Forum Settings
       
This thread is locked

FFXIV punishes those who dislike craftingFollow

#52 Nov 21 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
*
213 posts
I vote no more arguing about the time it takes to craft! my only complaint about these forums... srsly people, give it a rest.
____________________________


#53 Nov 21 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
*
90 posts
Furia wrote:
To me, it seems like common sense that a vast majority of the general public is not going to enjoy a dirt simple menu and prompt driven crafting system that is as repetitive as working an assembly line and has a lot in common with watching paint dry. Regardless of what my opinion is on something, it's pretty obvious when something is going to be an acquired or minority taste, and XIV's crafting system is definitely one. Historically, it's clear crafting is not an enjoyable aspect for most people, you need only look at most MMO's or SE's own XI for evidence, where the vast majority of players simply don't engage in it. Why do you think SE is doing everything in their power to force crafting on players in the first place? It is a disliked mechanic.


Underlined: Replace the word "crafting" with "grinding"... it really is the same thing, honestly (from reading other threads commenting on grinding sessions consisting of pressing the 1-key repeatedly for hours, I would actually hazard that grinding is MORE repetitive). Yet people still find some enjoyment in going out and "grinding" (and I use quotes because grinding is supposed to be the unenjoyable part of xping, but people seem to say "grind" for everything nowadays... just depressing to me) while others find enjoyment in crafting. Crafters synth and synth and synth, and then rank up so they can synth bigger and better things. "Grinders" (not the sandwich though... mmm, delicious sandwich) grind and grind and grind, and then rank up so they can grind bigger and better things.

Bold: Historically, it's clear MMOs are not an enjoyable aspect for most people, the vast majority of people simply don't engage in it... and (I didn't quote it, but you should get the reference) asking MMO-players if they like playing MMOs is like going to a Mexican restaurant and asking if they like Mexican food.
And as far as XI goes... whether or not most people chose to engage in it... it never seemed to stop them from buying my Meat Mithkabobs from the AH, so they may not have taken part in the labor, but they enjoyed the fruits of my labor because it helped them to do what they liked to do.

Italicized: Was crafting forced on me? Hmm... coulda sworn that I CHOSE to do it. SE must have put some subliminal messages in their advertising, because I recall talking with my friend about who would do which craft BEFORE I even bought the game! Thank you for setting me straight for believing that I liked such a "disliked mechanic". We need to spread the word! Did you know there are people in guildhalls RIGHT THIS SECOND just crafting away, unaware that they actually HATE what they're doing! :P

Look, I craft and I gather and I go out and fight mobs. I actually enjoy them all. What is nice about XIV, as opposed to say, XI which you brought up, is that when I spend time crafting here, I don't have to feel like I really needed to spend that time out fighting mobs to raise my level to keep up with anyone... which is the reason I stopped cooking on XI when I was in the low 80s for cooking, rather than taking it all the way. I LIKED cooking on XI, I LIKED joining a party and doling out the proper meals needed for their job (actually more than I liked the grinding with that party usually)... but because I hadn't quite given my ENTIRE life over to XI, I didn't have time to keep up with both.
Also now, if I want to go out and explore the world and see what is waiting for me when my combat ranks get higher, well ****, let me just switch to Botanist and I can explore and log/harvest a bit while doing so and feel like I'm still being productive... and let's not even get into the VAST improvement that XIV has shown over XI in regards to gathering.

If you don't like crafting, that's cool. It's not for you, understood.
But there's a reason just about every MMO (and a hella lot of non-line RPGs) has included some form of crafting...
So you may, if I may so humbly suggest, want to hold back some of the "obviously"s and "historically"s.
By the way, as far as the "60-70% that have already quit, or the millions of other prospective customers", unless you have some documentation saying that they quit/will not play because of crafting... then you are making a rather large and flawed leap in your logic to assume that crafting was their primary issue or even an issue at all.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan
#54 Nov 21 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Docent42 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Most 20+ crafters I know hop through all three cities every reset trying to get local leves that can award guild marks with their preferred DoH class(es).

I respect most of your posts, Aurelius, but your sample is just that; your sample.

Take me for example; I stick to one city, take all 8 regional and local leve there and end the day by taking the boat to the other city (LL < > Uldah). I only take crafting leves that take me where I plan to go hunt (or take combat leves where my crafts take me) and I pick leves from any of the 8 crafting jobs because I want to minimize my "solo content" (16 leves) and allow myself some group-time every day to just play with friends and LS-mates.

That being said with leves providing 6-8 items, and 8 leves to do, 20 minutes is unreasonable. Rjain did correct herself and say it can take 40 minutes --of crafting--, which sounds closer to my situation. Rjain, like myself, don't seem to consider the delivery time as part of doing the leve, and I agree with that way of calculating it. (I tend to get 5-6 leves that are done entirely inside ul'dah as a leatherworker, weaver and goldsmith; 3 from Roarich and 3 from Uwilsyng. That usually leaves me 2 leves for Horizon, where I go play my rank20 jobs)


The point was a response to someone who was being downright rude in there assertion that there has to be something wrong with you if it takes you 2-4 hours to complete your local leves in conjunction with their exaggerated statement about how long it takes them. I'm not saying it should take everyone 2-4 hours otherwise they're doing it wrong, I'm saying that it's entirely reasonable for it to take that long depending on what you're aiming for.
#55 Nov 21 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
320 posts
Quote:
The point was a response to someone who was being downright rude in there assertion that there has to be something wrong with you if it takes you 2-4 hours to complete your local leves in conjunction with their exaggerated statement about how long it takes them. I'm not saying it should take everyone 2-4 hours otherwise they're doing it wrong, I'm saying that it's entirely reasonable for it to take that long depending on what you're aiming for.


Here's a concept for you, it's called a joke.

Defined as:

a humorous anecdote or remark intended to provoke laughter; "he told a very funny joke"; "he knows a million gags"; "thanks for the laugh"; "he laughed unpleasantly at his own jest"; "even a schoolboy's jape is supposed to have some ascertainable point"

I won't deny being an ******* but still, lighten up. It's the internet. If I offend you, ohohohoho, watch out for some of the other stuff out there.
____________________________


#56 Nov 21 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,949 posts
Aurelius wrote:
I'm not saying it should take everyone 2-4 hours otherwise they're doing it wrong, I'm saying that it's entirely reasonable for it to take that long depending on what you're aiming for.

I totally agree with you that it can take someone 2-4 if they go to all 3 (and hopefully soon 4) cities to cherry-pick only the best leves possible. Some of my friends felt the game was FORCING them to do so, too, because they clearly only wanted to raise 1 job from leves and HAD to visit other towns to get enough leves. That was actually their choice is all I wanted to point out.
____________________________
FFXIV: Cloe Delisle Scholar, officer of the SWAGGER Free company, Sargatanas server.
#57 Nov 21 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Rjain wrote:
That's funny because if you did read my posts Aurelius you would have noticed I said I do it in 40 minutes, not 20 minutes. Had you have read the post that you even quoted a few posts up, you would have noticed that the 20 mins was originally a random statement on the "fast side of things" just counting in the crafting itself. That wasn't me saying I do it in 20 minutes all of the time. I've been saying throughout this thread that "I do not take more than an hour" and that taking more than an hour is wrong. It is you dodos that keep pressing on the stupid 20 minute thing.


Had you not been so abrasive with your (incorrect/exaggerated) assertions, I wouldn't be pushing you on what you said.

Quote:
I am a person who loves to nitpick and press on minor details, but even this is sickening me. You will argue the most mundane things incessantly without even reading what the other person says. Did you even notice my signature? You know, how I don't have any crafts up past 20 yet?


Then you should have been paying attention when I was trying to explain to you what it's like 20+ instead of making jerk comments like people must be "jerking off to their characters" if it's taking them 2-4 hours to do their local leves.

Quote:
At this point most of my leves yield 20% progress all the way through except for the ones around level 15 which are slightly more difficult. I didn't take the guild marks thing into consideration because I'm not at that point yet, but you would have noticed that if you were observant.


So you're labeling people at a higher rank who take longer to do their leves as being in some way deficient because your experience as a low rank crafter tells you that anything more than an hour means you're incompetent? Really? Honestly, you should have just qualified your own posts instead of relying on people reading your sig to find out you don't know what you're talking about. You'd have encountered a lot less grief that way.
#58 Nov 21 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
322 posts
@OP

It does not punish those who dislike crafting, it rewards those who take up crafting.

Saying this is a punishment is ridiculous.
____________________________


#59 Nov 21 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Rjain wrote:
Quote:
The point was a response to someone who was being downright rude in there assertion that there has to be something wrong with you if it takes you 2-4 hours to complete your local leves in conjunction with their exaggerated statement about how long it takes them. I'm not saying it should take everyone 2-4 hours otherwise they're doing it wrong, I'm saying that it's entirely reasonable for it to take that long depending on what you're aiming for.


