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Did they somehow programmed SP and EXP mixed up? Follow

#152 Nov 28 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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#153 Nov 28 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Ah okay, once you experience post 20 party leveling (if you ever stop soloing :P ) you may agree with what i'm saying.

Or you might not, a couple people in my LS like it, I just don't think it takes advantage of all the skills and party dynamics they put in the game.


The only thing I'll agree with is that halving SP earned as soon as you hit rank 20 is a questionable move. Beyond that, I'm waiting until I get a chance to mess around in a competent group before I pass judgment. And I'm fairly certain that my criteria for "competent" will be substantially higher than that of your average Joe.


Aurelius theres something you need to understand. Heck even my LS mates don;t understand what I'm trying to say. But here goes. This is my scenario:

SP/hr yes we get better those. But in order to do so, you need to grind endlessly on Easy Prey mobs, that takes just 15-20sec max to kill. I seriously can't picture myself doing it.

Take away the "we get better SP/hr" thinking first. Before you continue reading if not I don;t think you can see the point.

1) Before patch ppl complained about the total random SP gains forcing ppl to do mindless 111111112222131111. Post patch? In order to maximize SP gains kill the EP mobs ASAP, with everything you got. Does both provide tactics? We when from doing 1111111121222211113 on mobs that have high HP VT, IT mobs in order to maximize SP --> to, throw the kitchen sink at EP mobs, sometimes EM mobs to get better SP/Hr.

2) EP, EM, T, VT, IT mobs scaling. Right how the SP scaling is completely broke. EP to IT mobs, difference in SP is average out 60sp+. The time taken for me killing EP mobs and getting between 54-75 is like only 20 secs max solo. EM more or less the same time 64-94. T, VT (No I can't do IT mobs because I died trying ) mobs way longer net me less then 120 max.

High yeah, I can go do EP mobs and get craploads of SP/Hr. But shouldn't I be somewhere else fighting more powerful mobs? Do people really like to grind endlessly on EP mobs, just because they give better SP/Hr?

Aurelius the so call "competent" PT will most likely be a PT that beat up mobs with low HP to maximize SP/hr. Cause thats the direction, favor of the month, now.

I guess I'll go mine and chop tree to provide mats now. Sure as **** more fun, when trying to find good GS, BS, Alchem, Carpenter, cooking and Weavering mats
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#154 Nov 28 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Humster wrote:
Aurelius theres something you need to understand. Heck even my LS mates don;t understand what I'm trying to say. But here goes. This is my scenario:

SP/hr yes we get better those. But in order to do so, you need to grind endlessly on Easy Prey mobs, that takes just 15-20sec max to kill. I seriously can't picture myself doing it.

Take away the "we get better SP/hr" thinking first. Before you continue reading if not I don;t think you can see the point.

1) Before patch ppl complained about the total random SP gains forcing ppl to do mindless 111111112222131111. Post patch? In order to maximize SP gains kill the EP mobs ASAP, with everything you got. Does both provide tactics? We when from doing 1111111121222211113 on mobs that have high HP VT, IT mobs in order to maximize SP --> to, throw the kitchen sink at EP mobs, sometimes EM mobs to get better SP/Hr.

2) EP, EM, T, VT, IT mobs scaling. Right how the SP scaling is completely broke. EP to IT mobs, difference in SP is average out 60sp+. The time taken for me killing EP mobs and getting between 54-75 is like only 20 secs max solo. EM more or less the same time 64-94. T, VT (No I can't do IT mobs because I died trying ) mobs way longer net me less then 120 max.

High yeah, I can go do EP mobs and get craploads of SP/Hr. But shouldn't I be somewhere else fighting more powerful mobs? Do people really like to grind endlessly on EP mobs, just because they give better SP/Hr?

Aurelius the so call "competent" PT will most likely be a PT that beat up mobs with low HP to maximize SP/hr. Cause thats the direction, favor of the month, now.

I guess I'll go mine and chop tree to provide mats now. Sure as **** more fun, when trying to find good GS, BS, Alchem, Carpenter, cooking and Weavering mats


What was it that you were expecting? Most of the people in my LS are grouping for SP still and they've adjusted their approach to mobs a few ranks above them. They're going out in small groups with appropriate rank spreads and just killing stuff in groups because that's what they like to do. They're not interested in SP per hour to the point where they're abandoning groups because it's "not worth it".

