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Crafters, and YOUFollow

#1 Nov 22 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I see a bunch of misinformation leaking from the battlecraft side of the crafting game. This is hopefully to clear up that misinformation.

There's really three parts to the equation. First off, let me say this. Crafting in Final Fantasy 14 is a full time job. This is new to the MMO genre (The only one I could think of which was blurred is Lineage 2, but even then Artisans could attack for more than 7 damage / rock at R50). Crafting IS a full time job. Getting to rank 50 crafting is just as hard, if not harder, to get to as a Rank 50 conjurer or gladiator or etc. These are not NPCs, these are actual people who choose to play the game by crafting, and should hold as much respect, if not more respect, than they hold you.

That said:

1) Price Gouging

One of the biggest complaints I hear against crafters is "All they try to do is price-gouge us!". To a certain extent, this is completely true for the very first crafters on the server. When weavers first started hitting R24 across all servers, you started to see undyed canvas selling for 30k-50k/piece. Blacksmiths in particular needed this cloth to make their Rank 12 and beyond hammers.

However, is this so wrong? Do we not do the same thing?

I'd like to introduce you to two things: Apkallus, and Shards.

Apkallus are a high rank mob who drop things which weavers need to create Berets (Much akin to how Blacksmiths need Canvas for hammers, weavers need apkallu down for every beret, whether it's hempen (Rank 5), or Velveteen (Not rank 5). However, Apkallu drop off of Rank 50 monsters. When parties on Selbina first began to find and kill Apkallu for their down, you could easily see this material selling for 100k in JP stores. In the later weeks, the price went down, and is currently 30k-50k in each store stocking apkallu down.

How is this ANY different than what they did with Undyed Canvas?

I do not think Price Gouging is a bad thing. For one, there are multiple crafters on each server. I'd like to bring up a personal example for this too. On Selbina, there are two very high rank blacksmiths, Mina Mina, and Exam Mage. I was trying to make an Iron Lance, a ~R30 weapon, and it required a R40+ Head to create.

I gathered the require Iron Ingots, and noticed Mina Mina wasn't on so I checked the next the next highest rank, Exam Mage. Through my horrible Japanese negotiation skills, he basically said, "I'll create 4 iron lance heads, my materials, for 500k each = 2m gil". I laughed at this, waited the two hours for Mina to come online, and he did it for 70k. I gave him a very, very nice tip, and use Mina to this day. He got a loyal customer who tips nicely and asks for lots of lance heads. In fact, if anything, I tell people to NOT use Exam Mage, and I advertise willingly throughout my friends that Mina Mina is very nice.

Whether you see it or not, you also take advantage of basic economics with the price of shards. Simply put, the most efficient way to get shards is to simply be a disciple of war / magic class. When you go outside of Gridania, you get six shards by killing the first marmot you see, IF NOT MORE. (By the way, Crystal = 16x shards. It's a low level alchemy synth, making it possible you get 22x of one type of shard per monster). How long does it take for a Disciple of the Hand to get 6 shards? They have to wait for a leve-reset. There's absolutely no way for a disciple of the hand to get shards besides wait for a reset. However- most disciple of the hands are also disciple of the lands, to get their gathering materials. They get an average of 2 shards per successful gather, which means they make those 22 potential shards in about ten minutes. Simply put, shard economics are greatly skewed in your favor.

To put this in a way you can understand, imagine the only class in the entire game was archer. Your arrows are not npc-buyable. Every shot costs you 100g for the sh*tty cheap arrows, but up to 350g for the high level arrows. Sometimes though, against certain monsters, you need to actually shoot mother@#%^ing crystals, which go for 4k each. Without shards, crafters cannot level up. And they can't get them as well as you can.

When you sell your shards and crystals at market price or above market price, you are fueling supply and demand. It might be a little bit cryptic, but the lower you sell your shards, the lower the crafter can sell their goods. Why? Because it costs them less to make the item. If a shard costs 400g each, you won't see a crafter selling an 8shard-synth for 1k unless they were forced to (See: Half-masks and Carpenters, Silver Needles, and Ornamental Iron Hammer Heads). However, If that shard costed 100g each, seeing a crafter selling a 8 shard synth for 1k is actually a possibility.


2) The Crafting System

The purpose of most crafts are to supply the world with a multitude of high rank weapons. When release first came out / open beta first came out, many people complained about how inter-woven the crafting system is. To make a blacksmith hammer, you need a piece of undyed canvas. To make any low rank weapon, you need Fish Glue. To make Bone Hora, you need a drop off of some randomass spider-thing out in the woods somewhere.

However, the recipes follow a set of rules. It's really not that bad when you learn the pattern. Some items are scaling, other items are non-scaling. Scaling items scale with their rank in terms of recipe, and non-scaling items do not scale with their rank in terms of recipe.

Put the blacksmith hammer into account. A common complaint was "What the ****, my rank 7 tool requires a R29 material." Guess what the Rank 14 tool requires? A Rank 29 material. Guess what the rank 21 tool requires? A rank 29 material. The R32 tool? R29 material.

It looks unreasonable when you look at it from the perspective of a rank 7, however if you keep going, it's completely understandable. In fact, it actually works out to your favor as you get higher and higher rank.


3) Repairs

Crafters WANT to repair your things. Simply put, they have already put the work into getting to a high enough rank to repair your things (Which is no easy task, by the way), and they could use a little bit of cash on the side.

However, a few problems arise with this.

1) Sometimes, people want repairs anywhere they go. A crafter is a living, breathing human being with their own set of priorities. And sometimes, repairing your stuff is not high on their priority list. Don't hate the game because there's no crafters in your respective town.

Most commonly, the best thing to do when you need a repair is to go to the repair NPC and look around for a crafter. Sitting there /shouting "(Repair) (Can I have it?) (Armorer) R40+" is not going to do you any good if there are no R40+ armorers there to repair your sh*t.

Instead of sitting there ********* go find something else to do until a repairsman returns, or go visit their guild if it's located within the city. With the guildleve system being the way it is, you have all types of crafters in all three cities. If it were not for this, everyone would either be in ul'dah or the city where their guild is. Luckily, you have all types of crafters roaming everywhere because they need to get quests done for different cities. This makes it easier to find one, which makes it easier to get repairs.

