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Balancing is Half the Battle (11/19/2010)Follow

#1 Nov 19 2010 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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Lodestone wrote:
One area of focus for the November 24 version update is battle balancing. Among the many adjustments being made are changes to the accuracy of physical and magic attacks, enmity rates, actions for all classes, and reductions to the amount of skill points needed to rank up, and more.


Character Progression
Accuracy
The accuracy rates for actions in general, both physical and magic, have been increased, making it easier for players to land attacks. This will, subsequently, result in more skill points.

Skill Points in Parties
Skill points earned in battle are now awarded after an enemy is defeated. Additionally, discrepancies in the amount of skill points awarded to party members have been reduced. Together with these changes, the overall number of skill points awarded has also been increased, making progression easier even in smaller parties.

The above changes will serve to increase the tempo of battle, and also allow players to obtain more skill points than was previously possible. To further facilitate the process of ranking up, the amount of skill points required to attain ranks 11 through 31 has been reduced. The reductions are most significant for the rank range of 11 through 20, as we would like to enable players the ability to engage in more goal-oriented content, such as the hunting of notorious monsters, at an earlier stage of play. Further information regarding these changes will be released in the version update details Topics post of November 24.



Balancing Adjustments to Actions
In order to improve the uniqueness and flavor of each class in party battle, we have made a number of adjustments to the effects, durations, execution costs, and enmity generation rates of a number of actions. Below is a sampling of these changes.


Pugilist
Featherfoot
Active duration increased from 15 to 30 seconds.
Evasion rate increased.

Gladiator
Luminous Spire
MP cost reduced from 20 to 10.

Marauder
Foresight
Stamina cost reduced from 5 to 3.5.
Active duration increased from 15 to 30 seconds.
Parry rate increased.
Bloodbath
Stamina cost reduced from 6 to 3.5.

Archer
Trifurcate
MP cost reduced from 30 to 15.

Lancer
Speed Surge, Life Surge
Active duration increased from 120 to 180 seconds.

Conjurer
Cure, Cure II, Cure III
Enmity generation adjusted.

Thaumaturge
Scourge
Amount of damage dealt increased.
Sacrifice, Sacrifice II, Sacrifice III
Enmity generation adjusted.
Amount of HP healed increased.


http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=b49c9be9669a5a691b645a988c80e4ae1f950ff8

"Skill points earned in battle are now awarded after an enemy is defeated. " Well, technically they are awarded after the enemy is defeated too, but I'm guessing they are going to start working like physical exp?
And Foresight finally gets fixed YES :D

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 7:27am by MajidahSihaam
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#2 Nov 19 2010 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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I really hope that means, in some cryptic SE way, that SP is no longer going to be random or maybe based on positive party performance... would make my day.
#3 Nov 19 2010 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=b49c9be9669a5a691b645a988c80e4ae1f950ff8

"Skill points earned in battle are now awarded after an enemy is defeated. "



That sounds like it means instead of after each action, they will just be rewarded at the end. Hopefully the amount is increased as well? Seems it is.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 8:06am by Xothis
#4 Nov 19 2010 at 6:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I found it amusing that I was more interested by the shiny lightning attack by the weird looking salamander thingy than the news up the update.

Though to be fair, I can't play the game for another couple days or so, so I know nothing of the battle system, but I know a interesting picture when i see it!
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#5 Nov 19 2010 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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"Balancing is Half the Battle"

I've gotta say I'm loving these new update titles.
Sure as **** beats the old "Ixion is come"

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 7:45am by ditx
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#6 Nov 19 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xothis wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=b49c9be9669a5a691b645a988c80e4ae1f950ff8

"Skill points earned in battle are now awarded after an enemy is defeated. "



That sounds like it means instead of after each action, they will just be rewarded at the end. Hopefully the amount is increased as well? Seems it is.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 8:06am by Xothis


They also said the increase in accuracy will lead to more SP. So I think they're implementing both: action based SP and kill based SP. This really does benefit both soloers (still get good SP for long kills) and partiers (encourages fast kills).

I'm excited. :)
#7 Nov 19 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
"Ixion is come"


HAHAHAHA!

The news is good to me. Although I'm not sure if this means they will just award set amounts at the end of a battle or if they'll just hide the per hit amounts and just show the final figure. Either way, more SP = BAM!

If all goes well with this update I could be playing this for a while. I'm already having a pretty **** good time with the game. Now that they are making it suck less, I can only see my enjoyment levels increasing!

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#8 Nov 19 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Lodestone wrote:
Additionally, discrepancies in the amount of skill points awarded to party members have been reduced.


This is the line I am most interested in, as currently the game's battle system is reminiscent of Final Fantasy 2 in that it forces you to play the game horribly in order to most efficiently skill up --- "Come here and get smacked around healer if you want to level up, no, no, don't use protect!"

This line is making me hope that they're not just tallying everything at the end and multiplying it by 2, but that they're actually removing any discrepancies and just rewarding the whole party on its overall performance. The fact is in a party full of melee a Conjurer healer has to do way too much work in order to gain the same amount of SP, and I play with a Conjurer whenever I play - duo - and it'd be nice to not have to purposefully take more damage and use none of my defensive abilities just so she can stay within a rank of me.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 6:13am by RamseySylph
#9 Nov 19 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Default
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I'm a conjurer, so SP gains in battle can be pretty awefull sometimes.

