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Possible Explanation for Poor SP gains.Follow

#1 Nov 28 2010 at 6:35 AM Rating: Default
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I'm still convinced that SE is trying to stifle players trying to level far past 20. They reduced the curve for 1-20 players by so much and the curve after 20 is so much more difficult. Either their planning for interesting content to take place after 20 and keep the exp gains low forever, or they're purposefully keeping the PC players from gaining a commanding lead.
Why would you want people not paying monthly fee's too gain an extreme leveling advantage especially considering a large portion of your player base isn't even active yet?

I think the complaint of party's being less useful than they were is fair, but I think its better than the old system where large partys was almost required to make any real progress. That being said I really think its highly unlikely that SE is gonna have the skill up system primarily consisting of rofl stomping weak enemies, However if that does turn out to be the future I welcome it over the old system.

I am glad to see that everyone is suffering both soloers and partiers a like. I didn't approve of the 7x party exp I don't want a repeat of 11. I'd like soloing to be possible on the days where i don't have time to commit to party play or even a duo and trio situation where i'd prefer viable leveling with a more intimate group of personal friends. I think successfully playing with a girlfriend or buddy would help break up the monotony of constantly having to seek out 6 members, It would also allow me to use different skills than i normally would in a party. I am all for larger parties getting more exp but I really think having 90% large party based leveling is a bad idea and not what the developers intended.

Its important for players to leave feedback and it is good to see people voicing their concerns, I'm just trying to relax and consider all of the evidence. For now i plan to level other jobs instead of potentially waisting a lot of time grinding just to get a little bit ahead of everyone.

I hope those of you adjusting to the change will take it with a grain of salt and see it as an overall step forward despite being unable to advance at a reasonable pace.

tl;dr
SE's trying to keep everyone from leveling too fast, large parties are a bad idea but i still can agree that clearing fields of weak enemies is a boring way to level and shouldn't be the most efficient. 6 man parties should be ideal but solo's,duo's,and trio's shouldn't incur 1/6th the exp of large parties, the way the old sp system promoted.
#2 Nov 28 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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KenJammin wrote:
Either their planning for interesting content to take place after 20 and keep the exp gains low forever, or they're purposefully keeping the PC players from gaining a commanding lead.
Why would you want people not paying monthly fee's too gain an extreme leveling advantage especially considering a large portion of your player base isn't even active yet?
I think you're jumping to conclusions a little bit there. When SE tweaked the leveling curve, a lot of people got bumped up a level.. If they really had that in mind, they wouldn't have bumped those people up a level.


KenJammin wrote:
I think successfully playing with a girlfriend or buddy would help break up the monotony of constantly having to seek out 6 members, It would also allow me to use different skills than i normally would in a party.
I agree.. And also, battle regimens are a lot easier to do when you have fewer people messing it up.
#3 Nov 28 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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KenJammin wrote:
I'm still convinced that SE is trying to stifle players trying to level far past 20. They reduced the curve for 1-20 players by so much and the curve after 20 is so much more difficult. Either their planning for interesting content to take place after 20 and keep the exp gains low forever, or they're purposefully keeping the PC players from gaining a commanding lead.
Why would you want people not paying monthly fee's too gain an extreme leveling advantage especially considering a large portion of your player base isn't even active yet?

I think the complaint of party's being less useful than they were is fair, but I think its better than the old system where large partys was almost required to make any real progress. That being said I really think its highly unlikely that SE is gonna have the skill up system primarily consisting of rofl stomping weak enemies, However if that does turn out to be the future I welcome it over the old system.

I am glad to see that everyone is suffering both soloers and partiers a like. I didn't approve of the 7x party exp I don't want a repeat of 11. I'd like soloing to be possible on the days where i don't have time to commit to party play or even a duo and trio situation where i'd prefer viable leveling with a more intimate group of personal friends. I think successfully playing with a girlfriend or buddy would help break up the monotony of constantly having to seek out 6 members, It would also allow me to use different skills than i normally would in a party. I am all for larger parties getting more exp but I really think having 90% large party based leveling is a bad idea and not what the developers intended.

Its important for players to leave feedback and it is good to see people voicing their concerns, I'm just trying to relax and consider all of the evidence. For now i plan to level other jobs instead of potentially waisting a lot of time grinding just to get a little bit ahead of everyone.

I hope those of you adjusting to the change will take it with a grain of salt and see it as an overall step forward despite being unable to advance at a reasonable pace.

tl;dr
SE's trying to keep everyone from leveling too fast, large parties are a bad idea but i still can agree that clearing fields of weak enemies is a boring way to level and shouldn't be the most efficient. 6 man parties should be ideal but solo's,duo's,and trio's shouldn't incur 1/6th the exp of large parties, the way the old sp system promoted.



First off. They improved the SP needed for Ranks 11-31 and they did so saying they wanted more people to more easily get to 20-30+ for class quest, missions, and enjoying new areas.

Second, the simple explanation for the state of SP gains right now is that this game was not programmed for static SP gains that we have now. It was rushed to appease the populace and probably just needs tweaks. A lot of people seem to think that SP party bonus may not be working properly at all now, which would explain why solo seems better for now. SE does not work much on weekends, I expect a post early next week about the SP situation and other bugs since the patch.

