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Repairs (again)Follow

#1 Nov 29 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Reading some of the threads on here, I see something pop up in many threads, and I wanted to touch on it in an global area, so here goes.

Repairs- why do people still bother (and complain about it?)

Since the 25th patch, have there been a reason other than reselling your gear/weapons to repair your gear?

Have people parsed (or even eyeballed) the difference in accuracy/damage? Is it a big enough deal to decide which weapons you'll use or not use?

Personally I level pretty much all the crafts and especially those that I use gear from; I want to be able to repair my own stuff, but even then I wonder why I bother to do it? I had my archer's bow at 1 durability for about 4 hours this morning and I couldn't really tell the difference other than the red icon.

So to conclude, I ask again: Why are people annoyed (and quitting) over repairs in this new era of the game?

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As a crafter, I seem to notice a bigger impact of damaged gear than on combat classes. I was told that gatherers can also tell the difference easily (number of attempts per node, etc.) So I suppose my question is mostly to DoMs and DoWs.
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#2 Nov 29 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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and why do we need yet another new thread on this
its as if the old ones were not good enough so you had to make a new one to make it stand out....



its the same reason, because you can, thats why they complain and make a deal out of it, because they can
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#3 Nov 29 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hate the gear damage icon. In combat, I'm constantly looking at the buff bar to check for things like Stygian Spikes and whether or not the regen from Sacrifice has worn off. (And because I fought a LOT of dodos this weekend I'm always checking to see if I got out of the way of Rancid Belch in time or not.)

Having an icon there that basically says, "Something is wrong! Fix it!" bugs me.

I agree that right now there's no discernible difference between damaged gear and fully repaired gear. I kind of think that SE is well aware that the durability system is highly controversial and they're waiting until they reach a point where players are expressing a general sentiment of tolerance with it before they implement any kind of real penalty for wearing damaged gear. Right now, the icon is a nuisance and the process of repairing is horrible. I also repair all of my gear and carry mats with me to do so everywhere I go. If I had to rely on the NPC or, heaven forbid, other players to do it for me I'd be ******* too.

Because there's no apparent difference between gear at 1/xxxx and fully repaired gear, I'd definitely agree it's not worth leaving the game over. But I also think that at some point SE is going to have to put it very high on their list of priorities to address. It's just that right now there are a lot bigger fish to fry.
#4 Nov 29 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Vedis wrote:
and why do we need yet another new thread on this

I'm serious though.

There used to be a theory that SP gain was cut with damaged weapons pre-patch. I could understand people trying to keep their weapon in top shape if it meant getting something like a 50% SP cut (which was the number thrown around back then).

But now, clearly, SP gain isn't affected by durability. So I started asking around on my LS, and we all came to the conclusions that there wasn't any reason to repair anymore. One member out of 10 or so online said he noticed the difference between fully repaired and damaged, but he commented it wasn't a big one.

Which is why I ask the question. Maybe once people actually run parses and figure out the actual damage difference between a 1% and 100% durability weapon, we'll be better placed to determine how important it is to keep your gear repaired, but until then, it SEEMS to be pretty much a waste of time and money -- unless you plan to use the 100% durability to re-inject the item on the market, which is somewhat of a lost cause considering how many crafters and items are on the market as opposed to buyers.

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 2:43am by Docent42
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#5 Nov 29 2010 at 2:15 AM Rating: Default
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Aurelius wrote:
If I had to rely on the NPC or, heaven forbid, other players to do it for me I'd be ******* too.


Wow, you just hate everything you can't solo don't you?