If I'm the only healer in party, I usually end up spamming cure and sacrifice, and getting the occasional dart in there. SP cab vary from 20 - 400 ish, with the average around 200.

If there are 2 or more healers in the party, well lets just save the SP sucks, and leave it at that.

As for nuking while grinding, it's not worth the MP or cast time. On average, I get resisted about 60% of the time, and when my nukes do land, I usually get 0 sp.

What they are probably going to do, is hide the play by play sp reports, so when you land an attack, you wont know if you got sp for it or not. I've been in battles where I'll hot for 70 dmg and get 0sp, then hit for 50 dmg and get 30 sp. In other words, they're gonna HIDE the RANDOMNESS of sp gains. At the end of battles, I'll get a total sp and xp reward. I wont know how much of that sp is from darts, nukes, buff, or cures. I will be keeping an eye on it, as well as the sp progresion of my melee partners.



#10 Nov 19 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ponderosa wrote:
I'm a conjurer, so SP gains in battle can be pretty awefull sometimes.

If I'm the only healer in party, I usually end up spamming cure and sacrifice, and getting the occasional dart in there. SP cab vary from 20 - 400 ish, with the average around 200.

If there are 2 or more healers in the party, well lets just save the SP sucks, and leave it at that.

As for nuking while grinding, it's not worth the MP or cast time. On average, I get resisted about 60% of the time, and when my nukes do land, I usually get 0 sp.

What they are probably going to do, is hide the play by play sp reports, so when you land an attack, you wont know if you got sp for it or not. I've been in battles where I'll hot for 70 dmg and get 0sp, then hit for 50 dmg and get 30 sp. In other words, they're gonna HIDE the RANDOMNESS of sp gains. At the end of battles, I'll get a total sp and xp reward. I wont know how much of that sp is from darts, nukes, buff, or cures. I will be keeping an eye on it, as well as the sp progresion of my melee partners.


You have absolutely no clue if they're going to hide the SP gains during combat or not. Why don't we wait the grueling 5 days before jumping to conclusions.
#11 Nov 19 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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This sounds like a a nice quick fix and hope it works as intended. On it's face it doesn't sound like a earth shattering game changing patch, but it might be pretty substantial in practice.

28THM/20CON here, and I'm not ashamed to admit that most of my SP comes from heal sniping. It's an art form to know the mob you are fighting and time your heal to go off the instant their AoE attack pops off. Don't hate the player, hate SE.....It sucks that party play with multiple healers becomes a competition for the finite pool of healing SP. It's not the collaborative team based experience partying should be.

Unfortunately, right now there are limited alternatives. In large party settings you are typically fighting mobs that are 10, 15, 20 levels above your rank. The mobs resistance is scaled accordingly, and it's tough to land any debuffs / nukes / PD/SD consistently. Hopefully this patch will change all of that so that the classic RDM (debuffs) and BLM (nukes) style of gameplay can return. I don't want to be a healbot, hopefully this patch will help me get decent SP by playing the game the way I want to play it.

I wonder how much faster mobs will be dying now that people miss less. When my <Absorb EVA> spell hits an Eft, it knocks about 30 seconds off the fight...

Edit: lot's of spelling errors


Edited, Nov 19th 2010 9:32am by thejones
#12 Nov 19 2010 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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As an archer, I'm glad to see that they are addressing accuracy. If you don't hit, you don't get SP. I can't wait to see how this patch pans out.
#13 Nov 19 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Ponderosa wrote:
I'm a conjurer, so SP gains in battle can be pretty awefull sometimes.

If I'm the only healer in party, I usually end up spamming cure and sacrifice, and getting the occasional dart in there. SP cab vary from 20 - 400 ish, with the average around 200.

If there are 2 or more healers in the party, well lets just save the SP sucks, and leave it at that.

As for nuking while grinding, it's not worth the MP or cast time. On average, I get resisted about 60% of the time, and when my nukes do land, I usually get 0 sp.

What they are probably going to do, is hide the play by play sp reports, so when you land an attack, you wont know if you got sp for it or not. I've been in battles where I'll hot for 70 dmg and get 0sp, then hit for 50 dmg and get 30 sp. In other words, they're gonna HIDE the RANDOMNESS of sp gains. At the end of battles, I'll get a total sp and xp reward. I wont know how much of that sp is from darts, nukes, buff, or cures. I will be keeping an eye on it, as well as the sp progresion of my melee partners.


You have absolutely no clue if they're going to hide the SP gains during combat or not. Why don't we wait the grueling 5 days before jumping to conclusions.


Maybe it's all been entirely by chance but from what I understand although you see SP go up in bits and pieces during a fight it's really only awarded at the end of a fight because you can only rank up after an enemy dies, so although you're visually seeing it go up during a battle, it's all chunked till the end anyway? Or can you level up mid fight? It's never happened to me, or anyone near me, but it stands to chance that it may just be chance itself that has made it that way for me.

There are two possibilities, A. SP is only awarded 'bundled' at the end of a battle, and the mid-battle text is just helping to show you how things are progressing, and B. they made it so "Rank/Level Ups" are 'queued' and don't activate until you are out of combat. The last of those two systems is cumbersome and it would be a bit silly to force the game to do that, so I'd bet my money on A, in which case, the back end already works the way the update is outlining, so they must be talking about the front-end display to the user. This of course is all nonsense if you can currently level up mid-fight so someone correct me.

