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Did they somehow programmed SP and EXP mixed up? Follow

#102 Nov 26 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Decent
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mitmystria wrote:
dont know what you guys are fighting but im getting alot of both in leve's im getting over 600SP and 1000exp
just killing stuff orange im getting sp in the 390+'s, red stuff 400-530's


yes something is wrong, why you fighting greens & yellows ???
scared to die?


1) You are pre 20s, you have high physical rank, so, red mobs at that time, don't really mean much

2) You are also using Guardian Favor <-- unless I'm wrong here.

Lets say this, you get 700sp per mob. And per leve you get to kill 10 mobs. And you are ALLOWED to do 10 instead of 8.

Simple maths, 700x10x10 = 70,000sp once every 36hours. So how many leves you going to do to rank up?

Even after you done your leves, PT up and spam mobs and getting 8K sp pre hour, how long can you play? For me, 3hours on a average day. If you take away travel time and time to form up for a PT and fighting with ppl over mobs.

And you do know that how hard red mobs hit when conned red by a rank 20+ class. Even if you can kill them, it just takes too much time and mp to do so.

Edited, Nov 27th 2010 12:23am by Humster
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#103 Nov 26 2010 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Really disappointing to see that SE hasn't caught on to their flaw in progression distribution from XI.

Rather than encouraging players to challenge themselves by providing exponentially increasing returns on increasingly difficult monsters, maximal progression is obtained by killing weak little ***** as rapidly as possible.

There's also the little benefit of not needing as many monsters when people spend more time killing fewer monsters.

I just don't see much that's fun about killing weaklings quickly, unfortunately, at least not after years of doing it in XI.
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#104 Nov 26 2010 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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theweenie wrote:
Humster wrote:
I can't see a target I can reach when the SP is too random, with 0s at times. Now, I can see the SP, but look at the SP bar, and the SP gained per mob, and think about that I'm only Rank 20, whats going to happen at Rank 30+.

I guess If I ever do login again, I'll just mine and chop wood for ppl.
Look at it this way.

Old system: Zerg much high level mob, spam basic attacks to maximize gain which prolongs fight, avoid buffing to maximize healer SP. Gain anywhere between 0-500SP per fight.
vs
New system: Attack moderately higher level mob, actually use the skills you've picked up over the levels which kills faster, buff however you like. Gain at a constant SP rate.

The old system may have let you get to 50 faster (which we don't know that it did yet since we've only just begun to experiment with it), but why bother to get there under the old system? You never used any of the skills you picked up as you leveled. You couldn't, because it would cause your SP to drop.

Now, taking SP out of the equation. Which was more fun? Using the abilities you've gained over the ranks to actually play your class? Or spamming a basic attack for the duration of a prolonged fight?

SE makes a change which gives us an actual combat-related reason to level up, and people are complaining that they can't gain the same SP as the were under the borefest that was the old SP system, under which there wasn't any combat-related reason to rank up. Boring combat vs not boring combat?

For myself, I would gladly take an SP hit if it means I'll get more enjoyable combat. Before the update I was getting roughly 1/2 rank per day. I hated the large group basic attack grinding, so I would do leves, solo, and play in small groups (2-4 other players from my LS). Under the new system I flew through 1.5 ranks in the same amount of time I used to gain only 1/2, doing the exact same thing I was doing before.

Rather than deriving your enjoyment from what number 1-500 shows up in your log after a fight, perhaps try experimenting with the combat system now that it wont kill your SP, unless you would rather hit 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for hours at a time. If you thought the old system was fun, you should check out a game called Cow Clicker. You'd love it.


Dude seriously not everyone press 1111111elvenlololo1111111faceroll1111.
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#105 Nov 26 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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All I have to say is this..I could care less if I was getting 100 sp a mob..or 500 sp a mob. Racing to the top will not make my e-peen any bigger..But At least now I can ENJOY fighting..and utilizing my class abilities..instead of breaking my "1" key spamming basic attacks. I'm sure SE will do adjusting in the future..There's always going to be people complaining...And I'm sure SE themselves will see what needs fixed given time. Then again..Nobody knows what SE has in store later but SE..If they even know themselves..They could very well be preparing for something later on. I've no doubt that SE didn't intend for us to spend our entire DoW grinding time killing marmots after all. Epic, legion, party NM battles for lots of SP? Yes please!

By the way..GLA's shouldn't be complaining at all in this thread..You're earning the same amount of SP for SHIELD and SWORD now. =P
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#106 Nov 26 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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So if am I getting this all correct

If you were a solo player you just got a big bump but its best when you fight blues around your level.

If you grouped a lot you just got effed in the A on SP.

Way i see it SE will fix it but who knows when.

Has anybody been thinking this may all actually be a legitimate bug that was not intended?
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#107 Nov 26 2010 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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mainvein wrote:
So if am I getting this all correct

If you were a solo player you just got a big bump but its best when you fight blues around your level.

If you grouped a lot you just got effed in the A on SP.

Way i see it SE will fix it but who knows when.

Has anybody been thinking this may all actually be a legitimate bug that was not intended?


If it was, they'd have addressed it by now i'd say. Could possibly be taking the weekend to think about it though.

Anyway, solo leveling is pretty much the way to go now. Why bother partying for the measly advantages it offers.

Back to crafting until SP is fixed, I guess.
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#108 Nov 26 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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mainvein wrote:
So if am I getting this all correct

If you were a solo player you just got a big bump but its best when you fight blues around your level.

If you grouped a lot you just got effed in the A on SP.

Way i see it SE will fix it but who knows when.

Has anybody been thinking this may all actually be a legitimate bug that was not intended?


Under rank 20 solo, yes. Above that, even when grp gives you now or less the same sp, its better you grp up, cause you'll go crazy doing it alone. The first signs is that you begin talking to yourself in your head, then you being to talk to the mobs you killing and then your equipment.
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#109 Nov 27 2010 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Doing my head in.
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#110 Nov 27 2010 at 5:57 AM Rating: Decent
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If it was, they'd have addressed it by now i'd say. Could possibly be taking the weekend to think about it though.


I doubt they'd address it during weekend. If it's not dealt with during next week (at least in the "Known Issues" topic) then we'll probably see a change in the December patch, as it wouldn't be a bug.

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#111 Nov 27 2010 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
If it was, they'd have addressed it by now i'd say. Could possibly be taking the weekend to think about it though.


I doubt they'd address it during weekend. If it's not dealt with during next week (at least in the "Known Issues" topic) then we'll probably see a change in the December patch, as it wouldn't be a bug.


Maybe just maybe they realized if they left group bonus as it was the new sp would make it so easy to hit 50 that they wouldn't have a buffer between now and the content updates later this year. Either or way its a semi rough road on one hand waiting for a party can be tiresome and troubling often leading to a feeling of wanting to solo on the other hand having this type of problem may crush group dynamics as there are no gear drops to hunt. Either way I like the patch just hope they explain this or fix it and keep on the ball.
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#112 Nov 27 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Default
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I haven't posted in this forums in a while but I've been reading this thread and I have a few questions for those of you who are having bad exp gain. How grossly over leveled is the weapon you're using and I don't mean it as an insult.

