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An idea for a siegeFollow

#1 Nov 20 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry if this is in game atm, i am not high enough level to see...

I was thinking earlier how i would do a mission that can incorperate all of the classes in a practical, enjoyable way. This came from my personal experience with missions and a thread about it as well.

Basically, i would see it as a persistant mission. Occuring say, every 1-2 hours or so (time can be shifted of course).

It would start out with the aggressive nation (i forget the name) invading a major city (or a city created specifically for this mission). The mission would start out with a "call to arms".

The player would then be given a choice on how they wish to contribute (basically saying which class they wish to play, this would be locked in stone for the encounter they signed up for but can be changed for any future encounters).

The first part of the mission would be of supply and fortification. DoL classes would go out and gather specific materials (fish for feeding the troops, ore and lumber for the doh classes to build supplies for the defenders). Obviously the materials would be special in some way to be engaging to the classes. While they are out gathering they would be randomly attacked by spies, scouts and raiders from the invading army. The dow/dom classes would be in charge of escorting them and protecting them. The quality of items gathered will directly impact the quality of items produced by them.

Meanwhile the stockpile of supplies would be building as they are being collected by the dol. In town, the doh classes would create useable items for the defence from that. Cooks would prepare rations, carpenters would create baracades, armorsmiths ... well armor, etc. All of these items would be specific to the mission at hand and give a good bonus to the encounter. Not having enough of these would create an uphill battle for the town as well (these items would provide + dmg and defence to the attackers as well as providing a dmg reduction to a specific attack only done by the invaders that no other armor can mitigate). Quality of the items produced by the doh classes will have an impact on the bonuses given to the dow/dom wearers.

Once the invasion starts, individual dow/dom classes would be assigned roles specific to their abilities. Archers, Conj and Thaum would man the walls, raining attacks on the invading force (there will be a set number of invaders, so this phase will help to mitigate the pressure felt later, however no leaders will be able to be kill here). Once the gates have been broken (and i think it would be on a timer, say hold the gate for 5 mins to complete the intial wave or whatever) then the gladiators and pugilists would attempt to hold the line. With backup from the other dow classes (but i see these two being the main force at holding the line).

Meanwhile, supplies will be running low and dol classes will need to venture out and gather more for the seige effort. Escorts will be carried out by lnc, mar. Same scenario applies here, the dol classes will be subject to ambushes.

During this phase, repairs will be needed as well. Baracades will fall, armor / weapons will break. Stations will be made for armor / weapon repairs (i envision the gear specific for this encounter to have a higher then normal durability loss, such that at least once your gear will break and you will be left defenseless unless you repair since you will not be able to swap in new gear). Healers will also have aid stations with which to treat the wounded as well as having a field medic type role. Key NPC's will be present (as well as normal npc's to fill in PC numbers) and will be critically wounded and require healing at these aid stations. Failure to save these NPC's lives will result in another up hill battle as they will be key to defeating the leaders of the invaders. Alchemists will play a key role, say in devising antidotes to poisons inflicted on these NPC's.

The invasion will be fended off after a specific time period, say 30 min to 1 hour total time. If the invading army is not able to press into a specific location (say the town hall or a keep) then the defenders win. Another condition for winning is reducing the invaders force to 0, but this will be an unlikely outcome (numbers need to be tweaked here to maintain this of course).

Location control will be a combination of a "king of the hill" type control and a function of the quality of the structures. For example, if 20 invaders are in the town square, a progress bar will begin to tick down. Each invader in the area is worth a certain value. Leaders are worth more. Destroying baracades or building increase the rate at which they can gain control. Repairs can be made to these structures by doh and the invaders can be defeated by dow/dom. Baracades btw, will be physical obstructions at key choke points.