Either way it sounds like they're removing the incessant messages, which is perfectly fine to me, as long as the SP number is evened out over the whole party, performance based SP gains are obnoxious, it's like the entire game is one big campaign battle - and people in campaign spend most of their time doing absolutely nothing that benefits the battle as a whole in order to try to get the most exp possible. This is what I hope they are fixing.
#14 Nov 19 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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I like everything I see except...where is the enmity adjustment for Gladiator and for damage in general?
Don't get me wrong...I don't have problem holding hate...I only have problems holding hate if others are spamming their **** right from second one...which is the case in pretty much all grind PTs later on...and thats just annoying...ppl NOT wearing Plate or at least Chain equip should get hit for way more than atm...so they are encouraged to "not grab hate"...ppl wearing leather or cloth getting hit for like 100dmg more than me is just stupid-_-
#15 Nov 19 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, people's play style in this game is kinda like "soloing in a party". I'm always seeing dps people run into the mobs before the tank has had a change to get some hate built up, or archers standing way out of heal range. And other party mebers hardly ever peel adds off casters and such. It's like they have a "I want SP, I don't care about the other party members" attitude.
#16 Nov 19 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:


Either way it sounds like they're removing the incessant messages, which is perfectly fine to me, as long as the SP number is evened out over the whole party, performance based SP gains are obnoxious, it's like the entire game is one big campaign battle - and people in campaign spend most of their time doing absolutely nothing that benefits the battle as a whole in order to try to get the most exp possible. This is what I hope they are fixing.


Excellent analogy. A lot of people (myself vitriolic'ly included) having been saying the same thing since day one. The game doesn't support team play as is. It fosters for the most part a "every man for himself mindset".

I hope this get straightened out and make it less complicated.
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#17 Nov 19 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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As a pugilist, I'm very happy with Featherfoot is going to get adjusted.
Until now, featherfoot was useless skill in battle. After this update, I would be able to use
Haymaker and Jarringstrike more often in battles.
#18 Nov 19 2010 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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ilwhana wrote:
As a pugilist, I'm very happy with Featherfoot is going to get adjusted.
Until now, featherfoot was useless skill in battle. After this update, I would be able to use
Haymaker and Jarringstrike more often in battles.


I never considered featherfoot useless by a long shot. It didn't garuntee that you would evade an attack while you had it active but it seemed to have increased your evasion nonetheless. Giving it the time boost from 15 to 30 is very nice though. I like to start a fight with it up and usually by the time I get featherfoot and blindside up and in position for the blindside first attack a good 4-5 of the seconds of featherfoot has already passed.
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#19 Nov 19 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Shezard wrote:
I like everything I see except...where is the enmity adjustment for Gladiator and for damage in general?
Don't get me wrong...I don't have problem holding hate...I only have problems holding hate if others are spamming their sh*t right from second one...which is the case in pretty much all grind PTs later on...and thats just annoying...ppl NOT wearing Plate or at least Chain equip should get hit for way more than atm...so they are encouraged to "not grab hate"...ppl wearing leather or cloth getting hit for like 100dmg more than me is just stupid-_-


You're confused, I think you're looking for World of Warcraft - and no I'm not purposefully trying to be belligerent or a tool - but, do not ever expect to hold hate at the start of a fight if everyone else opens by spamming, just as in Final Fantasy XI (and any MMO that requires higher brain function) threat management is a core mechanic, and not one that is entirely up to the tank.

Don't worry, once the content becomes difficult enough, people will start getting crushed for pulling threat when they're not prepared, in WoW if you pull threat it's the tanks fault, if you die its the healers fault (barring if you stepped in the fire/acid/unholyblight/waffleiron) hopefully that is something we never have to experience in FFXIV, and if you mindlessly pull threat, you'll know it's your own fault. "I can open the fight with Souleater SA Spinning Slash , amirite?"

Also, 100 damage is quite a bit in this game (At lower levels anyways), it would honestly be obnoxious if the damage discrepancy was too big, because we know that gap will increase as we level up, and there's nothing more obnoxious in my opinion, than the uninspired 'Hard as a rock or squishy as playdough' approach that generally means if at any point you're not a tank and you're hit by anything you're instantly vaporized. I'm a tank, I tanked in WoW, I've tanked in FFXI, FFXIV and many other games, and although it is empowering to always be in control of aggro/threat, it's nice to realize it's because you're actually good at what you do, not that your class has 3 taunts and couldn't loose threat if you tried - it's also nice that if you do loose threat, at least on an everyday enemy, that your friends don't instantly die.

I guess in closing, I have to ask - what rank Gladiator are you? If you've got the marks try buying heavy slash, before purchasing that ability keeping threat could be frustrating, after that - if you pair heavy slash with provoke and guard/boon + phalanx, I've found it fairly easy to hold aggro even when my partymates decide to go balls-to-the-walls.
#20 Nov 19 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder if the JP explanation for SP changes is clearer?
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#21 Nov 19 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Shield sp can I have it they really need to fix that unbalance....
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#22 Nov 19 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
I wonder if the JP explanation for SP changes is clearer?