If I cannot find a repair, I do the following:
a) Check the repair NPC
b) Check the respective guilds
c) Check the quest NPCs located in that town
d) Go on with my life and check again in 30 minutes or after I finish up town duties such as getting levequests, managing my retainer, etc.

And when you do find a crafter, the absolute fastest way to get their attention is in between synths, when their chatbox isn't flooded with "You attempt a Standard Sythesis".

2) Repair Materials

Sometimes, your craft can use some pretty hella weird materials to fix. For weaving, you see mostly Fents. Hempen Fent, Cotton Fent, Canvas Fent, Velveteen Fent. With blacksmith you see squares, leatherworkers spletches, and so on and so on. But sometimes, you have some pretty hella weird materials. Pine Crook require beastkin blood to repair. Plumed pine crook require Brass squares, an armorer item, on a goldsmithing synthesis (They actually cannot make brass squares themselves). Tortoiseshell Horas which use Tortoiseshells, a R35 Goldsmith / R25 LW sub synth.

Put a little bit of research into what you're wearing. A majority of the items are pretty good, however there are some outliers, and some things that aren't even worth it to repair. If the repair item is rare, don't expect someone to magically be able to repair your stuff. Personally, I carry Brass Squares with me. When I find a high rank goldsmith, I throw them a few and ask them to repair my plumed crooks, since they're likely to not have any themselves.

And that brings me to my next point.

3) Repair Prices.

Even if you have the repair material, giving someone 1k for a repair is an insult.

Don't think of it like, "Hey, it's just 1 minute of work. He doesn't deserve any money". It's actually the exact opposite.

He didn't put in "One minute of work". He put in HOURS and HOURS of leveling crafts. Hours and hours of working at synthesises. Again, crafting is a full time job.

Look at it this way. When you do a guildleve, how much gil do you get? Now, why are you not even giving 1/25th of that for a repair which you need done once every five hours?

I think it's extremely sad that the norm is ~5k/repair. Honestly. The amount of shards needed to get a single rank is honestly stupidly high, and the amount of time it takes to rank up is huge too. So why are you paying this person hardly a FRACTION of what you get in a single guildleve?

It just leaves me really salty. And then you guys ***** that people sell canvas for 30k/each. What do you expect?



I'll end with a few tips.
1) Weapons degrade in about 2 hours of constant grinding. They hit the 50% at around 1 and a half hours, and after a bit more they turn red. Carry multiple weapons. One of the things I see you guys complaining about on the forums is the fact that everyone has crazy high rank gear at low ranks. This is not because it's a bad system, it's because the gear is cheap. Since the gear is cheap, buy multiple of them. And suddenly repair problems are no more, just switch your weapon and you're ready for another 2 hours of constant grinding.

2) When making items, pay in shards (and maybe gil). Seriously. Crafters LOVE that sh*t. Back when Iron Falchions were 200-250k each, Mina Mina had two in his bazaar. My friend, who doesn't craft outside of guildleves, wanted these falchions, but didn't want to spend the money. They haggled using shards. My friend ended up paying 200k in shards for both of them. That's like a 50% discount, and the crafter doesn't mind at all. Shards are like food to these people. Those thousands of gil in shards you have is potential income.

3) Don't be a **** to crafters. You be a **** to them, they be a **** to you back. Be polite, wait until they finish their synth so they don't have to scroll up.

4) If your server is dying and you only see JP crafters, but you want to make an item-

Lets say you want to make a Heavy Iron Lance Head, but you don't speak a lick of Japanese.

1) Look up Heavy Iron Lance Head on ZAM.
2) Select Heavy Iron Lance Head
3) Switch the language to Japanese
4) Highlight where Heavy Iron Lance head WAS. That's the Japanese name for it ( ヘヴィランスヘッド(アイアン) )
5) Change it back to English.

Poof. Works with french and deutch too.

5) Create multiples. If you're going out of your way to make 1x bone hora, might as well make 4x bone horas. That way you're failproof (relatively), and you have extras for your durability.

And by the way, don't blame the crafter for failing, unless you see them sitting there TRYING to break your stuff. sh*t happens. Sometimes the planets are misaligned and it's the wrong daily element. Nobody knows about this sh*t yet.

By the way, this post isn't 3 days old. It's almost 24 hours old :)


Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 2:08am by Meowshi
#2ironmonk25, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 4:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) and i stopped reading right here. "These are not NPCs, these are actual people who choose to play the game by crafting, and should hold as much respect, if not more respect, than they hold you." .....nah! crafters arent equally! we are actually superior compared to you battlecrafters! and nah we do not deserve equal respect! we deserve more respect then you peons!
#3Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 4:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) good post just disagree with the "fee" portion for repairs.
#4 Nov 22 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
good post just disagree with the "fee" portion for repairs.
first off if you provide the mats, no payment should be needed. Why should someone pay a fee just because you leved it? Its like paying white mages to cure in a party. If you don't buy the mats then i would see payment needed.and should be equal to the worth of mats used.

Sorry if this may seem to offend the crafters, I just find it rediculous to have to pay someone a ton of gil for something that don;t time that much time.


Lets take your argument a step further.

Each guild sells their respective repair materials. You can buy any type of fent inside the ul'dah weaver guild. You can buy spletches at gridanian leatherworker's guild. Etc. etc.

Do you think that it is fair to be able to stop a crafter, ask them to repair your stuff, and offer them no money? After all, you already bought the fents yourself.

By asking for a repair, you are paying them for the amount of time it took them to level their craft.

And it's not like paying white mages to cure in your party. It's like stopping a random white mage not in your party, and asking them to buff you/heal you, and then not paying them / throwing an ether at them.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 5:20am by Meowshi
#5 Nov 22 2010 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Huh!?

I made a post yesterday about not finding a crafter to repair my gear, so I am
definitely on the receiving side of the problem, but... I am perfectly willing
to pay crafters a fair price for their repairs; after all, I do "waste" their
time (they seem to get only marginal EXP for repairs and have to stop what they
are doing to repair and walk up to you).

The WHM you use as an example gets enough EXP to compensate him for his heals.
The only real problem I see is a) the wait for a crafter willing to repair and
b) overpriced repairs.
#6Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 4:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i don't stop random ppl. Nor do most ppl. If anything i ask if they are busy. If so i don;t bother them further. But anyway further my 0-hat drop example.
#7 Nov 22 2010 at 4:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm a crafter and whenever I do need stuff repaired I usually put it in my bazaar for over 3k. Some I have put in at 10k as the item is a little more expensive or its a higher rank.

