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MMORPG revolution. Why FFXIV isn't following?Follow

#52ironmonk25, Posted: Dec 01 2010 at 9:57 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) sorry but just because it will be released for ps3 in march does not mean it will increase the player base by 500k-1m. ya it will get a few players, but after all the bad press, people arent going to be rushing out to pay so much money for it. i know if i could do it again there is no way i would pay 60 dollars for this thing, and then they expect me to pay a monthly fee on top of that? **** no.
#53 Dec 01 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
Quote:

It's a win/win for the industry. A more diverse selection of games just means that more people will enjoy gaming with mmo's. If FFXIV is not for you, go find a game that is, rather than asking them to change it to your liking.


This is true but some people like certain aspects of certain games and don't like other aspects of said games so they want their ideal game and hence we get complaints left and right. In my case, for example, I absolutely dislike RPGs, be it western or eastern developed, but I love Final Fantasy and have played all of them since I got introduced to the franchise with FFX. I like them because they are different each time but the lore is the same, and I expected more of the same from FFXIV. FFXIV's biggest problem isn't that its a bad game. period. Its that it was released too early - I think this game is going to become great fairly quickly here.



I would agree with this assessment. I just started playing yesterday and no it's not perfect and while most mmos aren't at release from what I understand it was unfinished at launch... that sucks and all but a lot of the complaints I'm seeing are about the lack of content and crafting and things that are actually parts of the game rather than issues... as stated above if those things keep you from enjoying the game try a different one. I loved FFXI back in the day because it was hard... getting to the lvl cap was an accomplishment as opposed to just something to rush through in a week's time to get to the end game.

I've seen a few people complain that it doesn't cater as much to the casual market... I honestly didn't expect it to. Anyone who's played the console FF games knows that at their core the games are all the same. I expected FFXIV to follow a similar course in that while it has changed... it seems very much like FFXI.

I'm sure I could be wrong on a lot of this but that's my initial impression.
#54 Dec 01 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
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Some of you seem to misunderstood my point.

What i am pointing out is that SE is running backward on their developments.

This have nothing to do with WoW at all, i am not saying SE should make this game easy. But there is a differences between "easy" and "grinding".

The guidleve is obvious a grind work. When you can just have 1 daily guildleve SE decide to split it to 8. You can have an interest and complex guildleve where players can either do or not do base on what they feel. Instead They persist and giving players "easy" tasks and multiply the effort require.

In the very end, the results are still the same. Assume these 8 guildleve will reward a total of 50% of your level. Wouldn't doing 1 big guildleve rewarding 50% is equally the same? Instead you are going to have much of your time being wasted from "talking" "running" and "repeating" the same things.

An example from FFXI, FFXI become very efficient when they add level-sync. In the enter, we are all still partying for exp. But it reduce the time require to "seek" similar level range to group. Does it make the game easier? No. The gameplay remain intact as before. Nothing have changed (beside some peple use sync as a mean of power leveling).

It isn't even efficient when you have wait for anima. Why can't they just let anima to enable a specific effect so you can get to anywhere you wish within the effect time ? instead of spending it like coins and wait real-life timer to reset?

Instead of walking or anima from one city to another, couldn't players achieve a quest like similar to whitegate and the 3 nations and pay a sum for teleport?

What we are seeing here is that SE is moon walking backwards, not forwards. Other MMORPG now consisder "time-efficient" Even WoW does by adding flying mounts (it is inefficient for players to walk side ways to reach places you been to).