I have a small hypothesis going on that someone might want to check out. As most people should know by now having a weapon that is way over the optimal rank will reduce the amount of SP one can gain. So it comes down to this some people have been giving numbers with the rank they are and what color the mob is to them but they're leaving out the variable of what rank their weapon is.

Hypothesis: Player using a weapon when it is closer to the optimal rank of the weapon will receive more SP. When grouping all party members who have weapons that are outside of the optimal rank reduce experience gain.


Tests: Get a weapon closer you your rank and compare SP gain when compared to previously used weapon. When in a group have players use weapons use a mix of Optimal rank weapons and non optimal rank weapons record SP gained. After which have all players use Optimal rank weapons and record findings.

Now I haven't been able to test this yet as I just changed servers and I'm restarting my character. So to whoever feels like doing this test it out and post your findings here. Also as a side note though I doubt it would effect the outcome much try not wearing armor the is outside of optimal rank as well and then wear it to see if it has any effect.
#113 Nov 27 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
theweenie wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.
The SP change is fine for both soloing and grouping. You just can't group in the exact same way as the prior system and expect the same results.

Get into a smaller group and roam around killing mobs a little higher than your ranks. Not 10-15 ranks higher than you like before. While you may not be getting 500SP every kill, you can use your weaponskills to kill faster, allowing you to rack up far more SP over time.


I think this is the solution.

I'm trying very hard to do my part not to let this devolve into another debate about how an MMO should work and how one should be played, but at the end of the day it all boils down to what you're doing and what you're expecting to be rewarded for.

Based on KnocturnalOne's experiment, they started out on a yellow mob (solo) that earned them ~100 SP. They then added someone to their group that was pretty close to their rank and illed another and got ~70 SP (30% less). And so to my way of thinking, you've got twice the people and hence should be able to kill each mob twice as fast + share a wider variety of buffs. So assuming you're in an area with a reasonable mob density, you kill twice as fast for 2/3 the xp per kill, and after two kills you're ahead of what you might have been in terms of SP as a solo player. Even if you're having to run a bit from one mob to the next you're still killing those mobs twice as fast, so for every minute you spend in combat you're actually earning more.

So then if you want to up the SP maybe you would find mobs a few ranks higher. Nothing major...theoretically high enough in rank to award more SP but low enough in rank that the kill rate scales appropriately so you still come out ahead.

And this is the part that, if anything I said so far didn't, is going to **** people off:

Working as intended.

I love seeing people in groups having fun. I love having fun in a group. I enjoy grouping (with the right people). But I don't expect to be rewarded for anything just because I'm in a group. I have to be accomplishing something in that group that I couldn't accomplish on my own if I want to feel entitled to say I should be getting more.

And now we continue testing and try to find a sweet spot...a reasonable balance between mob rank, time to kill, and SP gained per kill.

I'll admit, the only reason I didn't mock people in their 15 person groups killing mobs 20 ranks above them is because...they were killing mobs 20 ranks above them. Hard to find fault with that. But when they're milking a system that is tuned so that sloppy play + party size = 5-10 times the SP a solo player can hope to get, I'm sorry but it's just broken. When you're encouraging people to soak all kinds of damage so your healers can maximize on SP potential, it's just broken. There was just SO much wrong with the way group play was shaping up and I didn't want to be the dink who takes it out on the players because I have to give them credit for being innovative and working with what they were given.

What it sounds like to me now, however, is that we're back to a scenario where the skilled players with appropriate builds and gear will be rewarded because they'll be able to kill things faster and keep up a strong pace that will allow them to progress faster than a solo player. They'll be earning a faster rate of progression instead of having it handed to them simply because they accepted a group invite, and that, to me, is what MMOs are all about. It's not about being rewarded for being in a group, it's being rewarded for leveraging the advantages of a group to accomplish what a solo player can't accomplish.

Will SE tweak and tune the system going forward? Quite possibly. At least now we're at a baseline for consistency.


Couldn't have said it better myself. This is the kind of person I hope Square is listening to. Amen to you brother! :)
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#114 Nov 27 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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My personal opinion is this: I am not in the mood for another "grindy" game system. I, quite honestly, found the large parties on high rank mobs to be a nice change of pace from the usual kill-them-as-fast-as-you-can-for-maximum-xp-gain grind that you find in most MMOs.

I prefer fewer fights for more SP over the option of committing mass genocide on Coblyns.
#115 Nov 27 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Back to FFXI style exping: don't overcamp (kill Ts and VTs rather than IT++) and zerg down mobs as quickly as possible. lolskillchainsbattleregimen



Edited, Nov 27th 2010 2:41pm by bsphil
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#116 Nov 27 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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mistachristufa6 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
theweenie wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.
The SP change is fine for both soloing and grouping. You just can't group in the exact same way as the prior system and expect the same results.

Get into a smaller group and roam around killing mobs a little higher than your ranks. Not 10-15 ranks higher than you like before. While you may not be getting 500SP every kill, you can use your weaponskills to kill faster, allowing you to rack up far more SP over time.


I think this is the solution.

I'm trying very hard to do my part not to let this devolve into another debate about how an MMO should work and how one should be played, but at the end of the day it all boils down to what you're doing and what you're expecting to be rewarded for.

Based on KnocturnalOne's experiment, they started out on a yellow mob (solo) that earned them ~100 SP. They then added someone to their group that was pretty close to their rank and illed another and got ~70 SP (30% less). And so to my way of thinking, you've got twice the people and hence should be able to kill each mob twice as fast + share a wider variety of buffs. So assuming you're in an area with a reasonable mob density, you kill twice as fast for 2/3 the xp per kill, and after two kills you're ahead of what you might have been in terms of SP as a solo player. Even if you're having to run a bit from one mob to the next you're still killing those mobs twice as fast, so for every minute you spend in combat you're actually earning more.

So then if you want to up the SP maybe you would find mobs a few ranks higher. Nothing major...theoretically high enough in rank to award more SP but low enough in rank that the kill rate scales appropriately so you still come out ahead.

And this is the part that, if anything I said so far didn't, is going to **** people off:

Working as intended.

I love seeing people in groups having fun. I love having fun in a group. I enjoy grouping (with the right people). But I don't expect to be rewarded for anything just because I'm in a group. I have to be accomplishing something in that group that I couldn't accomplish on my own if I want to feel entitled to say I should be getting more.

And now we continue testing and try to find a sweet spot...a reasonable balance between mob rank, time to kill, and SP gained per kill.

