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#1 Nov 28 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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I was originally an advocate for a death penalty like FFXI's. It makes the game and everything you do more exciting because you truly fight to stay alive. Since a death penalty such as losing SP/XP is so unpopular, I had an idea that we should get bonuses for staying alive.

We can have something like if you kill 250 mobs that grant SP/XP without dying then you get some sort of bonus. I don't know what it'll be exactly, maybe an SP/XP bonus, or a boost to stats or damage, etc. The bonus could last for the class you got it on until you die as that class. You can also have higher tiers of bonuses for staying alive for greater lengths of time. Perhaps when you reach level cap there will be other ways of earning bonuses.

A system like this should make players care enough to not want to die, but if they do they're not exactly punished like in FFXI. I posted this in the feedback forum but I don't think that's really meant for discussions between players. Any thoughts on this or does anyone have any other interesting things they can do to make players care about dieing?

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 6:18pm by Jeraziah
#2 Nov 28 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm still for a death penalty that costs exp, but I'm a minority that likes that. At this point though, I would be happy with ANY kind of incentive not to die. As it stands now people can go wherever they want trying to kill whatever they want with no negative effects. Dying is a minor inconvenience at best at the moment. A majority of people use it for a free teleport back to wherever their HP is. At least in XI people would think twice about if they wanted to death port or not.
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#3 Nov 28 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Default
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I think that's a great idea, but it wouldn't stop players from making exactly the same complaint. If you give some people a bonus, the people who don't have it will still complain about a penalty.

And, there's actually some validity to that perspective. If you give everyone except the recently-dead a 10% bonus, that really is almost exactly the same as giving the recent dead a 10% penalty. I like the idea of an increasing bonus for staying alive, though, although there would need to be some clever mechanics to keep people from taking death too seriously ("Come PL me while I solo at rank 3. I don't want to risk dying and losing my bonus for tomorrow's raid.")
#4 Nov 28 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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How aout being unable to return your stuff with you? And the longer it stays out there, the more damage it gets.

Although, I thought that so far there is a death penalty of sorts, your gear gets damaged. And from what I can tell everyone hates repairing their gear.
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#5 Nov 28 2010 at 6:07 PM Rating: Default
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Maybe imposing a longer weakness, say like 30 minutes. I'd take losing sp/xp over having to wait 30 minutes. Yea it might be extreme but I'm pretty sure peeps will think VERY LONG AND HARD before taking a reckless risk.
#6 Nov 28 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Default
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Oooo, following the "gear gets damaged" idea, what if they upped the ante there? Say, if you are wearing gear that is damaged already when you're KOed, there's a possibility of it completely breaking, as in huge crack across a breastplate that is just beyond repair, making you have to buy new gear. Or at the very least, have to buy a more expensive part to repair the piece. Then crafters can repair for more SP than usual, which would make such repairs very appealing to do for random strangers, possibly for less fee than a normal repair (or for free, if the part is provided).

That would suck, you'd have to buy the repair part, get a crafter, and repair your gear before you can go back out. That's a lot of sp, and a lot of frustration, for dying. Incentive for not dying?
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#7 Nov 28 2010 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...
#8 Nov 28 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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I'll never understand the call for a death penalty like it's a functional gameplay mechanic. A death penalty doesn't usually add depth or difficulty (especially in situations where death can be completely unavoidable). Tedium isn't the same thing as genuine difficulty and a harsh death penalty falls into the realm of pointless tedium. In the long run something like a death penalty doesn't punish players who are reckless. It winds up punishing the players who have the balls to go out and attempt difficult content.

Sure you might want something to discourage people from going plain ol' vanilla crazy and rushing in blind, but you should have a system that's slightly inconvenient instead of something that hits you in the face with a nail-studded bat. Losing a little bit of money? Fine. Having your gear damaged or broken? Okay. Having to recover your body? Sure. But losing physical progress like EXP? It's completely unacceptable to slap your players in the face for actually playing the game.

