Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Class definition, but still open system. Follow

#1 Nov 23 2010 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
37 posts
I have been thinking about how FF14 can bring a little more class definition and specific purpose (role) to its classes, but still maintain its openness of skill choosing.

On anther thread, on another site, someone had an idea. In fact, here is the idea, "Like as a random example, setting a certain selection of actions or traits as a Conjurer might give you a "White Mage" secondary title and perhaps give you a bonus trait which allows you to function more strongly as a healer."

I decided to bring it over to this forum, expose my line of thinking, and try to trigger some talk about possible ways to create the more definied roles without losing the flexibility that the system currently has.

So I started thinking. At first, I thought this idea would be awesome, but as I tried to expand the system to all classes, to all combination of classes, and also which skills in each class, I began thinking about how huge and messy that would be. So I started focusing on making the change for class definition within each class, since it is the single class itself that is missing its identity. Yes, you can build a certain identity, but it seems to break town a little in larger groups, or if nothing else, the system could use a little more emphasis on specific role.

I ask this: what about having a secondary set of skills within one class (instead of crossing classes like CON and THM), where you need either certain skills equipped (like BLU traits in FF11) or have a certain number of points that are your class, and you get a bonus class-defining skill, maybe one per 10 or 15 levels. Or, maybe you would need to have 90% of your class skill points used in your current class, or some other percentage.

This would allow for strong class identity in your build choice, but also leave the ability to be what you want solo, in duos or any groups or situations where people want to be creative. The choice would be that either you "go pure" to be that class, or lose the pure class identity, but gain a customizablility and flexibility.

I definitely see how that would introduce some pigeon holing for groups, where you must have such and such equipped, but I do think that will be the result if you enter any further role definition, as SE has stated that are going to do.


Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 4:29am by Mhantra
____________________________


#2 Nov 23 2010 at 5:51 AM Rating: Good
*
227 posts
-scratches head a moment-

That sound suspiciously like the talent tree thing in WoW to me.
____________________________
Remember: Some Times the Dragon Wins.



#3 Nov 23 2010 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
37 posts
Thornpaw wrote:
-scratches head a moment-

That sound suspiciously like the talent tree thing in WoW to me.


Hadn't considered that, was more thinking of closer to Blue Mage from FF11 initially. An innate skill that becomes active when certain conditions are met. If you have Provoke and Cover, it would enable an AOE taunt, for example, thus solidifying and extending the role as a tank. There is no talent tree, and I am talking about 2-4 maximum skills to make a more concise role in tanking for the Gladiator.

WoW has poisoned us all =\
____________________________


#4 Nov 23 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
Without having any class high enought to check I can't be sure but I would think that the class identity if implememnted by SE would be class specific skill obtained at high rank, maybe even above 50.

I know what you're saying and I agree with it, now everyone is DD or healer, thats it but we are still in the begining, let some time pass, SE fix some of the things most people shout about and then they might have the time to look into it.

Also if you would like to propose something you might wanna use the Feedback Forum.
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#5 Nov 23 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
*
160 posts
i get what you meen, with blu spells depending what combo you set you would get diferent bonus so i think that would work to a extent. only problem is there isint enugh spells at 20 con to realy fill 90% of the points to be a whm in a sence.
____________________________
FF XI
Server: Valefor
Character: Heya
Jobs: BLM 75, BLU 75, PLD 75 everything else at SJ cap
Retired: Febuary, 2008

WoW
Server: Ravencrest
Classs: Druid, Warlock, Mage, Death Knight 80
Retired: June, 2010

FF XIV
Server: Fabul
Name: Heya Yamamoto
Race: Lilifell Dunesfolk
Primary Class: conjur
#6 Nov 23 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
109 posts
I, for one, think this is an excellent idea.

Right now, since I started over on a new character, my LNC is rank 11. The abilities I have set are as follows:

Light Thrust
Heavy Thrust
Red Lotus
Moonrise
Rampart
Bloodbath
Speed Surge
Second Wind

Two of the six abilities that require AP to set are LNC abilities. And I almost never use Moonrise. Right now, the abilities I have from other classes are much better than the ones I have for LNC. I have no incentive to actually use my own abilities.

From what I can tell, you always have enough AP to set every one of your abilities plus one from another class. This may change at higher ranks, but I've only gotten to 17. If I got a bonus for having all of my class abilities set, like say an ACC or attack speed bonus, or maybe some kind of enmity or TP management trait, I might want to actually be a "Lancer."

