 1gil... but it was for people in my parties and I told them to put it on their bazaar for 1gil, because I wanted to offer the repairs basically for free.


Then what are you even saying? 1gil here is OK but not over here? Why?

AilysFoxglove wrote:
they should make the offer.


You see? You just said you want something. Even though you SAY you don't want anything.

AilysFoxglove wrote:
But the people we are discussing here are actively trying to NOT offer any compensation at all. More or less, they want it for free.


Yes, because they are asking for help.

AilysFoxglove wrote:
I was raised to believe that freebies are something offered, NOT asked for, to do so is rude and disrespectful.


If someone is asking for help, there should be no price. So you're telling me that if someone's car were to break down in front of your house and they come to you and ask to use your phone you would ask for compensation?

AilysFoxglove wrote:
but please don't infer that just because some of us won't do repairs for people who expect it for free (in effect) that it is because we are greedy or that our intentions are less pure.


If someone is asking for help, it should be free.

I can't make this any more plain. If you can't see where I'm coming from after all that I've said then let this be it.



To prove a point about this I must now play devils advocate

I need help with mats
therefore, since you said it should be free

you should give me ALL your crafting mats, for free, no charge

after all, thats what your saying we should do isnt it



You didn't read anything I said either.

If you have a SURPLUS. A SURPLUS. Meaning extra, then give the extra surplus. Not ALL.


well if your a battlecraft everything is surplus, so the point still stands

you CAN NOT expect something for nothing, period

if someone doesnt give you "free help/repairs/mats/anything" means they are normal, nothing is wrong

there is no magical rule saying just cuz i have 50000 bone chips means i have to repair stuff they use for free
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#91 Nov 21 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
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Vedis wrote:

well if your a battlecraft everything is surplus, so the point still stands

you CAN NOT expect something for nothing, period

if someone doesn't give you "free help/repairs/mats/anything" means they are normal, nothing is wrong

there is no magical rule saying just cuz i have 50000 bone chips means i have to repair stuff they use for free



Irregardless of what ever Disciple you're referring to, not everything is surplus.

Do you know what surplus means?
"Being more than or in excess of what is needed or required: surplus grain."

If you're a gladiator, and you get 50,000 bone chips and you want money for them, they are not surplus. If you don't need them, and don't want anything for them then it's surplus.

Vedis wrote:
you CAN NOT expect something for nothing, period

Give me an example that is relevant to what I'm talking about.

If someone doesn't give you "free help/repairs/mats/anything" they are normal only because that is what most people do, but that does not mean it's right.

If you read what is written, I'm not saying you have to repair stuff they use for free. Just that you should(meaning my opinion) if they have nothing to give in return.



Edited, Nov 21st 2010 2:15pm by LordAshal
#92 Nov 21 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
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i agree w/ the OP. crafters need to realize we need them to take time away from their grinding and get some sp from reparing instead in order for us to go out and get the crystals they need to craft to begin with. They need to make the rewards for repairing a bit more lucrative cause when im paying 5k an item for a repair and no one will take 30 seconds out for me to PAY THEM to gain sp. something is wrong. no one can keep up w/ a 75% repair for 200k each time @ the ripoff NPC either. Its already cost me way TOO much $$ due to the fact I have limited playtime and I dont want to spend it standing around spamming in hopes of getting repaired. Im already getting flashbacks of standing in jeuno LFG for 10 hours before quitting FFXI out of frustration.
#93 Nov 21 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:
Vedis wrote:

well if your a battlecraft everything is surplus, so the point still stands

you CAN NOT expect something for nothing, period

if someone doesn't give you "free help/repairs/mats/anything" means they are normal, nothing is wrong

there is no magical rule saying just cuz i have 50000 bone chips means i have to repair stuff they use for free



Irregardless of what ever Disciple you're referring to, not everything is surplus.

Do you know what surplus means?
"Being more than or in excess of what is needed or required: surplus grain."

If you're a gladiator, and you get 50,000 bone chips and you want money for them, they are not surplus. If you don't need them, and don't want anything for them then it's surplus.

Vedis wrote:
you CAN NOT expect something for nothing, period

Give me an example that is relevant to what I'm talking about.

If someone doesn't give you "free help/repairs/mats/anything" they are normal only because that is what most people do, but that does not mean it's right.

If you read what is written, I'm not saying you have to repair stuff they use for free. Just that you should(meaning my opinion) if they have nothing to give in return.



Edited, Nov 21st 2010 2:15pm by LordAshal


explain how it is remotely possible for someone to have nothing to give in return
its not
they have gil, they have crystals, they have shards

if for some reason they have absolutely nothing, something is seriously wrong with them and they deserve to get nothing in return

I understand being low on gil, it happens
I understand that some people will claim they dont have the gil/etc to give cuz they are saving for something
BUT, that doesnt mean they should be given freebies just because they are needing something and do not want to pay the acceptable prices.

i did read everything you said, and your defending people who wanna be cheapskates. plain and simple

you can not get something for nothing, if you have nothing, you did something wrong, period, no one to blame but yourself
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#94 Nov 21 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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klepp6761 wrote:
i agree w/ the OP. crafters need to realize we need them to take time away from their grinding and get some sp from reparing instead in order for us to go out and get the crystals they need to craft to begin with. They need to make the rewards for repairing a bit more lucrative cause when im paying 5k an item for a repair and no one will take 30 seconds out for me to PAY THEM to gain sp. something is wrong. no one can keep up w/ a 75% repair for 200k each time @ the ripoff NPC either. Its already cost me way TOO much $$ due to the fact I have limited playtime and I dont want to spend it standing around spamming in hopes of getting repaired. Im already getting flashbacks of standing in jeuno LFG for 10 hours before quitting FFXI out of frustration.