Anyone who liked the death penalty in FFXI most likely played a job that had no trouble getting the lost exp back or could likely be clinically defined as a *********. FFXI had many good things. The death penalty wasn't one of them and FFXIV doesn't need it either.
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#9 Nov 28 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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I remember being a young white mage in XI deciding to get the first 3 tele scrolls. Using sneek and invisi to go to the bad places ( Gusgen Mines, Garlaige Citadel and the Eldieme Necropolis ) where the scrolls could be found left me shaking and holding my breath knowing that either spell could wear off and I could die a painful death. Even if the same creepy places existed in XIV, without the pain of a harsh death penalty the quests wouldn't have been as memorable.
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#10 Nov 28 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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Wow...

If I mess up please punish the crap out of me.... you guys are sick lol

I like the idea of positive reinforcement. Give me good things if I don't mess up rather than F'ing my world up if I decide to do something like solo a R20 leve at R11... 800sp each mob by the way, Died 5 times over the course of 3
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#11 Nov 28 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...


I'm pretty sure the general consensus is having a stricter death penalty to help create better players. Having no real penalty for death creates a false sense of security. Enforcing stronger death penalties advocates creative strategies and better game play.
#12 Nov 28 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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@tacotaru

My heart still beat like crazy going north of Ul'dah through Mor Dhona to get to... forget the area, starts with a C, to get to Ishgard. Still as exciting, because dying and being sent back to my last camp is enough incentive for me.
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#13 Nov 28 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordBalrog wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...


I'm pretty sure the general consensus is having a stricter death penalty to help create better players. Having no real penalty for death creates a false sense of security. Enforcing stronger death penalties advocates creative strategies and better game play.


No it won't. The people who want to be better players will learn to be better players. They don't need a kick in the nuts as incentive. The people who don't want to be better players will never be better players and kicking them in the nuts isn't going to change that. The people who want to be better players but just aren't really "gamers" but want to enjoy the game anyways aren't served by a kick in the nuts, either.
#14 Nov 28 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Default
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Hmm.... how about instead of xp loss like XI, or the rampant gear damage as suggested (which actually, I don't think is that bad of an idea) you get a nice happy return trip to your city of origin?

Talk about suck....yeah, you don't lose xp....you don't lose gil (or time, searching for repairs) on your gear... you just spend forever (or some anima if you have it) getting back to where you were?

And I don't think it's question of being masochistic in wanting to punish ourselves for failure....but right now, death just means you look **** laying there, and then a few minutes out grabbing a smoke. (Although, that last might just be me. >.>)
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#15 Nov 28 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm still for a death penalty that costs exp

me too nothing make you wanna stay alive more.

i think teleporting alot should give you a penalty also, give you some type of sickness.
#16 Nov 28 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordBalrog wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...


I'm pretty sure the general consensus is having a stricter death penalty to help create better players. Having no real penalty for death creates a false sense of security. Enforcing stronger death penalties advocates creative strategies and better game play.


When you're slapped in the face for dying it makes people not want to attempt new strategies and instead pigeon-holes everyone into the same cookie cutter ways of doing things. A small penalty is fine, a strict penalty is silly and somewhat defeats the purpose of exploration and experimentation.
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#17 Nov 28 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno, when my cat kept wanting to climb up furniture he shouldn't (being bad), getting sprayed with the water mister a few times taught him not to do that anymore. Think of this as a discussion on an XIV style water mister.
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#18 Nov 28 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gadhelyn wrote:
I dunno, when my cat kept wanting to climb up furniture he shouldn't (being bad), getting sprayed with the water mister a few times taught him not to do that anymore. Think of this as a discussion on an XIV style water mister.


Losing time to get back to where you were and wait out the weakness debuff is a water mister. XP loss would be like slapping your cat in the back of the head. A slap won't kill him. Probably won't even injure him. Acceptable? No. Necessary? Obviously not if the mister worked.
#19 Nov 28 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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MasterOutlaw the Irrelevant wrote:
I'll never understand the call for a death penalty like it's a functional gameplay mechanic. A death penalty doesn't usually add depth or difficulty (especially in situations where death can be completely unavoidable). Tedium isn't the same thing as genuine difficulty and a harsh death penalty falls into the realm of pointless tedium. In the long run something like a death penalty doesn't punish players who are reckless. It winds up punishing the players who have the balls to go out and attempt difficult content.

