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New SP systemFollow

#1 Nov 30 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Hi everyone, this thread ain't about me falming abou the new SP system. In fact i love the new system, gives me constant points instead of the random thing it was before the update. As many of you probably have guessed, i play DoM and i wanted to know what is the deal with everyone complaining about the new system because they don't rank up as quick as they want. Thing is this is a MMORPG, IMO you are not supposed to hit the level cap for anything 3 month after the game release. Doesn't anyone think it's normal that it takes a long time past a certain rank? i haven't got 20 yet on Conjurer and i'm not angry at SE because i don't level up quick, instead i like it. Seems to me it would be way more rewarding when i get 50 if i spent like 6 month doing so instead of 2 month. If i want to level quick, i'll go play WoW, takes a week or 2 to get 80. So, discuss and let me know what you think.

Mori Laflamme
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Dherric
75 THF 75 BRD (retired) - Siren
#2 Nov 30 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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wait till your 31+ and its like 40k-100k TNR and all you get is 6k-10k/hour then you will understand

the new system seems like it was ment more for the 11-30 group
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#3 Nov 30 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Dherric wrote:
Seems to me it would be way more rewarding when i get 50 if i spent like 6 month doing so instead of 2 month.




Personally I think it should take a year like EQ classic..but that's just me... a ********* :)...
#4 Nov 30 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure people will find a way to get high level SP group or solo even when they are 30+ ... it's all just new and people are still figuring it out. People shouldn't be angry when they don't get the maximum 500 for each kill, that should still happen, but be rare.
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#5 Nov 30 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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The leveling rate is fine, my problem is that fighting easy blue mobs as the most efficient way of leveling is extremely mundane.

There are many reasons why I don't like it:

- No need for a tank
- No need for a healer
- No need for strategy
- No need for tactics
- No need for more than your standard attack and one TP move
- Heaps of boring running from mob to mob very frequently

The speed is fine. Before the speed was too quick, now its been balanced out for everyone. The problem is the most efficient way of leveling.
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#6 Nov 30 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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IXICascadeTaiga wrote:
wait till your 31+ and its like 40k-100k TNR and all you get is 6k-10k/hour then you will understand
Seriously.

At ARC45 im like 40k tnr, started at 89k tnr. It just takes forever. Lower level players love this patch but everyone i know r35+ agrees that it basically punished players who were above a certain rank. They should either fix the SP system or nerf crafting SP into the ground like they did with DoW/DoM.

The funny thing is, reducing SP gain isnt going to stop players who are deadset on reaching the rank cap for their DoW/M classes. They're not going to stop SPing, theyre going the find the new best way to do it - and if that's how they enjoy the game, if that's why they bought the game, why shouldn't they?

tylerbee wrote:
The leveling rate is fine, my problem is that fighting easy blue mobs as the most efficient way of leveling is extremely mundane... The speed is fine. Before the speed was too quick, now its been balanced out for everyone. The problem is the most efficient way of leveling.
I agree that maximum efficiency should be achieved in a group and never solo. If soloing is more efficient than grouping, why group? SP gain needs to be increased for groups so that team play vs difficult targets becomes more appealing than solo grinding blues and greens. Players should be encouraged to constantly seek out tougher challenges, not languish in an uninteresting comfort zone because its the best option.

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 9:11pm by Timorith
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#7 Nov 30 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, I am implying that we should be rewarded more for fighting tougher mobs in parties. Right now the time it takes to kill anything over green isn't worth it for a party. They'd need to at least triple the SP from fighting oranges and reds to make the current system interesting and worthwhile.
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#8 Nov 30 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Default
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Sp is constant yes,I don't mind that part. But as your starting to see now. Everyone or most is staying clear of mobs,like efts. High hp mobs are useless now so much faster, easier to stay with mobs such as coblyns. In parties higher lvl it would seem that sp bonus is broken for most part. But still is some ways to lvl up. No more raptors at 35 esh. They got rid of system, a lot of people were upset about & made a new one but. Sticking lvl 40 diremite's in way of lvl 30 leves don't seem to help out much either. So you need a party now to do leves,if you want to get some of them done. While they are trying to fix the system, they need to find a balance that works around the boards. Given certain mobs more sp the others as set sp. For example, efts at 25=500sp kill by 30=100 sp kill. while same lvl coblyns 25 might give 200sp kill 30=50 sp kill. This will make soloing okay. But when fighting higher health mobs that take longer that you want a party for more in general. Will still provide good amounts of sp for partying. I know there might be dif. facts when adding dif. lvls in. But as base sp would work for them more with what they are trying to do.