Here's a concept for you, it's called a joke.

Defined as:

a humorous anecdote or remark intended to provoke laughter; "he told a very funny joke"; "he knows a million gags"; "thanks for the laugh"; "he laughed unpleasantly at his own jest"; "even a schoolboy's jape is supposed to have some ascertainable point"


The key word in that definition is "humorous", which you were not.

You going to carry on like this all day?
#60 Nov 21 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
**
315 posts
Wow i think i just walked into preschool. honestly, who cares how long it takes for someone to do craft leves. its all subjective to how fast you work and what you do. Like WoW i seen ppl get 80 in 3 weeks, i seen ppl get 80 in 5 weeks. So really drop the need to call out on lame "bs" feeling you have to. To the OP. Get over yourself :) SE said from the start not to stick to 1 class/ 2 area. And like ppl say you are not getting punished. SE is not forcing you to craft. If you feel forced to craft for armor repairs, thats your own fault. You can look for someone to do it for you. That what part of mmo is doing working as a team with other players.
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#61 Nov 21 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
320 posts
Man if you take everything this seriously you're going to end up dead with an aneurysm or a heart attack or just a really bad case of hemmorhoids. My remarks might be rather corrosive but half of what I say is a joke. Don't get your **** in a knot over some guy saying "mean things" on the internet. I'm not as half as bad as some of the people you'll meet.

Cry me a river, build yourself a bridge, and get the **** over it.
____________________________


#62 Nov 21 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
**
441 posts
Quote:
It takes like 20 minutes of your time to do 8 crafting leves every couple of days

Quote:
you finish in about 20-35 minutes if you do them all non-stop


if this statement is base on solely on the time of crafting it self where you commence the action from start to finish then i would gather it would take 35 mins, but the levequest in its entirely is where you are misleading. when i speak of 2 hrs or more, i speak upon the whole entire thing, from retrieving the quest, speaking to the npc to initiate the quest, retrieve the items for the quest, cycling threw the menu to begin the initial craft, commencing the synth, from A - to B, 4 times until finishing the requested item, then turning it in. this all takes the majority of time.

The problem is that you did'nt stated clear at the beginning if it was the whole quests, or just the initial time in point of when you start sything the item from beginning to end. it take longer to do 8 levequest, but if your adding only time of the synth it self. then i see where you can get up to 30 mins.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:53pm by gaiaxzero
#63 Nov 21 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Default
*****
11,576 posts
Docent42 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I'm not saying it should take everyone 2-4 hours otherwise they're doing it wrong, I'm saying that it's entirely reasonable for it to take that long depending on what you're aiming for.

I totally agree with you that it can take someone 2-4 if they go to all 3 (and hopefully soon 4) cities to cherry-pick only the best leves possible. Some of my friends felt the game was FORCING them to do so, too, because they clearly only wanted to raise 1 job from leves and HAD to visit other towns to get enough leves. That was actually their choice is all I wanted to point out.


Beyond a certain point, if you want to progress at a reasonable rate with some DoH classes, training books become a functional necessity. Given the common route for skillups for armorers rank 30+, without Sheeting training I'd be thoroughly screwed right now. I failed a rank 20ish synth yesterday at rank 30. It "recommended" Sheeting Training. I was rank 30. I was getting failed actions for 22-24 durability loss with the final failed action for 29. The higher I advance, the more heinous the penalties from not having the training become. SE said they're adjusting crafting so I'm not ******** up a storm right now, and I did pick up Sheeting Training last night after my rank 30 class quest. Without it, I'd be grinding more iron rings for 170 SP/synth or high mat/shard requirement synths that had no training requirement because blowing up synths 5-8 ranks below you in such astounding fashion is just no fun.

And bringing this back around to the primary topic, crafters earn their xp. Difficulty ramps up beyond rank 20 by a fair margin. Shard costs seem to be constantly increasing and as the market fills out, value of finished goods is constantly decreasing. The life of a crafter is not horrible, but we were told months ago that if you want to focus on crafting and never have to fight anything, you can. That means crafters have to be able to progress, too. And if you fight and craft, the benefits of one augment the benefits of the other.
#64 Nov 21 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Default
42 posts
Rjain wrote:
Man if you take everything this seriously you're going to end up dead with an aneurysm or a heart attack or just a really bad case of hemmorhoids. My remarks might be rather corrosive but half of what I say is a joke. Don't get your **** in a knot over some guy saying "mean things" on the internet. I'm not as half as bad as some of the people you'll meet.

Cry me a river, build yourself a bridge, and get the **** over it.



upload your great O' 20 mins crafting leve video to youtube or there no point arguing about your supremacy in here
#65 Nov 21 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
**
353 posts
This is the only MMORPG I played that required me to craft. I personally hate crafting, even in 14 and its not even bad (just mindless). My opinion is that I hate it, it shouldnt be a requirement, having to depend on others to repair is stupid. I knew from the start that durability wear would be a bad (and POINTLESS) idea. It is just a nuisance and nothing more. What was SE thinking? I dont understand how they went from a great model for an MMO like FFXI to such an atrocious one. I hate being forced to do craft leves so that I can one day keep my gear from 0 durability. Otherwise I have to make a run back to the city every 2-3 hrs so repair to 75% and pay a hefty fee.
#66 Nov 21 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
221 posts
I think maybe some of the confusion here is also coming from the levels that people are currently crafting at. When you start crafting at higher levels, you start having to think a lot more about when to do what and what abilities to use (i.e. Preserve, Tender Touch, Harmonize, etc...). At lower levels of crafting , you can breeze through the leves much quicker - often just spamming standard can get you through. However at higher levels, if you are actually grabbing the leves appropriate to your level (i.e. you're not just grabbing lvl 5 leves when your craft level is 20..), it starts to take much longer if you're actually trying to succeed each synth.
____________________________

#67 Nov 21 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
I don't mind crafting in FFXVI. I think it's a deep system that's tolerable. Though I don't believe it punishes people who want to do otherwise, I do think that there is an added importance on crafting that I don't really care for.

I shouldn't have anything to do with crafting in order to enjoy the game. I love fighting and gathering, and for the most part I can steer clear of the crafting system. My main problem with crafting is it's relationship with the repair system, that I despise. Second is the aforementioned importance that SE is giving it, possibly because of lack of DoW content, or possibly because SE wants a good solid foundation of crafters for a 1. solid economy, and 2. the addition of higher level content; companies and the like.

Crafters gaining higher levels only bugs me insofar as, to me, it doesn't make sense. I mean yeah I'm leveling up a goldsmith, but the levels gained and stats therein shouldn't really be equal to a DoW. It's a minor nitpick, but I think SE should have either kept DoH EXP separate from DoW, or gained less EXP for DoH than DoW.

Now if anything, abilities from DoH should be used in combat somehow; I'd rather see an LW ability like "Fullfilment" be used to buff a next ability in a DoW class. Giving a more tacit incentive or rather making leveling a crafter class extra to DoW rather than a main class. But of course this is the opposite of what SE wanted to do, as they wanted to have crafting play a main role.

In the end, though, I think once we start to see more DoW content these sorts of arguments fly out the window.
#68 Nov 21 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Kierk wrote:
Crafters gaining higher levels only bugs me insofar as, to me, it doesn't make sense. I mean yeah I'm leveling up a goldsmith, but the levels gained and stats therein shouldn't really be equal to a DoW. It's a minor nitpick, but I think SE should have either kept DoH EXP separate from DoW, or gained less EXP for DoH than DoW.


I disagree for the reason I posted earlier. If you want to take your DoW out and grind some XP (not SP, XP), you can head out and target mobs of the appropriate rank that respawn on their own and require no real preparation beyond travel to the camp spot. SE set it up so that a crafter can progress as a pure crafter who never kills or uses a DoL class for their mats, just like they've made it possible to focus on a combat class without ever having to make your own gear. Keep in mind that crafters have to repair their gear, too, and unless you're skilling up multiple DoH classes simultaneously, it's the same process for a crafter to get their gear repaired as it is for a combat class whether you're forking out gil to have the NPC do it or trying to track down other players.

It's not all that different from saying that people who don't like playing DoM classes are punished because DoW classes don't get healing abilities that are anywhere near as good as CON/THM. Why should I have to level a class I don't enjoy playing so that I can spam cure myself? How come that guy over there can cast Stygian Spikes on themselves and solo like a champion while I'm stuck waiting on Bloodbath/Second Wind cooldowns or standing around between fights waiting for my HP to regen on its own?