Hopefully we'll know soon... Elmer? (or others)
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#23 Nov 19 2010 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
I wonder if the JP explanation for SP changes is clearer?


Hopefully we'll know soon... Elmer? (or others)


Taken from Original Japanese Update Notice:
The Lodestone JP wrote:
バトルにおける修錬値の取得について 
 
バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます。 それによりパーティメンバーのクラスによる取得修錬値の偏りが少なくなります。 また取得方法が変更されるのに伴い、 全体的な修錬値の取得量も多くなるよう調整され、 少人数のパーティでも成長しやすくなります。


This seems to be the most important part, it also seems to be a bit more clear and precise, translated it myself, though any other Japanese speakers feel free to cross-check as mine is a bit rusty.

Regarding the acquisition of skill points in battle, though they are currently acquired by action, when the enemy is defeated party members will now acquire identical skill points.

Important Words:
経験 | Keiken | Experience
同様 | Douyou | Identical/Same/Equal

Keiken-chi to douyou ni teki o ******** toki ni patiimenba(party members) ga shutoku dekiru you henko saremasu.

Lit.
Keiken-chi to
The experience point value

douyou ni
is identical

teki o ******** toki ni
the time of the enemy's defeat

patiimenba(party members) ga shutoku dekiru you henko saremasu.
party members will be able to gain


Edited, Nov 19th 2010 8:01am by RamseySylph
#24 Nov 19 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
I guess in closing, I have to ask - what rank Gladiator are you? If you've got the marks try buying heavy slash, before purchasing that ability keeping threat could be frustrating, after that - if you pair heavy slash with provoke and guard/boon + phalanx, I've found it fairly easy to hold aggro even when my partymates decide to go balls-to-the-walls.

And balls to the walls I go. You've been doing great since you got Heavy Slash. I don't think I could even push more damage if I wanted to. And I was what, 4 ranks above you, too?

RamseySylph wrote:
Maybe it's all been entirely by chance but from what I understand although you see SP go up in bits and pieces during a fight it's really only awarded at the end of a fight because you can only rank up after an enemy dies, so although you're visually seeing it go up during a battle, it's all chunked till the end anyway?

Correct. I would have told you a long time ago if I knew you didn't know that; the SP "gain" at the end of the fight is just the tally of all your actions during the fight, and if you die and hit return, or run away, you don't get the SP you "saw" yourself gain earlier in the fight. I suppose it's to prevent the "rush a high level mob, hit it until you die, repeat" tactic.

Ipwnrice wrote:
I never considered featherfoot useless by a long shot. It didn't garuntee that you would evade an attack while you had it active but it seemed to have increased your evasion nonetheless. Giving it the time boost from 15 to 30 is very nice though. I like to start a fight with it up and usually by the time I get featherfoot and blindside up and in position for the blindside first attack a good 4-5 of the seconds of featherfoot has already passed.

I agree with Ipwnrice. Featherfoot was already great, and it was a great enmity tool too. I'm happy about the duration and effect increase (who doesn't like buffs!), I'm more worried about losing the +infinite enmity associated with it.
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#25 Nov 19 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This seems to be the most important part, it also seems to be a bit more clear and precise, translated it myself, though any other Japanese speakers feel free to cross-check as mine is a bit rusty.


Thanks man, now if we can get the FR and GR translations too.. perfect!
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#26 Nov 19 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Docent42 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Maybe it's all been entirely by chance but from what I understand although you see SP go up in bits and pieces during a fight it's really only awarded at the end of a fight because you can only rank up after an enemy dies, so although you're visually seeing it go up during a battle, it's all chunked till the end anyway?

Correct. I would have told you a long time ago if I knew you didn't know that; the SP "gain" at the end of the fight is just the tally of all your actions during the fight, and if you die and hit return, or run away, you don't get the SP you "saw" yourself gain earlier in the fight. I suppose it's to prevent the "rush a high level mob, hit it until you die, repeat" tactic.


Just a case of me covering my own *** to prevent the edge case of me being downright incorrect and getting flamed because I was hallucinating something that wasn't really the case. Smiley: sly I was pretty sure it was all processed at the end, now I'm 100% sure, which means unless they're just repeating something that's already been implemented (which they've done but only on UI-related topics) this update will mean we just see it all at the end.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 8:05am by RamseySylph
#27 Nov 19 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Thanks man, now if we can get the FR and GR translations too.. perfect!

Your wish is my command...
French Lodestone wrote:
Tout comme les points d’expérience, les points de compétence seront dorénavant obtenus au moment où l’ennemi sera vaincu. De cette façon, il ne devrait plus y avoir de déséquilibre entre les montants de points obtenus par les membres de l’équipe. D’autre part, le nombre de points de compétence gagné sera revu à la hausse pour faciliter la progression du personnage, même en combattant dans une équipe de taille réduite.

"Just as Experience Points, Skill Points will now be rewarded at the moment the enemy is defeated. This way, there should no longer be a discrepancy between the amount earned by different members of the team. Also, the amount of skill points earned will be increased to facilitate the character progression even when fighting in smaller groups."

Nothing about forcing an even split, although it's implied that there won't be issues anymore. One can hope...

