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new sp obtain system and your expectationFollow

#1 Nov 24 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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From the lodestone info. What do u think the new system will be like?

And will the raptor yield lower or higher SP than now?
#2 Nov 24 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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i think people will complain about it


old system, you got alot of random gains, but you saw MANY high gains on top of low ones, 300+ for instance

new system, you will gain steady SP, but it wont be up to what people feel they should get per fight, so people will complain because they arent getting those 300+ off mobs they used to get it off of


just watch, you shall see it happen just like this
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#3 Nov 24 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
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no expectations aside from it being not what it was before...
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#4 Nov 24 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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I suspect that the amount of SP you gain will correspond directly to the monster's color.
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#5 Nov 24 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Overall the limits will be lowered but I suspect they'll up the party-bonus SP to motivate people to group up.

(the pt bonus is massive already so hit that recruit button people)
#6 Nov 24 2010 at 1:53 AM Rating: Default
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then i just barb yellow mobs for easy and FAST kill = good fast sp,...oh yeah

solo FTW


Edited, Nov 24th 2010 2:53am by namasy

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 2:54am by namasy
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#7 Nov 24 2010 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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SickleSageKiroh wrote:
I suspect that the amount of SP you gain will correspond directly to the monster's color.


^This.

The amount of skill points earned in battle is now determined by the enemy being encountered. We can safely assume that tougher monster gives better SP.

Therefore, we will want to fight monster as tough as possible and kill it as fast as possible for better SP gain.

This result in a game breaking change for solo/party battle, by game breaking I mean changing fm Nonsense back to a Normal standard.
#8 Nov 24 2010 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly, I hope they get rid of the 15 man sp-***** bonus and make the whole thing more streamline in general. But I guess we'll see sooner or later.
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#9 Nov 24 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Default
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Siulang wrote:
SickleSageKiroh wrote:
I suspect that the amount of SP you gain will correspond directly to the monster's color.


^This.

The amount of skill points earned in battle is now determined by the enemy being encountered. We can safely assume that tougher monster gives better SP.

Therefore, we will want to fight monster as tough as possible and kill it as fast as possible for better SP gain.

This result in a game breaking change for solo/party battle, by game breaking I mean changing fm Nonsense back to a Normal standard.



thats true, and if sp is still cap at 500, then more 4-5 ppl party will be pretty much pointless, most ppl will just find a good place to fram yellow onwards mobs will get maybe around 150-300+sp easy. how easy?? all you need is a few healing skill eg, cure/regen/second wind/bloodbath ,. and dont forgot the godlike skill rank 10 thm barbs.........


so Solo > party play for sp.....


just leave party to leves and NM's


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#10 Nov 24 2010 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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I'll be extremely surprised (and disappointed) if heavy penalties for solo'ing are somehow taken away during this update

As it is now there are no parties and I don't intend on playing for very much longer if that is the case

I play an MMO to , you know, play and socialize with other people, not grind solo.
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#11 Nov 24 2010 at 2:23 AM Rating: Good
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tylerbee wrote:
I'll be extremely surprised (and disappointed) if heavy penalties for solo'ing are somehow taken away during this update

As it is now there are no parties and I don't intend on playing for very much longer if that is the case

I play an MMO to , you know, play and socialize with other people, not grind solo.


There are currently no penalties for playing solo. The system is tuned to favor group play. And if SE heavily penalizes solo play, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. No other MMO I've played (excluding XI) has felt the need to "penalize" solo players and they tend to feature an abundance of group content. If people aren't grouping, it's usually because they don't want to. And if they don't want to but the dev forces them to, they aren't going to stick around.

Forced group play is a dated concept that has been proven as a failure because it's not necessary. You can have entertaining, rewarding solo content and engaging, rewarding group content all under one roof and any MMO developer that doesn't grasp that is going to suffer heavily for it in their bottom line.

What I'm anticipating with the SP changes is a base SP amount based on player rank vs. mob rank with modifiers for group play. There's no need for an MMO developer to force group play on its players. Even if SE puts a base SP of 200 on "even match" mobs and allows it to extend to the current cap of 500 in a large group, they're still restricting solo progression more than most other MMO developers but it's something I could live with. If it's a case of a solo player getting 50-100 SP vs. the players in a group getting 500, it's not going to fly.
#12namasy, Posted: Nov 24 2010 at 2:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol have you ever been in a sp-***** pt? and it was the most boring thing i have ever done,omg.
#13 Nov 24 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Forced group play is a dated concept that has been proven as a failure because it's not necessary. You can have entertaining, rewarding solo content and engaging, rewarding group content all under one roof and any MMO developer that doesn't grasp that is going to suffer heavily for it in their bottom line.


I disagree. I have never seen this work as it should. I also don't see how it could work.

Soloing and Grouping are not equal playstyles. One of them has to come ahead.
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#14 Nov 24 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Forced group play is a dated concept that has been proven as a failure because it's not necessary. You can have entertaining, rewarding solo content and engaging, rewarding group content all under one roof and any MMO developer that doesn't grasp that is going to suffer heavily for it in their bottom line.


I disagree. I have never seen this work as it should. I also don't see how it could work.

Soloing and Grouping are not equal playstyles. One of them has to come ahead.


It's not hard. It starts with tuning the game around a rewarding solo experience. If a developer decides to try and make solo play so slow and painful that nobody wants to do it, they're alienating a large number of people who would otherwise be happy to pay a monthly fee to play. Once they've got a game that a solo player can enjoy, they build group content on top of that with incentives like faster progression, better gear, etc. There's a huge difference between, "If you want to progress at a reasonable pace, you must group" and "Here are some perks and benefits to succeeding in a group that you can't get as a solo player."