SE start making game time-efficient. FFXIV can NOT be a casual game if players need to repeat the same routine to achieve a result that can be done with a shortcut.
#55 Dec 01 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Fei, the Japanese lifestyle in general frowns upon such "laziness" and "lack of effort." Once you understand that, it is quite obvious that any Japanese game will either seem less time-efficient than its counterparts in the American market (which actually means they're putting more work into leveling content as opposed to just working on endgame like some companies) or not utilize levels at all, and instead focus upon skill.
Let's use LOTRO and WoW's "leveling mobs" as an example compared to FFXI's, since we have yet to see enough of FFXIV's leveling mobs aside from crabs, marmots, and other over-sized critters. In LOTRO and WoW, 90% of the mobs only have 1 ability or just auto attack. That means they put no work whatsoever into the balancing process of pve leveling. In LOTRO, this is made up for by how one feels important in quests, but in WoW, it is obvious that they put almost no effort whatsoever into the vast majority of the leveling content.
Now, let's look at FFXI, the game which FFXIV will end up being modeled after, simply due to how bad FFXIV is doing at the moment. Aside from level 1 enemies, every monster and combat NPC has a minimum of 3 abilities. Some have up to 20, and one has a HUNDRED or more if you count all his possible forms individually. Each also has an animation for said abilities unique to that ability. They literally put a minimum of 1000% more time into every single monster than comparable American games. Sadly, FFXIV only seems to have 3 abilities per mob at most, not counting auto-attack, with somewhat overused animations. Then again, endgame doesn't even exist in this game yet. I'm sure Sky-King Bahamut will have at least 20 moves when and if we face off with him in FFXIV.


TL;DR version for those who have ADD:

FFXI and FFXIV are about the journey, not the destination. The longer the journey goes, the more fun they are.
Most western games are about the destination, be it endgame, some cute dress, saving the princess, or seeing the ending of a story. You'll never see "I'm sorry, Mario, but the Princess is in another castle." in an American game.


#56 Dec 01 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Uryuu wrote:
TL;DR version for those who have ADD:

FFXI and FFXIV are about the journey, not the destination. The longer the journey goes, the more fun they are.
Most western games are about the destination, be it endgame, some cute dress, saving the princess, or seeing the ending of a story. You'll never see "I'm sorry, Mario, but the Princess is in another castle." in an American game.


This is totally true. If you want to "beat the game", play a western game. If you want to "play the game", play an eastern one.
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#57 Dec 01 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Uryuu wrote:
TL;DR version for those who have ADD:

FFXI and FFXIV are about the journey, not the destination. The longer the journey goes, the more fun they are.
Most western games are about the destination, be it endgame, some cute dress, saving the princess, or seeing the ending of a story. You'll never see "I'm sorry, Mario, but the Princess is in another castle." in an American game.


This is totally true. If you want to "beat the game", play a western game. If you want to "play the game", play an eastern one.

I think too simplistic of an approach. Most sandbox games are western in design (maybe not American but certainly not eastern). Altho I do agree with RPG's that there is more "grind" in JRPGs than western ones.

Edit: I don't want to sound like I'm harping on JRPGs I like certain things about them and dislike certain things about them, just like western ones. Each has their strengths and flaws :)

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:00pm by OMGItsABear
#58 Dec 01 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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OMGItsABear wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Uryuu wrote:
TL;DR version for those who have ADD:

FFXI and FFXIV are about the journey, not the destination. The longer the journey goes, the more fun they are.
Most western games are about the destination, be it endgame, some cute dress, saving the princess, or seeing the ending of a story. You'll never see "I'm sorry, Mario, but the Princess is in another castle." in an American game.


This is totally true. If you want to "beat the game", play a western game. If you want to "play the game", play an eastern one.

I think too simplistic of an approach. Most sandbox games are western in design (maybe not American but certainly not eastern). Altho I do agree with RPG's that there is more "grind" in JRPGs than western ones.


Yeah, but there's a difference between a sandbox game (which are mostly experimentation based, another trait that JRPGs lack) and a game that is merely a longer trip to the destination.

Western RPGs focus on getting you to the destination swiftly.
Eastern RPGs focus on the trip, and you will eventually get to the destination.
Sandbox RPGs focus on experimenting and tend to de-emphasize the destination (if there is one at all).