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 11:06am by Docent42
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#28 Nov 19 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Regarding the acquisition of skill points in battle, though they are currently acquired by action, [after the update] when the enemy is defeated party members will acquire identical skill points.


!

Nice work, thanks for taking the time to translate that. If this is accurate, this patch is a major game changer. Looks like I won't waste my time SP grinding over the next few days until the patch is implemented.
#29 Nov 19 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Docent42 wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Thanks man, now if we can get the FR and GR translations too.. perfect!

Your wish is my command...
French Lodestone wrote:
Tout comme les points d’expérience, les points de compétence seront dorénavant obtenus au moment où l’ennemi sera vaincu. De cette façon, il ne devrait plus y avoir de déséquilibre entre les montants de points obtenus par les membres de l’équipe. D’autre part, le nombre de points de compétence gagné sera revu à la hausse pour faciliter la progression du personnage, même en combattant dans une équipe de taille réduite.

"Just as Experience Points, Skill Points will now be rewarded at the moment the enemy is defeated. This way, there should no longer be a discrepancy between the amount earned by different members of the team. Also, the amount of skill points earned will be increased to facilitate the character progression even when fighting in smaller groups."

Nothing about forcing an even split, although it's implied that there won't be issues anymore. One can hope...

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 11:06am by Docent42


Wouldn't il ne devrait plus y avoir de déséquilibre entre les montants de points translate as "there should not be any imbalance in the amount of points" which is a little more clear/less vague than the English "discrepancies in the amount of skill points awarded to party members have been reduced."

When I read your translation I wondered if the community teams aren't playing the telephone game (I.E. the French/German translators translate from the English - not the Japanese.) But reading through it again, and dissecting the French words, it seems to be a bit more clear stating that "there will no longer be an imbalance" which is closer to the Japanese "party members will gain identical skill points" even if it's not quite as blunt.

It seems like the English translators are often so careful to not miss-translate something that they often err on the side of being overly vague, when the Japanese is quite clear.
#30 Nov 19 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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so the random SP gain has been removed? That's what I understand, you get a fixed amount of points after you defeat an enemy?
Please explain.
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#31 Nov 19 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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I think the English translators didn't realize we already gain the skill points at the end of battle. I doubt that's what the Japanese text implies, since it doesn't really make sense. The french translation sounds more accurate (thanks for that btw!).

If I could change the lodestone language to german I'd take a shot at it, but it seems to be stuck on English.
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#32 Nov 19 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Wouldn't "il ne devrait plus y avoir de déséquilibre entre les montants de points" translate as "there should not be any imbalance in the amount of points" which is a little more clear/less vague than the English "discrepancies in the amount of skill points awarded to party members have been reduced."

Yeah, that's why I said "there should no longer be a discrepancy". I'm pretty sure imbalance and discrepancy is interchangeable in this situation? (and I wasn't sure how to say "déséquilibre" in english. Imbalance is right, it's just not the first word that came to me)

It's weird because the french message says that the issue shouldn't occur anymore. The english says the issue should be toned down, and the japanese says it should be gone. French and Japanese versions seem more in-line on that point, so I doubt the translators actually translate english > french. (Pretty sure they all go Source Text > Localized) That's how we do it in the two game companies I work(ed) for.

Hyanmen wrote:
If I could change the lodestone language to german I'd take a shot at it, but it seems to be stuck on English.

Well, if you offer so kindly:
German Lodestone wrote:
Im Kampf seinen Routinewert zu erhöhen wird ab nun genauso funktionieren, wie die Art, zu Erfahrungspunkten zu kommen: duch den Sieg über einen Gegner. Das bedeutet für den Gruppenkampf, dass der Routinewert nicht mehr einseitig und unproportional für einige Gruppenmitglieder ansteigen kann. Damit einhergehend wird aber auch die Menge an Routinepunkten erhöht, die man für den Sieg über die verschiedenen Monster bekommt, sodass auch kleine Gruppen nicht im Nachteil sind.


Edited, Nov 19th 2010 11:23am by Docent42
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#33 Nov 19 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Regarding the acquisition of skill points in battle, though they are currently acquired by action, when the enemy is defeated party members will now acquire identical skill points.


Pure speculation, but here's how I'm hoping it goes down:

Base SP gain for mob you are fightning = 100sp

Party of 4 people:
CON earns the group 100 SP over the course of the fight
PUG1 earns the group 400 SP over the course of the fight
GLAD earns the group 400 SP over the course of the fight
PUG2 earns the group 300 SP over the course of the fight
Total SP From Battle: 1200

Divided by 4 (number of players in party): 300

Adding in the Base SP for the mob itself, everyone in the group would gain 400SP for that mob.

Doing it this way would also help prevent discourage people from soaking SP while not doing much. You'll want your party to be optimal.

The only part where this would get confusing for me on how they could handle it is shield skill.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 9:22am by JaduFenrir
#34 Nov 19 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
I think the English translators didn't realize we already gain the skill points at the end of battle. I doubt that's what the Japanese text implies, since it doesn't really make sense. The french translation sounds more accurate (thanks for that btw!).

If I could change the lodestone language to german I'd take a shot at it, but it seems to be stuck on English.