Do you really think SE would work so hard to win back players, including trying to change the SP mechanic to how we want it, only to try to sneak in a slow down to leveling??? They are trying to win us back, not push us away.
#4MclarenTAGPorsche, Posted: Nov 28 2010 at 10:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SE ****** up again
#5 Nov 28 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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It's funny that so many are complaining about "poor SP gains" when 2 months ago these same people were saying they would be satisfied with less sp over all for consistent gains and no 0's...
#6 Nov 28 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Default
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I never said I would be happy with LESS SP gains, and I can't think of anyone who did.

This whole issue of SP, smells of incompetence and lack of testing, or NERF.

Hate to change the subject, but I thought magic accuarcy was going to improve. I haven't seen much of an improvement, and still find spamming dart to be more effective than trying to DIA and Nuke.

#7 Nov 28 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I dont people have taken time to adjust to the new SP system. I agree it still is unbalanced and needs tweaking.. but i found im gaining more SP now than before. Last night 2 LS buddies and i decided to party.. grabbed one other person and put the party seek up. We headed to Copperbell Mines to kill ants. In the begining there were 5 of us getting 60-80 SP per kill. Seems not much.. but we were killing the ants in about 20-30 seconds flat. Another person joined the party and the SP gain jumped to 100 a kill per 15 seconds. We gained about 12k in an hour. pretty good steady SP.. plus everyone got the same SP.. no one was left behind or complaining they werent getting skill ups.
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#8 Nov 28 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Default
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KenJammin wrote:
I think the complaint of party's being less useful than they were is fair, but I think its better than the old system where large partys was almost required to make any real progress. That being said I really think its highly unlikely that SE is gonna have the skill up system primarily consisting of rofl stomping weak enemies, However if that does turn out to be the future I welcome it over the old system.

I am glad to see that everyone is suffering both soloers and partiers a like. I didn't approve of the 7x party exp I don't want a repeat of 11. I'd like soloing to be possible on the days where i don't have time to commit to party play or even a duo and trio situation where i'd prefer viable leveling with a more intimate group of personal friends


I personally think solo players should just F.O.A.D. When I don't have time to party, I craft, or I work on my botany, or I go shopping, or any number of activities that I can do while chatting with friends and my attention span isn't required to keep people alive.

When I want to take a break from crafting however, and go out and kill something larger than rats and beetles, I find there's no parties because the game caters to solo grinding. You can find 20 people standing around a Aetheryte activating their solo 1-2 star leves all happy as a pig in **** that they don't need to read shout or say, or communicate with anyone outside their linkshell. Eff that. Eff soloers for wanting to play massively multi player games. And Eff WoW for making it acceptable.

That is all.
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#9 Nov 28 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Default
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KiranRedtail wrote:

I personally think solo players should just F.O.A.D. When I don't have time to party, I craft, or I work on my botany, or I go shopping, or any number of activities that I can do while chatting with friends and my attention span isn't required to keep people alive.

When I want to take a break from crafting however, and go out and kill something larger than rats and beetles, I find there's no parties because the game caters to solo grinding. You can find 20 people standing around a Aetheryte activating their solo 1-2 star leves all happy as a pig in sh*t that they don't need to read shout or say, or communicate with anyone outside their linkshell. Eff that. Eff soloers for wanting to play massively multi player games. And Eff WoW for making it acceptable.

That is all.


Completely agree.
#10 Nov 28 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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If I remember right ther made it easier/faster to get to 20 so the people could start class quest sooner......
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#11 Nov 28 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ravida wrote:
KiranRedtail wrote:

I personally think solo players should just F.O.A.D. When I don't have time to party, I craft, or I work on my botany, or I go shopping, or any number of activities that I can do while chatting with friends and my attention span isn't required to keep people alive.

When I want to take a break from crafting however, and go out and kill something larger than rats and beetles, I find there's no parties because the game caters to solo grinding. You can find 20 people standing around a Aetheryte activating their solo 1-2 star leves all happy as a pig in sh*t that they don't need to read shout or say, or communicate with anyone outside their linkshell. Eff that. Eff soloers for wanting to play massively multi player games. And Eff WoW for making it acceptable.

That is all.


Completely agree.


Yeah, total BS that people should be able to enjoy the many aspects of MMO's (fighting included) if they don't have the time or extended amount of uninterrupted time to group up. /sarcasm

To appease purists like yourself all SE needs to do is allow solo players the opportunity to still enjoy the game, and give greater(shinier) rewards to those who choose to group. Easy done. Oh hey, don't many other MMO's already do that and it works like...real good?
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#12 Nov 28 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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KiranRedtail wrote:
KenJammin wrote:
I think the complaint of party's being less useful than they were is fair, but I think its better than the old system where large partys was almost required to make any real progress. That being said I really think its highly unlikely that SE is gonna have the skill up system primarily consisting of rofl stomping weak enemies, However if that does turn out to be the future I welcome it over the old system.

I am glad to see that everyone is suffering both soloers and partiers a like. I didn't approve of the 7x party exp I don't want a repeat of 11. I'd like soloing to be possible on the days where i don't have time to commit to party play or even a duo and trio situation where i'd prefer viable leveling with a more intimate group of personal friends


I personally think solo players should just F.O.A.D. When I don't have time to party, I craft, or I work on my botany, or I go shopping, or any number of activities that I can do while chatting with friends and my attention span isn't required to keep people alive.

When I want to take a break from crafting however, and go out and kill something larger than rats and beetles, I find there's no parties because the game caters to solo grinding. You can find 20 people standing around a Aetheryte activating their solo 1-2 star leves all happy as a pig in sh*t that they don't need to read shout or say, or communicate with anyone outside their linkshell. Eff that. Eff soloers for wanting to play massively multi player games. And Eff WoW for making it acceptable.