It makes me laugh that people think crafters should get nothing for repairs. Thats fine as long as those same DoW/DoM are happy to sell all of their crystals / shards at 1g each.

Compare the cost to the repair NPC for an only 75% repair.... there is no contest and gil is practically growing on trees in this game.
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#8 Nov 22 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
i don't stop random ppl. Nor do most ppl. If anything i ask if they are busy. If so i don;t bother them further. But anyway further my 0-hat drop example.
its was hard to hunt/buy all the eyes needed. and if you bought the eyes it ranged from 10-50K for each eye. (this was when i got it years ago) so i spent weeks to hunt for them, or spent about 90-100K on them just to shout for help and have to pay them 500K just to craft it?
I hope the more detailed helps you see it from my point.
I'd assume knowing ppl, plauers shout for repair needs. And is up to the crafter to repair or not. If you wasn't doing anything, why should you charge a fee when presented items. All you are doing is spending 1-5 min max fixing an item.
Like why should I spend say 50K gil to get mats to repair my items only to pay an addition 10K, just because your doing the service.
In a sence the customer did nost of the work, you just do the easy part.
why should ypu get paid not not doing as much of the work for said item?


Because that "service", isn't easy.

We can allude to real life examples. Lets say you have a carpenter and you want him to build you a bookshelf. You supply him with the wood. Do you think he's going to make it for free? After all, you tracked down super ultra rare wood for $3000/piece.

Frankly, it doesn't matter how much your synthesis costs to the crafter. He couldn't care less, and if he could, it's purely for a profit basis. It's not the crafter's job to show pity.

If the "service" is so easy, do it yourself. Level up your carpenter to R40 and make your own spear. Until then, I'll be enjoying my spear because I paid off a dedicated carpenter a month ago to make it for me.

You are VASTLY underestimating the time and effort it takes to level up a craft. This isn't WoW where you get one rank / recipe. You do more recipes going from R40-->41 than you do 1-450 or whatever the cap is in WoW.
#9 Nov 22 2010 at 4:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I suppose I can see both sides. As a crafter who makes most of her money off repairs, I can tell you that I won't do it unless I make a 2k profit. Its a little different if I'm not really busy and I see a shout and you have the mats. But checking bazaars is annoying (and time consuming) as ****. If I don't feel its worth my time to do it, I don't do it.

Battlecrafters, why aren't you still killing star marmots and dodos? Might it have something to do with the fact that you aren't getting any kind of reward? No shards? No SP? ....guess what a repair is to us?

I bet most of you can kill a star marmot faster than I can browse your bazaar, select the item, find the repair mat in my inventory and do it. Lets not even add on the time to trade if you have the mats.

Why don't you just have the NPC repair your items? I swear its hella fast compared to any real crafter.

<rant>
What was that?
I'm sorry, did you say it costs like 40,000 gil to repair your r25 weapon?
Why yes, yes, I would love to do the same job (25% better) for roughly 2-3% of their price.
</rant>

I level my crafts so I don't have to pay those ridiculous NPC repair prices. What are you doing?
That's right, you're ******** at me because I don't want to spend even MORE time repairing stuff so you can go out and have fun.... for next to nothing.

When I repair my Mahogany Radical, I save AT LEAST 30k and that's quite alright by me. When I repair your bow, I'm lucky to be offered 1000 gil... that's quite the difference.

Speaking of quite the difference, it's one thing to help another player. Its another to help a player who is expecting the help from me, but doesn't have ANY interest in helping me.

:-/

That isn't a mutually beneficial arrangement. When I want something done, I try honey. People offering vinegar and **** are welcome to go level their own crafts.
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#10Sethern79, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 5:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And this is why DoW/DoM class hate crafters. I don't give a crap what you think you "deserve" you are no better than anyone who plays this game. Its people like you who give crafters a bad name. This is also why repairs need to be taken out of the crafters hands!
#11Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 5:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol you guys are wierd. Sorry but lets flip it. I dispise being taken advantage of. You guys are acting like con man. I;m not paying you because you leveled a craft. So it wasn't easy that isn't the issue nor should be the reason for asking for a hand out. And If you look at my examples those are from ffxi. I disliked WoWs crafting system and jumping to what I saying is from wow is kinda rude. As my reasoning is from ffxi. And it was harder to craft in ffxi. But if you give them the mats no fee.
#12ironmonk25, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 5:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i need you to go back and read what i typed again.....really slowly.....really really slowly. please post again if you need more help
#13 Nov 22 2010 at 5:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
you will be nothing more than a fleemarket that low lvls go to


I'll LOL so hard when you walk up to a r50 crafter and say:
"FLEAMARKET PEON, FIX MY GOD GEAR FOR FREE AND BE GRATEFUL I'M ALLOWING YOU TO TOUCH IT."

and they lol at you while you walk around with broke-*** gears.
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#14 Nov 22 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Right now people are not paying enough for repairs and that is the bottom line.

They should be paying about 50% of what the NPC does it for, at the very least.

You're getting an extra 25% durability and a way cheaper price with the only downside being convenience.

There is a reason why the majority of people are running around with millions and millions of gil and can buy whatever they feel from the wards and that is because one of the primary gilsinks in the game are not being taken advantage of or being utilized.

The reason is because repairing is undervalued and people are not treating it like a main class and are instead treating it like crafting in other games where it generally takes less than 5% of the time to max out crafting as opposed to a "battle" class.

I do a little bit of everything and love the convenience and cheap prices it costs me to keep my gear up to scratch and someone offering me 5k for a repair or even worse expecting me to do it for free with their mats is a huge insult to someone who has worked their **** off and put as much time into leveling crafting as others have with their war classes. I would not hand you a weapon and send you off to kill 50 marmots for me and expect you to give me all the shards and drops for free, just because I provided the weapon for you to use. I understand those materials may drop from high level mobs, high level mobs you've spent time leveling up to so you can kill and acquire those materials which I cannot do because I am a crafter so I would pay you for your time and your EXPERTISE along with the price of the materials.

Crafters are more than willing to help you, just understand and cut them some slack when it comes to repair prices and rewards. ****, if you keep regular with the same crafter or get someone from your LS to do it you'll find they'll generally end up doing it for free after a while if you go to them consistently and strike up a friendship with them.