Different strokes for different folks.
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#59 Dec 01 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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OMGItsABear wrote:
Edit: I don't want to sound like I'm harping on JRPGs I like certain things about them and dislike certain things about them, just like western ones. Each has their strengths and flaws :)


Yeah, I agree. My least favorite part about JRPGs that every single one of them seems to have in common is that they tend to start out rapidly and gradually slow down. Somewhere in the 60-80% completion area is where most of them have a huge lull where the game starts to feel like you're only doing **** just to do **** and that you aren't really making any progress, and then the end of it picks up again.
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#60 Dec 01 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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JRPG's also tend to have no real satisfying ending to the storyline, although I have witnessed a few. Rather than revolution, I would argue that evolution is not happening for FFXIV. For all of those screaming that it is not like wow, I can say that FFXIV is the most cookie cutter, unimaginative, RPG game that I have played in recent years, and time will not help it evolve. DRT is a useful short-way of saying Dead Right There.
#61 Dec 01 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Parsalyn wrote:
DRT is a useful short-way of saying Dead Right There.


DRT?
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#62 Dec 01 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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DOA maybe is better?

Dead On Arrival.
#63 Dec 02 2010 at 12:54 AM Rating: Good
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Parsalyn wrote:
JRPG's also tend to have no real satisfying ending to the storyline, although I have witnessed a few. Rather than revolution, I would argue that evolution is not happening for FFXIV. For all of those screaming that it is not like wow, I can say that FFXIV is the most cookie cutter, unimaginative, RPG game that I have played in recent years, and time will not help it evolve. DRT is a useful short-way of saying Dead Right There.


I don't know, I'd say the endings to JRPGS are better than the American single-player counterparts.
Dragon Age: "To Be continued..."
Mass Effect 1 : See above
Fable 1, 2: Yep, same thing there.
Diablo 1, 2: Wow, beginning to see a real pattern here...
Warcraft, Starcraft (Strategy) series of games: Yep, they just keep going, and going, and going...

I believe that about covers the most well-known American-made RPGs.

Now, let's take a look at the endings to Japanese single player RPGs.
Final Fantasy 1-10, 12-13: Varying endings, some much more bittersweet than others.
Dragon Warrior/Quest series: Many different endings, as well. Good guys win, as always.
Lufia series: Pretty much same ending and back story to all the games. Heroes save the world, make babies, those babies make more babies, eventually heroes are born, usually with the same names. Heroes save world, repeat until series ends.

So, generally JRPGS wrap up the storyline for a game in well...1 game. American RPGS seem to drag out the story simply to keep you buying the next one. I remember finishing Diablo 1 around a decade ago. I was like, "finally that evil mutha is dead...oh, hey...what are you doing with that thing...don't put it there...OHMYGODYOURETARDYOUREDIABLONOW." I refused to buy the 2nd game, or even ever play it, because of that.

#64 Dec 02 2010 at 4:12 AM Rating: Default
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Uryuu wrote:
Parsalyn wrote:
JRPG's also tend to have no real satisfying ending to the storyline, although I have witnessed a few. Rather than revolution, I would argue that evolution is not happening for FFXIV. For all of those screaming that it is not like wow, I can say that FFXIV is the most cookie cutter, unimaginative, RPG game that I have played in recent years, and time will not help it evolve. DRT is a useful short-way of saying Dead Right There.


I don't know, I'd say the endings to JRPGS are better than the American single-player counterparts.
Dragon Age: "To Be continued..."
Mass Effect 1 : See above
Fable 1, 2: Yep, same thing there.
Diablo 1, 2: Wow, beginning to see a real pattern here...
Warcraft, Starcraft (Strategy) series of games: Yep, they just keep going, and going, and going...

I believe that about covers the most well-known American-made RPGs.

Now, let's take a look at the endings to Japanese single player RPGs.
Final Fantasy 1-10, 12-13: Varying endings, some much more bittersweet than others.
Dragon Warrior/Quest series: Many different endings, as well. Good guys win, as always.
Lufia series: Pretty much same ending and back story to all the games. Heroes save the world, make babies, those babies make more babies, eventually heroes are born, usually with the same names. Heroes save world, repeat until series ends.

So, generally JRPGS wrap up the storyline for a game in well...1 game. American RPGS seem to drag out the story simply to keep you buying the next one. I remember finishing Diablo 1 around a decade ago. I was like, "finally that evil mutha is dead...oh, hey...what are you doing with that thing...don't put it there...OHMYGODYOURETARDYOUREDIABLONOW." I refused to buy the 2nd game, or even ever play it, because of that.