One approach produces a game that satisfies solo players and those who like to group. The other only satisfies those who like to group. After that, it's up to the players. If there's tons of solo content and tons of group content and you're having a hard time finding a group, that tells you something. Either the developers haven't offered enough incentive for groups, they've made the group content unapproachable by PUGs, or you're in a part of a minority. Developers that drive away a majority to cater to a minority are not doing a very good job with their game.
#15 Nov 24 2010 at 2:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
I'll be extremely surprised (and disappointed) if heavy penalties for solo'ing are somehow taken away during this update

As it is now there are no parties and I don't intend on playing for very much longer if that is the case

I play an MMO to , you know, play and socialize with other people, not grind solo.


There are currently no penalties for playing solo. The system is tuned to favor group play. And if SE heavily penalizes solo play, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. No other MMO I've played (excluding XI) has felt the need to "penalize" solo players and they tend to feature an abundance of group content. If people aren't grouping, it's usually because they don't want to. And if they don't want to but the dev forces them to, they aren't going to stick around.

Forced group play is a dated concept that has been proven as a failure because it's not necessary. You can have entertaining, rewarding solo content and engaging, rewarding group content all under one roof and any MMO developer that doesn't grasp that is going to suffer heavily for it in their bottom line.

What I'm anticipating with the SP changes is a base SP amount based on player rank vs. mob rank with modifiers for group play. There's no need for an MMO developer to force group play on its players. Even if SE puts a base SP of 200 on "even match" mobs and allows it to extend to the current cap of 500 in a large group, they're still restricting solo progression more than most other MMO developers but it's something I could live with. If it's a case of a solo player getting 50-100 SP vs. the players in a group getting 500, it's not going to fly.


Well, maybe not a penalty for soloing, but a reward for grouping then as you've stated. If there are no rewards for grouping, then noone will do it frequently. I believe the focus on grouping in MMOs is still very important to those of us who play MMOs for the social experience.

Currently a very popular MMO has no rewards in place for grouping in terms of XP etc and the leveling experience in that game is extremely solo-orientated and to put it bluntly unentertaining if you compare the experience to single player offline RPGs. I don't want another one of those where I don't talk to anyone for an odd 80 levels because people are too impatient to form parties. MMOs are not for casual players, imo.

EDIT: I just wanted to make clear that I still want solo players to be able to solo to cap but not near as efficiently as a group. If I can do it solo as effectively as I can in a group, i'm not interesting in this "mmo"

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 3:40am by tylerbee
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#16 Nov 24 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Default
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This is already how it is for Mages

my 31 Conj never gets above 140 SP solo on IT elementals the easiest IT i can kill it still takes forever an many spell casts and wand hits and 140 max ever. Id love to see a floor of 200 are you ******* kidding me?

All melee classes are already able to get 500 a kill right now if they play smart and kill the right **** killing blues and ******** your sp sucks is for the retards they feed the noob economy so there is a place for them.

Your totally disconnected.


Aurelius wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
I'll be extremely surprised (and disappointed) if heavy penalties for solo'ing are somehow taken away during this update

As it is now there are no parties and I don't intend on playing for very much longer if that is the case

I play an MMO to , you know, play and socialize with other people, not grind solo.


There are currently no penalties for playing solo. The system is tuned to favor group play. And if SE heavily penalizes solo play, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. No other MMO I've played (excluding XI) has felt the need to "penalize" solo players and they tend to feature an abundance of group content. If people aren't grouping, it's usually because they don't want to. And if they don't want to but the dev forces them to, they aren't going to stick around.

Forced group play is a dated concept that has been proven as a failure because it's not necessary. You can have entertaining, rewarding solo content and engaging, rewarding group content all under one roof and any MMO developer that doesn't grasp that is going to suffer heavily for it in their bottom line.

What I'm anticipating with the SP changes is a base SP amount based on player rank vs. mob rank with modifiers for group play. There's no need for an MMO developer to force group play on its players. Even if SE puts a base SP of 200 on "even match" mobs and allows it to extend to the current cap of 500 in a large group, they're still restricting solo progression more than most other MMO developers but it's something I could live with. If it's a case of a solo player getting 50-100 SP vs. the players in a group getting 500, it's not going to fly.

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#17 Nov 24 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This is already how it is for Mages

my 31 Conj never gets above 140 SP solo on IT elementals the easiest IT i can kill it still takes forever an many spell casts and wand hits and 140 max ever. Id love to see a floor of 200 are you @#%^ing kidding me?

All melee classes are already able to get 500 a kill right now if they play smart and kill the right sh*t killing blues and ******** your sp sucks is for the retards they feed the noob economy so there is a place for them.

Your totally disconnected.



From grammar or interpunctation?
#18cornyboob, Posted: Nov 24 2010 at 2:59 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The internet is for ****, not good grammer it only recently became a heaven for online gaming after people grew tired of ****.
#19 Nov 24 2010 at 3:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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tylerbee wrote:
I'll be extremely surprised (and disappointed) if heavy penalties for solo'ing are somehow taken away during this update

As it is now there are no parties and I don't intend on playing for very much longer if that is the case

I play an MMO to , you know, play and socialize with other people, not grind solo.
Your playstyle is not going to be the preferred playstyle of every other player, however. They need to make both options viable. Currently, soloing isn't a viable option due to the pathetic SP gains after rank 20.

I socialize through chat with my LS and friends, but I prefer to solo so I can go at my own pace. If I want a drink, or need a bio, or the phone rings, I don't want to have to wait for my party to have a break so I can take care of that. In a group I cannot alt+tab over to browse some music, check emails, or read forums (like right now - I'm currently doing a guildleve ingame). For other people, like those with young children, they need to take frequent AFK's to check on things.

Then there's the fact that right now, joining a SP party is like being sent to a boredom boot camp. Sit in one spot and kill the monsters that pop up, but don't kill them too quick, don't use your skills, don't do this, or that, etc. It's a whole whack or rules that kill any potential enjoyment because of how the random SP gain garbage works.