Fixate on SP/hour if that's what you need to do. You're ruining your own good time.
#155 Nov 28 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:

..........................

Fixate on SP/hour if that's what you need to do. You're ruining your own good time.


If I went ahead and grind and play the way that its "meant to play" currently, I'll be ruining my own good time.

Right now its just plain, well, maybe a bit harsh, pointless for me other then "see bar grow longer". Or just go out kill mobs in a grp. When I see that battle play just went from Red to Violet. Nothing really changed.

Maybe just maybe I'm viewing things more on a solo prospective since when I log in for 2-4 hours a day my LS mates are at work or school and when I came back from work, they already logged out or about to log out.

Or maybe I should change how I view things to YOUR prospective only.

Or you should change how you view things to MY prospective only.
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#156 Nov 29 2010 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
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Humster wrote:
EmiyaShirou wrote:
I didn't test the SP so much cuss of lack of time, but i with my Rank 26 Marauder, get more SP now, than before, and i love it :3

PS: And i was Solo btw. ;)

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 11:02pm by EmiyaShirou


Well I'm getting less. Seriously less per fight.

The only way I can get "more" is to beat up blue mobs. Which, will ***** up lower rank peeps, whom are trying to level on the same stuff I kill in under 15secs.

Now for me its simple, beat up green and yellows and get tons lower SP then before, VS ******** up other peeps leveling and play experience and get a load better SP. And the latter kinda sucks.

Edited, Nov 25th 2010 11:17pm by Humster


Aurelius wrote:
theweenie wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
This SP system seems only good for solo, it's baffling. I play an MMO to play with others, not solo, otherwise I would play Dragons Age or something.

I am so disappointed after being so happy about the UI fix.
The SP change is fine for both soloing and grouping. You just can't group in the exact same way as the prior system and expect the same results.

Get into a smaller group and roam around killing mobs a little higher than your ranks. Not 10-15 ranks higher than you like before. While you may not be getting 500SP every kill, you can use your weaponskills to kill faster, allowing you to rack up far more SP over time.


I think this is the solution.

I'm trying very hard to do my part not to let this devolve into another debate about how an MMO should work and how one should be played, but at the end of the day it all boils down to what you're doing and what you're expecting to be rewarded for.

Based on KnocturnalOne's experiment, they started out on a yellow mob (solo) that earned them ~100 SP. They then added someone to their group that was pretty close to their rank and illed another and got ~70 SP (30% less). And so to my way of thinking, you've got twice the people and hence should be able to kill each mob twice as fast + share a wider variety of buffs. So assuming you're in an area with a reasonable mob density, you kill twice as fast for 2/3 the xp per kill, and after two kills you're ahead of what you might have been in terms of SP as a solo player. Even if you're having to run a bit from one mob to the next you're still killing those mobs twice as fast, so for every minute you spend in combat you're actually earning more.

So then if you want to up the SP maybe you would find mobs a few ranks higher. Nothing major...theoretically high enough in rank to award more SP but low enough in rank that the kill rate scales appropriately so you still come out ahead.

And this is the part that, if anything I said so far didn't, is going to **** people off:

Working as intended.

I love seeing people in groups having fun. I love having fun in a group. I enjoy grouping (with the right people). But I don't expect to be rewarded for anything just because I'm in a group. I have to be accomplishing something in that group that I couldn't accomplish on my own if I want to feel entitled to say I should be getting more.

And now we continue testing and try to find a sweet spot...a reasonable balance between mob rank, time to kill, and SP gained per kill.

I'll admit, the only reason I didn't mock people in their 15 person groups killing mobs 20 ranks above them is because...they were killing mobs 20 ranks above them. Hard to find fault with that. But when they're milking a system that is tuned so that sloppy play + party size = 5-10 times the SP a solo player can hope to get, I'm sorry but it's just broken. When you're encouraging people to soak all kinds of damage so your healers can maximize on SP potential, it's just broken. There was just SO much wrong with the way group play was shaping up and I didn't want to be the dink who takes it out on the players because I have to give them credit for being innovative and working with what they were given.