There are benefits to playing a well rounded character in XIV and if you choose not to avail yourself of those benefits for any reason, that's your choice. You're not being punished for not doing so, you're just not taking advantage of the incentives.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 6:30pm by Aurelius
#69 Nov 21 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Default
*
127 posts
Let me explain more clearly what the OP I think is trying to say and what everyone else is seemingly oblivious to. I can understand because I am in the same boat and haven't played in weeks for the same reason.

Quote:
Difference is that they like crafting and that I don't


Let me point out the ******* title of this post "FFXIV punishes those who dislike crafting". DISLIKES CRAFTING.

Quote:
It takes like 20 minutes of your time to do 8 crafting leves every couple of days. Just doing that alone can yield thousands and thousands of experience points. It's not like you have to worry about farming the items or go through some daunting task.

There's nothing to complain about. Crafters get more benefit because the game runs on crafters. Besides, there are DoW benefits to leveling crafters anyway


Did you even read the post before mindlessly spouting your irrelevant solution. "Oh, you don't like pizza? Why don't you eat a pizza then."

Regardless of how much more xp his friends are getting and if it's fair or not the OP DOES NOT WANT TO CRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the OP wants to grind let him grind(btw he is being penalized for not wanting to craft since his friends have a higher physical level). Why the **** would he spend even 20 minutes a day doing something he hates? This is supposed to be a recreational game not some dead end job you need to trudge thru to pay your bills. Majidah, if you don't want to craft don't. It's that simple. Don't listen to people whose suggestions to solve your problem involve you participating in what you have a problem with in the first place. It's frigging asinine. SE screwed the pooch on the implementation of the crafting system and made it way way too integral to the basic gameplay of FFXIV.
#70 Nov 21 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
*
213 posts
The exp gained for crafting is "working as intended." It is not a penalty unless your GLA gets less exp than my GLA because I craft.

but srsly although I'm not in OP's shoes because I craft a lot, I can see his point. People don't like to put themselves in others' shoes when it does not pertain to them. If all we did was play DoW/DoM, we would probably all get a little butthurt at ending up with a lot less exp.

I'm in the same boat with my GLA getting half as much SP as everyone else, for using a shield. I don't bother crying about it because people don't have sympathy for things that don't affect them.

in short... roll with the punches.
____________________________


#71 Nov 21 2010 at 9:01 PM Rating: Default
**
602 posts
westsidepatone wrote:
Let me explain more clearly what the OP I think is trying to say and what everyone else is seemingly oblivious to. I can understand because I am in the same boat and haven't played in weeks for the same reason.

Quote:
Difference is that they like crafting and that I don't


Let me point out the @#%^ing title of this post "FFXIV punishes those who dislike crafting". DISLIKES CRAFTING.

Quote:
It takes like 20 minutes of your time to do 8 crafting leves every couple of days. Just doing that alone can yield thousands and thousands of experience points. It's not like you have to worry about farming the items or go through some daunting task.

There's nothing to complain about. Crafters get more benefit because the game runs on crafters. Besides, there are DoW benefits to leveling crafters anyway


Did you even read the post before mindlessly spouting your irrelevant solution. "Oh, you don't like pizza? Why don't you eat a pizza then."

Regardless of how much more xp his friends are getting and if it's fair or not the OP DOES NOT WANT TO CRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the OP wants to grind let him grind(btw he is being penalized for not wanting to craft since his friends have a higher physical level). Why the **** would he spend even 20 minutes a day doing something he hates? This is supposed to be a recreational game not some dead end job you need to trudge thru to pay your bills. Majidah, if you don't want to craft don't. It's that simple. Don't listen to people whose suggestions to solve your problem involve you participating in what you have a problem with in the first place. It's frigging asinine. SE screwed the pooch on the implementation of the crafting system and made it way way too integral to the basic gameplay of FFXIV.



*stands up and claps*
____________________________
FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#72 Nov 21 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
westsidepatone wrote:

Regardless of how much more xp his friends are getting and if it's fair or not the OP DOES NOT WANT TO CRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the OP wants to grind let him grind(btw he is being penalized for not wanting to craft since his friends have a higher physical level). Why the **** would he spend even 20 minutes a day doing something he hates? This is supposed to be a recreational game not some dead end job you need to trudge thru to pay your bills. Majidah, if you don't want to craft don't. It's that simple. Don't listen to people whose suggestions to solve your problem involve you participating in what you have a problem with in the first place. It's frigging asinine. SE screwed the pooch on the implementation of the crafting system and made it way way too integral to the basic gameplay of FFXIV.


It's not like crafters are the only ones who can reach PL 50. The OP said themselves...they're miffed because they've got friends with slightly lower ranked combat classes than them who also craft and as a result have a higher PL. The OP's friends/LS mates do more and therefore have gained more. Go figure.
#73 Nov 21 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,949 posts
BadJoRed wrote:
The exp gained for crafting is "working as intended." It is not a penalty unless your GLA gets less exp than my GLA because I craft.

Actually, it's even the other way around. Since I'm Phys46, I get 0 physical xp a lot of time when grinding with friends, and they still get physical xp. I'm being "penalyzed" because I grinded physical xp on a crafting job and now I don't get as much as my friend that's duoing with me!!

Not that I complain about it, because, you know, in 4 levels, I'll be at cap and I'll get 0 from crafting, too!
____________________________
FFXIV: Cloe Delisle Scholar, officer of the SWAGGER Free company, Sargatanas server.
#74 Nov 21 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Docent42 wrote:
BadJoRed wrote:
The exp gained for crafting is "working as intended." It is not a penalty unless your GLA gets less exp than my GLA because I craft.

Actually, it's even the other way around. Since I'm Phys46, I get 0 physical xp a lot of time when grinding with friends, and they still get physical xp. I'm being "penalyzed" because I grinded physical xp on a crafting job and now I don't get as much as my friend that's duoing with me!!

Not that I complain about it, because, you know, in 4 levels, I'll be at cap and I'll get 0 from crafting, too!


Ya, but it still tells you you're getting XP. Which is good in a way becomes sometimes the best gauge of a recipe's rank is the xp you get from completing the synthesis. I'm just curious as to whether or not I can hit "bonus" xp with a PL 50 character. I think that would be funny.
#75 Nov 21 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Default
**
602 posts
Aurelius wrote:
westsidepatone wrote:

Regardless of how much more xp his friends are getting and if it's fair or not the OP DOES NOT WANT TO CRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the OP wants to grind let him grind(btw he is being penalized for not wanting to craft since his friends have a higher physical level). Why the **** would he spend even 20 minutes a day doing something he hates? This is supposed to be a recreational game not some dead end job you need to trudge thru to pay your bills. Majidah, if you don't want to craft don't. It's that simple. Don't listen to people whose suggestions to solve your problem involve you participating in what you have a problem with in the first place. It's frigging asinine. SE screwed the pooch on the implementation of the crafting system and made it way way too integral to the basic gameplay of FFXIV.


It's not like crafters are the only ones who can reach PL 50. The OP said themselves...they're miffed because they've got friends with slightly lower ranked combat classes than them who also craft and as a result have a higher PL. The OP's friends/LS mates do more and therefore have gained more. Go figure.


Not the case.

You have a DoW lvl 1 job.
You have a DoH lvl 1 job.
Both require a set ammount of skill points to go up in rank, the same ammount.
Difference is that for DoH gets more physical EXP in a rank than a DoW does. So if these were two people leveling at the same time, their physical ranks would drift apart as soon as the needed SP to rank up becomes higher (thus leaving more room for the difference in EXP gain to become aparent).
____________________________
FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#76Furia, Posted: Nov 21 2010 at 9:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Here's the critical difference between Grinding and Crafting. Crafting involves staring at a wall hitting a button for hours on end, and this never changes. It is completely mindless. Grinding (at least in a proper game) involves a sense of adventure and strategy--visiting new locations, fighting a variety of mobs with a variety of attacks--solving the puzzle of killing them efficiently--enjoying a variety of increasingly powerful abilities and equipment--cooperating with a team in a strategic manner. Admittedly XIV is missing a lot of that atm, but in general, that is why grinding is more enjoyable than crafting for most people. SE has tried to introduce some of those aspects into crafting (and perhaps they will succeed some day, many updates into the future), but thus far, I feel they have failed pretty miserably and exposed most of their efforts as nothing but shameless time sinks (deliveries, grinding sub crafts for simple abilities, etc...). Crafting is, as you say, in a lot of games, but it almost always plays a supporting role and is OPTIONAL. The key word there is optional, which is where XIV gets it wrong, which I will get to now...
#77 Nov 21 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
**
447 posts
Aurelius wrote:
westsidepatone wrote:

Regardless of how much more xp his friends are getting and if it's fair or not the OP DOES NOT WANT TO CRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the OP wants to grind let him grind(btw he is being penalized for not wanting to craft since his friends have a higher physical level). Why the **** would he spend even 20 minutes a day doing something he hates? This is supposed to be a recreational game not some dead end job you need to trudge thru to pay your bills. Majidah, if you don't want to craft don't. It's that simple. Don't listen to people whose suggestions to solve your problem involve you participating in what you have a problem with in the first place. It's frigging asinine. SE screwed the pooch on the implementation of the crafting system and made it way way too integral to the basic gameplay of FFXIV.