Another issue with class identity is: There's no real apparent difference between weapons. In other games it feels a lot different using a dagger compared with a great axe. Here they all seem to have about the same delay (stamina cost) and about the same damage. I'd like it if MRD's basic attack used more stamina and did a lot more damage, whereas if you switch to dagger on GLA, your stamina usage goes down, along with your damage.
____________________________
-Ruinaru-Tarutaru-
-Bastok-Rank 7-
-Carbuncle-
-THF75/BLU65-
Maat Mashed: 6:03 pm EST 2/15/07

-Forofor-Tarutaru-
-San d'Oria-Rank 5-
-Shiva-
-BLU61/THF95/WAR50/NIN50/DNC50/RNG50-
#7 Nov 23 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
*
85 posts
Ruinaru wrote:
I, for one, think this is an excellent idea.

Right now, since I started over on a new character, my LNC is rank 11. The abilities I have set are as follows:

Light Thrust
Heavy Thrust
Red Lotus
Moonrise
Rampart
Bloodbath
Speed Surge
Second Wind

Two of the six abilities that require AP to set are LNC abilities. And I almost never use Moonrise. Right now, the abilities I have from other classes are much better than the ones I have for LNC. I have no incentive to actually use my own abilities.

From what I can tell, you always have enough AP to set every one of your abilities plus one from another class. This may change at higher ranks, but I've only gotten to 17. If I got a bonus for having all of my class abilities set, like say an ACC or attack speed bonus, or maybe some kind of enmity or TP management trait, I might want to actually be a "Lancer."

Another issue with class identity is: There's no real apparent difference between weapons. In other games it feels a lot different using a dagger compared with a great axe. Here they all seem to have about the same delay (stamina cost) and about the same damage. I'd like it if MRD's basic attack used more stamina and did a lot more damage, whereas if you switch to dagger on GLA, your stamina usage goes down, along with your damage.


That's a good point..I miss variation of weapon types. They all feel the same, each class. So stats tend to be built the same way, unlike FFXI. In FFXI, you stats worked differently for two handed weapons and such and people would work on different stats depending on the weapons. Also based on skills and such, I hope we find modifiers strongly tied to stats, and maybe the modifiers can be higher for specific classes, hence furthering the different feel.
#8 Nov 23 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
16 posts
In another thread I prayed for a guaranteed per-mob SP gain with a bonus awarded based on... something.

It would be cool if you got an sp bonus if you ONLY had one set of abilities equipped...

That, or make it so you could only use other class abilities if they were "Mastered" a'la FFV. Yes, this would add another grind to an already grindy game, but it would make a heck of a lot more sense than your Gladiator who spent 4 levels as a THM being able to use Sacrifice.

Eventually this would lead to some kind of "hero" class who had rank 50 in every dow/dom job just being able to do everything anyway, but maybe that's another goal for the completionists to strive for...
____________________________

#9 Nov 23 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Assuming they aren't going to make the battle infinitely more engaging and fun, I'd rather see each class play in a fundamentally different way, rather than simply, "select action, select action, select action".
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#10 Nov 23 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
235 posts
In XI with the jobs/subjobs, most classes didn't come into their own until about level 60. Though I agree that most classes in this game don't feel very unique at the moment.
____________________________


#11 Nov 23 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
****
9,526 posts
I personally really like the mix and match feel. I never see people using the combination of skills I usually have on as a gladiator soloing - drain MP, sacrifice, absorb accuracy, red lotus, damnation, those are some of the skills I use frequently in addition to the basic slash and stab. I solo without a shield because I personally don't give a rat's bottom about skilling shield atm, since I only need R10 to get aegis boon - I figure that will happen pretty quickly once I party with a shield as a tank. Right now I just want to get my glad to partying level.

I don't need every class to feel cookie-cutter - that is what people seem to be asking for. Maybe I am wrong but having every lancer have the same skills seems meh to me. Giving people bonuses so they all play with the same abilities on their bar would really undermine the awesomeness of this system in my opinion.

Now - it would be cool if each class could unlock special (unique to that class) abilities for certain combinations of abilities (not just from their class) - like say if a gladiator equipped provoke, taunt, and absorb defense if they got a bonus to enemity - that would be cool - and if a pug equipped provoke, taunt and absorb defense if they got a boost to evasion (for example).

I would be totally into that.

____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#12 Nov 23 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
322 posts
I think this will happen but they need to work out balancing and go over numbers first.

Plus, there are so many other things that need to be looked at first.

