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I met a terribly selfish Carpenter.....Follow

#102 Dec 03 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
Here's a somewhat more realistic example if it helps you. This actually occurred on Rabanastre server and is an excellent example of people charging less and making more money. Iron Lances, I post the recipe (I actually did the comment is still up there) on FFXIV Pro, next day one person was selling them for 1 million; aproximate cost of materials about 100k at the time. Two days later he lowers the price to half a million and I quote "Because no one was buying any because the price was ridiculous and figured if they waited till someone else was making them the price would drop." After making nothing at 1 million he sells around 25 for a half million each; netting aproximately a hundred million. Certainly not by "giving things away" but charging a more reasonable price will get you more sales than gouging. Also I am not sure about other crafters or players, but when I "give" things away or craft for "free" people tend to give me deals on materials, crystals and such, or in some cases just give them to me for free. I understand that I am not super far into the grind yet but I believe this mentality will hold true later. I mean I have enough buffalo leather and hide that people gave me for free to hit 30ish leatherworker if I took the time to sit down and synth it all. It's all about the back scratching.


Like the other guy, your just demonstrating supply and demand. Until they cover all the costs in getting up to level you will not be making a profit.

I'm not arguing for selling things for less, I'm arguing against the posters saying you shouldn't charge anything. This was what I originally quoted maybe you two should re-read it.
Quote:

I wonder how much money do the different types of crafters have? I'm willing to bet that those who don't charge for a synth are sitting on a pile of gil, and those that do are much poorer than others. Although there are probably exceptions to this as well.


Notice it says DONT CHARGE, not charge less.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 1:48pm by windexy



I think alot of people assume crafters can actualy sell everything they make while leveling too..

lets face facts, am i gonna level off an item that takes 4-6 materials, that i can sell for x2 what it cost to make, at the cost of leveling at half speed.
or am i going to level off an item that takes a single material, and no shards. that i have to vendor for a loss, but can do much much faster.

the answer is obvious, you take the quicker road. granted some areas of synthing(alchemy 12-27 on shards) are actualy done at a huge profit if done right, but most areas of leveling your craft take a ton of gil, that you see no return on at all if any.

Now your right, some crafters are rich, why, because they leveled, and sold off items no one could make yet. They also did so at an inflated price.

But point in fact, if I am leveling, and you want something done, you better make it worth my while. Alot of people do not want to interupt what they are doing, to meet someone elses needs.


On the same token, maybe we can consider the OP selfish and greedy for not wanting to pay the crafter what his time was worth? It does kind of go both ways, and youll have the same argument of people siding with or against that argumenet you have as calling the cfarfter the greedy one.
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#103 Dec 03 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
windexy wrote:
Quote:
Here's a somewhat more realistic example if it helps you. This actually occurred on Rabanastre server and is an excellent example of people charging less and making more money. Iron Lances, I post the recipe (I actually did the comment is still up there) on FFXIV Pro, next day one person was selling them for 1 million; aproximate cost of materials about 100k at the time. Two days later he lowers the price to half a million and I quote "Because no one was buying any because the price was ridiculous and figured if they waited till someone else was making them the price would drop." After making nothing at 1 million he sells around 25 for a half million each; netting aproximately a hundred million. Certainly not by "giving things away" but charging a more reasonable price will get you more sales than gouging. Also I am not sure about other crafters or players, but when I "give" things away or craft for "free" people tend to give me deals on materials, crystals and such, or in some cases just give them to me for free. I understand that I am not super far into the grind yet but I believe this mentality will hold true later. I mean I have enough buffalo leather and hide that people gave me for free to hit 30ish leatherworker if I took the time to sit down and synth it all. It's all about the back scratching.


Like the other guy, your just demonstrating supply and demand. Until they cover all the costs in getting up to level you will not be making a profit.

I'm not arguing for selling things for less, I'm arguing against the posters saying you shouldn't charge anything. This was what I originally quoted maybe you two should re-read it.
Quote:

I wonder how much money do the different types of crafters have? I'm willing to bet that those who don't charge for a synth are sitting on a pile of gil, and those that do are much poorer than others. Although there are probably exceptions to this as well.