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 4:44pm by Xrayvion

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 4:45pm by Xrayvion

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 5:07pm by Xrayvion

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 5:08pm by Xrayvion

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 5:09pm by Xrayvion
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#9Deival, Posted: Nov 30 2010 at 3:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) already almost 50+ ppl on my ls quit coz of this fails
#10 Nov 30 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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Devival wrote:
already almost 50+ ppl on my ls quit coz of this fails


Keep fails SE till we all Find new MMORPG game

coughTROLLcough

I like the new system a lot.
Maybe that's because I didn't even play pre-Nov 8)

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 2:30am by GoldenArrow
#11 Nov 30 2010 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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I like the new system, as a 24Con/18Thm who plays solo most of the time. I think all they need to do is adjust the jobs for partying and add in exp/sp bonuses for killing even match or higher mobs within a certain time limit, like in ffxi.
#12 Nov 30 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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This current system for Sp has killed it for me. I keep seeing post 31 or solo verus party. It is honestly more simple that that. If I do something hard it should be reward as such. If I do something easy it should be rewarded as such. The guild leve system is all messed up because of the forced class change system with guild marks. I want to work on one class that is why the fatigue system is suppose to exsist. However with the current limit is horrible. Is leveling possible post 20 yes... is it fun NO. That is the main issue. If I could get my 8 "dailies" in 36 hours and grind through them I would deal but as current its just too boring.

The game lacks major elements most games have currently . It also lacks things FFXI has. I think thats where the real confusion comes from. I understand its new but the company failed to learn from their own success and failers.
#13 Nov 30 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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Xrayvion wrote:
Sticking lvl 40 diremite's in way of lvl 30 leves don't seem to help out much either. So you need a party now to do leves,if you want to get some of them done.


The diremite in Nanawa Mines are not r40. The r40 are Dwarf Diremite at Broken Water which is r40 leves site, which some of them are not even r40, as they appeared yellow to my r38 Goldsmith. I've done quite a few leves at Broken Water post-patch with a r37 GLA friend, still manageable even with tons of Diremite around. What annoying is that the Diremite pathing is messed up, they followed us for a long long distance and finally settled at the new spot instead of returning to its original spot. Only Nanawa Mines and Broken Water has them btw, Treespeak, Iron Lake, Bald Knoll etc. all remain the same. You can always get leves there instead.
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#14 Nov 30 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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While I understand the complaints regarding wanting more SP for harder mobs, I don't understand the mentality that it takes too long to get to rank 50. Is playing the game such a chore that you don't enjoy ranking up but rather see it as a means to an end? Because right now there is no end. There's really nothing to do at rank 50.

If you honestly don't enjoy the game from rank 1-50 and instead view it as a job/gind/chore/etc. then perhaps this game isn't for you. Rank 50 will not be the final rank cap, and at least at first the tnr numbers are only going to get bigger, meaning more "grind" when they increase the rank cap.

If you think getting SP is too slow even with the new system, I want to ask you some honest questions: WHY do you think it's too slow? WHY do you want to rank up faster? What's the POINT to getting rank 50? And finally, if you don't enjoy ranking up (either party or solo), why do you continue to play?

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 9:40pm by Hydragyrum
#15 Nov 30 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I am a rank 19 Conjurer and have Weaving, Alchemy, Carpentry, and Botany at rank 15. I love the new sp system now that it is reliable. I agree that harder mobs should give you more sp than easy mobs, but I think of it this way... If you beat it solo, then yes you should get a lot of sp for killing it...but if you have say 5 people beating on it, then suddenly it is an easy mob and should give you the amount you would get for an easy mob. I am in no hurry to reach the top level. I expect to keep playing this game for a few years. If I get to the cap...then what? To me that is beating the game. GAME OVER. Hopefully SE stays ahead of me with nice juicy expansions. If I get one job to the top, well luckily there are so many other jobs to change to. Maybe I am just more patient with the game than most. I see a lot of forums where they say how much they hate the game. I understand it is new and is still growing. I know it needs fixes here and there. SE is trying to work with us so I wish people would be a bit more optimistic. "Constructive Criticism"
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#16 Nov 30 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Leveling is not as fun as it was. There is not point in joining a party or working together. We cannot even kill the mobs we could before because of the vit, shell, and protect nerfs. I do not want to have to kill 500 fat dodo's to level up. It is boring and stupid. Compare the sp per mob to the sp required to level at ranks 30+, then compare that ratio to that of ffxi. It isn't even close. If they had waited longer and released more content, maybe we wouldn't be complaining because we could be doing other things aside from leveling, but right now there is nothing to do but rank up, and they have decided to make that unnecessarily hard.
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#17 Nov 30 2010 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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lol a red mobs gave me under 120sp = fail
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#18 Nov 30 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
If you think getting SP is too slow even with the new system