What it sounds like to me now, however, is that we're back to a scenario where the skilled players with appropriate builds and gear will be rewarded because they'll be able to kill things faster and keep up a strong pace that will allow them to progress faster than a solo player. They'll be earning a faster rate of progression instead of having it handed to them simply because they accepted a group invite, and that, to me, is what MMOs are all about. It's not about being rewarded for being in a group, it's being rewarded for leveraging the advantages of a group to accomplish what a solo player can't accomplish.

Will SE tweak and tune the system going forward? Quite possibly. At least now we're at a baseline for consistency.


theweenie wrote:
Humster wrote:
I can't see a target I can reach when the SP is too random, with 0s at times. Now, I can see the SP, but look at the SP bar, and the SP gained per mob, and think about that I'm only Rank 20, whats going to happen at Rank 30+.

I guess If I ever do login again, I'll just mine and chop wood for ppl.
Look at it this way.

Old system: Zerg much high level mob, spam basic attacks to maximize gain which prolongs fight, avoid buffing to maximize healer SP. Gain anywhere between 0-500SP per fight.
vs
New system: Attack moderately higher level mob, actually use the skills you've picked up over the levels which kills faster, buff however you like. Gain at a constant SP rate.

The old system may have let you get to 50 faster (which we don't know that it did yet since we've only just begun to experiment with it), but why bother to get there under the old system? You never used any of the skills you picked up as you leveled. You couldn't, because it would cause your SP to drop.

Now, taking SP out of the equation. Which was more fun? Using the abilities you've gained over the ranks to actually play your class? Or spamming a basic attack for the duration of a prolonged fight?

SE makes a change which gives us an actual combat-related reason to level up, and people are complaining that they can't gain the same SP as the were under the borefest that was the old SP system, under which there wasn't any combat-related reason to rank up. Boring combat vs not boring combat?

For myself, I would gladly take an SP hit if it means I'll get more enjoyable combat. Before the update I was getting roughly 1/2 rank per day. I hated the large group basic attack grinding, so I would do leves, solo, and play in small groups (2-4 other players from my LS). Under the new system I flew through 1.5 ranks in the same amount of time I used to gain only 1/2, doing the exact same thing I was doing before.

Rather than deriving your enjoyment from what number 1-500 shows up in your log after a fight, perhaps try experimenting with the combat system now that it wont kill your SP, unless you would rather hit 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for hours at a time. If you thought the old system was fun, you should check out a game called Cow Clicker. You'd love it.


except it isn't any different...it is the same pre-original sp fix that only allowed you to group with a total party of 3. same sh*t...destroy everything at your rank or below for not much sp but a bunch quickly...then they fixed sp in larger parties and everyone did efts and raptors which was zerg stuff 20ranks above you for 500sp (con & thm) and 300-500 everyone else...now we are back to square one.

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 1:16am by stripesonfire
#157 Nov 29 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well I might enjoy cutting my grass with a pair of scissors but that doesn't mean i'm not going to use a lawnmower and do it the most efficient way to make the most of my time.
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#158 Nov 29 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Humster wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

..........................

Fixate on SP/hour if that's what you need to do. You're ruining your own good time.


If I went ahead and grind and play the way that its "meant to play" currently, I'll be ruining my own good time.

Right now its just plain, well, maybe a bit harsh, pointless for me other then "see bar grow longer". Or just go out kill mobs in a grp. When I see that battle play just went from Red to Violet. Nothing really changed.

Maybe just maybe I'm viewing things more on a solo prospective since when I log in for 2-4 hours a day my LS mates are at work or school and when I came back from work, they already logged out or about to log out.

Or maybe I should change how I view things to YOUR prospective only.

Or you should change how you view things to MY prospective only.


I'm enjoying most aspects of the game right now. I'm looking forward to seeing what the December update brings. I don't look at the patches and changes and really much of anything we're getting as the "one shot to save the game" that so many others seem to do. I look at it as a process. One of the first steps in that process was to address a broken SP system. They've started that process by getting rid of the random component to it. As I've said previously, I don't fault them for trying something different. The "no xp" system was something they had been talking about since they announced the game. They tried it, it turned out to be more trouble than it's worth, and now it's gone. I'm not going to cry about it. I'm not going to rage quit over it. I'm not going to sulk in town or run around with my mining pick cursing SE for stunting my e-peen growth.

