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I met a terribly selfish Carpenter.....Follow

#52 Dec 02 2010 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't have minded if he botched the synth...he has no control over that. I also believe he should be paid for his work, but 50k gill for 5 minutes of his time is silly. Also, if he told me he was too busy, I'd understand that as well, but he didn't.


Some people charge 25k to teleport you to another city. That's seconds of their time.

I don't think what he was asking for was unfair. I'm assuming since he was in his 40s you wanted a pretty good bow. There are spears around level 16 that are selling for over 100k.
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#53 Dec 02 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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If you cannot afford the price the crafter is charging, you probably shouldn't be using the item in the first place.

Nothing in the game states a crafter HAS to do anything for anyone else, it would be like me saying that high level battler should of killed that high level mob I agroed on the way to do my leves. We as crafters have a right to put any price we deem fit for the task requested of us.

Like other have stated it would be very easy for you to take those bows and sell them and by what you were offering, nearly double what you spent. Whether or not this was your intention, it still doesn't exclude it from being a possibility.
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#54 Dec 02 2010 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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I think crafters need to stop incorporating their level and time/materials to level into their prices. When a dude walks up to you and asks you for a repair/synth, all they should really think about is the oppertunity cost. Is this next 1-10 minutes going to be worth what hes offering me. And if its not, either counter offer or say no thanks, I'm busy.

the biggest community problem this game has are people charging 24k to repair something the NPC repairs for 30, even if it uses a 2k mat. Or people charging above market rate for stuff just because its a synth 20 levels below them. By that logic wind shards farmed by a level 50 are worth more than a wind shard farmed by a level 10.

(I don't want to place blame solely on crafters for stuff. The guys offering 1g for repairs or trying to gouge on crystals are just as bad, but less relavent to this conversation. Personally I think the hatred some DOM/DOM and DOH have towards each other is going to be what hurts the game the most).
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#55 Dec 02 2010 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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I try to think of it as a business partnership. One guy has the stuff and the other guy has the skill. First guy says "hey I need something done, I hear your the guy, help me out and I will cut you in on a bit of the profit" sorta idea. So having to pay a -fair cost- to get it made is reasonable. This idea of having to pay a very minimal fee is just silly. They don't know if your selling anything based off their craft and deserve to be paid for that. If you don't like what he wants to charge find someone else but you shouldn't be upset over it.

Sure it takes 5 minutes to synth it. But your going to -make a greater profit over his work-. If you didn't need him you wouldn't be in that predicament. There is alot of overcharging going on due to the small number of high level crafter but things are definitely starting to swing a bit now as people are starting to get to higher.

Oh and overcharging isn't selfish. It's simply getting overpaid from someone to impatient to find/get the item elsewhere. If they are one of very few with the skill -expect to pay through the nose- just like you would in real life or buying brand name for the label.
#56 Dec 02 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
Am I the only crafter who doesn't charge for helping people out?

Honestly as long as I don't have 20 people in queue waiting for me to craft/repair something for them and as long as I get the materials for the craft I do not actually expect anything in return (yep you heard it correct!)
Usually I get gil, shards, extra materials anyway and also in MANY occasions the favour returns to me multiple times.

Yes, I think the crafter you met was greedy and selfish!

In my opinnion, if you don't want to help someone out cos you are for example just in the mood of doing your own things, then just say "sorry I am busy"

I think the whole argument of "the crafter had to spend so much lvling up to that point" is absolute rubbish. We all choose the jobs we want to play and I have managed just fine without any sponsorships.
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#57 Dec 02 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Boompyro wrote:
I try to think of it as a business partnership. One guy has the stuff and the other guy has the skill. First guy says "hey I need something done, I hear your the guy, help me out and I will cut you in on a bit of the profit" sorta idea. So having to pay a -fair cost- to get it made is reasonable. This idea of having to pay a very minimal fee is just silly. They don't know if your selling anything based off their craft and deserve to be paid for that. If you don't like what he wants to charge find someone else but you shouldn't be upset over it.

Sure it takes 5 minutes to synth it. But your going to -make a greater profit over his work-. If you didn't need him you wouldn't be in that predicament. There is alot of overcharging going on due to the small number of high level crafter but things are definitely starting to swing a bit now as people are starting to get to higher.

Oh and overcharging isn't selfish. It's simply getting overpaid from someone to impatient to find/get the item elsewhere. If they are one of very few with the skill -expect to pay through the nose- just like you would in real life or buying brand name for the label.


The only thing is, its not a partnership. Its more like contract work.
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#58 Dec 02 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
Am I the only crafter who doesn't charge for helping people out?

Honestly as long as I don't have 20 people in queue waiting for me to craft/repair something for them and as long as I get the materials for the craft I do not actually expect anything in return (yep you heard it correct!)
Usually I get gil, shards, extra materials anyway and also in MANY occasions the favour returns to me multiple times.

Yes, I think the crafter you met was greedy and selfish!

In my opinnion, if you don't want to help someone out cos you are for example just in the mood of doing your own things, then just say "sorry I am busy"

I think the whole argument of "the crafter had to spend so much lvling up to that point" is absolute rubbish. We all choose the jobs we want to play and I have managed just fine without any sponsorships.