Because the old system was slow, but still faster, and actually more rewarding when fighting "hard" mobs and actually take more tactic than just spamming normal attack to maximize SP (Debuff instead of just mindless attack). And people called it broken, what should people call the current system?
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#19 Nov 30 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
If you think getting SP is too slow even with the new system


Because the old system was slow, but still faster, and actually more rewarding when fighting "hard" mobs and actually take more tactic than just spamming normal attack to maximize SP (Debuff instead of just mindless attack). And people called it broken, what should people call the current system?


I don't understand, the old system rewarded you for "spamming normal attack". The new system encourages faster kills which means group tactics.

I can't say whether the old SP/hour is faster or slower than the new, but I honestly don't care. So what if the new system gives less SP/hour. Again I ask, why do you WANT more SP/hour? What's the goal? What's the purpose of hitting rank 50?
#20 Nov 30 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
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i think most reasonable individuals who really consider the situation would agree the current system is probably the way it should have been from the start. the problem comes from us being spoiled to a broken skillpoint gain system that borderlined on an exploit of the game mechanics imho (everyone intentionally stand in the aoe so healers get max sp in 1 cast!). does anyone really think square intended for us to join groups of 10+ people to spam zerg down mobs wayyyyy too high for us to consider otherwise? doubt it.

we got a couple months of a broken system that allowed for fast gains under very strict conditions that many players were unable or unwilling to partake in, now we have a system that is much more conducive to smaller friendly groups.
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#21 Nov 30 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
If you think getting SP is too slow even with the new system


Because the old system was slow, but still faster, and actually more rewarding when fighting "hard" mobs and actually take more tactic than just spamming normal attack to maximize SP (Debuff instead of just mindless attack). And people called it broken, what should people call the current system?


I don't understand, the old system rewarded you for "spamming normal attack". The new system encourages faster kills which means group tactics.


Wrong, that's why people thought the old system was slow SP. The old system does reward much more SP for debuff attack and heavy hitting attack and that's why people advance too fast. The new system encourages faster kills by picking up on weakling that die in a few normal hits.

And I can't believe that people like killing 1 millions critter like marmots for the next level. I understand that the old system is broken, but party of 10+ people "zerging" a mob way higher level than you is still much more entertaining that mass murdering a type of mobs that barely scratch you, something that apparently bot is doing much more efficient than us. Why? Because it's mindless, require no tactic and absolutely no risk. The new system should have rewarded more for taking on mobs way higher than your level, albeit making it even harder to kill like all mobs should now appear in group of 2-3 like the Magicked Bones.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:27am by Khornette
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#22 Dec 01 2010 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
Khornette wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
If you think getting SP is too slow even with the new system


Because the old system was slow, but still faster, and actually more rewarding when fighting "hard" mobs and actually take more tactic than just spamming normal attack to maximize SP (Debuff instead of just mindless attack). And people called it broken, what should people call the current system?


But what's the point of even attempting to rank up at all with a completely random system. Party, solo, leves...it's all meaningless if you're going to be randomly screwed. The main problem with the new system is a simple matter of scale, just needs to change what things check at and how much different difficulties are worth. I really don't care about the old system, where some people got chocolate bars and other people got...a rock. At least with the new system, nobody is ending up with a sack of rocks.
#23 Dec 01 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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The old system allowed for about 10k an hour in SP. At my rank, that means roughly 5 hours of straight grinding per level. I don't think that is too fast. Given that it takes time to set up a party, get to the location, and get your gear repaired, I would say that you could add another 2 hours onto that, maybe more. I don't think this is too fast, and I think that you would be hard pressed to argue otherwise. As of right now, there isn't even an incentive to party, and I get about half of what I got before. Tell me how this is better. The bottom line is, I get less sp for doing more work that is more monotonous and involves no strategy. Say what you will about the previous system making people spam certain moves, but when you fight efts and piestes in parties it requires strategy and tactics to keep everyone alive and the party running smoothly. From what I have seen on my server, nobody even parties anymore except to do leves, and those are usually easy to begin with. So please explain to me how this is better. I want to enjoy this, I really do, but I don't see how this is anything but a step backwards. If anyone has some information that I don't that will allow me to agree with you then I would like to hear it.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 2:42am by redfoxxredfoxx
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#24 Dec 01 2010 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
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tylerbee wrote:
The leveling rate is fine, my problem is that fighting easy blue mobs as the most efficient way of leveling is extremely mundane.