The game is a work in progress. Anyone expecting that there's going to ever be any one miracle patch that's suddenly going to change the game from ehhhh to zomfg is naive. So you roll with the punches and patiently wait to see what's around the corner or you whine.
#159 Nov 29 2010 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Well I might enjoy cutting my grass with a pair of scissors but that doesn't mean i'm not going to use a lawnmower and do it the most efficient way to make the most of my time.


Except that with an MMO, the purpose isn't to cut the lawn so that it's cut. The purpose is to cut the lawn for the sake of cutting the lawn, meaning that if any point you're done cutting said lawn, you've got nothing left to do. If that means busting out your scissors until SE can expand the yard, then that's what you do.
#160 Nov 29 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Hi all,

I'm new here and I find this topic very informative so far, great findings and discussions but could really do with alot less emo atm heh. I dont think we should suppress any observations here, clouds the collective vision.

Before I start, I'd like to quote a post that I partially agree with.

Quote:
I think this is the solution.

I'm trying very hard to do my part not to let this devolve into another debate about how an MMO should work and how one should be played, but at the end of the day it all boils down to what you're doing and what you're expecting to be rewarded for.

Based on KnocturnalOne's experiment, they started out on a yellow mob (solo) that earned them ~100 SP. They then added someone to their group that was pretty close to their rank and illed another and got ~70 SP (30% less). And so to my way of thinking, you've got twice the people and hence should be able to kill each mob twice as fast + share a wider variety of buffs. So assuming you're in an area with a reasonable mob density, you kill twice as fast for 2/3 the xp per kill, and after two kills you're ahead of what you might have been in terms of SP as a solo player. Even if you're having to run a bit from one mob to the next you're still killing those mobs twice as fast, so for every minute you spend in combat you're actually earning more.

So then if you want to up the SP maybe you would find mobs a few ranks higher. Nothing major...theoretically high enough in rank to award more SP but low enough in rank that the kill rate scales appropriately so you still come out ahead.

And this is the part that, if anything I said so far didn't, is going to **** people off:

Working as intended.

I love seeing people in groups having fun. I love having fun in a group. I enjoy grouping (with the right people). But I don't expect to be rewarded for anything just because I'm in a group. I have to be accomplishing something in that group that I couldn't accomplish on my own if I want to feel entitled to say I should be getting more.

And now we continue testing and try to find a sweet spot...a reasonable balance between mob rank, time to kill, and SP gained per kill.

I'll admit, the only reason I didn't mock people in their 15 person groups killing mobs 20 ranks above them is because...they were killing mobs 20 ranks above them. Hard to find fault with that. But when they're milking a system that is tuned so that sloppy play + party size = 5-10 times the SP a solo player can hope to get, I'm sorry but it's just broken. When you're encouraging people to soak all kinds of damage so your healers can maximize on SP potential, it's just broken. There was just SO much wrong with the way group play was shaping up and I didn't want to be the dink who takes it out on the players because I have to give them credit for being innovative and working with what they were given.

What it sounds like to me now, however, is that we're back to a scenario where the skilled players with appropriate builds and gear will be rewarded because they'll be able to kill things faster and keep up a strong pace that will allow them to progress faster than a solo player. They'll be earning a faster rate of progression instead of having it handed to them simply because they accepted a group invite, and that, to me, is what MMOs are all about. It's not about being rewarded for being in a group, it's being rewarded for leveraging the advantages of a group to accomplish what a solo player can't accomplish.

Will SE tweak and tune the system going forward? Quite possibly. At least now we're at a baseline for consistency.


I would definitely agree that sp awarded all round (solo to groups) would need a boost to remove the grind and I am confident it will be tweaked. However, we shouldn't isolate group reward to just sp, players group to hunt big bad monsters for loot and that should be looked into as well.

The way i see this game is to collect useful actions as a foundation to move vertically up the levels. Not to insult anyone, but I wouldnt want to be a gimp lvl 50 without the right support skills. I do think SE is helping us to see this.