Sure you might want something to discourage people from going plain ol' vanilla crazy and rushing in blind, but you should have a system that's slightly inconvenient instead of something that hits you in the face with a nail-studded bat. Losing a little bit of money? Fine. Having your gear damaged or broken? Okay. Having to recover your body? Sure. But losing physical progress like EXP? It's completely unacceptable to slap your players in the face for actually playing the game.

Anyone who liked the death penalty in FFXI most likely played a job that had no trouble getting the lost exp back or could likely be clinically defined as a *********. FFXI had many good things. The death penalty wasn't one of them and FFXIV doesn't need it either.


There needs to be more people like you around here... Seriously their are way too many people around here that put up weak arguments as to why their way should be. Dying in FFXI and fear of dying in FFXI caused way too much party drama as well. Having to wait 5 min to recover and suffering gear damage is more than enough to get me to yell at my computer screen thank you very much. I don't need an entire community fuming over the internet every time their dealt a cheap hand. Lower death costs is a step forward, it was interesting concept but way too idealistic to have it implemented in a game trying to be less niche. We all experienced it and I was not a fan, i'm glad SE did away with it. I don't need a large penalty back peddling my progress to encourage me to play strategically thanks...
#20 Nov 28 2010 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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MasterOutlaw the Irrelevant wrote:
When you're slapped in the face for dying it makes people not want to attempt new strategies and instead pigeon-holes everyone into the same cookie cutter ways of doing things. A small penalty is fine, a strict penalty is silly and somewhat defeats the purpose of exploration and experimentation.


That couldn't be farther from the truth. FFXI is the best example, it had a very harsh death penalty yet there were so many creative ways and combinations to accomplish tasks. Conversely you can look at a game like WoW which was fairly light on death penalties (Repairs when gold is readily available) and everyone used the same strategy for every encounter without any real variation.

Quote:
There needs to be more people like you around here... Seriously their are way too many people around here that put up weak arguments as to why their way should be. Dying in FFXI and fear of dying in FFXI caused way too much party drama as well.


FFXI had, actually still has, the best community in any MMO I've ever participated in, and I've played a lot of MMOs over the years. Everyone now and then you'd get someone who took things way too seriously, but I don't think that had to do with losing XP. They're inevitably going to snap over something and behave that way eventually. I don't think a few people who can't manage their emotions and behavior should ruin our game now.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 8:13pm by Jeraziah
#21 Nov 28 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Default
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MasterOutlaw the Irrelevant wrote:
LordBalrog wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...


I'm pretty sure the general consensus is having a stricter death penalty to help create better players. Having no real penalty for death creates a false sense of security. Enforcing stronger death penalties advocates creative strategies and better game play.


When you're slapped in the face for dying it makes people not want to attempt new strategies and instead pigeon-holes everyone into the same cookie cutter ways of doing things. A small penalty is fine, a strict penalty is silly and somewhat defeats the purpose of exploration and experimentation.


We could argue all day because we're going to have a "the greater the risk the greater the reward" mentality vs "too harsh or mindless punishment for enjoyment" mentality.

This is what separated the old school MMO's from crap like WoW.
#22 Nov 28 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Ever notice how arcade games that we remember fondly are no fun at home now that you can give yourself unlimited credits and just keep continuing from the spot you died? The difference is that there used to be a meaningful incentive to stay alive (continuing cost money, and you could run out) and now there isn't. It's the classic example of how a penalty for dying can make a game more fun, even though it's a bad thing.
#23 Nov 28 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordBalrog wrote:
We could argue all day because we're going to have a "the greater the risk the greater the reward" mentality vs "too harsh or mindless punishment for enjoyment" mentality.

