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Notorious Monsters will destroy Crafting like it did in FFXIFollow

#1 Nov 21 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Default
Discuss.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 1:55pm by MclarenTAGPorsche
#2 Nov 21 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Probably.
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#3 Nov 21 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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We'll need to see what they drop as well as how the open world vs. guild leve drops compare I think.
#4 Nov 21 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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No.
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#5 Nov 21 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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They may end up make drops you get be exclusive or w/e the word is. Meaning you can't trade the items. Or the items you can sell will be materials to make items. I know a while back that they were talking about doing it in a way that it doesn't negatively affect the economy. On the same hand, they want you to still be able to feel the sense of accomplishment at killing an NM.

I think they are going to try their hardest to keep it from affecting the economy. Especially with how much importance they put on crafting.
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#6 Nov 21 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.
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#7 Nov 21 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
Discuss.


Crafters will be still needed for your average needs, but lets hope nothing's comparable to NM dropped gear. Why? Because at the moment there is no reason to level a DoW over a DoH.
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#8 Nov 21 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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Shijou, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:
It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.


eww they do not need to give crafters even more power in this game.
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#9 Nov 21 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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eww they do not need to give crafters even more power in this game.
You would still have to defeat the monster to get the materials, so im not sure how exactly gives crafters more power. And yes, HNM gear should be more powerful than crafted stuff. If it wasn't, there would be absolutely no need for them to exist other than to say "I killed it".

Wearing HNM armor is like a badge of honor. It's not only to say you defeated a powerful opponent, that you earned the right to be stronger. It's like a rite of passage, and one I'd like to see make a comeback for FFXIV. Besides, if all the materials for super armor were easy to obtain, then everyone would wear it, making it less 'super' and more 'common'.

I'd personally like to see a return of the Noble's Tunic with cure potency enhancements and the like. They could even make it require a high level weaver and lots of rare materials and I'd still welcome it!
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#10 Nov 21 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Shijou, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:
It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.


Good point. Followup question:

Do any monsters currently in FFXIV drop wearable equipment?

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 1:10pm by rikkuotaku
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#11 Nov 21 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Shijou, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:
It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.


eww they do not need to give crafters even more power in this game.



Would it? I'd say it would bring everyone on the same level. Without combat classes, the crafters wouldn't get their materials. Without crafters, the combat classes wouldn't get their items.
#12 Nov 21 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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When did NMs destroy crafting in FFXI? I played from 2003 til early 2007 and in those 4-5 years crafted Items were still the only thing to get while lvling <.<
Once you reach 75 you still use lots of crafted stuff til you get some HNM stuff or w/e...so I don't see where NMs destroyed crafting in FFXI at all?
#13 Nov 21 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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NMs destroyed crafting in xi? I sure missed that memo.
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#14 Nov 21 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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NMs dropping RARE/EX materials.

Now THAT would be interesting. ^^
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#15 Nov 21 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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They will probly drop normal items, then when everyone comes to the feedback forums and says NM should drop better items then SE will change it say how wonderful they are for listening to feedback. With all the changes they are trying to make I expect everything to be bare minimum, just like this game when it started.
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#16 Nov 21 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Shijou, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:
It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.


eww they do not need to give crafters even more power in this game.



Would it? I'd say it would bring everyone on the same level. Without combat classes, the crafters wouldn't get their materials. Without crafters, the combat classes wouldn't get their items.


If I'm out there with my group, as the one lancer. And we kill a NM that drops an item that only makes a spearhead, I'm going to have to go find a crafter who can actually make the item. Trade him my rare item. Hope he succeeds in his synth, and then I'll have to pay him for his time/skill.
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#17 Nov 21 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
If I'm out there with my group, as the one lancer. And we kill a NM that drops an item that only makes a spearhead, I'm going to have to go find a crafter who can actually make the item. Trade him my rare item. Hope he succeeds in his synth, and then I'll have to pay him for his time/skill.


Unless of course your LS has a dedicated crafter of that discipline.

If NMs dropped all or mostly rare ingredients, it would give LSes an incentive to recruit non-combat classes and for people who only leveled crafting classes to not be left out of a huge part of the game.
#18 Nov 21 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
Dropping rare materials for crafting instead of final items would be great.
#19 Nov 21 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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I guess NM drop special gears with average stats and require crafters to upgrade it.
#20 Nov 21 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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NMs didn't. Destroy crafting in XI. What did was the fact that nothing was boe. When you stop getting new players and almost none of the crafted gear ever leaves the economy you reach a point of saturation.