I'll admit, the only reason I didn't mock people in their 15 person groups killing mobs 20 ranks above them is because...they were killing mobs 20 ranks above them. Hard to find fault with that. But when they're milking a system that is tuned so that sloppy play + party size = 5-10 times the SP a solo player can hope to get, I'm sorry but it's just broken. When you're encouraging people to soak all kinds of damage so your healers can maximize on SP potential, it's just broken. There was just SO much wrong with the way group play was shaping up and I didn't want to be the dink who takes it out on the players because I have to give them credit for being innovative and working with what they were given.

What it sounds like to me now, however, is that we're back to a scenario where the skilled players with appropriate builds and gear will be rewarded because they'll be able to kill things faster and keep up a strong pace that will allow them to progress faster than a solo player. They'll be earning a faster rate of progression instead of having it handed to them simply because they accepted a group invite, and that, to me, is what MMOs are all about. It's not about being rewarded for being in a group, it's being rewarded for leveraging the advantages of a group to accomplish what a solo player can't accomplish.

Will SE tweak and tune the system going forward? Quite possibly. At least now we're at a baseline for consistency.


Couldn't have said it better myself. This is the kind of person I hope Square is listening to. Amen to you brother! :)


Before you start applauding someone, try leveling a job post 20 and then come back and see if you feel the same way.
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#117 Nov 27 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Back to FFXI style exping: don't overcamp (kill Ts and VTs rather than IT++) and zerg down mobs as quickly as possible. lolskillchainsbattleregimen



Edited, Nov 27th 2010 2:41pm by bsphil


Except in FFXIV you're not chaining T's & VT's, you're chaining TW/EP mobs...
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FFXI (Retired):
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#118 Nov 27 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Good
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TheFlyingGoat wrote:
I haven't posted in this forums in a while but I've been reading this thread and I have a few questions for those of you who are having bad exp gain. How grossly over leveled is the weapon you're using and I don't mean it as an insult.

I have a small hypothesis going on that someone might want to check out. As most people should know by now having a weapon that is way over the optimal rank will reduce the amount of SP one can gain. So it comes down to this some people have been giving numbers with the rank they are and what color the mob is to them but they're leaving out the variable of what rank their weapon is.

Hypothesis: Player using a weapon when it is closer to the optimal rank of the weapon will receive more SP. When grouping all party members who have weapons that are outside of the optimal rank reduce experience gain.


Tests: Get a weapon closer you your rank and compare SP gain when compared to previously used weapon. When in a group have players use weapons use a mix of Optimal rank weapons and non optimal rank weapons record SP gained. After which have all players use Optimal rank weapons and record findings.

Now I haven't been able to test this yet as I just changed servers and I'm restarting my character. So to whoever feels like doing this test it out and post your findings here. Also as a side note though I doubt it would effect the outcome much try not wearing armor the is outside of optimal rank as well and then wear it to see if it has any effect.


Wrong SP system, you're talking about the old one. The new one does not care what you do and what you carry, it only cares about your rank and the mobs rank, period. You can use a lvl 1 stick and lvl 50 stick and whack that coblyn, it will give you exactly the same amount of SP/EXP when it die, that's the new system. And unless you think using a r32 Spear at r32/33 LNC is grossly over leveled, then I have nothing else to say to you.
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#119 Nov 27 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Back to FFXI style exping: don't overcamp (kill Ts and VTs rather than IT++) and zerg down mobs as quickly as possible. lolskillchainsbattleregimen



Edited, Nov 27th 2010 2:41pm by bsphil


Except in FFXIV you're not chaining T's & VT's, you're chaining TW/EP mobs...


We don;t get bonus chaining them :(
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#120 Nov 27 2010 at 11:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
TheFlyingGoat wrote:
I haven't posted in this forums in a while but I've been reading this thread and I have a few questions for those of you who are having bad exp gain. How grossly over leveled is the weapon you're using and I don't mean it as an insult.

I have a small hypothesis going on that someone might want to check out. As most people should know by now having a weapon that is way over the optimal rank will reduce the amount of SP one can gain. So it comes down to this some people have been giving numbers with the rank they are and what color the mob is to them but they're leaving out the variable of what rank their weapon is.

Hypothesis: Player using a weapon when it is closer to the optimal rank of the weapon will receive more SP. When grouping all party members who have weapons that are outside of the optimal rank reduce experience gain.


Tests: Get a weapon closer you your rank and compare SP gain when compared to previously used weapon. When in a group have players use weapons use a mix of Optimal rank weapons and non optimal rank weapons record SP gained. After which have all players use Optimal rank weapons and record findings.

Now I haven't been able to test this yet as I just changed servers and I'm restarting my character. So to whoever feels like doing this test it out and post your findings here. Also as a side note though I doubt it would effect the outcome much try not wearing armor the is outside of optimal rank as well and then wear it to see if it has any effect.


Wrong SP system, you're talking about the old one. The new one does not care what you do and what you carry, it only cares about your rank and the mobs rank, period. You can use a lvl 1 stick and lvl 50 stick and whack that coblyn, it will give you exactly the same amount of SP/EXP when it die, that's the new system. And unless you think using a r32 Spear at r32/33 LNC is grossly over leveled, then I have nothing else to say to you.


Was merely an Idea. The lack of equipment constraints right now is a bit of a strange feature. I've yet to play any other MMO that allowed you to wear armor outside of your class or level. So the Idea just crossed my mind. And as for how to "new" experience system works its pretty stupid. Finally got a chance to test it today. One where the EXP is given to you based on your rank and then divided by the amount of party members is a gross discouragement to grouping. Not to mention the ambiguous color system for monster difficulty.
#121 Nov 28 2010 at 1:19 AM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:

Before you start applauding someone, try leveling a job post 20 and then come back and see if you feel the same way.


You're going to want to stop throwing that around. It's simple math. You don't have to have first hand experience to be able to view the numbers others are posting and put things together.

BUT...

I did just hit 20 with a combat class tonight and it's clear that it's not what SE changed that is at the heart of the issue, but what SE didn't change. Prior to the patch, people hitting rank 20 almost universally commented that it seemed like they were getting far fewer SP/kill than they were prior to 20. Hence the frequent comment that after rank 20, the only way to get reasonable SP was in a group. But not just any group...a large group fighting mobs way, way above the rank of the group members. By leveraging the increased SP from fighting those higher rank mobs and extending the duration of the fights, people were able to sidestep the way SE tuned the pre-patch SP system. Not only that, but they were consistently able to reach the SP cap in a lot of cases.

It's very easy as a player to fall into the trap of thinking that just because it works and you're happy with the results that you're doing what the developers intended. 500SP is the cap, therefore that should be the goal at all times, right? The way the game is tuned (ie. HP) means we can survive these fights with mobs so far above our level so that's obviously what SE wanted us to be doing, right?

Now let's be clear...I'm not saying that large group eft/raptor parties were an exploit. This is a situation where it crosses into the realm of "clever use of game mechanics." It's not reaching too far to suggest that SE created the 500SP cap to offset the potential for a lucky streak. Random is random. SE was okay with the idea of a random system that could ultimately lead to receiving no SP at all from killing a mob at or even above your rank if the "dice" didn't favor you that fight, but they opted to cap the top end so that you didn't fluke out and score exorbitant amounts of SP when the dice were on your side. But players found that cap and they found a way to consistently hit that cap and suddenly it becomes the norm.