This is going to change with the update, and partying is going to become more fun because you can actually play your class like its meant to be played. But that doesn't mean soloing should remain broken. MMO's are game worlds filled with hundreds of players, but it doesn't mean you need to group with them all, no more than going to the movies means you're going to discuss the movie with everyone else in the theater.
#20namasy, Posted: Nov 24 2010 at 3:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) spot on, thats what im try to say, lazy sp-***** bye bye...................
#21 Nov 24 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:


It's not hard. It starts with tuning the game around a rewarding solo experience. If a developer decides to try and make solo play so slow and painful that nobody wants to do it, they're alienating a large number of people who would otherwise be happy to pay a monthly fee to play. Once they've got a game that a solo player can enjoy, they build group content on top of that with incentives like faster progression, better gear, etc. There's a huge difference between, "If you want to progress at a reasonable pace, you must group" and "Here are some perks and benefits to succeeding in a group that you can't get as a solo player."

One approach produces a game that satisfies solo players and those who like to group. The other only satisfies those who like to group. After that, it's up to the players. If there's tons of solo content and tons of group content and you're having a hard time finding a group, that tells you something. Either the developers haven't offered enough incentive for groups, they've made the group content unapproachable by PUGs, or you're in a part of a minority. Developers that drive away a majority to cater to a minority are not doing a very good job with their game.


Slightly off point,

I hate to keep peddling a game that doesn't exist but it sounds this is what Guild Wars 2 is explicitly wanting to do, and what FFXIV is implicitly trying to do. And even though these sorts of forced grouping seems sterile they seem to work in FPSs (though for the obvious reasons).

I think people generally DO want to party and/or play with people, I know I'm not the most sociable person but FFXI PUGs were some of the most fun leveling I've had in any game. All that needed to be done was fix the LFG system, and insane group requirements (which was ironically min/maxed by the players/ or brought about by FFXI's job system). In any case it seems SE is on to something with FFXIV LFG system. I've been waiting for a MMO to borrow an FPS style auto-group type system. Though THIS type of grouping is probably the reason why the game IS viable solo AND why the classes are all so similar in play styles and nature; SE just needs to give it a bit of a nudge.

I was hoping that FFIXV was FFXI with the leveling scales flipped around. With the advent of FoV in FFXI soloing was viable yet groups still dominated. In FFXIV, the majority solo, while only a few group; I'd love that to swing towards the middle as I think SE had laid a good foundation here.

#22 Nov 24 2010 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
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theweenie wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
I'll be extremely surprised (and disappointed) if heavy penalties for solo'ing are somehow taken away during this update

As it is now there are no parties and I don't intend on playing for very much longer if that is the case

I play an MMO to , you know, play and socialize with other people, not grind solo.
Your playstyle is not going to be the preferred playstyle of every other player, however. They need to make both options viable. Currently, soloing isn't a viable option due to the pathetic SP gains after rank 20.

I socialize through chat with my LS and friends, but I prefer to solo so I can go at my own pace. If I want a drink, or need a bio, or the phone rings, I don't want to have to wait for my party to have a break so I can take care of that. In a group I cannot alt+tab over to browse some music, check emails, or read forums (like right now - I'm currently doing a guildleve ingame). For other people, like those with young children, they need to take frequent AFK's to check on things.

Then there's the fact that right now, joining a SP party is like being sent to a boredom boot camp. Sit in one spot and kill the monsters that pop up, but don't kill them too quick, don't use your skills, don't do this, or that, etc. It's a whole whack or rules that kill any potential enjoyment because of how the random SP gain garbage works.

This is going to change with the update, and partying is going to become more fun because you can actually play your class like its meant to be played. But that doesn't mean soloing should remain broken. MMO's are game worlds filled with hundreds of players, but it doesn't mean you need to group with them all, no more than going to the movies means you're going to discuss the movie with everyone else in the theater.


All I am saying is that grouping and solo'ing cannot be on the same level or else noone will ever group which ultimately defeats the purpose of an MMO.

Yes, its broken right now in terms of SP gain and thats why everyone is just crafting except for the hardcore masochists.
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#23 Nov 24 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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tylerbee wrote:

EDIT: I just wanted to make clear that I still want solo players to be able to solo to cap but not near as efficiently as a group. If I can do it solo as effectively as I can in a group, i'm not interesting in this "mmo"


The part I bolded for emphasis is where you lose people like me. The discrepancy between rate of progression for solo and group doesn't have to be huge. It doesn't even have to be big. Better for groups than solo? Sure. Way better? No. Because then you start crossing over into the territory where solo play either has to be painfully slow or group play pushes people to the cap in two weeks and then they sit around bored whining that there's nothing to do.

You can't have both. You can't have rewarding solo play and then build in all these huge benefits to group play or you end up with a system that's just entirely out of whack. Everyone and their dog seems to love to whine about the lack of content in XIV and the one area where I'll agree is that there is NO group content. To me, group content is content that is still tuned by rank but that a solo player could not succeed in. That's not how it works in XIV. In XIV, you make your own group content by fighting things way the **** above your rank, or you select more stars on your battlecraft leves which basically increases the rank of the mobs you're fighting. That's it.

If people like to group, then they should be happy to group regardless of how their progression is paced relative to solo players. That's where some of these group aficionados start to cross a line is when they start suggesting that the developer should force other players to play the way the group players want to play. How would you feel if someone were to come here and post a half page about how they prefer to play solo so they should have all these incentives and bonuses that group players don't get so that they feel like solo is worthwhile...

No, right? No @#%^ing way. It's the same when people start demanding major bonuses for group play. Play in your groups because you like to play in groups. That's all you should need. For every person who likes to argue that group play requires all this extra planning and collaboration and yadda yadda and that's why they should get more, there are 3 retards who love group play because they can get carried.