If the invaders win, the mission is a failure and can be retried after a certain time frame. To get around lack of PC's NPC's will fill in the gaps, but be replaced by PC's as the join (players can join at any point in the battle, for partial credit to the mission). Basically, a set number of characters (both npc and pc) can be in the battle at any given time. Say, for example, 10 of every class. If there are 5 blacksmiths PC's in teh seige, 5 NPCs will fill in the gaps. As a baseline, if there are 0 PC's participating (that is to say, 100% of the characters in the battle are NPC's) there is a 75% chance the town will fall (again, can be balanced if needed). This is motivation for the PC's to participate since the event is not an auto win by being carried by the NPC's.


Wow, wall of text. Anyway, it was just an idea i had on a mission that would be fun to do as any class.
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#2 Nov 20 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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This sounds wonderfully cool if it was real. Too bad it probably wouldn't be something SE could do at least for awhile :(.
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#3 Nov 20 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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This is an incredible idea which could be implemented using similar techniques to Besieged in FFXI. The lore for it is already in place what with Ala Mihgo and the Garlean Empire. Thumbs up OP, good thinking. Hopefully somebody reads this.
#4 Nov 20 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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I doubt we'll see the Garlean Empire make any significant move until the first expansion, but I'm hoping to see them do something - I'd hate to play 8 years on the "brink of war."

This whole Hamlet defense thing coming up, hopefully they implement small ideas (similar to these) for artisans/gatherers to participate ahead of time, or even during, but that will most likely be against beastmen, one could hope it would be Garleans but I doubt it.

Anyways...

The biggest issue with this would be the fact that it would severely disrupt play for low level characters, that being said, as long as it was only once a day at each nation max. it wouldn't be too disruptive, and would probably give even the lowbies a sense of a greater scale of events going on around them and suck them into the world. Heck - there's no reason there can't be all sorts of repeatable quests that even low levels can do to help prepare ahead of time.

I'm looking forward to confronting the Garleans head on in their territory, but I hope to seem them attacking at home as well - if they pull some Parallel Universe/Past World crap for content like this I will be frustrated, find some way to ensure it's not incredibly disruptive, and make sure it's got something for everyone and I seriously don't see a reason to segment it.

Edit: One major issue is addressing a loss condition. It would be very disruptive to have the invaders win and occupy, simply because a lot of cutscenes may not make sense during occupation, or would need to be edited to have occupied versions. Personally I wouldn't mind a Garlean occupation of a nation, as long as you could work to try and take the city back eventually, and that it wasn't such an inconvenience that normal play was completely disrupted.

Edited, Nov 20th 2010 6:51pm by RamseySylph
#5 Nov 20 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
The biggest issue with this would be the fact that it would severely disrupt play for low level characters, that being said, as long as it was only once a day at each nation max. it wouldn't be too disruptive, and would probably give even the lowbies a sense of a greater scale of events going on around them and suck them into the world. Heck - there's no reason there can't be all sorts of repeatable quests that even low levels can do to help prepare ahead of time.

You could actually solve that issue by implementing a martial law sort of system, where certain sectors of the city get "locked down" allowing any noncombatants to evacuate and continue their normal work in the relative safety of bunker zones. You could add realism to the system by actually showing the NPCs moving to the bunkers and making it so that people locked outside have to fend for themselves (harsh, but would give a real feel of urgency to the event).

On an unrelated note, can I request this thread be moved to the Feedback forum by an admin? This idea has serious potential and supposedly Square Enix PR employees do check ZAM's feedback forums.
#6 Nov 21 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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This is a great idea. I love it in every way. I do hope they will implement something like this in the future.

Too bad it's gonna be quite a long while before they can do this...at least until computers that can handle that kind of massive event will be affordable to most people. =/
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#7 Nov 21 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Hulan wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
The biggest issue with this would be the fact that it would severely disrupt play for low level characters, that being said, as long as it was only once a day at each nation max. it wouldn't be too disruptive, and would probably give even the lowbies a sense of a greater scale of events going on around them and suck them into the world. Heck - there's no reason there can't be all sorts of repeatable quests that even low levels can do to help prepare ahead of time.