Repairs from other players for cheaper prices are an excellent idea, just right now it is implemented very poorly and the whole process is drawn out and excessive. I'd much rather click on the item in the persons inventory and have it repair from that one action if im of the appropriate rank and skill level, but keep the chance of failing. The getting down on one knee, selecting mats and so on is a pain in the ****.
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#6 Nov 29 2010 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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Wow. I had no idea people didn't see a difference. I've only leveled CON extensively and when i hit heavy gear damage on my staff it's horrible. If not accuracy, I know for a fact my damage gets cut in at least half.
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#7 Nov 29 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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If you cant tell your doing less damage and have very bad Acc when your weapon is damaged your not watching the game too close because all gear gives half effects when red and yes that means you take double damage if all your gear is red. I havent posted much on here since the game came out cause ive been too busy playing it but the truth is the repair system is garbage and needs revision.Before you guys flame me i do love this game.
#8 Nov 29 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Darkm0d wrote:
Wow. I had no idea people didn't see a difference. I've only leveled CON extensively and when i hit heavy gear damage on my staff it's horrible. If not accuracy, I know for a fact my damage gets cut in at least half.

Good to know, can we have numbers to back that claim, too? Interestingly, the LSmate who mentioned a difference was playing THM at the time. Perhaps DoM are affected more heavily? Perhaps you're seeing the results of partial resists? That could explain cutting damage by half of spells.

I'll go out and ruin my brass knuckles and try on a my pugilist later tonight, but when I leveled archer 1>15 in a sprint this weekend, I couldn't see or feel any difference. I'll try to make a nice report once I come to some sort of conclusion.

Pre-analysis If spell accuracy (Are partial resists due to accuracy? I think so) is what drops when weapon is damaged, and melee attacks mimic it with melee accuracy, then the ability feint from lancer might actually make durability a moot point for all melee jobs.
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#9 Nov 29 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Weapon damage and accuracy is clearly ~halved (if not more) at full wear. It is blatantly obvious. Unless they have fixed armor in the latest patch, it doesn't seem to make much difference though. I tested an entire set of fully worn Vs. fully repaired armor pre-patch (at optimal rank) and there was no appreciable difference in damage sustained.
#10 Nov 29 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Furia wrote:
Weapon damage and accuracy is clearly ~halved (if not more) at full wear.

I don't buy the damage halved; I did a 506 damage weaponskill with a bow with 1 durability. There is probably (I hope) an impact on damage, but saying it's halved is most likely an exaggeration.

Accuracy is a strange one. Even if it's halved, Feint is such a great skill that having a lower accuracy is almost a good thing.

As I said before, I'll give my knuckles a good beating then see how they perform with and without repairs against green con mobs, and I'll report back here.
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#11 Nov 29 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Docent42 wrote:
Furia wrote:
Weapon damage and accuracy is clearly ~halved (if not more) at full wear.

I don't buy the damage halved; I did a 506 damage weaponskill with a bow with 1 durability. There is probably (I hope) an impact on damage, but saying it's halved is most likely an exaggeration.

Accuracy is a strange one. Even if it's halved, Feint is such a great skill that having a lower accuracy is almost a good thing.

As I said before, I'll give my knuckles a good beating then see how they perform with and without repairs against green con mobs, and I'll report back here.


Yes you're right, forgot to include only normal attack damage is halved. Skills damage does not seem to be effected much, if any at all.
#12 Nov 29 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Even if it is indeed halved, remember that only the damage rating on your weapon is halved. You still have the full benefits of the base attack and Str you already have. Therefore, your actual damage output is not halved.
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#13 Nov 29 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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To add, a bit OT:

Very unscientifically my Pug is currently wearing Brass Knuckles, they are at about 85% wear. I also have a pair of Tortoiseshell Hora that are higher level and worn to about 20%.

The Brass Knuckles are unsurprisingly A LOT better in every respect, ACC, DMG, whatever.

Yet in the stats screen ACC, etc, the Tortoiseshell are like one or two points WORSE than the Knuckles and the Tortoiseshell's stats are BETTER on the Gear screen. Point being, the numbers don't reflect the actual stats.

SE needs to factor in the actual stats of the weapons in real time or something to show us that higher gear isn't the way to go. I hate dealing with intangible stuff.

