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Did they somehow programmed SP and EXP mixed up? Follow

#1 Nov 25 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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Ok long story short. Rank 20 Marauder Physical 40

Before patch on Green and Yellow Sea puks, solo.

SP: 0 - 325
Exp 60 - 80

After patch

SP: 60 - 80
Exp: 150 - 250

Is it me or something is not right here?
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#2 Nov 25 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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I'm experiencing the same thing.

Its a little discouraging. They lowered the SP curve, yay, but then they reduced SP gain even more so that the net needed to rank is actually greater now >.<

Sorta weird. But solo isn't the best test I guess.
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#3 Nov 25 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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After grinding solo for about 30 minutes or so I can say that I am definitely gaining SP faster than before, 23 Con. I focus on killing the mobs as fast as possible.
#4 Nov 25 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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rikkuotaku wrote:
I'm experiencing the same thing.

Its a little discouraging. They lowered the SP curve, yay, but then they reduced SP gain even more so that the net needed to rank is actually greater now >.<

Sorta weird. But solo isn't the best test I guess.


Before we start on the solo part, We need to know, did they programmed it wrongly into the patch.

It does not really make sense, if the lower the SP curve and ***** ppl up on the SP gain.
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#5 Nov 25 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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from what i understand the sp is now a fraction of the exp total. no acual skill ups now.
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#6 Nov 25 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Adrenry wrote:
After grinding solo for about 30 minutes or so I can say that I am definitely gaining SP faster than before, 23 Con. I focus on killing the mobs as fast as possible.


Try playing a Mar or other jobs and see if there a difference.

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#7 Nov 25 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

It does not really make sense, if the lower the SP curve and ***** ppl up on the SP gain.



yeah except once everyone realizes that they can get insane SP by gathering the right mobs and spamming AOE TP moves/spells on them, we'll see a whole new complaint thread about how people are grinding levels too fast.

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 9:33pm by Llester
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#8 Nov 25 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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valeforheya1984 wrote:
from what i understand the sp is now a fraction of the exp total. no acual skill ups now.


Wait, so you are telling me that SP is giving base on EXP gain on mobs.

The problem is, I'm Physical Rank 40 now, And I don;t get as much EXP per mob vs a Physical rank 20 guy. Unless I'm totally wrong on this part.
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#9 Nov 25 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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Adrenry wrote:
I focus on killing the mobs as fast as possible.


Welcome to the new FFXIV. No longer will we be trying to lengthen the fight time as long as possible. Now we shall slay beasts with wild abandon, as quickly as possible.

14 just become alot more like 11. Now if we could get some chains going...
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#10 Nov 25 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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The SP change still seems to be a benefit from what I've seen.

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 9:39pm by Akheron
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#11 Nov 25 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Humster wrote:
rikkuotaku wrote:
I'm experiencing the same thing.

Its a little discouraging. They lowered the SP curve, yay, but then they reduced SP gain even more so that the net needed to rank is actually greater now >.<

Sorta weird. But solo isn't the best test I guess.


Before we start on the solo part, We need to know, did they programmed it wrongly into the patch.

It does not really make sense, if the lower the SP curve and ***** ppl up on the SP gain.


No, they didn't.

I just killed a dodo (blue) with my Gladiator at rank 18. I got 135 sword skill points, 135 shield skill points, and 338 xp.

What they've done is made it so that xp works the same for combat classes as it does for crafters...the xp you earn is based on your rank, not your physical level.

I'm physical level 50. I haven't earned xp from a mob kill since about the second week after CE launched because I raised my physical level so quickly through crafting. For me to get 300+ XP from a mob kill is unheard of before today.
#12 Nov 25 2010 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Humster wrote:
rikkuotaku wrote:
I'm experiencing the same thing.

Its a little discouraging. They lowered the SP curve, yay, but then they reduced SP gain even more so that the net needed to rank is actually greater now >.<

Sorta weird. But solo isn't the best test I guess.


Before we start on the solo part, We need to know, did they programmed it wrongly into the patch.

It does not really make sense, if the lower the SP curve and ***** ppl up on the SP gain.


No, they didn't.

I just killed a dodo (blue) with my Gladiator at rank 18. I got 135 sword skill points, 135 shield skill points, and 338 xp.

What they've done is made it so that xp works the same for combat classes as it does for crafters...the xp you earn is based on your rank, not your physical level.

I'm physical level 50. I haven't earned xp from a mob kill since about the second week after CE launched because I raised my physical level so quickly through crafting. For me to get 300+ XP from a mob kill is unheard of before today.


Well, I smack around Green and Yellow Sea Puks and get max 80sp. You did a Blue dodo and get 135 SP ? I'm seriously confused now.
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#13 Nov 25 2010 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Humster wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Humster wrote:
rikkuotaku wrote:
I'm experiencing the same thing.

Its a little discouraging. They lowered the SP curve, yay, but then they reduced SP gain even more so that the net needed to rank is actually greater now >.<

Sorta weird. But solo isn't the best test I guess.


Before we start on the solo part, We need to know, did they programmed it wrongly into the patch.

It does not really make sense, if the lower the SP curve and ***** ppl up on the SP gain.