I believe others have posted their experiences in line with mine but I'll share mine anyways. As a rank 19 Conjurer decimating the wildlife population of La Noscea around Skull Valley, I was getting a pretty consistent 110-130 SP/kill from dodos. As soon as I hit 20 I thumped the nearest dodo and got 53 SP. The way the system is currently tuned, SP gains are cut by roughly half when you hit 20. Instead of reducing your chances to gain SP with any particular action at and above rank 20, they've just flat out halved the gains.

Edit: Scratch that, they didn't halve SP gains from rank 20 on, they doubled SP gains from rank 1-19. Silly distinction, you say? Think about what killing an EM mob was worth in FFXI. They've borrowed the exact same system as FFXI, only there are no xp chains.

This is not an issue of the party bonus not working. It is. People have demonstrated the math. SP earned is divided amongst the number of people in the party and the bonus is applied to the tune of 40% in a duo and likely scaling up from there as more people are added.

The issue is a direct result of SE's mind boggling decision to halve SP gain at rank 20. I've never heard of an MMO developer doing this. If they want to extent the progression curve to keep people busy between updates and expansions, they do it explicitly through the amount of xp (sp) required to move from one level (rank) to the next. They don't scale up the xp (sp) requirements and scale back the rewards on a kill per kill basis.

The solution is still the same: solo or take advantage of the party bonus. The solution, I assure you, is not to hold out for SE to change the system so that you're once again seeing 500SP/fight. It's obvious that these changes were NOT to address the imbalance in SP gains between dps and healers even though that was one of the "benefits". These changes were to address a situation where players had found a way to take SE's system and make it work in their favor in a way for which SE never intended, only this time SE couldn't issue a statement saying that if you had been in an eft/raptor party any time since launch to report yourself to a GM for a rollback or risk a ban, because it wasn't an exploit.

I think that something SE is going to have to learn is that even when you botch a launch and don't get as many players as you might have hoped for, everything you do is still being put in the hands of tens/hundreds of thousands of people and the odds of them not figuring out what's going on are slim to none. I'm not sure what would have possessed SE to reach the conclusion that slashing SP gains at and above rank 20 was going to be something their players would be happy about, but that's what they did.

Edited, Nov 27th 2010 11:39pm by Aurelius
#122 Nov 28 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
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My fiancee and I found earlier tonight that we could either steamroll blue Dodos for 200ish SP or barely survive against Yellow Aldgoat Nannies at 250sh SP per kill (which takes a good deal longer than it takes to kill a dodo).

So basically, "murder blue mobs as fast as you can" is the new best way to level in this game, which is a crying shame because fighting hard mobs is more enjoyable, just far less rewarding on all fronts. :\
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#123 Nov 28 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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This is not an issue of the party bonus not working. It is. People have demonstrated the math. SP earned is divided amongst the number of people in the party and the bonus is applied to the tune of 40% in a duo and likely scaling up from there as more people are added.


Even if this is not a bug, I don't think they intended it to work this way.

I see what they tried to do:

Quote:
The issue is a direct result of SE's mind boggling decision to halve SP gain at rank 20.


And this is the key to it.

It is clear that ranks 1 through 20 act as the tutorial to the game. You get lots of skill up by yourself, and you don't need to rely on others to progress fast. While duoing and trioing may be better than fighting alone pre-20, it is not by any means necessary. It is extremely easy to make a comparison to XI and it's leveling curve (when do you start grouping, and why not earlier?).

Once you got higher level <in XI>, monsters of the same level would have much more HP and while they would still give the same amount of exp, it would be wiser to fight them in a group rather than alone. At some point it becomes nigh impossible to solo depending on your job.

XIV seems to use a different mechanic, but works in the same principle. When you get higher rank <in XIV> (20 in this case), the exp gained from monsters is halved. While I do not know whether there are other changes, by what I am hearing soloing is still quite possible at higher levels too, even better than grouping right now. Therefore, the HP of the monsters does not scale as much in proportion to the damage you deal as in XI.

Now, as far as the EXP system goes they seem to be quite similar right now. But the difference is, that while in XI the HP and scaling of monsters made soloing slower (or even impossible) than grouping, XIV halves the skill you gain to achieve similar results.

However, when in XI you could compensate to the scaling of mobs by having more members in your party and therefore gain as much, if not more exp than you did during your early soloing levels, in XIV right now such compensation doesn't seem to exist (as much, at least).

What this would mean in XIV terms, is that while fighting alone skill gain is halved, by having more members in your group the skill gain would slowly climb back up to what it was pre-rank 20, with the sweet spot being somewhere between 4 and 10 I guess.

Therefore, what is accomplished in XI by keeping the EXP same and increasing monster strength in relation to player, is accomplished in XIV by halving the exp yet giving a bonus to people fighting together which would create the same result, although not in a way that it hurts small groups or soloers as much as it did in XI.

Right now, though the system works the same way it does in XI, so what they need to do is change skill gain so it doesn't work like exp does, but rather make it so there is a set amount of skill gain you can get from a monster no matter how many party members you have, and with more party members you get a bonus to that set amount of skill.

It makes a lot of sense, and I think they are very close to a break-through here. Just not quite there yet.

And if we want to go beyond just fixing the system, they could award players who fight harder monsters (with a larger bonus/multiplier? Exp chains?). Lots of things they can do.

The problem I see here is that if you have only 30 minutes a day to play, you should be able to progress at a steady pace... while I thought guildleves would be the answer to this, I'm not so sure anymore. I think more needs to be done in that regard.

Guardian's Favor might be the answer here. It almost works like an EXP ring, and if they add something similar on top of GF I think they may be on to something. GF itself should probably, on top of boosting the skill gain, remove the -50% skill gain penalty above rank 20 (maybe even for a set amount of monsters outside the leve too). That way those with really no time to group at all will be able to progress but yet not make the system broken for other, more hardcore players.

Although still more problems arise from doing it that way.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 11:00am by Hyanmen
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#124 Nov 28 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Default
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I read every post here and i'm surprised no one thought that maybe SE doesn't want us to be leveling past 20?!
Seriously the game is pretty much in beta, none of us have paid a dime for monthly subscriptions and their banking on more ps3 users than pc users.Their aren't even main story quests past 20. Their's no end game content, the content set up suggests that the game will revolve more around questing, doing leve's, Behest, and killing NM's, over 4 hour a day grind sessions.

I also don't notice much of a difference between the monsters that are blue and green or yellow. They all take relatively the same amount of time to kill as long as its the same monster type, so it makes sense the exp difference between a blue and a green is way different.