It all comes down to being patient, once again.
____________________________


#13 Nov 23 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
As I understand it, SE has specifically stayed away from using old job names because they want to reinforce that it's a new game and they want to preserve that freedom. If you want to play in the style of a WHM, build your character in the style of a WHM. The instant SE adds incentives to build your character a certain way, the freedom concept goes directly out the window because then you start looking at explicitly defined cookie cutter builds that people will be "expected" to use once they reach a rank where they have enough AP to manage the build.

It's one thing to add things to specific classes that help differentiate them from other class. That's done at the class level as something you get, for example, as a Conjurer that is part of being a Conjurer and that only Conjurers get. It's another thing entirely to start directing players at the build level (aka how you spend your AP), because once you start implementing things that direct people to certain builds, there's no going back. Instead of the game being about what other classes have that could benefit me in my role in a group based on my playstyle, it becomes about what abilities I need to pick up and equip in order to get access to <x> ability/trait that comes from building my character a certain way.
#14 Nov 23 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Excellent
15 posts
Aurelius wrote:
As I understand it, SE has specifically stayed away from using old job names because they want to reinforce that it's a new game and they want to preserve that freedom. If you want to play in the style of a WHM, build your character in the style of a WHM. The instant SE adds incentives to build your character a certain way, the freedom concept goes directly out the window because then you start looking at explicitly defined cookie cutter builds that people will be "expected" to use once they reach a rank where they have enough AP to manage the build.

It's one thing to add things to specific classes that help differentiate them from other class. That's done at the class level as something you get, for example, as a Conjurer that is part of being a Conjurer and that only Conjurers get. It's another thing entirely to start directing players at the build level (aka how you spend your AP), because once you start implementing things that direct people to certain builds, there's no going back. Instead of the game being about what other classes have that could benefit me in my role in a group based on my playstyle, it becomes about what abilities I need to pick up and equip in order to get access to <x> ability/trait that comes from building my character a certain way.


The behavior you're referencing is already in the game in the form of allowing the player to set ability usage, that is to say, they already provide incentives to the player to select appropriate skills for whatever role they want to play by making skills that facilitate that role. This suggestion is not outside of that design.

If the concern is that it will produce an atmosphere in which certain skills would then be required, that will happen anyway - it is the sign of a mature game.

For instance, at some point in the future it will be determined that the method that produces the most damage per second involves playing X class with Y abilities equipped, and the same will be done in both the tanking and healing roles. This will happen whether or not Square sets predefined roles per class, or creates abilities that have other prerequisite abilities, or implements any other class construct that can be created.
#15 Nov 23 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
136 posts
I can agree that certain skills will be required for certain classes. I can see some of that already, for example the lancer tp gain skill, i think its call invigorate. Thats a great skill for any DD and you can get it as early as level 14. I think your gonna see a lot of this sure but your not gonna know who has what abilities in a random party so i think a good amount of mobility will still be left open. People swapping more useful skills like Hawkeye for maybe something like punishing barbs.
The system will still sort of function though, if your a level 50 pugilist and you start over having skills like second wind 2 will clearly give you an advantage, even if your required to have skills like invigorate you'll still have enough AP to put on 2 or 3 abilities at the beginning that'll make you noticeably more distinct than your low level peers.

In terms of class distinction a lot of it comes out from your TP skills. Equipping another jobs TP skills isn't really that useful unless your a party with out a monk lets say and you want access to very useful skills like concussive blow, Or are without a gladiator and want the use of luminous spire.

All and all i think your fears are well founded but i think the characters will be significantly more unique than the 4 or so subjobs everyone used in FFXI.
#16 Nov 23 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
I think once the community matures you will start to see more and more definition between classes naturally.

Also once parties start coming around classes WILL be reduced to min/maxing; that's just the way things will go.

I do think there still needs to be some defining skills or even a complete change; how WoW's Rogue used combat points instead of a Warrior's rage for example. But that would be hard to implement if you had to cross balance abilities used from other classes.
#17 Nov 23 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
Lezale wrote:
The behavior you're referencing is already in the game in the form of allowing the player to set ability usage, that is to say, they already provide incentives to the player to select appropriate skills for whatever role they want to play by making skills that facilitate that role. This suggestion is not outside of that design.


The point I was getting at is that right now, your incentive to select the abilities you use is based on what you're trying to accomplish with those specific abilities. Adding in another layer that says, "Equip abilities <a>, <b> and <c> in order to get ability/trait <d>" means you're not selecting abilities based on what you use, you're selecting them to meet the developer's pre-determined requirements in order to gain access to something you want.
#18 Nov 23 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
37 posts
Aurelius wrote:
As I understand it, SE has specifically stayed away from using old job names because they want to reinforce that it's a new game and they want to preserve that freedom. If you want to play in the style of a WHM, build your character in the style of a WHM. The instant SE adds incentives to build your character a certain way, the freedom concept goes directly out the window because then you start looking at explicitly defined cookie cutter builds that people will be "expected" to use once they reach a rank where they have enough AP to manage the build.