... Wow! It all went right by huh ?
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#65 Dec 02 2010 at 4:43 AM Rating: Default
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Uryuu wrote:
Now, let's take a look at the endings to Japanese single player RPGs.
Final Fantasy 1-10, 12-13: Varying endings, some much more bittersweet than others.
Dragon Warrior/Quest series: Many different endings, as well. Good guys win, as always.
Lufia series: Pretty much same ending and back story to all the games. Heroes save the world, make babies, those babies make more babies, eventually heroes are born, usually with the same names. Heroes save world, repeat until series ends.


Final Fantasy = Hero with mis-aligned personality teams up with a rag-tag bunch and stops the Empire/Religious cult/Ancient Evil from destroying the world. At the end, you fight a "FINAL BOSSU" that came out of left-field for no reason; queue credit rolling.

Dragon Quest = Silent Hero embarks on quest to stop Ancient Evil. He wins.

Lufia = Same story told over and over without any alteration.

So.... those are your examples of satisifying endings? The exact same formula used for the past two and a half decades with zero alteration? That's a pretty weak argument. If I think of a JRPG with a well fleshed out story, journey, and overall presentation I'll think of a Tales game, not Final Fantasy and *certainly* not Dragon Quest.

Don't get me wrong; Final Fantasy games are mostly pretty **** good but stellar story-telling they aren't. Squaresoft/Square/Square-Enix games have always been about the whole package, not the storyline. Even their best games haven't deviated from the tried and true Japanese setting.
#66 Dec 02 2010 at 4:51 AM Rating: Good
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You know, those 3 combined not only describe JRPGS, but they describe every single RPG ever made, as well as many adventure, strategy, and even card games, aside from Sandboxes, due to the inherent nature thereof.
Apparently, storytelling is pretty limited when it comes to compelling reasons to play a game, from what you're saying.
I was kind of pointing out the fact that the stories are wrapped up in 1 game, instead of a tiny bit of story with tons of killing things for no good reason, followed by paying another 50-150 dollars to play through the rest of the story.

Oh, and if you haven't noticed, all the American RPGS I mentioned use the same exact "reasons" as the JRPGS series listed. They just don't finish the story.

And yeah, I love the Tales of- series, Star Ocean's great, as well.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 4:58am by Uryuu
#67 Dec 02 2010 at 5:27 AM Rating: Default
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Uryuu wrote:
You know, those 3 combined not only describe JRPGS, but they describe every single RPG ever made, as well as many adventure, strategy, and even card games, aside from Sandboxes, due to the inherent nature thereof.
Apparently, storytelling is pretty limited when it comes to compelling reasons to play a game, from what you're saying.
I was kind of pointing out the fact that the stories are wrapped up in 1 game, instead of a tiny bit of story with tons of killing things for no good reason, followed by paying another 50-150 dollars to play through the rest of the story.

Oh, and if you haven't noticed, all the American RPGS I mentioned use the same exact "reasons" as the JRPGS series listed. They just don't finish the story.

And yeah, I love the Tales of- series, Star Ocean's great, as well.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 4:58am by Uryuu


There is a great difference in storytelling between JRPG and WRPG, in a JRPG the story's have been done to death(Not bad tho some company's can reinvent the storyline and actually go the extramile) but to say for example that ME 1 was not a complete game, is just silly, the story in the first game came full circle by the end, then they came with part 2 wich again was a full game, and hopefully they will do the same with part 3, also JRPG are more or less the same, they just cramp their storyline at one point and not always but most of the time pull it off, i mean if you play any FF game, it's the same always, you start good, the story is quick paced then 6hr's into the game it all slow's down's and you have to go town after town after some guy, then a bit more of story, then again gotta go to X cave, or Y forest, kill this boss here, oh and always gotta help some random people in need and that takes 5 hours of sidetracking just to get back into the main quest again, and then by the end of the game, the guy that was supposedly the bad guy all game along is some pawn or something lol(See FFIV)
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#68 Dec 02 2010 at 5:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I've never played or thought about playing WOW in my life. But after months of forums telling me casual it is. How it's target market is for everyone, and everyone's PC. How good their UI is, how intuitive it is to learn it.

