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What is with Conjurors crying about people taking damage?!?Follow

#1 Nov 19 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I didnt roll an archer to stand in ae's and take damage and die for somene elses supposed SP gain. did SE really F up the design that bad or are conj's just being ridiculous?
#2 Nov 19 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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bad design.
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#3 Nov 19 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Plus stupid/lazy/bad conjurers.
#4 Nov 19 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not getting what the issue is. If you're out of range and not pulling agro, you're doing it right.

If they're asking you to take damage so the conjurer gets more SP, something is wrong, because conjurers don't usually have issues hitting 500 per mob.

If you're out of range, taking damage and not getting healed, then you're not standing at the right place, or you have to learn to be self-sufficient with your own health.

Can you enlighten us what is the issue at hand?

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 3:16pm by Docent42
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#5 Nov 19 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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im out of ae range as i would expect I should be like i have been in every other MMO as a RANGED damage class. Not taking any dmg nor pulling aggro. apparently im a "selfish" player because im not huddled in the mobs ae like everyone else taking dmg so the conjurors can get more SP too?
#6 Nov 19 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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klepp6761 wrote:
im out of ae range as i would expect I should be like i have been in every other MMO as a RANGED damage class. Not taking any dmg nor pulling aggro. apparently im a "selfish" player because im not huddled in the mobs ae like everyone else taking dmg so the conjurors can get more SP too?


Thats bad conjurers
#7 Nov 19 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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klepp6761 wrote:
im out of ae range as i would expect I should be like i have been in every other MMO as a RANGED damage class. Not taking any dmg nor pulling aggro. apparently im a "selfish" player because im not huddled in the mobs ae like everyone else taking dmg so the conjurors can get more SP too?



Im a conj and I'll tell you right now! play your job well if it means taking no agro or no dmg do it!!
be a RNG fire away and stay alive!!!!

With changes coming and re balance of cure enmity generation I do not want you getting hate!

Something tells me some people are in for a rude awakening, and are going to be forced to play in a more
team like manner. This random spamming and non controlled fights seems to be at an end.


THANK GOODNESS!!

I am dying for some ffxi style strategy in fights not this hack and slash crap.

I missed Boyahda tree days of setting SC's and MB's
tanks managing hate on crabs and what not

I wasn't a fan of TaOU meripo parties of just going crazy. I like action and having fun
but I feel there needs some battle tactics and people being aware to utilize their skills and
fight as a unit.

I am so hoping the patches bring things like this into light, and I am really hoping the NM's require
effort and skill to take down. I don't need a 4 hour fight by any means 30-60 minutes is dandy with me :P
#8 Nov 19 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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now i died standing inside ae and it was my fault for not having enough VIT considering I spent most of my pts on dd stats considering i didnt intend to be taking much dmg in a pt setting. boy am i all wrong eh?
#9 Nov 19 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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If your not following this>>> http://ffxiv.zam.com/Im/Image/159900 ..... then your doing it wrong. Bad conjurer Imo.
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#10 Nov 19 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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klepp6761 wrote:
now i died standing inside ae and it was my fault for not having enough VIT considering I spent most of my pts on dd stats considering i didnt intend to be taking much dmg in a pt setting. boy am i all wrong eh?



Nah just sounds like a bad party that's all sorry to hear it.

I hope things get better once all the patching is done and people start coming back. So many are on the fence right now its hard to tell which way the population will go until nov/dec updates are done.
#11 Nov 19 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
klepp6761 wrote:
now i died standing inside ae and it was my fault for not having enough VIT considering I spent most of my pts on dd stats considering i didnt intend to be taking much dmg in a pt setting. boy am i all wrong eh?



No matter what DoW/DoL class you are, you should always have points invested in VIT (aka your HP). I partied with a CON once who put every single point he had into INT. He couldn't land a spell for crap, and died in one shot almost every time in a PT setting. VIT = HP = Life = Get some.
#12 Nov 19 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
klepp6761 wrote:
now i died standing inside ae and it was my fault for not having enough VIT considering I spent most of my pts on dd stats considering i didnt intend to be taking much dmg in a pt setting. boy am i all wrong eh?



No matter what DoW/DoL class you are, you should always have points invested in VIT (aka your HP). I partied with a CON once who put every single point he had into INT. He couldn't land a spell for crap, and died in one shot almost every time in a PT setting. VIT = HP = Life = Get some.


There's a cap on stats. If you pump everything into one stat, you are pretty much wasting it. I agree with Osarion, you gots to have some VIT.
#13 Nov 19 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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i was almost worried SE created an assbackwards game, i wish my server had more rational people like you. There are very few ppl my lvl to group with and they all think the way I just explained. it makes it hard to play my class the way its supposed to be played. I literally have trouble getting groups because im the guy who wont stand in the ae.
is there any hard evidence that for conjurors to get good sp everyone has to huddle in the ae's so they can ae heal? What if the mob doesnt ae ffs?
#14 Nov 19 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
klepp6761 wrote:
now i died standing inside ae and it was my fault for not having enough VIT considering I spent most of my pts on dd stats considering i didnt intend to be taking much dmg in a pt setting. boy am i all wrong eh?