There are many reasons why I don't like it:

- No need for a tank
- No need for a healer
- No need for strategy
- No need for tactics
- No need for more than your standard attack and one TP move
- Heaps of boring running from mob to mob very frequently

The speed is fine. Before the speed was too quick, now its been balanced out for everyone. The problem is the most efficient way of leveling.


This cannot be argued with. As it is right it takes zero skill and bare minimal teamwork to do anything. The game rewards minimal effort - not insightful teamwork.
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#25 Dec 01 2010 at 3:08 AM Rating: Decent
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This cannot be argued with. As it is right it takes zero skill and bare minimal teamwork to do anything. The game rewards minimal effort - not insightful teamwork.


Do people not realize the downsides of changing the system?

Now, you need healer, tank, X number of classes and 56% waxing gibbous to get "acceptable" exp. Sure, fights may be more involving but you can consider yourself lucky if you can get to the business within 30mins of logging in. 4 people lfg? Too bad, you need 5th. No X class lfg? Too bad, you need to wait for one to pop. Do something with an unorthodox setup? Meh, it's not "worth it". X Y Z C W-setup is so much more efficient that you feel like going at a snail's pace with anything less.
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#26 Dec 01 2010 at 3:14 AM Rating: Good
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I don't want them to change the system, just a bit more of a reward for fighting red con mobs in a party would be nice and make it worth it.

As it is now, it isn't worth doing anything but blue mobs.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:20am by tylerbee
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#27 Dec 01 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
This cannot be argued with. As it is right it takes zero skill and bare minimal teamwork to do anything. The game rewards minimal effort - not insightful teamwork.


Do people not realize the downsides of changing the system?


Sorry, I'll accept the "downside" any day if it means I have a job and a reason to use two bars worth of powers/abilities rather then mashing my button over and over again. I am playing a game to be challenged on SOME level. In a party, its about as challenging and intuitive as pong.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:20am by Vackashken
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#28 Dec 01 2010 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I'll accept the "downside" any day if it means I have a job and a reason to use two bars worth of powers/abilities rather then mashing my button over and over again. I am playing a game to be challenged on SOME level. In a party, its about as challenging and intuitive as pong.


I know what you're getting at, but my point is, where should that "challenge" come into play? Is the primary progression method of the game really the best place to implement that "challenge"? The everyday activity that every player should be able to do effectively.

Even in XI, there was not much "challenging" about your everyday mob grinding. Yet you had to have everything precisely set-up or sh*t just wasn't "worth it". That's what I Really want to avoid.

I realize people loved this aspect of XI, but when it was so inaccessible that it ruined the whole game for many- I'm scared to go back to it, even with the good sides.

I think they can make the game more involving even with the current system.

I also think there can be many activities that can give that feeling of challenge, and make things a bit more inaccessible. As long as it's not required to progress, it can be as challenging as possible really.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:26pm by Hyanmen
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#29 Dec 01 2010 at 3:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't like the idea of only having party play at cap.

You dont need a reason to powerlevel if party play to level is implemented.
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#30 Dec 01 2010 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
I know what you're getting at, but my point is, where should that "challenge" come into play? Is the primary progression method of the game really the best place to implement that "challenge"? The everyday activity that every player should be able to do effectively.


Yes, since we're speaking in the context of SP gains and not overall challenge of the game itself.

Hyanmen wrote:
Even in XI, there was not much "challenging" about your everyday mob grinding. Yet you had to have everything precisely set-up or sh*t just wasn't "worth it". That's what I Really want to avoid.


I agree to a certain extent. Was there much challenge? Yes and no. No in the sense of everything becomes mundane sooner or later - it is inevitable. Yes - comparatively - because you had to know how to do your job and having someone skilled in the party absolutely made it faster and easier. It took team work - not excessive button mashing. 11, as aforementioned, became mundane in the way that doing it everyday became reactionary and second nature. Yet even still (again aforementioned) it made it easier/better if the person knew what they were doing. In this you don't need to know anything and how its scaled right now you're rewarded for fighting simpleton mobs rather then something that is actually dangerous.