You could actually solve that issue by implementing a martial law sort of system, where certain sectors of the city get "locked down" allowing any noncombatants to evacuate and continue their normal work in the relative safety of bunker zones. You could add realism to the system by actually showing the NPCs moving to the bunkers and making it so that people locked outside have to fend for themselves (harsh, but would give a real feel of urgency to the event).

On an unrelated note, can I request this thread be moved to the Feedback forum by an admin? This idea has serious potential and supposedly Square Enix PR employees do check ZAM's feedback forums.


This reminds me that my biggest annoyance with FFXIV is that no one has any sort of routine, why is it that no MMO has NPCs with daily routines? I'd like the vendors to close shop, or at least switch out with another clerk and go home for the evening while the night shift guy comes in. Sure it'd make doing quests annoying sometimes, but days are so short who cares? I want some Harvest Moon in my MMO.

Threx wrote:
This is a great idea. I love it in every way. I do hope they will implement something like this in the future.

Too bad it's gonna be quite a long while before they can do this...at least until Square-Enix gets servers that don't lag and the general public gets FIOS to handle that kind of content. =/


Fix't.
#8 Nov 21 2010 at 2:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Always looking forward to events. The hourly Behest has been rather lackluster.
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#9 Nov 21 2010 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Hulan wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
The biggest issue with this would be the fact that it would severely disrupt play for low level characters, that being said, as long as it was only once a day at each nation max. it wouldn't be too disruptive, and would probably give even the lowbies a sense of a greater scale of events going on around them and suck them into the world. Heck - there's no reason there can't be all sorts of repeatable quests that even low levels can do to help prepare ahead of time.

You could actually solve that issue by implementing a martial law sort of system, where certain sectors of the city get "locked down" allowing any noncombatants to evacuate and continue their normal work in the relative safety of bunker zones. You could add realism to the system by actually showing the NPCs moving to the bunkers and making it so that people locked outside have to fend for themselves (harsh, but would give a real feel of urgency to the event).

On an unrelated note, can I request this thread be moved to the Feedback forum by an admin? This idea has serious potential and supposedly Square Enix PR employees do check ZAM's feedback forums.


This reminds me that my biggest annoyance with FFXIV is that no one has any sort of routine, why is it that no MMO has NPCs with daily routines? I'd like the vendors to close shop, or at least switch out with another clerk and go home for the evening while the night shift guy comes in. Sure it'd make doing quests annoying sometimes, but days are so short who cares? I want some Harvest Moon in my MMO.

More than roaming NPCs, which I could see a valid argument against, I would really like to see more organic communication with NPCs in future MMOs, it's too late for FFXIV (unless they implement it in an expansion for new areas) but it would be nice to see "later". One simple thing that would really enhance the experience for me would be add a sort of Hot/Cold game for quests; namely, set up a network of NPCs where the quality of the answer to a query is dependent on the degrees of separation from your primary target.

Let us say that you have a quest where you have to find a shop keeper that sells a certain herb. You can ask around town and depending on how well the person you are asking knows a (in a game it would be the since it's a quest which means by default it would be a "super rare" herb) merchant that sells the herb, you well get more or less information about continuing the quest. Obviously, anyone just following an online guide could go straight to the correct NPC, but doing it this way would give the game a much more real world feel, since you could literally ask around about a quest instead of random guessing.

Something else that would be nice would be have NPCs that actually react to your notoriety. Nothing bothered me more in FFXI than NPCs that in one CS thank you for saving the world, and then talking to people around town treating you like you just rolled in that day.

Practically speaking, the only way to go about doing that would be for the game to dynamically create lines for each NPC for each conversation (more doable than you would think), since it would be expecting way too much to think that the writers could come up with the immense number of combinations of lines for every quest, mission, fame level, etc.
#10 Nov 21 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Good
Maybe you missed this little bit of information on the Lodestone:

The addition of new battle content
  • The addition of notorious monster-related battle content
  • The addition of hamlet defense battles
  • The addition of item exchange quests


This does sound like a Besieged type Battle at all the Hamlets to me.
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#11 Nov 21 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
(basically saying which class they wish to play, this would be locked in stone for the encounter they signed up for but can be changed for any future encounters).


