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Crafters, and YOUFollow

#252 Nov 23 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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HonestlyPlease wrote:
knarcotic wrote:
Oh god, what will it take? You are paying for the convenience, not
the time it takes. If this isn't fair by your standards, there are
more costly options available. So this convenience has no value?


The convenience has a value, but I think both parties are place to much value on it. In a heavy player driver economy we should be willing to take a lose in profits when it comes to helping our fellow comrades in arms when it comes to repairs and shards, both should be lower in price, it will hurt the bank, but in the long run both parties would benefit greatly.

Player driver economy seemed like a cool idea, but I think players in general are too greedy to handle it. I am a full time crafter, and I repair for tips if they provide the mats or I charge a fee that is based off mat cost + 2,000g. I think this is fair.

Fair is fair, as crafters we should be easier on repair cost, but shard prices should be lowered. Cannot have it both ways.

how is that a player driven economy? a player driven economy is one where value is placed on items and repairs by what players are willing to pay for something...not on how much it helps you out.

go take an econ 101 class.
#253 Nov 23 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Now it could be the Vicodin has me waxing philosophical but assuming Irish isn't trolling (which I am not completely certain of,) she seems to have an extremely idealistic point of view. Almost like she believes everyone in the game is supposed to be friends and work together as a single group or something. Kind of reminds me of the Smurfs and/or perhaps Communism. Hopefully, more the Smurfs. DoH craft and repair stuff charging only the cost of mats while I guess DoW/DoM and DoL are out collecting the raw materials to give to the DoH to craft/repair items. Everyone lives in one nice big happy world. Really nice fuzzy warm idea but not realistic. Nice and fuzzy but gummy bears had a better song then the smurfs.
#254 Nov 23 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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This is the thread that doesn't end...
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#255 Nov 23 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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MrTalos wrote:
Now it could be the Vicodin has me waxing philosophical but assuming Irish isn't trolling (which I am not completely certain of,) she seems to have an extremely idealistic point of view. Almost like she believes everyone in the game is supposed to be friends and work together as a single group or something. Kind of reminds me of the Smurfs and/or perhaps Communism. Hopefully, more the Smurfs. DoH craft and repair stuff charging only the cost of mats while I guess DoW/DoM and DoL are out collecting the raw materials to give to the DoH to craft/repair items. Everyone lives in one nice big happy world. Really nice fuzzy warm idea but not realistic. Nice and fuzzy but gummy bears had a better song then the smurfs.


The attitude feels very "asperger's" to me
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#256 Nov 23 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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My perfect scenario is sitting in the middle of, well, everywhere, with a cold one on the table and my tools laid out while I take a break. Every now and again my two buddies trot up with monstrous and unknown creatures slung dead over their shoulders; back to share their tales, another round of cold brew, and a heaping pile of crystals on the table for me after they leave. I take their measurements, tell Boyo #1 to stop eating so much because he's outgrowing his armor faster than I can make new, and good times are had by all. The only time that gil exchanges hands is when the beer runs dry.

If somebody and their best friend on Wutai wants to marry me, I'm game! I'll even pick up an axe every so often and help with denuding the countryside of monsters. Tiny ones, anyways.
#257Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 23 2010 at 3:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) my question, what does the repair fee go to?
#258 Nov 23 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
my question, what does the repair fee go to?
And the reason saying real life situation are flawed is ffxiv is not real life. You are not spending hours doing physical work to repair that item. You just press buttons on a video game. The reasoning for it based from the game do seem greedy. Like " i charge a fee because i don't get that much or any sp" "i charge a fee because i don't make as much money as other players"
My question is, when ppl see this fee, what happens when other players do the same? Like with current situation where healers don't get as much sp, whats stoping them from charging to heal? Whats stoping crafters charging a fee for fir making crafts even if mats are present?

Plus in time i do just see players take advantage of said fee. In ffxi whms charged a fee to travel, it was 500g per teleport. then it went up to around 1,000g, then it went up again for 3,000+. Now a days its lucky you can get a teleport for 5,000. I even went up to 10,000 just to get a teleport. And unlike ffxiv, its not as easy to get gil.


in 14, it IS easy gil to get, and thats the thing

i had 4 pieces of gear repaired today, i paid 5k per piece.
im sure the mats didnt even cost more then 1k each, but it is called common courtesy

now keep in mind, i set the price i was paying, i offered 5k each, i asked, i recieved

people doing repairs here do not demand a certain ammount, they just expect what is fair
and if its not fair, they dont do it, period. its that simple


also, it DOES take time to craft and do other things, it DOES take time to repair. as youve stated you have yet to play the game, so right there your showing mass ignorance as to the games mechanics
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#259 Nov 23 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
My question is, when ppl see this fee, what happens when other players do the same? Like with current situation where healers don't get as much sp, whats stoping them from charging to heal? Whats stoping crafters charging a fee for fir making crafts even if mats are present?

Plus in time i do just see players take advantage of said fee. In ffxi whms charged a fee to travel, it was 500g per teleport. then it went up to around 1,000g, then it went up again for 3,000+. Now a days its lucky you can get a teleport for 5,000. I even went up to 10,000 just to get a teleport. And unlike ffxiv, its not as easy to get gil.


See, in a party, people are a team. They all rely on each other for a length of time, not just one interaction. If healers started charging party members for doing what they are supposed to do, and what they in fact joined the party to do by virtue of their job, they will be kicked. Crafters don't have to fix your gear if you walk up to them with the mats (or craft something for you if you've provided the mats). If it were something that would give them a fair bit of SP, you might find a fair number of crafters willing to make something for you if you provide the mats--but most likely not strangers.