The only thing that made crafting worth it in XI was HQs and consumables almost everything else was sold at a loss.


I worry that crafting in XIV is going to go the same way. They put in gear wear thinking it would keep crafters useful for the long hall but there's still thhe problem of gear never leaving the economy.



Maybe someday SE will stop trying to be different and just go with boe gear. It works very well. The market is always in need of fresh gear which in turn keeps crafters useful.



#21 Nov 21 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Like others already said, I have a strong feeling that open world NM will drop mats to create items.

If they present the option to hunt NM through Guildleves (like faction leves) the reward or drop from the final NM should be a Rare/Ex item for that player.
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#22 Nov 21 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
rikkuotaku wrote:
Shijou, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:
It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.


Good point. Followup question:

Do any monsters currently in FFXIV drop wearable equipment?

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 1:10pm by rikkuotaku


Yeah, mid-level Skeletons can drop Skull Eyepatch if you incapacitate their head.
There's another monster that can drop an upgradable shield, I think it's as a result of a gladiator incapacitation. Don't remember much about this one.
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#23 Nov 21 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
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i think ffxiv nms will drop mats to make special armor but not armor or weps

seeing as nothing in game drops armor or weps i doubt nm's will
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#24 Nov 21 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't know that NMs destroyed crafting in FFXI.
#25 Nov 21 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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We already have some items in the game that are dropped off a mob and used as material. The 'Worm-eaten Square Shield' is a unique shield dropped off a mob and is used in the recipe for a 'Vintage Square Shield'.

So bringing in unique items that are usable but can be upgraded and made better would keep things even. Oh, and those NM dropped items will still need to be repaired, so lets hope these super rare gear won't need a super rare item to be repaired.
#26 Nov 21 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Snicklefritze wrote:
NMs didn't. Destroy crafting in XI. What did was the fact that nothing was boe. When you stop getting new players and almost none of the crafted gear ever leaves the economy you reach a point of saturation.


The only thing that made crafting worth it in XI was HQs and consumables almost everything else was sold at a loss.


I worry that crafting in XIV is going to go the same way. They put in gear wear thinking it would keep crafters useful for the long hall but there's still the problem of gear never leaving the economy.



Maybe someday SE will stop trying to be different and just go with boe gear. It works very well. The market is always in need of fresh gear which in turn keeps crafters useful.






While I think it's debatable whether things would have been better if items were Bind on Equip, there's no doubt that for crafters, the economy of crafting was absolutely upside down. You took major losses if you didn't HQ your item.

The game is still very new and crafters are still just barely establishing themselves, but I worry that the +2s and 3s will be like the HQs of XI in the future.
#27 Nov 21 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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It doesn't make any sense for a Lizard to drop a pair of boots.

Let's not argue that it doesn't make any sense for magic to be magic, simply because another world has another set of rules, doesn't mean you still can't break that circle and sense of immersion by something that breaks those rules. In Eorzea, lizards do not wear boots, just like they don't wear boots on Earth.

So, it would make a lot more sense for the Lizard to drop special materials that are then crafted into boots. What is this nonsense about crafting being broken in FFXI because of NMs, crafting in FFXI is probably healthier than crafting in most other MMOs, or at least was, Abyssea may have done away with that, but the game is in its "golden years" now, so who cares - during the prime age of that game crafting was not broken in any way.

Also, what do you mean no reason to level DoW/M? Why do you think it took so long for certain recipes to be discovered and to be able to be made, things that use materials like Raptor Sinew etc? Because the DoW/M needed to be high enough to kill those and then get enough of them to sell and infuse into the economy. The relationship between the disciplines is symbiotic: W/M and L gather materials that H need, H creates equipment for them.

If ANYTHING Notorious Monsters will put power in the hands of W/M because they will drop unique materials used for CRAFTING gear as well, and the only way a DoH who doesn't play a combat skill can get those is to purchase them from you. I honestly expect even HNM and end game content to mostly drop unfinished products and materials that are "bound to company" or some such, where company crafters can make those into gear. It would make a lot of sense, considering they talked about company shared items. And I'd honestly prefer this, it would give crafters a significant role in a company, just as necessary as the W/M for raid content, not MORE necessary.