No matter what DoW/DoL class you are, you should always have points invested in VIT (aka your HP). I partied with a CON once who put every single point he had into INT. He couldn't land a spell for crap, and died in one shot almost every time in a PT setting. VIT = HP = Life = Get some.


where did i say I didnt put anything into vit? I have points into vit, im just not going to invest in it like a tank does when i shouldnt be taking any damage in a group setting. my points belong in dex and str ty
#15 Nov 19 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Geffe the Meaningless wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
klepp6761 wrote:
now i died standing inside ae and it was my fault for not having enough VIT considering I spent most of my pts on dd stats considering i didnt intend to be taking much dmg in a pt setting. boy am i all wrong eh?



No matter what DoW/DoL class you are, you should always have points invested in VIT (aka your HP). I partied with a CON once who put every single point he had into INT. He couldn't land a spell for crap, and died in one shot almost every time in a PT setting. VIT = HP = Life = Get some.


There's a cap on stats. If you pump everything into one stat, you are pretty much wasting it. I agree with Osarion, you gots to have some VIT.


ill fix it right away, vit is more important than dex or str then for a dd class? how much should i have? I have 1400hp @ 45 but i digress.
#16 Nov 19 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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The last I heard, and I could easily be wrong if this has been superceded by new information, but soft cap on stats is (LEVEL x 2)+30 (or 32, I've seen both numbers floated).

So if you're rank 45 in something, your cap would be 120 points. What that equates to as a HP number out of VIT, I'm not sure.

Also, willing to eat hat if somebody knows more current info.

In regards to the "Why the **** am I supposed to huddle with everyone and eat an AOE in the face?", you got me too. The melee and healer types should be grouped up as much as possible, they're supposed to be close. If the conjurors aren't getting enough SP gain because your body isn't in there... well, your body is not going to make a difference.

Unless the entire party is all archers + 1 conjuror. That would suck to be the healer-class and they should probably pick up a bow and help with the pew-pew.

That being said, a little extra VIT if you're not close to cap might be worth switching a few points around for, especially if your server/parties get snooty about tossing a target heal your way. Extra life is always a good thing.

Edited, Nov 19th 2010 4:34pm by jadyness
#17thehellfire, Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 3:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SDounds like bad archer. Im a Con, and Im not casting an AoE heal twice to get your dumb *** that is standing way the f away. Do you not realize the enmity from just one heal? Ya stop bashing the healer and learn to be a team player
#18 Nov 19 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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thehellfire wrote:
SDounds like bad archer. Im a Con, and Im not casting an AoE heal twice to get your dumb *** that is standing way the f away. Do you not realize the enmity from just one heal? Ya stop bashing the healer and learn to be a team player


Apparently you missed the part where he said he isn't taking damage therefore there is no reason for him to be standing in the AoE range. So in conclusion, good archer, no need to cast AoE heal twice since he is taking no damage to begin with. There was no healer bashing until now either, which I will start: Rumor is that Conjurers can't read PASS IT ON!
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#19 Nov 19 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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I think the issue is that healing procs individually for each person. If the tank is the only person taking damage, each time you cure, you only have one chance to get cure SP per cast. If five people are huddled together, however, you have five chances to get SP per cure after an AoE move.

Is this a good system? No, I think it teaches bad fighting habits, as explained above, but when people only care about that 500 SP/fight cap, it leads to some dumb playing. Hehe. It also means that there's usually only two mages per party, which makes it even harder on mages, since party invites are precious.

I'm really hoping the SP changes on the 24th make a big difference to how exp/sp parties behave.
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#20 Nov 19 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I play CON and normally get 2/300 SP. To me, keeping friends alive is more important than 500 cap.
Plus, the less people die, the more you can kill.
I miss XI parties too.
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#21 Nov 20 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Default
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Ridere wrote:
I think the issue is that healing procs individually for each person. If the tank is the only person taking damage, each time you cure, you only have one chance to get cure SP per cast. If five people are huddled together, however, you have five chances to get SP per cure after an AoE move.

Is this a good system? No, I think it teaches bad fighting habits, as explained above, but when people only care about that 500 SP/fight cap, it leads to some dumb playing. Hehe. It also means that there's usually only two mages per party, which makes it even harder on mages, since party invites are precious.

I'm really hoping the SP changes on the 24th make a big difference to how exp/sp parties behave.


i never looked at it this way but if that is the case, how is that fair to the dd classes who can only proc via dmg on 1 mob, what gives conj the right to expel me from the pt or call me selfish since they cant proc off 2-3-4-5 + ppl? Not to mention they can get sp from healing or dmg. Then again this is why most fights conj cap while capping myself is a rarity. oh and the cap @ 45 is 150 something, it isnt completely linear to whomever mentioned the rankx2+32 equation. that worked/s up until like 30something but i digress.

regardless thank most of you for making me feel like im not the only non crazy person that managed to get to higher ranks, just the only non crazy one on my server it seems. xfer's anyone? >.<
#22 Nov 20 2010 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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You're taking an old concept chart of battles that don't exist and trying to apply it to this game. A conjurer cannot heal behind him or at the moment target you for crap. (or anyone else for that matter) Sometimes it is best to just stand somewhat in the group in heal range. If it is conal AOE.. well you're just bad if you stand in it. If it is 360 AoE standing outside may be warranted. I play an archer as well. I see where conj is coming from tho. Also you are losing them possible SP if they can't heal you and in most current camps you are leaving yourself open to aggro outside the group. You can't prove to me that standing close loses you acc either. I have tested this and found it to not be true at all. I actually hit more than most the other archers inside because they are wearing bad gear setups. So the difference... doesn't seem to exist. The cons for standing way out are much more numerous than the pros most the time. So, maybe you should ask yourself "Why do I wanna be a ******* and stand where noone can get to me?" Read it live it love it.. That's right.
#23 Nov 20 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Default
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Look like a case of bad team management...let me guess.. the team leader is either conjurer or and assh@le...

i am a conjurer and the first point of making a party is

1) i will not team up with archer in my 2 party team
2) i will not get archer unless there is a full time tank and a DD who is not an archer..