You're rank 16 / 20 in your crafts.

Imagine you took all the time you put into your crafts.

And multiplied it by 10. So the five hours that you put in your crafts to get it to 20 was really around fifty hours to get to 40. (Although, it's probably more. Someting like 15x)

And now imagine every five minutes, someone on the server /telled you asking for you to help. (Found by a database such as ffxivpro, so you don't know 80% of your clientelle. And 50% of these clients don't speak english)

Now imagine you finally got some peace and quiet for once, and some noob walks up to you saying, "Hey, can you make me some Hempen Cowls? I'll give you 5 wind shards for it"

That is what this is equivalent to.

Oh, I almost forgot. And you suddenly had negative 60,000 earth shards in your inventory, and negative 400 lightning crystals. But if it makes you feel better, you have dozens and dozens of stack of cotton, canvas, and velveteen cloth completely unused.


Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 10:30am by Meowshi
#59 Dec 02 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Wow, wind shards for 200 Gil each??? On Selbina they average 350 - 450 gil each.

Like others have said, once you don't agree to his terms seek out another carpenter. After running into to the same situation a few times my self, i stumbled onto ffxivpro.com. I was able to find qualified crafters for specific items I needed. Once I find a player and hope they understand English I ask for their assistance and give em a proposal for the reward. ( This is pretty rare since my LS has all crafts except gold smith, and cooking covered. )

My last venture was for Aldgoat Horn Bow Grips ( which actually use no Aldgoat Horns, only Antelope Horns ) I offered a amount, and the player accepted ( though I doubled the offer as a bonus ). So if your not in a rush use other avenues to hook up with crafters. Also make sure to offer a bonus or tip, you never know when you need their skills once more ( or better yet another craft your looking for ).
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#60 Dec 02 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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tmproff wrote:
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Well, it sounds like you said/did everything right. Honestly, just stick around the guild and I'm sure someone else will come along that would be glad to do it for you.


Yep, later on that night, I had a nice guy come along that offered to do them for free. I paid him 20k gill and he was very happy...he even asked me to equip it so he could see what it looked like.



So why create a hate thread?
Ever played a online game before? these people are just Real People. Another words, the good, the bad and the ugly.

Some people love helping others, some couldnt care less, some would love it if no one else existed to bother them.

At times I will help, at times I get on to just get on with my own game. "It was only 5 minutes" and do you think you are the only person who probably asked for help?
It was like walking through the Dunes in XI back in the day as a Healer job (WHM, RDM) do you think YOU was the only tom **** or harry that asked for a raise or PL?

You have to remember there can be a number of reasons why some one gave a rude response. I have done it enough. Cant be polite 24/7 especially when you just want to get on and play.

Gil is very easy to come by and the time you spent in getting the items you could of easily farmed the gil and bought them. XIV is brilliant on the gil front, it is so easy to have gil.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 10:43am by Lonix
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#61 Dec 02 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Rjain wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't have minded if he botched the synth...he has no control over that. I also believe he should be paid for his work, but 50k gill for 5 minutes of his time is silly. Also, if he told me he was too busy, I'd understand that as well, but he didn't.


Some people charge 25k to teleport you to another city. That's seconds of their time.

I don't think what he was asking for was unfair. I'm assuming since he was in his 40s you wanted a pretty good bow. There are spears around level 16 that are selling for over 100k.


I can easily get 50K on day of doing leves at rank 20...so at rank 30+ leves how much is the average gil rewards?
I think he wasn't really busy, but he just can't accept your offer, and thus why he made a counter offer. Most people are never too busy for a favor if you offer something they can't refuse.


LeilaniWildfire wrote:
I think the whole argument of "the crafter had to spend so much lvling up to that point" is absolute rubbish. We all choose the jobs we want to play and I have managed just fine without any sponsorships.


Unlike the battle classes, the crafters provides a service and creates items. And to skill up you need to invest a lot more gil that other classes, unless you are taking the slow way through leves. I used up more than a stack of brass nuggets just to get my GSM from 19-20, if I had just sold the nuggets and the crystals, I would have easily made 300K of it. Now would a battle class spend 300k on just 1 level? Maybe when you upgrade to a new set of gears, but that gear would be worth several levels. So no, you just can't discount the cost of skilling up for crafting classes. They spent a fortune trying to get high faster than others, because they wanted to be able to create higher level items that are worth selling than the hempen/bronze gears in the lower level.

You could compare this with your studies, a lot of people goes to college so that they can get better jobs (most of the time), and few more try to get masters to get better pay and better stability....



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#62 Dec 02 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
Meowshi wrote:
LeilaniWildfire wrote:
Am I the only crafter who doesn't charge for helping people out?

Honestly as long as I don't have 20 people in queue waiting for me to craft/repair something for them and as long as I get the materials for the craft I do not actually expect anything in return (yep you heard it correct!)
Usually I get gil, shards, extra materials anyway and also in MANY occasions the favour returns to me multiple times.

Yes, I think the crafter you met was greedy and selfish!