Anyone saying artisan classes have too much power is just far too used to the standard MMORPG philosophy of crafting being something you do on the side, a hobby that may result in an occasional useful item and a +50 boost to stamina. Just because crafting is more important than you are used to, doesn't mean that it's more important than combat.
#28 Nov 21 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
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It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.


What? Where in FFXI do finished products drop? Once in a while an odd weapon would drop but the better more complicated gear is usually crafted.

As far as I know Scorpion Harness is made out of a Vclaw which is dropped then that is used to craft into a SH..?
Haubergeon is made out of Damascus Ingot which is an NM drop then is used to craft the hauby.
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#29 Nov 21 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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ketrel wrote:
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It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.


What? Where in FFXI do finished products drop? Once in a while an odd weapon would drop but the better more complicated gear is usually crafted.

As far as I know Scorpion Harness is made out of a Vclaw which is dropped then that is used to craft into a SH..?
Haubergeon is made out of Damascus Ingot which is an NM drop then is used to craft the hauby.


I don't understand, did you play FFXI? I mean, yes, some NMs drop materials, but a much higher number drop finished items...

Bounding Boots, Empress Hairpin, Ochidou's Kote, Shinobi Kyahan, Byakko's Haidate, Algol, Allkalurops, Kirin's Osode, Pilgrim's Wand, &c., &c., &c.

In no particular order, those are just a handful of finished items that drop off of NMs, HNMs, ZNMs from pretty much all level ranges.
#30 Nov 21 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
ketrel wrote:
Quote:
It would be interesting if NMs dropped materials rather than actual armor, like a Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon from FFXI.


What? Where in FFXI do finished products drop? Once in a while an odd weapon would drop but the better more complicated gear is usually crafted.

As far as I know Scorpion Harness is made out of a Vclaw which is dropped then that is used to craft into a SH..?
Haubergeon is made out of Damascus Ingot which is an NM drop then is used to craft the hauby.


I worded it strange I know, but yes, that's what I was saying. Most people understood my poor English, at least.
And as the post above said, most items that dropped in FFXI were actual finished armor.
Exceptions were the stuff I mentioned, and things like abjurations and whatnot.
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#31 Nov 21 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Good point. Followup question:

Do any monsters currently in FFXIV drop wearable equipment?

Skeletons drop eyepatches.
Faction quest NM's 'drop' a treasure chest with the gear inside, might not count.

Thats as much as i found out about before quitting.

Quote:
In Eorzea, lizards do not wear boots, just like they don't wear boots on Earth.

If we're gonna start using realism to dictate monster drops, then really why should only 1/20 squirrel kills have a marmot hide. They're all wearing one... Copy/paste for every other monster part.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:25pm by RattyBatty
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#32 Nov 21 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I see this topic coming up frequently. First off, NM gear absolutely killed off crafting in XI, however this happened mainly later in the game. Crafting started going downhill after ToAU was released (at the time, I had a 99 Clothcrafter). Cooking, Alchemy and Fishing are currently still viable crafts in FFXI due to consumables.

My view on NMs in this game is pretty similiar. If SE makes ANY fully completed items available from non-faction point NMs, it will kill the market for crafted gear (not repairs, and not consumables). I think it's obvious that there are A LOT of players who enjoy playing DoH... how upset do you think the crafters are going to be if they have no reason to craft equipment? Here are some of my observations:

1. There isn't a reason to get different sets of gear if you're just gonna grind SP. Unfortunately, PVE MMOs have become the type of game where gear doesn't mean anything until the cap. It's most likely that this game will be no different. Stats from gear barely do anything now, and lets not even talk about the point allotment system.

2. Why spend the time and money to get any kind of crafted item if you can just aim to get better gear from NMs? Especially since the NM system pretty much feels like the only content we'll have for awhile.

3. If they make NMs exclusively available via faction leves by using faction points, I'll be the first to call the content update a total failure. Grinding out a month of leves for faction so you can fight one battle.

