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Did they somehow programmed SP and EXP mixed up? Follow

#52 Nov 26 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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The problem now is that to get the best SP in a group all you do is zerg blue con mobs which die in sub 10 seconds

No tactics are involved sadly, just like it was before the patch

I'm pretty down about the whole situation really

I hope they put out a new patch before the december patch to address the SP because solo AND group it simply isn't enough and the gameplay is lacking
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#53 Nov 26 2010 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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So it seems like the system in place is better. By that I mean, never 0SP & faster kills(efficiency) is now good. But that they need to do some tweaking on the SP amounts? Especially the discrepancy between blue to red...
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#54 Nov 26 2010 at 2:19 AM Rating: Good
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I do agree that party play was somewhat monotonous but the rewards made it worth it. i worked for five hours solo, group of 5, and group of ten, and my sp gains per hour were pretty much the same no matter what i was doing. not only that but i'm rank 31 and all the changes to sp needed to rank up between r1-r31 should have given me a giant pool of leftover sp which apparently is just gone now. so all the hard work i did between day 1 and now was wasted on a rank i could have attained easily within a couple of weeks if i started today vs a couple months since i started day 1. today is a sad day for me. party dynamics is ruined for me because i was happy with the old system and now depressed about the new system. i've also noticed a trend in the forums. all those upset with the new sp system are rank 31 or more. all those rank 30 or less seem relatively happy. . . . i dunno how i feel about this game anymore. although the one thing i do know is that i am very very happy with everything else in the update. the sp ruined it for me though. in my opinion this game went from a C+ to a C-.
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#55 Nov 26 2010 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
So it seems like the system in place is better. By that I mean, never 0SP & faster kills(efficiency) is now good. But that they need to do some tweaking on the SP amounts? Especially the discrepancy between blue to red...


Maybe they do, but before they do that I think either players need to fiddle a bit more and try different things, or SE needs to release a blurb explaining exactly how it works. Maybe the next Ask the Devs article?
#56 Nov 26 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Decent
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pinkgangstalgss wrote:
I do agree that party play was somewhat monotonous but the rewards made it worth it. i worked for five hours solo, group of 5, and group of ten, and my sp gains per hour were pretty much the same no matter what i was doing. not only that but i'm rank 31 and all the changes to sp needed to rank up between r1-r31 should have given me a giant pool of leftover sp which apparently is just gone now. so all the hard work i did between day 1 and now was wasted on a rank i could have attained easily within a couple of weeks if i started today vs a couple months since i started day 1. today is a sad day for me. party dynamics is ruined for me because i was happy with the old system and now depressed about the new system. i've also noticed a trend in the forums. all those upset with the new sp system are rank 31 or more. all those rank 30 or less seem relatively happy. . . . i dunno how i feel about this game anymore. although the one thing i do know is that i am very very happy with everything else in the update. the sp ruined it for me though. in my opinion this game went from a C+ to a C-.


Ya, and if you had started playing today after the SP changes you'd be rank 1, so get over it.
#57 Nov 26 2010 at 2:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
pinkgangstalgss wrote:
I do agree that party play was somewhat monotonous but the rewards made it worth it. i worked for five hours solo, group of 5, and group of ten, and my sp gains per hour were pretty much the same no matter what i was doing. not only that but i'm rank 31 and all the changes to sp needed to rank up between r1-r31 should have given me a giant pool of leftover sp which apparently is just gone now. so all the hard work i did between day 1 and now was wasted on a rank i could have attained easily within a couple of weeks if i started today vs a couple months since i started day 1. today is a sad day for me. party dynamics is ruined for me because i was happy with the old system and now depressed about the new system. i've also noticed a trend in the forums. all those upset with the new sp system are rank 31 or more. all those rank 30 or less seem relatively happy. . . . i dunno how i feel about this game anymore. although the one thing i do know is that i am very very happy with everything else in the update. the sp ruined it for me though. in my opinion this game went from a C+ to a C-.


Ya, and if you had started playing today after the SP changes you'd be rank 1, so get over it.


My point is that I put in a lot of time to earn the rank i have. Now that the system has changed i should have earned much more based on there new system. easily at least another 50k sp if not more. now that sp is just gone no where to be found. Instead of feeling accomplished i now feel gipped. So don't be a jerk because i voiced an opinion.
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#58 Nov 26 2010 at 2:44 AM Rating: Good
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pinkgangstalgss wrote:
My point is that I put in a lot of time to earn the rank i have. Now that the system has changed i should have earned much more based on there new system. easily at least another 50k sp if not more. now that sp is just gone no where to be found. Instead of feeling accomplished i now feel gipped. So don't be a jerk because i voiced an opinion.


Like I said, get over it.