Why?
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#12 Nov 21 2010 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
(basically saying which class they wish to play, this would be locked in stone for the encounter they signed up for but can be changed for any future encounters).


Why?

If nothing else, it would be a useful logistics tool. Make it so that players can check a roster of how many jobs are being fulfilled so far and let them choose what area needs the most help if they have it (this, of course depends on the grossly optimistic hope that people would actually work together for great justice, instead of doing whatever they want).
#13 Nov 21 2010 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If nothing else, it would be a useful logistics tool. Make it so that players can check a roster of how many jobs are being fulfilled so far and let them choose what area needs the most help if they have it (this, of course depends on the grossly optimistic hope that people would actually work together for great justice, instead of doing whatever they want).


But why make it so you can't change classes? That's a big part of the gameplay and I don't think it should be marginalized like that for no reason.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#14 Nov 21 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Maybe you missed this little bit of information on the Lodestone:


Oops, did not sese that. Still though, they did not detail it out so i suppose my idea still has some minor value. Either way, it's just an idea.

Quote:
But why make it so you can't change classes? That's a big part of the gameplay and I don't think it should be marginalized like that for no reason.


I went with locking people in for balancing and challenge- i felt that if everyone could do everything, then the seige would be trivialized and the immersion of the event would be lost.

Basically, the group strategy suffers for it. Don't get me wrong, if you can come up with a way that makes these key mechanics meaningful i would like to hear it. I just felt that having to balance your limited man power and resources in a dynamic battle would be much more enjoyable and challenging then having it just be "defend the area".

For example:

If you have say 5 of each class present (just a random number) - managing the repairs of the baracdes becomes much more difficult. The 5 blacksmiths and carpenters need to prioritize which ones they repair and in which order. Likewise, they must be given escorts and protected.

Also, if you have say 10 people able to heal - managing who is out in the field acting as a medic and who is running the medic station becomes much more indepth. Hot spots of combat need to be tended to ona dynamic basis ensuring that no point is captured because of casualties. All the while the medic station needs to be running effeciently.

Alot of this gets lost or trivialized if everyone can dynamically fill any role. It also becomes more about how many classes you have leveled at the time rather then how good the group is at managing its resources and how well they play their roles.

I also felt that eventually (as people leveled more and more) there would be the social pressure to only accept people who can contribute 100% to every aspect of the siege. I wanted to avoid the situation where a relatively new lvl 30 (for example) would be shunned or looked down upon because even though he is a level 30 mar he does not have a level 30 carp and cannot help the other players repair the baracades.

Like i said, it's just an idea.


edit:

balancing is also much easier with a fixed number of classes as well. with a limit of say 10 dol, you can set a good goal for them to be done with resources in 5 mins. faster rewards more time, slower is a penalty. without this limit, it becomes harder to define a baseline time- given that you could then have anywhere from 0 to near 100% of your participants being a dol at that time.

likewise, defining the strength of the invaders becomes difficult. before if you had say 20 combat classes, you can define the number and strength of your invaders based on that. player skill then becomes the driving force in performance. without the limit you can have anywhere from 0% to near 100% of your participants able to be in combat with the invaders. this becomes hard to balance since if you balance around 50% then 100% becomes a cake walk and 25% becomes too difficult.