4. Open world NM does not mean free roaming NM. I wish people would let that sink in. Forced spawn NMs, FFXI's VNM & ZNM system are ALL open world NMs. In fact, I have a strong feeling they will mimic FFXI's VNM system, or maybe the NM system in Abyssea (which is amazing). This will alleviate most issues with spawn camping, botting, etc. Just having a free roaming NM drop rare/ex gear doesn't solve anything. RMT can sell the lot rights and it can still (and will be) monopolized if it's a desirable item.

I would like to see every single one of these methods be available with the NM update:

A. NMs can spawn randomly in any battlecraft leve. NMs will only drop mats.

B. NMs & HNMs that can be fought with faction points, like the BCNM system in FFXI. Due to the large amount of faction points (and leve grinding) required for the hunt, these should drop full gear. If not full gear, then upgradable gear.

C. Single forced-spawn NMs. The pop items can be found in leves and in the field from other mobs... possibly crafted pop items too! NMs will only drop mats.

D. Tiered forced-spawn HNM system. This will most likely be like ZNMs, VNMs or Abyssea... or all three :D NMs will only drop mats.

I want crafting to continue to be big part of the game, even though I loathe the repair system, I still enjoy the process and socializing with other crafters. SE needs to keep these players happy, because it seems to be a big chunk of their playerbase.

My 2 gil.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:28pm by SilkWyrm
#33 Nov 21 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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RattyBatty wrote:
Quote:
Good point. Followup question:

Do any monsters currently in FFXIV drop wearable equipment?

Skeletons drop eyepatches.
Faction quest NM's 'drop' a treasure chest with the gear inside, might not count.

Thats as much as i found out about before quitting.

Quote:
In Eorzea, lizards do not wear boots, just like they don't wear boots on Earth.

If we're gonna start using realism to dictate monster drops, then really why should only 1/20 squirrel kills have a marmot hide. They're all wearing one... Copy/paste for every other monster part.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:25pm by RattyBatty


How often if you slash/light on fire a small animal are you going to get a pelt worth using to make anything?

Anyways, it's not comparable, it's not "realism" it's believability, there's a difference between the two. A great axe being dropped by a mouse is FAR LESS believable and pulls you out of the world a lot more than only getting useable meat from a handful of them. Whenever anyone makes an argument about believability, someone always counters with a contrived, horribly unrelated argument about realism and it generally boils down to "It's a game hurf de durp - nothing has to make sense." I'm afraid that is false, tolerances for unbelievable mechanics are always going down, and so called "next-gen" (which is a horrible misnomer at this point) gaming isn't simply about snazzy graphics, but about progressive mechanics and pushing design forward as well.
#34 Nov 21 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Anyways, it's not comparable, it's not "realism" it's believability, there's a difference between the two. A great axe being dropped by a mouse is FAR LESS believable and pulls you out of the world a lot more than only getting useable meat from a handful of them. Whenever anyone makes an argument about believability, someone always counters with a contrived, horribly unrelated argument about realism and it generally boils down to "It's a game hurf de durp - nothing has to make sense." I'm afraid that is false, tolerances for unbelievable mechanics are always going down, and so called "next-gen" (which is a horrible misnomer at this point) gaming isn't simply about snazzy graphics, but about progressive mechanics and pushing design forward as well.


I think you're grasping at straws - monster drops have never once pulled me out of a game world. A cockroach could drop a Buick and as long as the game was fun and engaging I would never care.

This notion that mob drops need to have some sort of realism balance to them is just absurd. If it makes FFXIV 10,000x more fun to have marmots drop great axes, I say let them drop.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 7:21pm by Whales
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#35 Nov 21 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I dont see why NM's wouldnt drop gear... Similar to how faction leves can drop gear. Said FL Gear is base gear which can be upgraded by crafting. Such as this which upgrades to this.
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#36 Nov 21 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
I think you're grasping at straws - monster drops have never once pulled me out of a game world. A cockroach could drop a Buick and as long as the game was fun and engaging I would never care.

Game designers do care (and wouldn't let a mouse drop a Buick :D). You're free to ignore the immersion but don't think that these kind of decisions don't have a lot of reasoning behind them.
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#37 Nov 21 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Considering all of the levequest-awarded gear is gear that can also be crafted, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what NMs dropped as well.

