Here's the critical difference between Grinding and Crafting. Crafting involves staring at a wall hitting a button for hours on end, and this never changes. It is completely mindless.
Apparently you are speaking out of pure ignorance of crafting at anything above levels 1-10...
First off, you have to choose which of your crafting abilities to set based on what you are synthing. Personally, since I cover the gamut of crafts and have a wide variety of choices, I go with Tender Touch, Fulfillment, and Preserve if I'm going for a harder synth (to gain more SP) and if I'm going for the pluses on a lower synth, I set abilities like Epiphany which improve bold synths to raise quality. Others will tell you they jam through with Hasty Hand just trying to get the work done.
Now when you are in the synth, your set actions will not always be there (they pop randomly), and sometimes more than one will pop at a time. You have to choose which action, when available, is appropriate given your current amount of progress, your remaining durability, the current risk state of the synth, and the amount of durability you lose on a failure for each of the primary 4 options (which also requires attention and needs to be assessed on-the-fly)... and you have to do so within the couple of seconds before you fail that round. Do you play it safe or go for the gold? Are you willing to risk getting 1/2 SP and no XP and the loss of mats/shards for no material return in order to improve the SP/XP gain on a success?
It is HARDLY mindless.
Grinding (at least in a proper game) involves a sense of adventure and strategy--visiting new locations, fighting a variety of mobs with a variety of attacks--solving the puzzle of killing them efficiently--enjoying a variety of increasingly powerful abilities and equipment--cooperating with a team in a strategic manner. Admittedly XIV is missing a lot of that atm, but in general, that is why grinding is more enjoyable than crafting for most people.
Well, let's see, you're claiming "in a proper game" inferring that XIV is not one (at least not atm)...
Then a list of traits which you have already discounted as not being present, and therefore not applicable to the argument at hand....
Then an "in general" "more" "most"... again, really like to know where your figures are coming from... whom did you poll? Was it a "Most grinders prefer to grind" poll?
Why can't you just say, "This is my opinion/this is how I feel", hmmm? Trust me, I'm not going to hold it against you. Making claims without evidence so you can hide your opinion behind a wall of "general consensus" doesn't strengthen your argument.
Like I said, I like going out and fighting stuff... no, I hate grinding (bad term) but I like xping (good term) (I swear I'm going to fight the meaningless use of the word "grind" to infer ANY sp/xp gaining over long periods). You aren't telling me anything I don't know about the good points of going out and killing mobs. But I'm also well aware of the bad points that you are glossing over, as well as the good points of crafting that you are also choosing to gloss over, either out of ignorance, or obstinance.
SE has tried to introduce some of those aspects into crafting (and perhaps they will succeed some day, many updates into the future), but thus far, I feel they have failed pretty miserably and exposed most of their efforts as nothing but shameless time sinks (deliveries, grinding sub crafts for simple abilities, etc...).
Okay... at least in the middle you copped to an opinion...
Problem is, the first part of this statement is opinion as well, and clearly (from the first point above) you were not looking objectively at the system or at least not from a well-informed perspective.
Regarding "shameless" timesinks, what do you think an MMO is? A game where players subscriptions are meant to be protracted out to develop a revenue stream. They string you along with updates or expansions featuring new classes or races, and even higher level caps... to spend months more of your time playing, and keep the stream flowing. That's just the nature of the beast here. It is not "pay your $60 and beat it in 3 hours game" (had 2 friends at karaoke Friday night complain about beating two different, and very popular, titles that way).
Deliveries? ... really? Your lead point in your lengthy (sarcasm) list of offenses... would you like the long or the longer list of MMO featuring quests with deliveries of X to Y? The new thing is, that allowing crafters to make deliveries, means that they get in on that aspect of the questy-goodness which has previously been only reserved for combat classes (which you glossed over).
I refuse to use the g-word for this... Ranking or Leveling a second class is not JUST done for "simple abilities". To begin with, if someone LIKES crafting why would you assume that their like is limited only to a specific craft: "Man, I love armorer but I hate blacksmithing! GOLDSMITH! That can go straight to ****!" Certainly, within the set-up of a particular MMO (including this one) there are nuances between the crafts that might turn one person toward or away from this or that craft. But in your argument here, those nuances are "facts not in evidence".