I can't stand groups in XIV right now. I mean, I ran some atrocious WoW PUGs back in the day where I bailed a few minutes in because all the signs of imminent disaster were already right there in your face, but holy sh*t. Talk about clueless. And I don't give a rat's *** about new game learning curve yadda yadda wtf. There are some things you don't need 18 months with a goddam MMO to learn, especially if you're so happy to boast about how awesome you were in previous MMOs. Groups in XIV are a cluster @#%^. Consistently. Persistently. Crap.

And what that means is that when I finally get around to spending some time on a combat class, the last thing I'm thinking about doing is joining a group. And as I finish off my sub-classes for my gladiator and start to lean more towards a tanking sort of shenanigan, I'm going to pay close attention to who is doing what, find that rare handful of players who has a clue, and stick to them like glue.

Notice something there? I'm building a tank. Obviously I have an interest in group play. But what I don't want is a scenario where wasting time in a crap group seems like a better alternative than going out to solo because the game is tuned so poorly that even a crappy group can outpace a competent solo player. At no time should mediocrity outpace excellence. Just being in a group scraping by at a dismal level of accomplishment should never produce faster progression than skilled solo play, but that's exactly the kind of situation you create when you try to pile on all these benefits to group play that reward people for simply accepting an invite and gang beating mobs where success is defined by sheer numbers instead of actual skill.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 1:38am by Aurelius
#24 Nov 24 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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I like the idea of being rewarded for killing more enemies faster, as it should be.

For one, nuking is going to be encouraged rather than discouraged - so that's great. And now Archers are your friend again!

IMO, this is exactly what was needed.

PS:
SP chains coming next right? I found EXP chains to be highly entertaining and gave a good flow to long parties.

EXP Chains helped define stopping/resting points and also provided some (Excitement!).
#25 Nov 24 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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they also mentioned that sp gain will be higher and required sp per rank for 10-31 will be lowered. all in all, gonna be easier to rank up imo so i don't think ppl should care if they are getting 300+ sp per fight as long as it becomes easier to lvl. along with 50% more mobs and targeting. hopefully ppl pt more than they did. i see this all as a good thing. its a lot more complex then just 'i want 300+sp per mob'
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#26 Nov 24 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
One approach produces a game that satisfies solo players and those who like to group.


I disagree. Why? Because

Quote:
If there's tons of solo content and tons of group content and you're having a hard time finding a group, that tells you something.

Either the developers haven't offered enough incentive for groups


is in conflict with the former statement. There is no "satisfying both". One group is going to get the short stick, and that group is not going to stick around.

More importantly, you are talking in a utopistic sense of "how things could be if X, Y, Z" and in my opinion it is not possible to achieve.

Granted, "forced" grouping is an ancient concept and has not been used in ages even in XI. "Forced" grouping, from where I stand, does not mean "you can never solo"- it means "soloing is worse than grouping, yet possible".

If there's a misunderstanding, I apologize- but I do not believe that you can satisfy both demographics. That, or you ruin the game for both.
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#27 Nov 24 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:


Granted, "forced" grouping is an ancient concept and has not been used in ages even in XI. "Forced" grouping, from where I stand, does not mean "you can never solo"- it means "soloing is worse than grouping, yet possible".


this is all i'd ask for. games where solo content is equally beneficial as grouping, no one parties, everyone just grinds to max. i like to solo if i am low on time or solo while waiting for party so i don't end up just sitting there waiting for someone to invite me. i don't think that the difference should be huge but enough
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#28 Nov 24 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:


Granted, "forced" grouping is an ancient concept and has not been used in ages even in XI. "Forced" grouping, from where I stand, does not mean "you can never solo"- it means "soloing is worse than grouping, yet possible".


this is all i'd ask for. games where solo content is equally beneficial as grouping, no one parties, everyone just grinds to max. i like to solo if i am low on time or solo while waiting for party so i don't end up just sitting there waiting for someone to invite me. i don't think that the difference should be huge but enough


I'm one of the peeople theweenie described... being someone who much of the time, simply can't group because of irl demands. I agree with what others have said. It's fine for there to be incentives to group, it just shouldn't be so geared to grouping that either grouping nets you max level in no time, or it takes forever to solo.

For me, a good ratio is 80 solo exp for every 100 group exp. I think that maintains a good rate of soloing while still making grouping an incentive.

I am on the fence as to whether grouping *should* be encouraged or not. I've played the games like WoW, and when grouping doesn't happen at all, there's not really much of a sense of a community beyond your own guild. I always liked that about final fantasy xi, even after I became mostly a solo player. I found the soloing rates in FFXIV half decent for the PUP class I played. I think if they could make it so that all classes could solo at a decent rate, but still make a definite bonus for grouping, then it would satisfy most people.

It's hard to get a system that perfectly satisfies both sides, in fact I'd agree with the guy who said it's near impossible, because I've never seen it happen on any MUD or MMORPG since I started with these things in 1995. Always one is better than the other.

Grouping just because you want to isn't enough. It's enough for the individuals, but it's not enough for the game's community. If people aren't encouraged to put their foot out there and meet others, it often just won't happen, just because of human nature... and then we end up with a community along the lines WoW... which I certainly don't want to see. Not that there aren't nice people in WoW, but it's pretty much just you and your LS.

Unfortunately that's what we're seeing now in FFXIV, for the most part, so I think making grouping more viable is a really good thing, just don't do it at the expense of us solo players. There can't be a perfect balance, but there can be a happy medium.
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#29tylerbee, Posted: Nov 24 2010 at 12:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I respect all your opinions but my stance is that MMOs aren't for solo'ing, they're for grouping.
#30 Nov 24 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I think that grinding XP (or SP in this case) should be soloable. I hate that I have to (or in this case, am "strongly encouraged") find people to do what I basically consider errands or chores. Let me level up and get all my fancy abilities by myself, then I'll group up to use them to achieve real goals. Grouping is just too full of inefficiencies for me when it comes to pure XP grinding, it takes time to find people, to wait for them to travel to you, waiting while they afk, and it all adds up to say an hour for every 3-4 hour session I play.
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#31 Nov 24 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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It seems the design goal of the game is a timed incentive for both. This seems to be the idea behind Leves, which may still be molded to fit both solo and partying.