This is what separated the old school MMO's from crap like WoW.


No, what seperates the "old school" MMO's from "crap" like WoW is that old school MMOs were for the hardcore type who were okay with penalties that effectively cost them additional time beyond the immediate consequence of dying to recover from. FFXIV is not aimed for the hardcore crowd. SE has said they want to include elements for hardcore people as well as casuals, but death penalties affect both types of players and as such, thought has to be given to them from the casual point of view. And the casual gamer today typically isn't interested in penalties that cost them not only time to run back and wait out weakness but also time to regain lost progression.

You guys need to stop trying to jam your square hardcore peg into the round casual hole. Leave my ******* hole alone.
#24 Nov 28 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jeraziah wrote:
MasterOutlaw the Irrelevant wrote:
When you're slapped in the face for dying it makes people not want to attempt new strategies and instead pigeon-holes everyone into the same cookie cutter ways of doing things. A small penalty is fine, a strict penalty is silly and somewhat defeats the purpose of exploration and experimentation.


That couldn't be farther from the truth. FFXI is the best example, it had a very harsh death penalty yet there were so many creative ways and combinations to accomplish tasks. Conversely you can look at a game like WoW which was fairly light on death penalties (Repairs when gold is readily available) and everyone used the same strategy for every encounter without any real variation.


Maybe I quit FFXI before all of these 'creative ways and combinations' came to light, but for the five years I was active everyone tended to do things the same ways every time. When Skill Chains were the big thing the most variation you ran into was deciding what weaponskills to use to make the proper chains for what you were fighting. When people started to gravitate towards zergs you saw them bringing the same few jobs to the fight, leaving the 'lesser' dps jobs on the bench. Players rarely ever strayed away from what was considered the norm.

That wasn't the full fault of the death penalty, but FFXI most certainly wasn't full of variety (at least variety people actually took advantage of) back when I was playing.
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#25 Nov 28 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Leave my @#%^ing hole alone.


I got a good laugh out of that. Anyway, I've come to realize what you're talking about how this isn't a game for just the hardcore players. That's why I came up with the idea to reward living instead of punishing dieing. My whole desire is to make the game exciting, and to do that you need to care if your character lives or dies.

Quote:
Maybe I quit FFXI before all of these 'creative ways and combinations' came to light, but for the five years I was active everyone tended to do things the same ways every time. When Skill Chains were the big thing the most variation you ran into was deciding what weaponskills to use to make the proper chains for what you were fighting. When people started to gravitate towards zergs you saw them bringing the same few jobs to the fight, leaving the 'lesser' dps jobs on the bench. Players rarely ever strayed away from what was considered the norm.

That wasn't the full fault of the death penalty, but FFXI most certainly wasn't full of variety (at least variety people actually took advantage of) back when I was playing.


I was referring more to content rather than XP parties. There is really no cookie cutter way to do nation missions, BCNMs, other expansion missions, getting artifact gear, etc.

Edited, Nov 28th 2010 8:30pm by Jeraziah
#26 Nov 28 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Caesura wrote:
Ever notice how arcade games that we remember fondly are no fun at home now that you can give yourself unlimited credits and just keep continuing from the spot you died? The difference is that there used to be a meaningful incentive to stay alive (continuing cost money, and you could run out) and now there isn't. It's the classic example of how a penalty for dying can make a game more fun, even though it's a bad thing.


And yet I remember you not helping people through ROTZ and Cop just because the fear of XP loss and no other personal gain for doing so.

Ah memories :D
#27 Nov 28 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno, when my cat kept wanting to climb up furniture he shouldn't (being bad), getting sprayed with the water mister a few times taught him not to do that anymore. Think of this as a discussion on an XIV style water mister.


That's called negative reinforcement: when you don't want someone to do something, punish them when they do it. A strict in game death penalty may discourage people from brazenly attacking monsters that con too high for their level, that's true, but it also discourages players from trying new strategies or combination of gear and abilities in a standard setting because the risk involved in doing so isn't worth the possible gains. In order to avoid the penalty, people rely on the tried and true methods, and sometimes it can be almost impossible to get people to break the mold.