Your third point... doesn't exist, or at least its existence is a "fact not in evidence".
You don't like the crafting system as a whole, and that's fine. You've stated your distaste for it, and that's fine. You don't want to do it, and that's fine. However, you then make exaggerated claims regarding that system which are both logically and factually flawed, well... my opinion is that isn't fine.
Crafting is, as you say, in a lot of games, but it almost always plays a supporting role
And clearly, if you had your way, those of us who like crafting would continue to be in "supporting roles" that still HAVE to have combat jobs, rather than active and important players in the world that may forgo combat if we so desire.
and is OPTIONAL. The key word there is optional, which is where XIV gets it wrong,
In your HUMBLE opinion, I'm sure.
which I will get to now...
As for being forced, well, you tell me how you would describe it.
I have, multiple times in this thread, in reasoned arguments that are grounded in facts, and that account for the varied tastes of players who like different things.
You either craft, or you waste an exorbitant amount of time, effort, and gil repairing your weapon every hour.
This is a statement of pure opinion, hinging on the word "exorbitant", but your opinion also doesn't account for certain facts....
The first rank 50s made it in a month. Now that's clearly an unreasonable expectation for most of us with, you know, jobs, friends, families, interests other than ceaseless grinding. But you cannot argue this:
If you take that month (we won't even subtract the assumed occasional bathroom break, meals, and the biological necessity of OCCASIONAL periods of unconsciousness... aka: sleep), that is to say thirty-one days times twenty-four hours a day which is 744 hours, and subdivide it into smaller portions of time that fit your schedule (ex. 3 hours a day on weekdays, 5 hours a day on weekends, weekly total of 25 hours; actually modest play by some standards) then you can figure out how quickly you COULD hit rank 50. (Per the example: 25 hours a week, into 744 hours is 29.76... let's just say 30, weeks)
However, simply doing it by the numbers like this would be ignoring certain advantages (other than the aforementioned disregard for time needed for biological necessities) you have that the first rank 50s did not have.
In 31 days there are 20 leve-resets... the example, being spread over 30 weeks, gets a whopping 140. That is SEVEN TIMES as many opportunities for gil, items, and the occasion gear reward than the first 50s had... your results may vary.
Guardian's Aspect... same thing... the more concentrated amount of time you play, the less you have of it in your equation.
Anima... same thing... the more you spread out your playtime, the more you will recieve to make use of to cut down on travel times.
Available equipment and upgrades... have you gotten all of your gear from leve drops? If so, most of your eq would probably be incorrect for your class and/or rank and thus would be prone to breakage, and you wouldn't have been getting the best results from them. You have crafters available now that can make gear... but you have to occasionally interact with them to get what you need.... something I'm guessing you don't do for people in "supporting roles" (cuz you're the BIG STAR aren't you?)
As you stated gil as a concern, and the first 50s opportunities for gil from leves was highly restricted, then you have to look at the only four other ways to earn gil...
A) Fighting mobs that drop gil: also highly limited, but not impossible to obtain in this manner once you reach certain areas.
B) Selling loot to players: As they raced forward and started getting "Flaming Blade of Asswhoopin'" drops, they would have difficulty finding buyers who either needed or could offer a substantial sum for those items... they would have to just take what they could get... but spending time seeking buyers, or standing idle around the repair NPC was clearly not acceptable to them. Now they could have (and this is just a factual statement about the existence of a possibility, not a claim of what they did) sold the LOADS of shards/crystals that they were earning (and, at least at first, they were limited to stacks of 999) to crafters at prices the crafters could afford and made their money by moving large volumes quickly.
C) Vendor-trashing loot: highly time-efficient (no searching for a buyer there, you already know where they are, and if you needed to visit the vendor to buy something... like the Archer's stacks and stacks and stacks of Warped Arrows, then you are consolidating your time expenditure) and believe it or not, this can get you substantial sums of money (it's how I made my millions).
D) Crafting loot into more valuable commodities and THEN taking option B or C: obviously not their chosen path.... NOBODY with a sound rational mind is going to attempt to level a crafting job when they are aiming for ranking a combat class to 50 as quickly as possible... you do not get a return of gil that can make up for the time and materials spent, let alone the fact that after increasing the value you STILL have to find a buyer.