Hyanmen wrote:
I realize people loved this aspect of XI, but when it was so inaccessible that it ruined the whole game for many- I'm scared to go back to it, even with the good sides.


I agree with you 100%. As much as I believe 11 to be superior it went too far in you need exacts to make a proper party. I do not want to go back to that at all. flexibility is the key - but also challenge and a need to have a job role - and learn it - is overwhelmingly important. As it is right now that simply does not exist.

Hyanmen wrote:
I think they can make the game more involving even with the current system.


I agree, I think they can too. They just haven't done it yet. Not even close.

Hyanmen wrote:
I also think there can be many activities that can give that feeling of challenge, and make things a bit more inaccessible. As long as it's not required to progress, it can be as challenging as possible really.


I agree, but thats not in the context we're speaking of. Missions, BCNMs (whatever they might be called this time around) NMs, etc will add challenge to the game. But the meat and potatoes of any MMO, in particular a FF online type (as set by its predecessor) is leveling and teamwork plus challenge. This simply does not exist yet. You are rewarded for killing the easiest mobs you can find that will give you decent SP and it is more efficient now to level in smaller groups of two to three then in a 6 man (or whatever) group.







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#31 Dec 01 2010 at 3:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree to a certain extent. Was there much challenge? Yes and no. No in the sense of everything becomes mundane sooner or later - it is inevitable. Yes - comparatively - because you had to know how to do your job and having someone skilled in the party absolutely made it faster and easier. It took team work - not excessive button mashing. 11, as aforementioned, became mundane in the way that doing it everyday became reactionary and second nature. Yet even still (again aforementioned) it made it easier/better if the person knew what they were doing. In this you don't need to know anything and how its scaled right now you're rewarded for fighting simpleton mobs rather then something that is actually dangerous.


I think they can get over this by taking the basic nature of the game further. If fighting one hard monster is not an option, they can increase the number of mobs in a "group" instead. If you have to fight against 6 monsters that, alone won't kill you but together they will- I think that, as well as giving us more exp as # of mobs increase- gives us the challenge we want.

I think it should also scale with the stars per leve. 5 stars makes you fight against 6 mobs at time, 4 stars 5 mobs, etc.

I might be overlooking something here though.
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#32 Dec 01 2010 at 4:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Doesn't work because

a) Targeting system is still rude for controllers
b) AoE TP moves don't hold threat over heals, so you'd need to run with a couple off tanks
c) Debuffs would be useless as the mob would die too fast
d) Buffs wouldn't be useless but I doubt people would bother with "one target" buffs

I just dont think fighting weak *** mobs is the answer tbqh, regardless of the number of em
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#33 Dec 01 2010 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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a) Targeting system is still rude for controllers
b) AoE TP moves don't hold threat over heals, so you'd need to run with a couple off tanks
c) Debuffs would be useless as the mob would die too fast
d) Buffs wouldn't be useless but I doubt people would bother with "one target" buffs


A) is definitely a problem that should be dealt with, but it should be taken care of either way... because even if all fights don't deal with groups, many do already.

B) I don't see it as a problem, since many classes can act as tanks. As long as they are not overwhelmed... but that's part of the challenge.

C) For the first mob that dies, I agree, but with 6 monsters the last few would definitely use some debuffs since they aren't dying fast, even if the first few are.

D) Are there such things?

Either way I think that this would spice things up quite a bit and make the abilities that need positioning more worthwhile too. Some problems need to be taken care of for things to work properly, but IMO this has to be done regardless of whether this kind of combat becomes "the norm" or not.
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#34 Dec 01 2010 at 4:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I can agree that its a problem but it definitely isn't a serious one. Also I love the vit nerfs and agi buffs, it gives the game a much faster pace and encourages hate passing. As for the exp theirs something peculiar about the sp gains after 20. You get almost 1/2 as much as you did. I don't think party exp would be that discouraging if people were receiving double what they were getting and i think SE would take the party complaints more seriously if this limit is gonna get lifted. As for the party system I don't think that oranges fought in parties should grant 3x the exp, thats a little much IMHO. I believe that at the most parties should earn double what soloers earn, thats more than enough to encourage the majority of the community to party while still giving soloers satisfying returns when they're in the mood to experiment with character abilities or party with a small group of close friends.