That is all.


Though I don't agree with your delivery I think this is correct. I think SE intend people to do craft or gathering or market ward shopping solo then go out and party for battles.

Problem in getting a party is that people still believe SP to be broken and everyone is still doing the solo thang.
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#13 Nov 28 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Though I don't agree with your delivery I think this is correct. I think SE intend people to do craft or gathering or market ward shopping solo then go out and party for battles.

Problem in getting a party is that people still believe SP to be broken and everyone is still doing the solo thang.


The 21st century of MMOs disagrees with you.
#14 Nov 28 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Though I don't agree with your delivery I think this is correct. I think SE intend people to do craft or gathering or market ward shopping solo then go out and party for battles.

Problem in getting a party is that people still believe SP to be broken and everyone is still doing the solo thang.


The 21st century of MMOs disagrees with you.


Pretty much, they in fact specifically stated that the majority of this game would be soloable.
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#15 Nov 28 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Though I don't agree with your delivery I think this is correct. I think SE intend people to do craft or gathering or market ward shopping solo then go out and party for battles.

Problem in getting a party is that people still believe SP to be broken and everyone is still doing the solo thang.


The 21st century of MMOs disagrees with you.


Pretty much, they in fact specifically stated that the majority of this game would be soloable.


That they did. This is their first crack at building a game from the ground up to include both solo and party play. I don't really care what they did with FFXI and how people from FFXI thin that might have been solo friendly...it wasn't. Compared to other MMOs, FFXI was still a party centric game. It'll take some time to work out the kinks and present entertaining solutions for both of those styles of play.

The only reason I feel the urge to offer my own little retort to suggestions that party play should be this and solo play should be restricted is because SE told us from the beginning that they wanted this game to be about "do what you want" and how the focus on party play made that very difficult. Had SE said this was going to be another party centric game for whatever reason, I wouldn't have followed its development and I sure as **** wouldn't have bought the game.
#16Hyanmen, Posted: Nov 28 2010 at 2:32 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And had they said the opposite, I would have done the same.
#17 Nov 28 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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The biggest problem with the SP curve has always been 31-50, and no one who has progressed far enough for their opinion to have any merit would ever try to dispute that. It is very telling they decided to pare down 1-31, but left the glaring fault untouched. That said, I think the new SP system sucks because they rushed it out, not because of some conspiracy to slow progress. One of the biggest complaints with the game has always been that it was too grindy (and slow to progress). There is no way--with public opinion on the game as it is--that they would intentionally slow it even further.


Edited, Nov 28th 2010 3:46pm by Furia
#18 Nov 28 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Had SE said this was going to be another party centric game for whatever reason, I wouldn't have followed its development and I sure as **** wouldn't have bought the game.


And had they said the opposite, I would have done the same.

They can't win.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 11:33pm by Hyanmen


They pretty much had to choose, and it seems they decided there was more money in a solo friendly game. But right now their straddling the fence right now is hurting both sides. Its not really all that solo friendly, and they've just removed the bonus to partying (which I think is a bug/mistake).
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#19 Nov 28 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I personally think solo players should just F.O.A.D.



<==== FFXI is that-a-way. Now **** off and go back to lfp.
#20 Nov 28 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Default
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MagnusOshik wrote:
Yeah, total BS that people should be able to enjoy the many aspects of MMO's (fighting included) if they don't have the time or extended amount of uninterrupted time to group up. /sarcasm

To appease purists like yourself all SE needs to do is allow solo players the opportunity to still enjoy the game, and give greater(shinier) rewards to those who choose to group. Easy done. Oh hey, don't many other MMO's already do that and it works like...real good?


If you're not here for the multi player aspects then why are you here? Why do you somehow believe that multi player games are for *you* if all you want to do is mainly solo?

Is there something wrong with all the wonderfully fantastic single player RPGs out there such as Fable, NWN, The Witcher, FFXIII, etc that are filled with a huge variety of content, that you need to come to a social/grouping platform and complain about the lack of solo features?

I don't understand why MMO companies feel the need to pander to these people. Build a MSN style chat client into FFXIII and call it a day, and get back to fixing the group/raid play in FFXIV.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying single player games aren't fun. I loved Titan Quest and all the others, I just don't think MMOs need to foot that bill. You don't show up to a football field where two teams are trying to compete and say "oi, get out of the net please, I want to kick this ball in that direction by myself for a while thanks".

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 3:53pm by KiranRedtail
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#21 Nov 28 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
wonderfully fantastic single player RPGs

Quote:
FFXIII

You're making less sense than the OP.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 3:58pm by Almalexia
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#22 Nov 28 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Default
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My opinion is the people who enjoy playing real MMOs enjoy partying over all else. WoW has evolved and bastardized the genre into something it never should have been.

I don't care if the majority now enjoy 99% of the game being soloable, before WoW made MMOs mainstream (ie: bad) and they were a niche genre 99% of the community preferred group play.

Things become crap once they become popular and start to pander to the ignorant, uncultured and unintelligent masses.

PS: Don't solo players have enough to do? Crafting, Gathering, Browsing Market Wards, Travelling etc. The only thing that requires partying now is battle, what is so bad about making that more rewarding for players over solo play? You guys already have 75% of the game to solo through and you want it to leak into the only part of the game that you can party for?