The game is about socializing, do it, appreciate and respect others and you will not have any problems :)

PS: I totally agree with what the guy said above. You wouldn't ask a carpenter to spend time building you a cabinet for free if you provided the wood in real life, apply the same rule here in rewarding people for their time and effort in their abilities and you won't have any problems.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 6:18am by tylerbee
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#15Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 5:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) with your real life example i would own the guy way more money. I would have been charged a labor feel for how long he was a carpenter. Thats basing it on your logic for paying a fee if given mats.
#16 Nov 22 2010 at 5:23 AM Rating: Good
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Irishclass777 wrote:
with your real life example i would own the guy way more money. I would have been charged a labor feel for how long he was a carpenter. Thats basing it on your logic for paying a fee if given mats.
Like whms making you pay 10K just to be warped somewhere.
In real life this is how its done. Payment is payed to the crafter based on labor and materials used. And is done based on time needed to be spent on said project. And it takes time to find the right matierals for the job.
example i order a bed frame made out of say cherrywood. I would pay he carpenter the fee for the amount of cherry wood used, and the weeks full of work it took to make it. crafters in mmo in reality, make more money making items. with repairs you are not really making the item. You are just patching it up. there is a differecne with that. If i give you mats and ask you to make something i may or may not tip. With repairs I'm giving you an item I already own. I give you mats I already bought. all you do is mend it.


If I was a carpenter and you walked into my shop with a broken hammer and a roll of tape to repair it with because you couldn't do it yourself because you lacked the experience then I am going to charge you for the time it takes me to fix that hammer and also charge you for my expertise in fixing hammers which i've acquired over a number of years.

If you tell me you aren't going to pay me for my time because you bought your own tape, I am going to laugh in your face because that isn't the way the world works.


Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 6:24am by tylerbee
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#17 Nov 22 2010 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you tell me you aren't going to pay me for my time because you bought your own tape, I am going to laugh in your face because that isn't the way the world works.



Yes, what he said is just ridiculous. Like: I'm not going to pay at the car wash because it's my car. >.>/
#18Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 5:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) again why should I pay for repairs, when i did most of the work to get it repaired, all you are doing is providing the skill I lack. How bout this DO NOT BE GREEDY.
#19 Nov 22 2010 at 5:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
again why should I pay for repairs, when i did most of the work to get it repaired, all you are doing is providing the skill I lack. How bout this DO NOT BE GREEDY.
You guys will make money MAKING items. repairing is more or less a side skill. I love you you guys think its unfair. When you guys are the ones being unfair. With the carpenter. If you give him the wood all you do is pay for labor. Which based on how long, its about a week. And because he is physically doing stuff that can be dangerous. there is no danger in item repair.
And like i said if i am not providing you the mats you do get payed for the price of said mats. That is due to you are doing more work then myself.


It's very, very cheap to make items. Haburgeons, Mucuatils, etc. are dirt cheap, and they sell like sh*t. Only high rank crafters make "tons of money making items". The people in the middle and low rank are at a loss per synth due to the absurdly high shard prices. Since you can make these ****** easy items, people usually skip out on more expensive synths and just load up on these.

And this argument really only has two sides.

You believe they should not be compensated for the amount of time it took them to rank up to be able to repair your stuff, because it just takes "a minute of clicking". You think they should do it for free to be "nice" and to "not take advantage of the system"
Others believe that they should be compensated because of the hours and hours of work it takes, plus the fact that they have a service that you cannot do.

Since you don't want to change your mind about it, it's impossible to debate further.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 6:36am by Meowshi
#20Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 5:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) bad way to put it and are missing the key point.
#21 Nov 22 2010 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
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Irishclass777 wrote:
again why should I pay for repairs, when i did most of the work to get it repaired, all you are doing is providing the skill I lack. How bout this DO NOT BE GREEDY.
You guys will make money MAKING items. repairing is more or less a side skill. I love you you guys think its unfair. When you guys are the ones being unfair. With the carpenter. If you give him the wood all you do is pay for labor. Which based on how long, its about a week. And because he is physically doing stuff that can be dangerous. there is no danger in item repair.
And like i said if i am not providing you the mats you do get payed for the price of said mats. That is due to you are doing more work then myself.


Let me put it another way for you. People spend alot of time in schools and educational instituitions earning diplomas and degrees to further their qualifications. The reason they do this for years is to acquire a particular skill or qualification that other members of the community lack but may be proficient in other areas, it is all about specialization.

This person will set out to find work and will be paid accordingly due to how much time they've put into their profession. Someone who has studied for ten years to be a mechanic for instance will get more than someone who has only studied for a year based on what he can accomplish over the newbie. A lawyer will make alot of money practicing law and you are hiring them for their services and experience. It isn't primarily based on how much time or effort it takes to do a particular task, it is based on how qualified they are and what they can do for you due to what they know and are trained in.

If you come to someone asking for a service, regardless if you are providing the materials for that service or not, you are expected to pay them for their experience in that field and how much their time is worth to them.

Crafters are not being greedy, they are simply asking for you to pay them for the hard work they've put in developing their craft.

PS: Currently, with the fierce competition in crafting for this game margins are extremely low. There is next to no cash to be made from crafting unless you're right at the top of the curve. You might be surprised to find out that crafting actually makes you lose money due to the ridiculous prices that DoW/DoM are selling shards for currently, but that is a different story.

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#22Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 5:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) the game is out for how long? lol. Sorry i really wish for you to get yourhad out of the clouds. I'm not resonsible or should be held accountable for your crafting.
#23Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 5:57 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i'm sorry but in no game are crafters giving payment for labor on them leveling a craft. For the reason that you are not physically doing the craft. Just because you level a craft in a video game, and it took you time to do it. Don't expect to get paid for labor. with you twos logic you not only chage the fe for items/ mats used by a labor tax. For example. Say i am a fisherman. I work hard everyday logging on the game to sit and fish. I watch a ton of fish and sell it to you for say 1K a stack + a 20K fee for labor (meaning 1K a day for the 8 hours a day x 20 days it took me to get that one stack of fish)
#24 Nov 22 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
the game is out for how long? lol. Sorry i really wish for you to get yourhad out of the clouds. I'm not resonsible or should be held accountable for your crafting.