Notice it says DONT CHARGE, not charge less.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 1:48pm by windexy


Again you missed the latter half of the post. My costs of grinding are non existant. I haven't purchased an item or shard for grinding ever because when I give things to people (without asking for anything in return) they tend to remember it when I am looking for things to grind with.
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#104 Dec 03 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Again you missed the latter half of the post. My costs of grinding are non existant. I haven't purchased an item or shard for grinding ever because when I give things to people (without asking for anything in return) they tend to remember it when I am looking for things to grind with


Yeah I noticed you addressed this in the second half. Was just about to make a comment on that =P
#105 Dec 03 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yup, costs far less to keep a customer than to make a new one. But once you start costing them they will drop you as quick as possible.


Drop you? No they don't! Its called Loyalty! I'm loyal to Crafter B because Crafter A is a ****. But oh wait Crafter Cs items are 500gil less all the time!

/tell Crafter B yo dude this guy is undercutting you
/tell FROM crafter B Oh thats why no new people are coming thanks :) /price 1000gil

The above is literally a FACTUAL example of how things work. Don't argue it
it
is
F A C T,
thats one of the goals of customer loyalty, getting THEM to tell YOU about the competiton, its then reduces the.....ready? OPPORTUNITY COST of your time. So you spend more time crafting and less time scouting the competition. And that is where Opportunity cost is supposed to be spoken about.



You completely randomly plastered this on your post for what purpose? Reducing costs is that. And farming mats in this game isnt going to be an Opportunity cost as your getting EXP and SP for your battle craft which you would do anyway, so that makes it a future investment.

Quote:
Because you can't seem, to understand this:


Please finish your sentences otherwise I:

Quote:
If it costs 10m to rank up to 50 and your selling an item for 100k profit you will not make any money until you sell 101 of those items


Ok firstly it doesn't get called profit until you make profit so your selling for a loss until the 101st then you say your selling for 100k profit after you break even.

However: This case in question the crafter has one cost! TIME. However he will get SP and EXP but he didn't pay for it so he is SAVING money and in SAVING he is MAKING money. Now ok its not going to be 500 SP etc but its the small that makes up the big.

And the final example and I will make this simple.

This carpenter, he can charge 300 (I think) and get told NO, how ever accepting the 30 means he would have got the 90 Shards instead of 0.

/tell from carpenter tell your friends about me :)

So then Archer boy here goes and tells his friends in the Archer guild about Mr Carpenter and he has another 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, bows to make.

He is getting SP, EXP and shards, but wait!!! He is getting SP and EXP so he doesn't need the shards or as many so every future synth is CHEAPER as his COSTS are LOWER and he doesn't need to do as many to hit 50 so any extra items can be turned into profit or sold etc.
#106 Dec 03 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Default
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Also not one person has answered me-

WHY NOT HELP?!

Oh and stop randomly plastering eco terms on page, its not supply and demand at all. If you REALLY want I can try and smash out a quick few graphs to illustrate what supply and demand is.
#107 Dec 03 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
Oh a graph? I like them to be colorful, lots and lots of colors! Throw in a pie chart in there if you can too, with lots of colors.
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#108 Dec 03 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Oh a graph? I like them to be colorful, lots and lots of colors! Throw in a pie chart in there if you can too, with lots of colors


What colours would you like? I shall make one for you.

Also what type of filling in the pie?
#109 Dec 03 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Also not one person has answered me-
WHY NOT HELP?!

Because charity is a kindness, not an obligation. I really wonder how often in your daily life you stop to help a total stranger. Often? Maybe. Every single time you possibly could? I doubt it. I'd put a lot more stock in your "WHY NOT?!" analysis if you spent all your free time helping people. But, you clearly don't, or you wouldn't have time to post in this thread. You've clearly taken at least a small part of your day for yourself, when you could potentially be out there helping someone instead. I mean, WHY NOT HELP?!, right? But, you're not out there helping. You're on a computer making posts about your hobby. And you probably don't feel any guilt about that, because we generally don't expect people to endlessly help everyone they can just because they have nothing more important to do.