It's one thing to add things to specific classes that help differentiate them from other class. That's done at the class level as something you get, for example, as a Conjurer that is part of being a Conjurer and that only Conjurers get. It's another thing entirely to start directing players at the build level (aka how you spend your AP), because once you start implementing things that direct people to certain builds, there's no going back. Instead of the game being about what other classes have that could benefit me in my role in a group based on my playstyle, it becomes about what abilities I need to pick up and equip in order to get access to <x> ability/trait that comes from building my character a certain way.



I totally agree that this is one of the negatives of mine and others ideas about this (have read some great responses)system. I can say that i see two big issues going on, one is easy to fix, the other isn't.

First of all, SE already mandates you stay within your class to some extent, because the more non-class skills you have, the less SP you get. That will need to change to keep the option of cross classing skills.

Secondly, in groups, the group dynamics are so poor that people are setting up groups to just pharm SP and essentially, breaks the game down to a few skills each. Period. This will be tough to fix without actually assigning some sort of defining role. Now to a solo class, why would they want that? No need, just create your solo character as you see fit. That is the great part of the solo system that I do not want to change...And it won't necessarily change it because to the solo Gladiator, who cares if you have higher tank skills?
____________________________


#19 Nov 23 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
37 posts
Ruinaru wrote:
I, for one, think this is an excellent idea.

Right now, since I started over on a new character, my LNC is rank 11. The abilities I have set are as follows:

Light Thrust
Heavy Thrust
Red Lotus
Moonrise
Rampart
Bloodbath
Speed Surge
Second Wind

Two of the six abilities that require AP to set are LNC abilities. And I almost never use Moonrise. Right now, the abilities I have from other classes are much better than the ones I have for LNC. I have no incentive to actually use my own abilities.

From what I can tell, you always have enough AP to set every one of your abilities plus one from another class. This may change at higher ranks, but I've only gotten to 17. If I got a bonus for having all of my class abilities set, like say an ACC or attack speed bonus, or maybe some kind of enmity or TP management trait, I might want to actually be a "Lancer."

Another issue with class identity is: There's no real apparent difference between weapons. In other games it feels a lot different using a dagger compared with a great axe. Here they all seem to have about the same delay (stamina cost) and about the same damage. I'd like it if MRD's basic attack used more stamina and did a lot more damage, whereas if you switch to dagger on GLA, your stamina usage goes down, along with your damage.


Good points and good ideas, especially the weapon. I agree there is something lacking with choosing which weapon you use, and maybe the answer is as simple as literally adding some core class skills to one of the weapons. Maybe to balance that out, the other weapon can have bonus AP or something.
____________________________


#20 Nov 23 2010 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
37 posts
Lezale wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
As I understand it, SE has specifically stayed away from using old job names because they want to reinforce that it's a new game and they want to preserve that freedom. If you want to play in the style of a WHM, build your character in the style of a WHM. The instant SE adds incentives to build your character a certain way, the freedom concept goes directly out the window because then you start looking at explicitly defined cookie cutter builds that people will be "expected" to use once they reach a rank where they have enough AP to manage the build.

It's one thing to add things to specific classes that help differentiate them from other class. That's done at the class level as something you get, for example, as a Conjurer that is part of being a Conjurer and that only Conjurers get. It's another thing entirely to start directing players at the build level (aka how you spend your AP), because once you start implementing things that direct people to certain builds, there's no going back. Instead of the game being about what other classes have that could benefit me in my role in a group based on my playstyle, it becomes about what abilities I need to pick up and equip in order to get access to <x> ability/trait that comes from building my character a certain way.


The behavior you're referencing is already in the game in the form of allowing the player to set ability usage, that is to say, they already provide incentives to the player to select appropriate skills for whatever role they want to play by making skills that facilitate that role. This suggestion is not outside of that design.

If the concern is that it will produce an atmosphere in which certain skills would then be required, that will happen anyway - it is the sign of a mature game.

For instance, at some point in the future it will be determined that the method that produces the most damage per second involves playing X class with Y abilities equipped, and the same will be done in both the tanking and healing roles. This will happen whether or not Square sets predefined roles per class, or creates abilities that have other prerequisite abilities, or implements any other class construct that can be created.


