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Auto-attack and SocializingFollow

#52 Nov 30 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Default
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Any fast-paced game requires voice chat to function properly. Since they refuse to allow modding to full-screen mode (and vent plug-in?) It would be real nice if they hosted a voice server .... typing is so 1990s :P
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#53 Nov 30 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Jeraziah wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
I'm only going to repeat myself once.

There is plenty of time to chat when your stamina bar is refilling.

You do not need to use the stamina immediately and you are not losing any unless your bar gets totally full.


Get your heads out of your behinds people and open your ears.


You're right, but that in itself is a flaw with another system. The enmity system in this game is no where near as interesting as in FFXI or some other MMOs. If the enmity system caused players to have to watch what they're doing (Which would make battles more interesting), then they wouldn't be blowing through all of their stamina which in turn would allow them time to type and chat. But as it stands with the current enmity system, you can more or less spam as much as you'd like and you won't get hate.

Another flaw is that many players now blitz easy prey mobs, which really doesn't allow for chatting at all. If you're not spamming buttons, you're not killing as quickly as you could if you weren't distracted. And even if you're spamming buttons, by the time you run out of stamina and the mob is dead it's time to run off to another.

There's really never any down time while grinding. There is no setting up camp, there's no waiting for the puller to return, resting MP, etc.

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 5:53pm by Jeraziah


Yeah, there are many problems with enmity right now which are slowly being addressed, patch by patch. I don't think they'll be resolved anytime soon as they soon intend on individualising the classes even more so they bring certain benefits to combat and so forth. This is definitely something we can agree on. Maybe when we're at the stage where every single attack counts then people would have something to complain about but right now you have plenty of time to chat imo.

The partying is just broken right now with the whole easy prey thing. I agree there too.

One thing I don't agree on is having a camp, I kinda like running around with my party killing mobs although it removes the puller dynamic and so forth. I think we lost these aspects to please the casual crowd. Anything that takes time for players unfamilar with older MMOs = unnecessary timesink. Kinda sad, really.
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#54 Nov 30 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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tylerbee wrote:

One thing I don't agree on is having a camp, I kinda like running around with my party killing mobs although it removes the puller dynamic and so forth. I think we lost these aspects to please the casual crowd. Anything that takes time for players unfamilar with older MMOs = unnecessary timesink. Kinda sad, really.


I don't have any proof or statements from SE but I would guess that FFXI wasn't really meant to camp and pull either. I think SE envisioned people running from mob to mob in FFXI too.

If it wasn't for the mobs retracting and hence ending up un-trainable then you'd have a camp dynamic I'm sure.

And you couldn't have the mobs be trainable in a no-zone map.

I'd say it's less to do with pleasing casuals and more to do with SE's design of a more open world.
#55 Nov 30 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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You're right, I didn't think about it like that :)
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#56 Nov 30 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Jeraziah wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
I'm only going to repeat myself once.

There is plenty of time to chat when your stamina bar is refilling.

You do not need to use the stamina immediately and you are not losing any unless your bar gets totally full.


Get your heads out of your behinds people and open your ears.


You're right, but that in itself is a flaw with another system. The enmity system in this game is no where near as interesting as in FFXI or some other MMOs. If the enmity system caused players to have to watch what they're doing (Which would make battles more interesting), then they wouldn't be blowing through all of their stamina which in turn would allow them time to type and chat. But as it stands with the current enmity system, you can more or less spam as much as you'd like and you won't get hate.

Another flaw is that many players now blitz easy prey mobs, which really doesn't allow for chatting at all. If you're not spamming buttons, you're not killing as quickly as you could if you weren't distracted. And even if you're spamming buttons, by the time you run out of stamina and the mob is dead it's time to run off to another.

There's really never any down time while grinding. There is no setting up camp, there's no waiting for the puller to return, resting MP, etc.

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 5:53pm by Jeraziah

So it's just like endgame FFXI...
#57 Dec 03 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't like auto-attack; I do like the ability to control my own actions. The middle of a fight is not the time to socialize; rather, it is the time to work together to accomplish a goal.