I don't understand some people's logic.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 4:36pm by tylerbee

KiranRedtail wrote:
MagnusOshik wrote:
Yeah, total BS that people should be able to enjoy the many aspects of MMO's (fighting included) if they don't have the time or extended amount of uninterrupted time to group up. /sarcasm

To appease purists like yourself all SE needs to do is allow solo players the opportunity to still enjoy the game, and give greater(shinier) rewards to those who choose to group. Easy done. Oh hey, don't many other MMO's already do that and it works like...real good?


If you're not here for the multi player aspects then why are you here? Why do you somehow believe that multi player games are for *you* if all you want to do is mainly solo?

Is there something wrong with all the wonderfully fantastic single player RPGs out there such as Fable, NWN, The Witcher, FFXIII, etc that are filled with a huge variety of content, that you need to come to a social/grouping platform and complain about the lack of solo features?

I don't understand why MMO companies feel the need to pander to these people. Build a MSN style chat client into FFXIII and call it a day, and get back to fixing the group/raid play in FFXIV.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying single player games aren't fun. I loved Titan Quest and all the others, I just don't think MMOs need to foot that bill. You don't show up to a football field where two teams are trying to compete and say "oi, get out of the net please, I want to kick this ball in that direction by myself for a while thanks".

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 3:53pm by KiranRedtail


Good call

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 4:37pm by tylerbee
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#23 Nov 28 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
If you're not here for the multi player aspects then why are you here? Why do you somehow believe that multi player games are for *you* if all you want to do is mainly solo?


Many people, especially nowadays when money is tight, don't have the time with their work schedule to devote to a fully party-oriented game. You could argue that these people have no place playing a game like this, then... except that it should be obvious, from a business standpoint, that S.E. wants to draw casual players to the game, since their monthly subscription is more or less the same as hardcore players, and they blow through content much less rapidly.

This means solo content, because games where players have to rely on parties to advance favor those with the time to invest organizing group activities, and discourage casual play. Party play should certainly be emphasized, but we can't see another repeat of FFXI, where a tiny fraction of jobs could solo viable for experience, while others would enter a life and death struggle just by attacking an Easy Prey enemy unless they had a party to support them.

There has to be a balance, or why bother making another game? They could have updated the graphics on FFXI, but instead they created a newer version with a different job system and more solo-friendly content. I for one think they have the right idea, even if their implementation is a little off.
#24 Nov 28 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Default
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Gaile wrote:
Many people, especially nowadays when money is tight, don't have the time with their work schedule to devote to a fully party-oriented game. You could argue that these people have no place playing a game like this, then... except that it should be obvious, from a business standpoint, that S.E. wants to draw casual players to the game, since their monthly subscription is more or less the same as hardcore players, and they blow through content much less rapidly.

This means solo content, because games where players have to rely on parties to advance favor those with the time to invest organizing group activities, and discourage casual play. Party play should certainly be emphasized, but we can't see another repeat of FFXI, where a tiny fraction of jobs could solo viable for experience, while others would enter a life and death struggle just by attacking an Easy Prey enemy unless they had a party to support them.

There has to be a balance, or why bother making another game? They could have updated the graphics on FFXI, but instead they created a newer version with a different job system and more solo-friendly content. I for one think they have the right idea, even if their implementation is a little off.


The gist of your argument seems to be "casual players don't have time to find groups, therefore there should be solo content to appease them".

The major problem I have with this, is that instead of providing single player content in a multi player game, SE should be focusing on reducing the barriers to finding a party, not widening the gap between the casual and *cough* hardcore *cough* experience. Take a look at other MMOs in development and how they're providing scalable multi-player encounters.

The other problem I have, is that you seem to be blind to the thousands of players who will happily solo grind 6-8 hours a day, because they can, rather than form parties.

SE shouldn't spend another minute trying to provide content for people who quite simply, don't want to invest in the social skills required for a multi player RPG.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 5:51pm by KiranRedtail

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 5:53pm by KiranRedtail
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#25 Nov 28 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gaile wrote:
Quote:
If you're not here for the multi player aspects then why are you here? Why do you somehow believe that multi player games are for *you* if all you want to do is mainly solo?


Many people, especially nowadays when money is tight, don't have the time with their work schedule to devote to a fully party-oriented game. You could argue that these people have no place playing a game like this, then... except that it should be obvious, from a business standpoint, that S.E. wants to draw casual players to the game, since their monthly subscription is more or less the same as hardcore players, and they blow through content much less rapidly.

This means solo content, because games where players have to rely on parties to advance favor those with the time to invest organizing group activities, and discourage casual play. Party play should certainly be emphasized, but we can't see another repeat of FFXI, where a tiny fraction of jobs could solo viable for experience, while others would enter a life and death struggle just by attacking an Easy Prey enemy unless they had a party to support them.

There has to be a balance, or why bother making another game? They could have updated the graphics on FFXI, but instead they created a newer version with a different job system and more solo-friendly content. I for one think they have the right idea, even if their implementation is a little off.


I agree completely, MMO's offer a lot of unique gaming opportunities other than a large player base, of which i'd still like to be a part of, just not in my daily activities. Crafting, gathering, shopping, doesn't advance my characters ability to take down monsters as much as leveling a DOW or DOM does. The incentive should be higher than it is not to party's but you should never force players to party.