No, they didn't.

I just killed a dodo (blue) with my Gladiator at rank 18. I got 135 sword skill points, 135 shield skill points, and 338 xp.

What they've done is made it so that xp works the same for combat classes as it does for crafters...the xp you earn is based on your rank, not your physical level.

I'm physical level 50. I haven't earned xp from a mob kill since about the second week after CE launched because I raised my physical level so quickly through crafting. For me to get 300+ XP from a mob kill is unheard of before today.


Well, I smack around Green and Yellow Sea Puks and get max 80sp. You did a Blue dodo and get 135 SP ? I'm seriously confused now.


Your question was whether or not they reversed SP and XP. Your question has been answered. Whether or not there is still a reduction in SP earned at/after rank 20 is not something I can comment on.
#14 Nov 25 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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I guess the increased EXP is the counter against the people who has been crying "Boohoo I don't craft so game punish me with low Physical Level".
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#15 Nov 25 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
Quote:

It does not really make sense, if the lower the SP curve and ***** ppl up on the SP gain.



yeah except once everyone realizes that they can get insane SP by gathering the right mobs and spamming AOE TP moves/spells on them, we'll see a whole new complaint thread about how people are grinding levels too fast.

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 9:33pm by Llester


Incorrect! You must directly be targeting a mob to recieve SP from it. For example, I just fought 2 coblyns at once. I AoE'd them to death. I recieved 77 sp for one, and 0 for the other. However, if you only partly kill it with AoE, you recieve partial sp for whatever damage % you did while targeting the mob.
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#16 Nov 25 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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oooo those rat bastards found a loophole!


you can still DAMAGE mobs you arent targetting though....then target each one for clean up after they're down to like 10% or w/e....hmm sort of sounds like a headache but i'd wager there are players alreaady working on it


edit: nvm just read the rest of your post ha. interesting. partial sp. hm. so that idea is out. probably for the best.



Edited, Nov 25th 2010 10:11pm by Llester
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#17 Nov 25 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Llester wrote:
Quote:

It does not really make sense, if the lower the SP curve and ***** ppl up on the SP gain.



yeah except once everyone realizes that they can get insane SP by gathering the right mobs and spamming AOE TP moves/spells on them, we'll see a whole new complaint thread about how people are grinding levels too fast.

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 9:33pm by Llester


Incorrect! You must directly be targeting a mob to recieve SP from it. For example, I just fought 2 coblyns at once. I AoE'd them to death. I recieved 77 sp for one, and 0 for the other. However, if you only partly kill it with AoE, you recieve partial sp for whatever damage % you did while targeting the mob.


Probably different because I was on a levequest, but I experienced something different. I was fighting about 4 Black Wolves or whatever theyre called on the Palemoon Faction leve. I used Circle Slash and killed 3 at once and got (same/full) EXP and SP for each one.
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#18 Nov 25 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
Party play just got a whole lot different though, according to early tests...

Figure this: Last night we had a decent sized party of 10-12, that wasn't in the 5 Rank range (31-42,) and we went over to Raptors. Me being a R31 Pug, I was getting anything from 0-400, with most SP gains being about 70-200. Our main Conjurer, who was R40, was consistently getting 450-500SP.

Come patch, our Conjurer formed up a small party and we went for Raptors again. This time around, however, I was getting 99-111SP regardless of actions, and our Conjurer was getting about 120-150SP. He tried again with a 5 level range smaller party, and got similar results.

During the test, we found out that even if you do nothing and move around with the group, you'll still get EXP/SP-AFK leveling is now a real prospect. This is even more so pronounced if you die in a party with two mobs - just staying there, or Returning and running back to the group before the two mobs die ensures you get EXP/SP.

The big party grinds on Efts, Raptors, might not work as well now, based on this new way of gaining SP based on 'difficulty' - Since it's now based on mob difficulty, a yellow mob for a single person will get that person more SP than if they were in a five person party and the mob was blue...

Leves, however, seem to be the major update, with some of my LS buddies telling me they were continually hitting 500SP on Leve Mobs...more needs to be tested and confirmed.

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 10:35pm by GuiltyBoomerang
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#19 Nov 25 2010 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Humster wrote:
Ok long story short. Rank 20 Marauder Physical 40

Before patch on Green and Yellow Sea puks, solo.

SP: 0 - 325
Exp 60 - 80

After patch

SP: 60 - 80
Exp: 150 - 250

Is it me or something is not right here?


OK, went and whack blue dodos for kicks, got an average 65 per kill

Green Sea puks average 70 per kill

Yellow Sea Puks average 80 per kill

So the average difference is only around 15-25 sp per kill.

This is just weird. Maybe I was expecting at least 100sp on green and 150sp++ on yellows and 200sp++ on reds. Damnit should have stick to expectations brings disappointment theory (>...>
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#20 Nov 25 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Just wanted to throw out my experience tested so far:

- 12 man PT, ranks 24-30
- Target: Yarzons in Mistbeard Cove (Rank 40-44)
- Why? Because according to SE, your SP is based on your rank in respect to the mobs level, therefore we thought killing more enemies in shorter duration = more SP

Result: 60-80 SP spread across the party, I was a CON and received both SP for CON & Shiled (72 SP equally).
- Then I had all but 6 people drop so we could test with less people.
Result: With 6 people, SP went up ~20 across the board, so now I was receiving 92 SP for CON and Shield

Next stop: Treespeak

- 12 man PT, ranks 24-30
- Target: Black Eft @ Treespeak (Rank 40-44)
- Why? Higher HP mob to see if would give more SP

Result: 170 SP give or take for entire party. Also, seemed Shell was not working as well, coupled with lower HP on tank due to VIT nerf, tank was getting killed much easier.