In my opinnion, if you don't want to help someone out cos you are for example just in the mood of doing your own things, then just say "sorry I am busy"

I think the whole argument of "the crafter had to spend so much lvling up to that point" is absolute rubbish. We all choose the jobs we want to play and I have managed just fine without any sponsorships.


You're rank 16 / 20 in your crafts.

Imagine you took all the time you put into your crafts.

And multiplied it by 10. So the five hours that you put in your crafts to get it to 20 was really around fifty hours to get to 40. (Although, it's probably more. Someting like 15x)

And now imagine every five minutes, someone on the server /telled you asking for you to help. (Found by a database such as ffxivpro, so you don't know 80% of your clientelle. And 50% of these clients don't speak english)

Now imagine you finally got some peace and quiet for once, and some noob walks up to you saying, "Hey, can you make me some Hempen Cowls? I'll give you 5 wind shards for it"

That is what this is equivalent to.

Oh, I almost forgot. And you suddenly had negative 60,000 earth shards in your inventory, and negative 400 lightning crystals. But if it makes you feel better, you have dozens and dozens of stack of cotton, canvas, and velveteen cloth completely unused.


Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 10:30am by Meowshi



Yep, imagined.

I still wouldn't charge - I have no problem telling people that I am busy. I had crafts (funnily enough also clothcraft) lvld in FF11 to 100+ and never charged in that game either.

I seriously don't mind if someone profits from something I made, good for them. I am sure one day I will profit from something that someone makes for me.

Maybe I am getting old and soft in the head but I would seriously NEVER charge anyone for any crafts if they provided the materials. If they wanted to pay something, great... if they couldn't afford to compensate my precious time then at least I made someone happy. That's what games are for me...

When I am 50 in my CC and LW I'll make you something free as well and maybe you then will chill out a bit ;)
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#63 Dec 02 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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The guy didnt want to synth your item. Whats the big deal?
#64 Dec 02 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, to be honest, I don't think the OP is quite right when calling him an ***. Maybe the guy just got home from a long day at work or whatever, and he just wanted to grind out a rank and log off or something. Sure, helping others out is great and all, but did the OP even consider if maybe he was bumping into the carpenter's money-making recipe?

I had 100+3 WW in XI and I did it 100% to make gil - sure, I'd just synth for friends free, but having someone come over and give you mats for you to make could just mean that's one less person that will buy it off the AH.

I'll agree with the post earlier that there can be an annoying amount of entitlement in lower rank/level players, thinking that somehow people with higher rank/level owe them all the help they want.

All in all, he just didn't feel like doing it, just let it go
#65 Dec 02 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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As long as there is no AH, we will be having to deal with situations like this a lot. More likely than not, you'll end up conceding and paying the overinflated price because you know it will take you countless hours more to find someone else.
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#66 Dec 02 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
Maybe I am getting old and soft in the head but I would seriously NEVER charge anyone for any crafts if they provided the materials. If they wanted to pay something, great... if they couldn't afford to compensate my precious time then at least I made someone happy. That's what games are for me...


Although I do not necessarily agree with my fellow Besaidian's sentiments about the OP's crafter experience being selfish and greedy, I do agree with her sentiments here about how I, personally, don't go out of my way to charge people for my services, nor will I even as I start hitting the higher rank rungs for every craft (as an aside, I'm taking it slow and steady by bringing up everything in increments of 5 ranks). So long as I am given any and all items required for the synthesis, including the shards or crystals or clusters needed to attempt it, then I'm fine. If they want to tip me? Hey, awesome. If not, no big deal.

As it is right now, I am wallowing in gil. And I think most other people are, too. I make plenty enough from the different leves I do (I make an effort to do all 16 alotted to me every reset), and the equipment I make myself to sell. I'm in no dire need of gil from services rendered to people, and considering how this economy works as well as the numerous ways to attain gil outside of the crafting business, I don't see that changing for me.
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#67 Dec 02 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's just like real-life regarding services. I'll compare it to contact lenses since I work in the optical field. Call one doctor, he'll charge you $300 for the exam and fitting and $80 for 1 box of lenses. Call another at a big-box retailer like Sam's or Costco and you might get an $80 exam and lenses for $25 a box. Is one better than the other? Judge for yourself.

Some people will treat their crafting like a career, and they'll be running excel spreadsheets detailing profit margins, cost ratios, etc in the background. They'll spend hours on zam and yg researching. If they find something profitable out, they'll keep it to themselves. If you /tell them, they'll go over a contract with costs, risk of break, what happens if they HQ. Others will happily craft something for free for total strangers and /bow afterward.

I was lucky a month ago when I wanted a tarred walking hat, and went searching for R35+ clothcrafters. It was mid-October so pretty rare to find one. The hats were rare, and I only saw one for 200k in a bazaar once. I found a guy who posts and who I knew and he was the first guy I mentioned above. Wanted x amount of gil, plus shards, plus HQ he keeps and gets me NQ, etc. Blah, blah. I was super-poor so I said no thanks. Randomly was crafting in Gridania a day later and I saw a JP 39 clothcrafter and asked him. I offered 30k gil and I would provide the materials and he said ok. He made an HQ and returned my gil afterward too, then /bow and /cheer.