I have a rank 30 armorer. Not only would I have had to earn less xp if I started ranking up from rank 1 today as opposed to two months ago, I would have used 20-25% fewer shards because they reduced shard costs with the patch, too. But you don't hear me sniveling about not only the "lost" SP but the several hundred thousand gil worth of shards, do you? I'm still a rank 30 armorer today. It's not like I lost ranks over it.
#59 Nov 26 2010 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
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the thing is at what point do you kill 2 fast to make the sp gain way 2 slow? well lets say there are 10 mobs in a area these mobs go down in 30 seconds each that leaves us with 10 mobs dead in 5 mins. well now what are we doing waiting for the next mobs to spawn and what happens if another party comes even less.. or we get aggro further killing our sp cause we dont get any off an unclaimed mob. now for solo lets say a glad was out soloing good little spot =) yay not even getting close to what he use to get in a good party along comes a dd ripping through his spot killing in almost half the time as him what does this glad do? well he goes and makes a pug cause trying to lvl a tank solo sucks.....

we put together a trio tonight r 24 glad r 28 con and a lvl 1 con got a good old 70 on the 25 gla and 28 con the lvl 1 got a good old 180sp funny thing is the lvl 1 was dead for all the fights layed there not doing anyhting just plain dead and still got all the exp and lveled?

for it to matter we would need a good area with alot of mobs that dont aggro and that we could kill in 30 seconds granting 80-100 sp then right to the next no down time no walk time no killing unclaimed mobs no breaks no talking no walking nothing thats a good ole 2 mobs a min 120 mobs an hour that just about evens out with the old system in an hour.


know any camps like that? nope..... most mobs have a 3-5 min respawn timer thats 6-10 mobs so going to need a good area with a constant 12-20 mobs in a short range just to have a good camp
#60 Nov 26 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
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GuiltyBoomerang wrote:
The big party grinds on Efts, Raptors, might not work as well now, based on this new way of gaining SP based on 'difficulty' - Since it's now based on mob difficulty, a yellow mob for a single person will get that person more SP than if they were in a five person party and the mob was blue...


Difference being xp per hour...this way is much better than it was because party play can actually be "party" play. In a party you can run through 2 or 3 mobs in the same time you can solo the same amount of xp.
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#61 Nov 26 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
pinkgangstalgss wrote:
My point is that I put in a lot of time to earn the rank i have. Now that the system has changed i should have earned much more based on there new system. easily at least another 50k sp if not more. now that sp is just gone no where to be found. Instead of feeling accomplished i now feel gipped. So don't be a jerk because i voiced an opinion.


Like I said, get over it.

I have a rank 30 armorer. Not only would I have had to earn less xp if I started ranking up from rank 1 today as opposed to two months ago, I would have used 20-25% fewer shards because they reduced shard costs with the patch, too. But you don't hear me sniveling about not only the "lost" SP but the several hundred thousand gil worth of shards, do you? I'm still a rank 30 armorer today. It's not like I lost ranks over it.


sniveling is harsh and rude. your a Jerk.
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#62 Nov 26 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey Maximus Occisor! I was in the Yarz/Eft group with him. The SP/hr was disappointing to put it mildly, tanks dieing to lightning breath was brutal.

Then I duo'd with a buddy and SP was rollin' in! I'm loving the Diablo2-style mass slaughter-fest on blue dots =D

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 1:47pm by Pondering
#63 Nov 26 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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Humster wrote:
did they programmed it wrongly into the patch.


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#64 Nov 26 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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Ok so, I know all of my LS buddies and I were super excited about this update on th Karnak server. First to note the faults of the past system, the UI was screwed beyond all, crafting was hella slow, getting to r20 took forever, and as for partying well the random SP gains were annoying at times, and getting 0sp some fights sucked ***. As a player coming from ff11 this whole new system was new to me, and I gotta say after this update I wish I was back playing 11. I understand the desire to equalize SP across the boards, to avoid the whole 10-15 zerging and CNJ getting cap SP everyfight while the MRD got 100-200+ on average if lucky to hit enough. I think most people would agree, the battle system that was in place in 11 was incredible, you actually had to think about party balance and getting the right jobs together, not to mention being able to Skillchain and Magic Burst to kill faster and accomplish exp chains. Currently, we have Battle Regiment which I personally haven't even used once, because **** we've never had a reason to. Pre-r20 SP is incredible, I took my PGL from 13-14 in like 45mins, killing everything fast and for 340+SP and 600+exp each time. Post-r20 though, WTF! .. I'm a 25MRD main, soon as LS got back on after patch we tried eft party, but because of nerfed VIT tanks got hit hella hard, and bc of increased mob hp, took longer to kill. Yes, equalize SP so everyone gets some. But for the love of god, how bout increasing the amount of SP received post-20 for both party and solo. Getting this whole 60-90SP crap is a step back in time, and is just gonna make everyone rank their classes to 20 and stop playing. Agreed, the past system of just zerging **** and trying to kill slowly was kinda boring at times. And yes, this new system makes things more challenging, however, with the current SP gain its like the overcoming the challenge isnt worth it. Increasing the baseline SP were getting, keep difficulty the same and maybe then you'll see positive review cuz then ppl will start making strategic parties like in 11 but will actually get good SP.

On a side note, this patch didn't come with all bad. The improved UI is a HUGE step forward, everything was crisp and alot smoother for me. The sort function for items is incredible, that unorganized crap was annoying me (slight OCD about that stuff). The increase in physical accuracy and parry rate, especially for MRD, was much awaited and thank you SE. Not so happy about the nerfed VIT though. Hmmm, and I think thats it, oh and SE better put an emergency patch through before december to fix up this SP issue or else their wont even be any players left come december patch lol. Curious question though, does DEX now ACTUALLY help accuracy and parry? and why have they not fixed VIT affect from equipment (or am i imagining things)?
#65 Nov 26 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Right now the most efficient way to get SP is to just kill high blue mobs, and choose those with low HP.

Solo or in a small Party. It became a grind to me out of a sudden. I now need to kill and kill and kill and don;t even bother to talk or joke in my LS anymore. SP/HR?