That being said,so far there's not much "working together" during fights. SE intended the Battle Regimen system to accomplish that aim just as the skill chain/ magic burst system did in FFXI (Which fell into disuse after Treasures of Aht Urgan was released).

Unfortunately, the current Battle Regimen system needs fixing (let me suggest being able to set up the BR before a fight, not in the middle of one when everyone is getting pounded).

In any case, atuo-attack: no, no, no, not ever.
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#58 Dec 03 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Phanatic wrote:
The middle of a fight is not the time to socialize
I disagree completely. Easy fights should allow for time to socialize with other players, and more difficult fights should allow for time to communicate with team members for strategic purposes.
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#59 Dec 05 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Hey, so reviewing this thread quickly, I see a lot of good points. I don't play the game yet because I'm waiting on the PS3 release as a college kid who brings my PS3 and not PC. My laptop can't support the game. But, I played XI for 4 years at least.

I think the lack of auto-attacking is actually nice in XIV. I loved being able to do all my homework while lvling even in pts and have no problem but at the same time it gets pretty boring. I don't remember the last time I played without reading a book or playing something else at the same time. Sure I might not be able to play while writing my essays, but it'll be more fun to actually play the new battle system. The idea to allow queues sounds awesome. Sometimes you wanna switch up abilities without having a billion macro setups. It could work like FFXIII with the ATB setup I'd assume.

As far as the voice chat. I'd love that option for LS, pt or private chat. of course it'd be an option so not all have to use it. I understand people disliking it (though not the wife thing, sorry guys but I force my bf to play games) but it the end if FFXIV or PSN never implements this, I'll be satisfied to just use skype, vent or TS to at least chat with the bf while we're both gaming at respective homes as I have a bluetooth for my cell. Otherwise, yay for networking.

I loved the social aspect of XI as it made for unscripted joking and fun convos while doing something we all like. I also just loved helping people with quests and such, mob slaying is just fun XD
#60 Dec 05 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to agree here. I find despite my love of all things FF its just not as fun of an experience as I expected when i can play for hours in town crafting with little or no town chat. How many times has someone said something in LS chat and you started to respond but were forced to cancel it in order to hit an attack or crafting skill. This kind of deal makes ya wait until the fight or craft is over. Which by then the conversation has moved on. Over time you just get used to the fact that if your crafting or fighting its not worth it to try and respond which leads people to just not talk at all.

Its why people aren't social in towns/parties. The game teaches you that pushing your action keys is more important then chatting and even punishes you if you fail to push them in time allowed. Could you imagine working at a job that sent an electrical shock into your hand every time your worked slowed down because you stopped to talk to a co-worker?

Assuming people didn't just quit(which many have) the ones who remain would be silent workers who stared straight ahead and quietly did there job... and now you have your FFXIV experience.

Some of us have a higher tolerance for this sort of thing. I'm still here and playing but every time I log in my play times a little shorter or I log in less often. People STAY with an mmo for the social aspect. There's other MMO's out there, that will remain nameless that offer very little in the way of content but have great social networks. Its that very reason that millions of player keep logging in to run the same instances or just stand in town. Its to hang out with there friends. Its to chat... Not sit quietly doing a job, tucked in a corner of town where they won't be bothered while they craft.







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#61 Dec 05 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Default
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Ok so to recap (from my personal experience):

General FFXI battle complaint:
"System is too slow, all I do is stand there until I have TP because it auto attacks! God I wish this was faster and more interactive! And **** downtime sucks so hard!"

General FFXIV battle complaint:
"This system is too fast and requires too much input! I wish my attacks were automated until I had TP! And what gives, I want down time!"

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General FFXI exp complaint: "Man these things take so long to kill! Ya they give large amount of exp per kill but I just can't wait to get to Caedarva Mire and chain kill Imps for around 100 exp but super fast kills and no downtime."

General FFXIV sp complaint: "Man I wish fights were more interesting and lasted longer. Killing these things super fast, one after the other for 100-200 SP is boring. I want to kill bigger, harder mobs for more SP."

Really only the first half applies to this thread... but the main point is you can't please everyone lol.