It's not like crafters are the only ones who can reach PL 50. The OP said themselves...they're miffed because they've got friends with slightly lower ranked combat classes than them who also craft and as a result have a higher PL. The OP's friends/LS mates do more and therefore have gained more. Go figure.


+1

Am I really agreeing with you on something?

I think so.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#78 Nov 21 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
**
315 posts
Imaboomer wrote:
This is the only MMORPG I played that required me to craft. I personally hate crafting, even in 14 and its not even bad (just mindless). My opinion is that I hate it, it shouldnt be a requirement, having to depend on others to repair is stupid. I knew from the start that durability wear would be a bad (and POINTLESS) idea. It is just a nuisance and nothing more. What was SE thinking? I dont understand how they went from a great model for an MMO like FFXI to such an atrocious one. I hate being forced to do craft leves so that I can one day keep my gear from 0 durability. Otherwise I have to make a run back to the city every 2-3 hrs so repair to 75% and pay a hefty fee.

thats your fault. you can ask for help if you want it. you don't need to craft.
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#79 Nov 21 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
westsidepatone wrote:

Regardless of how much more xp his friends are getting and if it's fair or not the OP DOES NOT WANT TO CRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the OP wants to grind let him grind(btw he is being penalized for not wanting to craft since his friends have a higher physical level). Why the **** would he spend even 20 minutes a day doing something he hates? This is supposed to be a recreational game not some dead end job you need to trudge thru to pay your bills. Majidah, if you don't want to craft don't. It's that simple. Don't listen to people whose suggestions to solve your problem involve you participating in what you have a problem with in the first place. It's frigging asinine. SE screwed the pooch on the implementation of the crafting system and made it way way too integral to the basic gameplay of FFXIV.


It's not like crafters are the only ones who can reach PL 50. The OP said themselves...they're miffed because they've got friends with slightly lower ranked combat classes than them who also craft and as a result have a higher PL. The OP's friends/LS mates do more and therefore have gained more. Go figure.


Not the case.

You have a DoW lvl 1 job.
You have a DoH lvl 1 job.
Both require a set ammount of skill points to go up in rank, the same ammount.
Difference is that for DoH gets more physical EXP in a rank than a DoW does. So if these were two people leveling at the same time, their physical ranks would drift apart as soon as the needed SP to rank up becomes higher (thus leaving more room for the difference in EXP gain to become aparent).


Alright, if we're going to have this discussion, let's just clear away all the elements that could confuse a comparison, shall we? The only way to truly compare a DoH to a DoW in terms of what they earn for XP is to look at them as pure classes. So the DoW class in your example is a DoW and nothing else. The DoH class in your example is a DoH class and nothing else.

You take your brand new character out as a rank 1 DoW. You can city hop to do 8 rank 1 battlecraft leves, killing all manner of beasties along the way. You'll get your gil from leve rewards. You'll get your drops from beasties. You'll get your SP/XP from kills. You'll sell the drops you get to NPCs or other players and use that gil to upgrade and repair your gear. If at any point you run out of mobs to kill, your progression stops.

The crafter takes their brand new character out as a rank one DoH. The can city hop to get 8 local leves for their class. They will not be able to progress their character in any way while traveling. They will receive gil, a small amount of shards, and a small amount of materials that they may or may not be able to use right away with each leve they complete. They will get XP/SP from every synth they do. They will then either reserve the resulting materials for future synths or sell them to other players/NPCs. They will use the resulting gil to buy materials and shards as well as upgrade the gear they cannot make on their own and repair the gear they cannot repair on their own. If at any point they run out of shards or materials, their progression stops.

When was the last time you ran out of mobs to kill?
#80 Nov 21 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Am I really agreeing with you on something?

I think so.


Don't worry. It could just be a passing phase. Worst case scenario, I think they can medicate for that these days.
#81 Nov 21 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
3,835 posts
Kierk wrote:
I don't mind crafting in FFXVI. I think it's a deep system that's tolerable. Though I don't believe it punishes people who want to do otherwise, I do think that there is an added importance on crafting that I don't really care for.

I shouldn't have anything to do with crafting in order to enjoy the game. I love fighting and gathering, and for the most part I can steer clear of the crafting system. My main problem with crafting is it's relationship with the repair system, that I despise. Second is the aforementioned importance that SE is giving it, possibly because of lack of DoW content, or possibly because SE wants a good solid foundation of crafters for a 1. solid economy, and 2. the addition of higher level content; companies and the like.


As a longtime XI crafter (though a relative newbie in XIV), having seen the differences I really tend to agree with this. I've been choking on gear and good items for a week that I can't sell, since everyone and his uncle Harvey can craft those items himself (and since the repair NPC charges so much, that gil drain gets offset by crafters gathering their own mats, so I can't sell those either).

Frankly I really don't like the fact that everyone is pushed to craft either: it clogs up the system at the bottom for new crafters who can't sell anything (making it harder to advance), and drags people who are more party-oriented into a repetitive system that some people find relaxing, but probably isn't for everyone no matter how many bells and whistles you put on it.

I am as I said a relative newbie to this game, I've only been playing a couple of weeks, but I already commiserate with Kierk's viewpoint from the other side of the fence. I'd rather be making and selling your gear to you so you don't have to make it, and prices would be kept low by natural competition instead of inflated by the price of pure convenience. Maybe we'll have to wait for the AH for that, but for right now it really does seem awkward from my viewpoint. Maybe it gets better at higher levels?

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 10:07pm by Sioux
____________________________
~Kublakhan~
Taru career Beastmaster, Bismarck server

Facekey, local gilseller wrote:
THANK KUBLAHA HP++



#82 Nov 21 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Furia wrote:
Sure, I employ a bit of hyperbole to get a point across, but I think even you would agree it's not unreasonable to assume the forced craft/repair systems (or perception of such, if you prefer) was a major factor for many people that have quit. Was it the sole or primary reason? For some yes, for others, no. Do I think this game could maintain the player base of WoW with the current craft/repair requirements? Absolutely not, which was the point I was getting at with prospective players.


I don't think anyone here would say that the repair system in its current iteration is good (or even mediocre). Even people like myself find it tedious at best. But this isn't about the repair system. This thread is about the OP's frustration that people who level combat classes and crafting classes will gain XP faster than someone who just levels a combat class. I think that what people need to take note of is that those of us fortunate enough to get into the game at the beginning and milk the startup economy to one extent or another as crafters are in an entirely different boat from people who start the game a few months from now.

When the crafters already at the cap with one or more DoH classes are flooding the market with the crafted fluff they made with stuff they picked up while grinding their lowbie combat classes, how is someone 3-4 months from not going to be able to stay afloat when the "best" they have to sell is undercut to **** by people just offloading? Shard/crystal prices aren't going to be coming down unless SE changes the system somehow to make them more accessible. (I believe there's something in patch notes about reducing shard requirements but I don't know how far those reductions will go or how many recipes it will impact.)

The bottom line is this: SE made it pretty clear from the outset that the game was about growth. Their "day in the life" feature so many months ago involved someone who was doing a bit of everything. There's nothing that says SE is under any obligation to make yet another MMO that focuses around the combat and only the combat and everything else as flavor. And just like certain other MMOs don't appeal to some people because they're too "cartoony" or "too easy", FFXIV won't appeal to some people because it requires you to have your hand in too many different activities to be self sufficient. It's not a failing in design, it's a choice in design and you like it or you don't.

The people who do a bit of everything are always likely to come out ahead of those who preserve one narrow focus. It's not about what "should" or "could" be, it's about what is.

SE is addressing the durability/repair system. I'm curious to see how that works out. Regardless of what happens, resenting Bob because he's a higher PL than you as a result of his myriad activities relative to your one is rather silly.
#83 Nov 21 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:
I'm irked by this. Me and a few friends are all in range 21-25. Difference is that they like crafting and that I don't. So I focused on getting DoW up to get skills from other jobs while they did their crafting.

Bottom line, I'm sitting close to rank 25 with a level 31 physical level, while my rank 21 friends have their physical level closer to 39.

I don't see how this is fair. They get an advantage on DoW for leveling crafting (higher stats) but its not like I'm getting any bonuses regarding crafting for leveling melee jobs instead.

Currently I'm leveling my crafts for close to 1k physical a pop JUST to catch up. And I hate it.