Yeah, I can afford to give a dollar to the guy on the street who asks me for it. I can even afford to give it to the first ten guys who ask me for it. But, I can't afford to give a dollar to every single person who asks me for a dollar. Sometimes even the most generous person has to say "You know what, I've done enough today." And, because when you pester a total stranger to help you with his skill or expertise you don't know who else he's helped today, you don't get to be butthurt if he turns you down.
#110 Dec 03 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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wallace87 wrote:
Quote:
Oh a graph? I like them to be colorful, lots and lots of colors! Throw in a pie chart in there if you can too, with lots of colors


What colours would you like? I shall make one for you.

Also what type of filling in the pie?



I read all your posts and sorry you don't know sh*t.

First off you picked two extremes. Most crafters craft stuff for a reasonable fee. These people will always make more money then the person doing it for free. Most people are not retarded cheap asses and value the notion that time is money.

I charge a reasonable fee for synths, not 0 and not 100K. But 10-30K depending on the synth. I guarantee I am richer then any non-existant magical rich crafter that doesn't charge anything that you seem to be pulling out of your ***.

You can still be nice and not do everything for free. And most of the people who do synths for free are casuals who have low crafts anyways. See, most of the people who have grinded 8 hours a day to get 40+ crafts actually value their time and grinded for the purpose of making money. I've interacted with many 40+ crafters on my server, and I guarantee all of them have more gil then whatever retarded scenarios you are pulling out of your ***. And you know what, 95% are very nice, a person doesn't become evil all of a sudden because they expect payment for their time. I bet there are very few people who all of a sudden hate someone for asking a reasonable fee to take time to craft something, and for the dumb people that would, most crafters wouldn't want to deal with them anyways.

If someone wants to craft for free fine, no ones stopping them. Expecting people to craft for free or even coming up with fake scenarios where this free crafter is someone making more money is completely ridiculous and shows that you know nothing about this game or a real economy. I'm sorry, most people don't run a charity service, especially when they know the person they are servicing can make more gil on a level 1 character in 10 minutes then the amount they are tipping.

I have a high level crafter, adventurer, and gatherer. I know how easy it is for non-crafters to make gil also. Now that I don't use yew logs, I make 400-500K for one 3-4 hour gathering session selling logs. So naturally if a botanist wanted a new hatchet crafted, it's not unreasonable to expect payment after he just sold millions worth of logs to Carpenters while gaining SP. People who craft for free either don't care about gil and just want to be nice, and I don't deny that there are a few out there, or they are just being taken advantage of and don't realize it. In the 1 hour I spent grinding crafts and wasting gil, an adventurer grinds stuff and gains shards and materials. So it's only fair that you charge something for your services if you lose gil when grinding and adventurers gain gil when grinding. That charge is in the form of tips and premiums on gear. You are naive, and frankly the world and thus the in-game world with real people doesn't revolve around this fairy tale notion where everything is free and everyone gives each other a reach around.


Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 4:30pm by Strifexx
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#111 Dec 03 2010 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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wallace87 wrote:
I think its a little less about demanding a service than just friendly play.

Crafting 3 bows takes what? Minutes. What possible harm is there for doing it for free? Maybe he even get some SP out of it! Which may i add he doesnt pay the mats for and so is free SP.

Myself have been on the boat and watched a crafter just craft i sent him/her a /tell asking what shards they use, wind (suprise) so opened trade and gave 100 Shards.

Why? I wasnt using them so why not?

Ok its only 100 shards so its not mega gil or anything but why do people need to be bought to help others? when the effort is minimal?

Next time someone asks for "help" or a "service" think this... Do i have a reason to say no?

Im not saying do it all for free but at the same does helping someone need to be a reason to try and make as much gil as you can?