Edited, Dec 5th 2010 6:25pm by Arquis001
#62 Dec 05 2010 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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Arquis001 wrote:
Ok so to recap (from my personal experience):

General FFXI battle complaint:
"System is too slow, all I do is stand there until I have TP because it auto attacks! God I wish this was faster and more interactive! And **** downtime sucks so hard!"

General FFXIV battle complaint:
"This system is too fast and requires too much input! I wish my attacks were automated until I had TP! And what gives, I want down time!"

Edited, Dec 5th 2010 6:25pm by Arquis001


See I think they just went too far, I'm sure what alot of people would have preferred, was auto attack, but using TP moves and abilities on 10, 15, or 30 second timers instead of one TP move per fight, and abilities like jump/meditate every other fight.
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#63 Dec 05 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Arquis001 wrote:

General FFXI exp complaint: "Man these things take so long to kill! Ya they give large amount of exp per kill but I just can't wait to get to Caedarva Mire and chain kill Imps for around 100 exp but super fast kills and no downtime."


Wow, really? There are actually people out there that prefer and enjoy "two hit dead" lacklustre and boring combat in a FF game? Colored me amazed.
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#64 Dec 05 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Arquis001 wrote:

General FFXI exp complaint: "Man these things take so long to kill! Ya they give large amount of exp per kill but I just can't wait to get to Caedarva Mire and chain kill Imps for around 100 exp but super fast kills and no downtime."


Wow, really? There are actually people out there that prefer and enjoy "two hit dead" lacklustre and boring combat in a FF game? Colored me amazed.

It's a grinding game. So it's not about the combat per se, but some people enjoy killing things, getting chains, etc. And 2 hits on imps are actually viable considering my Summoner would hit them for like 75% of their HP with 1 Predator Claws lol.
#65 Dec 05 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Default
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NO AUTO ATTACK PLEASE!!

Most of the people that want auto attack just want to be lazy web page reading afk eating sleeping not contributing never using TP no food leech kings ~~~<call1>~~~!!!!!!! wake up *****!!!! wipega!! got rr up? no forgot to use it.

F that. Don't want to play with you people again.
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#66 Dec 05 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Arquis001 wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Arquis001 wrote:

General FFXI exp complaint: "Man these things take so long to kill! Ya they give large amount of exp per kill but I just can't wait to get to Caedarva Mire and chain kill Imps for around 100 exp but super fast kills and no downtime."


Wow, really? There are actually people out there that prefer and enjoy "two hit dead" lacklustre and boring combat in a FF game? Colored me amazed.

It's a grinding game. So it's not about the combat per se, but some people enjoy killing things, getting chains, etc. And 2 hits on imps are actually viable considering my Summoner would hit them for like 75% of their HP with 1 Predator Claws lol.


Yeah, I didn't say anything about grinding lol. I mean I am surprised people would prefer to run around two shotting mobs, using zero strategy and tactics while also possibly doing it solo *cringe* I'd also disagree in that it isn't about the combat. Most of FFXI's allure was because of the party play, you'll notice numbers continually dropped off when they introduced solo'ing. It was a niche game and they tried to open it up to the market by making it solo friendly, which failed. I fear they are doing the same here.

I miss FFXI's party play for leveling in XIV and it is disappointing i'm going to have to drop the game for now because it lacks this feature. I'm not a huge grinding fan (especially solo) but doing it in a party with weapon skills and EXP chains was heaps of fun.
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#67 Dec 06 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
General FFXI battle complaint: "System is too slow, all I do is stand there until I have TP because it auto attacks! God I wish this was faster and more interactive! And **** downtime sucks so hard!"

General FFXIV battle complaint: "This system is too fast and requires too much input! I wish my attacks were automated until I had TP! And what gives, I want down time!"


Somewhere there's a happy medium. The nice thing about XI was that you didn't have to manually select even the most basic attack, and only had to be vigilant for more critical decisions. I think most people hoped and expected that since XIV wouldn't have autoattack, there wouldn't be reliance on a certain attack over and over-- the battle would be more strategic. And then it wasn't. And not only were you using the same ability over and over, but you couldn't even talk to your party efficiently. You're cornered into boredom.