Do you really think forcing people to party is a good design strategy? MMO's are also about exploration and long term development, if i'm not doing this at my own pace than how is that fun? Also everyone in FFXI leveled in the same areas on the same monsters for the whole game. So many areas left untouched cause the didn't have the perfect party monster.

On the subject of the exp slowdown I don't think SE intended to slow down exp so much as stop an unintended means of gaining decent sp.

I forget who mentioned it was poorly implemented and rushed design, I agree with you. The SP system is better but it needs to be refined, a much easier task than the old SP system. Its an easy fix i hope SE addresses such a major change to the game mechanic instead of leaving us all to wonder what their intentions are. I'd rather them come out and tell us what the change means instead of continuing to tweak the game until we're playing the way they want us to
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#26 Nov 28 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Default
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KenJammin wrote:
Do you really think forcing people to party is a good design strategy? MMO's are also about exploration and long term development, if i'm not doing this at my own pace than how is that fun?


Forcing people to party? Is the thought of grouping with other people so repulsive that you have to be forced to do it? What exactly is the problem? Is it:

a) the difficulty of finding enough people
b) the difficulty of finding the right classes
c) i don't want to interact with other players

If it's A, then SE needs to improve on the party search interface. Personally I would like a little screen that shows all of my jobs and be able to put checkboxes next to the ones I'm LFG/LFW for (Looking for Work meaning my DoH jobs).

Option B is due to the stupid, archaic holy trinity: Tank/Healer/DPS. There's no easy solve for this without overpowering each class, or underpowering the monsters.

Neither Option A or Option B is best solved by just giving up and sticking to single player content.

And if it's Option C, well you already know my response.
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#27 Nov 28 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Basically what I would ideally like to see is mobs that scale to the size of the party, from a single player all the way up to a 15 man raid. For example, the HP might go up by 1.8X for every player that joined, and the damage and XP/SP would increase by 1.2.

Right now it seems that if you're solo'ing a mob, and getting 200SP, if someone joins your party you end up getting 105SP, but kill it in half the time and quickly run out of spawns, so your best bet is to find a place to solo grind.

In my scenario, a crab with 1000HP that hit for 100dmg and gave 100SP to a solo player, would have 1800HP, hit for 120, and give 120SP to a 2 person party. 3240HP, 144 dmg/SP for a 3 man party, etc. You're rewarded for grouping, yet I can still go out there and farm for say crab legs without needing to find a group (one of my big FFXI pet peeves was not being able to farm meat for mith'kabobs).

Right now if I see a group of 5 people beating on a monster, they don't want another player. Another player means less SP for them, and the mobs die faster, so they have to spend more time running around or waiting on respawns.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 6:52pm by KiranRedtail
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#28 Nov 28 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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If you want to play by yourself why play an MMO. Party play was the best part of 11. It may have taken a long time to get a party, but when you did it was fun, and it is fun in this game. The only problem is that before, everyone was just spamming attack or some ability to get max sp. Nobody wants to leave before the fight is done to pull another mob or do anything that will reduce sp, so roles were severely limited. Now sp sucks for parties, and because things are more difficult now, fighting the standard sp mobs is not as viable. If you like soloing, then solo, but don't get mad just because people who are willing to work together are getting more sp than you.
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#29 Nov 28 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Default
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If you're not here for the multi player aspects then why are you here? Why do you somehow believe that multi player games are for *you* if all you want to do is mainly solo?


I agree 100%. If you like to solo, then go to a solo-built game such as WoW. Please don't invest your money into a traditionally party-tuned franchise and complain to be catered to.


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Many people, especially nowadays when money is tight, don't have the time with their work schedule to devote to a fully party-oriented game.


If money is tight and you're busy, console games are a perfect solution for you. Everything is done at your own pace, they offer many of the same options as an MMO, and they're cheaper. The PS3 version of XIV on Gamestop.com is going for $49.99 at the moment, plus the $12.99 monthly fee. A console game like Star Ocean: TLH is $59.99 at release and that's it. The only thing you don't get is P2P interaction, which isn't important if you're a soloer, or at least not important enough.


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Do you really think forcing people to party is a good design strategy? MMO's are also about exploration and long term development, if i'm not doing this at my own pace than how is that fun?


Yes being forced or "encouraged" to party is a good idea, IMO. I learned things about my jobs on FFXI that would have taken me much longer to figure out had I not partied with people who had played them before. Some of the best experiences are when you get a group to commit to some new content and you all go and destroy it together. And you can do things at your own pace. There's always people below your level that are coming up, so if your current group surpasses you, a whole new group is there to hook up with.


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I'd rather them come out and tell us what the change means instead of continuing to tweak the game until we're playing the way they want us to.


Attention: SE designed the game. They payed for the development. We bought it. We play it the way they want us to in the end. We can offer up suggestions for tweaks, new stuff, etc, but in the end it is their game.
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#30 Nov 28 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm okay with parties being required for most activities but for everything? What fun is leveling if the only display of your strength is done only with the accumulated strength of other players? Why have a job system that allows for different play styles if i'm gonna be constantly constrained to my class roll cause every other job will take care of keeping me alive, and facing up against the monster? Why do all my long term goals need to involve other players, always?