If someone is unreasonable or you don't like their all-business approach, find another crafter.
#68 Dec 02 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
As a crafter I make it pretty well known that I will synth up pretty much whatever for people free of charge. Even though I don't ask for payment most people tend to give me extra shards and crystals others toss me 10k for the trouble etc. I do the same with low level armor when I see people asking or shouting for pretty much anything like a Sheepsin harness or Dodoskin harness they really cost me next to nothing and I figure that by helping people out a bunch at some point someone will remember it when I need something. Honestly though I think you just had bad luck with that crafter or caught them on a day when lots of people where asking for synths.
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#69 Dec 02 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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To anyone saying level doesnt matter, that you shouldnt charge based on stuff like that

tell that to the battlecrafters who charge really high prices for stuff that only drops from the highest level mobs
by the same theory, you shouldnt have to pay for what level the stuff is right? cuz thats not important


As far as this whole situation, shame on you OP for even calling someone out at all like this, regardless of wether or not you named them. Personaly, I would refuse you service if I ever saw you based on this post alone.

So what if someone wanted to charge you alot? It is not his job to make your items. The seller sets the price, the buyer agrees or does not agree. In this case, you didnt agree. So move on(which it seems like you did).

But to call someone out on here, is in extreme poor taste. Especialy, when they did NOTHING WRONG.



As ive stated to people when it comes to repairs, or anything else. If you dont like the price, level the crafts yourself, and then you will actualy understand the price.
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#70tmproff, Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 1:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I disagree. Putting his ingame name in my post would be calling him out. Sounds like you are a selfish crafter too. I hope you die alone.
#71 Dec 02 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vedis wrote:
So what if someone wanted to charge you alot?


http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
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#72 Dec 02 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree. Putting his ingame name in my post would be calling him out. Sounds like you are a selfish crafter too. I hope you die alone.

From almost anyone else I'd decide this was intentional trolling, but I think you really don't understand what's going on here.

Do you have this much difficulty shopping in real life? Are you the person who holds up the line at the grocery store because you're arguing with the clerk that $6 is too much for a cake?
#73 Dec 02 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Default
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As guy, I usually dont like shopping period :) But no, at least there are $$ amounts on the items at a grocery store.

If this were a one sided arguement, I'd concede, but it seems that there is a fair amount of people on both sides of this arguement which makes it valid in my opinion, and I not missing anything.


Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 3:54pm by tmproff
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#74 Dec 02 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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What is confusing is when you completed you story, you went on to stay you met the antithesis of "the terribly selfish Carpenter" and got your work done potentially for free.

Human nature always wins out in the end and we'll relate the horror stories but glance over the polar opposites within the bat of an eye.

You should create a new thread and indicate this awesome crafter who did the work for free without thought of compensation. ;)
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#75 Dec 02 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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tmproff wrote:
As guy, I usually dont like shopping period :) But no, at least there are $$ amounts on the items at a grocery store.

If this were a one sided arguement, I'd concede, but it seems that there is a fair amount of people on both sides of this arguement which makes it valid in my opinion, and I not missing anything.


Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 3:54pm by tmproff


Right, but it's not like you went into a bakery and argued about the price of a cake; it's like you happened to see a baker on the street and asked him to bake you a cake, then complained about his pricing.
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#76 Dec 02 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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tmproff wrote:
Quote:
As far as this whole situation, shame on you OP for even calling someone out at all like this, regardless of wether or not you named them. Personaly, I would refuse you service if I ever saw you based on this post alone.


I disagree. Putting his ingame name in my post would be calling him out. Sounds like you are a selfish crafter too. I hope you die alone.


Hey OP. Don't you think hoping for someone to die alone is a little too excessive? Is it really called for? Based on your reaction, I think I would also refuse you service. There is no need for that last sentence.

#77 Dec 02 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Right, but it's not like you went into a bakery and argued about the price of a cake; it's like you happened to see a baker on the street and asked him to bake you a cake, then complained about his pricing.


Baker: "I'll bake you that cake for $30"
Me: "But it's only worth $40, and I spent $20 on the ingredients!
Baker: "I dont care..do you know how long I've been baking cakes!!!?"

Quote:
Hey OP. Don't you think hoping for someone to die alone is a little too excessive? Is it really called for? Based on your reaction, I think I would also refuse you service. There is no need for that last sentence.


Calm down, I was only joking.
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Irishclass777 said: crafting is crafting no matter the game just because crafting is a job in ffxiv don't it much change much.

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#78 Dec 02 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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shards as payment XD lol like if i gave a vacuum cleaner to my wife for upcoming xmas. "but it's an expensive vacuum cleaner D:" lol classic
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#79 Dec 02 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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It really saddens me how many people are only out to make a buck. I mean, it really shouldn't be a surprise since we live in a world that is run on capitalism and greed, but it still does.

What happened to the days of helping out your fellow man (or woman)? Now, everyone has turned that help into profit. It honestly makes me sick to my stomach to think about that, but unfortunately there isn't a lot that can be done about it. I guess I just kind of hoped that in a game, people would be more conducive to helping others out as opposed to using people to make a quick buck.
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#80 Dec 02 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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tmproff wrote:
Quote:
Right, but it's not like you went into a bakery and argued about the price of a cake; it's like you happened to see a baker on the street and asked him to bake you a cake, then complained about his pricing.