I can't see a target I can reach when the SP is too random, with 0s at times. Now, I can see the SP, but look at the SP bar, and the SP gained per mob, and think about that I'm only Rank 20, whats going to happen at Rank 30+.

I guess If I ever do login again, I'll just mine and chop wood for ppl.

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 3:11pm by Humster

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 3:18pm by Humster
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#66 Nov 26 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Humster wrote:
did they programmed it wrongly into the patch.


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#67 Nov 26 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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After reading nearly every post in this thread, there seems to be a pattern in the madness.

First of all, one of the tests made showed someone killing a yellow con solo. They then added someone to the party and got 10-15sp less than solo. This just shows that you're not gaining SP/XP based on the level of the mob compared to you, but the level of the mob compared to your party. This should have already been established since before the patch mobs would con differently depending on the number and rank range of the people in your party. I think it's safe to say SP/XP is rewarded based on the difference between the mob you're fighting and some sort of average in rank in your party and the number of people in your party.

Secondly, another test showed radically different SP gains between different level mobs. While these numbers aren't consistent from cons (green con and yellow con giving the same SP results), the red cons in particular were radically different. This leads me to believe there is possibly a sweet spot when it comes to the level of the mobs. For example a party of 10 members has a sweet spot to kill mobs exactly 20 levels higher than the party. Killing a mob 21+ levels higher will start to give SP/XP returns significantly less than the sweet spot level. (These numbers may not be accurate, they are just used to give an example)

All in all, on paper this seems like a much better situation. I've yet to find time to work with the new system, but when I do I will post any significant results (good or bad). We may not be seeing 500SP rewards anymore (though, we may), but once we go out and start finding a good balance between rank ranges, member numbers and mob levels, i think we'll be gaining SP/XP much faster and more efficiently than before both in solo and party settings.

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 12:21pm by Ravida
#68 Nov 26 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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There needs to be a falt floor to this.
100 Blue
200 green
300 yellow 250 (Middle would be the mobs without a color symbol)
400 orange
500 red
The con system needs to be changed to be per yourself verus one of the target not this groups strength verus group strength thing. The whole group verus solo thing is become and issue they need to address it. Honestly the huge groups are now feeling how us solo felt for a long time. On the idea that soloing is good atm, past 20 its not great. Sp gains 100 +/- a little but its stuck there.

Also a lot of people are thinking the Sp gains are great but thier not hitting none Leve mobs. There is currently a huge difference between "normal" mobs and "Leve" mobs. If they want to reraise the celling for exp gains I am fine with that. But seeing 50-120 Sp max on my Pug at 22 is depressing. It needs to follow the crafting system, why it isn't already makes no sense.

Lastly Leve need to have the limit removed. There trying to slow the rate of climb down. However 30,40 and I'm sure 50s even exsist now. However a lot of people are stuck job level at 25 -/+ . The climb gets too steep unless your gaming the system . Old 15 man parties with 500 Sp combats etc . It needs to be balanced for all players.
#69 Nov 26 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Humster wrote:
I can't see a target I can reach when the SP is too random, with 0s at times. Now, I can see the SP, but look at the SP bar, and the SP gained per mob, and think about that I'm only Rank 20, whats going to happen at Rank 30+.

I guess If I ever do login again, I'll just mine and chop wood for ppl.
Look at it this way.

Old system: Zerg much high level mob, spam basic attacks to maximize gain which prolongs fight, avoid buffing to maximize healer SP. Gain anywhere between 0-500SP per fight.
vs
New system: Attack moderately higher level mob, actually use the skills you've picked up over the levels which kills faster, buff however you like. Gain at a constant SP rate.

The old system may have let you get to 50 faster (which we don't know that it did yet since we've only just begun to experiment with it), but why bother to get there under the old system? You never used any of the skills you picked up as you leveled. You couldn't, because it would cause your SP to drop.

Now, taking SP out of the equation. Which was more fun? Using the abilities you've gained over the ranks to actually play your class? Or spamming a basic attack for the duration of a prolonged fight?

SE makes a change which gives us an actual combat-related reason to level up, and people are complaining that they can't gain the same SP as the were under the borefest that was the old SP system, under which there wasn't any combat-related reason to rank up. Boring combat vs not boring combat?

For myself, I would gladly take an SP hit if it means I'll get more enjoyable combat. Before the update I was getting roughly 1/2 rank per day. I hated the large group basic attack grinding, so I would do leves, solo, and play in small groups (2-4 other players from my LS). Under the new system I flew through 1.5 ranks in the same amount of time I used to gain only 1/2, doing the exact same thing I was doing before.

Rather than deriving your enjoyment from what number 1-500 shows up in your log after a fight, perhaps try experimenting with the combat system now that it wont kill your SP, unless you would rather hit 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for hours at a time. If you thought the old system was fun, you should check out a game called Cow Clicker. You'd love it.
#70 Nov 26 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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theweenie wrote:
Humster wrote:
I can't see a target I can reach when the SP is too random, with 0s at times. Now, I can see the SP, but look at the SP bar, and the SP gained per mob, and think about that I'm only Rank 20, whats going to happen at Rank 30+.

I guess If I ever do login again, I'll just mine and chop wood for ppl.
Look at it this way.