I agree that party play should be a majority of gameplay, but I don't think that everyone should aways be forced to do it. I spend all day at a job where i'm forced to interact with other people, I have a family and friends. Video games are my "Me time" activity, do I now need to continue to relinquish my independent tendency's so that you guys have an easier time to find people to play with? You'll most likely get the advantage over soloers once SE works out the new SP system but to remove soloing completely is just unfair. You don't enjoy soloing, most people do their are 0 annoyances I can go back to camp whenever I want, I can turn of the game, I can lay dead in a field, I can just start wandering off and fight different monsters, I have freedom to do what I want when i want to. I hate players like you that insist that i'm being a baby when your the ones who are upset that i'm soloing. I agree that parties should get the benefits, and that having an advantage over soloing makes parties more fun I'm okay with that. But to remove soloing completely? How is that fair? I think partying should be the fastest way to level but how could you possibly think removing soloing completely is fair to the players who don't share your play style? Their are times when I do enjoy partying just not 100% of every activity I do in the game.

FFXI had an awesome party system, but forcing players to level, quest, and accomplish tasks in large groups was one of the main contributing factors to the games struggle to break 1million active users. Its like the SP system, sure ideally you could make it work but you don't exactly have the time and resources to constantly be adjusting a broken system. Sure you could streamline partying so that it takes only seconds to find members, but its so unrealistic to think thats possibility. Let me solo, maybe you should take the time to form a static party and form strong relationships with your LS mates instead of forcing every player to gather whenever you want to engage in a social dynamic...
#31 Nov 28 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Default
I'm suggesting that people who want to strictly solo are in the wrong place. People say that they want to be able to do their own thing, whenever they feel like it, but theres one problem with that. There would be no variety between classes. I'll use XI as a template again for this one.

In XI, the only real jobs that could solo IT mobs or strong NM's were RDM or BLU. Some other jobs such as NIN, MNK, and DRG could with very specific subjobs and gear sets. All others virtually required help because each class is made for a specific purpose. A WHM shouldn't be able to solo a lvl 80 Dragon.

I see a lot of people applauding solo content, but wanna be able to do it on every class. This creates zero diversity because each job is essentially the same as all others. Why don't all classes get access to Dual-Wield and healing abilities? It'd be extremely boring to get a group of 15 healers Dual-Wielding daggers to go and swing all 30 daggers at all the Scorpion's feet while they heal themselves. There's less effort/strategy.

If people are content with being restricted to 1 or 2 jobs that can solo and don't mind that they wont be able to solo all the NM's, bosses and quests, then I have no problem. When they want a 50/50 split on the content, or even 60/40, I think that's an issue. I'm not saying its the final stance, just my opinion.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 8:53pm by IKickYoDog
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Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#32 Nov 28 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
I'm suggesting that people who want to strictly solo are in the wrong place.
Edited, Nov 28th 2010 8:53pm by IKickYoDog


Again, being that SE has said they want this game to be very solo friendly, they are not in the wrong place.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 9:21pm by KujaKoF
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#33 Nov 28 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Default
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KujaKoF wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
I'm suggesting that people who want to strictly solo are in the wrong place.
Edited, Nov 28th 2010 8:53pm by IKickYoDog


Again, being that SE has said they want this game to be very solo friendly, they are not in the wrong place.


Again, being that the only statements I can see from SE are that they want FFXIV to be 'casual friendly', and casual does not equal solo, they are in the wrong place.

The fatigue system, which was designed to keep casual and hardcore players on a level playing field (ha!), is targeted at around 8 hours per week before penalties start up. 8 hours a week is casual play, and it's MORE than enough time for you to make friends and find groups.
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#34 Nov 28 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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The major problem I have with this, is that instead of providing single player content in a multi player game, SE should be focusing on reducing the barriers to finding a party, not widening the gap between the casual and *cough* hardcore *cough* experience. Take a look at other MMOs in development and how they're providing scalable multi-player encounters.

The other problem I have, is that you seem to be blind to the thousands of players who will happily solo grind 6-8 hours a day, because they can, rather than form parties.


I agree with you that as an MMO, group activities should be a very strong focus for the developers. While I'm a casual player, I also happen to enjoy party play over solo grinding. I've always enjoyed cooperative games over single player because it adds another dimension to the tactics and brings a greater sense of accomplishment to me knowing that I'm not the only one who's succeeded. Taking down a tough monster solo is great fun, but tackling an insanely tough monster or a group of monsters with a party is essentially the point of an MMO.

Personally, I think party XP should be encouraged, and players should be rewarded handsomely for grouping. WoW was fun for a while because I wasn't dependent on 5 other people to advance in level, but FFXI was more demanding and thus rewarding in the long run, and the focus on cooperation is what really caught me.

But realistically, I'm one of those people who's forced into casual mode. FFXI's format was not very inviting to people in my position, because soloing, after a certain point save for a handful of jobs, wasn't a practical alternative.

That's really what I'm looking for in this game, a practical alternative that allows for a decent rate of solo XP. I don't think solo should be on par with, or even necessarily near what party XP could give, but it should be there for those of us who still want to level a job but can't always fit party play into our schedules.

I think a balance can be reached where solo content doesn't eclipse party play. We're obviously not there yet, but then the game hasn't had much time to settle yet, given that it was released a bit prematurely.
#35 Nov 28 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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What irks me the most was SEs admission of making this new SP system to offer even MORE SP in groups than before - for the sole reason of being high enough to enjoy the upcoming content (NMs, company stuff, etc).

But here we are with this big SP Nerf(parties) which flies on the face of that announcement. Pretty big pill to swallow, IMO.
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#36 Nov 28 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The fatigue system, which was designed to keep casual and hardcore players on a level playing field (ha!), is targeted at around 8 hours per week before penalties start up. 8 hours a week is casual play, and it's MORE than enough time for you to make friends and find groups.