Now whether you put in days worth of playing time to level your crafting jobs to an appropriate level to repair all your rank 30 gear, or you pay a nominal fee for someone to take the time and repair the item for you, that is entirely your choice. It seems obvious to the rest of us that 5-10k for a great service is well spent. If people were charging a lot more than that, like 50k for a rank 20 piece of gear when you've provided the repair mat(s), then naturally we would consider that gouging.

Who cares if FFXIV is not real life? People still spend real time to provide you a service--unless you think that time spent in a virtual world is virtual time? The time it takes the crafter to fix your gear is about equal to the time it takes you to go out and kill some podunk marmot and get 2 fire crystals that are worth more than the repair fee you just paid. Seems like a pretty fair trade-off of time to me.
#260 Nov 23 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Yabusame wrote:
By the way, I'm one of the "Battlers" in Leeloo, Ayase, and Akua's LS that has a load of cash. Well, I HAD a load of cash. I was making 1-2 million gil a week just killing marmots (very very slowly) while recording every single attack damage amount, miss, evade, SP gain, crit, and exp gain BY HAND (that's really slow) and selling shards/crystals, many of those at a discounted rate to my trusty LS mates (especially Ayase...cheap *******). Now that I've been leveling DoH/DoL more, I went from having 4.5 million gil on hand to 1.2 million...in 2 weeks. That's 235,714 gil per day, which won't even buy me 80 crystals a day @3k per.

Point is, if Leeloo, Ayase, or Akua ever have any gil (read: more than 500k)...it's because they are leveling a DoW/DoM to get some of those crystals/shards, and then they spend all they have buying more mats. Everyone who just plays DoW/DoM classes needs to understand this very clearly. They are essentially forced to level YOUR CLASSES in order to level theirs, or else it would literally take 2 years of grinding levequests to get ONE CLASS to 50, and then you wouldn't have that shiny sword to get yourself to r50 Gladiator or whatever. Most of you who are DoW/DoM only would quit instantly if you found out for every hour of leveling Pugilist you were required to level Goldsmith for 2 hours a day, then spend 1 more hour looking for a new camp to fight in each day on top of that (which is the equivalent of looking for mats in the Market Wards).

DoW/DoM have the option of just killing, NPCing the drops, and accumulating wealth over time without ever talking to another player, ever doing 1 transaction (buying or selling), and buying all their weapons/gear from NPCs if they so choose. Players who are only crafters are, and have always been, at the mercy of the battle classes to supply them with gil for materials (or the materials themselves) through purchase of goods and now repairs.

TLDR - Stop ********* your sh*t is much easier, and you will always have more gil than crafters.


Not to contradict Ronin cause we're cool and all, but I have quite a bit of gil. I got there because I farm 90% of the mats and all of the shards and crystals I use. That's just the way I want to play, self reliant as much as possible. Now, someone mentioned earlier that gil has less value to a crafter the higher they go, and that is the truth. Mats, crystals and shards become much more valuable. I handle almost all of my transactions through barter and trade. That being said why should I work for free? By some of the arguments I've been seeing I should be paying my boss for my job since he provides the materials and work space. Labor has value, has since the dawn of man where if you didn't work you didn't eat. Thinking otherwise is just naive.

Edit: reworded value of gil sentance

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 2:42pm by SkinwalkerAsura
#261Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 23 2010 at 5:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) and crafter work with everyone else a team.
#262 Nov 23 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just dropping by this thread to see if the war is still going on =p
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#263 Nov 23 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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Irishclass777 wrote:
Dom/Dow/Dol get more because they are at higher risk. DoH get less because they are not at much risk.


No, just no.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 6:52pm by tylerbee
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#264 Nov 23 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Irishclass777 wrote:
and crafter work with everyone else a team.
if crafter didn't repair equipment, how would they get their mats?
everyone has an equal part of the pie that is ffxiv.

Dom/Dow/DoL gather mats and shards.
DoH/Dom/Dow buy mats from Everyone else.
Doh uses all mats + shard to make stuff for everyone else.
This is how money is being moved around.

just becausde DoH don't get as much SP for repairs, or get as much gil as other classes. I don't see that call for a charge. That is pretty much saying i am a crafter i should get paid to spend my time crafting. But in reality you already are getting paid to craft. You get Paird when you make items and sell them to other players. If you are not getting the gil you think we owe you for doing this, then either charge more for the items, or farm mats yourself instead of buying anything from others


I am the hole in your theory. I gather/farm almost every mat I need and I farm/gather every shard I use. All the gear I have I either made myself or traded for with items I made myself. I repair all my own gear. So, I ask again: Why should I work for free? You are providing me with nothing. I do not charge outrageous amounts and do a lot of repairs for free because I like to do so. Here is something you are not getting: THERE IS ALWAYS A CHOICE. No one is forcing you to get your gear repaired by the NPC. No one is forcing you to pay what you feel is too much for a repair. YOU set the price you feel you want to pay for a repair. If someone decides to fix it for that price that is THEIR choice. If your gear doesn't get fixed you have ANOTHER choice, pay more or pay the NPC. Stop talking like every crafter in the game is out to get you.

Quote:
What you guys are doing is disliking competitive pay checks. Dom/Dow/Dol get more because they are at higher risk. DoH get less because they are not at much risk


One of your points is that crafters think they are better than sword swingers, that we are all equal...in this statement you just put them above crafters. You just contradicted yourself.
#265 Nov 23 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Irishclass777 wrote:
and crafter work with everyone else a team.
if crafter didn't repair equipment, how would they get their mats?


I'd farm them. Like I already do. See, I don't need people who focus exclusively on combat classes. I provide everything I need on my own and occasionally I venture into the pits of the retainer wards and stock up on shards. If I couldn't get shards/crystals from the retainer wards, I'd just go farm them.