The same goes with repairing and pretty much every other role. with a clearly defined participation, things become balanced and challenging.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 11:03am by KacesofCaitsith
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#15 Nov 21 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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If this were to be implemented as a Garlean invasion type scenario it would have to be restricted to Ala Mihgo. It would be too much of a disruption in any of the other cities. The whole Hamlet siege thing doesn't quite equate as far as we know. What's going to happen to Aleport when the Sahagin's win? Do we give a ****? Does it actually affect our game play? Or do we just get prizes for repelling the invasion while losing nets us a cut-scene of a burning village surrounded my decapitated heads struck through with pikes?
#16 Nov 28 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
Wloire wrote:
If this were to be implemented as a Garlean invasion type scenario it would have to be restricted to Ala Mihgo. It would be too much of a disruption in any of the other cities. The whole Hamlet siege thing doesn't quite equate as far as we know. What's going to happen to Aleport when the Sahagin's win? Do we give a sh*t? Does it actually affect our game play? Or do we just get prizes for repelling the invasion while losing nets us a cut-scene of a burning village surrounded my decapitated heads struck through with pikes?


There are guilds in those hamlets (2 or 3 in each). My guess is that these guilds will be essential for higher level recipes, leves or gear. Loosing the Hamlet would mean no access to these guilds for a certain period. Think of it like them stealing the "astral candy" and we can not teleport anymore in FF11. These Hamlets might be essential for late or end game.
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#17 Nov 28 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
Warning! This is not a flame! Warning! This is not a flame!

This does sound like a lot of fun. It's active, engaging, takes some time, could spell great rewards. The only problem I see is that this sounds almost exactly like Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos and others. Gather supplies, protect the harvesters, build defenses, buy supplies, etc. Only thing you wouldn't be doing is training new soldiers / mages. I don't know if SE would go for it strictly due to that.
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#18 Nov 28 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Warning! This is not a flame! Warning! This is not a flame!

This does sound like a lot of fun. It's active, engaging, takes some time, could spell great rewards. The only problem I see is that this sounds almost exactly like Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos and others. Gather supplies, protect the harvesters, build defenses, buy supplies, etc. Only thing you wouldn't be doing is training new soldiers / mages. I don't know if SE would go for it strictly due to that.


Heh, it does sound like an RTS now that you mention it.
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#19 Nov 29 2010 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I do like the idea, but regard the DOL and DOH part...dont sound that fun for me if i have to do the cooking in there. I do like the idea of lock class, it give player a chance to work as a team and not a wanabe w***** that can solo the hole battle
#20 Nov 29 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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The only problem I see with locking the player class is what if someone (or many people ) log out in the middle of the event. What if you loose all of your blacksmiths or armorsmiths? You get the point. I like the idea of being able to determine the need and making a decision how best to use your skills.

I'll go a step further and say that there needs to be different areas for this based on your skill level. You wouldn't want level 50's running around pwning everything and make the level 12 archer feel useless. There needs to be a different instance for each level grouping.
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#21 Nov 29 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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tmproff wrote:
The only problem I see with locking the player class is what if someone (or many people ) log out in the middle of the event. What if you loose all of your blacksmiths or armorsmiths? You get the point. I like the idea of being able to determine the need and making a decision how best to use your skills.

I'll go a step further and say that there needs to be different areas for this based on your skill level. You wouldn't want level 50's running around pwning everything and make the level 12 archer feel useless. There needs to be a different instance for each level grouping.


if you ever play siege battle like in l2 or aion, then if those thing happen, its **** happen, and usually the siege last max 1-2h, most can stay that long unleast they have something unexpect happen.

about the instance, it ll be even more useless when the base player begin to reach middle lvl. i do prefer let the low rank feel they are useless so they try grind their *** up rather than spoiler them
#22 Nov 29 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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sounds a lot like darkfall online to me

fun :)
#23 Nov 29 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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tmproff wrote:
The only problem I see with locking the player class is what if someone (or many people ) log out in the middle of the event. What if you loose all of your blacksmiths or armorsmiths? You get the point. I like the idea of being able to determine the need and making a decision how best to use your skills.

I'll go a step further and say that there needs to be different areas for this based on your skill level. You wouldn't want level 50's running around pwning everything and make the level 12 archer feel useless. There needs to be a different instance for each level grouping.



Well i see two solutions off the bat for the first issue:

1) NPC's spawn to fill the gaps.

2) A queue system. I.E. a blacksmith dc's then a person who is willing to play the blacksmith gets to join the battle.
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