Is it also fair that you can kill mobs and all they can do is throwing rocks and let mobs kill them? If you say they also have DoW, then it just mean they spend more time playing then you. Having 160 STR with a Fire Pot as weapon doesn't get you far as having 80 STR with a proper weapon. Believe it or not, stat doesn't make that much of a difference pass r30, all except VIT for DoW and VIT/MND for DoM.

____________________________




#84 Nov 22 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Excellent
*
90 posts
Furia wrote:

Here's the critical difference between Grinding and Crafting. Crafting involves staring at a wall hitting a button for hours on end, and this never changes. It is completely mindless.


Apparently you are speaking out of pure ignorance of crafting at anything above levels 1-10...
First off, you have to choose which of your crafting abilities to set based on what you are synthing. Personally, since I cover the gamut of crafts and have a wide variety of choices, I go with Tender Touch, Fulfillment, and Preserve if I'm going for a harder synth (to gain more SP) and if I'm going for the pluses on a lower synth, I set abilities like Epiphany which improve bold synths to raise quality. Others will tell you they jam through with Hasty Hand just trying to get the work done.
Now when you are in the synth, your set actions will not always be there (they pop randomly), and sometimes more than one will pop at a time. You have to choose which action, when available, is appropriate given your current amount of progress, your remaining durability, the current risk state of the synth, and the amount of durability you lose on a failure for each of the primary 4 options (which also requires attention and needs to be assessed on-the-fly)... and you have to do so within the couple of seconds before you fail that round. Do you play it safe or go for the gold? Are you willing to risk getting 1/2 SP and no XP and the loss of mats/shards for no material return in order to improve the SP/XP gain on a success?

It is HARDLY mindless.

Quote:
Grinding (at least in a proper game) involves a sense of adventure and strategy--visiting new locations, fighting a variety of mobs with a variety of attacks--solving the puzzle of killing them efficiently--enjoying a variety of increasingly powerful abilities and equipment--cooperating with a team in a strategic manner. Admittedly XIV is missing a lot of that atm, but in general, that is why grinding is more enjoyable than crafting for most people.


Well, let's see, you're claiming "in a proper game" inferring that XIV is not one (at least not atm)...
Then a list of traits which you have already discounted as not being present, and therefore not applicable to the argument at hand....
Then an "in general" "more" "most"... again, really like to know where your figures are coming from... whom did you poll? Was it a "Most grinders prefer to grind" poll?
Why can't you just say, "This is my opinion/this is how I feel", hmmm? Trust me, I'm not going to hold it against you. Making claims without evidence so you can hide your opinion behind a wall of "general consensus" doesn't strengthen your argument.
Like I said, I like going out and fighting stuff... no, I hate grinding (bad term) but I like xping (good term) (I swear I'm going to fight the meaningless use of the word "grind" to infer ANY sp/xp gaining over long periods). You aren't telling me anything I don't know about the good points of going out and killing mobs. But I'm also well aware of the bad points that you are glossing over, as well as the good points of crafting that you are also choosing to gloss over, either out of ignorance, or obstinance.

Quote:
SE has tried to introduce some of those aspects into crafting (and perhaps they will succeed some day, many updates into the future), but thus far, I feel they have failed pretty miserably and exposed most of their efforts as nothing but shameless time sinks (deliveries, grinding sub crafts for simple abilities, etc...).


Okay... at least in the middle you copped to an opinion...
Problem is, the first part of this statement is opinion as well, and clearly (from the first point above) you were not looking objectively at the system or at least not from a well-informed perspective.
Regarding "shameless" timesinks, what do you think an MMO is? A game where players subscriptions are meant to be protracted out to develop a revenue stream. They string you along with updates or expansions featuring new classes or races, and even higher level caps... to spend months more of your time playing, and keep the stream flowing. That's just the nature of the beast here. It is not "pay your $60 and beat it in 3 hours game" (had 2 friends at karaoke Friday night complain about beating two different, and very popular, titles that way).
Deliveries? ... really? Your lead point in your lengthy (sarcasm) list of offenses... would you like the long or the longer list of MMO featuring quests with deliveries of X to Y? The new thing is, that allowing crafters to make deliveries, means that they get in on that aspect of the questy-goodness which has previously been only reserved for combat classes (which you glossed over).
I refuse to use the g-word for this... Ranking or Leveling a second class is not JUST done for "simple abilities". To begin with, if someone LIKES crafting why would you assume that their like is limited only to a specific craft: "Man, I love armorer but I hate blacksmithing! GOLDSMITH! That can go straight to ****!" Certainly, within the set-up of a particular MMO (including this one) there are nuances between the crafts that might turn one person toward or away from this or that craft. But in your argument here, those nuances are "facts not in evidence".
Your third point... doesn't exist, or at least its existence is a "fact not in evidence".
You don't like the crafting system as a whole, and that's fine. You've stated your distaste for it, and that's fine. You don't want to do it, and that's fine. However, you then make exaggerated claims regarding that system which are both logically and factually flawed, well... my opinion is that isn't fine.

Quote:
Crafting is, as you say, in a lot of games, but it almost always plays a supporting role


And clearly, if you had your way, those of us who like crafting would continue to be in "supporting roles" that still HAVE to have combat jobs, rather than active and important players in the world that may forgo combat if we so desire.

Quote:
and is OPTIONAL. The key word there is optional, which is where XIV gets it wrong,


In your HUMBLE opinion, I'm sure.

Quote:
which I will get to now...

As for being forced, well, you tell me how you would describe it.


I have, multiple times in this thread, in reasoned arguments that are grounded in facts, and that account for the varied tastes of players who like different things.

Quote:
You either craft, or you waste an exorbitant amount of time, effort, and gil repairing your weapon every hour.


This is a statement of pure opinion, hinging on the word "exorbitant", but your opinion also doesn't account for certain facts....
The first rank 50s made it in a month. Now that's clearly an unreasonable expectation for most of us with, you know, jobs, friends, families, interests other than ceaseless grinding. But you cannot argue this:
If you take that month (we won't even subtract the assumed occasional bathroom break, meals, and the biological necessity of OCCASIONAL periods of unconsciousness... aka: sleep), that is to say thirty-one days times twenty-four hours a day which is 744 hours, and subdivide it into smaller portions of time that fit your schedule (ex. 3 hours a day on weekdays, 5 hours a day on weekends, weekly total of 25 hours; actually modest play by some standards) then you can figure out how quickly you COULD hit rank 50. (Per the example: 25 hours a week, into 744 hours is 29.76... let's just say 30, weeks)
However, simply doing it by the numbers like this would be ignoring certain advantages (other than the aforementioned disregard for time needed for biological necessities) you have that the first rank 50s did not have.
In 31 days there are 20 leve-resets... the example, being spread over 30 weeks, gets a whopping 140. That is SEVEN TIMES as many opportunities for gil, items, and the occasion gear reward than the first 50s had... your results may vary.
Guardian's Aspect... same thing... the more concentrated amount of time you play, the less you have of it in your equation.
Anima... same thing... the more you spread out your playtime, the more you will recieve to make use of to cut down on travel times.
Available equipment and upgrades... have you gotten all of your gear from leve drops? If so, most of your eq would probably be incorrect for your class and/or rank and thus would be prone to breakage, and you wouldn't have been getting the best results from them. You have crafters available now that can make gear... but you have to occasionally interact with them to get what you need.... something I'm guessing you don't do for people in "supporting roles" (cuz you're the BIG STAR aren't you?)
As you stated gil as a concern, and the first 50s opportunities for gil from leves was highly restricted, then you have to look at the only four other ways to earn gil...
A) Fighting mobs that drop gil: also highly limited, but not impossible to obtain in this manner once you reach certain areas.
B) Selling loot to players: As they raced forward and started getting "Flaming Blade of Asswhoopin'" drops, they would have difficulty finding buyers who either needed or could offer a substantial sum for those items... they would have to just take what they could get... but spending time seeking buyers, or standing idle around the repair NPC was clearly not acceptable to them. Now they could have (and this is just a factual statement about the existence of a possibility, not a claim of what they did) sold the LOADS of shards/crystals that they were earning (and, at least at first, they were limited to stacks of 999) to crafters at prices the crafters could afford and made their money by moving large volumes quickly.
C) Vendor-trashing loot: highly time-efficient (no searching for a buyer there, you already know where they are, and if you needed to visit the vendor to buy something... like the Archer's stacks and stacks and stacks of Warped Arrows, then you are consolidating your time expenditure) and believe it or not, this can get you substantial sums of money (it's how I made my millions).
D) Crafting loot into more valuable commodities and THEN taking option B or C: obviously not their chosen path.... NOBODY with a sound rational mind is going to attempt to level a crafting job when they are aiming for ranking a combat class to 50 as quickly as possible... you do not get a return of gil that can make up for the time and materials spent, let alone the fact that after increasing the value you STILL have to find a buyer.