Quote:
everyone has an equal part of the pie that is ffxiv.


Sure they do. And my piece is my piece and your piece is your piece and what I do with my piece is none of your business.

Quote:
just becausde DoH don't get as much SP for repairs, or get as much gil as other classes. I don't see that call for a charge. That is pretty much saying i am a crafter i should get paid to spend my time crafting. But in reality you already are getting paid to craft. You get Paird when you make items and sell them to other players. If you are not getting the gil you think we owe you for doing this, then either charge more for the items, or farm mats yourself instead of buying anything from others.


OR...

...charge an amount for repairs that makes me feel it's worth my time.

That's an option, too.

Quote:
What you guys are doing is disliking competitive pay checks. Dom/Dow/Dol get more because they are at higher risk. DoH get less because they are not at much risk.


What you're going to want to do is stop talking like you actually know what goes on in the game because you clearly don't. You're trying so hard to justify your argument but every time you try and make a comment based on an assumption, your assumption is wrong. And your wrong assumptions undermine your arguments. You have no credibility. You have no valid argument beyond your opinion that crafters "should" do repairs for free.

What crafters "should" do is what they're already doing: charge what (if anything) they fell is appropriate and if you don't want to pay, you go elsewhere for your repairs.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 3:59pm by Aurelius
#266 Nov 23 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
Irishclass777 wrote:
and crafter work with everyone else a team.

When I find 4 other people to go fight crabs we are a team. By being in the party together it is understood we will each do our job and someone doesn't they would be kicked. When you walk up to a crafter and ask them to repair your sword you are not in a team with them, you are asking for a service. Why should they drop whatever they are doing and take the time to fix your stuff for nothing?

Irishclass777 wrote:

if crafter didn't repair equipment, how would they get their mats?
everyone has an equal part of the pie that is ffxiv.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I would assume they would get their mats the same way anyone gets anything in this game, they would either buy them with the gil they earn from selling their crafted items or go out and farm the mats themselves.

Irishclass777 wrote:

Dom/Dow/DoL gather mats and shards.
DoH/Dom/Dow buy mats from Everyone else.
Doh uses all mats + shard to make stuff for everyone else.
This is how money is being moved around.

Where does doing repairs fit into your theory on how money is moving around?

I honestly want to understand where you are coming from.

Lets pretend you are a DoW in Ul'dah and your Bone Ring needs fixing.
To fix a a Bone Ring the mats are Bone Chip x 1. You go buy the Bone Chip from the NPC Pimelle in Ul'dah for 432 Gil. You head to the Goldsmith Guild in Ul'dah since there should be someone there who can do the repair.

I'm sitting there crafting and chatting with my LS and you request repairs be done for your ring and that you are providing the Bone Chip.

You trade me the Bone Chip x 1 and I repair your Bone Ring to 100%.

You get a repaired Bone Ring, what do I get? You traded 1 Bone Chip which was used up fixing your ring.

Where is the benefit to the crafter? They get a tiny amount of sp perhaps, but far less then they would have gotten if they had not stopped crafting items their level to fix your ring.

I'm not saying I'm going to charge 50K Gil but you could toss me some wind shards or 2K or something.


Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 8:19pm by melaniewing
#267 Nov 23 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
and crafter work with everyone else a team.
if crafter didn't repair equipment, how would they get their mats?
everyone has an equal part of the pie that is ffxiv.

Dom/Dow/DoL gather mats and shards.
DoH/Dom/Dow buy mats from Everyone else.
Doh uses all mats + shard to make stuff for everyone else.
This is how money is being moved around.

just becausde DoH don't get as much SP for repairs, or get as much gil as other classes. I don't see that call for a charge. That is pretty much saying i am a crafter i should get paid to spend my time crafting. But in reality you already are getting paid to craft. You get Paird when you make items and sell them to other players. If you are not getting the gil you think we owe you for doing this, then either charge more for the items, or farm mats yourself instead of buying anything from others.

What you guys are doing is disliking competitive pay checks. Dom/Dow/Dol get more because they are at higher risk. DoH get less because they are not at much risk.


Look, I'm not even a crafter. We're giving you every possible reason why it is advantageous to pay for a service that crafters are not required to provide at all. It's everyone's perfect right to throw away their jewelry when it reaches 1 durability, or pay through the nose for a repair to just 75%, but if the cost of repair is a mere 5k+repair mat, who gives a flip? It's petty cash by the time you are rank 20. 5k is just about worthless in XIV--like 100 gil in XI.

Sure, crafters could try to charge more, but people will be unlikely to buy from them then. If people didn't sell crafters shards and crystals at such exorbitant prices, they would be able to profit more readily. Crafters sell their gear at reasonable prices in order to move their stock, since (for one thing) storage is at a premium. Therefore, repairs help them recoup some of the gil they lost by being forced to move their wares.

If you played the game...you would understand. We're all starting to sound like broken records here eh?
#268 Nov 23 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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While I have nuked posts that are flaming Irishclass777, I would also like to say that I would like Irishclass777 to STOP posting in this thread any longer. Any further posts will be regarded as flame bait. Opinions have been stated, move on.

I'd like to remind all of you that if you see yourself being rated into oblivion and insults begin to appear, it might be time to take a step back and consider what you are saying.
#269 Nov 23 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Not to contradict Ronin cause we're cool and all, but I have quite a bit of gil.


Not me Akua, I'm brokeSmiley: grin


Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 7:11pm by TwistedOwl
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#270 Nov 23 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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ThinkDeeply wrote:
Just dropping by this thread to see if the war is still going on =p


grab some popcorn, its still as entertaining as ever
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#271 Nov 23 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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:)i agree completely
#272 Nov 23 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe I'm just wasting my time, but I'll give 1 more attempt to talk some sense into Irish.