I have to repeat myself again: "The point is not to make buck out of something. The point is the guy has the right to choose between making a buck or do it as a favour. Do you think people in third world country starving to death should just work in sweat shop for free or they are instant asses because they are greedy and **** bent on capitalism?"

Minimal effort or not, no person is an instant *** just because you disagree with the person's price. Oh god, why can't people get that simple thing?

wallace87 wrote:
Quote:
I think you got this completely backward. The rich don't get rich by giving things away.


I beg to differ, here is why-

Crafter A is a mean crafter he/she has HUGE fangs, pointy ears an evil snarl and an unibrow, because of this he charges 100,000 gil per synth.

Crafter B is a nice crafter, he/she has lovely hair, silky skin and is great sexually and charges only 1000 gil per synth.

100,000 people need an item crafted, with the info (on prices) above all 100,000 will go to Crafter B, making the total gil earned

Crafter A - 0
Crafter B - 100,000,000 gil


Also lets say Crafter B charges 0, he does for free and gets free SP so he doesnt buy as much mats so saves himself money and makes friends who might respond with discounted mats etc

Crafter A - 0
Crafter B - 0 BUT saves gil and makes friends


Obv this is a black and white situation but you get my point, At the end of the day the "go to crafters" will all be cheaper and friendlier than the others. (also hoped this post lightens this topic up a bit, everyone quit your ******** about X Y and Z and discuss stuff)

Edited/added - Crafter A also has glowing red eyes

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 2:13pm by wallace87


Except Crafter A is the ONLY person can craft it at the moment (or at least majority, say 80%, of the server perceive it to be), that's the sole reason why he charge it 100,000 gil per synth.
Result:
Crafter A - 8,000,000,000
Crafter B - 20,000,000
Have you ever seen a r20 crafter ask for 100,000 gil per synth? Never. Simple, he doesn't perceive himself nor do other perceive him to be in the position for such an offer. The ONLY REASON why people make such an offer, is that they have a high probability of getting paid for such an offer on daily basis. Nobody are dumb, we are all more intelligent than animal.
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#112 Dec 03 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Default
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Caesura wrote:
Quote:
It really saddens me how many people are only out to make a buck.

It saddens me how many people feel entitled to benefit from other people's hard work.

Asking for help is fine. Even expecting help is often reasonable. But, demanding it? Unimpressive.


And where exactly did he DEMAND anything? Please, show me where in his posts he demanded anything. The truth is he didn't. Learn to ******* read. He kindly asked if a crafter would help him out by making a couple synths for him. He even offered a reward. Was it a huge, ridiculous reward? No. But it's not like 60 shards is nothing. If ~20k gil isn't good enough for someone for a couple minutes of crafting, they are selfish. And anyone who can't see that is selfish too.

Btw, 300 wind shards per synth on my server is the equivalent of over 100k gil. If the bows sold for 100k gil each, he's asking for MORE money than the item is worth. How the **** can anyone possibly say that's not being selfish or greedy?
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#113 Dec 03 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Default
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Khornette wrote:
wallace87 wrote:
I think its a little less about demanding a service than just friendly play.

Crafting 3 bows takes what? Minutes. What possible harm is there for doing it for free? Maybe he even get some SP out of it! Which may i add he doesnt pay the mats for and so is free SP.

Myself have been on the boat and watched a crafter just craft i sent him/her a /tell asking what shards they use, wind (suprise) so opened trade and gave 100 Shards.

Why? I wasnt using them so why not?

Ok its only 100 shards so its not mega gil or anything but why do people need to be bought to help others? when the effort is minimal?

Next time someone asks for "help" or a "service" think this... Do i have a reason to say no?

Im not saying do it all for free but at the same does helping someone need to be a reason to try and make as much gil as you can?


I have to repeat myself again: "The point is not to make buck out of something. The point is the guy has the right to choose between making a buck or do it as a favour. Do you think people in third world country starving to death should just work in sweat shop for free or they are instant asses because they are greedy and **** bent on capitalism?"