While I love this patch all over, partying seems to be not so great in large groups. I have a feeling it either a) favors smaller duo/trio groups or b) we don't have a clue how to optimize parties yet

Not sure how I feel about this yet...
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#21 Nov 25 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Whao it seems like well UI is better, ok, by gameplay is still weird?
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#22 Nov 25 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Adrenry wrote:
After grinding solo for about 30 minutes or so I can say that I am definitely gaining SP faster than before, 23 Con. I focus on killing the mobs as fast as possible.




Same here on R19 CON and shield points equal to SP. Loads more than before.
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#23 Nov 25 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Just wanted to throw out my experience tested so far:

- 12 man PT, ranks 24-30
- Target: Yarzons in Mistbeard Cove (Rank 40-44)
- Why? Because according to SE, your SP is based on your rank in respect to the mobs level, therefore we thought killing more enemies in shorter duration = more SP

Result: 60-80 SP spread across the party, I was a CON and received both SP for CON & Shiled (72 SP equally).
- Then I had all but 6 people drop so we could test with less people.
Result: With 6 people, SP went up ~20 across the board, so now I was receiving 92 SP for CON and Shield

Next stop: Treespeak

- 12 man PT, ranks 24-30
- Target: Black Eft @ Treespeak (Rank 40-44)
- Why? Higher HP mob to see if would give more SP

Result: 170 SP give or take for entire party. Also, seemed Shell was not working as well, coupled with lower HP on tank due to VIT nerf, tank was getting killed much easier.

While I love this patch all over, partying seems to be not so great in large groups. I have a feeling it either a) favors smaller duo/trio groups or b) we don't have a clue how to optimize parties yet

Not sure how I feel about this yet...


I don't want to comment too much about what I think "should" or "shouldn't" be, but it seems to me from the changes like SE is trying to discourage massive parties vs. massively over-ranked mobs. The only reason I can think of for them to "nerf" tank HP (everyone got hit the same way, but it's most important for tanks) is to make people think long and hard about how hard their tanks are going to get hit now versus a day ago. My gladiator lost about 30% of his HP in the deal (1300 down to just over 1k at rank 18).
#24 Nov 25 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Just wanted to throw out my experience tested so far:

- 12 man PT, ranks 24-30
- Target: Yarzons in Mistbeard Cove (Rank 40-44)
- Why? Because according to SE, your SP is based on your rank in respect to the mobs level, therefore we thought killing more enemies in shorter duration = more SP

Result: 60-80 SP spread across the party, I was a CON and received both SP for CON & Shiled (72 SP equally).
- Then I had all but 6 people drop so we could test with less people.
Result: With 6 people, SP went up ~20 across the board, so now I was receiving 92 SP for CON and Shield

Next stop: Treespeak

- 12 man PT, ranks 24-30
- Target: Black Eft @ Treespeak (Rank 40-44)
- Why? Higher HP mob to see if would give more SP

Result: 170 SP give or take for entire party. Also, seemed Shell was not working as well, coupled with lower HP on tank due to VIT nerf, tank was getting killed much easier.

While I love this patch all over, partying seems to be not so great in large groups. I have a feeling it either a) favors smaller duo/trio groups or b) we don't have a clue how to optimize parties yet

Not sure how I feel about this yet...


I don't want to comment too much about what I think "should" or "shouldn't" be, but it seems to me from the changes like SE is trying to discourage massive parties vs. massively over-ranked mobs. The only reason I can think of for them to "nerf" tank HP (everyone got hit the same way, but it's most important for tanks) is to make people think long and hard about how hard their tanks are going to get hit now versus a day ago. My gladiator lost about 30% of his HP in the deal (1300 down to just over 1k at rank 18).


I agree, but I'm struggling to make a connection on how we should group. I mean, I suspected the outcome on efts, but I also suspected to maybe get the same on Yarzons with a smaller group and burn through them, but that was fail too.

I'm confused...
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#25 Nov 25 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Humster wrote:

Damnit should have stick to expectations brings disappointment theory (>...>


That there's no theory, its proven fact!
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#26 Nov 25 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't test the SP so much cuss of lack of time, but i with my Rank 26 Marauder, get more SP now, than before, and i love it :3

PS: And i was Solo btw. ;)

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 11:02pm by EmiyaShirou
#27 Nov 25 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Quote:

I don't want to comment too much about what I think "should" or "shouldn't" be, but it seems to me from the changes like SE is trying to discourage massive parties vs. massively over-ranked mobs. The only reason I can think of for them to "nerf" tank HP (everyone got hit the same way, but it's most important for tanks) is to make people think long and hard about how hard their tanks are going to get hit now versus a day ago. My gladiator lost about 30% of his HP in the deal (1300 down to just over 1k at rank 18).