If people saw big red numbers next to their shiny new gear that's 15 levels too high then I'm sure you'd see a lot less of it.
#14 Nov 29 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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crenshawsmith wrote:
If you cant tell your doing less damage and have very bad Acc when your weapon is damaged your not watching the game too close because all gear gives half effects when red and yes that means you take double damage if all your gear is red. I havent posted much on here since the game came out cause ive been too busy playing it but the truth is the repair system is garbage and needs revision.Before you guys flame me i do love this game.


I've tested with r33 LNC, r32 Spear on Mun Tuy Squirrel in the cellar (~r25), with 1 durability spear and 100% durability spear, on the exact squirrel (I disengage before I kill it), the damage for normal attack doesn't even change one bit. Unless there's a damage cap, I don't buy that there's damage penalty for gear damage. Crafting wise, I've had even greater success rate with red gear damage tool than fully repaired. Out of ~60 synths I did when my Hammer got 1 durability, none fail. The first two synths I did when I got my hammer repaired failed with lollightningunstable.
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#15 Nov 29 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
crenshawsmith wrote:
If you cant tell your doing less damage and have very bad Acc when your weapon is damaged your not watching the game too close because all gear gives half effects when red and yes that means you take double damage if all your gear is red. I havent posted much on here since the game came out cause ive been too busy playing it but the truth is the repair system is garbage and needs revision.Before you guys flame me i do love this game.


I've tested with r33 LNC, r32 Spear on Mun Tuy Squirrel in the cellar (~r25), with 1 durability spear and 100% durability spear, on the exact squirrel (I disengage before I kill it), the damage for normal attack doesn't even change one bit. Unless there's a damage cap, I don't buy that there's damage penalty for gear damage. Crafting wise, I've had even greater success rate with red gear damage tool than fully repaired. Out of ~60 synths I did when my Hammer got 1 durability, none fail. The first two synths I did when I got my hammer repaired failed with lollightningunstable.


there is a fail rate increase on 1 durability tools for crafting

ive often sat there for hours doing the same synth over and over, and i never fail it
then the moment i hit 1, i start getting these odd fails, so i check, and sure enough there is is, 1/XXXXXX durability

i repair, go back to work, and all is well after that
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#16 Nov 30 2010 at 3:22 AM Rating: Good
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I hope this topic is brought up soon in "ask the developers"...

It "seems" like my damage goes down when my weapon is damaged and my blocking/damage-taken gets worse when my shield is damaged, but I can't tell for sure. Also wondering if damage to jewelry actually affects anything at all.
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#17 Nov 30 2010 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Damage and Accuracy is significantly reduced for weapons and success rate is reduced for tools. Whoever said dmg/acc is reduced by half is probably not far off the mark. My spear goes from 100+ dmg/hit to 50-60 and I whiff like crazy when its 1/xxxxxx.

When I'm soloing mobs quickly this can happen every 2 hours! And I'm currently 4 levels over my current spear. This is why durability loss needs to be fixed. It just makes no sense that I need to go find a repair that frequently.
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#18 Nov 30 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:

Yet in the stats screen ACC, etc, the Tortoiseshell are like one or two points WORSE than the Knuckles and the Tortoiseshell's stats are BETTER on the Gear screen. Point being, the numbers don't reflect the actual stats.

Uhh, yes they do. You don't get all the stats from your Tortoiseshell Hora because you don't meet the rank requirement. What you do get from it is correctly displayed in the character stats sheet. Someone tested this in open beta and I believe the conclusion was that, while there are slight variations between pieces of gear, the first rank below optimal cuts stats by ~16% and every rank after that by another ~4% until a minimum of 1 is reached.

As for weapon damage having an effect on performance, I haven't really been paying much attention to it lately. In beta, though, I observed a ~40% drop in damage and eyeballed a worse hit rate when my weapon was in the red.
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#19 Nov 30 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:

Uhh, yes they do. You don't get all the stats from your Tortoiseshell Hora because you don't meet the rank requirement. What you do get from it is correctly displayed in the character stats sheet. Someone tested this in open beta and I believe the conclusion was that, while there are slight variations between pieces of gear, the first rank below optimal cuts stats by ~16% and every rank after that by another ~4% until a minimum of 1 is reached.