Baker: "I'll bake you that cake for $30"
Me: "But it's only worth $40, and I spent $20 on the ingredients!
Baker: "I dont care..do you know how long I've been baking cakes!!!?"


Yeah, the amount of money you spent on ingredients isn't terribly relevant to the person making the cake. If it's worth $40, then baking if for you for $30 is less than it's worth. Plus I recall a couple posters saying you overpaid for some of the mats anyway. If you paid $10 for a dozen eggs, the baker shouldn't be expected to cut you a break for that.

EDIT: Ultimately, it's his right to charge whatever he wants for his service and it's your right to refuse him and look elsewhere if you don't like his price.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 5:19pm by Mikhalia
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#81 Dec 02 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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I'm in the middle on this one as a high level crafter.

First off 60 wind shards is a slap in the face for 2 high level weapon synths. On the opposite end, 300 wind shards per synth (so 600 total) is on the extreme for the crafter.

You are not paying for "5 minutes of work", you are paying for the ability of the crafter to make a high level item that he spent hours to get. Look at it this way, say I buy Yew Logs. It is just as easy for a level 35 botanist to gather Yew Logs as it is for him to gather oak logs, then why should I pay 9k for Yew Logs and only 3K for Oak Logs. As a carpenter I should only have to pay 3K because it takes the same 5 minutes of work to get them as Oak, right? Obviously you can see that is ridiculous.

For this scenario, lets say those bows sell for 150K each. So you gathered up 30K for the scale glue and say 20K for all the other stuff. The remaining margin on that item is 100K, which is due to the time spent to gather materials and obviously the demand for high level crafters. Well you did some of the work, and you are obviously taking all the risk since the carpenter doesn't have to pay if he fails, so obviously you wouldn't pay the full 100K premium.

But 60 wind shards for 2 synths = 6000g per synth is pretty sad. I could see why he wouldn't want to ruin his potential market for a measly 6k, and frankly unless I know you it would be a waste of time for me also. I mean, in the amount of time it takes to trade multiple times, load up all the mats, and go through the synths, you could probably get on a level 1 character and farm that many shards.

Maybe it's because I'm a crafter also, but I pay other crafters 10K per mat synth, not even a full weapon. Just last night I paid an armorer mats + 30k for 3 iron spike synths.

60K for a weapon synth is high except maybe in extreme cases, but 6K per synth is also low. From what people have paid me and what I pay others, 20-30K per synth for finished items is reasonable, considering what you save from buying it outright.

And while I salute some people in this thread for doing "free synths", I noticed that most of your are in your 20s. There is a huge difference between having a 40+ crafter and a 20+ crafter. For instance, from 42-43 on carpenter it takes about 400 yew lumber. When I was grinding the market value of a log was 9k, and wind shards were 350g before the November patch. With no HQs, it takes 100 logs, 1200 wind to break down the logs, then 1600 wind and ice to make masks. Thats 2.12M in expense and let's just assume you don't fail for this scenario, 512K back from the vendor. Obviously that 1.5M in negative profit is made by selling gear, providing services, repairs etc. Taking that into account, you can see why he probably wouldn't bother with 12K.

I mean I pay 3K per sheepskin to grind leatherworking. Fleece vendors for like 100g each. At this stage in the game, all the high level crafters have spent significant money and also time pressing enter all day long, and such you should pay them something reasonable. That will change as the game progresses and casuals eventually catch up down the road just by grinding leves and doing a few synths per day on mats they find themselves.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 5:41pm by Strifexx
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#82 Dec 02 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
It really saddens me how many people are only out to make a buck. I mean, it really shouldn't be a surprise since we live in a world that is run on capitalism and greed, but it still does.

What happened to the days of helping out your fellow man (or woman)? Now, everyone has turned that help into profit. It honestly makes me sick to my stomach to think about that, but unfortunately there isn't a lot that can be done about it. I guess I just kind of hoped that in a game, people would be more conducive to helping others out as opposed to using people to make a quick buck.


yes, indeed. but this is not a friend or a person in need. i consider good equipment to be more of a luxury. you can't just expect to walk up to any crafter and TAKE ADVANTAGE that you happened to meet him face to face. 100k is not a lot. he wanted TWO bows. idc pay up.
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#83 Dec 02 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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A guy brings a car in to a mechanic because it is running oddly. The mechanic pops the hood, gets a wrench, turns one ***** 1/8" of an inch and the problem has been resolved. He hands the customer a bill for $60.

The customer says "This is outrageous! Why am I paying you $60 to turn a *****?"

The mechanic says "You're paying me $0.50 to turn the ***** and $59.50 for knowing which ***** to turn and how far to turn it"



There's a reason that skilled laborers make $20/hr and more when fast food and retail employees make less than $10/hr. There's a reason that as a Network Administrator, I do LESS WORK (like post on forums while I'm waiting for something to install) than I did as a Desktop Technician, and make significantly more money.