As for the complaints I only wish people would be a little more reasonable and say stuff like, "The exp isn't worth partying, its going to be very discouraging if the game remains like this for months to come" instead of the all to common, "What was SE thinking?! All i do is grind weak monsters Its so boring, why would they make such a stupid decision"

I just think a lot of developers ignore overly emotional complaints and it would be nice for everyone to calmly agree that party exp should at the very least be slightly improved, Its going to be difficult for SE to land a fair balance if the conflict becomes too emotionally charged.
#35 Dec 01 2010 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
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As for the exp theirs something peculiar about the sp gains after 20. You get almost 1/2 as much as you did. I don't think party exp would be that discouraging if people were receiving double what they were getting and i think SE would take the party complaints more seriously if this limit is gonna get lifted.


Actually, if you compare the system to XI you can see why it is that way.

XI: Exp stays the same, mobs get stronger. Group play emphasized, solo play suffers.

XIV: Mobs stay the same, exp gets a cut. Group play emphasized, solo play suffers but is not impossible.

In the end in XI with a group you can get same amount of exp (or more) than lvl1-10 player even with stronger monsters.

At the same time in XIV with a group you can get very close to the exp gain of a pre-rank 20 player due to the SP "total share" bonus being so massive.

Even yesterday I duoed with my friend doing guildleves non-stop for an hour and a half, from rank 1 to 10. I got around 20k exp in that time.

That's not far from what groups past rank 20 can pull off, not quite the same but then again, people can pull off impressive exp/hr numbers in XI too at the earliest levels.
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#36 Dec 01 2010 at 5:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I want a reason to group with and interact with other players. With the current SP system, dealing with other people only slows me down. The entire group-tactics mechanic is what attracted me to MMOs in the first place; I hate to see it marginalized in XIV.
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Melaahna Valiera
#37 Dec 01 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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498 posts
I like the general concept of more mobs, rather than one big tough mob.

In many jobs using debuffs, you can easily target the outliers, while continuing to damage a mob that is being tanked by someone else. Several of the debuff moves allow you to select a target other than your primary. Most of the spells do that as well.

Also, even on my "squishy" jobs like LNC and ARC I can still "tank" moderately hard mobs. Throw in abilities like stoneskin, cure, bloodbath, etc and as long as the mob doesn't have some Uber AOE or knockback that delivers twice my health in damage, I should be able to manage a mob all by myself. (I do regularly, especially in Leves going duo.)

So give us some "Golden horde" camps, where you have an area teeming with mobs, roaming in groups, let them have a pack mentality that the whole pack will attack if any of its members are attacked. Let our group separately work on different mobs, but support one another with extra cures, extra debuffs and quick TP moves with our leftover TP after finishing our own mob. Sounds chaotic, fun and exciting to me.

Will the targeting system as it stands need some love? ABSOLUTELY! You should have the 4 way controller left/right cycle mobs in the engaged group, and up/down target party members, and that should be that. Simple and effective way to cycle your targets. Make the target mob indicator also change to a party style indicator, which shows all of the mobs in the engaged group (or just the 4-6 closest, however you want to do it.)

That's my take.
#38 Dec 01 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
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588 posts
The new system is great but it smacks of elitism.

Sure its easier to lv up but the old system could have been tweaked to simply add a floor of 60 SP if thats what they wanted us to get instead of making it 60 SP maximum past 31.

Seems like they saw 40 people hit 50 per server 1.5 months after release and decided to punnish everybody else for it.

What gives?

PS I play this game am not going to quit and love it except im frustrated There is no incentive to group in 15 man parties what good is a linkshell now?? Explain this to me jsut simpley to do a 15 man NM leve? or LEVE farm 360k gil a person every week? This will get old and very booring fast.
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Cornyboob Funnyname Wutai Phys 50 Conj 49 Weaver 49 LW 34 Alch 28 Pug 22 Archer 20 Glad 19 Thaum 20 GS 11 Bot 9 Miner 8 Shield 44 Maur 3

#39 Dec 01 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
4 posts
tylerbee wrote:
The leveling rate is fine, my problem is that fighting easy blue mobs as the most efficient way of leveling is extremely mundane.

There are many reasons why I don't like it:

- No need for a tank
- No need for a healer
- No need for strategy
- No need for tactics
- No need for more than your standard attack and one TP move
- Heaps of boring running from mob to mob very frequently

The speed is fine. Before the speed was too quick, now its been balanced out for everyone. The problem is the most efficient way of leveling.