As far as "effort"... clearly all of the first 50s effort went into reaching 50 as quickly as possible. My effort has gone into playing all jobs. I have no idea what you are putting your efforts into, other than a lost argument.

Quote:
It is unrealistic to expect you will always party with someone of a certain craft and rank, or that your friends or ls will be able to provide such services at your beck and call.


Yes, you are correct... that is why there is a repair NPC that covers all levels of every type of gear (except jewlry) conveniently located in every major city. That NPC is at your beck and call, for FUNCTIONAL but not FULL repairs. Not to beat a dead horse about it... but who do you think the first 50s went to for repairs? Beyond a certain point no crafter would have had the skill to repair the gear they were wearing, let alone what it would have cost them in time to repeatedly remove and place their damaged gear in their bazaars, wait for each repair-synth to complete, and then re-don their equipment.

Quote:
You can argue semantics all you want,


Good, because I neither want to... nor do I feel the need to in order to prove my point.

Quote:
but when the alternatives are so unreasonable it makes the game unplayable, yea I would define that as forced.


So... let me get this straight...
You don't like crafting (opinion)
You feel that the alternatives are unreasonable (opinion)
You feel that it makes the game unplayable (opinion... and... you know it's coming... first 50s)
You would define it as forced (opinion... but an opinion regarding a word that ACTUALLY has a standard definition)

YOU are the one playing semantics.

Quote:
Some of you guys need to learn to distinguish between literal and figurative (so to speak), cause this one gets regurgitated every time someone dares mention force and craft in the same sentence. The point is always about being effectively forced, not literally.


I think you could use a lesson in the difference between literal and figurative yourself... because your arguments are invalid in EITHER case...

Literal - someone is physically making you move your mouse and press the buttons to craft. (no one has argured this)
Figurative - you are being required to craft or face an unreasonable consequence. (which part exactly is unreasonable? Other than the made-up stuff? That you have to pay for repairs... no, that's not unreasonable. That there is a functional option available 24/7... nope, not that. That it will somehow keep you from reaching endgame? No, because that's not true *cough*first50s*cough*)

Quote:
Sure, I employ a bit of hyperbole to get a point across,


i.e. You make sh*t up while trying to express your personal opinions as facts.

Quote:
but I think even you would agree it's not unreasonable to assume the forced craft/repair systems (or perception of such, if you prefer) was a major factor for many people that have quit.


Then you thought wrong... again. And thanks for proving my point above. As I recall, the primarily quoted major factors were laggy/clunky/not-user-friendly UI, and lack of content.

---"Was it the sole or primary reason? For some yes, for others, no."---

So it wasn't the "sole" or "primary" reason, but it was a "major factor"?!? What is this information based on........ oh, right, your previously stated distaste for crafting and your ability to make sh*t up.

---"Do I think this game could maintain the player base of WoW with the current craft/repair requirements? Absolutely not, which was the point I was getting at with prospective players."---

Yes, more of your opinions, based on ... (we know the answer at this point... don't we)

The first 50s, quite simply, did not craft. They did not need to, and neither do you. Their accomplishment, the facts that ARE in evidence, directly contradict your arguments which are based on NOTHING other than YOUR OPINIONS and made-up suppositions about what everyone else thinks, and stuff that you seem to excavate from your large intestine as you go...
But you know what? Even if they did think it was "forced" it would STILL be opinion and it would still be based on a personal definition of the word "forced" and it would still be ignorant of the FACTS.

You do NOT have to craft. If you do not like to craft, fine. However, your problem is with the fact that your gear gets damaged over time, eventually incurring penalties, and requires repair... repairs from someone who knows how to make that gear. Thus not forcing you to craft, but forcing you to interact with crafters but ONLY if you will not settle for the FUNCTIONAL 75% repair. And if you do NOT want to interact with people (and gods, at this point, I can see the benefits in that... for the crafters) AND you do not want to settle for 75% then yes, you do need to craft. But that is by no reasonable rational means being FORCED into it, even by your own definiton, because you have two other viable options, you just don't like them.

And... one last note before I am just done with this thread: as far as the repair system ENCOURAGING combat classes to interact with crafters as though, you know, they were in some sort of community together... I believe...
"That is working as intended"...
... but you are not.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan


edited to add quotation marks

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 3:31am by AilysFoxglove
#85 Nov 22 2010 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Quote:

That's funny because if you did read my posts Aurelius you would have noticed I said I do it in 40 minutes, not 20 minutes. Had you have read the post that you even quoted a few posts up, you would have noticed that the 20 mins was originally a random statement on the "fast side of things" just counting in the crafting itself. That wasn't me saying I do it in 20 minutes all of the time. I've been saying throughout this thread that "I do not take more than an hour" and that taking more than an hour is wrong. It is you dodos that keep pressing on the stupid 20 minute thing.


Well, perhaps because you used right that argument to prove your point in the first place?

"Just counting the crafting itself" is about as stupid as saying:
"As a DoW, I get 500 EXP per second. Each time I deliver the final blow to a mob."
#86 Nov 22 2010 at 3:33 AM Rating: Decent
*
71 posts
you are actually taking Rjain serious? for god sakes its a guy who plays a mithra. or a manthra.

from urban dictionary 3. manthra 7 up, 10 down

buy manthra mugs, tshirts and magnets
manthra is a guy who plays a chick character in FFXI... they use excuses such as good stats... when in reality there just perverts who want to be women someday
im a manthra cause i like to stare at the back of a cat chick instead of a male character in subligar.... :/



crafting isnt punishing...the game itself is punishment. but crafting is by far one of the worst aspects of this game. its terrible. and you pretty much have to do it which is even worst, other MMOs allow you to repair gear to 100% at a vendor. so not crafting is this game is a possibility but then you are punished for not crafting.
#87 Nov 22 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,608 posts
westsidepatone wrote:
Let me explain more clearly what the OP I think is trying to say and what everyone else is seemingly oblivious to. I can understand because I am in the same boat and haven't played in weeks for the same reason.

Quote:
Difference is that they like crafting and that I don't


Let me point out the @#%^ing title of this post "FFXIV punishes those who dislike crafting". DISLIKES CRAFTING.

Quote:
It takes like 20 minutes of your time to do 8 crafting leves every couple of days. Just doing that alone can yield thousands and thousands of experience points. It's not like you have to worry about farming the items or go through some daunting task.

There's nothing to complain about. Crafters get more benefit because the game runs on crafters. Besides, there are DoW benefits to leveling crafters anyway


Did you even read the post before mindlessly spouting your irrelevant solution. "Oh, you don't like pizza? Why don't you eat a pizza then."

Regardless of how much more xp his friends are getting and if it's fair or not the OP DOES NOT WANT TO CRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the OP wants to grind let him grind(btw he is being penalized for not wanting to craft since his friends have a higher physical level). Why the **** would he spend even 20 minutes a day doing something he hates? This is supposed to be a recreational game not some dead end job you need to trudge thru to pay your bills. Majidah, if you don't want to craft don't. It's that simple. Don't listen to people whose suggestions to solve your problem involve you participating in what you have a problem with in the first place. It's frigging asinine. SE screwed the pooch on the implementation of the crafting system and made it way way too integral to the basic gameplay of FFXIV.


lol, I love pizza. Have a pizza.
____________________________

#88 Nov 22 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
**
315 posts
ok seriously guys, stop talking smack just because you fail to understand things.
1> SE said crafting was going to be classes, not everyone like playing combat classes. Ther are trying to bring in more players.
2> you don;t have to be self sufficaint, this is an mmo. Rely on the aid of others, kinda a point of the genre.
3> let ppl play how they like. SE don't punish ppl for not crafting.

with that said i don't think this really is about crafting, I think OP is upset his friends choose to craft instead of leveling with him. And is taking it out on others.
Anyway again this is an mmorpg. Other ppl do craft find those who do and ask for repairs. Or just vendor repair. It does help to yours the right gear/ armor for the right roll.
like cloth gear as a tank etc.
Anywat that my 2 cents
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#89ironmonk25, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 4:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ill be the first to say it, you are an idiot. did you type the first paragraph then magically forget what you just said you moron. and i quote ok seriously guys stop talking smack just because you fail to understand things. then you go on and say i think OP is upset his friends choose to craft instead of leveling with him and is taking it out on others.....yep you are an idiot. so only you with your vast knowledge of understanding things can talk smack. moron....
#90 Nov 22 2010 at 4:22 AM Rating: Good
**
315 posts
Ironmonk
Do you understand the term "talking smack?" If not its, bullying and starting drama. Which is what you just did. Also side not, you can be reported for making personal attacks please don't do it.
My side note was just my opinion based on what was said. Since he seems to mention his friends crafting, not just crafting in general. Which was incorrect from that start.
Try to read a bit more before doing a cheap and unnessisary attack.
____________________________
can you ware shoes in clown shoes
#91 Nov 22 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
Chill out people, keep it civil.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#92 Nov 22 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
*
164 posts
Quote:
FFXIV punishes those who dislike crafting


That's like saying that a Hospital punished you because it charged a fee when you got sick.
____________________________
Irishclass777 said: crafting is crafting no matter the game just because crafting is a job in ffxiv don't it much change much.