That's different than adding an element of risk, which is meant to offer a sense of accomplishment for having succeeded. Yes, there should be a penalty for failure, otherwise success doesn't much matter. But if you look at penalties as "discouraging bad behavior," really what you're discouraging is the spirit of adventure that a game like this is supposed to foster.

#28 Nov 28 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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Ok heres my sugestion if you want a death penalty everytime you die just punch yourselfs in the genitals. I have never understood the death penalty line of thought on odin my ls was very good we were the first na ls to do sky, one of the first in sea and also toa. We died soooo much that your average week looked like this ...... monday try kirin ... tuesday go recap ....... wed try kirin ....... etc. I mean really if you personally need to be in fear of death on the game lets step it up a notch send me your address and if ya die ill come punch ya in the face. Now were talking! Really guys it is a game relax and enjoy.
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#29 Nov 28 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jeraziah wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Leave my @#%^ing hole alone.


I got a good laugh out of that. Anyway, I've come to realize what you're talking about how this isn't a game for just the hardcore players. That's why I came up with the idea to reward living instead of punishing dieing. My whole desire is to make the game exciting, and to do that you need to care if your character lives or dies.


The trouble with stuff like that is that you can die through absolutely no fault of your own. You can have an internet outage or a power failure. And when it comes to grouping, you magnify that potential for no-fault failure because someone else had a power failure or their router crapped out or their ISP burped.

Penalties don't encourage success. Rewards encourage success. Someone else already (very deliciously) pointed out that one major issue with FFXI where people would refuse to lend a hand in "challenging" content they had already cleared because they weren't willing to risk the XP loss. There's no better way to encourage cliquish, elitist behavior than to penalize people excessively for failure.

Even your idea for a reward for NOT dying would accomplish the same thing. It would have to be a pretty hefty reward to produce the same "dread" of dying you're talking about, and I can just see it now:

"I'm not risking my longevity award for you scrubs."

It's not worth it. You need to let go of it. Really. It just doesn't fit with a game described the way the devs described FFXIV, and they're definitely NOT in a position to backpeddle on their previous statements now.
#30 Nov 28 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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This game already has the durability issue, which is annoying enough to be a "penalty" in itself.

Considering all of the other issues this game has had (before this recent major patch at least) , what do you think a FFXI style death penalty on top of everything else would have done to the already dwindling server populations?

The last thing this game needs right now is something else to deter people from playing...
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#31 Nov 29 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I dunno, when my cat kept wanting to climb up furniture he shouldn't (being bad), getting sprayed with the water mister a few times taught him not to do that anymore. Think of this as a discussion on an XIV style water mister.


This is because your cat is a stupid animal, and operant/classical conditioning works for animals and small children. It doesn't work as well for humans with any reasonable amount of cognitive development. Think of an example of where there's a negative reinforcement or a punishment in place for not doing something, but people do it anyway. If you didn't think of one in less than five seconds, then you might be cognitively challenged enough for conditioning to be your solution.

The problem with XIV is that the feedback you get from death isn't very meaningful. When, say, a basketball player shoots a basket and misses, he doesn't generally have to worry about being punished for missing. He just sees that he missed and knows, **********, I ****** up." He then tries to use the feedback from his miss (too short/long, too far to the left/right) to prevent further misses.

When you die in XIV, you probably didn't do anything particularly wrong, other than pick a fight with something you shouldn't have. There's no real lesson learned or skill acquired in the process of defeat.

What makes death meaningful isn't how much it sucks to be punished, but the fact that you can use the feedback to better yourself as a player. Reversing things by offering a reward for not dying won't change this-- you're actually rewarding people not to take risks (not so different from punishing them for taking risks), which further reduces the incentive for putting themselves in situations where they would actually be challenged, develop skills, and find victory/defeat meaningful.