But obviously, there's more to the game than you can fit into 8 hours a week, since they expect plenty of players to spend more than that time. Players also have to make money to afford and maintain gear. This means that casual players necessarily will tend to progress slower. The ability to solo some xp here and there is a godsend, and goes a long way toward ensuring that casual gamers can actually participate when it does come time to party up.
#37 Nov 28 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Default
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Gaile wrote:
The ability to solo some xp here and there is a godsend, and goes a long way toward ensuring that casual gamers can actually participate when it does come time to party up.


Is that not what Battlecraft guild leves are for? If I was a casual player, I would log in for 2 hours every 2-3 days, do 4-6 Battlecraft leves, a few local leves, and log off again.
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#38 Nov 28 2010 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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KiranRedtail wrote:
Gaile wrote:
The ability to solo some xp here and there is a godsend, and goes a long way toward ensuring that casual gamers can actually participate when it does come time to party up.


Is that not what Battlecraft guild leves are for? If I was a casual player, I would log in for 2 hours every 2-3 days, do 4-6 Battlecraft leves, a few local leves, and log off again.


Nope, battlecraft leves, in fact all types of leves are a form of supplement to SP, not a diet, even for a casual player.
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#39 Nov 28 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess it depends on what you define as casual

For me casual is anything under 10 hours a week which 16 x 4 battle a crafting leves is enough to accomodate
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#40 Nov 28 2010 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
I guess it depends on what you define as casual

For me casual is anything under 10 hours a week which 16 x 4 battle a crafting leves is enough to accomodate


Actually I don;t think its what I think, he think, she think, whatsoever thinks, more like what SE thinks thats important since they are the one making or breaking the game.
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#41 Nov 29 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Well you are contradicting yourself because you're acting like you know what defines casual by your prior comment...
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#42 Nov 29 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Well you are contradicting yourself because you're acting like you know what defines casual by your prior comment...


Nope I say, supplement for casual play, in direct reply to KiranRedtail's comment to Gaile comment about having good solo content, since SE never did stated that leves are a way for casual players to level and should be the only way to level.

Rather they say they wanted to create a system that even casual players can feel they accomplished something when they log in and log out.
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#43 Nov 29 2010 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Humster wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Well you are contradicting yourself because you're acting like you know what defines casual by your prior comment...


Nope I say, supplement for casual play, in direct reply to KiranRedtail's comment to Gaile comment about having good solo content, since SE never did stated that leves are a way for casual players to level and should be the only way to level.

Rather they say they wanted to create a system that even casual players can feel they accomplished something when they log in and log out.


Well since they are the only content in the game, outside of grinding (which you do in leves anyway), I got the impression by supplement you meant that they would complete all leves and then start grinding.

Considering the amount of time it takes to do all your leves, completing all those leves over a one week period would make me think that player isn't casual. Then to suggest they do more grinding on top of that kinda makes me think ;o

One week = Approximately 74 leves which even at 10 minutes each is six hours a week not considering travel time and other activities which would easily equal an additional 10 hours.

HOWEVER, i'm just being technical and finnicky and it doesn't really matter in the end xD
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#44 Nov 29 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Humster wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Well you are contradicting yourself because you're acting like you know what defines casual by your prior comment...


Nope I say, supplement for casual play, in direct reply to KiranRedtail's comment to Gaile comment about having good solo content, since SE never did stated that leves are a way for casual players to level and should be the only way to level.

Rather they say they wanted to create a system that even casual players can feel they accomplished something when they log in and log out.


Well since they are the only content in the game, outside of grinding (which you do in leves anyway), I got the impression by supplement you meant that they would complete all leves and then start grinding.

Considering the amount of time it takes to do all your leves, completing all those leves over a one week period would make me think that player isn't casual. Then to suggest they do more grinding on top of that kinda makes me think ;o

One week = Approximately 74 leves which even at 10 minutes each is six hours a week not considering travel time and other activities which would easily equal an additional 10 hours.

HOWEVER, i'm just being technical and finnicky and it doesn't really matter in the end xD


Well, I can hardly manage to do 30 leves in 1 week... (>....>. I stay in 1 city most of the time. Since travel screws up time. So its either travel around the world hunting leves are do what can be done on this city then grind(<-- for a reason). Then move to another city 2 or 3 days down the road.

The currently SP system for Battle gameplay hurts me quite a little. Others types gathering and crafting not much.
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#45 Nov 29 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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KiranRedtail wrote:
MagnusOshik wrote:
Yeah, total BS that people should be able to enjoy the many aspects of MMO's (fighting included) if they don't have the time or extended amount of uninterrupted time to group up. /sarcasm

To appease purists like yourself all SE needs to do is allow solo players the opportunity to still enjoy the game, and give greater(shinier) rewards to those who choose to group. Easy done. Oh hey, don't many other MMO's already do that and it works like...real good?


If you're not here for the multi player aspects then why are you here? Why do you somehow believe that multi player games are for *you* if all you want to do is mainly solo?

Is there something wrong with all the wonderfully fantastic single player RPGs out there such as Fable, NWN, The Witcher, FFXIII, etc that are filled with a huge variety of content, that you need to come to a social/grouping platform and complain about the lack of solo features?