IMO, as long as the archer can keep his self away from hate and stay far away from the damage zone, i am happy.
trigger happy archer is a bad archer..
since the archer stand far back from me.. i will not ****** bother to turn around, use the already lousy targeting system to cure that one lousy bast*** who cant control him self...even if the targeting systems get better, the archer will not be in my top consideration of healing...

yeah i know i will get bash by fellow conjurer for the stupidity for losing SP... but what the heck... it get worse if the archer are in the damage zone...archer and mage have very thin skin...a toothpick can kill us...



#24 Nov 20 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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I completely agree with the idea of Conjurers taking advantage of party's. I play a conjurer as my main class and party members are usually asking me right away what type of player I am, obviously worried that I could be a terribly selfish player.
#25 Nov 20 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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The real problem that I saw when playing as a conjurer, is that Archers tend to attack before the tank has agro. Next, they tend to stand too far away from the aoe heals. Even though I am standing behind the tank a distance, the archers go out of their way to stay as far away from the healer as they can. I was constantly staring at them and asking myself, if I let them die, will they learn to take one step forward? So the question becomes, as an archer, do you do more damage the more distance away from the mob that you are attacking? If the answer to that question is NO, then the obvious conclusion is that archers need to take the time to step up.
#26 Nov 21 2010 at 3:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I find that one AoE cure is enough to bring the fires of Beelzebub crashing down on top of me, so I try to cast more carefully rather than just spamming Cure over and over. Fact is, until the enmity issue is addressed (or better still, the targeting so we can just cure those who need it) we're stuck with spamming AoE heals in parties and hoping it catches everyone who needs it.

Now if only that annoying casting direction issue was addressed.
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#27 Nov 21 2010 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
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klepp6761 wrote:
im out of ae range as i would expect I should be like i have been in every other MMO as a RANGED damage class. Not taking any dmg nor pulling aggro. apparently im a "selfish" player because im not huddled in the mobs ae like everyone else taking dmg so the conjurors can get more SP too?



Sucky and selfish conjurer in my opinion. Yes it is fair to expect the melee that can take the hits to stand in the AOE.

Archers I classify as squishy and many get one shotted by aoe, so stuipd conjurer for even asking you lol

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:00am by MisterGaribaldi
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#28 Nov 21 2010 at 5:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Publius85 wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
SDounds like bad archer. Im a Con, and Im not casting an AoE heal twice to get your dumb *** that is standing way the f away. Do you not realize the enmity from just one heal? Ya stop bashing the healer and learn to be a team player


Apparently you missed the part where he said he isn't taking damage therefore there is no reason for him to be standing in the AoE range. So in conclusion, good archer, no need to cast AoE heal twice since he is taking no damage to begin with. There was no healer bashing until now either, which I will start: Rumor is that Conjurers can't read PASS IT ON!



They have also in general become extremely lazy and if aoe cure on themselves misses people, well they shouldn;t stand there.

Even given the horrendous targetting, it is still easy enough to target others.

The best is fighting Ixali Fencers for example. Party "Please move back dont stand so close, its aoe will kill you"...Dead conjurer "Well how am i meant to heal you all"

**** I dont know maybe stand back and cast aoe cure on a melee in the pack. For some reason the idea that this has to be cast on yourself has started appearing and it is really bizarre.
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#29 Nov 21 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm a 27 Conj. The reason we tend to target ourselves, is because it allows us to target the mob for debuff/spirit dart, while still being able to cure most people.

Personally, I have macros to target <t> and <me> depending on the situation. I frequently party with 2 archers regularly. I find it quite easy to just cast on the one of the melee's and stand next to the archers. They don't tend to pull hate unless an aggro mob respawns on top of us. And in that case, I am much more comfortable trying to manage their HP and the tank's HP than I am when I'm worried about my own health. I think it was just a whiney conjurer in this(these) case(s).

In the conjurer's defence, I've recently encountered SPing in a mega party (15 people) and I personally hate it. It is impossible for a DPS conj to SP well. Or at least as well as an ACTUAL DPS does. If monsters die too quickly without doling out enough damage, we're the ones that suffer. If you think 3 conjurers(or healing THMs) in a 10-man party is a good idea, we're the ones that suffer. In all three of these instances, I asked to fight harder things (so we could all get those shiny 4-500's). In which case they respond with, but these are dying so fast! This is GREAT SP! I would be lucky to cast a single cure, and if I did, it wasn't maxing my cure potential (Thus missing out on sp, and being a poor use of my MP). I could spam spirit dart for 50 SP a fight if I'm lucky? <No thanks.> <I'm not up for it.> I'm sure they called me a ****** conjurer when I left.

My personal favorite setup is 1-2 gladiators, 2-3 PGL/MRD/LNC, 1-2 ARC, and one other healer.

I also agree completely that the game encourages bad fighting habits. I'm blessed enough to regularly play with a good gladiator who both trusts me and understands our SPing situation as well. If we're fighting crabs(or anything else that doesn't AoE) He'll usually have the other glad provoke something just to pound on him so we can SP better. As long as there is no real danger, and we're managing our MP well enough I think that's the best option. In all reality, its the only way to keep a semi-static party near the same rank. Furthermore when something dies, the next target is already right there.