Quote:
General FFXI exp complaint: "Man these things take so long to kill! Ya they give large amount of exp per kill but I just can't wait to get to Caedarva Mire and chain kill Imps for around 100 exp but super fast kills and no downtime."

General FFXIV sp complaint: "Man I wish fights were more interesting and lasted longer. Killing these things super fast, one after the other for 100-200 SP is boring. I want to kill bigger, harder mobs for more SP."


I never heard any complaints about enemies taking too long to kill. Too long for the xp given, maybe, but that was another design flaw of XI that wasn't addressed in XIV. If killing a mob that took five minutes gave 600 xp rather than being capped, people would have been happy to kill mobs that took longer.

Neither game offers incentive for challenging yourself against bigger, harder mobs.
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#68 Dec 06 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the happy medium everyone wants could be the suggestion of attack queues. you could either wait for your stamina to build or set up a chain at once and enter for your character to wait and perform that chain once enough stamina is built up. This would also add an element of having to think a bit if your chain takes more than what your total stamina bar is as you'd have to get the timing right for combos.

This way we have more input control AND if we really want our queues will be set up and ready leaving the precious extra seconds we need in order to type into our chat logs. I'm personally getting a USB keyboard for my PS3 to make things faster and I'll be using 3rd party chat for friends so that's less /t chats to type out. It's also helpful knowing how to play with both keyboard and controller.

My humble opinion is that the attack queue would probably solve the issue of input requirements and of the social barriers.
#69 Dec 06 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Default
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Autoattack has no place in this game. It won't work for crap with it. Even if they made the basic attack autoattack(Which some classes don't even use or others use in a way that isn't like autoattack it will further ***** the pooch for them ) It would rape the entire way this game plays. If it is really keeping you from socializing you are an excuse hunting reclusive *******. Not only would autoattack still have you pressing about the same amount of buttons(This is assuming you don't suck ***) It would just ruin what strategy and skill that is needed in the game. Then as a further turn for the worse it might actually get changed to be lethargically slow to play like FFXI. That would be terrible. Game plays itself, use a weaponskill, go eat a sandwich, use another weaponskill. No freaking thanks. Even as RDM FFXI was so dirt slow I had to do something else while I played to keep me entertained. Welcome to one of the main reasons why other mmos smashed FFXI.

TL;DR
This is a retarded idea.
#70 Dec 06 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Default
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I dont really see the point of user controlled attack speed now that the exp system has been changed..

before your swings granted you levels of exp.. now it doesnt.. now its more LIKE FFXI.. so whats the point of hitting the button to swing now?
#71 Dec 06 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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other than the fear of my 1 button dieing on my laptop; i really hope they don't put in auto-attack. i like that i am involved in crafting/gathering/fighting and i don't mind button mashing. better than just hitting attack and then falling asleep while you wait for an attack to make itself available. and it scares me how many ppl want to talk in battle and frankly i can't understand why. to me it is the equivalent to making battle more boring. i love pugilist light and heavy hit. like boxing give them the old 1-2 :D

socializing in mmo's has its place but is battle and crafting when you want to?

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 4:25pm by TempLoop
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#72 Dec 06 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Well that is a good point and I agree, I like that it's more controlled.

As for the socializing, it's not so much that during battle and crafting is the time to do so, it's that it should be feasible. It was earlier mentioned about wanting to make a comment in conversation say in LS chat or whatnot but not being able to because you're focused in battle. By the end of the fight you're not only moving to your next target, but the conversation has moved to something else. Also, I'd rather not stand around doing nothing to chat. Like many, I can't commit that many hours a day to playing but I really want to have fun playing with others and chatting while doing so and not have to stand idle for more than a minute.

Though to be fair it's probably possible to do both at once. In XI I refused to make macros so I had to manually input more and I still had time to make small comments in chat.

Main question: when do you see is the time to participate in chat?
#73 Dec 06 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Solaine wrote:


Main question: when do you see is the time to participate in chat?


when running, when waiting for things to start, when crafting (totally doable, I do it all the time) when gathering (totally doable I do it all the time) when soloing (can stop after a 10 second battle).