I agree, but I'm struggling to make a connection on how we should group. I mean, I suspected the outcome on efts, but I also suspected to maybe get the same on Yarzons with a smaller group and burn through them, but that was fail too.

I'm confused...


Just a thought, but gather 2-3 of your LS mates and run out and perform an experiment. Find some mobs that are green to you while solo. Kill solo and record SP. Find another green mob of the same type and once you have, invite one person to a party with you. Both of you kill that mob. Take note of SP Disband the party, find another green mob, invite 2 people to the party. Kill, repeat adding one person to the group each time. The reason I suggest disbanding is so that you're getting an accurate representation of the mob's rank between each fight and the best way to do that is to assess the mob while solo. Alternately, have the last person to be invite do the checking for mob rank on their own so you don't have to disband between each fight.

See if SP goes up or down as you add people.

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 8:58pm by Aurelius
#28 Nov 25 2010 at 10:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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On a mob by mob basis, you'll often be getting lower SP gains than what you could get before with the random SP system.

But overall, because you're getting consistent SP gains and can use your weaponskills to kill faster without hurting SP, you will now gain SP at a much faster rate.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head, Aurelius. This seems to be SE encouraging players to form smaller groups so they can kill mobs closer to their actual ranks. The old system of zerg a high mob using basic attacks wasn't fun at all. This will make smaller groups where the action isn't so intense, allowing players to actually take a breath and chat.

When big groups will come back into play is when the NMs come next month.
#29 Nov 25 2010 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
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EmiyaShirou wrote:
I didn't test the SP so much cuss of lack of time, but i with my Rank 26 Marauder, get more SP now, than before, and i love it :3

PS: And i was Solo btw. ;)

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 11:02pm by EmiyaShirou


Well I'm getting less. Seriously less per fight.

The only way I can get "more" is to beat up blue mobs. Which, will ***** up lower rank peeps, whom are trying to level on the same stuff I kill in under 15secs.

Now for me its simple, beat up green and yellows and get tons lower SP then before, VS ******** up other peeps leveling and play experience and get a load better SP. And the latter kinda sucks.

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 11:17pm by Humster
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#30 Nov 25 2010 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

I don't want to comment too much about what I think "should" or "shouldn't" be, but it seems to me from the changes like SE is trying to discourage massive parties vs. massively over-ranked mobs. The only reason I can think of for them to "nerf" tank HP (everyone got hit the same way, but it's most important for tanks) is to make people think long and hard about how hard their tanks are going to get hit now versus a day ago. My gladiator lost about 30% of his HP in the deal (1300 down to just over 1k at rank 18).


I agree, but I'm struggling to make a connection on how we should group. I mean, I suspected the outcome on efts, but I also suspected to maybe get the same on Yarzons with a smaller group and burn through them, but that was fail too.

I'm confused...


Just a thought, but gather 2-3 of your LS mates and run out and perform an experiment. Find some mobs that are green to you while solo. Kill solo and record SP. Find another green mob of the same type and once you have, invite one person to a party with you. Both of you kill that mob. Take note of SP Disband the party, find another green mob, invite 2 people to the party. Kill, repeat adding one person to the group each time. The reason I suggest disbanding is so that you're getting an accurate representation of the mob's rank between each fight and the best way to do that is to assess the mob while solo. Alternately, have the last person to be invite do the checking for mob rank on their own so you don't have to disband between each fight.

See if SP goes up or down as you add people.[/quote]

So, I just did this, to an extent. I am not very please, unfortunately.

I went to Cedarwood with a rank 25 Glad, to test this already on Fat Dodos

The mob to me, a rank 27 CON was yellow. Killing solo, I got 102 SP. Then I added a rank 25 Glad, mob was blue and I got 71sp and he got 77sp.

Then, for ***** and giggles, we added a rank 18 glad (within 10 level range for me to get "bonus", my sp dropped to 61, rank 25 glad got 67 sp, rank 18 glad got 80sp. The mob still was blue.

I'm thinking out loud here, but I can't seem to understand from this information what to do for parties. Aparently, the only way I am going to get MORE SP is to get the mob harder and harder against me, and if you add more people to drop the way the mob cons to you, you will in turn get LESS SP!

Like you Aurelius, I'm struggling to understand what this means for group play.


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#31 Nov 25 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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So currently how it seems.

Solo play can/may get better then before SP.

Party play totally weird now.

But 1 thing confirmed is, if we solo blue mobs around our level we can get good SP.
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#32 Nov 25 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:


See if SP goes up or down as you add people.


So, I just did this, to an extent. I am not very please, unfortunately.

I went to Cedarwood with a rank 25 Glad, to test this already on Fat Dodos

The mob to me, a rank 27 CON was yellow. Killing solo, I got 102 SP. Then I added a rank 25 Glad, mob was blue and I got 71sp and he got 77sp.

Then, for sh*ts and giggles, we added a rank 18 glad (within 10 level range for me to get "bonus", my sp dropped to 61, rank 25 glad got 67 sp, rank 18 glad got 80sp. The mob still was blue.