I'm not being paid X dollars for the work I do when I fix things, I'm being paid X dollars because I know what to fix and how to fix it.
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Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
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#84 Dec 02 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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178 posts
TempLoop wrote:
shards as payment XD lol like if i gave a vacuum cleaner to my wife for upcoming xmas. "but it's an expensive vacuum cleaner D:" lol classic


lol this analogy is so much win!

and i love how it's subliminal message suggests how broken the shard economy is right now. Unless you're a DoM or DoW who charges 50gil/shard (which i have seen numerous times) then I don't think you're justified in calling any crafter greedy.

#85 Dec 02 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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tmproff wrote:
Quote:
Right, but it's not like you went into a bakery and argued about the price of a cake; it's like you happened to see a baker on the street and asked him to bake you a cake, then complained about his pricing.


Baker: "I'll bake you that cake for $30"
Me: "But it's only worth $40, and I spent $20 on the ingredients!
Baker: "I dont care..do you know how long I've been baking cakes!!!?"

Quote:
Hey OP. Don't you think hoping for someone to die alone is a little too excessive? Is it really called for? Based on your reaction, I think I would also refuse you service. There is no need for that last sentence.


Calm down, I was only joking.


Lawyer: I'll help you defend this case for $150 an hour.
You: But I bring you this case, without me you don't have a case to defend! I also bring you the documents! Do it for $10 an hour or GTFO
Lawyer: Lolwut

BartelX wrote:
It really saddens me how many people are only out to make a buck. I mean, it really shouldn't be a surprise since we live in a world that is run on capitalism and greed, but it still does.

What happened to the days of helping out your fellow man (or woman)? Now, everyone has turned that help into profit. It honestly makes me sick to my stomach to think about that, but unfortunately there isn't a lot that can be done about it. I guess I just kind of hoped that in a game, people would be more conducive to helping others out as opposed to using people to make a quick buck.


The point is not to make buck out of something. The point is the guy has the right to choose between making a buck or do it as a favour. Do you think people in third world country starving to death should just work in sweat shop for free or they are instant asses because they are greedy and **** bent on capitalism?
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#86 Dec 02 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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90 posts
I don't think he was being selfish...

Getting up to that high a level of crafting is a big accomplishment, and not a lot of people have done it so far.
Since he is one of only a few providers of a service, he certainly should expect to be paid a premium for those services. It's basic supply and demand, really. He may (and you should) already realize that as the number of high ranked crafters fills out, the value of his service will decrease since there will be more competition... He needs to make his profit while he can.

Yes, it kinda sucks when you have the materials to have something made and can't get the price you were expecting for it... but it could be worse, at least you could find someone to put it together for you.

My advice would be, for now, if you run into the situation again ask yourself how much you really want/need the item...

If you REALLY want it: bite the bullet and pay what they're asking, it's only gil/shards after all.
If you don't really need it: tell them thanks but no thanks and walk away, you'll find someone else later.
#87 Dec 03 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
AilysFoxglove wrote:


If you REALLY want it: bite the bullet and pay what they're asking, it's only gil/shards after all.
If you don't really need it: tell them thanks but no thanks and walk away, you'll find someone else later.


I think this comment really says it all.
There's always nice crafters as well who aren't bitter about wasting so much time just to hit high levels a bit faster than others (heheh)

Oh and imo the comparisons to real life situations is a bit stupid... it takes years to become a good baker and besides the cake is a lie anyway so don't buy it!!!!!

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#88 Dec 03 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Good
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7,106 posts
Quote:
It really saddens me how many people are only out to make a buck.

It saddens me how many people feel entitled to benefit from other people's hard work.

Asking for help is fine. Even expecting help is often reasonable. But, demanding it? Unimpressive.
#89 Dec 03 2010 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
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108 posts
I never accept things free, only give them. I don't craft much but when someone crafts for me I don't accept the trade without giving something in return, usually shards. Even if they offer it free, forget about it!

As a DoL an hour of play can get 10s of thousands of gil and lots of SP thanks to Sweat of Brow and Kings Yield. But what does an hour of crafting get people? Especially if they are higher level crafters, they have to spend money or time buying and collecting shards before they can even sit down and grind. I know a mid-40s level Weaver who grinds for a week just so she can spend 1 day grinding.

And if she makes me something, I'm supposed to accept it for free? Who am I kidding?!

Shards talk. Who wants gil? I pay Earth/Wind clusters to higher level DoW/DoM so they can tank while I venture collecting mats in Grade 5 areas. 500 shards pays for 1 HOUR.

Chew on that. This is reality.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 7:41am by jwhite1083
#90 Dec 03 2010 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder how much money do the different types of crafters have? I'm willing to bet that those who don't charge for a synth are sitting on a pile of gil, and those that do are much poorer than others. Although there are probably exceptions to this as well.
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#91 Dec 03 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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89 posts
I think its a little less about demanding a service than just friendly play.

Crafting 3 bows takes what? Minutes. What possible harm is there for doing it for free? Maybe he even get some SP out of it! Which may i add he doesnt pay the mats for and so is free SP.

Myself have been on the boat and watched a crafter just craft i sent him/her a /tell asking what shards they use, wind (suprise) so opened trade and gave 100 Shards.