Old system: Zerg much high level mob, spam basic attacks to maximize gain which prolongs fight, avoid buffing to maximize healer SP. Gain anywhere between 0-500SP per fight.
vs
New system: Attack moderately higher level mob, actually use the skills you've picked up over the levels which kills faster, buff however you like. Gain at a constant SP rate.

The old system may have let you get to 50 faster (which we don't know that it did yet since we've only just begun to experiment with it), but why bother to get there under the old system? You never used any of the skills you picked up as you leveled. You couldn't, because it would cause your SP to drop.

Now, taking SP out of the equation. Which was more fun? Using the abilities you've gained over the ranks to actually play your class? Or spamming a basic attack for the duration of a prolonged fight?

SE makes a change which gives us an actual combat-related reason to level up, and people are complaining that they can't gain the same SP as the were under the borefest that was the old SP system, under which there wasn't any combat-related reason to rank up. Boring combat vs not boring combat?

For myself, I would gladly take an SP hit if it means I'll get more enjoyable combat. Before the update I was getting roughly 1/2 rank per day. I hated the large group basic attack grinding, so I would do leves, solo, and play in small groups (2-4 other players from my LS). Under the new system I flew through 1.5 ranks in the same amount of time I used to gain only 1/2, doing the exact same thing I was doing before.

Rather than deriving your enjoyment from what number 1-500 shows up in your log after a fight, perhaps try experimenting with the combat system now that it wont kill your SP, unless you would rather hit 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for hours at a time. If you thought the old system was fun, you should check out a game called Cow Clicker. You'd love it.


Old system: Partying and ranking up wasn't a horrible grind.

New system: Partying and ranking up past 20 is horrible grind.

Talk about a borefest, now you have to kill low rank mobs thousands of times to rank up.

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 4:00pm by SilkWyrm
#71 Nov 26 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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SilkWyrm wrote:
Old system: Partying and ranking up wasn't a horrible grind.

New system: Partying and ranking up past 20 is horrible grind.
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I would rather use my weapon skills and actually fight as my class for 10 hours rather than press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for 8 hours.

That to me was the epitome of a horrible grind.
#72 Nov 26 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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theweenie wrote:
SilkWyrm wrote:
Old system: Partying and ranking up wasn't a horrible grind.

New system: Partying and ranking up past 20 is horrible grind.
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I would rather use my weapon skills and actually fight as my class for 10 hours rather than press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for 8 hours.

That to me was the epitome of a horrible grind.



Not being rude, but did you ever party on Eft, Pieste or Raptor.

None of those parties consisted of spamming light attack.. Everyone did as much damage and weaponskills as possible. A light hit when it procs was netting about 80SP. If I used ferocity and Skewer II if it procced I would get 150-200. If I used disorient I would get 200+ SP. I would frequently cap 500 sp and the eft would still be half alive using my biggest baddest attacks. Being flipant, a lancer would never spam light attack, always heavy thrust as it enfeebled and coupl proc twice. We all know light attack cannot be unequipped so it wouldhave been 2 2 2 2 2 :p that was a joke btw

Yes I accept the lower level parties often wanted you to spawm light attack, but this was not the case later on. Certainly not in my experience and we had a static of 8 regulars and none of us ever wanted or asked people to spam light attack

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 4:13pm by MisterGaribaldi

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 4:17pm by MisterGaribaldi
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#73 Nov 26 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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theweenie wrote:
SilkWyrm wrote:
Old system: Partying and ranking up wasn't a horrible grind.

New system: Partying and ranking up past 20 is horrible grind.
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I would rather use my weapon skills and actually fight as my class for 10 hours rather than press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for 8 hours.

That to me was the epitome of a horrible grind.


Funny, everyone in my LS that I grouped with before the patch never hit 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1. Must have been just the people you were playing with. We had a well-rounded group, and everyone used their abilities to full potential, and we killed challenging mobs at a normal pace. Was a total blast, and very motivating.

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 4:16pm by SilkWyrm
#74 Nov 26 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Not being rude, but did you ever party on Eft, Pieste or Raptor.
Piestes and Raptors no, Efts yes.

It was one of the most boring experiences in grouping in any MMO I have ever played.
#75 Nov 26 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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theweenie wrote:
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Not being rude, but did you ever party on Eft, Pieste or Raptor.
Piestes and Raptors no, Efts yes.

It was one of the most boring experiences in grouping in any MMO I have ever played.


Even while fighting Efts, we never spammed light attack. Honestly, it sounded like you partied with boring players.


Edited, Nov 26th 2010 4:21pm by SilkWyrm
#76 Nov 26 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I couldn;t agree more. It was an Eft that I made all of my JP friends and had some of my BEST tmies so far in FFXIV.

To me, I have lost my levelling buddies and my most fun way of levelling.

Now, instead of killing a mob that could at least kill us on occassions, i;m off to the woods to nail some squirrels. yeah I feel like such a hero lol
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#77 Nov 26 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also, as we are forced to kill crappy mobs for the most efficient sp gains, you think that is conducive to playing your character well and at its full potential.

Now you go from spamming a light attack over and over, to possibly getting one or 2 hits on a mob before it has died. How is that fun. Yes you can use a diff attack from light attack, but if the mob is eating dirt before half the party get out of passive mode that also doesn;t seem a whole lot of fun
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#78 Nov 26 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, the majority of Japanese players celebrate teamwork and communication. I'm very curious to see how the JP players are reacting to this change.
#79 Nov 26 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned BUT:

Linking leves = HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE increase in SP gains. Also, leves are NOT automatically linked.
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#80 Nov 26 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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theweenie wrote:
SilkWyrm wrote:
Old system: Partying and ranking up wasn't a horrible grind.