Party play is about the only time I'm not chatting a lot.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#74 Dec 06 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
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djairrick wrote:
so whats the point of hitting the button to swing now?


Some people actually enjoy playing the game... I like being involved in battle... if I just wanted to press 1 button I would play video lottery terminals.

And for those who reply "but I just press one button now"

You're doing it wrong.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#75 Dec 06 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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Okay... Then what's then what's the issue (no offense to those complaining about lack of social time)? Again I'm waiting on the PS3 release so I'm not on game yet (Dammit!!). Even in XI, I focused on battle more than chatting. You're not really helping your pt otherwise, no?

Somewhat unrelated:
Idk, I'm forum surfing to see how happy people are and know what to expect. I like that it seems to not copy XI because I want something new but I am addicted to the FF style... And I'll admit I want my char to be better than my bf's XD I'm confident I have an advantage...
#76 Dec 06 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Mithsavvy wrote:
There are a lot of us who don't want to look like morons chatting into a headset while playing video games. I get enough grief from my wife for playing video games as it is.


PerrinofSylph wrote:
My wife can't stand when I game with a headset on unless it's so repeating phrases don't bug the crap out of her (as in "acknowledged", "moving out", etc... in RTS)... So unless I'm playing an RTS the headset is off (unless she's not home of course) because she said it makes her percieve I'm ignoring her more than I already am by focusing on a game.


M0RZA wrote:

Amen sir!

I gave team speak a try once while the wife was watching TV. I said something like "Guys, i'm not getting any buffs tonight" to which my wife butted in and said "don't worry it's not the only thing you wont be getting tonight".... I rest my case :/


Aaaand my will in finding a wife has decrease another 30%. I'm not even joking, if anyone think I'm making an attempt at humor.

Back on topic, as my friends haven't started playing yet I can't really tell if I have a problem with this or not,and I haven't joined any linkshell either. Perhaps I should give it a try. I had a problem responding to a /tell during combat and crafting pre-patch, but I thought it was slightly improved.

On the issue of partying, I haven't even touched my DoM for a looong while now. The party and combat moves too quickly I found. I don't think the FFXI way (pulling an Impossible to Gauge mob) works anymore, as they usually one-shot the tank (in my experience). I would prefer the middle ground between FFXI and FFXIV and have the combat last a bit longer.
#77 Dec 06 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay Okay really.... Can any of these men with wives that hate their gaming habits explain to me why they hate it?

I personally love gaming for both myself and my partner. I game and talk gaming with my bf and if I need some alone time or get ****** for some idiotic reason like sometimes female hormones causes, gaming is a great way to get that. Just last Friday I forced my guy to game while I made dinner so I could breathe.

I'm a psych major and so this topic is really interesting since I see so much of it from the people I game with. I'm honestly thinking about weaving it into a dissertation or something and maybe do research that could help wives be okay with gaming. I feel like the only significant others that accept such a harmless habit are gamers themselves....

Sure in some it causes anti-social tendencies or people get addicted (myself included) but there is a lot worse we can do, right?
#78 Dec 06 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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I am so happy my gf is chill with my gaming. I can see her not wanting me to wear a headset while she is around though. That said I have no problem communicating as is.

Solaine wrote:
I feel like the only significant others that accept such a harmless habit are gamers themselves....


This is my first year dating my loverly love, but she has been waaaaay better than anyone I have dated about the gaming thing. She doesn't game at all.

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 4:27pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#79 Dec 06 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Despite my pessimistic statement just then, I am also curious about the subject matter. Perhaps we can make a new thread so we don't derail this one?
#80 Dec 06 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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Enfid wrote:
Despite my pessimistic statement just then, I am also curious about the subject matter. Perhaps we can make a new thread so we don't derail this one?


Yeah I think that could be an interesting convo. "Relationships + FFXIV = impossible to gauge?" ... Poasting it now.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#81 Dec 06 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Default
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If your gf ever tells you you look stupid with a headset just let her know that her ******** looks funny and a little lopsided too but you don't say anything about that. That'll shut her up.
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