I can agree party exp should be improved but not anywhere near to the extent that it was before this patch. Pre-patch it was possible to get decent sp in a party past 20 but now no one can get decent exp. I agree that players should have an incentive to party but i don't think it should ever be to the extent that it was in ffxi or before the November patch. Most players don't have the time to log on and commit themselves to 2 hours of grinding every day, especially after spending time in town,doing leve's, and leveling a craft.

The game is different now, I think a lot of you need to reevaluate a new way to level and not worry so much about how long its gonna take you to get to 50 at this point in time. I think its rather ignorant to not even ponder the possibility that maybe SE doesn't want everyone to hit max level at a reasonable pace. I think the goal of ffxiv's design philosophy is to somewhat move away from the rush to max level, its rather difficult considering the lack of content but if they were to allow people to get to max level now it would ruin a lot of the content updates planned mostly around the 20-40 ranges. SE even stated they wanted to help get players to level 20 where most of the NM content begins.

Remember were all still playing a beta only now we get to keep the progress we make, so the rules have changed a bit.

(side note: I think its also hilarious how SE knows they can abuse the 30+ players more than anyone, you guys are already hooked and are clearly not the players SE is worried about keeping right now. The amount of people that returned in the past 2 days is proof that a lot of people are still following FFXIV's success, that in mind i think SE's got a few rounds of exp balancing before anyone gives up for good.)
#125 Nov 28 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Pre-patch it was possible to get decent sp in a party past 20 but now no one can get decent exp.


I hear reports of people getting 10-14k exp/hr above rank 30.

Needs tweaking of course but the "world is ending" reports are quite silly if this is true.
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#126 Nov 28 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

Before you start applauding someone, try leveling a job post 20 and then come back and see if you feel the same way.


You're going to want to stop throwing that around. It's simple math. You don't have to have first hand experience to be able to view the numbers others are posting and put things together.

BUT...

I did just hit 20 with a combat class tonight and it's clear that it's not what SE changed that is at the heart of the issue, but what SE didn't change. Prior to the patch, people hitting rank 20 almost universally commented that it seemed like they were getting far fewer SP/kill than they were prior to 20. Hence the frequent comment that after rank 20, the only way to get reasonable SP was in a group. But not just any group...a large group fighting mobs way, way above the rank of the group members. By leveraging the increased SP from fighting those higher rank mobs and extending the duration of the fights, people were able to sidestep the way SE tuned the pre-patch SP system. Not only that, but they were consistently able to reach the SP cap in a lot of cases.

It's very easy as a player to fall into the trap of thinking that just because it works and you're happy with the results that you're doing what the developers intended. 500SP is the cap, therefore that should be the goal at all times, right? The way the game is tuned (ie. HP) means we can survive these fights with mobs so far above our level so that's obviously what SE wanted us to be doing, right?

Now let's be clear...I'm not saying that large group eft/raptor parties were an exploit. This is a situation where it crosses into the realm of "clever use of game mechanics." It's not reaching too far to suggest that SE created the 500SP cap to offset the potential for a lucky streak. Random is random. SE was okay with the idea of a random system that could ultimately lead to receiving no SP at all from killing a mob at or even above your rank if the "dice" didn't favor you that fight, but they opted to cap the top end so that you didn't fluke out and score exorbitant amounts of SP when the dice were on your side. But players found that cap and they found a way to consistently hit that cap and suddenly it becomes the norm.

I believe others have posted their experiences in line with mine but I'll share mine anyways. As a rank 19 Conjurer decimating the wildlife population of La Noscea around Skull Valley, I was getting a pretty consistent 110-130 SP/kill from dodos. As soon as I hit 20 I thumped the nearest dodo and got 53 SP. The way the system is currently tuned, SP gains are cut by roughly half when you hit 20. Instead of reducing your chances to gain SP with any particular action at and above rank 20, they've just flat out halved the gains.

Edit: Scratch that, they didn't halve SP gains from rank 20 on, they doubled SP gains from rank 1-19. Silly distinction, you say? Think about what killing an EM mob was worth in FFXI. They've borrowed the exact same system as FFXI, only there are no xp chains.

This is not an issue of the party bonus not working. It is. People have demonstrated the math. SP earned is divided amongst the number of people in the party and the bonus is applied to the tune of 40% in a duo and likely scaling up from there as more people are added.

The issue is a direct result of SE's mind boggling decision to halve SP gain at rank 20. I've never heard of an MMO developer doing this. If they want to extent the progression curve to keep people busy between updates and expansions, they do it explicitly through the amount of xp (sp) required to move from one level (rank) to the next. They don't scale up the xp (sp) requirements and scale back the rewards on a kill per kill basis.

The solution is still the same: solo or take advantage of the party bonus. The solution, I assure you, is not to hold out for SE to change the system so that you're once again seeing 500SP/fight. It's obvious that these changes were NOT to address the imbalance in SP gains between dps and healers even though that was one of the "benefits". These changes were to address a situation where players had found a way to take SE's system and make it work in their favor in a way for which SE never intended, only this time SE couldn't issue a statement saying that if you had been in an eft/raptor party any time since launch to report yourself to a GM for a rollback or risk a ban, because it wasn't an exploit.

I think that something SE is going to have to learn is that even when you botch a launch and don't get as many players as you might have hoped for, everything you do is still being put in the hands of tens/hundreds of thousands of people and the odds of them not figuring out what's going on are slim to none. I'm not sure what would have possessed SE to reach the conclusion that slashing SP gains at and above rank 20 was going to be something their players would be happy about, but that's what they did.

Edited, Nov 27th 2010 11:39pm by Aurelius


I will throw it around all I **** please. And none of your elaborate rambling/speculation is going to change my opinion. I've posted my reasons as to why this system flat out, sucks. I've posted data to support why it sucks. If it's so great that all these people pre-20 (and let's not even talk about into the 30's) have no issue with, then post your party setup, party targets & what you were able to accomplish in that group. If you guys think mass killing TW/EP mobs is even remotely fun, then well, I have nothing left to say. Have fun playing I guess, but that's not what I signed up for.

I've said OVER and OVER it's NOT THE SYSTEM that's a problem, it's THE SCALE OF SP that's a problem.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 8:38am by KnocturnalOne
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PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#127 Nov 28 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Pre-patch it was possible to get decent sp in a party past 20 but now no one can get decent exp.


I hear reports of people getting 10-14k exp/hr above rank 30.

Needs tweaking of course but the "world is ending" reports are quite silly if this is true.


Yeah sure, I can get that an hour with my 30+ job like I did two nights straight. But I can also get carpal tunnel while I am at it in a week or two from pressing 1 with an occasional 3.

The reward for fighting a strong sp monster is backwards. You get far more sp fighting/zerging too weak monsters now then you do anything else. Its the exact same thing before (in the sense of no "jobs" in a party, hitting a single button relentlessly and requiring zero skill to play) except backwards. Now you fight too weak monsters or easy prey on a extinction scale.