As far as "effort"... clearly all of the first 50s effort went into reaching 50 as quickly as possible. My effort has gone into playing all jobs. I have no idea what you are putting your efforts into, other than a lost argument.
It is unrealistic to expect you will always party with someone of a certain craft and rank, or that your friends or ls will be able to provide such services at your beck and call.
Yes, you are correct... that is why there is a repair NPC that covers all levels of every type of gear (except jewlry) conveniently located in every major city. That NPC is at your beck and call, for FUNCTIONAL but not FULL repairs. Not to beat a dead horse about it... but who do you think the first 50s went to for repairs? Beyond a certain point no crafter would have had the skill to repair the gear they were wearing, let alone what it would have cost them in time to repeatedly remove and place their damaged gear in their bazaars, wait for each repair-synth to complete, and then re-don their equipment.
You can argue semantics all you want,
Good, because I neither want to... nor do I feel the need to in order to prove my point.
but when the alternatives are so unreasonable it makes the game unplayable, yea I would define that as forced.
So... let me get this straight...
You don't like crafting (opinion)
You feel that the alternatives are unreasonable (opinion)
You feel that it makes the game unplayable (opinion... and... you know it's coming... first 50s)
You would define it as forced (opinion... but an opinion regarding a word that ACTUALLY has a standard definition)
YOU are the one playing semantics.
Some of you guys need to learn to distinguish between literal and figurative (so to speak), cause this one gets regurgitated every time someone dares mention force and craft in the same sentence. The point is always about being effectively forced, not literally.
I think you could use a lesson in the difference between literal and figurative yourself... because your arguments are invalid in EITHER case...
Literal - someone is physically making you move your mouse and press the buttons to craft. (no one has argured this)
Figurative - you are being required to craft or face an unreasonable consequence. (which part exactly is unreasonable? Other than the made-up stuff? That you have to pay for repairs... no, that's not unreasonable. That there is a functional option available 24/7... nope, not that. That it will somehow keep you from reaching endgame? No, because that's not true *cough*first50s*cough*)
Sure, I employ a bit of hyperbole to get a point across,
i.e. You make sh*t up while trying to express your personal opinions as facts.
but I think even you would agree it's not unreasonable to assume the forced craft/repair systems (or perception of such, if you prefer) was a major factor for many people that have quit.
Then you thought wrong... again. And thanks for proving my point above. As I recall, the primarily quoted major factors were laggy/clunky/not-user-friendly UI, and lack of content.
---"Was it the sole or primary reason? For some yes, for others, no."---
So it wasn't the "sole" or "primary" reason, but it was a "major factor"?!? What is this information based on........ oh, right, your previously stated distaste for crafting and your ability to make sh*t up.
---"Do I think this game could maintain the player base of WoW with the current craft/repair requirements? Absolutely not, which was the point I was getting at with prospective players."---
Yes, more of your opinions, based on ... (we know the answer at this point... don't we)
The first 50s, quite simply, did not craft. They did not need to, and neither do you. Their accomplishment, the facts that ARE in evidence, directly contradict your arguments which are based on NOTHING other than YOUR OPINIONS and made-up suppositions about what everyone else thinks, and stuff that you seem to excavate from your large intestine as you go...
But you know what? Even if they did think it was "forced" it would STILL be opinion and it would still be based on a personal definition of the word "forced" and it would still be ignorant of the FACTS.
You do NOT have to craft. If you do not like to craft, fine. However, your problem is with the fact that your gear gets damaged over time, eventually incurring penalties, and requires repair... repairs from someone who knows how to make that gear. Thus not forcing you to craft, but forcing you to interact with crafters but ONLY if you will not settle for the FUNCTIONAL 75% repair. And if you do NOT want to interact with people (and gods, at this point, I can see the benefits in that... for the crafters) AND you do not want to settle for 75% then yes, you do need to craft. But that is by no reasonable rational means being FORCED into it, even by your own definiton, because you have two other viable options, you just don't like them.
And... one last note before I am just done with this thread: as far as the repair system ENCOURAGING combat classes to interact with crafters as though, you know, they were in some sort of community together... I believe...
"That is working as intended"...
... but you are not.
edited to add quotation marks Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 3:31am by AilysFoxglove