AMEN to this. In fact i think I'll copy/paste some of this into suggestions and feedback for this month (if that's alright). For now the only faint light at the end of the tunnel for me is NMs, hopefully they will offer much more of a challenge and actually give worthwhile SP.

The other day a conjurer and I (Gla) duo'd a rank 40 leve, had to kill several mobs to get a Necrologos, and then had an epic fight with a larger-than-normal Peiste. It was tons of fun, had to keep our defenses up, manage hate, and maximize damage. Involving & challenging, but we got a measly 175 skill points for all that work. I enjoyed the sense of accomplishment, but c'mon... 175 points? I know my character deserved more for that. I could've stepped on three marmots and got the same amount of points... So SE is telling us that squashing three mice in 30 seconds should be equal to spending 7 minutes fighting a dragon? F*CK that.

I shouldn't have to choose between good points and an enjoyable challenge, it should go hand in hand.
#40 Dec 01 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
7 posts
lets compare FF11 takes 3 months to get to 75 WoW when I fist played it got to 50 capped Keller and couldntn do anything more people want FF14 to be like WoW now??? 2 weeks and your done with the whole game? >< how sad, I guess in that case you can't call it a MMO anymore note: I said FF11 takes 3 months to 75 wouldn't you think FF14 would do it in a similiar ^^

PLease disreguard this post something is wrong with the SP system and SE needs to look into like if somehow a person can atleast gain 1 level per day that would be good

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 9:42pm by Dedia
#41 Dec 01 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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80 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
If you think getting SP is too slow even with the new system


Because the old system was slow, but still faster, and actually more rewarding when fighting "hard" mobs and actually take more tactic than just spamming normal attack to maximize SP (Debuff instead of just mindless attack). And people called it broken, what should people call the current system?


I don't understand, the old system rewarded you for "spamming normal attack". The new system encourages faster kills which means group tactics.

I can't say whether the old SP/hour is faster or slower than the new, but I honestly don't care. So what if the new system gives less SP/hour. Again I ask, why do you WANT more SP/hour? What's the goal? What's the purpose of hitting rank 50?


running around killing coblyns for 60sp at rank 40 is more mindless than aoe cure spamming raptors...at least you had to pay attention with them a bit or risk death.
#42 Dec 01 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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1,842 posts
Quote:
the new system seems like it was ment more for the 11-30 group
Because it was. If I remember from an interview this was SE solution for people saying the game has no content. Instead of adding stuff at level 1-30, they just made it faster to get to 20-30 for class quest.....

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 11:11am by dyvidd
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#43 Dec 01 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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180 posts
tylerbee wrote:
The leveling rate is fine, my problem is that fighting easy blue mobs as the most efficient way of leveling is extremely mundane.

There are many reasons why I don't like it:

- No need for a tank
- No need for a healer
- No need for strategy
- No need for tactics
- No need for more than your standard attack and one TP move
- Heaps of boring running from mob to mob very frequently

The speed is fine. Before the speed was too quick, now its been balanced out for everyone. The problem is the most efficient way of leveling.


This is the main reason why I'm quitting the game. I want the leveling process to be slow, and I'm fine if it takes a year to get to the cap. My issue is that the process of getting to the cap is boring as **** and there currently isn't even an incentive to do it. Party play requires less attention than solo play because the enemies die too fast and you rarely have to manage both damage output and HP recovery. As for solo grinding, I refuse to do that in an MMO except for during downtime while seeking a party (can we still not do that yet?!). I have offline games with a better single player experience that are more worthy of my time.

In FFXI I had to learn how to play a role and my ability to play that role directly impacted the performance of my party. I loved that every time I picked up a new job it was like a whole new game. I couldn't wait to get up to speed and try it out in a party. I also made a lot of friends in pick-up groups because we actually socialized. In FFXIV you don't have time for that because you're too busy hitting "1" repeatedly and searching for the next SP fodder. This game is missing many of FFXI's faults, yes, but I've come to realize that it's also missing everything that made FFXI good.

By the time the developers figure out what the heck they are doing this game will have already been ruined.
#44 Dec 01 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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180 posts
dyvidd wrote:
Quote:
the new system seems like it was ment more for the 11-30 group
Because it was. If I remember from an interview this was SE solution for people saying the game has no content. Instead of adding stuff at level 1-30, they just made it faster to get to 20-30 for class quest.....

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 11:11am by dyvidd


Yeah, I don't understand their reasoning behind that. Speed everyone through the game even faster so that they can enjoy a five minute long joke of a class quest. I've done three of them and every single one was a complete disappointment. They need to make the actual meat of the game fun instead of trying to hurry people through it.
#45 Dec 01 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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322 posts
Thanks for your kind words everyone.