I expect the end result will be high solo bonuses for a certain amount of time, which then peter out. Perhaps they will add something similar to incentivize partying for a set time.

Then, each time you log in you will be encouraged to solo for awhile and party for awhile. And then those incentives dissipate in time.

It's certainly challenging to create a system such as this and we are witnessing the trial and error of full scale implementation.

Any other ideas worth mentioning from a game that fairly balanced group and solo play?
#32 Nov 24 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have any expectations for that system, i just wanna get my around 250 SP for one killed mob, and sometimed 300 or more ^^"
#33 Nov 24 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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ill be happy if we get half the EXP as SP ... like 100 SP/200 exp per kill

i always follow the exp/hour style when i grind
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#34Siulang, Posted: Nov 24 2010 at 2:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The Solo vs Group play thing reminds me the good old days in EQ1.
#35 Nov 24 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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tylerbee wrote:
I'm not worried if you "don't have time to group" or "have higher priorities, so grouping isn't an option" or "like to play alone but chat to your friends". Those are all signs you shouldn't be playing MMOs as your genre of choice.
Or, those are signs that not every person in the world leads the same life with the same preference of gameplay and with the same amount of free time.

Also, SE disagrees with your stance:

"We are developing in-depth introductory tutorials for new players. We are also designing the game while keeping in mind those users who enjoy playing solo, as well as those who can only log in for short periods of time. There will also be plenty of content for newcomers."

tylerbee wrote:
No rewards for grouping = no grouping. Then we see happen to this game what happened to World of Warcraft - everyone solos to cap in an "MMO" because they made the game more "accessible" for people with little time to play, those type of people who should be playing other genres than MMO in my opinion.
Making a game solo-friendly doesn't mean no one will group.

Contrary to popular belief there are benefits to grouping up in WoW. It allows you to kill mobs faster, which completes quests faster, which makes leveling up faster since your XP comes from quests, not from grinding mobs. Plus you could complete tougher quests earlier.

When I played WoW, I played it with my sister, and a RL friend. We grouped up and all did the same quests at the same time. Could we have soloed? Absolutely. But we grouped up because we liked to play together.

That is the kind of situation which Aurelius was talking about, where players group because grouping is fun. Not because its necessary to advance.

I actually socialize more when soloing in XIV because on one even talks in groups. That's the norm' for MMO PUGs (pick-up-groups, not Pugilists). Players join a group because they have to, not because they want to. What they want is XP and loot, the group is just the means through which they can get it. At least when I'm soloing I can go at my own pace and chat with people in my LS or on my friendslist.

tylerbee wrote:
Keep on trucking SE and if you lose some players because they're unable to solo XP as efficiently as a group does then they didn't belong here in the first place.
Why do you consider yourself an authority on who should be playing what genre?

I've yet to see a single player say that solo SP should be the same as group SP. Grouping allows you to kill faster, which will result in faster gains than a solo player could get. What solo players have been saying is that soloing should be an viable option. Currently, that is not the case. Right now you gain pathetic amounts of SP from mobs when soloing beyond rank 20, even when the mob is orange/red. Considering SE themself has said that they want the game to be solo-friendly, you can expect the current broken solo SP will be fixed.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 4:18pm by theweenie
#36 Nov 24 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the changes going forward are good, if not great for my personal taste in games. I do think there has been some good arguments/debates. I liked reading Aurelius' posts as well as others. I think:

Group play should always outpace solo play. Anytime you combine the time spent by multiple people into one focused effort, the party should be rewarded higher than a solo effort. I also think the increased sp per kill amount is going to bolster party play. I think this change helps people lvl at a more consistent rate than the healer getting 100 sp while the rest of the party gets 500 sp and outpaces the healer. I think that there is a way to balance solo vs. party play, but it would not be as easy as everyone would hope or sneer at.

Single play has to offer benefits to being self sufficient. A player in FFXIV that takes the time to embrace the armory system and mold their character into a soloing machine should also be rewarded as such. There should be some perks, in my opinion. Although the sp gain sounds like it will be much lower now per kill, reduce the rate of fatigue for solo play or implement a chain sp gain, like FFXI. While in party play, the decrease in melee class durability is more focused on the weapons, since they are getting hit less and primarily attacking. Maybe in solo play reduce the rate of durability loss since they are attacking and defending.

I am looking forward to the sp change, even though I solo virtually everything, I do on occasion duo with my glad and my gf's archer. I think some people have unrealistic ideas about how the sp gain will affect party/solo play, but until we experience the change, all we can do is speculate. I am happy for the change, popular or not.

On note, I do agree with Aurelius' statementn about mediocrity should not be better than excellence when comparing a crappy party vs. a skilled soloist. However, unless you can shape your solo class into an amazing jack-of-all-trades-of-surviving that is capable of taking on mobs that rival the party dynamics, I don't see them as being comparable. Maybe, crappy pt. vs skill pt. and crappy soloist vs skilled soloist. I do think excellence should be rewarded though, instead of having bumbling players time-grind through mobs instead of efficiently dispatching them with team dynamics. However, sadly, Aurelius, I do think that idiocricy and diligence are outpacing skill and tactfulness. We will have to trust SE yet again for the final outcome.

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*None of my post is meant to anger or insult, simply my opinion. Sorry if you diagree, congrats if you do agree, just my personal insight on the matter*
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#37 Nov 24 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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SkyeAyatari wrote:


On note, I do agree with Aurelius' statementn about mediocrity should not be better than excellence when comparing a crappy party vs. a skilled soloist. However, unless you can shape your solo class into an amazing jack-of-all-trades-of-surviving that is capable of taking on mobs that rival the party dynamics, I don't see them as being comparable. Maybe, crappy pt. vs skill pt. and crappy soloist vs skilled soloist. I do think excellence should be rewarded though, instead of having bumbling players time-grind through mobs instead of efficiently dispatching them with team dynamics. However, sadly, Aurelius, I do think that idiocricy and diligence are outpacing skill and tactfulness. We will have to trust SE yet again for the final outcome.