But this is a concept that the developers clearly don't understand. They didn't understand it in XI, either. They were just a bit luckier in their guesses/theories, it seems, because there were many instances where at least some sort of skill was pertinent (even though it was mostly social skill).
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#32 Nov 29 2010 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Jeraziah wrote:
MasterOutlaw the Irrelevant wrote:
When you're slapped in the face for dying it makes people not want to attempt new strategies and instead pigeon-holes everyone into the same cookie cutter ways of doing things. A small penalty is fine, a strict penalty is silly and somewhat defeats the purpose of exploration and experimentation.


That couldn't be farther from the truth. FFXI is the best example, it had a very harsh death penalty yet there were so many creative ways and combinations to accomplish tasks. Conversely you can look at a game like WoW which was fairly light on death penalties (Repairs when gold is readily available) and everyone used the same strategy for every encounter without any real variation.


Uh, no. FFXI players stick to their strict path as well; the game kills any semblence of experimentation as well. You find me these players that would band together to waste time experimenting and dealing with the death penalty. You can't because they only exist in your imagination.

Secondly, the whole WoW 'one strategy' argument is old. Newsflash: the players use one strategy because the developers themselves have stated several times that they purposely design the fights around only truly having one solution (with minor variations). The death penalty has NOTHING to do with that outcome.

Jeraziah wrote:
Quote:
There needs to be more people like you around here... Seriously their are way too many people around here that put up weak arguments as to why their way should be. Dying in FFXI and fear of dying in FFXI caused way too much party drama as well.


FFXI had, actually still has, the best community in any MMO I've ever participated in, and I've played a lot of MMOs over the years. Everyone now and then you'd get someone who took things way too seriously, but I don't think that had to do with losing XP. They're inevitably going to snap over something and behave that way eventually. I don't think a few people who can't manage their emotions and behavior should ruin our game now.


If you actually DID play other MMOs you would realize how utterly full of sh*t your statement is. FFXI's community is no different than any other MMO community except for the fact that they're the best at deluding themselves into believing they're perfect.

...

Death Penalties in MMOS are outdated concepts. People have come to realize that they don't need to deal with such restrictive and ******* mechanics anymore. If a game constrains them with archaic design choices and they don't like it, they can actually go and play something else. That option simply didn't truly exist when FFXI launched.

You people clammoring for harsher death penalty just reek of the typical image of an old nag in her rocker, complaining because pointless false-difficulties are taken away through improvement over time. Stagnation is bad, mmmkay? Simply because something existed in the past doesn't make it a good decision; one would think dealing with the pre-patch UI of FFXIV would have taught you guys that.

....some of those words don't look right, but considering I'm half lucid with codeine due to dealing with yet another gout attack I can't really make the effort to care.

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 4:30am by StrijderVechter
#33 Nov 29 2010 at 3:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I have to agree, i've been playing MMOs since EQ and Ultima and FFXI is one of the best for community.
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#34 Nov 29 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Good
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Games are about the relationship between risk and reward.


Then again some people like to click a cow 50.000 times...
#35 Nov 29 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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seiferdincht wrote:
Games are about the relationship between risk and reward.


Then again some people like to click a cow 50.000 times...


As a Javazon, I never had to click on a cow. :p
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#36 Nov 29 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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Jeraziah wrote:
That couldn't be farther from the truth. FFXI is the best example, it had a very harsh death penalty yet there were so many creative ways and combinations to accomplish tasks. Conversely you can look at a game like WoW which was fairly light on death penalties (Repairs when gold is readily available) and everyone used the same strategy for every encounter without any real variation.


Sorry guy, WOW fights are designed from the start to only have one solution or strategy (or two for hard modes and whatever). It's also fairly ironic that you say WOW has no variation compared to FFXI, when in WOW every class has a spot in a raid. For the majority of FFXI's existence, several jobs were routinely excluded from exp parties and end game because they were not the optimal setup and a wipe was too costly.
#37 Nov 29 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:

Sorry guy, WOW fights are designed from the start to only have one solution or strategy (or two for hard modes and whatever). It's also fairly ironic that you say WOW has no variation compared to FFXI, when in WOW every class has a spot in a raid. For the majority of FFXI's existence, several jobs were routinely excluded from exp parties and end game because they were not the optimal setup and a wipe was too costly.