And for the love of GOD, archers, stand together.

Archer --------- (group) --------- Archer

That kind of setup ****** me the sh*t off. I don't like standing in the monster's AoE any more than you do, and this setup makes it impossible to even target you efficiently, let alone cast.

2 Archers -------- (group)

Is this so much to ask?
In my experience, yes, yes it is.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:53am by TaigaHalak

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:54am by TaigaHalak
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#30 Nov 21 2010 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I totally agree with everything you are saying.

However, I have had such a varied experience at Eft but most parties have been really good and people have listened.
Squishies who cannot survive a hit of AOE even with shell stand at the mobs tail or side but very close to the mob (this includes archers). All other melee stand at the front and take dmg to help the healer get SP - that is a fair trade off and the best we can do.

The thing that really bugs me with archers standing miles away is not that they are not getting healed, as technically they shouldn;t be getting hit. What really bugs, is when they pick up loads of adds then train them over to you. That situation is easily avoided by grouping around the mob not standing miles away.

I have also heard the fight harder mobs argument and it isn;t always possible.

The jump in damage from eft to raptors for example is massive and you dont really want to be fighting them under 35. Eft sadly are the best mob and most efficient. I do agree that 3 healers is overkill but sadly due to afk or mage death it is often necessary. But yes I agree, 2 healers is fine in a circa 10 man party
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#31 Nov 21 2010 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
What really bugs, is when they pick up loads of adds then train them over to you. That situation is easily avoided by grouping around the mob not standing miles away.
As long as archers have an ACC and ATK penalty when attacking targets in melee range, they are simply not able to stand right on a mob. You shouldn't expect them to given the game's current mechanics.

Not picking up adds is a legit concern however, and something archers learn to do (not do) eventually. Part of the benefit of standing away from the fight is that we have a much better perspective on what's going on, and this includes adds. Sooner or later you develop the awareness to move when necessary.

I'll also add here that any good archer realizes he has to be completely self-sufficient in a group, including buffing and healing himself.

If the necessary mechanic of archers standing out of melee range to be effective is really that troublesome then perhaps its worth the time to send some feedback through the Square Enix Support Center - they are really just attempting to play the class as it was designed.
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#32 Nov 21 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
However, I have had such a varied experience at Eft but most parties have been really good and people have listened.
Squishies who cannot survive a hit of AOE even with shell stand at the mobs tail or side but very close to the mob (this includes archers). All other melee stand at the front and take dmg to help the healer get SP - that is a fair trade off and the best we can do.

The thing that really bugs me with archers standing miles away is not that they are not getting healed, as technically they shouldn;t be getting hit. What really bugs, is when they pick up loads of adds then train them over to you. That situation is easily avoided by grouping around the mob not standing miles away.


Interesting...
I've rarely played Ranged DDs (my preference has usually been THFs which are, sadly, absent from this game), but I'm playing an Archer (for my main battle-class) and while I'm not down for the long grinding sessions, I do want to better understand how archers play in FFXIV before I get to the bigger mobs.
Now from previous games, I know that when I do have to stand in the open adds are my primary concern while I'm attacking... one eye on the target, one eye on what's about to target me... because yes, I'm squishy and apparently delicious.
From reading other posts and this one, it also sounds like most players are just using the primary attack and not very many other actions (which, I know, for archers most other actions are add candy anyway and should be used with GREAT care.... stupid curiosity).
I've already picked up that it doesn't seem like Archers are used to pull mobs to the party (like in most other MMOs), but aside from that... you almost make it sound like the tanks just run up to the mob and start wailing away while everyone else assumes formation (be it a good or bad formation).
Is this really the case? Are parties just moving from mob to mob, rather than pulling the mobs to the party? Because to me, if everyone was in a strategic position, then the archer wouldn't be able to train adds to the party (assuming such a strategic position was available).
Or am I not getting something about how parties are running?

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 8:15am by AilysFoxglove
#33 Nov 21 2010 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Timorith wrote:
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
What really bugs, is when they pick up loads of adds then train them over to you. That situation is easily avoided by grouping around the mob not standing miles away.
As long as archers have an ACC and ATK penalty when attacking targets in melee range, they are simply not able to stand right on a mob. You shouldn't expect them to given the game's current mechanics.

Not picking up adds is a legit concern however, and something archers learn to do (not do) eventually. Part of the benefit of standing away from the fight is that we have a much better perspective on what's going on, and this includes adds. Sooner or later you develop the awareness to move when necessary.

I'll also add here that any good archer realizes he has to be completely self-sufficient in a group, including buffing and healing himself.

If the necessary mechanic of archers standing out of melee range to be effective is really that troublesome then perhaps its worth the time to send some feedback through the Square Enix Support Center - they are really just attempting to play the class as it was designed.



So I've tested this before and I've done it again last night. There is no recordable difference in where you stand. The damage is the same. The hit % is virtually the same. A few % tells me nothing other than that particular arrow decided to miss this time. As for damage it was zero difference. Where did you get this information? I don't think enough testing has been done by anyone to fully prove either way but a simple test tells me enough. Any other pattern where I thought I was on to something faded shortly and never returned. I think simply the game isn't complex enough to have that as a feature.
#34 Nov 21 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Default
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Wow your moaning because you take damage?