There is nothing in the Japanese about acquiring skill points at the end of battle, either the English translators assume we are idiots, or they don't actually play the game. Smiley: dubious

Docent42 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Wouldn't "il ne devrait plus y avoir de déséquilibre entre les montants de points" translate as "there should not be any imbalance in the amount of points" which is a little more clear/less vague than the English "discrepancies in the amount of skill points awarded to party members have been reduced."

Yeah, that's why I said "there should no longer be a discrepancy". I'm pretty sure imbalance and discrepancy is interchangeable in this situation? (and I wasn't sure how to say "déséquilibre" in english. Imbalance is right, it's just not the first word that came to me)

It's weird because the french message says that the issue shouldn't occur anymore. The english says the issue should be toned down, and the japanese says it should be gone. French and Japanese versions seem more in-line on that point, so I doubt the translators actually translate english > french. (Pretty sure they all go Source Text > Localized) That's how we do it in the two game companies I work(ed) for.


It would be horrible if they did, which is why I retracted my thought after I took a second to look at the French, when I was reading what you wrote "Should no longer be a discrepancy" just seemed so unsure of whether or not there would be one, whereas the Japanese seems to explicitly state it. It seems the French translators are a bit more ballsy than the English, but still not willing to outright make a definitive statement; I.E. this is how it will be, there will be no difference, that being said it's also possible my Japanese is awful, but the sentence was pretty simple, I don't think it's being unclear at all.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 8:25am by RamseySylph
#35 Nov 19 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Geffe the Meaningless wrote:
As an archer, I'm glad to see that they are addressing accuracy. If you don't hit, you don't get SP. I can't wait to see how this patch pans out.


some other posts are thinking it may not longer matter how many times you hit to get your sp now, but if sp is still going to be randoms off of hits then the accuracy increase won't really help gain more sp per mob, just faster mob kills <it will still take the same # of hits to kill a mob>.
but i agree, i cannot wait to see how the patch actually works.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 8:25am by gerwenscalebane
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#36 Nov 19 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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when the enemy is defeated party members will now acquire identical skill points.


I think they emphasized the wrong part of the text. The change is not "party members now acquire skill points when the enemy is defeated" but "party members now acquire identical skill points."
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#37 Nov 19 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
It seems the French translators are a bit more ballsy than the English, but still not willing to outright make a definitive statement; I.E. this is how it will be, there will be no difference, that being said it's also possible my Japanese is awful, but the sentence was pretty simple, I don't think it's being unclear at all.

Typical, though. The french translators don't touch the code or formulas, so can only promise that it SHOULD work -- assuming the Japanese developers deliver. They're covering themselves in case fans become angry because the update notes promised something and that wasn't what the devs had in mind?

English translators might be overly vague because of how used they are to getting chewed out when they mistranslate?
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#38 Nov 19 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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JaduFenrir wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Regarding the acquisition of skill points in battle, though they are currently acquired by action, when the enemy is defeated party members will now acquire identical skill points.


Pure speculation, but here's how I'm hoping it goes down:

Base SP gain for mob you are fightning = 100sp

Party of 4 people:
CON earns the group 100 SP over the course of the fight
PUG1 earns the group 400 SP over the course of the fight
GLAD earns the group 400 SP over the course of the fight
PUG2 earns the group 300 SP over the course of the fight
Total SP From Battle: 1200

Divided by 4 (number of players in party): 300

Adding in the Base SP for the mob itself, everyone in the group would gain 400SP for that mob.

Doing it this way would also help prevent discourage people from soaking SP while not doing much. You'll want your party to be optimal.

The only part where this would get confusing for me on how they could handle it is shield skill.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 9:22am by JaduFenrir


Fairly certain you're correct, this is what I was thinking before I read the Japanese and it goes on to say...

それによりパーティメンバーのクラスによる取得修錬値の偏りが少なくなります。
Sore wa, niyori paatimenbaa no kurasu niyoru shutoku shuuren-chi no katayori ga sukunaku narimasu.

As such, there will be less bias in the amount of skill points generated by party members' classes.

The first sentence explicitly states SP gains at the end of the fight will be identical across the party, the second sentence talks about class contributions being less biased. So I guess what this means is, unlike FFXI's EXP system, if you have AFKers or people not pulling their weight, you'll get less SP at the end of a fight because they're not contributing to the SP pool. This also means it's more beneficial for casters to party now, unless they completely even out the bias, meaning melee will still solo faster.

It's an interesting approach, it still seems like trying to take a good deal of damage and healing it up will be effective given this system, which I don't like at all, but if they can make it so that you actually get a decent boost from fighting things that will hurt you while you are trying your best to fight them, I might be okay with it.

Docent42 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
It seems the French translators are a bit more ballsy than the English, but still not willing to outright make a definitive statement; I.E. this is how it will be, there will be no difference, that being said it's also possible my Japanese is awful, but the sentence was pretty simple, I don't think it's being unclear at all.

Typical, though. The french translators don't touch the code or formulas, so can only promise that it SHOULD work -- assuming the Japanese developers deliver. They're covering themselves in case fans become angry because the update notes promised something and that wasn't what the devs had in mind?

English translators might be overly vague because of how used they are to getting chewed out when they mistranslate?