Well the reason for this is that SE never really solidified a lot of classes in one of the three roles (Healing, Tanking, DD)- Blizzard does. They don't try to balance this hybrid ******** because they see that the only things people look at when inviting to a group is who will be at the top of the parse. I'm not saying it's *right* - but that's certainly the way it is and the way it was in FFXI. Even the so-called hybrid jobs like RDM weren't invited because they could do juggle three things moderately well, they were brought to stand in the back and throw out cures and hastes like a good little clothie.

However, this is about a death penalty and I cannot believe that people are so intent on punishing themselves in a freaking GAME. It's supposed to be fun, not a kick to the tits. SP loss, Half hour weakness - I mean how long do some of you play this game per day? You REALLY think a half hour weakness is reasonable? Holy crow, that's just amazing.

I think it's fine the way it is. Add too much penalty and the same thing that happened in XI will happen here - people won't help others because it's too risky and takes too much time. That goes against all that pro-community mmo togetherness stuff a lot of you folks preach in other threads, now doesn't it?
#38 Nov 29 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Even your idea for a reward for NOT dying would accomplish the same thing. It would have to be a pretty hefty reward to produce the same "dread" of dying you're talking about, and I can just see it now:

"I'm not risking my longevity award for you scrubs."



This was worded about as perfect as you can. No matter if you are giving or taking, people will draw a standard for what they have and always see the "lack of something" as a loss and act appropriate to being penalized for not having it. Well spoken Aurelius.

~Skye
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#39 Nov 29 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Games are about the relationship between risk and reward.


Well, not all games, but certainly this one.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#40 Nov 29 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...


I must have entered the gamer version of The Twilight Zone. A dimension sound, sight, mind and where wanting games to be fun and challenging makes me a *********.
#41 Nov 29 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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BubbleGumCrisis wrote:
Quote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...


I must have entered the gamer version of The Twilight Zone. A dimension sound, sight, mind and where wanting games to be fun and challenging makes me a *********.


Penalizing death doesn't make whatever killed you more challenging, it just means you take longer to try again. Now if they were to actually make challenging content that'd be one thing, but in this game you're more likely to die running to drybone and bumping into an ant, than actually fighting at drybone.

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 7:50pm by KujaKoF
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#42 Nov 29 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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BubbleGumCrisis wrote:
Quote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...


I must have entered the gamer version of The Twilight Zone. A dimension sound, sight, mind and where wanting games to be fun and challenging makes me a *********.


The challenge comes before the death, not after. The death penalty comes after the death, not before. If we put two and two together we start to realize that a death penalty cannot therefore add to the challenge factor, because it is applied after you've already failed. If being punished is fun for you, then yes, you do start crossing over into ********* territory. If the risk is what gets you all jazzed up and moist, bind farther away from you'll be fighting so that you have to run that much longer to get back if you die. You won't, though. Nobody would. Because all this, "punishment makes the game more FUN!" is mostly a load of double talk.
#43 Nov 29 2010 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordBalrog wrote:
Maybe imposing a longer weakness, say like 30 minutes. I'd take losing sp/xp over having to wait 30 minutes. Yea it might be extreme but I'm pretty sure peeps will think VERY LONG AND HARD before taking a reckless risk.


Considering that there are blue mobs who use BS abilities that kill in one hit, no, I don't think this is a good idea.

Weakness is more than enough of a penalty. We don't need anything else.
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#44 Nov 29 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Risk makes anything in life more psychologically taxing.

Fear of death due to a hefty punishment is something that makes risk even more threatening.

When you are doing something with risk of failure which would in turn inflict hefty punishment, your adrenaline gets pumping and your chemical imbalance changes and you're affected accordingly physically and mentally.

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#45 Nov 29 2010 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Risk makes anything in life more psychologically taxing.