No, but you are requesting a service from me. I spent alot of time leveling that service and I put a price on it. Whether or not you choose to pay that price is your choice. PS: The majority of crafters share this opinion.

Irishclass777 wrote:
I see it as I scratch your back, you scratch mine.I provide you with mats. that is your fee. Since you are not spending money.


A typical synthesis at the appropriate level nets 250-300 SP. Repairing an item gives 50 SP. At level 27 I am 35000 SP to next level. A repair takes a minute or two. It would take me 700 minutes worth of repairs to level, that is around 12 hours worth of repairs. I'm sorry, but your mats for a measly 50 SP gain isn't worth it. I require payment on top to make it worth my time. Are you beginning to understand now?

Irishclass777 wrote:
thats how it works in video games. Me taking advantage of you is making you spend money then NOT paying. But that isn't the case. With your logic, I lose money and work to get my item repaired as you make money doing nothing but a skill. Kind of a** backward. Sorry but again really think about it in terms of game logic not real life.


That is how it works in SOME Video games. There is no rule that applies to all games, because all games are very different. FFXIV has a repair system and it is there for a reason and that is not to give repairs to other players for free. If they don't want to pay for my time and skill, they can visit an NPC and get overcharged and under-repaired. It was quite clear Square Enix's intention with this system and that was for crafters to be rewarded for doing repairs and making it worthwhile. Doing it for free isn't worthwhile. Sorry if this is news to you. We are losing money by wasting time doing your repairs for free. We could be using that time to craft items to sell, or repair other peoples gear who are paying us. If you'd rather lose money getting repairs from the NPC, that is your choice. You can lose a fraction and have a better job done by another player though.

Irishclass777 wrote:
Any payment a crafter gets is based on either 1 fee of the item in question, 2 cost of mats. it can be either or. with repairs it is pretty much the same way. you should only get paid for cost of mats. Since you are not making the item. But since I am providing that why should i pay you any further? It isn't like you lose money repairing an item. you just not gaining money.


You are applying crafting rules from other games to here. Other games don't have repair systems so new rules are made. The rules have been set by SE quite clearly yet you neglect to acknowledge them, there is a reason why the price of repair from the NPC is high and only takes you to 75% - SE want you to socialize with other players and pay them for repairs to create an economy. Again, we are losing money because time = money, friend.

I think you should take up crafting to at least level 20, then you tell me again that I should do this all for free out of the goodness of my heart.
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#25 Nov 22 2010 at 6:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Another one of these? Crafters NEED gil to buy mats/shards to level up....fighters NEED repairs to fight and level up and bring back more shards & mats to sell at outrageous prices. I'm just copying a post I made in the other thread about repairs...

Because worrying about virtual money is silly. Like was mentioned though, we should make everything in the game free then. Unless everyone gets on the bandwagon for that, I'm going to need gil somewhere along the line. Because money is really important to some, it becomes more important than it should be to me. Why should one of my ways of earning gil in the system be shortchanged when others are keeping high prices for theirs?

Yes, repairing an item for someone is a simple process. Nothing to be glorified for sure. But while I'm helping them get repairs so they can progress further in the game, a decent reward is a nice gesture that returns the favor by helping me progress.

Maybe some crafters take it too far and demand "con man"-type prices for repairs, I don't and a lot of others on these forums don't either. Saying we all do is pure bullsh*t.


Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 7:21am by TwistedOwl
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#26 Nov 22 2010 at 6:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
the game is out for how long? lol. Sorry i really wish for you to get yourhad out of the clouds. I'm not resonsible or should be held accountable for your crafting.
I see it as I scratch your back, you scratch mine. I provide you with mats. that is your fee. Since you are not spending money. thats how it works in video games. Me taking advantage of you is making you spend money then NOT paying. But that isn't the case. With your logic, I lose money and work to get my item repaired as you make money doing nothing but a skill. Kind of a** backward. Sorry but again really think about it in terms of game logic not real life. Any payment a crafter gets is based on either 1 fee of the item in question, 2 cost of mats. it can be either or. with repairs it is pretty much the same way. you should only get paid for cost of mats. Since you are not making the item. But since I am providing that why should i pay you any further? It isn't like you lose money repairing an item. you just not gaining money.


Im not a crafter and I can tell you you are wrong here. I hate the fact that crafters think they are better than DoW/DoM classes. I love to lash out at dushbag crafters who like to think them self the best thing since sliced bread. but that dose not mean I think crafters should do what they do for free. Most of the time I go by the 3x cost rull when getting a repair.

Lets say I need my shield repaired. The item needed to repair said shield cost 2k. well I would then offer 6k for that repair. 2k for the cost of mats and 4k to the crafter for taking the time to repair my shield. Im not paying them for the time it took to lvl crafting im paying them for the time spent repairing my gear.

If anything I think SE needs to take repairs out of the hands of crafters and let the NPC repair to 100%. And im willing to be that with in the next year they will. quote me on that. One year from now repairs will be 100% npc and not crafters bet on it!

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 7:06am by Sethern79
#27 Nov 22 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
the game is out for how long? lol. Sorry i really wish for you to get yourhad out of the clouds. I'm not resonsible or should be held accountable for your crafting.
I see it as I scratch your back, you scratch mine. I provide you with mats. that is your fee. Since you are not spending money. thats how it works in video games. Me taking advantage of you is making you spend money then NOT paying. But that isn't the case. With your logic, I lose money and work to get my item repaired as you make money doing nothing but a skill. Kind of a** backward. Sorry but again really think about it in terms of game logic not real life. Any payment a crafter gets is based on either 1 fee of the item in question, 2 cost of mats. it can be either or. with repairs it is pretty much the same way. you should only get paid for cost of mats. Since you are not making the item. But since I am providing that why should i pay you any further? It isn't like you lose money repairing an item. you just not gaining money.


lol this dude has to be trolling. First of all how are you scratching a crafters back by providing materials that they will promptly use for almost no exp while wasting their time.

I'm a 42 carpenter, 40 leatherworker and if someone came up to me asking for a repair for a T4 or T5 item and wanted to waste my time trading with me then having me deal with the clunky and laggy UI to repair your item for free I would ignore you then /blist you.