This is all true, and what I was thinking as well. I guess my preference is - be clear, and occasionally be wrong, then you just get the fire when you're wrong in a huge jet, as opposed to a slow burn of seething irritation whether you translate wrong or right. The constant forum jitters of "What the **** do you mean "discrepancies are in the process of being reduced when the moon phase is blue, possibly." ? "

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 8:35am by RamseySylph
#39 Nov 19 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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P.S. I posted the german translated text above (google-translated it for fun, it's barely readable) if anyone wants to take a crack at it.

I'll repost it for the lazy people ;P

German Lodestone wrote:
Im Kampf seinen Routinewert zu erhöhen wird ab nun genauso funktionieren, wie die Art, zu Erfahrungspunkten zu kommen: duch den Sieg über einen Gegner. Das bedeutet für den Gruppenkampf, dass der Routinewert nicht mehr einseitig und unproportional für einige Gruppenmitglieder ansteigen kann. Damit einhergehend wird aber auch die Menge an Routinepunkten erhöht, die man für den Sieg über die verschiedenen Monster bekommt, sodass auch kleine Gruppen nicht im Nachteil sind.
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#40 Nov 19 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Docent42 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
It seems the French translators are a bit more ballsy than the English, but still not willing to outright make a definitive statement; I.E. this is how it will be, there will be no difference, that being said it's also possible my Japanese is awful, but the sentence was pretty simple, I don't think it's being unclear at all.

Typical, though. The french translators don't touch the code or formulas, so can only promise that it SHOULD work -- assuming the Japanese developers deliver. They're covering themselves in case fans become angry because the update notes promised something and that wasn't what the devs had in mind?

English translators might be overly vague because of how used they are to getting chewed out when they mistranslate?

RamseySylph wrote:

This is all true, and what I was thinking as well. I guess my preference is - be clear, and occasionally be wrong, then you just get the fire when you're wrong in a huge jet, as opposed to a slow burn of seething irritation whether you translate wrong or right. The constant forum jitters of "What the **** do you mean "discrepancies are in the process of being reduced when the moon phase is blue, possibly." ? "

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 8:35am by RamseySylph


I agree with you on that. I understand that mistranslating is annoying. But the constant vagueness is even more of a pain to deal with, at least for me.
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#41 Nov 19 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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If they really fix the sp in this way, it will be a major improvement IMO.

Rate ups for the translators.

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#42 Nov 19 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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I hope this balancing act is as good as it possibly, maybe sounds like it could be. I am also really excited for SP per rank reductions. I'd love to get all my battle classes raised.

Also my team is blowing itself up at work today... I wish I was at home playing FFXIV.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 11:31am by Olorinus
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#43 Nov 19 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Taken from Original Japanese Update Notice:
The Lodestone JP wrote:
バトルにおける修錬値の取得について 
 
バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます。 それによりパーティメンバーのクラスによる取得修錬値の偏りが少なくなります。 また取得方法が変更されるのに伴い、 全体的な修錬値の取得量も多くなるよう調整され、 少人数のパーティでも成長しやすくなります。


This seems to be the most important part, it also seems to be a bit more clear and precise, translated it myself, though any other Japanese speakers feel free to cross-check as mine is a bit rusty.

Regarding the acquisition of skill points in battle, though they are currently acquired by action, when the enemy is defeated party members will now acquire identical skill points.



My Japanese is not perfect either, but I took the 経験値と同様 to mean, "the same as experience". Which is to say, in the same way we get experience at the end of the battle, now we will also get skill points only at the end of the battle.

This does not imply everyone gets the same number of skill points. The next sentence also states, as mentioned by another poster, that the difference (bias) between skill points gained by different classes has been made smaller (but not 0).
#44 Nov 19 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:


They also said the increase in accuracy will lead to more SP. So I think they're implementing both: action based SP and kill based SP. This really does benefit both soloers (still get good SP for long kills) and partiers (encourages fast kills).

I'm excited. :)


If this is the case, then I too am very excited... keeps solo play AND party play benefits!
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#45 Nov 19 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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jhren wrote:
Quote:

Taken from Original Japanese Update Notice:
The Lodestone JP wrote:
バトルにおける修錬値の取得について 
 
バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます。 それによりパーティメンバーのクラスによる取得修錬値の偏りが少なくなります。 また取得方法が変更されるのに伴い、 全体的な修錬値の取得量も多くなるよう調整され、 少人数のパーティでも成長しやすくなります。


This seems to be the most important part, it also seems to be a bit more clear and precise, translated it myself, though any other Japanese speakers feel free to cross-check as mine is a bit rusty.

Regarding the acquisition of skill points in battle, though they are currently acquired by action, when the enemy is defeated party members will now acquire identical skill points.



My Japanese is not perfect either, but I took the 経験値と同様 to mean, "the same as experience". Which is to say, in the same way we get experience at the end of the battle, now we will also get skill points only at the end of the battle.

This does not imply everyone gets the same number of skill points. The next sentence also states, as mentioned by another poster, that the difference (bias) between skill points gained by different classes has been made smaller (but not 0).
You're much closer with this.