Welcome to FFXIV where being a DoM means the best way to get SP is via healing, no damage = no heals = no SP

Its called a party, your a team, work together! If you die get some VIT, your going to need it eventually anyway. At the moment DEX and STR are a bit broken anyway.

But if you want stand out the way, gimp the mages then have no-one to heal you and thus no parties and trust me i bet thats going to annoy you alot more than just taking a few HP of damage.


Oh and also when you fight raptors its a great help to ALL for stacking at front,
-Standing at side or back = killer 2000 AoE
-Stand far and get aggro = running around and chance for 2000 AoE

When your in a PT its not all about you, its about the team. If you taking damage doesnt hurt anyone it only benefits the PT and wont hurt your SP.

When SE fix the game then worry about the correct places to stand :)
#35 Nov 21 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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"Now Is this really the case? Are parties just moving from mob to mob, rather than pulling the mobs to the party? Because to me, if everyone was in a strategic position, then the archer wouldn't be able to train adds to the party (assuming such a strategic position was available).
Or am I not getting something about how parties are running?"


That is exactly how parties are working. No one pulls the mob like in XI, instead parties roam around. At Eft these are suually over a small spawn square.

The only luring that goes on is when several eft are close together, it is generally provoked so it moves from its current position.

The spawn area is generally quite small and 4-5 eft appear. If the archers are stood too far from the mob, then it is easy to get agro from 1 or 2 more eft. They do move, admitedly not much, but it can be enough to cause problems.

I will happily make a video of a typical eft hunt so you can see how they work and the roaming tactics most employ



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#36 Nov 21 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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From my experience (rank 30 conj) if an Archer stands up front with the rest of the group, with protect and shell I'm easily able to keep everyone alive. If everyone is alive everyone is also getting sp. One more person to heal is one more change for a healer to get sp too.

Basically I'm asking, "Why not stand up close if the conjurer can keep you alive?" (I don't know much about accuracy/distance for Archers, but I know that Archers in my party have gotten tons of sp even standing close)

That picture of a typical party setup where different classes should stand would be good if you're trying to kill the monsters efficiently, but when grinding for sp I dont think it's necessary at all. It may be a good idea for future missions or NMs where killing a monster might actually be challenging
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#37 Nov 21 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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116 posts
Parsalyn wrote:
The real problem that I saw when playing as a conjurer, is that Archers tend to attack before the tank has agro. Next, they tend to stand too far away from the aoe heals. Even though I am standing behind the tank a distance, the archers go out of their way to stay as far away from the healer as they can. I was constantly staring at them and asking myself, if I let them die, will they learn to take one step forward? So the question becomes, as an archer, do you do more damage the more distance away from the mob that you are attacking? If the answer to that question is NO, then the obvious conclusion is that archers need to take the time to step up.


actually they already said distance and positioning affects accuracy and your telling me that us ranged damage classes should play like a melee damage class? i shoulda rolled a diff class. Last i checkd the tank should be taking dmg, the conj should be healing him while everyone else stands wherever they take the least amount of dmg.

for some reason this everyone thinks the playerpile is the best strategy and no one even tries to play via the normal method. I agree that I shouldnt be taking dmg, as i said.. hence i dont. If i do Its because i wandered to close to the ae and do I grief the conj for letting me die? No, he is busy standing in one spot spamming ae heal because targetting individuals is too difficult.

in the end, it boils down to selfishness over sp which is bad design to begin with. that said, i cant believe people are still tryin to argue this.

I welcome an honest conjuror to submit some data that shows their sp gain with eeryone taking ae dmg, then everyone taking ae dmg minus the archer. then no one but the tank taking dmg and healing him and dd'ing when/if possible.

just curious. It would work in their favor much better if they didnt just dismiss other avenues and actually had some exampls to back up their qq.

Till then i'll play how the archer was intended to.
#38 Nov 21 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
I dont know the mechanics, I haven't played archer yet (figured I'd save one class to be fresh once the leveling experience is a little better), but if standing in aoe range helps the healer, without hurting the archers effectiveness, I don't see why the archer wouldn't.
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#39 Nov 21 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Default
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608 posts
its bad con's, AOE healing makes it toooooo easy to heal. and people crying about hate cant read cuz its broken till they do there party balence update and it still might not be perfect. typical mmo's whining people picking a class they sure dont wanna be but someone tells them they should be it. i say kick them out the party, they start ******** off things they should be doing.
#40 Nov 21 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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116 posts
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Yes it is fair to expect the melee that can take the hits to stand in the AOE.


even this is bad design. i would "think" the idea would be taht if you can avoid ae so I have to heal less therefore have less opportunity for ppl to die and more opportunity for me to chip in dmg or heal the tank more effectively, than do so. but again - i digress
#41 Nov 21 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Default
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116 posts
Timorith wrote:
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
What really bugs, is when they pick up loads of adds then train them over to you. That situation is easily avoided by grouping around the mob not standing miles away.
As long as archers have an ACC and ATK penalty when attacking targets in melee range, they are simply not able to stand right on a mob. You shouldn't expect them to given the game's current mechanics.

Not picking up adds is a legit concern however, and something archers learn to do (not do) eventually. Part of the benefit of standing away from the fight is that we have a much better perspective on what's going on, and this includes adds. Sooner or later you develop the awareness to move when necessary.

I'll also add here that any good archer realizes he has to be completely self-sufficient in a group, including buffing and healing himself.