I'm thinking out loud here, but I can't seem to understand from this information what to do for parties. Aparently, the only way I am going to get MORE SP is to get the mob harder and harder against me, and if you add more people to drop the way the mob cons to you, you will in turn get LESS SP!

Like you Aurelius, I'm struggling to understand what this means for group play.


[/quote]

Additional details here - we had the 18 GLAD switch to his rank 4 CON. We did the puks, he got 168SP while we got 42-47 SP. Also, he died, we did two fights while he was dead on the ground, he got SP both times & subsequently dinged rank 5.

Congrats Boon.

Up yours SE! You did a lot of great things with this patch, but your SP system is 1000% worse IMO.
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#33 Nov 25 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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My EXP gain just went through the roof...right before the update I was soloing dark red wolfs in the black shroud getting a few hundred exp per fight. I just fought an orange one and got 850 exp at the end of the fight. sp was lower. I usually get 500 at the end, but this time it was about 350. Seems nice for solo since even the blue and green mobs are giving decent sp.
#34 Nov 25 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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WhtxKorean wrote:
My EXP gain just went through the roof...right before the update I was soloing dark red wolfs in the black shroud getting a few hundred exp per fight. I just fought an orange one and got 850 exp at the end of the fight. sp was lower. I usually get 500 at the end, but this time it was about 350. Seems nice for solo since even the blue and green mobs are giving decent sp.


I got less then a hundred sp fighting green and yellow mobs.... and less the 200 exp

What class you using?

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 11:44pm by Humster
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#35 Nov 25 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Default
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This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.
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#36 Nov 25 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.


For me, its good for soloing blue mobs, mobs which I can kill under 15 secs (dodos are blue to my rank20 Maruader, gets 55-76 per dodo). On the other hand, I'm taking away mobs for other peeps trying to rank up their jobs.

I'm seriously confused now, green and yellow mobs gives so little sp difference. Or they didn't complete their programming, resulting in some mobs been left out.
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#37 Nov 25 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.
The SP change is fine for both soloing and grouping. You just can't group in the exact same way as the prior system and expect the same results.

Get into a smaller group and roam around killing mobs a little higher than your ranks. Not 10-15 ranks higher than you like before. While you may not be getting 500SP every kill, you can use your weaponskills to kill faster, allowing you to rack up far more SP over time.
#38 Nov 25 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Default
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theweenie wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.
The SP change is fine for both soloing and grouping. You just can't group in the exact same way as the prior system and expect the same results.

Get into a smaller group and roam around killing mobs a little higher than your ranks. Not 10-15 ranks higher than you like before. While you may not be getting 500SP every kill, you can use your weaponskills to kill faster, allowing you to rack up far more SP over time.


If that were the case, then why was I only getting 70SP on a Yarzon? Sure, they don't take long to kill, but the SP is way down. What's the point in grouping? 4-5 people fighting mobs just over our level means they only going to con blue, which means your gonna get 60-70sp per mob. I don't care how fast you can kill them, I can kill the same thing solo so whats the point in grouping? Furthermore, that SP/hour will not be as good as what we had.

Way to take one crappy system and exhange it for another convoluted mess.
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#39 Nov 25 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Default
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On a 18 Glad off leve mobs getting 275 plus or minus off blues. I killed a blue walking around me during it and got 47... I was soloing earlier and getting 68-80 tops off yellows on a 22 Pug. Then went to 16 archer getting 100-160 off a green. I wish they would just make the exp stable like crafting . Blue 100 yellow 200 orange 300 red 400. Raise the exp requirement as high as they like but just the same amount of exp through out the game period.

Also I noticed I am taking tons more damage in every class. I have 75 stamina and getting hit like a wearing damp paper anyone else?
#40 Nov 25 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Twinlance wrote:
On a 18 Glad off leve mobs getting 275 plus or minus off blues. I killed a blue walking around me during it and got 47... I was soloing earlier and getting 68-80 tops off yellows on a 22 Pug. Then went to 16 archer getting 100-160 off a green. I wish they would just make the exp stable like crafting . Blue 100 yellow 200 orange 300 red 400. Raise the exp requirement as high as they like but just the same amount of exp through out the game period.

Also I noticed I am taking tons more damage in every class. I have 75 stamina and getting hit like a wearing damp paper anyone else?


They made leveling to rank 20 easier, which they did, its much easier. Anything above that, its weird out totally.

Yes I get hit hard, but since I wear heavy amour, at least that helps.

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 12:09am by Humster
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#41 Nov 25 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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theweenie wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.
The SP change is fine for both soloing and grouping. You just can't group in the exact same way as the prior system and expect the same results.

Get into a smaller group and roam around killing mobs a little higher than your ranks. Not 10-15 ranks higher than you like before. While you may not be getting 500SP every kill, you can use your weaponskills to kill faster, allowing you to rack up far more SP over time.


I think this is the solution.

I'm trying very hard to do my part not to let this devolve into another debate about how an MMO should work and how one should be played, but at the end of the day it all boils down to what you're doing and what you're expecting to be rewarded for.