This is where FFXI excelled but only after a few years of tweaking. Groups became efficient and "skilled" at chaining EXP (another incentive) and soloists really had to be skilled to milk out EXP. Thought not all jobs could solo at least until DNC and BLU were created you had to be decent at DRG, for example, to solo for EXP effectively. The downside with both involving skill was that it was laborious and time consuming.

Granted FFXI's system was far from perfect but it took skill to both solo and to form and do well in a group.

However unrealistic, I too would like to see groups and soloing to be viable AND involve skill, but I guess if you pulled my arm I'd rather see one involve skill, rather than both become easy fests.
#38 Nov 24 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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theweenie wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
I'm not worried if you "don't have time to group" or "have higher priorities, so grouping isn't an option" or "like to play alone but chat to your friends". Those are all signs you shouldn't be playing MMOs as your genre of choice.
Or, those are signs that not every person in the world leads the same life with the same preference of gameplay and with the same amount of free time.

Also, SE disagrees with your stance:

"We are developing in-depth introductory tutorials for new players. We are also designing the game while keeping in mind those users who enjoy playing solo, as well as those who can only log in for short periods of time. There will also be plenty of content for newcomers."

tylerbee wrote:
No rewards for grouping = no grouping. Then we see happen to this game what happened to World of Warcraft - everyone solos to cap in an "MMO" because they made the game more "accessible" for people with little time to play, those type of people who should be playing other genres than MMO in my opinion.
Making a game solo-friendly doesn't mean no one will group.

Contrary to popular belief there are benefits to grouping up in WoW. It allows you to kill mobs faster, which completes quests faster, which makes leveling up faster since your XP comes from quests, not from grinding mobs. Plus you could complete tougher quests earlier.

When I played WoW, I played it with my sister, and a RL friend. We grouped up and all did the same quests at the same time. Could we have soloed? Absolutely. But we grouped up because we liked to play together.

That is the kind of situation which Aurelius was talking about, where players group because grouping is fun. Not because its necessary to advance.

I actually socialize more when soloing in XIV because on one even talks in groups. That's the norm' for MMO PUGs (pick-up-groups, not Pugilists). Players join a group because they have to, not because they want to. What they want is XP and loot, the group is just the means through which they can get it. At least when I'm soloing I can go at my own pace and chat with people in my LS or on my friendslist.

tylerbee wrote:
Keep on trucking SE and if you lose some players because they're unable to solo XP as efficiently as a group does then they didn't belong here in the first place.
Why do you consider yourself an authority on who should be playing what genre?

I've yet to see a single player say that solo SP should be the same as group SP. Grouping allows you to kill faster, which will result in faster gains than a solo player could get. What solo players have been saying is that soloing should be an viable option. Currently, that is not the case. Right now you gain pathetic amounts of SP from mobs when soloing beyond rank 20, even when the mob is orange/red. Considering SE themself has said that they want the game to be solo-friendly, you can expect the current broken solo SP will be fixed.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 4:18pm by theweenie


Thats cool man, I was just sharing my opinion, which I stand by.

You don't have to agree with me. I'm not going to argue with what you think is correct even though I have some great counter-points because it'd ultimately be a waste of time. We both have our opinions on what an MMO should be and we've shared them accordingly.

All i'm saying is that MMOs should be focused on group play and reward it. Don't you agree a massively multiplayer online game should be focusing on socializing and doing things together instead of solo? I never once said you should not be able to solo at all, but if all you are doing is logging on to solo then that is one big fat failure of an MMO.

If we can't agree on at least that much then what an MMO is these days is lost on me, send me back to EQ days.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 6:16pm by tylerbee
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#39 Nov 24 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I expect to gain sp after every fight and for the rates to be more even across classes, beyond that, who knows. Honestly, that's all that matters to me though. Currently, it feels like i'm being penalized because my main isn't pug.
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#40 Nov 24 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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All I want is a set amount of SP after each mob. And hopefully not divided between Sword+Shield...

And besides that I expect that PTs are more about being "effective" after the update instead of just gather together 15ppl and spam **** on a mob til it dies. For example Black Efts are pretty stupid to lvl on IMO...it takes forever to kill them and you don't even get Skill cap all the time. I'm avergaing between 300-400. But as Gladiator Skill PTs are worst toi get out of all classes anyway. If we can't block, we usually don't reach the cap at all...and since all Gladiators in a PT spam Provoke so do Pugilists spam Taunt...its just stupid.

All I want that the PT system is more based on "effectiveness" and steady kills(not taking 2min) and giving a fair amount of SP afterwards.

Other then that I just hope that SP Gain in Regional Leves will be adjusted, since after reaching Rank 25 Guildleves are just completely useless, other then getting Gil. A nice "solo" SP availability would be nice too. It's not like im grinding the whole time to get me a Rank, I would like to get decent SP as well, when im just farming Shards or w/e.

But in the end no matter what it will be...I'm gonna be happy as long as it gets better then now, cause right now it sucks.
#41 Nov 24 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
One approach produces a game that satisfies solo players and those who like to group.


I disagree. Why? Because

Quote:
If there's tons of solo content and tons of group content and you're having a hard time finding a group, that tells you something.

Either the developers haven't offered enough incentive for groups


is in conflict with the former statement. There is no "satisfying both". One group is going to get the short stick, and that group is not going to stick around.

More importantly, you are talking in a utopistic sense of "how things could be if X, Y, Z" and in my opinion it is not possible to achieve.