Right now depending on what they do with the SP and combat systems depends on whether I stay or not. I'll probably stick around for a long while yet crafting and gathering but if this doesn't change soon i'm out.

I really wanted some group based leveling with strategy and tactics like FFXI. Without that, this game offers nothing that WoW and other MMOs doesn't, in fact less.
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#46 Dec 01 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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7,106 posts
Quote:
There is no incentive to group in 15 man parties what good is a linkshell now??

Really? You can't see any value at all in having a group of friends in the game aside from joining a giant party to EXP grind?
#47 Dec 01 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
weesol wrote:
I like the general concept of more mobs, rather than one big tough mob.

In many jobs using debuffs, you can easily target the outliers, while continuing to damage a mob that is being tanked by someone else. Several of the debuff moves allow you to select a target other than your primary. Most of the spells do that as well.

Also, even on my "squishy" jobs like LNC and ARC I can still "tank" moderately hard mobs. Throw in abilities like stoneskin, cure, bloodbath, etc and as long as the mob doesn't have some Uber AOE or knockback that delivers twice my health in damage, I should be able to manage a mob all by myself. (I do regularly, especially in Leves going duo.)

So give us some "Golden horde" camps, where you have an area teeming with mobs, roaming in groups, let them have a pack mentality that the whole pack will attack if any of its members are attacked. Let our group separately work on different mobs, but support one another with extra cures, extra debuffs and quick TP moves with our leftover TP after finishing our own mob. Sounds chaotic, fun and exciting to me.

Will the targeting system as it stands need some love? ABSOLUTELY! You should have the 4 way controller left/right cycle mobs in the engaged group, and up/down target party members, and that should be that. Simple and effective way to cycle your targets. Make the target mob indicator also change to a party style indicator, which shows all of the mobs in the engaged group (or just the 4-6 closest, however you want to do it.)

That's my take.


these are great suggestions. Sounds fun! Besides didn't SE promise party vs party play? They need to fix multiple mob SP/group them to make this work, however.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#48 Dec 01 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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1,948 posts
Dedia wrote:
lets compare FF11 takes 3 months to get to 75 WoW when I fist played it got to 50 capped Keller and couldntn do anything more people want FF14 to be like WoW now??? 2 weeks and your done with the whole game? >< how sad, I guess in that case you can't call it a MMO anymore note: I said FF11 takes 3 months to 75 wouldn't you think FF14 would do it in a similar way?? ^^


Because it has been 2 months, at this rate it would be another 2 months or even 3 - 4 before the people in mid 30 to reach 50. That's a total whooping 6 months maximum, how is that compared to your oh-so-precious FFXI? Not everyone playing FFXIV played FFXI btw, me for example. And no, I expected it to be slow, like the past-slow, not the current new-slow which is even slower. Aint the fatigue system supposed to slow down people? And besides the thing most people complain is the lack of reward for tactical group play.
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#49 Dec 01 2010 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
i'm waiting till ps3 vrison hope they chenge the the sp gain
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#50 Dec 01 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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131 posts
tmproff wrote:
I'm sure people will find a way to get high level SP group or solo even when they are 30+ ... it's all just new and people are still figuring it out. People shouldn't be angry when they don't get the maximum 500 for each kill, that should still happen, but be rare.


Nope, the problem is that harder enemies dont give that much more SP than blue or green ranked monsters when in a party. Example: Kill a green ranked Coblyn in a 4 person party 120SP, Kill a brown ranked Coblyn in the same party, and you get the same amount of SP or maybe 5-10 points more.

There just needs to be a larger gap in reward for stronger monsters. Leve party exp is fine, but outside? No way.
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#51 Dec 02 2010 at 3:30 AM Rating: Default
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588 posts
The obvious friends aside, but thanks for trying to make me look dumb by assuming you know my thoughts lol. everyone knows i do a good enough job at it myself.

Caesura wrote:
Quote:
There is no incentive to group in 15 man parties what good is a linkshell now??

Really? You can't see any value at all in having a group of friends in the game aside from joining a giant party to EXP grind?

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Cornyboob Funnyname Wutai Phys 50 Conj 49 Weaver 49 LW 34 Alch 28 Pug 22 Archer 20 Glad 19 Thaum 20 GS 11 Bot 9 Miner 8 Shield 44 Maur 3

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