As for weapon damage having an effect on performance, I haven't really been paying much attention to it lately. In beta, though, I observed a ~40% drop in damage and eyeballed a worse hit rate when my weapon was in the red.



I understand that. Re-read what I posted.

How does -1 ACC or -2 DMG in my character stats sheet amount to a say 40% reduction in effectiveness, it doesn't. That's why I suggested (probably not clear enough) that both an item's (green and red stats +) level range and repair status need to accurately be reflected when equipping items. These 'hidden' 16%'s and 40%'s need to be represented.

Again, if an item say is level 30 and I'm level 20 and if the discrepancy is what everyone believes it to be (negative and large) then the stats for the higher level item should never fully be green especially compared to an optimal level item. This is one of the reasons why people, I think, are still equipping higher level items for their level.

The problem is, the system is set up so that the item doesn't change, but your stats do, through a subtle lowering of actual character stats BUT also through these hidden percentage modifiers.

I'm suggesting to change the system so that they are reflected on the item.

OR

Show on the character's stats screen what stats you should have compared to the sub-optimal stats of items in disrepair or level discrepancy.

If SE wants this to work we shouldn't have to be in the dark about it.
#20 Nov 30 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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After reading this post I decided to go out and test things myself. Grabbed a pen and paper, hit The Black Shroud and started grinding green con mobs so I could record the data without getting killed. This is what I came up with after several hours of fighting and taking notes after each fight. These numbers are based on averages I recorded over several hundred fights as I gained almost a whole level and took my weapon from 100% to 1% (leaving it at 1% until I had enough data) and back after testing several times. All numbers are rounded to the nearest whole number.

Weapon at 100% (Green or no icon)
Average number of attacks to kill target- 10
Average number of attacks missed per fight- 1
Average damage per hit- 206

Weapon at 50% (Yellow icon)
Average number of attacks to kill target- 12
Average number of attacks missed per fight- 2
Average damage per hit- 195

Weapon at 1% (Red icon or 1/XXX)
Average number of attacks to kill target- 16
Average number of attacks missed per fight- 4
Average damage per fight- 156

These numbers are based on auto attacks only. If you want information on wear on weapons skills/spells you'll have to test it yourself. I'd like to reiterate that is is based on a few hours of fighting and recording everything. Not just some random numbers I decided was right because I do or do not want repairing weapons to be important.

According to these numbers at 1% you weapon damage as a whole drops to 75.7% of its normal damage. Your accuracy is also effected by an added 15% for a totally of 25%(Keep in mind that I play archer which has high acc weapons AND I was using acc rings at the time so classes with a lower acc may suffer more overall in this aspect). Its up to you to decide if that enough for you to repair it or if your ok with that red icon being on your screen 24/7.

So its NOT 50% damage/acc at 1/XXX. Its closer to or pretty much 75%. While this may not seem like allot to some I have to say I could tell a major difference from 100% to 1%. Each fight was longer, I took more damage and suffered from longer downtime which would have slowed me dramatically if I was SP grinding.



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#21 Nov 30 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you for your post, WilliamStar. I didn't get the chance to run the test myself yesterday night.

From your numbers yellow weapon really don't seem to be worth repairing to me. The damage difference appears to be only 5%, with a small accuracy hit.

Red durability penalty is bigger than I anticipated, and lower than most people claimed. That's good to know. I suppose it depends if you're grinding SP (you'd want 100% weapons then) or just grinding shards and materials (in which case red slows you down by 60% according to your numbers)

Also will have to run more tests comparing WS damage to confirm if the durability hit still applies. If it doesn't some abilities like PUG's Pummel (more TP gain = less Durability impact), GLA's Red Lotus (100% accuracy) and LNC's Invigorate, Comrade in arms (more TP gain = less Durability impact) and Feint (Misses turn into big damage with 100% accuracy) would come ahead of the others for low-durability grinding.
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#22 Nov 30 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the intention has always been that yellow repair icon is acceptable and a warning and red repair icon needs attention immediately.

Good to have this confirmed :)
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