This is a very disrespectful way of thinking and really kills your chances of getting repairs if you were spewing it out in /shout. They don't need to make the rewards more lucrative. If DoW and DoM players want Some_Random_DoH to repair their gear for cheap, they need to stop ripping off DoH on crystals, shards and materials and actually start offering up the appropriate crystals as the reward and not gil. If it costs a crafter more to make the material than what you offer for the material and they need truckloads of the material to skill up, of course few are going to take you up on your "generous" offer. This is why people complain about everything going to a crystal standard--the prices keep going up and up and you're better off just trading in crystals instead of gil.
#95 Nov 21 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem is there aren't enough crafters who want to do what non-crafters need from the crafters. They're going to have to either lower the amount of help players need from other PC crafters, or really increase the incentive for crafters to repair things.
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#96 Nov 21 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
The problem is there aren't enough crafters who want to do what non-crafters need from the crafters. They're going to have to either lower the amount of help players need from other PC crafters, or really increase the incentive for crafters to repair things.


again, the reason the crafters dont want to help, is mainly because they cant, or because the battlers who need repairs arent offering acceptable prices.

if it cost me 5k to make the item to repair your gear, your offering me 1k, isnt gonna cut it
and the fact that its costing me 5k, is because thats what you wanted for those items to begin with

its a stupid cycle

battlers want more for their mats, so they charge more
crafters then have to sell their wares for more
and battlers in return, jack up the prices for the mats more


now on the higher end stuff, this is understandable, it takes more for battlers to get the material, its hard to get

but this is happening on the low low end stuff too

why the **** are people charging 5k+ for a common drop from tier 1 harvesting/mobs? just because crafters can use it readily, and easily at all sorts of levels.(sheepskin im talking about folks, as well as maple sap, among other things)
its all greed


many of us crafters want to be able to make stuff and do stuff cheaper for the battlers, but we just cant afford to due to the way they are coming at us in regards to us being able to get our materials to do it for them
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#97 Nov 21 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Vedis wrote:
explain how it is remotely possible for someone to have nothing to give in return


They sold they're crystals and shards to amass gil for the purchase of armor and weapons.

Vedis wrote:
BUT, that doesnt mean they should be given freebies just because they are needing something and do not want to pay the acceptable prices.


But in my opinion they should if they have the materials already purchased, or you have a surplus of the item they need.
Vedis wrote:

i did read everything you said, and your defending people who wanna be cheapskates. plain and simple


They could be, they could not be. Do you know for certain? Do you have access to they're account? I don't.
Vedis wrote:

you can not get something for nothing, if you have nothing, you did something wrong, period, no one to blame but yourself


So we should not help those that have fallen to rise back to their feet?

#98 Nov 21 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordAshal wrote:
Vedis wrote:
explain how it is remotely possible for someone to have nothing to give in return


They sold they're crystals and shards to amass gil for the purchase of armor and weapons.

Vedis wrote:
BUT, that doesnt mean they should be given freebies just because they are needing something and do not want to pay the acceptable prices.


But in my opinion they should if they have the materials already purchased, or you have a surplus of the item they need.
Vedis wrote:

i did read everything you said, and your defending people who wanna be cheapskates. plain and simple


They could be, they could not be. Do you know for certain? Do you have access to they're account? I don't.
Vedis wrote:

you can not get something for nothing, if you have nothing, you did something wrong, period, no one to blame but yourself


So we should not help those that have fallen to rise back to their feet?




theres a HUGE flaw in your logic here

if they just spent everything to buy the gear

its already fully repaired......
if they bought the gear, and had stuff that was broken that was nesisary to fight with(the stuff they didnt replace) they should have set their priorities straight and repaired it before buying more gear.

what your stating is basicaly to help those who cant help themselves because they dont want to, not because they cant.


if the person just got new gear, they are broke, they have the ability to go farm for mats/money to repair stuff, plain and simple
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#99 Nov 21 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Vedis wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
The problem is there aren't enough crafters who want to do what non-crafters need from the crafters. They're going to have to either lower the amount of help players need from other PC crafters, or really increase the incentive for crafters to repair things.


again, the reason the crafters dont want to help, is mainly because they cant, or because the battlers who need repairs arent offering acceptable prices.

if it cost me 5k to make the item to repair your gear, your offering me 1k, isnt gonna cut it
and the fact that its costing me 5k, is because thats what you wanted for those items to begin with



Yeah, you bring up a good point, that there simply aren't people available to repair things, which is another huge flaw I think in this system.

Also I do agree, some people do put up laughable offers for repairs. I consider them about as much of the problem as crafters wanting 20k to repair something that uses a 3k mat, just because they are level X and thats what they feel their skill is worth.
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#100LordAshal, Posted: Nov 21 2010 at 2:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You asked how it could be possible to have nothing to give in return, I answered you.
#101 Nov 21 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Goood. Goood.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1518/familyguygood20good.gif
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