Irish, we know you did not play FFXIV, so I'll put things in FFXI terms to make it easier for you.

The SP we get from repairing equipment is measly. In FFXI terms, it would be like getting 2-3 xp for killing a mob, something no one gives a **** about.

Let me draw a scenario to you.

Now remember Guardian Crawler? Some crawler you have to trade a Rolanberry to pop?
One day, some random guy whom you don't know comes up to you saying 'Hey, I need you to kill Guardian crawler for me. I keep all the drops.' Being a good Samaritan that you are, you agreed. After the crawler is killed, the guy gets his drop, he left, leaving you with nothing but 2 xp.

The next day another random guy ask for the same thing.

On the 3rd day, you get frustrated, thinking 'Why am I wasting my time doing the killing for all these people when the other guy gets all the loot?' So when the 3rd guy comes along, you told him you want 500 gil for killing the crawler. Hey, 500 gil isn't much in FFXI, right? He says: 'What? You should be glad that I'm not asking you to pay me for providing the Rolanberry to pop the crawler!'

Get the picture?
#273 Nov 23 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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Flame on!
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#274 Nov 23 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
Thornpaw wrote:
If you take your computer into say Best Buy to get repaired and they want to charge you $300 for the part and $80 for the repair work. You say you want think about it and walk around the store and see the part for $150 on the shelf. You buy the part and take it to the repair guy and hand it over... guess what they are still going to charge you the $80 for the repair. And the argument that you spent the time buying the part and carrying to him was so much 'work' that the repair should be free... well, try it. It will give the repair guy a good story to tell his buddy as they laugh their bums off.


Don't give people ideas...you make a joke, but I work at Best Buy and people seriously try this kind of crap at least 2-3 times a week.
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#275Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 23 2010 at 10:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i'm now just try to understand where this fee is coming from, and what it is for.
#276 Nov 23 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Irishclass777 wrote:
as for the crafters, are you not required to make and sell us gear?


**** no. I'm not required to do sh*t for you, and neither is anyone else.

The day you log on, create a character on Selbina, farm a few thousand shards and crystals, and give them to me AT NO COST...that is the day I would give you free repairs or make you gear.

Irishclass777 wrote:
I do think crafters should do the fee based on supplies used. Charge a certain fee w/o mats as you are using your time and supplies you now need to buy/ farm again. But should charge less if someone gives you the supplies.


I'm glad you came up with this noble idea...I wonder where the idea came to you from...if I could just place my finger on it...

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 11:09pm by Yabusame
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#277 Nov 23 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Irish, I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but you bring up an interesting point. You say what stops crafters from raising prices and such. Nothing does, but basic (yes again) supply and demand will normally normalize costs to that which people are both willing to pay and willing to sell their services for. I thin kit may seem greedy for people to charge, but I think it depends. Hopefully, crafters will be fair and not charge too much. If I provide the material for repair, I plan to tip/pay for a repair, but I won't do so to someone who demands a lot of gil.

In the end, we can hope basic laws of economics sets these prices to reasonable amounts that EVERYONE can agree to and not just super rich/super greedy people.

EDIT: and sorry if this whole thread got out of hand. I'm trying to explain it nicely and not attacking you. We are all entitled to our opinions. Most people may disagree, but what can ya do, hehe? I'll just do my part to try and explain my view (basically what I've learned from commerce in university...mind you, I only took a few econ courses). If you don't agree with what I've that, that's cool.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 11:31pm by XienithSilvercloud
#278 Nov 23 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Irishclass777 wrote:


I do think crafters should do the fee based on supplies used. Charge a certain fee w/o mats as you are using your time and supplies you now need to buy/ farm again. But should charge less if someone gives you the supplies.
the only thing about this though, Only state these terms if you are using repairs as a buisness, as if you shout for that you are doing repairs.


I'm glad that you start to see what others are trying to convey. No crafter is obligated to repair for you for free even using your mats. We're not saying crafters should charge the same whether you provide the mats or not. Of course if you bring along the mats they should only charge you a small service charge.
Such service charge, as others have pointed out, is determined by the market as a whole. You can find someone to repair for you for say 3k today. One year later maybe the norm would be 30k, since everyone would have 100 millions sitting around.

I feel sorry you had a bad experience with a jerk who refused to give you back your items if you dont pay him. I also had a very similar experience in another MMO. But it is the risk you are going to take whenever you give your items to someone who you know nothing about. Even if he said he would craft/repair something for you beforehand, he could always walk away after you trade him your items. We see jerks like this all the time in MMOs.

On a side note, IMHO we can actually use RL examples on MMOs. After all we're playing with real people here. MMO community and economy are formed by real people. Player characters behave exactly like real people. There are nice helpful people and jerks like the one you met.
And some people are actually getting paid for playing MMOs. It's their real life job.
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#279Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 23 2010 at 11:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I got a good suggestion to crafters.
#280 Nov 23 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
I got a good suggestion to crafters.
start repair buinesses. Pick certains times on certain days where you shout that you are doing repairs. Say like with mats, its 1K. with out mats it 5K. (random numbers charhe what you like)
that way doing those times what you charge is known and understood. And it would be up to the ppl to get repairs by who. (this idea was from ffxi in what teleport whm did. ) that makes repair a buiness.
Now here is the thing though, and something i do find rude (sorry if this offends ppl ) is you walk by (not doing your repair buiness) and see a person needing repairs and demanding money from them, or saying the fee the person feels is fair is an insult to crafters. At this point this isn't a buiness transaction but you wanting/ thinking of helping them.


When/if you get into the game and see how much of a pain in the *** it is to navigate the repair UI, you'll see why very few people have considering setting up a "repair business". It's no fun. And considering SE deemed in their infinite wisdom that it would be good if there was a chance that you could fail the repair attempt and lose your mats, even repairing out of bazaars is a hit-or-miss affair that requires you to risk your own mats.