I don't really care what you think is or isn't possible. The bottom line is that if you like to group and you can't find people to group with, you're in the minority. Period. If everyone wants to group so badly, why does the developer need to tune the game to make solo play tedious, painful, and inordinately slow in terms of progression?
#42 Nov 24 2010 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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Siulang wrote:
The Solo vs Group play thing reminds me the good old days in EQ1.

At first , everyone thought it is a forced group play 'cause solo gives crappy exp. However, in the later stage, ppl realized that if you are skillful enough, some classes soloing can gain way more exp than grouping.

I think the perfect model is. Unskillful players get poor exp fm solo, Group players get decent exp, Skillful players solo get excellent exp (for all classes).


LOLZ ... my friend reminded me recently of how near the endgame of EQ:OA EVERYONE knew where I was ALL the time... out in the desert grinding tarantulas or something (I seem to recall mummies too, been sooo long).

Back then to me, it was a matter of efficiency:
Option 1: Solo: log on, immediately hit desert, immediately start battling anything I could see until bedtime, log off.
Option 2: Group: log on, begin "Shadowknight lvl XX, LFG!", maybe find a couple people in the first hour, spend next two hours looking for person to fill whatever hole existed in group, deal with "BRB"s, "AFK a sec"s, etc., head to agreed upon camp, wait for other groups at camp to clear out, deal with "Sry G2G"s, the first round of deaths and the first round of "you guys suck I'm out"-type ... gentlemen... and then trying to fill the group holes that just opened because of that, then get in (maybe) one or two hours of good xping until bedtime, log off.

Yeah... even at severely reduced XP/hr rates, the number of actual hours spent XPing as opposed to other BS favored solo heavily.

Never have had a problem filling in time between groups with solo play... even a little XP is better than no XP (and getting that no XP while doing absolutely nothing but sitting in town LFG). Actually soloing is a good way to really get a feel for what you are capable of, you make your mistakes on your own time so that when you group up you have already learned some valuable lessons, like learning how to pay attention to the mob you are fighting AND keep an eye out for adds (when there is NOBODY to back you up and cover for you, adds are pretty much always fatal... you learn quick)... and your friends can always send you a tell if they are starting up a party.
#43 Nov 24 2010 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's pretty simple. Successful MMOs have strong solo content and progression. Money talks. SE can implement desirable group content for those who like to group; NMs, Dungeons, Missions, etc. Ranking up with others should just be fun and a way to meet new people (who in turn can tag along for the group content!), it doesn't have to be the ideal way to level. If they continue to make soloing boring and dreadful, this game will just end up dead even after PS3 release.

If they decide to make groups the best way to level, well then, they'll need to add a level sync feature sooner than later. If not, people will just quit because "they can't find a group within their level range."
#44 Nov 24 2010 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
I play an MMO to , you know, play and socialize with other people, not grind solo.


Haha yea me too. I get real bored playing by myself. People expect to solo all the way to max just like they did in WOW. This is Final Fantasy we're talking about.
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#45 Nov 24 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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tylerbee wrote:
I respect all your opinions but my stance is that MMOs aren't for solo'ing, they're for grouping.


That's all well and good, but everyone who says that always avoids the most relevant question:

If you play for the grouping, why do you need to get more than the solo player?

Nobody ever answers that with any kind of argument that holds water. The best anyone has ever come up with is a sob story about how hard it is to find a group and how much of a risk they're taking putting their success in the hands of others and blah blah blah...in other words, rational justifications.

MMO stands for massively multiplayer online. If you've got a couple of thousand people online, I'd say that covers the "massively" part. It also covers the multiplayer, since you're sharing a persistent virtual world with those people. And online, well, that's pretty much a given.

But what happens is someone like you comes along and makes ridiculous statements to the effect that "multiplayer" by default means "group" and if you don't want to group, MMOs are not the genre for you.

Excuse you?

I paid for the retail box just like you. And if SE ever gets around to charging for monthly subscriptions, if I'm playing it's because I paid my monthly sub, just like you. And when the developer says they're aiming to make the game accessible by solo players and casual friendly and someone like you comes along and says solo players don't belong, you find yourself in the unfortunate position of holding an opinion directly to the contrary of what the devs have said they envision for the game.

Multiplayer can mean any number of things. It means I can chat with people in game. It means I can exchange things earned through playing the game with other people. It means the world is full of other players running around hear and there in a way that adds a sense of life to the game that's awfully hard to duplicate in a standalone offering. And it can mean that you group together with other people to fight and take on enemies that would be impossible to kill solo.

Can mean. Not "does mean," not "requires". Can.

Quote:
No rewards for grouping = no grouping. Then we see happen to this game what happened to World of Warcraft - everyone solos to cap in an "MMO" because they made the game more "accessible" for people with little time to play, those type of people who should be playing other genres than MMO in my opinion.


Bullsh*t. As soon as Blizzard added the dungeon finder feature, people were running dungeons like crazy through all level ranges.

Quote:
I don't think SE will let that solo-orientated play happen with how community based they've made their game, and I appreciate that.


Some community. "You can do what you want as long as we approve, even if you're not hurting anyone."


Edited, Nov 24th 2010 7:32pm by Aurelius
#46 Nov 24 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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I couldn't give a rat *** if group play gives more xp or solo gives more xp. But grouping should me MORE fun than soloing. I played in group a few times...and I was bored out of my fragging mind. I lasted barely 30 mins before I had to tell the group I can keep going any longer.
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#47 Nov 24 2010 at 10:11 PM Rating: Default
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I was in a party and the PLD was so annal. He had to buff up then provoke befor we could att it....If anyone attacked a mob before he did he would get all ****** It was so so slow when he left we doubled our kill rate. I was so happy when he left.
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#48 Nov 24 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Frebaut wrote:
I was in a party and the PLD was so annal. He had to buff up then provoke befor we could att it....If anyone attacked a mob before he did he would get all ****** It was so so slow when he left we doubled our kill rate. I was so happy when he left.