Based on KnocturnalOne's experiment, they started out on a yellow mob (solo) that earned them ~100 SP. They then added someone to their group that was pretty close to their rank and illed another and got ~70 SP (30% less). And so to my way of thinking, you've got twice the people and hence should be able to kill each mob twice as fast + share a wider variety of buffs. So assuming you're in an area with a reasonable mob density, you kill twice as fast for 2/3 the xp per kill, and after two kills you're ahead of what you might have been in terms of SP as a solo player. Even if you're having to run a bit from one mob to the next you're still killing those mobs twice as fast, so for every minute you spend in combat you're actually earning more.

So then if you want to up the SP maybe you would find mobs a few ranks higher. Nothing major...theoretically high enough in rank to award more SP but low enough in rank that the kill rate scales appropriately so you still come out ahead.

And this is the part that, if anything I said so far didn't, is going to **** people off:

Working as intended.

I love seeing people in groups having fun. I love having fun in a group. I enjoy grouping (with the right people). But I don't expect to be rewarded for anything just because I'm in a group. I have to be accomplishing something in that group that I couldn't accomplish on my own if I want to feel entitled to say I should be getting more.

And now we continue testing and try to find a sweet spot...a reasonable balance between mob rank, time to kill, and SP gained per kill.

I'll admit, the only reason I didn't mock people in their 15 person groups killing mobs 20 ranks above them is because...they were killing mobs 20 ranks above them. Hard to find fault with that. But when they're milking a system that is tuned so that sloppy play + party size = 5-10 times the SP a solo player can hope to get, I'm sorry but it's just broken. When you're encouraging people to soak all kinds of damage so your healers can maximize on SP potential, it's just broken. There was just SO much wrong with the way group play was shaping up and I didn't want to be the dink who takes it out on the players because I have to give them credit for being innovative and working with what they were given.

What it sounds like to me now, however, is that we're back to a scenario where the skilled players with appropriate builds and gear will be rewarded because they'll be able to kill things faster and keep up a strong pace that will allow them to progress faster than a solo player. They'll be earning a faster rate of progression instead of having it handed to them simply because they accepted a group invite, and that, to me, is what MMOs are all about. It's not about being rewarded for being in a group, it's being rewarded for leveraging the advantages of a group to accomplish what a solo player can't accomplish.

Will SE tweak and tune the system going forward? Quite possibly. At least now we're at a baseline for consistency.
#42 Nov 25 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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What is wierd?

Party of 6 getting more sp than a party of 12 when killing the same mob?

Isn't that what really make sense?
#43 Nov 25 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
theweenie wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.
The SP change is fine for both soloing and grouping. You just can't group in the exact same way as the prior system and expect the same results.

Get into a smaller group and roam around killing mobs a little higher than your ranks. Not 10-15 ranks higher than you like before. While you may not be getting 500SP every kill, you can use your weaponskills to kill faster, allowing you to rack up far more SP over time.


I think this is the solution.

I'm trying very hard to do my part not to let this devolve into another debate about how an MMO should work and how one should be played, but at the end of the day it all boils down to what you're doing and what you're expecting to be rewarded for.

Based on KnocturnalOne's experiment, they started out on a yellow mob (solo) that earned them ~100 SP. They then added someone to their group that was pretty close to their rank and illed another and got ~70 SP (30% less). And so to my way of thinking, you've got twice the people and hence should be able to kill each mob twice as fast + share a wider variety of buffs. So assuming you're in an area with a reasonable mob density, you kill twice as fast for 2/3 the xp per kill, and after two kills you're ahead of what you might have been in terms of SP as a solo player. Even if you're having to run a bit from one mob to the next you're still killing those mobs twice as fast, so for every minute you spend in combat you're actually earning more.

So then if you want to up the SP maybe you would find mobs a few ranks higher. Nothing major...theoretically high enough in rank to award more SP but low enough in rank that the kill rate scales appropriately so you still come out ahead.

And this is the part that, if anything I said so far didn't, is going to **** people off:

Working as intended.

I love seeing people in groups having fun. I love having fun in a group. I enjoy grouping (with the right people). But I don't expect to be rewarded for anything just because I'm in a group. I have to be accomplishing something in that group that I couldn't accomplish on my own if I want to feel entitled to say I should be getting more.

And now we continue testing and try to find a sweet spot...a reasonable balance between mob rank, time to kill, and SP gained per kill.

I'll admit, the only reason I didn't mock people in their 15 person groups killing mobs 20 ranks above them is because...they were killing mobs 20 ranks above them. Hard to find fault with that. But when they're milking a system that is tuned so that sloppy play + party size = 5-10 times the SP a solo player can hope to get, I'm sorry but it's just broken. When you're encouraging people to soak all kinds of damage so your healers can maximize on SP potential, it's just broken. There was just SO much wrong with the way group play was shaping up and I didn't want to be the dink who takes it out on the players because I have to give them credit for being innovative and working with what they were given.

What it sounds like to me now, however, is that we're back to a scenario where the skilled players with appropriate builds and gear will be rewarded because they'll be able to kill things faster and keep up a strong pace that will allow them to progress faster than a solo player. They'll be earning a faster rate of progression instead of having it handed to them simply because they accepted a group invite, and that, to me, is what MMOs are all about. It's not about being rewarded for being in a group, it's being rewarded for leveraging the advantages of a group to accomplish what a solo player can't accomplish.