SE is changing the UI a bit so that a specific repair icon will appear beside the name of a person seeking repairs. Without that, unless they're shouting themselves, you have absolutely no way of knowing if they need repairs. And if they're shouting for repairs and not telling me how much they're offering, I usually ignore their shouts. If they're shouting repairs and offering a trivial amount for the job, I usually ignore them. If they're shouting for repairs and offering a reasonable sum, I may or may not help them depending on what I'm doing at the time.

Quote:
Like at my job i help out a customer i am not allowed to demand a tip.


When we use RL examples, you say they're irrelevant.
#281Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 23 2010 at 11:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) @ yabu
#282 Nov 23 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Default
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Irishclass777 wrote:
@ yabu
I think you are misunderstanding what that means
crafters supply 80% of gear used by players. the only way you level up your class is to make stuff and sell them to other players.
making and selling gear is not repairing gear.
And my idea wasn't from anyone here it is based from taxi service whm did.
@ everyone else
to make it more simple to get my suggestion here it goes
want a set fee/tip on repairs do a repair buiness. pick days to do it.
But in retrospect (sp?) do not walk up to a person, see they need repairs and demand a certain amount of money. Or say the money they are offering is not fair.

Since instead of others approching you for buisness, you are approching them to help them out.


Irish your ignorance when it comes to this game shows more and more every time you post

WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR THEM TO PAY MORE THEN WHAT THEY ARE OFFERING

when we see they arent paying enough in their bazaar, we just flat out ignore them and move on
we dont say "hey ill do it for 5k MORE"

the ones who have the issues are the ones who are offering us 1 gil for a repair, and not getting it
or paying 1-2k for mats that cost well over that and so on.


the issue isnt with the people repairing asking for too much, its with the battlers not wanting to pay at all, or not willing to pay at least what the mats are even worth half the time.
and they are the ones throwing fits over it
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#283Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 23 2010 at 11:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) @Aur
#284Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 23 2010 at 11:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) @ ved
#285 Nov 24 2010 at 12:02 AM Rating: Default
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Irishclass777 wrote:
@ ved
not trying to be rude, but i hope you see how rude you are being.
I was just offering a suggestion. But also understand some stuff also.
SE made crafter repairs more for a reason. It was to build community with the different sets of classes. While adding some realism.
SE gave crafters the ability to make/repair items is giving the crafting class a purpose.
Guys truth be told, the more people you refuse to help the more players may quit the game. As you guys stated ( A LOT) npc repairs are basically useless and pricey. If someone can't get their gear repaired they may have to buy all new gear and become uneasy playing the game. Or complain to SE on why crafters are able to repair but are refusing to. to let the npc do full repair instead of 75%.
I think thats why ppl hate the crafters for feel they are vain. Don't take playing to see that. It right their in black and white. If you do a buiness ppl will understand what a fair price is.


Did you ever read what I wrote?
NO you obviously didnt

this is the problem Irish and why people here are frustrated with you, you ARE NOT paying attention, its like you are off in your own world.

The problem IS NOT the crafters, it is not that we are asking them for X gil to repair stuff.
The problem is the flat out refusal of many battlers to pay for even the mat cost of the repairs. They put repairs up for 1 gil in their bazaar,m or even 1k gil(most mats cost more then 1k by the time youll care enough to get repairs often)

Is it the crafters fault at this point? No
Are the crafters being rude and sending them messages demanding more? No
Are the battlers looking for repairs throwing fits? YES


how is what you are talking about any kind of solution to this, we arent scaring them off from playing the game, they just dont want to even pay us for services rendered or for our mats at all.

The issue does not lie in the cost of repairs, it lies in the fact that alot of people who are claiming no one will repair fall into 2 catagories

1) they refuse to pay enough to cover even the materials
2) they are looking for repairs on the highest level gear and no one is at the level to repair it yet that is on

in the case of #1, its their fault for being cheap, they can learn to raise the offers to make it worth doing
in the case of #2, its again their own fault for buying gear no one can repair, especialy since most of it is way above their level to begin with so they shouldnt even be using it
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#286 Nov 24 2010 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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I don't want to approach the game like it's a job, like it's a business. I'm not going to get online at certain times in order to shout for repairs. I want to play this game to have fun! Taking it like a job is why I stopped FFXI. Felt like I absolutely had to get on at a certain time and play for so long. I'm going to log into XIV, do my leves, synth up whatever I may have on hand, or farm, or do some repairs for those I am able to.
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#287 Nov 24 2010 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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Irishclass777 wrote:
@Aur
It was just a suggestion. and a good suggestion for crafters to get money.
Have you played ffxi? Crafting on there is a pain to do also. even if you max out your craft you still have a chance at failing synths. I seen a 100 cloth crafter fail at a lvl 1 craft.
i feel it helps everyone in the long run if ppl do repair buisnesses. That way ppl know who is doing repairs and who not to ask. That way we know how much you charge for doing repairs.
Also again not trying to be rude here, don't blame players for the crap ui for repairs... its not their fault they need crafters for repairs since npc repairs are useless and costly.


Yes, I played FFXI, and one of the final disasters that caused me to leave the game was failing a Hakutaku Eye Cluster synth @ 100 alchemy skill. There's nothing fun or rewarding about failing something you have no control over.

And I don't blame players for the crap UI. I blame players for being cheap. I blame them for wanting something for nothing and whining when they don't get it. And when I have to navigate a horrible UI to do for them what they don't want to fairly compensate me for doing, I'd just as soon not do it. So their option is to make it worth my while or go without.