Does it work? Yeah, sure in a base, mind numbing soul draining kind of way. Does it require any skill, true team play, thought or base cognitive abilities? Not in the slightest way whatsoever.

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#128 Nov 28 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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I just can't believe this is a permanent situation...
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#129 Nov 28 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Default
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ffxiv has to be full of the dumbest community of players of any mmo. naturally ymmv and there are exceptions to every rule. take from this what you will.

i mean, i know thats crass but it is that hard to comprehend/grasp? you can actually gain sp quicker and more consistantly than before. and no theres no special formula, just like in every mmo in days gone by. a mob is worth a certain amount of xp based on level, and thats what you get for killing it. every time.
#130 Nov 28 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
I will throw it around all I **** please. And none of your elaborate rambling/speculation is going to change my opinion. I've posted my reasons as to why this system flat out, sucks. I've posted data to support why it sucks. If it's so great that all these people pre-20 (and let's not even talk about into the 30's) have no issue with, then post your party setup, party targets & what you were able to accomplish in that group. If you guys think mass killing TW/EP mobs is even remotely fun, then well, I have nothing left to say. Have fun playing I guess, but that's not what I signed up for.

I've said OVER and OVER it's NOT THE SYSTEM that's a problem, it's THE SCALE OF SP that's a problem.


You need to stop taking your childish angst out on us. Seriously. All you've done up to this point is whine and cry and then sit back and wait to be spoon fed a fix.

You got used to gaining SP in a way that wasn't what the developers intended. At all. If they had intended for that ind of thing to be possible, post-patch eft/raptor parties would have been earning ~500SP/kill, but they weren't, were they? They were earning a lot less, weren't they?

So why aren't you out experimenting with mob types and group sizes? Why aren't you contributing instead of flailing and blaming and crying over it? Make a contribution or be a blight...it's your choice.
#131 Nov 28 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Vackashken wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Pre-patch it was possible to get decent sp in a party past 20 but now no one can get decent exp.


I hear reports of people getting 10-14k exp/hr above rank 30.

Needs tweaking of course but the "world is ending" reports are quite silly if this is true.


Yeah sure, I can get that an hour with my 30+ job like I did two nights straight. But I can also get carpal tunnel while I am at it in a week or two from pressing 1 with an occasional 3.


Hey...you may not like it, but let's not overdramatize it. 12 million people play an MMO that is more active than FFXIV in terms of "button mashing" and none of them are crying about CTS.

Quote:
The reward for fighting a strong sp monster is backwards. You get far more sp fighting/zerging too weak monsters now then you do anything else. Its the exact same thing before (in the sense of no "jobs" in a party, hitting a single button relentlessly and requiring zero skill to play) except backwards. Now you fight too weak monsters or easy prey on a extinction scale.

Does it work? Yeah, sure in a base, mind numbing soul draining kind of way. Does it require any skill, true team play, thought or base cognitive abilities? Not in the slightest way whatsoever.


Were you complaining about eft parties requiring no thought before the patch?

Have you tried small groups with battle regimens to see if you can't cut down on the kill time for tougher mobs?

Just sayin'. Some are going to cry and snivel. Some are going to experiment and try to help. Which are you?
#132 Nov 28 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

Hey...you may not like it, but let's not overdramatize it. 12 million people play an MMO that is more active than FFXIV in terms of "button mashing" and none of them are crying about CTS.


Or I could have just been saying that in a glib way to accent the total lack of needing to press an other keys but 1-2 in a jackhammer fashion relentlessly.

Glad to see you picked up on it.
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#133 Nov 28 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Vackashken wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

Hey...you may not like it, but let's not overdramatize it. 12 million people play an MMO that is more active than FFXIV in terms of "button mashing" and none of them are crying about CTS.


Or I could have just been saying that in a glib way to accent the total lack of needing to press an other keys but 1-2 in a jackhammer fashion relentlessly.

Glad to see you picked up on it.


What class are you playing that everything is so faceroll? There's not a single class I've played that is so limited, even in the lower ranks, and I've played all of them except Lancer and Archer.
#134 Nov 28 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Vackashken wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

Hey...you may not like it, but let's not overdramatize it. 12 million people play an MMO that is more active than FFXIV in terms of "button mashing" and none of them are crying about CTS.


Or I could have just been saying that in a glib way to accent the total lack of needing to press an other keys but 1-2 in a jackhammer fashion relentlessly.

Glad to see you picked up on it.


What class are you playing that everything is so faceroll? There's not a single class I've played that is so limited, even in the lower ranks, and I've played all of them except Lancer and Archer.


Why are you asking me that and what does it have to do with what I said?
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#135 Nov 28 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Vackashken wrote:


Why are you asking me that and what does it have to do with what I said?


Ahh, now I understand what you were getting at. Glib doesn't always translate so well over teh intartoobs.
#136 Nov 28 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
I will throw it around all I **** please. And none of your elaborate rambling/speculation is going to change my opinion. I've posted my reasons as to why this system flat out, sucks. I've posted data to support why it sucks. If it's so great that all these people pre-20 (and let's not even talk about into the 30's) have no issue with, then post your party setup, party targets & what you were able to accomplish in that group. If you guys think mass killing TW/EP mobs is even remotely fun, then well, I have nothing left to say. Have fun playing I guess, but that's not what I signed up for.

I've said OVER and OVER it's NOT THE SYSTEM that's a problem, it's THE SCALE OF SP that's a problem.


You need to stop taking your childish angst out on us. Seriously. All you've done up to this point is whine and cry and then sit back and wait to be spoon fed a fix.

You got used to gaining SP in a way that wasn't what the developers intended. At all. If they had intended for that ind of thing to be possible, post-patch eft/raptor parties would have been earning ~500SP/kill, but they weren't, were they? They were earning a lot less, weren't they?

So why aren't you out experimenting with mob types and group sizes? Why aren't you contributing instead of flailing and blaming and crying over it? Make a contribution or be a blight...it's your choice.


I am not taking anything on others, just you specifically, because you think you are the holy grail of all things FFXIV related. I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not, and it's the reason why many on here think your an elitist **** (the word the rhymes with slick). And maybe you should get your facts straight, I HAVE made a contribution by being one of the first people to perform tests on all different rank monsters with various party sizes and post those results on here.

There is a reason why the majority playing the game have beef with the current SP scale for those leveling post 20.

p.s. I never said I "liked" the SP system before it, it was flawed as well, and it still is, just in a different way.

____________________________
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PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#137 Nov 28 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:

I am not taking anything on others, just you specifically, because you think you are the holy grail of all things FFXIV related. I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not, and it's the reason why many on here think your an elitist **** (the word the rhymes with slick). And maybe you should get your facts straight, I HAVE made a contribution by being one of the first people to perform tests on all different rank monsters with various party sizes and post those results on here.


Ya, after I gave you the idea for the testing. First you were all, "QQ I don't understand" and then you were "QQ I'm sleepy" and then you came back and did the exact same test I recommended and threw in the towel. Did you think to run some tests on orange/low red mobs? I don't think you did. I think you're sulking and whining and waiting for someone else to tell you how to play. Real contribution there, sport.