Lets show an example,
From 42-43 carpenter, it takes about 400 yew lumber for grinding. Let's say you get 5 lumber per log taking into account some HQs, that's 80 yew logs which could be sold for 9k-10k each on Selbina. This also takes 80*12 = 960 wind shards @ 350g each = 336K, and then 4 wind/4 ice per lumber = 1600 of each @ 350/200 respectively = 880K. So basically about 2 mil gil to get one level, you get back 1330 per mask so assuming you don't fail you get back about 500K of that. Just in mats alone you are down 1.5m, which obviously is going to be recouped in the form of sales and repairs.

Then you have to factor in time, because time = money. You get about 45 synths per hour, so it takes about 9 hours for the masks and 2 hours for the logs + you have to take into account time to vendor masks, trade for shards, mats, etc. During those 12+ hours an adventurer can farm hundreds of shards and crystals, plus mob drops if you're smart. Not to mention the fact that you're looking at a screen and pressing enter for hours crafting. Luckily I dual box and adventure on my 2nd char so it's not as bad for me.

So all that time and cost goes into repairs and crafted goods. I'm interested in what level you are, because I don't know any high level crafter who would deal with your repairs and bullsh*t for free.

So you can either:
1. Pay a fair price which means repair from the vendor for 40k for 75%, or pay a crafter 5K-10K for 100%
2. Waste your time shouting for 30 minutes and waiting for the 1% chance someone will deal with your bullsh*t, when a smart person would pay the 5K, take 1 minute to repair, and then go outside and kill two mobs for shard drops to pay that 5k back.

Your post obviously shows your level of intelligence. Because anyone smart would pay a crafter for their time, make friends with a crafter for future needs, and then use their time wisely and make 10x the gil in the same amount of time killing a few mobs instead of sitting in Ul'dah shouting like a cheapass.

Let me know how being cheap works out for you when you make it past level 20 and actually have to deal with crafters.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 7:45am by Strifexx
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#28 Nov 22 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Crafters are not being greedy, they are simply asking for you to pay them for the hard work they've put in developing their craft.
In terms of repairs, I don't feel this is a realistic expectation. I will happily pay the NPC cost of repair mats + 5k-10k tip, but expecting players to pay costs equal to 50% of NPC repair as stated earlier is silly. For that price, a player would be better off just leveling the craft themselves, as many have.

This is not to to say crafters haven't put in effort and expense; they definitely have. One need only look at the list of materials and crafting ranks needed to produce a piece of r35+ gear to see that crafting is no casual nor easy undertaking. The price of higher level gear is justified by this effort and expense, but if youre paying for or providing your own mats for repair - which you SHOULD - then a small tip seems fine.
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#29 Nov 22 2010 at 6:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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@irishclass777:

If you don't want me to pay me, why don't you just fix it yourself?

If you said anything other than "Because it takes a crap-ton of time" you're just lying to yourself.
If you actually said something like "Because it takes a crap-ton of time" then you should reward that hard work.


STORY TIME!
Guy goes out and does leves all week long. Comes back into town with a sack full of shiny gil, shards and materials and a ton of broken stuff. Now this guy, being the businessman he is, thinks to himself "I should sell these pretty shards and materials for MORE shiny gil! I wonder who would want them? I bet my friend the crafter will!"

So guy goes out and finds his friend, the crafter. He says "Hello, my friend, the crafter! I was hoping you might need some shards and materials!" Being the dutiful crafter he is, the crafter says "Why yes, I cannot do my job without them, like you cannot do yours without your trusty sword!"

The seasoned adventurer looks down at his blood-stained blunt sword and says, "Swords! I think I need a new sword. I'll give you 100k for your best sword!" Now the crafter thinks about this, since it costs 97k to make, and he spent all week losing money to be able to help his friend the adventurer. He explains his situation to his seasoned adventurer friend, who in turn replies, "I have a big shiny sack full of gil! I will go buy all the materials and shards you need to make the sword! I will give you 1000 gil too!" The crafter reluctantly agrees, since now he'll only make 1000, instead of the paltry 3000 before.

After the new sword is made, the seasoned adventurer swings it around, looking happy with his purchase. He turns back to the crafter and says "You wanted these wind shards, didn't you? I will sell you all 500 for 300gil each!" The crafter scratches his head and says, "That's 150,000 gil. That's pretty expensive." To which the adventurer replies, "Well, the going rate IS 350-400 each. I'm cutting you a deal because you're my friend. I spent all week collecting these. That's a lot of time."

Dismayed, the crafter says, "I spent all week training hard so I could make your sword, but all my time was worth only 1000 gil to you. You wouldn't be willing to sell those 500 shards for 1000 gil, would you?" To which the seasoned adventurer responds, "OMFG. WHY IS SE PUNISHING ME FOR NOT CRAFTING?! YOU'RE A DIRTY PRICE GOUGING *****, CRAFTER!" and storms out.

The following day the adventurer comes back in with his once shiny blade all dented up and says "I cannot use this. It is blunt and no longer usable. Will you sharpen it? Here is some iron, and I will give you 1000 gil."

The crafter says, "You have now offered me a total profit of 2000 gil for this sword and its repairs in the past two days. I am once again out of crystals, which I had to purchase from you for 150,000 at your 'friend' rate. I can no longer afford to be in business." To which the adventurer responds, "No problem! I have 150 more crystals! I'll sell them all to you for 250 gil each, because I want to help you!"

The crafter slowly shakes his head and says "That's another 37.5k. 2000 gil of profit doesn't buy the 187k of shards it's taking me to make the sword you won't want to pay me for next week, either."

Quite furious at the crafter's refusal of his 'generous' bargain, he says "GOD DAMNED SE. YOU SHOULD WORK FOR THEM. YOU'RE BOTH LITTLE ************** and storms out.... again.

THE END.



Do you know the moral of the story?
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#30 Nov 22 2010 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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That was such a good story :D
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#31Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 6:36 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) you guys fail to get it. I am sorry for you.
#32Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 6:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) edit + addition
#33 Nov 22 2010 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dude wtf are you smoking. Lumber jacks, pugs protecting you while you log, are you on crack bro?

Let's use a realistic scenario.

You are a botanist, you don't need someone to protect you, wtf version of FFXIV are you playing.

In one hour, you log 24 logs and get 200 wind shards.

In one hour, the crafter loses 100K grinding exp to craft your item.

You both spent an hour of your time and durability on your armor/tools, so that nets even.