I'd like to urge people here to make use of this 'tweaking time' to level useful subs up rather than rage online and threaten to quit unless our views are pandered to.. etc. because the truth is, we all want this game to work in our vision of a perfect MMO (which can be very conflicting) and even if our demands were to be answered, SE needs time to ensure it wont enrage other players.

e.g. I chose to be gladiator, with the mind set of being a good tank (like a paladin in ff11). After some research, I realized i 'wanted' so many other skills from other classes. Feint (maybe even diversion) from Lancer, +enmity trait from marauder, accomplice and conditioning from pugilist, affinity with thaumatarge and conjurer to use exaltation and tranquility along with those really good stat conversion traits, the list goes on and on.

Is it the best setup for sp? nope. but i do feel i'd be able to handle most things after i do reach lvl 50 as a gladiator.

I am now 20ish with all DoM and DoW jobs minus the archer and pugilist. I am also a 32 arm, 33 lw, 31 gs, and post teens on other crafts. This patch has got to suck the most for me because i really dont get a boost.

Also, before we all say SE sucks, I urge you to look into the history of all other MMOs during launch, even the mighty WoW had its bad moments. Lets all balance our vision of utopia vs. the improvements we have now.

If you really want a way to emulate the 500sp raptor parties, I urge you all to look into killing non-leve mobs during a linked leve. I've heard some rumors about that.

Thanks all for the findings i've read so far! Rage less and play on!

- Thanos Soluna of theFlyingDutchman, Wutai.
#161 Nov 30 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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KenJammin wrote:
I read every post here and i'm surprised no one thought that maybe SE doesn't want us to be leveling past 20?!
Seriously the game is pretty much in beta, none of us have paid a dime for monthly subscriptions and their banking on more ps3 users than pc users.Their aren't even main story quests past 20. Their's no end game content, the content set up suggests that the game will revolve more around questing, doing leve's, Behest, and killing NM's, over 4 hour a day grind sessions.

I also don't notice much of a difference between the monsters that are blue and green or yellow. They all take relatively the same amount of time to kill as long as its the same monster type, so it makes sense the exp difference between a blue and a green is way different.

I can agree party exp should be improved but not anywhere near to the extent that it was before this patch. Pre-patch it was possible to get decent sp in a party past 20 but now no one can get decent exp. I agree that players should have an incentive to party but i don't think it should ever be to the extent that it was in ffxi or before the November patch. Most players don't have the time to log on and commit themselves to 2 hours of grinding every day, especially after spending time in town,doing leve's, and leveling a craft.

The game is different now, I think a lot of you need to reevaluate a new way to level and not worry so much about how long its gonna take you to get to 50 at this point in time. I think its rather ignorant to not even ponder the possibility that maybe SE doesn't want everyone to hit max level at a reasonable pace. I think the goal of ffxiv's design philosophy is to somewhat move away from the rush to max level, its rather difficult considering the lack of content but if they were to allow people to get to max level now it would ruin a lot of the content updates planned mostly around the 20-40 ranges. SE even stated they wanted to help get players to level 20 where most of the NM content begins.

Remember were all still playing a beta only now we get to keep the progress we make, so the rules have changed a bit.

(side note: I think its also hilarious how SE knows they can abuse the 30+ players more than anyone, you guys are already hooked and are clearly not the players SE is worried about keeping right now. The amount of people that returned in the past 2 days is proof that a lot of people are still following FFXIV's success, that in mind i think SE's got a few rounds of exp balancing before anyone gives up for good.)



This guy is right as well. I mean seriously, anyone who's past rank 20 right now is obviously trying their hardest to just grind their way to the end of the game. Also, if you take a couple of minutes to realize that a good character in this game is technically not the character who's rank 50 in one particular job. It seems Square is really pushing the multi-class structure straight from the beginning.

I think it makes sense to do that just because I'm not rushing through the game (even though I think I've played a pretty good amount so far) and my highest rank is only 16. Once they apply the rest of the patches I think most of the regular people (i.e. people under rank 25) will enjoy it even more because they didn't treat the game like it was an amazing race.
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