What you're not understanding is just how much 5k gil (as example) really means in XIV. It's not a ton of gil. When you kill a common mob, it has a chance to drop between 0 and 12 shards and up to at least two crystals. Sometimes they drop no shards/crystals at all, but most of the time you're going to see at least 3 shards per kill. Players are selling those shards for 250-500g each on Istory, with crystals selling for 2-5k+. So Bob Conjurer goes and thwacks a dodo and walks away with 10k worth of crystals and shards and all he's willing to offer me to repair his hat is 1k gil? No bloody way.
#288 Nov 24 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Good
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And not to mention items don't really degrade that fast like people trying to scare you. I've only had my Cuirass repaired once from r27-r31, with that's only 50% degradation. That's a long long time having to get repaired.
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#289Irishclass777, Posted: Nov 24 2010 at 12:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) take the suggestion or don't. Don't complain to me for not taking it.
#290 Nov 24 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, I regret my previous post on this thread now. Can this please stop? Irish, if you wish to set an example for repairs, join the game, level DoH and give us an example. Otherwise those that craft will charge as they will and there will be nothing any non-crafter can do if the majority of crafters follow the same idea, even if it isn't popular with a vocal minority of the DoW/DoM. Everyone else, she's not going to accept your arguments.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 12:38am by Gadhelyn
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#291 Nov 24 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
take the suggestion or don't. Don't complain to me for not taking it.
What i suggested is used in many games and it works. It also gets people to understand what a fair price is. No one may know what a fair price is unless someone does a buisness and shout it. Like in ffxi with whm taxi.
That is also how to start a price trend. Since it is the skill of the crafter. it is the the crafter you sets the price and put it out there.
You crafters are the only ones who can fully repair gear. You are a key tool in the community and econamy.
Also what the deal Ved, I thought crafters didn't charge for the supplies just time since with mats I'm still charged? sorry i'm now confused XD
do you crafter charge fees for supplies or time?
trust me i'm agreeing you on the 1g and 1K if its your mats, I wouldn't refuse, but i would tell them after typically its x gil fee is fair since mats are x gil.
but also in buiness sence.. service = fee. if the customer is coming to you.
helping = tip if you are approching the person.


your suggestion does nothing for the game thats the issue
you are telling people to do something that they are already doing, and thats asking for fair prices to do repairs.


as far as what i am talking about as far as whats charged, right now, people rarely supply their own mats at all. when they do, its usualy because the material is rarer so the crafters dont always have them on hand.

as far as it being a service where people come to me....yeah thats not how it works in this game and there is no crafter out there who is gonna bother going out of their way to start a repair business

right now repairs happen as follows

1) Someone afks with the item in their bazaar to be repaired
2) someone shouts they need repairs, and they either trade back and forth or put it in their bazaar


no one is shouting that they are gonna repair for you. no one cares enough to do that, those who CAN repair for you are usualy sitting in 1 of 2 places

1) next to the repair npc
2) at their guild


the way it works is as someone who needs repairs, it is, as stated, YOU need repairs, not "they NEED" to repair for you, so youll never see that as the case

and again, as stated, the problem lies in what battlers are willing to pay, 1k tip is crap, utter crap, and id refuse to repair for that honestly


when i seek repairs, i need it usualy on canvas and cotton, both of which are fairly cheap fents to get ahold of, so when i offer 5k, ythe repairman is pocketing most of it, but again as stated, thats still not very much. But it is "fair" for the fact that canvas/cotton are a bit on the common side.
Now if i say wanted something repaired only a handful of people can do, i better be offering 15-20k for that repair, cuz chances are...thats what its gonna take(note youll probly pay 3 times that at the npc anyway so its worth it)


money is plentiful, unlike FFXI, where it was a pain to get. thats the main thing you really need to understand, you can spend 5 minutes of time each day, and easily make 20-30k gil in that time as a battler.
each fight you are in, you are maming at least 2-3k gil if you sell what you get, sometimes way more.
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#292 Nov 24 2010 at 12:49 AM Rating: Default
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ok sorry, i don't have great communication. my ADD effects my hand eye corrdination, memory recall on stuff like grammer math and spelling. I know what i want to say/ write in my head, but when it comes out it a cluster F^@% of stuff which can seem rude and hostile ( not an excuse look it up on the wedmd site under adhd). I'm not trying to peeve ppl off. I'm just frustrated i'm trying to help you guys out now that i get an understanding, and i'm taken the wrong way. I currently don't play ffxiv but the system it uses is in serveral MUD. Thats is why i gave my two sence. MUD i played are fully player driven. meaning no or limited npc to pay gear and stuff degrades playing or not. So players rely on other players for the simple basics.
If crafters don't state what they deam are fair charges for repairs with mat or with out mats ppl will ask for w/e. Sure up to you to do the repairs, but if you keep refusing ppl will get upset crafters are not helping the community. which to me seems what is going on.
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#293 Nov 24 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
ok sorry, i don't have great communication. my ADD effects my hand eye corrdination, memory recall on stuff like grammer math and spelling. I know what i want to say/ write in my head, but when it comes out it a cluster F^@% of stuff which can seem rude and hostile ( not an excuse look it up on the wedmd site under adhd). I'm not trying to peeve ppl off. I'm just frustrated i'm trying to help you guys out now that i get an understanding, and i'm taken the wrong way. I currently don't play ffxiv but the system it uses is in serveral MUD. Thats is why i gave my two sence. MUD i played are fully player driven. meaning no or limited npc to pay gear and stuff degrades playing or not. So players rely on other players for the simple basics.
If crafters don't state what they deam are fair charges for repairs with mat or with out mats ppl will ask for w/e. Sure up to you to do the repairs, but if you keep refusing ppl will get upset crafters are not helping the community. which to me seems what is going on.