Quote:
There is a reason why the majority playing the game have beef with the current SP scale for those leveling post 20.

p.s. I never said I "liked" the SP system before it, it was flawed as well, and it still is, just in a different way.



Right, they don't like it because it's going to take them "too long" to get to the non-existent endgame content. Gotcha.
#138 Nov 28 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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I don't like it because it rewards killing blue con mobs more than killing red con mobs which isn't exciting or compelling gameplay.

Right now the easier the mob, the more reward you get in time/kill ratio SP wize, regardless of party size or whatever.

If you get a party of five and move out, you'll all get one or two hits in before the mob dies if you're killing blues for the most SP per hour.

This means for example, as a marauder, i'll use a heavy swing and a skull sunder and it'll be over. Repeat this about 400+ times per level.

This doesn't even mention that you don't need a tank or healer for efficient SP right now, as you just zerg the blue mob it doesn't have a chance to damage anyone.

I'd prefer the opposite, fighting red con mobs which reward more SP and offer a more riveting experience, than fighting blues. Then we'd see the need for tanks and healers again, plus some neat party dynamics. Debuffs, buffs and similar would come back into play, we might also start using Battle Regiments more frequently and see them evolve similar to skillchains, has anyone tested if BR gives XP chain yet even? If that is the case, we might not even have a problem.

Right now the abilities Square Enix have given us aren't being utilized and the party game is bland and boring. The party grind is what got me addicted to FFXI and i'm disappointed it has now been nerfed to what it is.

However, I do believe it will be fixed we just have to be patient. Third SP revision lucky?
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#139 Nov 28 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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tylerbee wrote:
I don't like it because it rewards killing blue con mobs more than killing red con mobs which isn't exciting or compelling gameplay.


So let me see if I've got this straight. Right now we're playing a game where everyone and their dog is wearing gear because it looks cool, or because they got a sweet deal on it, or because they bought it now and it'll let me equip it now and it'll last me 30 ranks. Most players I target in the field have at LEAST a yellow gear damage icon if not a red one. Half the players I check aren't wearing any sort of jewelry at all. The average player doesn't even know wtf a battle regimen is much less how to perform one.

In short, we' play on servers full people who need a harsh lesson in "l2p". Yet we're quick to the point of immediacy to insist that what we do is the best way to do it and when we do it the best way, the rewards don't justify the effort.

Is that what you're saying?

Sounds a lot like NA players shortly after PC launch of FFXI, if you ask me.
#140 Nov 28 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
I don't like it because it rewards killing blue con mobs more than killing red con mobs which isn't exciting or compelling gameplay.


So let me see if I've got this straight. Right now we're playing a game where everyone and their dog is wearing gear because it looks cool, or because they got a sweet deal on it, or because they bought it now and it'll let me equip it now and it'll last me 30 ranks. Most players I target in the field have at LEAST a yellow gear damage icon if not a red one. Half the players I check aren't wearing any sort of jewelry at all. The average player doesn't even know wtf a battle regimen is much less how to perform one.

In short, we' play on servers full people who need a harsh lesson in "l2p". Yet we're quick to the point of immediacy to insist that what we do is the best way to do it and when we do it the best way, the rewards don't justify the effort.

Is that what you're saying?

Sounds a lot like NA players shortly after PC launch of FFXI, if you ask me.


Most people wearing gear because it looks cool is an idiot or moron. Same with anyone who has red damage icons, yellow are acceptable. Same with with players with no jewellery. Same with players unaware of battle regiments.

Anyway, i'm not entirely sure that all of what you've said is true. Most of the players i've come across are intelligent and focused and know exactly what to do in the game, because the game was made for players of a very specific type. Smart with an RPG and MMO history and know what they want from the game. This wasn't made for your average WoW player.

Not every game needs to appeal to the majority and SE games have never been an exception. Final Fantasy has always been a niche franchise and so were MMOS up until WoW. Because of this reason the population of people attracted to this game is very small and it'll always be this way.

Regardless, please explain what you're trying to get across here, I don't see how it is relevant to what I had to say?

I didn't mention anything about SP gain being too slow. I complained about the current system to accrue it being tiresome.
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#141 Nov 28 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Most people wearing gear because it looks cool is an idiot or moron. Same with anyone who has red damage icons, yellow are acceptable. Same with with players with no jewellery. Same with players unaware of battle regiments.

Anyway, i'm not entirely sure that all of what you've said is true. Most of the players i've come across are intelligent and focused and know exactly what to do in the game, because the game was made for players of a very specific type. Smart with an RPG and MMO history and know what they want from the game. This wasn't made for your average WoW player.


I've met plenty of WoW players who could easily play circles around your average FFXI players, so let's be careful about where we take that.

Quote:
Not every game needs to appeal to the majority and SE games have never been an exception. Final Fantasy has always been a niche franchise and so were MMOS up until WoW. Because of this reason the population of people attracted to this game is very small and it'll always be this way.

Regardless, please explain what you're trying to get across here, I don't see how it is relevant to what I had to say?

I didn't mention anything about SP gain being too slow. I complained about the current system to accrue it being tiresome.


I haven't seen anyone post any testing beyond day one shenanigans messing around and reporting what they were earning. Everyone seems to be assuming that they're experts and that the reason fighting tougher mobs isn't worth it is because the experts can't kill them fast enough to justify the extra SP on a kill per kill basis.

It's too soon to be saying we now how to get the most out of the current system.
#142 Nov 28 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Most people wearing gear because it looks cool is an idiot or moron. Same with anyone who has red damage icons, yellow are acceptable. Same with with players with no jewellery. Same with players unaware of battle regiments.

Anyway, i'm not entirely sure that all of what you've said is true. Most of the players i've come across are intelligent and focused and know exactly what to do in the game, because the game was made for players of a very specific type. Smart with an RPG and MMO history and know what they want from the game. This wasn't made for your average WoW player.


I've met plenty of WoW players who could easily play circles around your average FFXI players, so let's be careful about where we take that.

Quote:
Not every game needs to appeal to the majority and SE games have never been an exception. Final Fantasy has always been a niche franchise and so were MMOS up until WoW. Because of this reason the population of people attracted to this game is very small and it'll always be this way.

Regardless, please explain what you're trying to get across here, I don't see how it is relevant to what I had to say?

I didn't mention anything about SP gain being too slow. I complained about the current system to accrue it being tiresome.


I haven't seen anyone post any testing beyond day one shenanigans messing around and reporting what they were earning. Everyone seems to be assuming that they're experts and that the reason fighting tougher mobs isn't worth it is because the experts can't kill them fast enough to justify the extra SP on a kill per kill basis.

It's too soon to be saying we now how to get the most out of the current system.