But at the same time, I'm kind of hoping they do something similar to what LOTRO does, where NMs don't drop gear or rare materials suited to specific items (ie. Zomfg Ore which can only be used to make Zomfg spears, swords, and axes but not for caster stuff or armor). Instead, every "rare" mob drops a specific kind of crafting reagent based on the level of the mob and that reagent is used in recipes for literally all different kinds of gear so that you can have gear made with that reagent whether you're a caster or a physical damage class, tank or healer, whatever...didn't matter. And the quality of gear made with this reagent was typically a step higher than the stuff made with run-of-the-mill ingredients.

The benefit to this kind of system is that it kept crafting relevant, and while the reagent items could be quite valuable when traded amongst players, it was impossible for RMT to monopolize them. If, for example, you have a half dozen or more rare mobs in every zone that all drop this reagent based entirely on the level of the mob, it's impossible for RMT to camp them all.

So for example, you could have 4-5 rank 1-10 NMs in the areas around Camp Bearded Rock, Camp Bentbranch and Camp Black Brush and all of them drop a Blue Aether Fragment every time they are killed and those Fragments are required for recipes that produce some above-average rank 7-12 gear, everyone is happy. RMT can't cover all that ground, you don't have to target any one specific NM to get your Fragment, and crafters remain relevant at all times. Do the same thing for the areas around Skull Valley, Drybone, and Emerald Moss with rank 11-20 NMs that drop Green Aether Fragments that are used to make some nice rank 17-22 gear. The only people who wouldn't be happy about this are the ones who want ready-made gear drops, but it worked in LOTRO and left the nice ready-made stuff as rewards from other sources that couldn't be monopolized and/or didn't require camping for hours on end.
#38 Nov 21 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Whales wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Anyways, it's not comparable, it's not "realism" it's believability, there's a difference between the two. A great axe being dropped by a mouse is FAR LESS believable and pulls you out of the world a lot more than only getting useable meat from a handful of them. Whenever anyone makes an argument about believability, someone always counters with a contrived, horribly unrelated argument about realism and it generally boils down to "It's a game hurf de durp - nothing has to make sense." I'm afraid that is false, tolerances for unbelievable mechanics are always going down, and so called "next-gen" (which is a horrible misnomer at this point) gaming isn't simply about snazzy graphics, but about progressive mechanics and pushing design forward as well.


I think you're grasping at straws - monster drops have never once pulled me out of a game world. A cockroach could drop a Buick and as long as the game was fun and engaging I would never care.

This notion that mob drops need to have some sort of realism balance to them is just absurd. If it makes FFXIV 10,000x more fun to have marmots drop great axes, I say let them drop.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 7:21pm by Whales


Docent42 basically said everything I wanted to say, but it's true, and I'll reiterate, just because you have no sense of immersion in a world doesn't mean that no one does, game designers craft experiences - part of that experience is immersion, it's difficult to create immersion in games with heavy amounts of abstracted mechanics, which is what MMOs generally are, which is why un-abstracting some of these systems (I.E. stopping monsters from dropping things that don't make sense) is a step (albeit a small one) in the right direction.

Aurelius wrote:
Considering all of the levequest-awarded gear is gear that can also be crafted, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what NMs dropped as well.

But at the same time, I'm kind of hoping they do something similar to what LOTRO does, where NMs don't drop gear or rare materials suited to specific items (ie. Zomfg Ore which can only be used to make Zomfg spears, swords, and axes but not for caster stuff or armor). Instead, every "rare" mob drops a specific kind of crafting reagent based on the level of the mob and that reagent is used in recipes for literally all different kinds of gear so that you can have gear made with that reagent whether you're a caster or a physical damage class, tank or healer, whatever...didn't matter. And the quality of gear made with this reagent was typically a step higher than the stuff made with run-of-the-mill ingredients.

The benefit to this kind of system is that it kept crafting relevant, and while the reagent items could be quite valuable when traded amongst players, it was impossible for RMT to monopolize them. If, for example, you have a half dozen or more rare mobs in every zone that all drop this reagent based entirely on the level of the mob, it's impossible for RMT to camp them all.