Why? I wasnt using them so why not?

Ok its only 100 shards so its not mega gil or anything but why do people need to be bought to help others? when the effort is minimal?

Next time someone asks for "help" or a "service" think this... Do i have a reason to say no?

Im not saying do it all for free but at the same does helping someone need to be a reason to try and make as much gil as you can?
#92 Dec 03 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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782 posts
Quote:
I wonder how much money do the different types of crafters have? I'm willing to bet that those who don't charge for a synth are sitting on a pile of gil, and those that do are much poorer than others. Although there are probably exceptions to this as well.


I think you got this completely backward. The rich don't get rich by giving things away.
#93 Dec 03 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Gadhelyn wrote:
I wonder how much money do the different types of crafters have? I'm willing to bet that those who don't charge for a synth are sitting on a pile of gil, and those that do are much poorer than others. Although there are probably exceptions to this as well.


im an alchemist with 26mil gil i earned off leveling...
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#94 Dec 03 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think you got this completely backward. The rich don't get rich by giving things away.


I beg to differ, here is why-

Crafter A is a mean crafter he/she has HUGE fangs, pointy ears an evil snarl and an unibrow, because of this he charges 100,000 gil per synth.

Crafter B is a nice crafter, he/she has lovely hair, silky skin and is great sexually and charges only 1000 gil per synth.

100,000 people need an item crafted, with the info (on prices) above all 100,000 will go to Crafter B, making the total gil earned

Crafter A - 0
Crafter B - 100,000,000 gil


Also lets say Crafter B charges 0, he does for free and gets free SP so he doesnt buy as much mats so saves himself money and makes friends who might respond with discounted mats etc

Crafter A - 0
Crafter B - 0 BUT saves gil and makes friends


Obv this is a black and white situation but you get my point, At the end of the day the "go to crafters" will all be cheaper and friendlier than the others. (also hoped this post lightens this topic up a bit, everyone quit your ******** about X Y and Z and discuss stuff)

Edited/added - Crafter A also has glowing red eyes

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 2:13pm by wallace87
#95 Dec 03 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Last night, I got all of the mats needed to make 3 Elm Velocity Bows. The scale glue alone was 30k each. The difficult part was finding a carpenter that was 40+, so I went to Gridania and waited in the guild. A level 42 started crafting in there and I sent him a message asking him if he'd help me build my bow. After asking me what type of bow and what I was willing to pay him, I told him it was the velocity bow and that I had gil or shards/crystals for trade. I told him that I'd give him 60 wind shards if he'd make me 2 bows.

He told me that it wasn't worth his time and that I would have to pay him 300 wind shards per synth!

I looked up the common price for this bow using the Yellow
1. Gremlin Bazaar app and found that it sold for 100-200k gil
2. I already spent 30k gill for each scale glue
3. 300 wind shard @ 200 gill each = 50,000 gil

Do you guys feel like this is being selfish, or his right to charge that much per synth?


Well if it's a rank 40+ synth, you've gotta look at how many people can actually make it. When you look at what this person is probably thinking, it might be "this is one of those synths that's better for me to make gil, I'm not about to give that up right now". Also, if you ask someone to make you three of the same weapon, it may look suspicious. You only really need one, so they might think you're going to sell the extras, or sell them all, thus impeding on their market.
#96 Dec 03 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Default
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782 posts
Quote:

I beg to differ, here is why-


All you've done is provide an example from the econ 101 text book on supply and demand.

There is NO WAY to get rich if you give sh*t away. You HAVE to sell things for more than your cost otherwise you go broke, not rich.

Lastly, until you've covered your expenses you are STILL not making money.

I could sell item X that costs 400k to make for 500k. But if I have to spend 10m to obtain the skill to make that 100k I'm not making anything from it until I sell item number 101 where I will have FINALLY made a grand total of 100k.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 1:26pm by windexy
#97 Dec 03 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
18 posts
60 shards as tip? That's what... 12k? And in return you have 2 bows in worth in total of about 400k? Think about it man. I wonder how much you tip at restaurants >.>
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#98 Dec 03 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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89 posts
Quote:
All you've done is provide an example from the econ 101 text book on supply and demand.

There is NO WAY to get rich if you give sh*t away. You HAVE to sell things for more than your cost otherwise you go broke, not rich.


No if you read my whole post I go on to tell you about 0 gil prices.
Your thinking to simply about the situation, there is more to the financial side of things than profit.

Any company will tell you that customer service and customer loyalty > one off profits.


Now let me go on to say, in this game you have 2 types of crafters.

Crafter A - A guy who wants to hit R50 because he want a R50 craft so he can make the stuff and repair stuff etc

Crafter B - A guy who is only after profit.

Chances are crafter A is ok with breaking even or even making a loss so is ok selling stuff cheap to get gil faster or to charge 0 and get free SP (as described before)

Regardless of what Crafter B wants or does, he has to compete with Crafter A.

In the real world the ideas and companys that start selling for small profit etc make it big in the long run more often than the ones selling for big one shot profit.

But this all goes off topic to what my original question was.