well crafters wont budge on this issue
we will not cave in to the few battlers who refuse to pay for repairs

note how i said "few" most people are fair and decent when it comes to repairs, but the vocal minority are the ones you see whining everywhere

1% of the population who doesnt like something is 100% louder then the other 99%, thats how it always is and thats why youll always see every game out there look like it has more issues then it does


also dont go into muds.....ive been out of those for almost 10 years and dont wanna be reminded of some of the work i put into them, especialy aardwolf
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#294 Nov 24 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Irishclass777 wrote:
ok sorry, i don't have great communication. my ADD effects my hand eye corrdination, memory recall on stuff like grammer math and spelling. I know what i want to say/ write in my head, but when it comes out it a cluster F^@% of stuff which can seem rude and hostile ( not an excuse look it up on the wedmd site under adhd). I'm not trying to peeve ppl off. I'm just frustrated i'm trying to help you guys out now that i get an understanding, and i'm taken the wrong way. I currently don't play ffxiv but the system it uses is in serveral MUD. Thats is why i gave my two sence. MUD i played are fully player driven. meaning no or limited npc to pay gear and stuff degrades playing or not. So players rely on other players for the simple basics.
If crafters don't state what they deam are fair charges for repairs with mat or with out mats ppl will ask for w/e. Sure up to you to do the repairs, but if you keep refusing ppl will get upset crafters are not helping the community. which to me seems what is going on.


Honestly, we don't need your help. There's nothing wrong with you sharing ideas but you're just beating the **** out of this. You don't even play the game. It's simple: I have several DoH classes in the 20-30 range. I didn't rank up those classes to do repairs for other people. I didn't rank up those classes to make gear for other people. I ranked up those classes because I learned a long time ago that overlooking crafting in any MMO is usually a mistake. I ranked up those classes because I wanted to be able to make and repair my own gear. The fact that I can make gear to sell to other players is a bonus. The fact that I can do repairs for other players is a bonus (or a curse, depending on how you look at it).

The whole repair system is broken. SE knows it, or at the very least they know that a very large segment of the player population doesn't like it. How they evolve the system over time will depend on just how much they had their hearts set on players providing the bulk of the repair services. It was a mistake for them to put such a basic necessity in the hands of players, and while I don't expect them to scrap the player repair option altogether, I do expect that in time, NPC will repair gear to 100% durability for a fraction of what they now charge and there will be repair NPCs at every aetheryte camp in the game. Anything less and SE will have missed the point.
#295 Nov 24 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Default
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@ gad
all i am doing is offering an easy solution to everyones complaints.
I'm trying to give you an idea (that works btw) to get it known what is fair and what isn't fair. if this is not how the game is, maybe things need to change.
I'm not ignoring anyone here, i'm not trolling, i'm not starting a fight.
if no one wants to use my idea fine by me, but to complain that i gave the idea is kinda hurtful.
this is what i'm seeing / getting. It is crafters skill to repair. it is the crafters choice to use said skill. It is also up to the crafter to decide what that skill is worth. If the crafter don't put out that worth, no one will know what is fair.
Like in buying items, no one wants to pay more then it should.
Amd since no crafter tells anyone what the worth is for repairs, then no crafter should complain about how much money they get.
You guys play an importent roll in the community with just your repair skill alone. And no one wants to pay for npc repairs.
So how about help the battlers out by telling.
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#296 Nov 24 2010 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
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@Irish

at this point, your that guy who enters the conversation and just states whats been going on for ages

this thread was made to talk about how to go about getting services from crafters
we were talking about repairs, prices etc etc

we all have a set price, usualy, mats + a few k


so we are talking about repairs, your the guy who comes in and says "hey guys guess what, i have this great idea" and then yoy repat exactly what weve been talking about the entire time like its something brand spanking new and no ones heard it before, even though we keep talking about it and you still are not noticing

I think its time for you to retire from this thread and have us all let it die cuz at this point, its like talking to a friggin brick wall
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#297 Nov 24 2010 at 1:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Alright people, Don't feed the trolls. And to the now muted troll, don't egg people on then constantly report them for replying to your provocation. It ****** me off.

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#298 Nov 24 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wow a lot has been said since I last dropped in on this thread...
(I honestly tried to read it all, but I need sleep at some point... this is like War and Peace, only, you know, funny.)

I wanted to relate some info tangent to something someone said somewhere in this thread that I remembered reading....

So I'm in the Carpenter guild working a leve, noticed a Miqo'te kinda just standing off to the side that hadn't moved since I'd been there, she had a bazaar sign up. Now I imagine that she was standing in the Carpenter guild because there was a wooden item she needed fixed, Rattan Fishing Pole (out of my carpentry league, and I didn't have any rattan lumber), but what I saw was that she was selling Straw for 2k a unit... and beneath that there was a repair request for a Fishing Hat paying 7k.
So pretty simple math on that... 5k profit for an easy fix if you're a Weaver... Which I am!
So that was probably a record for the most overpriced bundle of straw ever sold, but it was worth it. I had her hat repaired and was back to my leve in no time.
Later on, when I was running regional leves with some friends, I saw her at Camp Horizon... she was selling fish.
I don't know, but I just smile thinking that she was out fishing wearing the hat I repaired.

Another note...

I don't get why DoL and DoH get lumped together so often (like this -> DoL/DoH) in this thread.
DoL = Money train, all aboard!
DoH = Financial Black Hole
My Botany basically bankrolls EVERYTHING for me. One chop netting me 3 Oak Logs, hellz yeah! A DoL can vendor-trash every mat they produce (because it's just quicker than trying to find a buyer, but keep the shards), pay for NPC repairs (again for speed), and head right back out on another run, and earn MILLIONS. A non-bankrolled crafter could never do this, not at the going rates for shards.