New system: Partying and ranking up past 20 is horrible grind.
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I would rather use my weapon skills and actually fight as my class for 10 hours rather than press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for 8 hours.

That to me was the epitome of a horrible grind.


Well, I'll have to disagree with you, and agree with him. Here's why:

First, let me say that the "exp system" itself is great! Getting a consistent reward each and everytime is very similar to XI, and which worked good. What's not great, is the scale of the SP earned.

The expectation was that this update would also increase the amount of SP obtained thus, faster leveling up. This is not the case.

In the old system, 10K an hour seemed to be good/norm. Inconsistent, sure. Fighting higher level & harder mobs, nice to check them out, learn the different moves they do, and had some elemnent of risk (I'm talking to you Black Eft for one shotting me!)

The new system, as I've tested it out, doesn't favor the old style. Ok, no problem. So what does it favor? I try multiple setups, clearly the mob gives you SP based on your rank relative to the mob. As solo, a blue/green borderline sea puk gives roughly 60-80 sp solo. For a yellow mob, I get about 100sp. I even soloed a red mob for a baseline (Peridot Coblyn in Copperbell Mines) for 120ish SP.

After doing that I've found that for solo mindlessly churning blue/green mobs (even better with low HP) results in teh best SP per hour, about 5-7k.

So I start adding more people, starting with two. We can get 9.3k per hour (I used a stopwatch) grinding on what was blue/green puks, which now are steady blue with two people. SP gained held steady, we killed faster, resulted in 9.3k/hr.

So, then I got third person, an Archer, and we proceeded to kill faster. It seemed as if the faster you killed, the more mobs spawned (to an extent) but even killing faster (getting still near close/same sp per kill) it came out to 9.3k/hr. There was no apparent benefit to adding more people or your running even worse against repop timer. There were 8-9 puks in this north section of Nanawa Mines.

I then thought about maybe a harder mob, one that would be yellow we could grind on. But then you kill slow, so it seems logically it would keep evening out.

Do I like this system? Yes

Do I like the scale? No

Other thoughts: This system appears to favor a mindlessly engaging SP duo/trio setup. Meaning, blue mobs where your not requiring any thought whatsover, any so called "usage of your abilities to make you a better player". Unless you think spamming attack & ws makes you better. I guess killing those 444 Puks to get from 28 to 28 requires skill!

They need to scale the system so more members coupled with harder mobs = more individual sp per kill. Fix the scale & the system will be just fine.

I would love for someone who disagrees with me to post up actual data supporting "better sp gain" & a "setup that required usage of your abilities to full extent". I mention "better sp gain" because SE clearly stated that would be the case in the update notes.

Lastly, FFXI required 285K from ranks 1-50, FFXIV requires ~1.8 Million, even getting 2-3X the hourly rate of FFXI it would MUCH MUCH longer to get to 50. This is why I think this system is broken, FOR GROUP PLAY.

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 4:30pm by KnocturnalOne

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 4:33pm by KnocturnalOne

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 4:34pm by KnocturnalOne
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#81 Nov 26 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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174 posts
Very useful information Benilla, thank you.

I am going to stop ranting about this SP issue now as personally I think SE will sort it. I am not convinced the party bonus is working as intended and it could be that which is causing low sp gains for parties. Please do not think I want partying to be uber easy, I actual want the complete opposite. I want parties to have to face challanges and obstacles to get the "best" sp, not waste hours killing mobs they could easily solo anyway.

I just find it ironic how all the previous people who hated partying now love it, and all the old hardcore grinders are seriously upset with the changes. Talk about role reversal
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#82 Nov 26 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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56 posts
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Very useful information Benilla, thank you.

I am going to stop ranting about this SP issue now as personally I think SE will sort it. I am not convinced the party bonus is working as intended and it could be that which is causing low sp gains for parties. Please do not think I want partying to be uber easy, I actual want the complete opposite. I want parties to have to face challanges and obstacles to get the "best" sp, not waste hours killing mobs they could easily solo anyway.

I just find it ironic how all the previous people who hated partying now love it, and all the old hardcore grinders are seriously upset with the changes. Talk about role reversal


No problem, this has been tested. We were in Nanawa and activated 1 person's leve and the enemy we were killing (forgot which one) yielded ~120SP. We finished that and luckily had 2 people in the party who had the exact same leve, so this time we linked them and killed the same enemy, this time yielding ~200SP.

Imagine getting a huge party, everyone linking SP? Makes sense to push people to party and to do leves.
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#83 Nov 26 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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174 posts
I agree you could be onto something ^^

Now we can set 3 favourite locations it is easier than ever to visit all 3 towns to grab leve each reset. Also at higher levels each town has 2 locations for leve quests so the amount available doubles.