If the necessary mechanic of archers standing out of melee range to be effective is really that troublesome then perhaps its worth the time to send some feedback through the Square Enix Support Center - they are really just attempting to play the class as it was designed.


this
#42 Nov 21 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Default
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116 posts
AilysFoxglove wrote:
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
However, I have had such a varied experience at Eft but most parties have been really good and people have listened.
Squishies who cannot survive a hit of AOE even with shell stand at the mobs tail or side but very close to the mob (this includes archers). All other melee stand at the front and take dmg to help the healer get SP - that is a fair trade off and the best we can do.

The thing that really bugs me with archers standing miles away is not that they are not getting healed, as technically they shouldn;t be getting hit. What really bugs, is when they pick up loads of adds then train them over to you. That situation is easily avoided by grouping around the mob not standing miles away.


Interesting...
I've rarely played Ranged DDs (my preference has usually been THFs which are, sadly, absent from this game), but I'm playing an Archer (for my main battle-class) and while I'm not down for the long grinding sessions, I do want to better understand how archers play in FFXIV before I get to the bigger mobs.
Now from previous games, I know that when I do have to stand in the open adds are my primary concern while I'm attacking... one eye on the target, one eye on what's about to target me... because yes, I'm squishy and apparently delicious.
From reading other posts and this one, it also sounds like most players are just using the primary attack and not very many other actions (which, I know, for archers most other actions are add candy anyway and should be used with GREAT care.... stupid curiosity).
I've already picked up that it doesn't seem like Archers are used to pull mobs to the party (like in most other MMOs), but aside from that... you almost make it sound like the tanks just run up to the mob and start wailing away while everyone else assumes formation (be it a good or bad formation).
Is this really the case? Are parties just moving from mob to mob, rather than pulling the mobs to the party? Because to me, if everyone was in a strategic position, then the archer wouldn't be able to train adds to the party (assuming such a strategic position was available).
Or am I not getting something about how parties are running?

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 8:15am by AilysFoxglove


again courtesy of SE funky "lets try to fix all problems w/ half **** fixes" mentality when creating this game, groups dont function like they used to. There is no "pulling" to an ideal area due to the funky short leash/reset/heal mechanic. Its basically run from mob to mob and melee or not u should stand in front of the mob or behind the mob in melee range depending on the direction of its ae. but seriously..
#43 Nov 21 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Default
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116 posts
wallace87 wrote:
Wow your moaning because you take damage?

Welcome to FFXIV where being a DoM means the best way to get SP is via healing, no damage = no heals = no SP

Its called a party, your a team, work together! If you die get some VIT, your going to need it eventually anyway. At the moment DEX and STR are a bit broken anyway.

But if you want stand out the way, gimp the mages then have no-one to heal you and thus no parties and trust me i bet thats going to annoy you alot more than just taking a few HP of damage.


Oh and also when you fight raptors its a great help to ALL for stacking at front,
-Standing at side or back = killer 2000 AoE
-Stand far and get aggro = running around and chance for 2000 AoE

When your in a PT its not all about you, its about the team. If you taking damage doesnt hurt anyone it only benefits the PT and wont hurt your SP.

When SE fix the game then worry about the correct places to stand :)


your str and dex may be broken, mine sure isnt? as for being in a pt, my job is to do dmg, not to take it. thats how i chip in. they have 5 other bodies to heal including themselves, they dont need mine as well, especially when im not a melee. i concur
#44 Nov 21 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Default
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116 posts
ShockTopMagic wrote:
From my experience (rank 30 conj) if an Archer stands up front with the rest of the group, with protect and shell I'm easily able to keep everyone alive. If everyone is alive everyone is also getting sp. One more person to heal is one more change for a healer to get sp too.

Basically I'm asking, "Why not stand up close if the conjurer can keep you alive?" (I don't know much about accuracy/distance for Archers, but I know that Archers in my party have gotten tons of sp even standing close)

That picture of a typical party setup where different classes should stand would be good if you're trying to kill the monsters efficiently, but when grinding for sp I dont think it's necessary at all. It may be a good idea for future missions or NMs where killing a monster might actually be challenging


we dont like to stand up front because A) if we wanted to we wouldnt have rolled an archer B) range and position effects our accuracy which effects our sp C) many conjurors can keep me alive, or even do MOST of the time, but the times that they dont or that I die, it wouldnt have happened at all if I wasnt there in the first place and finally D) i only get one opportunity to gain sp off the mob im whacking, and from what i hear archers already have it bad on the sp gain side - considering you guys have that mob as well as the tank as well as the rest of the ppl taking dmg including yourselves (ime) what on earth are you griefing the ranged dd into standing in the ae's for too?

such a broken idea - how in the HECK did SE during their roundtable brainstorming testing or w/e else they do over the years they design a game, NOT see this?
#45 Nov 21 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Default
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116 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
I dont know the mechanics, I haven't played archer yet (figured I'd save one class to be fresh once the leveling experience is a little better), but if standing in aoe range helps the healer, without hurting the archers effectiveness, I don't see why the archer wouldn't.


see post about Archer being a ranged damage class, considering that fact and that fact alone is all that makes us different than a melee damage class, do you think people pick an archer to shoot from toe to toe range? If a persons reason for picking a class itself isnt a good enough reason to play that class using its defining role, i dont know what is.