Sorry , I dont get it. What PLD ?
#49 Nov 24 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm guessing party leader, because otherwise he should have been booted and replaced.
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#50 Nov 24 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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Correctly me If I'm wrong, but there seems to be peeps keep saying solo play will discourage PT play.

Let me ask a very simple question.

If a solo guy kills a mob in 30sec and get 100sp

VS

A PT kills the same mob in less the 15secs and get 100sp

Which will you want to be in?

Peeps are forgotten to take time to finish off a mob into consideration.
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#51 Nov 24 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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Since you're so keen for a debate, i'll answer some of your questions. You may or may not agree and that is fine, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Without further ado...

Aurelius wrote:
That's all well and good, but everyone who says that always avoids the most relevant question:

If you play for the grouping, why do you need to get more than the solo player?


If you play for grouping, you're playing with the MMO spirit and what MMOs were created to do - have people playing together. MMOs were always about grouping up and adventuring together, before WoW came along. Rewards should be doled out to those who understand what a MMO really is and don't log on to solo their way to cap. Talk to your friends on MSN and play Dragon Age or something if that is your intention.

Another reason is because incentives are needed so people don't fall into the solo attitude. If you're not rewarded with anything outside of the social aspect, alot of players will forsake it which makes finding groups harder and a pain in the ***. This isn't something I want, World of Warcraft did it and the game suffered, but i'll talk about that later.

Aurelius wrote:
Nobody ever answers that with any kind of argument that holds water. The best anyone has ever come up with is a sob story about how hard it is to find a group and how much of a risk they're taking putting their success in the hands of others and blah blah blah...in other words, rational justifications.


It holds plenty of water. If you'd played EQ, FFXI (before solo got popular) and a variety of other old school MMOS you'd understand how fun proper grouping can be. You'd understand that it is in your best interest to build on a community and grow together, not alone and just "chatting". My apologies if you've been around that long, but I truely don't see how anyone who has could find focusing on solo'ing advantageous.

Aurelius wrote:
MMO stands for massively multiplayer online. If you've got a couple of thousand people online, I'd say that covers the "massively" part. It also covers the multiplayer, since you're sharing a persistent virtual world with those people. And online, well, that's pretty much a given.


It isn't a literal meaning. Anyone who is worth their weight and has been with the MMO scene for a long time really understands what an MMO is. An MMO is a game where many players come to get together, socialize and kill monsters. Learn about each other, run into people and strike up friendships in the game. Play in pug groups and get to know people over the course of a few hours. It isn't a place for "Joe Solo" to log on and chat to his friends while he plays the game all by himself. You have Facebook and single player MMOs for that, or crafting and gathering.

Aurelius wrote:
But what happens is someone like you comes along and makes ridiculous statements to the effect that "multiplayer" by default means "group" and if you don't want to group, MMOs are not the genre for you.


I believe a true MMO involves heavy focus on grouping and I believe that if you don't enjoy that then MMOs aren't the genre for you, maybe something like WoW would be more suited (a solo game, not a true MMO).

Aurelius wrote:
I paid for the retail box just like you. And if SE ever gets around to charging for monthly subscriptions, if I'm playing it's because I paid my monthly sub, just like you. And when the developer says they're aiming to make the game accessible by solo players and casual friendly and someone like you comes along and says solo players don't belong, you find yourself in the unfortunate position of holding an opinion directly to the contrary of what the devs have said they envision for the game.


I think its quite clear the game isn't very friendly for solo players. If I was SE i'd be telling people my game is solo friendly too, even if it wasn't, to secure more box sales and subscriptions. It isn't unheard of for companies to spin PR, in fact it happens daily. If it ever does become too solo focused though, i'll simply leave to a proper MMO.

Aurelius wrote:
Multiplayer can mean any number of things. It means I can chat with people in game. It means I can exchange things earned through playing the game with other people. It means the world is full of other players running around hear and there in a way that adds a sense of life to the game that's awfully hard to duplicate in a standalone offering. And it can mean that you group together with other people to fight and take on enemies that would be impossible to kill solo.


These are all great features of an MMO and I agree with you, however at the core and heart of all great MMOs should be compelling group content. Focusing on single player content makes the game lifeless and boring. Unfortunately putting solo'ers on the same level as people who group constantly changes game mechanics in such a detrimental way it ruins the group game. I really don't believe you can have the best of both worlds otherwise solo'ing becomes far too attractive and the prefered way to do everything (See WoW)

Aurelius wrote:
Bullsh*t. As soon as Blizzard added the dungeon finder feature, people were running dungeons like crazy through all level ranges.


We have a different definition of grouping and i'll try to clarify it for you. WoW dungeon finder =/= grouping. Click a button, join a "group", never touch the chat and power through a 20 minute experience. That isn't true MMO grouping. True MMO grouping is messaging people on your friends list or starting a pug, constructing a party and shooting the **** while you wait for other people to join. Making your way out to a location to get started, asking group members if they need anything while you're in town, letting people know what crafting classes you have so you can help them out when you meet, talking about strategy and group synergy before you get started, talking about which mobs to fight, possibly changing plans of XP gains aren't high enough, talking to others about how your day was then rinse and repeating the next day or whenever. That is my definition of grouping.

Aurelius wrote:
Some community. "You can do what you want as long as we approve, even if you're not hurting anyone.


All I can say mate is that if you'd been around as long as I had and seen how compelling grouping and forming these communities and friendships can be you might understand where i'm coming from.

However, I am confident that in your reply you'll still be adamant that having a solo option is the best way to go about things so I won't trouble you any longer.

Ultimately I think FFXIV is perfect for forced grouping. Do your crafting or your gathering while you feel like being solo, then get together in a group if you feel like fighting. Everybody wins.

PS: This post was not intended to debunk or argue with your reasons. This is my opinion, that is yours. Neither of us are wrong we just have our own preferences and vision for what an MMO should be.
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