I don't understand why MMO companies feel the need to pander to these people. Build a MSN style chat client into FFXIII and call it a day, and get back to fixing the group/raid play in FFXIV.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying single player games aren't fun. I loved Titan Quest and all the others, I just don't think MMOs need to foot that bill. You don't show up to a football field where two teams are trying to compete and say "oi, get out of the net please, I want to kick this ball in that direction by myself for a while thanks".

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 3:53pm by KiranRedtail
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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#46 Nov 29 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I get really bugged when people refer to WoW as a solo game. Don't get me wrong, I'm in the crowd that doesn't think WoW is the end-all be-all of MMOs, but the belance between solo and group play in WoW is one thing they got right.

The solo content is the small stuff, the "go here and kill stuff" or" go deliver this" quests. They build experience and help a player become familiar with an area without having to drag friends around doing mundane tasks (however the option is still open). You can enjoy the game but you won't be able to experience the bigger, more epic content that a group provides. Anyone who's had a fool show up to a raid wearing quested greens knows what I mean. There's still a good bit of solo content, however. Additionally, there's PvP.

If you really want to take things further you have to group. This is why in WoW you don't see one man raids. You won't fill out your character with purples without joining and paricipating in groups on a regular basis. You surely will not see a great deal of content without grouping, or "playing in multiplayer" as one poster in here said.

There is a benefit for solo play in FFXIV. This does not have to come at the expense of group play and can in fact support it in ways. The problem FFXIV players face right now is both soloers and group players are starved for content. There's just not enough to do, which is complicated by other factors such as the SP gain in higher levels and of course a playerbase that insist the game cater to only their crowd and no one else's.
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#47 Nov 29 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah the problem is WoW is a solo game 1-80 then you group up at 80 if you feel like it.

Alot of people consider the word grouping in different contexts too. Most newer MMO players thinking grouping is grouping akin to the literal term. Grouping has a much deeper meaning for those of us who've been around MMOs for the last wee while.
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#48 Nov 29 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
I get really bugged when people refer to WoW as a solo game. Don't get me wrong, I'm in the crowd that doesn't think WoW is the end-all be-all of MMOs, but the belance between solo and group play in WoW is one thing they got right.

The solo content is the small stuff, the "go here and kill stuff" or" go deliver this" quests. They build experience and help a player become familiar with an area without having to drag friends around doing mundane tasks (however the option is still open). You can enjoy the game but you won't be able to experience the bigger, more epic content that a group provides. Anyone who's had a fool show up to a raid wearing quested greens knows what I mean. There's still a good bit of solo content, however. Additionally, there's PvP.

If you really want to take things further you have to group. This is why in WoW you don't see one man raids. You won't fill out your character with purples without joining and paricipating in groups on a regular basis. You surely will not see a great deal of content without grouping, or "playing in multiplayer" as one poster in here said.

There is a benefit for solo play in FFXIV. This does not have to come at the expense of group play and can in fact support it in ways. The problem FFXIV players face right now is both soloers and group players are starved for content. There's just not enough to do, which is complicated by other factors such as the SP gain in higher levels and of course a playerbase that insist the game cater to only their crowd and no one else's.


I agree with this here. I don't see why mundane things shouldn't be solo. Nobodys talking about soloing behemoths or dragons endgame, but the ability to solo for SP is important to alot of people. I think one of the biggest things wow did right was allowing players to XP solo, and I think its one of the reasons that NA/EU MMO populations went from around 1 mil to 15 over the past 15 years.
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#49 Nov 29 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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The simple reason is if everything can be done solo as efficiently or without the need for a party then people will gravitate toward doing everything solo.

Simply because you can rely on your own skill instead of others. There will always be awesome players, average players and bad players.

If you make solo efficient then the awesome and average players will prefer to solo, which means that noone parties.

If noone parties, you've just ruined an MMO.

And by partying I mean partying for a few hours, getting to know people, crafting or repairing their gear in the field, meeting up again with the same people to do the same thing, travelling to new places together and setting up, discussing new mobs to fight and what would be efficient, skill chains, exploring new areas, forming lasting friendships and bonds and then because of an "instant travel" system, value running into those people and having a chat in the open world and similar. Real partying.

I don't mean partying by joining a dungeon automatically, being teleported there, looking at 5 faceless/random people who you dont gave a crap about, not speaking a word for half an hour or forming any friendships, facerolling across your keyboard to advance and then leaving to repeat the process again.
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#50 Nov 29 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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I play FFXIV for the PvP.

But really, there's only two reasons people play MMOs, one of which is to gather a group of people and accomplish a shared goal, giving a sense of teamwork and shared accomplishment. The other can be summed up in this picture:

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq262/Code1337777/Xbawks2.png

I actually fall into the second category. I'm sure there are more reasons, but these are the most popular.

Edit: **** you image!

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 7:47pm by TetsuoShimaReal
#51 Nov 29 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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I like to solo xp. I also like to party from time to time.

I don't mind if solo players can gain an nice bit of xp, albeit it should be at a slower rate than parties.

What I want, what I miss and what FFXIV lacks, is those milestones that require parties to accomplish.

I would like to see things like Level cap quests, AF quests, Missions etc that require parties to beat.

These are the things that make people group together. I want to see people shouting in towns for help with so-and-so quest. Bringing people together in the community.

As it stands in FFXIV there isn't any real reason to help other players.

I used to enjoy playing FFXI where I could be in a town and hear someone asking for help and join in.

Solo xp, no problems with that. But soloing your way through the entire game, something is missing.




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