You lost no money leveling, the crafter lost 100k leveling. In fact you gained money. 200 wind shards = 72K, let's use a cheaper log and say you got Oak logs @ 3k each, that's another 72K. So now you made 142K gil in mats, and the crafter lost 100K in mats. You both got exp. Thus the crafter needs to recoup his money somehow. If you don't provide the mats, you are up 142K, and the crafter is negative 100K, meaning net benefit is 242K to you. Let's say you the item you want crafted takes 2 logs and 20 wind shards, and you provide those mats. We'll you're still up like 230K and the crafter is still down 100K.

So that cost comes in the form of a premium in repairs and crafting whatever item you want. The crafter would love if you gave him all of those logs and shards obviously, and any crafter would then craft for free. If you don't want to give all those mats and shards, then the crafter needs to charge a premium to recoup the 100K he just lost in the last hour.

How old are you? Learn how to actually write something that makes sense, no wonder you think you should only provide mats to a crafter and not tip him anything reasonable, you use no logic whatsoever.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 8:01am by Strifexx
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Strife Nii ~ Conjuror 49, Botanist 37, Mining 33, Thaum 32, Culinary 27, Goldsmith 22
#34Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 6:58 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i am a pugilist amd notice one of my weaons needs some repairing. I hope on my DOL and farm my mats Plus doing on and farming as anther job. I npc repair my tool and other weapon and find a crafter to fix my hand to hand as it needs more care then the npc is willing to do. I tell the crafter I'll sell you all these mats i just got + 3K for labor. So you can repair my hand to hand for 4K. The crafter in the end losses money.
#35 Nov 22 2010 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
don't ask for something your not willing to pay yourself


Good advice. If you aren't willing to pay the time it took to get there, you shouldn't be asking for the service.


On a side note, I'm not asking every single person who needs a hempen cowl repaired to give me 150k.
I'm just saying it has to be worth our time to do it. It's time spent not doing what we want, or anything productive for us. 1000 gil isn't even enough to buy the shards for a single synth.

I'm leveling weaver on cotton cloth right now.
That's nine earth shards. (approx 2250gil)
And that isn't even including the time it takes to find someone selling earth shards, let alone for 250g each.
I promise, that if you offered a measly 5 earth shards to a weaver (or 5 wind to a tanner or carp), I promise you'd
see more response than from 1250-2000 gil.

I mean, I can go kill a damned star marmot right outside of town as some R1 DoW faster and for a better reward than that. I'd get 6 earth shards doing that!
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#36 Nov 22 2010 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
i am a pugilist amd notice one of my weaons needs some repairing. I hope on my DOL and farm my mats Plus doing on and farming as anther job. I npc repair my tool and other weapon and find a crafter to fix my hand to hand as it needs more care then the npc is willing to do. I tell the crafter I'll sell you all these mats i just got + 3K for labor. So you can repair my hand to hand for 4K. The crafter in the end losses money.

Pretty much if you guys want to charge for repairs, start expecting to buy the mats off ppl + labor fee. And actually loose money. :)


You mean the mats people already overcharge for anyway? Sure, you can start charging more for 'em and expect free repairs...good luck with that idea. I thought you said earlier that people should stop being greedy...guess that only works one way huh?
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#37Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 7:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i was making jobs up and I am a female. And I'm just 1/2 asleep. Point of the matter is craftering asking for a fee when mats are freely given is unreasonable no matter how you spin it.
#38 Nov 22 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Irishclass777 wrote:
i am a pugilist amd notice one of my weaons needs some repairing. I hope on my DOL and farm my mats Plus doing on and farming as anther job. I npc repair my tool and other weapon and find a crafter to fix my hand to hand as it needs more care then the npc is willing to do. I tell the crafter I'll sell you all these mats i just got + 3K for labor. So you can repair my hand to hand for 4K. The crafter in the end losses money.

Pretty much if you guys want to charge for repairs, start expecting to buy the mats off ppl + labor fee. And actually loose money. :)


Again you make no sense.

Let's use a normal scenario.

You're Spiked Knuckles are broken. They take 1 iron nugget. I buy an iron nugget from the wards for 1k or make a stack of 12 myself. I repair your sh*t for 5k. I make 4k profit, you save 20K gil, you don't waste time being a jackass, end of story.

Oh you're @#%^ing leather gloves need repairs? I buy a leather spetch from the vendor for 1200. I repair your sh*t for 5K, you go spend 30 seconds to kill 3 mobs to get 5k in shards while you're running to god knows where, end of story.

I'm not sure what kind of sh*t you're repairing, but 95% of the repairs in this game don't require extensive farming.

Oh and pretty much nothing. Guess what, I charge for repairs everyday like every other crafter, no one loses money. I gain money because I don't deal the rare idiot such as yourself and most people actually offer 5-10K for repairs because they realize that it takes time and money to level a craft which is recouped through repairs and the sale of goods.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 8:14am by Strifexx
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#39 Nov 22 2010 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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You already make us buy your items!

where do we get our cotton bolls?
where do we get our lighting crystals?
where do we get our moko grass?
where do we get our earth shards?

We already pay through the nose to level, now we have to pay more to repair your stuff so we can pay more?
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#40 Nov 22 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
i was making jobs up and I am a female. And I'm just 1/2 asleep. Point of the matter is craftering asking for a fee when mats are freely given is unreasonable no matter how you spin it.
And you guys fail to understand that. If you want to chage a fee tto repair with reson given is labor based on the fact you have to lvl up to give us service. So expect us Dow/Dom to charge you the mats which could be freely given. plus got of time it took us to level to get those mats to provide you with a chance to level. Or are the Dom/Dow now unreasonable for making you buy our items?


People already do that! People are selling things that are completely useless to them(maple sap comes to mind) for 2-5k a pop because they found out it was a good alchemy skillup. The only thing you have to pay for to go fight mobs is repairs and new gear from time to time. Meanwhile you can sell the mats & shards drops for outrageous prices. You can even expect pay a laughable amount of maybe 5k to repair old gear so you can turn around and sell it to another DoW/DoM! The richest people in my LS aren't the crafters, but the fighters who simply sell mats & shards.