WHY NOT HELP IF ITS IN YOUR POWER, COST 0 AND TAKES NEXT TO NO TIME!?

Regardless of anything else, why not?

Also stop editing your post with a MASSIVE chunk of extra stuff. The mats cost 10million? or 1million or 5million w/e it dont matter. As i have said (read above) lower your costs, farm the mats instead then cost = 0 so then give it away for 1,000 gil. You just made infinite profit.

Also your going off topic, the crafter costs where 0 he didnt need to buy anything, the guy went and got all the mats himself. It comes down to helping people.

You have people who wont do it.
and
People who will help.

I am willing to help others, i give away things without being asked and all sorts and I still have all the gear I need and millions sitting around doing nothing.


Oh and another note, its not supply and demand but that's cool.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 2:32pm by wallace87

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 2:35pm by wallace87

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 2:36pm by wallace87
#99 Dec 03 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
windexy wrote:
Quote:

I beg to differ, here is why-


All you've done is provide an example from the econ 101 text book on supply and demand.

There is NO WAY to get rich if you give sh*t away. You HAVE to sell things for more than your cost otherwise you go broke, not rich.

Lastly, until you've covered your expenses you are STILL not making money.

I could sell item X that costs 400k to make for 500k. But if I have to spend 10m to obtain the skill to make that 100k I'm not making anything from it until I sell item number 101 where I will have FINALLY made a grand total of 100k.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 1:26pm by windexy


Here's a somewhat more realistic example if it helps you. This actually occurred on Rabanastre server and is an excellent example of people charging less and making more money. Iron Lances, I post the recipe (I actually did the comment is still up there) on FFXIV Pro, next day one person was selling them for 1 million; aproximate cost of materials about 100k at the time. Two days later he lowers the price to half a million and I quote "Because no one was buying any because the price was ridiculous and figured if they waited till someone else was making them the price would drop." After making nothing at 1 million he sells around 25 for a half million each; netting aproximately a hundred million. Certainly not by "giving things away" but charging a more reasonable price will get you more sales than gouging. Also I am not sure about other crafters or players, but when I "give" things away or craft for "free" people tend to give me deals on materials, crystals and such, or in some cases just give them to me for free. I understand that I am not super far into the grind yet but I believe this mentality will hold true later. I mean I have enough buffalo leather and hide that people gave me for free to hit 30ish leatherworker if I took the time to sit down and synth it all. It's all about the back scratching.
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#100 Dec 03 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Any company will tell you that customer service and customer loyalty > one off profits.


Yup, costs far less to keep a customer than to make a new one. But once you start costing them they will drop you as quick as possible.


Quote:
As i have said (read above) lower your costs, farm the mats instead then cost = 0 so then give it away for 1,000 gil. You just made infinite profit.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Quote:

WHY NOT HELP IF ITS IN YOUR POWER, COST 0 AND TAKES NEXT TO NO TIME!?

Regardless of anything else, why not?


Because you can't seem, to understand this:

Quote:
The mats cost 10million? or 1million or 5million w/e it dont matter. As i have said (read above) lower your costs, farm the mats instead then cost = 0


If it costs 10m to rank up to 50 and your selling an item for 100k profit you will not make any money until you sell 101 of those items. In reality the cost to 50 is QUITE a bit more, meaning it will take many more sales to finally get above the profit line.
Quote:

I am willing to help others, i give away things without being asked and all sorts and I still have all the gear I need and millions sitting around doing nothing.


Than you are not rich, you may have a few mil, but the people who are making the most off their crafts are rich.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 1:50pm by windexy

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 1:53pm by windexy
#101 Dec 03 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Default
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782 posts
Quote:
Here's a somewhat more realistic example if it helps you. This actually occurred on Rabanastre server and is an excellent example of people charging less and making more money. Iron Lances, I post the recipe (I actually did the comment is still up there) on FFXIV Pro, next day one person was selling them for 1 million; aproximate cost of materials about 100k at the time. Two days later he lowers the price to half a million and I quote "Because no one was buying any because the price was ridiculous and figured if they waited till someone else was making them the price would drop." After making nothing at 1 million he sells around 25 for a half million each; netting aproximately a hundred million. Certainly not by "giving things away" but charging a more reasonable price will get you more sales than gouging. Also I am not sure about other crafters or players, but when I "give" things away or craft for "free" people tend to give me deals on materials, crystals and such, or in some cases just give them to me for free. I understand that I am not super far into the grind yet but I believe this mentality will hold true later. I mean I have enough buffalo leather and hide that people gave me for free to hit 30ish leatherworker if I took the time to sit down and synth it all. It's all about the back scratching.


Like the other guy, your just demonstrating supply and demand. Until they cover all the costs in getting up to level you will not be making a profit.

I'm not arguing for selling things for less, I'm arguing against the posters saying you shouldn't charge anything. This was what I originally quoted maybe you two should re-read it.
Quote:

I wonder how much money do the different types of crafters have? I'm willing to bet that those who don't charge for a synth are sitting on a pile of gil, and those that do are much poorer than others. Although there are probably exceptions to this as well.


Notice it says DONT CHARGE, not charge less.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 1:48pm by windexy
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