Fear of death due to a hefty punishment is something that makes risk even more threatening.

When you are doing something with risk of failure which would in turn inflict hefty punishment, your adrenaline gets pumping and your chemical imbalance changes and you're affected accordingly physically and mentally.


No, not really. That summarizes certain instances, but it's far from a constant psychological truth. It's true for gambling addicts-- most normal people will simply feel distressed and frustrated.

The bottom line is that risk is not perceived in the same way by all, so trying to treat it as a constant is going to ruin your game design if that's what you're basing it around.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#46 Nov 29 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Risk makes anything in life more psychologically taxing.

Fear of death due to a hefty punishment is something that makes risk even more threatening.

When you are doing something with risk of failure which would in turn inflict hefty punishment, your adrenaline gets pumping and your chemical imbalance changes and you're affected accordingly physically and mentally.


No, not really. That summarizes certain instances, but it's far from a constant psychological truth. It's true for gambling addicts-- most normal people will simply feel distressed and frustrated.

The bottom line is that risk is not perceived in the same way by all, so trying to treat it as a constant is going to ruin your game design if that's what you're basing it around.


Yes, I see it is true that some people don't appreciate risk. Those people will never truly live :P

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#47 Nov 29 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
The challenge comes before the death, not after. The death penalty comes after the death, not before. If we put two and two together we start to realize that a death penalty cannot therefore add to the challenge factor, because it is applied after you've already failed.


You're right that is doesn't add to the challenge, but it does make it a lot more exciting.
#48 Nov 29 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, I see it is true that some people don't appreciate risk. Those people will never truly live :P


Actually, a tendency to engage in risky behavior is considered a mental health problem, considering these are the people that engage in substance abuse, risky ***, die in fights and car accidents, and take devastating financial risks.

People who don't "appreciate" risk are generally the ones who lead better-adjusted and happy lives.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Nov 29 2010 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Actually, a tendency to engage in risky behavior is considered a mental health problem, considering these are the people that engage in substance abuse, risky ***, die in fights and car accidents, and take devastating financial risks.

People who don't "appreciate" risk are generally the ones who lead better-adjusted and happy lives.


We're talking about a game here. Your examples are pretty extreme.
#50 Nov 29 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
BubbleGumCrisis wrote:
Quote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many people line up to think up creative ways to punish themselves...


I must have entered the gamer version of The Twilight Zone. A dimension sound, sight, mind and where wanting games to be fun and challenging makes me a *********.


The challenge comes before the death, not after. The death penalty comes after the death, not before. If we put two and two together we start to realize that a death penalty cannot therefore add to the challenge factor, because it is applied after you've already failed. If being punished is fun for you, then yes, you do start crossing over into ********* territory. If the risk is what gets you all jazzed up and moist, bind farther away from you'll be fighting so that you have to run that much longer to get back if you die. You won't, though. Nobody would. Because all this, "punishment makes the game more FUN!" is mostly a load of double talk.


I guess it follows then that walking a tightrope stretched across a 200 foot drop is no more challenging that walking one stretched 6 inches above the ground.
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#51 Nov 29 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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TacoTaru wrote:

I guess it follows then that walking a tightrope stretched across a 200 foot drop is no more challenging that walking one stretched 6 inches above the ground.


It would probably have to be a couple of feet above the ground to account for sag in the middle, but the process is the same. At no point in any MMO be it FFXI or anything else have I found myself in the middle of a fight thinking about XP loss. That's the whole point. It's not even in the back of my mind. I'm fully focused on what I need to be doing. Even if things are going sideways and things are looking grim, I'm thinking about failing and losing out on the potential rewards be it gear, currency, or whatever. I'm not thinking about the penalty for dying until after I'm dead, at which point in the case of FFXI all I was thinking was, "Ugh." Double nut-kick FTMFL. The threat of XP loss didn't add anything to the process. It didn't add any thrill or excitement. I wasn't even thinking about it.

But once the threat of xp loss turns into the reality of xp loss, that's when it sucks.
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