Will SE tweak and tune the system going forward? Quite possibly. At least now we're at a baseline for consistency.


I can honestly say, this is not the sp system I was expecting, nor anyone that I've played with tonight. Our mood in vent is rather crappy.

Nonetheless, there has to be some sweet spot, just based on what data I have gathered above, I'm not sure what that is.

The bottom line - what we have is another controversial sp system. This is NOT what this game needed & I'm willing to bet the **** will hit the fan because of this one soon.
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#44 Nov 25 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
I can honestly say, this is not the sp system I was expecting, nor anyone that I've played with tonight. Our mood in vent is rather crappy.


I have to ask, what were you expecting? And I'm not even going to throw some snide lowball guess in there. It's an honest question. To your way of thinking, what is fair SP gain in a group vs. solo? And what is it do you feel you should be required to do in order to earn that SP?
#45 Nov 25 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
I can honestly say, this is not the sp system I was expecting, nor anyone that I've played with tonight. Our mood in vent is rather crappy.


I have to ask, what were you expecting? And I'm not even going to throw some snide lowball guess in there. It's an honest question. To your way of thinking, what is fair SP gain in a group vs. solo? And what is it do you feel you should be required to do in order to earn that SP?


What was I expecting?

- An SP system that was easy to understand
- An SP system that encouraged killing mobs faster to get more SP per hour (but not slow = 1k/hour & fast = 2k/hour)
- An SP system that rewarded players for playing their job as intended
- An SP system that generally gave more SP per hour than the previous system (levels are way to long as you get higher up)

Right now, this system has left me puzzled. I don't know whether I should solo, duo or get 6 people. I don't know what mobs would do the best since there are way too many variables in play to get good sp/hour.

I'm really sleepy and feel like I am not doing a good job conveying my thoughts on how to answer this question, let me sleep on it :)



Edited, Nov 26th 2010 12:53am by KnocturnalOne
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#46 Nov 26 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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I was expecting that they would put in a floor on sp gain and leave the same system in place.

We should never expect that SE will make patches the way that we think they should be I will now go forward with very low expectations.

Several people in our vent are extreemly mad and have had shouting matches over the poor SP gain and how people can just get sp for being AFK and dead. One of my favorite new friends has just decided to quit the game over this patch. Its his right I can understand his feelings I share them too.

The new play style appears to be go balls to wall on lower rank mobs and just kill more faster, ther eis one problem with this.

SE did not increase the respawn rate of monsters so when you clear a field in no time its clear for like 4 minutes and your group gets boored in my post patch exploits this is when people start complaining in party and elave ****** dwindling party size.

Im having a hard time understanding why SE would nerf the game so bad. It definatly helps my conjurer and my Thaum buddy but alot of people are fairing tworeds the negative spectrum of how they feel about this SP overhaul.

Bottom line is I think they did a disservice to the game in how they "Fixed" SP gains.

Seems from what i hear that crafting has been nerfed hardcore its now really easy to craft which i guess is good. I see it hurting the economy soon when all the crafters equalize in levels. But well see time will tell.

This may be my only non subdefaulted post today...

Have a nice day and try not to explode in emotion like i do all too often.
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#47 Nov 26 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
I can honestly say, this is not the sp system I was expecting, nor anyone that I've played with tonight. Our mood in vent is rather crappy.


I have to ask, what were you expecting? And I'm not even going to throw some snide lowball guess in there. It's an honest question. To your way of thinking, what is fair SP gain in a group vs. solo? And what is it do you feel you should be required to do in order to earn that SP?


I can't speak for Knocturnal, but I felt I should chime in. I, too, am seeing SP I was not expecting, and in a negative way. But not in terms of the SP return, but in terms of varying monsters giving balls crazy different amounts of SP that leave me really befuddled, unsure of what is good, what is bad, and why blue mobs give better/equal SP than red in some cases.

Let me just give an example, after running several solo leves. I am a 23 Lancer, by the way. All leves done with Guardian's Aspect active.

Ringtail Pteroc, red con, 2-star ~20 leve: 168 SP
Migrating Doe, red con, 1-star, ~20 leve: 232 SP
Firestarter Imp, blue con, 1-star, ~20 leve: 166 SP
Fevered Doe, yellow con, 1-star, ~30 leve: 211 SP
Deepground Puk, red con, 1-star, ~30 leve: 200 SP
Greedy Angler, yellow con, 1-star, ~30 leve: 211 SP
Lowland Nannygoat, green con, 1-star, ~30 leve: 211 SP

(These returns were constant, by the way. No variation between different spawns of the same mob.)

In short? The SP is chaotically different in ways that really don't make a lot of sense. Easier mobs give more, harder mobs give less or nowhere near the 500 SP cap from before (those Deepground Puks are really sticking it in my mouth, to be blunt).

I'm glad that most everything is now giving SP, yes. However there seems to be something really amiss about the SP returns when monsters that can pound me in to ground round give me less SP than other ones.