The entire sentence is "バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます," which means "the method for gaining skill points during battle will be changed from gains by action to each party member making gains upon enemies being defeated, the same as experience points." 同様に means "in the same way." So basically the official English "Skill points earned in battle are now awarded after an enemy is defeated" is accurate and there is no translation issue here.
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#46 Nov 19 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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TheMoreYouKnow wrote:
jhren wrote:
Quote:

Taken from Original Japanese Update Notice:
The Lodestone JP wrote:
バトルにおける修錬値の取得について 
 
バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます。 それによりパーティメンバーのクラスによる取得修錬値の偏りが少なくなります。 また取得方法が変更されるのに伴い、 全体的な修錬値の取得量も多くなるよう調整され、 少人数のパーティでも成長しやすくなります。


This seems to be the most important part, it also seems to be a bit more clear and precise, translated it myself, though any other Japanese speakers feel free to cross-check as mine is a bit rusty.

Regarding the acquisition of skill points in battle, though they are currently acquired by action, when the enemy is defeated party members will now acquire identical skill points.



My Japanese is not perfect either, but I took the 経験値と同様 to mean, "the same as experience". Which is to say, in the same way we get experience at the end of the battle, now we will also get skill points only at the end of the battle.

This does not imply everyone gets the same number of skill points. The next sentence also states, as mentioned by another poster, that the difference (bias) between skill points gained by different classes has been made smaller (but not 0).
You're much closer with this.

The entire sentence is "バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます," which means "the method for gaining skill points during battle will be changed from gains by action to each party member making gains upon enemies being defeated, the same as experience points." 同様に means "in the same way." So basically the official English "Skill points earned in battle are now awarded after an enemy is defeated" is accurate and there is no translation issue here.


With that kind of re-clarification, it really does sound like we will not see the skill points show up on each swing anymore when that goes in.
#47 Nov 19 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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TheMoreYouKnow wrote:

You're much closer with this.

The entire sentence is "バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます," which means "the method for gaining skill points during battle will be changed from gains by action to each party member making gains upon enemies being defeated, the same as experience points." 同様に means "in the same way." So basically the official English "Skill points earned in battle are now awarded after an enemy is defeated" is accurate and there is no translation issue here.


Thank you checking for our Japanese. Now the only unfortunate part is both the original Japanese and the other translations are ambiguous as to what will affect our skill gain post-patch.

I guess we'll have some fun trying to figure that out next week.

#48 Nov 19 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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TheMoreYouKnow wrote:
jhren wrote:
Quote:

Taken from Original Japanese Update Notice:
The Lodestone JP wrote:
バトルにおける修錬値の取得について 
 
バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます。 それによりパーティメンバーのクラスによる取得修錬値の偏りが少なくなります。 また取得方法が変更されるのに伴い、 全体的な修錬値の取得量も多くなるよう調整され、 少人数のパーティでも成長しやすくなります。


This seems to be the most important part, it also seems to be a bit more clear and precise, translated it myself, though any other Japanese speakers feel free to cross-check as mine is a bit rusty.

Regarding the acquisition of skill points in battle, though they are currently acquired by action, when the enemy is defeated party members will now acquire identical skill points.



My Japanese is not perfect either, but I took the 経験値と同様 to mean, "the same as experience". Which is to say, in the same way we get experience at the end of the battle, now we will also get skill points only at the end of the battle.

This does not imply everyone gets the same number of skill points. The next sentence also states, as mentioned by another poster, that the difference (bias) between skill points gained by different classes has been made smaller (but not 0).
You're much closer with this.

The entire sentence is "バトルにおいての修錬値の取得方法が、 行動による取得から、 経験値と同様に敵を倒したときにパーティメンバーが取得できるよう変更されます," which means "the method for gaining skill points during battle will be changed from gains by action to each party member making gains upon enemies being defeated, the same as experience points." 同様に means "in the same way." So basically the official English "Skill points earned in battle are now awarded after an enemy is defeated" is accurate and there is no translation issue here.


Doh! Thanks for the correction, I guess my Japanese was rustier than I thought - should've caught that, in the same way as EXP, not the same amount. Well then, let's hope all of the vagueness is just overly-so and that we finally get honest to the gods even across the board party SP gains or I will be sorely disappointed.
#49 Nov 19 2010 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Docent42 wrote:

[quote=German Lodestone]Im Kampf seinen Routinewert zu erhöhen wird ab nun genauso funktionieren, wie die Art, zu Erfahrungspunkten zu kommen: duch den Sieg über einen Gegner. Das bedeutet für den Gruppenkampf, dass der Routinewert nicht mehr einseitig und unproportional für einige Gruppenmitglieder ansteigen kann. Damit einhergehend wird aber auch die Menge an Routinepunkten erhöht, die man für den Sieg über die verschiedenen Monster bekommt, sodass auch kleine Gruppen nicht im Nachteil sind.


"Soldiers of the Southeast Front: Since early this morning the German people are at war with the Belgrade Government of intrigue. We shall only lay down arms when this band of ruffians has been definitely and most emphatically eliminated, and the last Briton has left this part of the European Continent. These misled people realize that they must thank Britain for this situation, they must thank England, the greatest warmonger of all time. The German people can enter into this new struggle with the inner satisfaction that its leaders have done everything to bring about a peaceful settlement. We pray to God that He may lead our soldiers on the path and bless them as hitherto."


...huh.
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#50 Nov 19 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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Talk about mind going blank after reading a post .Smiley: laugh
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#51 Nov 21 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm just excited to see them working on this. I can only hope they fix the problems with Sentinel SP while they're at it.
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