I don't know about others, but I do repairs for really cheap and even free sometimes. However, the problem with you is you're demanding it to be free. You just don't do that. You may find that if you gave me the mats I would do it for free, but don't expect it.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 8:14am by TwistedOwl
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#41Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 7:14 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) twisted just prove you guys are not taking the time to read what I am saying. And served a good point. What happens with the reverse. lets say crafter didn't charge money for repairs. but had to buy the mats from the person they are doing the repairs for. Not very fair is it?
#42 Nov 22 2010 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Your compensation is NOT paying 40k to the NPC.

paying even as much as 1/4th of that is a **** of a bargain, especially when you get 25% more durability out of it!
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#43 Nov 22 2010 at 7:18 AM Rating: Good
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Irishclass777 wrote:
twisted just prove you guys are not taking the time to read what I am saying. And served a good point. What happens with the reverse. lets say crafter didn't charge money for repairs. but had to buy the mats from the person they are doing the repairs for. Not very fair is it?
the Person could say the same thing. It took my alot of time and effort of leveling to be able to getr these. I deserve compensation. so why should a person willing to freely give you mats, that they can easily charge for only to be chaged a service fee?
so again why do something you are unwilling to do yourself.


Once again you show your utter lack of intelligence.

Guess what drops while you are farming whatever magical "mats" for repairs, shards! Guess what, shards sell for 200-350g each, with crystals which drop a decent amount of time for 2k+.

Your @#%^ing compensation is the 20K you just made in shards while farming your mats which you sell to crafters. Crafters don't magically get shard drops while crafting.

That 20k they just spent on shards? They get it back in the form of repairs and premiums on goods sold.

P.S. You probably waste 1-2% durability on whatever magical scenario you made up in your head for repair mats that you need to farm mobs for. So now you have 74% left until you hit heavy gear damage to go do whatever the **** you want.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 8:20am by Strifexx
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#44Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 7:21 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) here is the thing, I'm goving you mats for free, why do you got the right to charge me. If you do, expect to have to buy my items. is that do hard to understand? And not even talking about you guys having to buy mats to level up. But that should fall under same thing. I give you the mats to craft items i need. There is no reason to charge me extra.
#45 Nov 22 2010 at 7:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
here is the thing, I'm goving you mats for free, why do you got the right to charge me. If you do, expect to have to buy my items. is that do hard to understand? And not even talking about you guys having to buy mats to level up. But that should fall under same thing. I give you the mats to craft items i need. There is no reason to charge me extra.
twist it how you guys like it. But you guys would hate the reverse so why do it?


Well you obviously read nothing in this thread and know nothing about the time value of money since we're back to square one.

No use arguing with a moron anymore when I'm obviously not gonna deal with anyone this stupid ingame anyways.
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#46Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 7:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) sorry but the one who personally attacks someone else is the stupid one.
#47 Nov 22 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Strifexx wrote:
Irishclass777 wrote:
here is the thing, I'm goving you mats for free, why do you got the right to charge me. If you do, expect to have to buy my items. is that do hard to understand? And not even talking about you guys having to buy mats to level up. But that should fall under same thing. I give you the mats to craft items i need. There is no reason to charge me extra.
twist it how you guys like it. But you guys would hate the reverse so why do it?


Well you obviously read nothing in this thread and know nothing about the time value of money since we're back to square one.

No use arguing with a moron anymore when I'm obviously not gonna deal with anyone this stupid ingame anyways.


Exactly this. You're the one failing to read anything Irish. For one last time, I said I give cheap & free repairs sometimes. If someone brings me the repair mats I'll often say "no charge". You demanding it because it's my job to keep your sh*t repaired so you can go level up more isn't gonna fly, sorry. For one who made a thread about building a good in-game community, you seem to see things very one-sided.

Quote:
by mats i ment shards as well. in ffxi terms mats - ALL items needed. Which you get ALL foir free.
In that scenario, I probably wouldn't charge, yes. I'm talking about the rest of the time, that's when I charge...

Quote:
I dispise being taken advantage of. You guys are acting like con man.

I don't like being taken advantage of either. The people who want free or cheap repairs while selling me maple sap for 5k a pop and shards at 3-500g a pop are doing exactly that...

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 8:39am by TwistedOwl
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#48 Nov 22 2010 at 7:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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685 posts
Lemme put my 2 cents in:

Yes, DoW/DoM should carry more respect for DoL/DoH people, but we shouldn't be respected more. We're all playing the same game, but we're all playing the way we want to play. They're going to need us for gear, we're going to need them for materials. Yes, they should realize though that throwing a bit extra gil at us for our work is a good thing, seeing as a true crafter (I mean this only in that crafting is all that person does) only earns gil from leves and from selling items above the material cost (unless all materials were gathered by said crafter). I've heard so many DoW/DoM say that gil is obsolete because it pretty much rains on them. I remember there being a thread about how many millions of gil do you have. I haven't even hit half a million.

Now that being said, I want to address one thing mentioned in a response: high-end gear. SE has made it seem fairly clear to this point that they are not going to put a lot of droppable gear in NMs and raids. And what they do put in won't be nearly as good as crafted gear. If this were to happen, then very few people would buy gear from crafters. We'd be the second choice. If SE put in very nice gear drops, then they negate the purpose of half the jobs they have put in from the start. ****, crafting jobs are a stated reason for not putting in an AH right away, they don't want the job to be "log in, easily buy things, craft, put up on AH and log out/switch to DoW/DoM". So get it out of your minds that crafting jobs are going to be put by the wayside, they're just as dear to the development team as DoW/DoM jobs. And make nice with the crafters, you'll need a few later in game for your gear.
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#49Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 7:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) no you guys seem to fail to understand. You guys are too close minded.
#50 Nov 22 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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685 posts
Are you providing these free mats to the same crafters you're trying to get repairs from? Crafters aren't going to tell each other about the great Irish (although at this point you might have a blackmark against you, negatives travel faster). Now, if you're providing the material for the repair, and they want to charge you a fee and you don't want to pay a fee for the repair, don't want to spend even more for the NPC repair, then find another crafter. Approach them very politely. You might get a fee-less repair from them.

Your analogy to SP partying, though, is specious. That analogy applies to the grinding crafters do to get ranks, not the repairs or requested synths. And where grinding for DoM/DoW typically earns you money or mats, it costs us. It's only when we craft to sell or take requests is there the possibility for gaining money.
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#51Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 22 2010 at 7:58 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ya mats should never be over priced that i hate more. I say this because its part of the issue also. crafters are not the only ppl buying mats. People who need item repairs are also buying these over priced mats. So we are saving you some money.
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