Maybe more relevance has to be placed on leve quests and not all out grinding
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#84 Nov 26 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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89 posts
Did you guys ever consider that this fix came based on the DEC patch? NM mobs and so on.
#85 Nov 26 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
yes I think everyone noticed the nice bump of SP gain during leves. Heck, thats the very first thing I tested out when I logged on and then was majorly disappointed when I tried grinding with some LS buddies. Don't get me wrong, I don't want partying to get too easy, I like the challenge and having to actually approach targets with some kind of strategy. Possibly making us actually have to use Battle Regiment, like we had to use skillchains in 11. Anyways, as for leves; yes SP gains would be great when linking them in big parties, but heres a question to consider, how in the world is that suppose to make us happy? We get 8 leves, every 36hrs, each leve giving us maybe 5-10mobs to fight. So if you get a party together where you get 200 a fight, thats about 8k-16k for several, several hours of work and running around, not very appetizing. But atleast SE didn't mess everything up, I have faith they will fix things in due time. So if your disappointed, I suggest you take this opportunity to rank up other classes you were interested in to r20 which is now fairly easy (and gives you nice exp as well for your pLvl ;) ). Oh and by the way, if you want some sp and wanna party up, try behest, gives pretty nice sp and typically more mobs then leves ;) lol
#86 Nov 26 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Default
39 posts
Like some people had tested out their Solo and party sp gian.

solo: take 15sec kill (blue) = 50-60 sp / per mob
party : take 8sec kill (ble) = 35-30 sp /per mob

so time run over time . sp stay the same not much diff between solo and party maybe party does get 500sp ocer time in 1hr . wtf why dont u just go play solo ? u get all the shard and drop for urself ********

with this What is the point of party and gian sp . to me . no point

1)this is FFXI (maybe FFXI xp system is better than this)
2)SOLO and party are gianing almost the same SP (solo get all the drop)
3)this is like OFFline game . everyone just go play SOLO just that u chat with online player and friends ?
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#87 Nov 26 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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86 posts
Humster wrote:
Ok long story short. Rank 20 Marauder Physical 40

Before patch on Green and Yellow Sea puks, solo.

SP: 0 - 325
Exp 60 - 80

After patch

SP: 60 - 80
Exp: 150 - 250

Is it me or something is not right here?



Difference is before you could have a string of 3 mobs that netted you very low or zero SP. Now every mob gives SP based on its color. Forget about blues and greens, they are equivalent to EP and Decent con mobs in FF11... very low SP gain unless you kill them in large groups fast (yes you do gain SP with AOE kills now).

Overall the SP gain is higher since it comes in reliably... and it no longer is the mad race to hit as many times as possible, f*ck the rest of the pty mentality when grouping (otherwise you get no SP!).

Bad thing? Party SP is not increased to compensate. A group of 6 tackling a red mob takes longer and gives about the same SP as a player solo killing a yellow (and solo you get kills faster).
#88 Nov 26 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,949 posts
I'll try to clear some confusion about XP "Bonus" for party.

Let's start with soloing a mob that is your rank (Green icon). Let's say you get 120sp doing that.

Duoing the same mob, two players of the same rank would get 70sp each. Total SP gained = 70+70 = 140. 140 is 116% of 120 (solo xp). The extra 16% is the bonus.

Add a third player and they all get 66. Total gained = 66+66+66 = 198. 198 is 165% of 120.

Yes, the number goes DOWN for each player and kill. Yes, the total XP granted goes UP the bigger the party.

-----History lesson----
That's exactly how XP was split and how party bonuses worked in FFXI, and how they work in WoW; basically, the XP is divided by number of players, then a bonus is applied based on group size.

In FFXI, the bonus for the group size stopped at 6. Anything above that was considered alliance size, and would stop to increase. (It would actually take a steep hit, if I remember correctly. Unless in Abyssea, which didn't follow the olde rules)

------ PLing in XIV, but not XI-----
The main difference is that instead of punishing level gaps like FFXI does, FFXIV seems to ignore them and grant XP to the lowbies based on their level vs the target level, making PLing a possibility (and soon a reality, if no nerf happens)

To clarify how FFXI punished lower leveled players: the "base XP" that a mob would was compared to the highest level player in the party. (Level 20 mob, level 20 player = base 100 XP.) Then, that XP was divided by the number of players, and multiplied by the party bonus (3 players = 33 xp. * party bonus 1.2 = 39). Then the game gave that 39 XP to the highest player, and gave to everyone else the same % XP that it represents for them.

Easiest example to explain the above: Level 1 is 500 XP needed. Level 2 is 1000 XP needed. If you kill a level 2 mob in a duo of a level 1 and 2, the level 2 gains 100/2*1.15 = 57 xp and the level 1 would get 28 (half of 57, because 57/1000 is 5.7% of your level, and 5.7% of 500 = 28)

In Other Words, this means that in FFXI, two players would always progress at the same pace inside their respective levels, no matter the level difference. Lowbies would never catch up to higher players unless they used XP rings, or did FoV pages or something. Obviously, Level Sync came and changed most of that, since the higher leveled player would simply lower himself down to the lower level players, which made sure everyone got the same split.

On the other hand, FFXIV, each player gets the SP according to their rank vs mob rank, and then divided by party members and multiplied by party bonus. The multiplier is limited by the amount of player -10/+5 levels around you to prevent extreme forms of PLing, I suppose.

----TLDR----

When Square-Enyx mention "bonus XP" for party, they don't mean that party xp figures will be bigger than solo xp figures. They mean that there is a "magical" multiplier that improves the XP in groups (compared to simply giving an even share to everyone)

500 / 2 = 250.
500 / 2 * bonus = 300. 300 x 2 is > 500 therefore there was a bonus thanks to playing in group.