I said average WoW player. I'm not so ignorant to think that everyone who plays WoW is terrible :P Though I am confident to say that I believe the average FFXI/V player is more intelligent and RPG-savvy than the average WoW player. Just like i'd say someone who listens to Mozart to be more cultured than someone who listened to Justin Bieber.

Anyway, i'm not so sure its too soon. I don't think there is anything to "crack" anymore. You get get 10k SP an hour easily by grinding on blue cons, which puts you in line with the speed of leveling crafting and gathering classes. I'd say everything is working as intended at this point, but i'd be extremely happy to admit that I was wrong.


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#143 Nov 28 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

I am not taking anything on others, just you specifically, because you think you are the holy grail of all things FFXIV related. I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not, and it's the reason why many on here think your an elitist **** (the word the rhymes with slick). And maybe you should get your facts straight, I HAVE made a contribution by being one of the first people to perform tests on all different rank monsters with various party sizes and post those results on here.


Ya, after I gave you the idea for the testing. First you were all, "QQ I don't understand" and then you were "QQ I'm sleepy" and then you came back and did the exact same test I recommended and threw in the towel. Did you think to run some tests on orange/low red mobs? I don't think you did. I think you're sulking and whining and waiting for someone else to tell you how to play. Real contribution there, sport.

Quote:
There is a reason why the majority playing the game have beef with the current SP scale for those leveling post 20.

p.s. I never said I "liked" the SP system before it, it was flawed as well, and it still is, just in a different way.



Right, they don't like it because it's going to take them "too long" to get to the non-existent endgame content. Gotcha.


There you go again believing you are the holy grail. You're so conceited it's laughable. I was already in the progress of testing the entire system the moment the patch was available. I had already started testing this crap when you "came up with the idea". You've defended the scale and continue to argue with me when you didn't contribute crap finally leveled a job past 20 last night apparently, yet you but feel the need to incessantly keep going. I've tested all of the scenarios needed to draw an appropriate conclusion about party play, as have many others who have posted the thoughts in this thread.

Fact: Many people are upset with this system due to it's horrible SP Scale for Players 20+ encouraging mindless grinding on TW/EP mobs.

Keep on going Aurelius, you just continue to show your true colors.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 5:17pm by KnocturnalOne
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FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#144 Nov 28 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Wait... he doesn't have a DoW or DoM past 20 yet?
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#145 Nov 28 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Default
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11,576 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:

There you go again believing you are the holy grail. You're so conceited it's laughable. I was already in the progress of testing the entire system the moment the patch was available. I had already started testing this crap when you "came up with the idea". You've defended the scale and continue to argue with me when you didn't contribute crap finally leveled a job past 20 last night apparently, yet you but feel the need to incessantly keep going. I've tested all of the scenarios needed to draw an appropriate conclusion about party play, as have many others who have posted the thoughts in this thread.


All of the scenarios, eh? And which would those have been?

Was the test you posted about identical in nature to the one I recommended or not? You can try and put this back on me to hide the fact you haven't a clue, but people who know will see through it. I've tried to be patient with you and the sniveling and whining and carry on a reasonable discussion but now you're just being a butthurt crybaby. Typical.

Quote:
Fact: Many people are upset with this system due to it's horrible SP Scale for Players 20+ encouraging mindless grinding on TW/EP mobs.


Fact: Many people who whine about mechanics in MMOs haven't a ******* clue. You appear to be one of them.

Carry on, then.
#146 Nov 28 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
tylerbee wrote:
Wait... he doesn't have a DoW or DoM past 20 yet?


I hit 20 conjurer last night.
#147 Nov 28 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

There you go again believing you are the holy grail. You're so conceited it's laughable. I was already in the progress of testing the entire system the moment the patch was available. I had already started testing this crap when you "came up with the idea". You've defended the scale and continue to argue with me when you didn't contribute crap finally leveled a job past 20 last night apparently, yet you but feel the need to incessantly keep going. I've tested all of the scenarios needed to draw an appropriate conclusion about party play, as have many others who have posted the thoughts in this thread.


All of the scenarios, eh? And which would those have been?

Was the test you posted about identical in nature to the one I recommended or not? You can try and put this back on me to hide the fact you haven't a clue, but people who know will see through it. I've tried to be patient with you and the sniveling and whining and carry on a reasonable discussion but now you're just being a butthurt crybaby. Typical.

Quote:
Fact: Many people are upset with this system due to it's horrible SP Scale for Players 20+ encouraging mindless grinding on TW/EP mobs.


Fact: Many people who whine about mechanics in MMOs haven't a @#%^ing clue. You appear to be one of them.

Carry on, then.


Clearly from my first post I made in this thread, I was testing SP right after the patch in a party play. When that didn't work, WTF wouldld be the next logical test? Solo/Small Groups. You sit so high on your horse that you wouldn't believe I had already asked my vent buddies to group with me. They were in vent, they know me, they would believe me. You think you know the system so well, post up your results grinding in a party killing something other than mindless TW/EP mobs.

I'm done with my so-called "sniveling & whining", I've made my point and that's all that's needed.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 5:38pm by KnocturnalOne
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#148 Nov 28 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah okay, once you experience post 20 party leveling (if you ever stop soloing :P ) you may agree with what i'm saying.

Or you might not, a couple people in my LS like it, I just don't think it takes advantage of all the skills and party dynamics they put in the game.
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#149 Nov 28 2010 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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544 posts
tylerbee wrote:
Ah okay, once you experience post 20 party leveling (if you ever stop soloing :P ) you may agree with what i'm saying.

Or you might not, a couple people in my LS like it, I just don't think it takes advantage of all the skills and party dynamics they put in the game.


Thats an understatement.
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#150 Nov 28 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Default
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11,576 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Clearly from my first post I made in this thread, I was testing SP right after the patch in a party play. When that didn't work, WTF wouldld be the next logical test? Solo/Small Groups. You sit so high on your horse that you wouldn't believe I had already asked my vent buddies to group with me. They were in vent, they know me, they would believe me. You think you know the system so well, post up your results grinding in a party killing something other than mindless TW/EP mobs.


Point is, for someone who apparently can't possibly know what's going on post-20 I came up with the exact test you did, or you thought mine was good enough to warrant trying. One of the two. Yet you still QQ that I'm too low yadda yadda yadda.

Quote:
I'm done with my so-called "sniveling & whining", I've made my point and that's all that's needed.


Good. Imma hold you to that.
#151 Nov 28 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Default
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11,576 posts
tylerbee wrote:
Ah okay, once you experience post 20 party leveling (if you ever stop soloing :P ) you may agree with what i'm saying.

Or you might not, a couple people in my LS like it, I just don't think it takes advantage of all the skills and party dynamics they put in the game.


The only thing I'll agree with is that halving SP earned as soon as you hit rank 20 is a questionable move. Beyond that, I'm waiting until I get a chance to mess around in a competent group before I pass judgment. And I'm fairly certain that my criteria for "competent" will be substantially higher than that of your average Joe.
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