Good point, I hadn't looked at it that way. Trying to keep it completely open with no bias for skills is like trying to stop a tidal wave standing on the beach with a sqaure ash shield. Maybe it is better overall to "nudge" the direction a little bit to give it more of an intended form.

If they have a little more intention to their class roles, they could create better group and raid content because the roles will be more predictable.


Edited, Nov 24th 2010 12:41am by Mhantra
____________________________


#21 Nov 23 2010 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
*
84 posts
The problem with this system is when you do not have a defined role such as WHM, you have issues with knowing what job you are getting when you invite someone, a lot of CON despise healing and you cannot invite a CON and expect them to be a healer some like to play solely as a BLM type.

This goes for other classes as well to a lesser extent, I know some GLD that will not use a shield and do not want to tank they just like the sword.
____________________________
(75NIN)(72THF)(75SAM)(63DRG)(57WAR)(42PLD)(57 blm)(36cor)(50RNG)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b165/Lildynamite/sig-stupifyed02.jpg

#22 Nov 24 2010 at 12:02 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
37 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Lezale wrote:
The behavior you're referencing is already in the game in the form of allowing the player to set ability usage, that is to say, they already provide incentives to the player to select appropriate skills for whatever role they want to play by making skills that facilitate that role. This suggestion is not outside of that design.


The point I was getting at is that right now, your incentive to select the abilities you use is based on what you're trying to accomplish with those specific abilities. Adding in another layer that says, "Equip abilities <a>, <b> and <c> in order to get ability/trait <d>" means you're not selecting abilities based on what you use, you're selecting them to meet the developer's pre-determined requirements in order to gain access to something you want.


I agree, that is a slippery slope. I honestly am not completely tied to equipping certain skills as the way to get the class specific skills, and would love to hear more ideas about how it could be done. Tied to weapons? Tied to the class, non-cross classable (I know there are some of these, maybe we just enhance the abilities and make them more role oriented)?
____________________________


#23 Nov 24 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Stupifyed wrote:
The problem with this system is when you do not have a defined role such as WHM, you have issues with knowing what job you are getting when you invite someone, a lot of CON despise healing and you cannot invite a CON and expect them to be a healer some like to play solely as a BLM type.

This goes for other classes as well to a lesser extent, I know some GLD that will not use a shield and do not want to tank they just like the sword.


Other games are set up to allow specific classes to support multiple roles and it's not an issue. In those games, you don't ask for a class, you ask for a role. That should be a no-brainer in XIV by now because most people already know that there is no dedicated healing class. We don't need the developer trying to add in all kinds of incentives and titles to create a distinction that players are perfectly capable of making on their own. For all we know, a year from now Gladiators could wind up as the most effective tank healers in endgame content if they build their character a certain way, but what happens if players get used to the idea of waiting for a title or bonus ability/trait before they accept a particular class for a particular role?
#24 Nov 24 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
I completely agree here. I think the best thing to do would be to just give small bonuses for having a certain set of skills. Like some other people said, maybe even having like 3 skills equipped can give you another bonus (such as extra health, enmity, accuracy, etc.)

While making the classes more defined is a good idea, it has to be done carefully not to undo the freedom of the current system right now.

I also like the idea of weapons determining the amount of stamina that is used for melee abilities. A two-handed axe should definitely feel slower than a dagger or small sword. I don't know how easy it would be to do this though, I'm sure they'd have to balance the stamina that spells are using and stuff. But it is a good idea for sure.

And I agree with what someone previously said before as well. When you're looking for someone for a party you don't say "I need a conjurer". You look for what role you need, whether it's damage, healing, etc,. Also, I think the magic of the class system is to not necessarily define the classes so easily for everyone. I'm glad the system is working, because it seems the people who are asking for more defined classes just want to make sure they know what they're doing. I personally have enough faith in my RPG skills to trust myself to make good classes throughout the game. The spell system is supposed to be creative :)
____________________________


#25 Nov 24 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
*
85 posts
Maybe create two types of AP? Half that can be used ONLY for your current class skills and the other half to be used with whatever skills are available. That way, you're forced to delve into your class pretty strongly, but still have freedom to do other things too.

I do see a lack of good passive skills, so maybe use those to somehow further differentiation? I've seen some good ideas, now we have to wait and see what SE will come up with.

edit: I hope these changes to class right now that make abilities last longer aren't the only way they hope to make disciplines more unique. More effective when used for the correct class is great and all, but it's not necessarily a game changer.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 2:53pm by XienithSilvercloud
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 19 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (19)