#93 Nov 22 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
*
51 posts
Quote:
That's like saying that a Hospital punished you because it charged a fee when you got sick.


.
..
...
....
.....They kinda did. :-/

Although I agree. One can turn around and say "SE punishes people who dislike fighting!"
____________________________
FFXIV: Taiga Halak, Fabul

FFXI: Talina, Valefor (retired)
#94 Nov 22 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
194 posts
So, in summary, I can do all eight (8) crafting leves in twenty (20) minutes?

I love facts!!!

#95 Nov 22 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
364 posts
AilysFoxglove wrote:

Apparently you are speaking out of pure ignorance of crafting at anything above levels 1-10...
First off, you have to choose which of your crafting abilities to set based on what you are synthing. Personally, since I cover the gamut of crafts and have a wide variety of choices, I go with Tender Touch, Fulfillment, and Preserve if I'm going for a harder synth (to gain more SP) and if I'm going for the pluses on a lower synth, I set abilities like Epiphany which improve bold synths to raise quality. Others will tell you they jam through with Hasty Hand just trying to get the work done.
Now when you are in the synth, your set actions will not always be there (they pop randomly), and sometimes more than one will pop at a time. You have to choose which action, when available, is appropriate given your current amount of progress, your remaining durability, the current risk state of the synth, and the amount of durability you lose on a failure for each of the primary 4 options (which also requires attention and needs to be assessed on-the-fly)... and you have to do so within the couple of seconds before you fail that round. Do you play it safe or go for the gold? Are you willing to risk getting 1/2 SP and no XP and the loss of mats/shards for no material return in order to improve the SP/XP gain on a success?

It is HARDLY mindless.

Well, let's see, you're claiming "in a proper game" inferring that XIV is not one (at least not atm)...
Then a list of traits which you have already discounted as not being present, and therefore not applicable to the argument at hand....
Then an "in general" "more" "most"... again, really like to know where your figures are coming from... whom did you poll? Was it a "Most grinders prefer to grind" poll?
Why can't you just say, "This is my opinion/this is how I feel", hmmm? Trust me, I'm not going to hold it against you. Making claims without evidence so you can hide your opinion behind a wall of "general consensus" doesn't strengthen your argument.
Like I said, I like going out and fighting stuff... no, I hate grinding (bad term) but I like xping (good term) (I swear I'm going to fight the meaningless use of the word "grind" to infer ANY sp/xp gaining over long periods). You aren't telling me anything I don't know about the good points of going out and killing mobs. But I'm also well aware of the bad points that you are glossing over, as well as the good points of crafting that you are also choosing to gloss over, either out of ignorance, or obstinance.

Okay... at least in the middle you copped to an opinion...
Problem is, the first part of this statement is opinion as well, and clearly (from the first point above) you were not looking objectively at the system or at least not from a well-informed perspective.
Regarding "shameless" timesinks, what do you think an MMO is? A game where players subscriptions are meant to be protracted out to develop a revenue stream. They string you along with updates or expansions featuring new classes or races, and even higher level caps... to spend months more of your time playing, and keep the stream flowing. That's just the nature of the beast here. It is not "pay your $60 and beat it in 3 hours game" (had 2 friends at karaoke Friday night complain about beating two different, and very popular, titles that way).
Deliveries? ... really? Your lead point in your lengthy (sarcasm) list of offenses... would you like the long or the longer list of MMO featuring quests with deliveries of X to Y? The new thing is, that allowing crafters to make deliveries, means that they get in on that aspect of the questy-goodness which has previously been only reserved for combat classes (which you glossed over).
I refuse to use the g-word for this... Ranking or Leveling a second class is not JUST done for "simple abilities". To begin with, if someone LIKES crafting why would you assume that their like is limited only to a specific craft: "Man, I love armorer but I hate blacksmithing! GOLDSMITH! That can go straight to ****!" Certainly, within the set-up of a particular MMO (including this one) there are nuances between the crafts that might turn one person toward or away from this or that craft. But in your argument here, those nuances are "facts not in evidence".
Your third point... doesn't exist, or at least its existence is a "fact not in evidence".
You don't like the crafting system as a whole, and that's fine. You've stated your distaste for it, and that's fine. You don't want to do it, and that's fine. However, you then make exaggerated claims regarding that system which are both logically and factually flawed, well... my opinion is that isn't fine.

And clearly, if you had your way, those of us who like crafting would continue to be in "supporting roles" that still HAVE to have combat jobs, rather than active and important players in the world that may forgo combat if we so desire.

In your HUMBLE opinion, I'm sure.

I have, multiple times in this thread, in reasoned arguments that are grounded in facts, and that account for the varied tastes of players who like different things.

This is a statement of pure opinion, hinging on the word "exorbitant", but your opinion also doesn't account for certain facts....
The first rank 50s made it in a month. Now that's clearly an unreasonable expectation for most of us with, you know, jobs, friends, families, interests other than ceaseless grinding. But you cannot argue this:
If you take that month (we won't even subtract the assumed occasional bathroom break, meals, and the biological necessity of OCCASIONAL periods of unconsciousness... aka: sleep), that is to say thirty-one days times twenty-four hours a day which is 744 hours, and subdivide it into smaller portions of time that fit your schedule (ex. 3 hours a day on weekdays, 5 hours a day on weekends, weekly total of 25 hours; actually modest play by some standards) then you can figure out how quickly you COULD hit rank 50. (Per the example: 25 hours a week, into 744 hours is 29.76... let's just say 30, weeks)
However, simply doing it by the numbers like this would be ignoring certain advantages (other than the aforementioned disregard for time needed for biological necessities) you have that the first rank 50s did not have.
In 31 days there are 20 leve-resets... the example, being spread over 30 weeks, gets a whopping 140. That is SEVEN TIMES as many opportunities for gil, items, and the occasion gear reward than the first 50s had... your results may vary.
Guardian's Aspect... same thing... the more concentrated amount of time you play, the less you have of it in your equation.
Anima... same thing... the more you spread out your playtime, the more you will recieve to make use of to cut down on travel times.
Available equipment and upgrades... have you gotten all of your gear from leve drops? If so, most of your eq would probably be incorrect for your class and/or rank and thus would be prone to breakage, and you wouldn't have been getting the best results from them. You have crafters available now that can make gear... but you have to occasionally interact with them to get what you need.... something I'm guessing you don't do for people in "supporting roles" (cuz you're the BIG STAR aren't you?)
As you stated gil as a concern, and the first 50s opportunities for gil from leves was highly restricted, then you have to look at the only four other ways to earn gil...
A) Fighting mobs that drop gil: also highly limited, but not impossible to obtain in this manner once you reach certain areas.
B) Selling loot to players: As they raced forward and started getting "Flaming Blade of Asswhoopin'" drops, they would have difficulty finding buyers who either needed or could offer a substantial sum for those items... they would have to just take what they could get... but spending time seeking buyers, or standing idle around the repair NPC was clearly not acceptable to them. Now they could have (and this is just a factual statement about the existence of a possibility, not a claim of what they did) sold the LOADS of shards/crystals that they were earning (and, at least at first, they were limited to stacks of 999) to crafters at prices the crafters could afford and made their money by moving large volumes quickly.
C) Vendor-trashing loot: highly time-efficient (no searching for a buyer there, you already know where they are, and if you needed to visit the vendor to buy something... like the Archer's stacks and stacks and stacks of Warped Arrows, then you are consolidating your time expenditure) and believe it or not, this can get you substantial sums of money (it's how I made my millions).
D) Crafting loot into more valuable commodities and THEN taking option B or C: obviously not their chosen path.... NOBODY with a sound rational mind is going to attempt to level a crafting job when they are aiming for ranking a combat class to 50 as quickly as possible... you do not get a return of gil that can make up for the time and materials spent, let alone the fact that after increasing the value you STILL have to find a buyer.

As far as "effort"... clearly all of the first 50s effort went into reaching 50 as quickly as possible. My effort has gone into playing all jobs. I have no idea what you are putting your efforts into, other than a lost argument.

Yes, you are correct... that is why there is a repair NPC that covers all levels of every type of gear (except jewlry) conveniently located in every major city. That NPC is at your beck and call, for FUNCTIONAL but not FULL repairs. Not to beat a dead horse about it... but who do you think the first 50s went to for repairs? Beyond a certain point no crafter would have had the skill to repair the gear they were wearing, let alone what it would have cost them in time to repeatedly remove and place their damaged gear in their bazaars, wait for each repair-synth to complete, and then re-don their equipment.