Edited, Nov 26th 2010 5:40pm by Docent42
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FFXIV: Cloe Delisle Scholar, officer of the SWAGGER Free company, Sargatanas server.
#89 Nov 26 2010 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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237 posts
not sure if powerleveling will work. I was in mist beard with 7 others fighting yarzon. As a rank 30 lancer I was getting ~80 sp a kill. (our PT was a mix of ranks 20-30, so i should have been getting a 7 bonus mod.) after a while I changed to my rank 10 Conj just for S&G's. I was getting 77SP a kill.

I think powerleveling will be confined to Guildleve and behest, but not open world. Thats just based off my brief experience with the new SP system.
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#90 Nov 26 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
39 posts
Forget about Ranking up your battle style job.
Let all go craft . craft sp dont change.
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#91 Nov 26 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
japanlwq wrote:
Forget about Ranking up your battle style job.
Let all go craft . craft sp dont change.


Hold tight there buddy, crafting SP HAS IMPROVED though. Much faster UI means you can craft more items per hour than you could yesterday.
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FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#92 Nov 26 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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1,675 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:


Well put. That does sound a lot better even if you don't get the same numbers. The biggest complaints were that fighting was painfully boring as you changed your playstyle to maximize SP gains and that you could sometimes fight and get 0 SP. Both of those are huge, needed changes I think...


Soloing is a lot better.

Is it still a grind, yes, but the combination of mobs and how quickly I can now take them down really distills the grind by 50% if not more. If feels like I'm progressing even if I'm only getting 45sp per blue, rather than... a hard fight vs a yellow, heal, look for another mob, can't find one, OK, engage, almost die, get 135sp, and repeat.

I now have an incentive to kill the mob as fast as I can; my abilities like Victimize actually hit the mob now and since I have TP after a fight (because I don't have to stop and heal) I can open with a Blindside + Victimize, and take half a mobs life to start.

Grinding blues and greens give the biggest bang for the buck solo as it seems for PT play you'd want to focus on the higher colors obviously.

However I think SE nailed it. Yes I would like to see a *bit* more SP for the blues and greens but we'll see. I think though that the SP change in itself will drastically change leveling; PTs will be more viable (especially for those who want to level ASAP) and soloing will be viable, yet slower and that's absolutely fine with me.
#93 Nov 26 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Kierk wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:


Well put. That does sound a lot better even if you don't get the same numbers. The biggest complaints were that fighting was painfully boring as you changed your playstyle to maximize SP gains and that you could sometimes fight and get 0 SP. Both of those are huge, needed changes I think...


Soloing is a lot better.

Is it still a grind, yes, but the combination of mobs and how quickly I can now take them down really distills the grind by 50% if not more. If feels like I'm progressing even if I'm only getting 45sp per blue, rather than... a hard fight vs a yellow, heal, look for another mob, can't find one, OK, engage, almost die, get 135sp, and repeat.

I now have an incentive to kill the mob as fast as I can; my abilities like Victimize actually hit the mob now and since I have TP after a fight (because I don't have to stop and heal) I can open with a Blindside + Victimize, and take half a mobs life to start.

Grinding blues and greens give the biggest bang for the buck solo as it seems for PT play you'd want to focus on the higher colors obviously.

However I think SE nailed it. Yes I would like to see a *bit* more SP for the blues and greens but we'll see. I think though that the SP change in itself will drastically change leveling; PTs will be more viable (especially for those who want to level ASAP) and soloing will be viable, yet slower and that's absolutely fine with me.


They nailed solo sp, but they butchered party sp, plain and simple.
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FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#94 Nov 26 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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174 posts
OMG leve are now amazing.

I was literally a few hundred into rank 13 Gladiator, sorry I forgot to record exactly but I had not long dinged.

Leve finishes and I am now 6590/770 - From 1 leve....WOW

The stray dodo is defeated.
You gain 977 experience points.
You gain 586 sword skill points.
You gain 586 shield skill points.
The stray dodo's group is defeated.
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#95 Nov 26 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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174 posts
SilkWyrm wrote:
Yeah, the majority of Japanese players celebrate teamwork and communication. I'm very curious to see how the JP players are reacting to this change.



It goes something like this I believe

Warau...or W....or 笑う

I have only spoken to 4 who have woken up so far and they are astonished. Eft...W....Party No Thanks i'm playing solo right now ;;

I have just found this post on one of the lodestone blogs, someone who can read japanese can provide a better translation, but you can get the gist:

PTがまずくなったよー!
いろいろ試したけどどうしても何かまずい。
結局ドブランに落ち着きそうで怖い。

もっと強い敵と戦う意味が欲しいな。


PT was ruin yo! - says it all really
I tried something really bad lot.
I eventually settled Doburan scary.

I want to get stronger means to fight the enemy. - I think this means he wants to fight strong mobs again but this does require confirmation.




Edited, Nov 26th 2010 9:05pm by MisterGaribaldi
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#96 Nov 26 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Default
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608 posts
dont know what you guys are fighting but im getting alot of both in leve's im getting over 600SP and 1000exp
just killing stuff orange im getting sp in the 390+'s, red stuff 400-530's


Quote:
Ok long story short. Rank 20 Marauder Physical 40

Before patch on Green and Yellow Sea puks, solo.