of course we all know that isnt good enough - so in that case see the other reasons but... perhaps some marauders outta back up and start chcuking their throwing axes instead? meh bad design.
#46 Nov 21 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
klepp6761 wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I dont know the mechanics, I haven't played archer yet (figured I'd save one class to be fresh once the leveling experience is a little better), but if standing in aoe range helps the healer, without hurting the archers effectiveness, I don't see why the archer wouldn't.


see post about Archer being a ranged damage class, considering that fact and that fact alone is all that makes us different than a melee damage class, do you think people pick an archer to shoot from toe to toe range? If a persons reason for picking a class itself isnt a good enough reason to play that class using its defining role, i dont know what is.

of course we all know that isnt good enough - so in that case see the other reasons but... perhaps some marauders outta back up and start chcuking their throwing axes instead? meh bad design.


hey, thats fine. You're basically saying that flavor and your interpretation is more important to you effectiveness and helping group members. thats your priority, and you're completely welcome to play that way.
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#47 Nov 21 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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zoltanrs wrote:
There is no recordable difference in where you stand. The damage is the same. The hit % is virtually the same. A few % tells me nothing other than that particular arrow decided to miss this time. As for damage it was zero difference. Where did you get this information?
The Archer class description specifically states archers are 'weak at close range'. I assume SE wrote that to let players know from the beginning what to expect. In addition there are several prominent references to archers' adherence to distanced attacks within the game itself, from NPCs at the archer's guild and within the class' storyline.

There's also the ever-present balance issue to consider. As a developer, would YOU allow a high burst ranged class to be as effective from melee? Wouldn't that recreate the same issues that we saw in FFXI? If an archer could be equally effective in melee and at range, why bring or play any other class? This has not been implicitly stated but from Square's past history of balance changes I think we can anticipate a similar mechanic in XIV.

zoltanrs wrote:
I don't think enough testing has been done by anyone to fully prove either way but a simple test tells me enough. Any other pattern where I thought I was on to something faded shortly and never returned. I think simply the game isn't complex enough to have that as a feature.
So you ignore the stated, documented description of class focus, deferring instead to your own cursory tests - then go on to say that not enough testing has been done for a definitive answer? I'm confused, if adequate testing on the effects of range have not been done, from what basis are you making your argument?

I challenge you to provide data to substantiate your claim that range has no effect on archers. Until then, the class description - written and released by the company that developed the game - simply holds more weight.

Also please remember that we are dealing with a game that is rough and unfinished; its quite possible that the ranged mechanics that SE has told us are in effect are NOT as of yet - but that fact should be a clear-cut indication that what we are dealing with here are design issues and potentially broken game functions. Until XIV is in a more finished state I think it would be prudent to withhold judgement, rather than castigating everyone who plays the archer class as 'a *********

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 9:33pm by Timorith
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Melaahna Valiera
#48 Nov 21 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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472 posts
klepp6761 wrote:
Parsalyn wrote:
The real problem that I saw when playing as a conjurer, is that Archers tend to attack before the tank has agro. Next, they tend to stand too far away from the aoe heals. Even though I am standing behind the tank a distance, the archers go out of their way to stay as far away from the healer as they can. I was constantly staring at them and asking myself, if I let them die, will they learn to take one step forward? So the question becomes, as an archer, do you do more damage the more distance away from the mob that you are attacking? If the answer to that question is NO, then the obvious conclusion is that archers need to take the time to step up.


actually they already said distance and positioning affects accuracy and your telling me that us ranged damage classes should play like a melee damage class? i shoulda rolled a diff class. Last i checkd the tank should be taking dmg, the conj should be healing him while everyone else stands wherever they take the least amount of dmg.

for some reason this everyone thinks the playerpile is the best strategy and no one even tries to play via the normal method. I agree that I shouldnt be taking dmg, as i said.. hence i dont. If i do Its because i wandered to close to the ae and do I grief the conj for letting me die? No, he is busy standing in one spot spamming ae heal because targetting individuals is too difficult.

in the end, it boils down to selfishness over sp which is bad design to begin with. that said, i cant believe people are still tryin to argue this.

I welcome an honest conjuror to submit some data that shows their sp gain with eeryone taking ae dmg, then everyone taking ae dmg minus the archer. then no one but the tank taking dmg and healing him and dd'ing when/if possible.

just curious. It would work in their favor much better if they didnt just dismiss other avenues and actually had some exampls to back up their qq.

Till then i'll play how the archer was intended to.


Conjurers have an ability to root ourselves to conserve mana, and we cannot move from that spot. If the archer is outside of that, guess what we have to do? I am not talking about aoe heals. I am speaking to a simple, you are out of my range, to heal you, and you are also out of my aoe range to heal you. The hit box range heal is also very short and until you play it, you can't really diagnose it. The game itself is setup to be a button spam, and I can say that I watched DD classes level out of the group faster than me, because I was healing and buffing.
#49 Nov 21 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
Quote:
I challenge you to provide data to substantiate your claim that range has no effect on archers. Until then, the class description - written and released by the company that developed the game - simply holds more weight.


How exactly does it hold more weight when current tests seem to at least suggest that there is no effect.
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#50 Nov 22 2010 at 4:09 AM Rating: Default
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696 posts
Timorith wrote:
zoltanrs wrote:
There is no recordable difference in where you stand. The damage is the same. The hit % is virtually the same. A few % tells me nothing other than that particular arrow decided to miss this time. As for damage it was zero difference. Where did you get this information?
The Archer class description specifically states archers are 'weak at close range'. I assume SE wrote that to let players know from the beginning what to expect. In addition there are several prominent references to archers' adherence to distanced attacks within the game itself, from NPCs at the archer's guild and within the class' storyline.