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 1:28am by Satisiun

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 1:43am by Satisiun

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 1:59am by Satisiun
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#48 Nov 26 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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I get the same SP no matter what I do during the fight which encourages people to kill the mobs faster since they will give the same SP no matter how many swings or casts you get on it.
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#49 Nov 26 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here is what I experienced myself with the new SP system.


1- Solo vs Group

This was test as a lancer 21 on cassiopeia. Solo, they gave 78-85 SP. I started killing them in a group of 5, range from 21-25, they gave 52 SP. We could kill them 5 times faster than what I was doing solo, without cool down. So 260SP for group play vs. 80SP.

2- New system vs Old system
It feels way slower now (lesser SP gain / hour ). My first reaction was frustration. However, our group really wanted to take the most out of the current situation. We started chaining monsters, we used enfeebling from Battle Regimen (we seldom never used them before), we learned to be efficient with it, and we went all out to speed up the killing. Nobody was looking at their personal SP gain, trying to change everyone's tactic to fit their personal gain. We were efficient. It reminded me of the good old FFXI party play. It was the most fun I ever had in party so far in FFXIV.

So yes, leveling will be slower. But you should give a try in group, it is faster than solo, and it is now fun to do. In sums, it is working as intended. It is just sad to cut out on your large beloved SP gain. It might get adjusted in the future tho.
#50 Nov 26 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Satisiun wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
I can honestly say, this is not the sp system I was expecting, nor anyone that I've played with tonight. Our mood in vent is rather crappy.


I have to ask, what were you expecting? And I'm not even going to throw some snide lowball guess in there. It's an honest question. To your way of thinking, what is fair SP gain in a group vs. solo? And what is it do you feel you should be required to do in order to earn that SP?


I can't speak for Knocturnal, but I felt I should chime in. I, too, am seeing SP I was not expecting, and in a negative way. But not in terms of the SP return, but in terms of varying monsters giving balls crazy different amounts of SP that leave me really befuddled, unsure of what is good, what is bad, and why blue mobs give better/equal SP than red in some cases.

Let me just give an example, after running several solo leves. I am a 23 Lancer, by the way.

Ringtail Pteroc, red con, 2-star ~20 leve: 168 SP
Migrating Doe, red con, 1-star, ~20 leve: 232 SP
Firestarter Imp, blue con, 1-star, ~20 leve: 166 SP
Fevered Doe, yellow con, 1-star, ~30 leve: 211 SP
Deepground Puk, red con, 1-star, ~30 leve: 200 SP
Greedy Angler, yellow con, 1-star, ~30 leve: 211 SP
Lowland Nannygoat, green con, 1-star, ~30 leve: 211 SP

In short? The SP is chaotically different in ways that really don't make a lot of sense. Easier mobs give more, harder mobs give less or nowhere near the 500 SP cap from before (those Deepground Puks are really sticking it in my mouth, to be blunt).

I'm glad that most everything is now giving SP, yes. However there seems to be something really amiss about the SP returns when monsters that can pound me in to ground round give me less SP than other ones.


Thanks for posting your SP values. It helps.

Judging from what you posted alone, it looks like the sweet spot (at least for solo) would be fighting yellow mobs. How that translates to a group is hard to say. Maybe the way the mob cons to you while you're in the group would be a good indication.

I did the same rank 20 leve out of Camp Tranquil tonight (Ringtail Pteroc/Firestarter Imp) and at rank 18 I was getting a little over 300 SP sword and shield with Divine Favor. So it seems certain by now that there's a drop off in SP earned when you hit rank 20. I don't agree with it, I'm not supporting it, just reiterating the obvious.

Honestly, I'm a bit sleepy too and I haven't the focus to go into it in any detail, but I think that once the initial shock wears off and everyone has settled down out of, "RAH RAH WEEE PATCH DAY!!" mode and had time to do a little experimenting, I'm fairly confident the numbers will work out. It would seem fairly obvious that the 500 SP/kill days are gone.
#51 Nov 26 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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HDurance wrote:
Here is what I experienced myself with the new SP system.


1- Solo vs Group

This was test as a lancer 21 on cassiopeia. Solo, they gave 78-85 SP. I started killing them in a group of 5, range from 21-25, they gave 52 SP. We could kill them 5 times faster than what I was doing solo, without cool down. So 260SP for group play vs. 80SP.

2- New system vs Old system
It feels way slower now (lesser SP gain / hour ). My first reaction was frustration. However, our group really wanted to take the most out of the current situation. We started chaining monsters, we used enfeebling from Battle Regimen (we seldom never used them before), we learned to be efficient with it, and we went all out to speed up the killing. Nobody was looking at their personal SP gain, trying to change everyone's tactic to fit their personal gain. We were efficient. It reminded me of the good old FFXI party play. It was the most fun I ever had in party so far in FFXIV.

So yes, leveling will be slower. But you should give a try in group, it is faster than solo, and it is now fun to do. In sums, it is working as intended. It is just sad to cut out on your large beloved SP gain. It might get adjusted in the future tho.


Well put. That does sound a lot better even if you don't get the same numbers. The biggest complaints were that fighting was painfully boring as you changed your playstyle to maximize SP gains and that you could sometimes fight and get 0 SP. Both of those are huge, needed changes I think...
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