SP: 0 - 325
Exp 60 - 80

After patch

SP: 60 - 80
Exp: 150 - 250

Is it me or something is not right here?

yes something is wrong, why you fighting greens & yellows ???
scared to die?
#97 Nov 26 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
*
174 posts
mitmystria wrote:
dont know what you guys are fighting but im getting alot of both in leve's im getting over 600SP and 1000exp
just killing stuff orange im getting sp in the 390+'s, red stuff 400-530's


Quote:
Ok long story short. Rank 20 Marauder Physical 40

Before patch on Green and Yellow Sea puks, solo.

SP: 0 - 325
Exp 60 - 80

After patch

SP: 60 - 80
Exp: 150 - 250

Is it me or something is not right here?

yes something is wrong, why you fighting greens & yellows ???
scared to die?



No, it's not that peeps are afraid to die, it's that it is pointless fighting red mobs. They take much longer to kill and give 10 sp more than had your party killed a blue mob.

This is another viewpoint on the situation

http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/27937-solo-party-now/

Sorry to link to another forum, but it shows what another community are thinking
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#98 Nov 26 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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322 posts
mitmystria wrote:
dont know what you guys are fighting but im getting alot of both in leve's im getting over 600SP and 1000exp
just killing stuff orange im getting sp in the 390+'s, red stuff 400-530's


Quote:
Ok long story short. Rank 20 Marauder Physical 40

Before patch on Green and Yellow Sea puks, solo.

SP: 0 - 325
Exp 60 - 80

After patch

SP: 60 - 80
Exp: 150 - 250

Is it me or something is not right here?

yes something is wrong, why you fighting greens & yellows ???
scared to die?


Anything under 20 is fine

Anything over 20 is nerfed hard
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#99 Nov 26 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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71 posts
When you need 40k+ to lvl, getting 100 per kill just doesn't cut it. Period. I don't care if I can kill things faster to make up for it (and I would argue that it doesn't make up for it), I don't want to fight 400 things just to get 1 level. Compare the ratio of sp per level to sp per kill to that of FFXI, and you will see a ridiculous discrepancy. With the VIT, Shell, and Protect nerfs, the old SP party mobs aren't even viable anymore. What is wrong with having the fighting the same as it was but with a static 250-400 sp per kill? I want to feel an accomplishment when I kill a mob in a party, like each mob is bringing me significantly closer to my goal. Even the old system averaged more sp per kill than this one.
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Death by Asuran Fists.
#100 Nov 26 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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106 posts
pinkgangstalgss wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
pinkgangstalgss wrote:
I do agree that party play was somewhat monotonous but the rewards made it worth it. i worked for five hours solo, group of 5, and group of ten, and my sp gains per hour were pretty much the same no matter what i was doing. not only that but i'm rank 31 and all the changes to sp needed to rank up between r1-r31 should have given me a giant pool of leftover sp which apparently is just gone now. so all the hard work i did between day 1 and now was wasted on a rank i could have attained easily within a couple of weeks if i started today vs a couple months since i started day 1. today is a sad day for me. party dynamics is ruined for me because i was happy with the old system and now depressed about the new system. i've also noticed a trend in the forums. all those upset with the new sp system are rank 31 or more. all those rank 30 or less seem relatively happy. . . . i dunno how i feel about this game anymore. although the one thing i do know is that i am very very happy with everything else in the update. the sp ruined it for me though. in my opinion this game went from a C+ to a C-.


Ya, and if you had started playing today after the SP changes you'd be rank 1, so get over it.


My point is that I put in a lot of time to earn the rank i have. Now that the system has changed i should have earned much more based on there new system. easily at least another 50k sp if not more. now that sp is just gone no where to be found. Instead of feeling accomplished i now feel gipped. So don't be a jerk because i voiced an opinion.


Sorry, I just have to get in on this one, but like another poster said: get over it. MMOs change constantly and complaining that they changed something and you missed out won't get you any sympathy at all. I don't like to bring up other MMORPGs but World of Warcraft comes to mind in this case. Right before the launch of the first expansion, Burning Crusade, Blizzard decided to overhaul the honor system and allow players obtain very good gear in a short amount as opposed to before where obtaining said gear would take weeks and weeks of serious playing. Are you also going to complain when they finally release Chocobos and Airships, saying that it isn't fair because you had to walk everywhere since day one and everyone who plays afterward can use a Chocobo right away? I understand your frustration but saying that the SP change "ruined" the game for you is silly.

#101 Nov 26 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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802 posts
Skyfaller wrote:
Humster wrote:
Ok long story short. Rank 20 Marauder Physical 40

Before patch on Green and Yellow Sea puks, solo.

SP: 0 - 325
Exp 60 - 80

After patch

SP: 60 - 80
Exp: 150 - 250

Is it me or something is not right here?



Difference is before you could have a string of 3 mobs that netted you very low or zero SP. Now every mob gives SP based on its color. Forget about blues and greens, they are equivalent to EP and Decent con mobs in FF11... very low SP gain unless you kill them in large groups fast (yes you do gain SP with AOE kills now).

Overall the SP gain is higher since it comes in reliably... and it no longer is the mad race to hit as many times as possible, f*ck the rest of the pty mentality when grouping (otherwise you get no SP!).

Bad thing? Party SP is not increased to compensate. A group of 6 tackling a red mob takes longer and gives about the same SP as a player solo killing a yellow (and solo you get kills faster).


Actually if you noticed, it turned from mad race of hits to a mad race of killing as many mobs as possible so you can get the same sp.
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