Good, because I neither want to... nor do I feel the need to in order to prove my point.

So... let me get this straight...
You don't like crafting (opinion)
You feel that the alternatives are unreasonable (opinion)
You feel that it makes the game unplayable (opinion... and... you know it's coming... first 50s)
You would define it as forced (opinion... but an opinion regarding a word that ACTUALLY has a standard definition)

YOU are the one playing semantics.

I think you could use a lesson in the difference between literal and figurative yourself... because your arguments are invalid in EITHER case...

Literal - someone is physically making you move your mouse and press the buttons to craft. (no one has argured this)
Figurative - you are being required to craft or face an unreasonable consequence. (which part exactly is unreasonable? Other than the made-up stuff? That you have to pay for repairs... no, that's not unreasonable. That there is a functional option available 24/7... nope, not that. That it will somehow keep you from reaching endgame? No, because that's not true *cough*first50s*cough*)

i.e. You make sh*t up while trying to express your personal opinions as facts.

Then you thought wrong... again. And thanks for proving my point above. As I recall, the primarily quoted major factors were laggy/clunky/not-user-friendly UI, and lack of content.

---"Was it the sole or primary reason? For some yes, for others, no."---

So it wasn't the "sole" or "primary" reason, but it was a "major factor"?!? What is this information based on........ oh, right, your previously stated distaste for crafting and your ability to make sh*t up.

---"Do I think this game could maintain the player base of WoW with the current craft/repair requirements? Absolutely not, which was the point I was getting at with prospective players."---

Yes, more of your opinions, based on ... (we know the answer at this point... don't we)

The first 50s, quite simply, did not craft. They did not need to, and neither do you. Their accomplishment, the facts that ARE in evidence, directly contradict your arguments which are based on NOTHING other than YOUR OPINIONS and made-up suppositions about what everyone else thinks, and stuff that you seem to excavate from your large intestine as you go...
But you know what? Even if they did think it was "forced" it would STILL be opinion and it would still be based on a personal definition of the word "forced" and it would still be ignorant of the FACTS.

You do NOT have to craft. If you do not like to craft, fine. However, your problem is with the fact that your gear gets damaged over time, eventually incurring penalties, and requires repair... repairs from someone who knows how to make that gear. Thus not forcing you to craft, but forcing you to interact with crafters but ONLY if you will not settle for the FUNCTIONAL 75% repair. And if you do NOT want to interact with people (and gods, at this point, I can see the benefits in that... for the crafters) AND you do not want to settle for 75% then yes, you do need to craft. But that is by no reasonable rational means being FORCED into it, even by your own definiton, because you have two other viable options, you just don't like them.

And... one last note before I am just done with this thread: as far as the repair system ENCOURAGING combat classes to interact with crafters as though, you know, they were in some sort of community together... I believe...
"That is working as intended"...
... but you are not.

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan


Sorry, I'm not going to continue this or even read all of that as you're spending way too much time on it. For future reference, keep your arguments clear and concise and avoid the 2300 word ramblings in response to 2 paragraphs. It's clear at this point you're M.O. is just to pervert every sentence piece-wise, make wild reaching assumptions, and put a lot of words in my mouth (all evidenced by the length of your response). I'm not going to waste any more time on it. I can honestly say I don't even know what your point or stance is, other than you seem to like crafting. Do you think the repair system is fine as is? Do you think it's reasonable to walk to town every 1-2 hours for repairs at NPC? Do you think 50k, 100k+ gil every 1-2 hours is acceptable for a 75% repair? Do you think it's fair or OK to hound friends or LS every 1-2 hours for a repair? If these questions didn't exist, we wouldn't have had this discussion in the first place.


Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 1:21pm by Furia
#96 Nov 22 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,214 posts
Rinsui wrote:
Fact stays: this game more or less forces players to craft.
Some like it, most don't care, some don't like it.
I wonder whether SE can affor losing those who don't.


It does not force you to craft. Because crafters have a higher physical level doesn't not mean you are forced to craft. By that logic, you should get your physical level capped before leveling any job so you are not gimped...

I think you are looking at this from the wrong direction. People are rewarded for crafting. Crafting does not get you items (with the exception of generic items from leves), crafting does not currently have any team play. So a reward to it makes it bearable for some people. If there was no added bonus to crafting, there would be no point in doing it for many people. And right now, there are three basic things you get out of crafting:
1) Turn something into something more expensive/useful
2) Repair stuffs
3) Gain Physical level

And I would say their importance are in that order.

DOL is very similar:
1) Get items that are rare or do not drop from creatures
2) Gain Physical level
3) Get shards

And what you get from DOW/DOM:
1) Get a TON of items
2) Get an obnoxious number of crystals/shards
3) Play with others


Now there are obviously other pros to each one, but to me, these are the most noticable. And there are also many different cons that can be applied to any of them. But at the end of the day, the balance between DOH/DOL/DOM/DOW is pretty impressive IMHO. Not one is truly so overpowering that everyone immediately said YOU MUST LVL THIS BEFORE DOING ANYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME.

And as you pointed out, your physical level is still staying above your rank. Which means you will still cap out your level before your rank on your first job. And as far as I can tell, from what different stats people have posted, it should be nearly impossible to not cap your rank by the time you get two jobs capped (let alone 1 job capped, and one job ~30). So, again, it seems a little moot to worry about crafters having a little higher physical level while leveling in the first 6 months of the game. There are always going to be balances and counter-balances.
#97 Nov 22 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
62 posts
westsidepatone wrote:
Let me explain more clearly what the OP I think is trying to say and what everyone else is seemingly oblivious to. I can understand because I am in the same boat and haven't played in weeks for the same reason.

Quote:
Difference is that they like crafting and that I don't


Let me point out the @#%^ing title of this post "FFXIV punishes those who dislike crafting". DISLIKES CRAFTING.

Quote:
It takes like 20 minutes of your time to do 8 crafting leves every couple of days. Just doing that alone can yield thousands and thousands of experience points. It's not like you have to worry about farming the items or go through some daunting task.

There's nothing to complain about. Crafters get more benefit because the game runs on crafters. Besides, there are DoW benefits to leveling crafters anyway


Did you even read the post before mindlessly spouting your irrelevant solution. "Oh, you don't like pizza? Why don't you eat a pizza then."

Regardless of how much more xp his friends are getting and if it's fair or not the OP DOES NOT WANT TO CRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the OP wants to grind let him grind(btw he is being penalized for not wanting to craft since his friends have a higher physical level). Why the **** would he spend even 20 minutes a day doing something he hates? This is supposed to be a recreational game not some dead end job you need to trudge thru to pay your bills. Majidah, if you don't want to craft don't. It's that simple. Don't listen to people whose suggestions to solve your problem involve you participating in what you have a problem with in the first place. It's frigging asinine. SE screwed the pooch on the implementation of the crafting system and made it way way too integral to the basic gameplay of FFXIV.


If OP doesn't like crafting, why did he buy a game that is based largely on crafting?

If you hate farming, would you buy harvest moon? If you hate RTS games, would you go buy starcraft 2? Sounds to me like the TS is just an idiot... I assume SE was trying to make a unique MMO that took crafting in a different direction. I happen to like it, as do others. I knew what to expect because I read reviews before I bought the game.

But hey, if you think your approach makes more sense then by all means, go buy the latest SIMS game then complain that there aren't enough monsters to kill. Idiot.
#98 Nov 22 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
There can't be multiple games inside one. This game focus on:

- grinding
- crafting
- exploring
- socializing


You are not obliged to do them but you gotta face the results of skipping each one of these. If you absolutely hate crafting, then MMORPGs are not for you. I think you should wait for Diablo 3 or any other Online RPG.
#99 Nov 22 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
17 posts
In this thread: people strenuously posting walls of text to prove that black is white, up is down, doing your crafting leves takes 20 minutes, and crafting is mentally engaging.

So amusing.
#100 Nov 22 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
551 posts
MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
There can't be multiple games inside one. This game focus on:

- grinding
- crafting
- exploring
- socializing


You are not obliged to do them but you gotta face the results of skipping each one of these. If you absolutely hate crafting, then MMORPGs are not for you. I think you should wait for Diablo 3 or any other Online RPG.


Then why is it I have played ever other mmo from Meridian 59 to the latest and greatest, and never once felt like I had to craft? Outside of Ryzom, which is heavily craft-focused, yet crafting there is far more complex than FFXIV's (then again, so is their battle system) yet still fun.
____________________________



#101 Nov 22 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
***
1,608 posts
I wish someone would volunteer to grab a handful of my pubes and just rip them out by the roots every time I didn't feel like crafting.

It has to be a surprise, that's why I can't do it myself.
____________________________

This thread is locked
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (20)