So for example, you could have 4-5 rank 1-10 NMs in the areas around Camp Bearded Rock, Camp Bentbranch and Camp Black Brush and all of them drop a Blue Aether Fragment every time they are killed and those Fragments are required for recipes that produce some above-average rank 7-12 gear, everyone is happy. RMT can't cover all that ground, you don't have to target any one specific NM to get your Fragment, and crafters remain relevant at all times. Do the same thing for the areas around Skull Valley, Drybone, and Emerald Moss with rank 11-20 NMs that drop Green Aether Fragments that are used to make some nice rank 17-22 gear. The only people who wouldn't be happy about this are the ones who want ready-made gear drops, but it worked in LOTRO and left the nice ready-made stuff as rewards from other sources that couldn't be monopolized and/or didn't require camping for hours on end.


I have some friends who work at Turbine that would probably not be happy if I said that seems like a bad idea, but I won't because LOTRO and FFXIV are two different games, what works for one may not work for the other.

The problem I see with your system is this: (And I haven't played much of LOTRO so it may be that I'm making an assumption) if "rare spawns" in LOTRO are how I imagine they are, similar to rare spawns in WoW, (which drop random rare items from around that level usually, or insignificant unique pieces) the problem is all those mobs become forgettable, and no one ever actually knows who they are, where they spawn or cares about them whatsoever. The half second peaked interest of "oh it's a rare spawn" /demolish/loot/go_on_with_life doesn't compare to the sense of accomplishment of tracking down that Notorious Monster and getting that specific material you need to make that loot you want.

Sure, itemization is important so that we don't have a repeat of VE and LL, where some NMs are basically worthless and some are overcamped to ****, but even when tackling an NM in a point based system like VNMs or ZNMs, there is a very specific goal in mind, tracking down that NM that has that thing you want. You come to know the NM, and they're usually a challenging fight. I've played a lot of WoW, and I couldn't name a single rare spawn off the top of my head, I could name dozens and dozens of FFXI NMs though. "Notorious" should mean something.

I do agree the NM system in FFXI was flawed to a degree, and I don't mind loot materials that are useful for more than one thing, but I don't think it needs to just be "tiered" general materials, otherwise every NM is the same as every other one, and it's only by "stumbling" upon them that anyone will get those materials practically. I like the idea of setting your sights on a specific enemy and pursuing them.
#39 Nov 21 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
I have some friends who work at Turbine that would probably not be happy if I said that seems like a bad idea, but I won't because LOTRO and FFXIV are two different games, what works for one may not work for the other.

The problem I see with your system is this: (And I haven't played much of LOTRO so it may be that I'm making an assumption) if "rare spawns" in LOTRO are how I imagine they are, similar to rare spawns in WoW, (which drop random rare items from around that level usually, or insignificant unique pieces) the problem is all those mobs become forgettable, and no one ever actually knows who they are, where they spawn or cares about them whatsoever. The half second peaked interest of "oh it's a rare spawn" /demolish/loot/go_on_with_life doesn't compare to the sense of accomplishment of tracking down that Notorious Monster and getting that specific material you need to make that loot you want.

Sure, itemization is important so that we don't have a repeat of VE and LL, where some NMs are basically worthless and some are overcamped to ****, but even when tackling an NM in a point based system like VNMs or ZNMs, there is a very specific goal in mind, tracking down that NM that has that thing you want. You come to know the NM, and they're usually a challenging fight. I've played a lot of WoW, and I couldn't name a single rare spawn off the top of my head, I could name dozens and dozens of FFXI NMs though. "Notorious" should mean something.

I do agree the NM system in FFXI was flawed to a degree, and I don't mind loot materials that are useful for more than one thing, but I don't think it needs to just be "tiered" general materials, otherwise every NM is the same as every other one, and it's only by "stumbling" upon them that anyone will get those materials practically. I like the idea of setting your sights on a specific enemy and pursuing them.


People camp rare spawns in LOTRO. The difference between that and a game like FFXI, however, is that if your initial target's spawn area is overcamped, you can go elsewhere. People developed their favorites and mobs that they'd camp for hours and hours because the shards sold for a decent amount of gold and they could frequently get a camp all to themselves. The difficulty with trying to make NMs "memorable" based on the rewards they offer is that...you make them memorable based on the rewards they offer. Your not making memorable content, you're making sought after rewards. I'll take an entertaining process over a zomfgreward any day.
#40 Nov 21 2010 at 11:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand, did you play FFXI? I mean, yes, some NMs drop materials, but a much higher number drop finished items...