I hate to advise this to dedicated crafters, but the only way to beat the inflated prices of shards/crystals is to ELIMINATE the demand, at least for a time. If you're out of shards, and you can't find any being sold for 200 or less. Stop crafting for a day or two, and pick up a DoL class. Earn some shards and gil and mats for a few days, and see if when you come back the prices have dropped.
If enough people do this eventually DoW/DoMs will come under certain pressures:
1.) No one is buying the shards/crystals that they've been selling (at stupid high prices) to pay for repairs. Their funds will begin to sink from paying for NPC repairs and they will have a surplus of shards. Concerns arise about liquid capital, supply is high, demand is low... prices should come down. This should also effect any mats that you gather yourself... because you are no longer a customer to the people you previously bought from.
2.) Not wholly unlike a union-strike, when the only repairs are available from the inferior NPC and all the repair-crafters are out gathering, I'm sure there will be at least a few frustrated people wanting crafters to "get back to work", a simple calm explanation of why you felt you needed to go gather (heard from enough crafters) should get desperate DoW/DoMs to become a bit more reasonable on their prices of shards/crystals and mats.
3.) The freeze on the availability of new gear should get the notice of those trying to grind up through the ranks... they won't even be able to sell their old gear (except to an NPC for a loss) without player-crafters.

Those sort of things would require more coordination than I'm willing to bet most people can muster though.

Night all! See you on the other side... of the update!

Sincerely,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan
#299 Nov 24 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Jesus! Seems I am a little late myself today!

That Irish guy/girl/thing doesn't even play the game and still bothers us
with her/his/its divine revelations? I knew he/she/it didn't have a clue
about what he/she/it was talking, but I didn't presume it was THAT bad?!
#300 Nov 24 2010 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Moved to own thread: ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=129061951232832451&page=1&howmany=50#msg129061951232832451

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I think a big problem is there is general ignorance regarding the value of many of the items out there? While a Mole Sinew may be vendor trash to you, it could mean a finished item with SP/gil tied to it for someone else. Given that there is such a distributed market (I don't think I could put that any more politically correct) price disparity and wild swings of valuation occur. Add to that the fact that at any given time a player may need to get repairs from multiple crafting specialists: weaver, goldsmith, blacksmith, armorer and maybe a leather worker too. The only place to handle all of those repairs is the worst value in the world: NPC repair vendors.

While I heartily enjoy the diverse number of crafts and items that can be made, it can seem an almost impossible task to "keep up" on repairs; likely the reason that so many players are running around with severely damaged equipment. Most people want to play a game for enjoyment, most players like to be as efficient about time/money sinks as possible so they can continue to enjoy the rest of the game. Having to either sacrifice a truck load of money for a sub-par repair, or potentially hours of running around for individual repairs, is not a compelling addition to the long-term enjoyment of a game.

Crafters cannot be everything to everyone. While a master smith may have made his or her way to the top, they likely can do nothing for you (in the short term) for your broken fishing rod. Nor can a jack-of-all-trades fix your Iron Axe of Awesome +2, because that person has spread their skill about (likely to manage their own repairs). So we have this diffuse crafting/repair economy with no standardization or coordination trying to assist a bevvy of adventurers who just want to have fun.

And fun being a finely subjective term may also add into this equation. A "towny" crafter may have no problem running between guilds to get their Velvet Robe of +40 craftsmanship repaired because it's in their back yard, but a Lancer would rather be in the field skewering nasty beasts. That Lancer's "fun" can potentially be ruined by the hoops that won't make the Weaver bat an eyelash. Worst case for the Lancer is they have to run into the middle of a town, far away from the Adventurer's Inn and the zone lines (where they want to be) to find a half-assed repair job for a mountain of cash.

I guess the proposal from me would be to make "sympathetic" crafts able to repair a range of goods, naturally using the required repair materials. Or that the repair range was severely slashed so that crafters of less overall skill can get adventurers back on their way. Both methods have their merits: one doubles or triples the pool of available crafters to assist you (the major drawback would be non-specialized crafters would have to consume bag space for multiple repair materials, or not have them at all), the other expands the repair pool as well as gives those crafters a small means of making basic funds/skill.

The latter would also alleviate multiple inhibiting factors; you are no longer "distracting" fast-track crafters from their grind to the top by asking for repairs, as well as reducing the expected cost of said repairs(lower level crafters would be much more content with a small sack of coins and a few SP, comparatively). It doesn't remove the ability for higher level crafters from providing repairs and certain boutique items could still require higher level mats/skill for the sake of not wholly relieving "Masters" of a market. Or better, both: lower level skill requirements and the ability to repair a range of gear (too much to ask?). Regardless, simplified repair mechanics would benefit to the enjoyment of the game for all.


Edited, Nov 24th 2010 11:27am by Krycis
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#301 Nov 24 2010 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's something I don't get about your rant against charging for repair. Whatever it cost me (even if you provide the mats), why should I do it ? Would you go out and farm shards for me for free ? It cost you nothing to do so, just some time. Please, go take 2 minutes and get me 6 ice shards out of the first marmot you see. For free of course, it cost you nothing.

You don't want to do it ? Of course ! There's no point in doing this.

Same goes for repair. I have no insensitive to repair your gear. It doesn't give me xp nor sp. You want to provide the mats ? Whatever, it is worst, because I have to go through the trading process to do it, a bigger waste of my time. I'm here to enjoy the game too, not to waste my time on some random guy gear.

Let's make this clear. I see no reason to repair your gear. There's no reason I should do it.

It is easy, you just have to give me one : put some good gil / shards for it.

Whatever you say or do won't change anything to this. You either accept to pay, or you go to the repair NPC.
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