I guess if FFXIV ever dies, WOW is a must try for me.
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#69 Dec 02 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bozmo wrote:
I've never played or thought about playing WOW in my life. But after months of forums telling me casual it is. How it's target market is for everyone, and everyone's PC. How good their UI is, how intuitive it is to learn it.

I guess if FFXIV ever dies, WOW is a must try for me.


Honestly, for all the people out there who insist WoW is awesome and for all the people out there who insist WoW is terrible, ignore them.

Download the free trial and give the game a whirl and decide for yourself if you like it or hate it. It's a different game. No one but you can decide whether you like a game.

I got bored of it/sick of it and quit when Cataclysm was announced but that doesn't mean I didn't have fun with it for a while. Either you'll find a game you like or you'll have made up your decision to dislike it based on personal experience rather than anecdotal reference.

The same goes for any game, really. I will read reviews and listen to accolades and gripes, but ultimately the only person who can tell me if I like a game or not is me.
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#70 Dec 02 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The same goes for any game, really. I will read reviews and listen to accolades and gripes, but ultimately the only person who can tell me if I like a game or not is me.


Screenshot
#71 Dec 02 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Uryuu wrote:
TL;DR version for those who have ADD:

FFXI and FFXIV are about the journey, not the destination. The longer the journey goes, the more fun they are.
Most western games are about the destination, be it endgame, some cute dress, saving the princess, or seeing the ending of a story. You'll never see "I'm sorry, Mario, but the Princess is in another castle." in an American game.


This is totally true. If you want to "beat the game", play a western game. If you want to "play the game", play an eastern one.


Awesome observations.

I remember, and still to this day, looking at the number of disks a game would span and say, "I hope this never ends!"

I was playing FFVII and thinking, "WOW! All of that happened in disk 1!?"

The only game I can remember ever wanting to 'beat' was Street Fighter 2.

With RPGs I want to be immersed in the world forever. And I think we're seeing a reversal of that trend; being an Eastern only thing. With Downloadable Content for games like Dragon Age, there is no ending, just more quests, character development, etc... It is ironically the 'American Way' of capitalism (making money off of DLC), that I think has brought about that shift.

Now philosophically, I guess you could argue the means are different; that the East wants you to keep playing for the sake of playing, but in the end both are completely acceptable and I don't care about it one way or the other. I just like playing deep, involving games.
#72 Dec 02 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Default
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Uryuu wrote:
Now, let's take a look at the endings to Japanese single player RPGs.
Final Fantasy 1-10, 12-13: Varying endings, some much more bittersweet than others.
Dragon Warrior/Quest series: Many different endings, as well. Good guys win, as always.
Lufia series: Pretty much same ending and back story to all the games. Heroes save the world, make babies, those babies make more babies, eventually heroes are born, usually with the same names. Heroes save world, repeat until series ends.


Final Fantasy = Hero with mis-aligned personality teams up with a rag-tag bunch and stops the Empire/Religious cult/Ancient Evil from destroying the world. At the end, you fight a "FINAL BOSSU" that came out of left-field for no reason; queue credit rolling.

Dragon Quest = Silent Hero embarks on quest to stop Ancient Evil. He wins.

Lufia = Same story told over and over without any alteration.

So.... those are your examples of satisifying endings? The exact same formula used for the past two and a half decades with zero alteration? That's a pretty weak argument. If I think of a JRPG with a well fleshed out story, journey, and overall presentation I'll think of a Tales game, not Final Fantasy and *certainly* not Dragon Quest.

Don't get me wrong; Final Fantasy games are mostly pretty **** good but stellar story-telling they aren't. Squaresoft/Square/Square-Enix games have always been about the whole package, not the storyline. Even their best games haven't deviated from the tried and true Japanese setting.


iagree most jrpgs have same story, if you wanted to mention a great rpg that has they best story in a video game that is different, you should have mentioned xenogears


Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 2:49pm by ironmonk25
#73 Dec 02 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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@OP: You say you want a revolution. Well, you know. We all want to change the world of warcraft.
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#74 Dec 02 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
@OP: You say you want a revolution. Well, you know. We all want to change the world of warcraft.


I just want some WAR! In my warcraft <.<
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