There's also the ever-present balance issue to consider. As a developer, would YOU allow a high burst ranged class to be as effective from melee? Wouldn't that recreate the same issues that we saw in FFXI? If an archer could be equally effective in melee and at range, why bring or play any other class? This has not been implicitly stated but from Square's past history of balance changes I think we can anticipate a similar mechanic in XIV.

zoltanrs wrote:
I don't think enough testing has been done by anyone to fully prove either way but a simple test tells me enough. Any other pattern where I thought I was on to something faded shortly and never returned. I think simply the game isn't complex enough to have that as a feature.
So you ignore the stated, documented description of class focus, deferring instead to your own cursory tests - then go on to say that not enough testing has been done for a definitive answer? I'm confused, if adequate testing on the effects of range have not been done, from what basis are you making your argument?

I challenge you to provide data to substantiate your claim that range has no effect on archers. Until then, the class description - written and released by the company that developed the game - simply holds more weight.

Also please remember that we are dealing with a game that is rough and unfinished; its quite possible that the ranged mechanics that SE has told us are in effect are NOT as of yet - but that fact should be a clear-cut indication that what we are dealing with here are design issues and potentially broken game functions. Until XIV is in a more finished state I think it would be prudent to withhold judgement, rather than castigating everyone who plays the archer class as 'a *********

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 9:33pm by Timorith


I'll start by attacking your reading comprehension. It is terrible. You can't interpret SE's statements correctly or mine. Your knowledge of FFXI is again, terrible. You see, I can't melee. So there goes your whole argument on that portion of the issue. Where I stand because I cannot melee is irrelevant. I can't whip up free damage and quick TP standing in melee range hitting with my daggers AND do great ranged damage from the same spot. See where you are missing the bus yet? So you expect a similar change on a whole different issue that isn't related.. Maybe when I can swing up my dagger at melee and tear it up while Sluggoing the **** out of the mob it'll be an issue again. d(o_o)b

Weak at close range. You pretty much wear cloth and have a low health modifier. What else did you need to know? You're trying to read things that aren't there.This is pretty cookie cutter hunter, ranger, scout, etc description. If I didn't know better I'd think they stole it from a certain other game that isn't theirs(yeah, its pretty much the same. Bad SE) You aren't tank-like is all that says. You are definitely new to mmos or ranged classes if you can't spot that right off. lol


Here's my response to your challenge. You go test it. You'll see. Stand away from a mob. wail away on it. Write your damage and hits down. Run before it dies. Repeat 10 times only counting shots at range then again in melee range. You'll see some different numbers for accuracy but nothing wacked out or indicative of anything. Your damage... will be the same. I have done this several times. Why would I wish to do this for you as well? You want me to come over there and show you how I kill reds too? Play your own game.

You want to try to twist my admission that I could be proven wrong around to mean what it doesn't mean. See, if you READ it, it was simply my admission that i haven't repeated the test for thousands of iterations.( See the simple test tells me enough part. Yeah, go ahead and facepalm) See the word fully there? Yeah, that word means something. A full test would include an examination of every factor and a mathematical truth table for thousands and thousands of attempts against a very known test source. I am working on these things for myself. Not complete yet. See WoW damage math equations if you want to see how this works and why it's so difficult to prove down to an exact predictable number or extract the equation used to figure your damage and accuracy. That is what fully is. Noone has done it AND published it. I won't be the first. Trade secrets ^^

I have simply tested this and found it to be the way I said it was. How easy is that? I don't even need complex tests to prove the basics. If I'm off it's luck based by a small number or by a small number due to some abstract factor.

Does range matter with accuracy or damage? All i need is a yes or a no. The simple test gives me a no. Why should i waste more time trying to figure out to what degree of no? All further tests do is see if the answer changes. If it changes to yes in a pattern, guess what, it's complex test time. This is not the case so far.


I do indeed ignore descriptions of an incomplete (even moreso when it was written) game. I live in the world of what exists. I don't care if they turn me into a giant cactus that 1k needles down bosses next patch. It makes no difference now. I can wish for archer to be the ultimate stand at range all the time for a good purpose class all I want in one hand and crap in the other. Guess which one fills up first. You can continue living in the world of what isn't but stay away from me with your badness. On a related note.... I know you're new to mmos already but every games class descriptions are always messed up. If you played paladin in WOW at release you probably have the best example for those others reading.

If you are doing things that hurt your party for no good reason you earn the right to be called ******** Plain and simple. You are standing at range for the sake of standing at range and defending it to the end for nothing. You just need to bite the bullet and face it. There are times where standing at range may be a huge plus. Those times are sparse tho.

About your precious picture. It was made when the battles were large scale group on group. Do you see a lot of large group on group? Me either. It's not even the same game as when that picture was made. Here. I'll draw you a more realistic picture of how things ACTUALLY are.

I'm a Freakin crab.-------I'm getting heals----Magics.---------I'm a healer-----Bad archer---------Aggros


(=====O)<<---------------(o_O) (o_o) (O_O)-!$%$%#%^= = =--(^>^)----------- (X_X)-------- \"\(o,,,O)/"/


================================================ <<< Healing LOS XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX<< Death zone

U C wut I did thar? That's what everyone but you sees too.





#51 Nov 22 2010 at 4:43 AM Rating: Decent
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2,153 posts
When mages boss people around to stand in the line of fire something is broken.
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