Bounding Boots, Empress Hairpin, Ochidou's Kote, Shinobi Kyahan, Byakko's Haidate, Algol, Allkalurops, Kirin's Osode, Pilgrim's Wand, &c., &c., &c.

In no particular order, those are just a handful of finished items that drop off of NMs, HNMs, ZNMs from pretty much all level ranges.


Oh I guess me meant rare ex items... thats why he mentioned SH and hauby.... but yea I see how I miss understood the wording. Yeah I played ffxi longer then you knew of its existence.
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#41 Nov 22 2010 at 3:40 AM Rating: Decent
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No.

Why?

Its much easier to craft in XIV then it is in XI. Crafting in XI is hard to profit from unless you farm the items or manage to get a low price for something to craft and sell it for high.

XIV has Craft Leves, Free, Easy to use and Easy to skill and you get rewards for it.

I cant stand crafting in XI, it takes a while to get jobs to 10 and in XIV the only reason it takes a while because you have to wait for the leve reset.

You get skill ups even for a failed synth and when you complete a synth you get EXP too.
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#42 Nov 22 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Default
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
Discuss.




God I can only hope so
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#43 Nov 22 2010 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Can anyone name me a game where crafting stayed useful? I can't think of even one. They were all useful for a minute ans sporadically throughout expansion but never again aside from a few niche things that were overcamped.
#44 Nov 22 2010 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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zoltanrs wrote:
Can anyone name me a game where crafting stayed useful? I can't think of even one. They were all useful for a minute ans sporadically throughout expansion but never again aside from a few niche things that were overcamped.


until recently ff11
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#45 Nov 22 2010 at 5:20 AM Rating: Decent
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As a crafter I still have a soft spot for NM gear, be it the warm feeling after kiling the NM or just the reputation that comes from wearing certain gear.

While reading the whole thread an idea came to me, why not allow NM to drop finished or unfinished gear but have a generalisation and call it all Legenday Gear and associate a set number of legendary points for each gear? You then set a limit for each player which will enable the gear to be in place for those that really want it but restrict the ammount of gear each player can hold.

In the end is kind of the same system we now have for accessories but aplicable to NM drops or Legenday Gear.
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#46 Nov 22 2010 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Bounding Boots, Empress Hairpin, Ochidou's Kote, Shinobi Kyahan, Byakko's Haidate, Algol, Allkalurops, Kirin's Osode, Pilgrim's Wand, &c., &c., &c.


How could you leave the Assault Jerkin off your list... I camped that god damned Corel for weeks :P

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 6:42am by M0RZA
#47 Nov 22 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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ketrel wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand, did you play FFXI? I mean, yes, some NMs drop materials, but a much higher number drop finished items...

Bounding Boots, Empress Hairpin, Ochidou's Kote, Shinobi Kyahan, Byakko's Haidate, Algol, Allkalurops, Kirin's Osode, Pilgrim's Wand, &c., &c., &c.

In no particular order, those are just a handful of finished items that drop off of NMs, HNMs, ZNMs from pretty much all level ranges.


Oh I guess me meant rare ex items... thats why he mentioned SH and hauby.... but yea I see how I miss understood the wording. Yeah I played ffxi longer then you knew of its existence.


Me meant? He mentioned? Are you talking in third person...?

I also don't understand your comment about rare/ex items, some of the items I listed where Rare/EX some were not, there is no correlation.

Also, what the **** are you talking about playing FFXI longer than 'I knew of its existence?' I've been playing for 8 years, considering I watched the first trailer shown for the game the day it was released, I seriously doubt you've been playing longer than I've known about it.

Troll much?
#48 Nov 22 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
Discuss.

It really irks me when people do this. Hey guys I want to start a conversation but I don't want to have any thoughtful input...it makes you seem, well, stupid.

That being said, I guess I too missed the memo that NMs destroyed crafting since I made a lot of money on my 100 WW mule (HQ staves ftw!).
#49 Nov 22 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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NMs didn't ruin crafting in FFXI.
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#50 Nov 22 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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The RMT did, pretty much.

No wonder they're so careful about it here.
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#51MclarenTAGPorsche, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 12:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You and others that are posting to flame are being reported. Keep on Subject. If your opinion is different don't post in this topic just to offend or bash. Its not a question about what happened in ff11, its an affirmative. For those who didn't understand that, avoid wasting your time posting in anger because you disagree.
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