Minimal effort or not, no person is an instant *** just because you disagree with the person's price. Oh god, why can't people get that simple thing?


Awesome comparison! Lets compare something in a game to people starving in third world countries. That's truly an equal comparison there. Not to mention the fact that in a third world country a lot those people don't have a choice. The crafter had a choice. He chose to be a greedy ***. What's your next comparison going to be about, the Holocaust? Hiroshima?
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#114 Dec 03 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Khornette wrote:
wallace87 wrote:
I think its a little less about demanding a service than just friendly play.

Crafting 3 bows takes what? Minutes. What possible harm is there for doing it for free? Maybe he even get some SP out of it! Which may i add he doesnt pay the mats for and so is free SP.

Myself have been on the boat and watched a crafter just craft i sent him/her a /tell asking what shards they use, wind (suprise) so opened trade and gave 100 Shards.

Why? I wasnt using them so why not?

Ok its only 100 shards so its not mega gil or anything but why do people need to be bought to help others? when the effort is minimal?

Next time someone asks for "help" or a "service" think this... Do i have a reason to say no?

Im not saying do it all for free but at the same does helping someone need to be a reason to try and make as much gil as you can?


I have to repeat myself again: "The point is not to make buck out of something. The point is the guy has the right to choose between making a buck or do it as a favour. Do you think people in third world country starving to death should just work in sweat shop for free or they are instant asses because they are greedy and **** bent on capitalism?"

Minimal effort or not, no person is an instant *** just because you disagree with the person's price. Oh god, why can't people get that simple thing?


Awesome comparison! Lets compare something in a game to people starving in third world countries. That's truly an equal comparison there. Not to mention the fact that in a third world country a lot those people don't have a choice. The crafter had a choice. He chose to be a greedy ***. What's your next comparison going to be about, the Holocaust? Hiroshima?


I have to repeat myself again and again and again. Because he has a choice, and he chose the different choice from you, he's a greedy ***. The people in 3rd world country also has a choice, starve and not be a greedy ***, or be a greedy *** and live.

No, you don't want to give him a choice. No, he doesn't have a choice in your own belief. He has to do what you deem fit, or he's a greedy ***.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:03pm by Khornette

BartelX wrote:
Caesura wrote:
Quote:
It really saddens me how many people are only out to make a buck.

It saddens me how many people feel entitled to benefit from other people's hard work.

Asking for help is fine. Even expecting help is often reasonable. But, demanding it? Unimpressive.


And where exactly did he DEMAND anything? Please, show me where in his posts he demanded anything. The truth is he didn't. Learn to @#%^ing read. He kindly asked if a crafter would help him out by making a couple synths for him. He even offered a reward. Was it a huge, ridiculous reward? No. But it's not like 60 shards is nothing. If ~20k gil isn't good enough for someone for a couple minutes of crafting, they are selfish. And anyone who can't see that is selfish too.

Btw, 300 wind shards per synth on my server is the equivalent of over 100k gil. If the bows sold for 100k gil each, he's asking for MORE money than the item is worth. How the @#%^ can anyone possibly say that's not being selfish or greedy?


See, you're missing the point. Value is perspective, you think this is fair, others don't think so. Like I've said before, stores give discount and store don't. So stores don't give discount are being selfish or greedy? Just because you disagree with someone else's belief of value, you label them an ***.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:07pm by Khornette

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:08pm by Khornette
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#115 Dec 03 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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The sense of entitlement some people carry around with them boggles the mind.

If I'm hanging out at the armorer's guild in LL smashing out Iron Barbut Visors (amg haetz them) and someone comes along and asks me to stop what I'm doing and craft them a copper barbut, I'm well within my rights to flat out refuse. And if they want to label me as selfish, greedy, mean-spirited, or whatever delicious slight they feel like lobbing my way, that's fine. At the end of the day it was my time and "effort" that went into my DoH rank(s) and it's my time in the game to decide how I want to spend it.

Period.

Nobody gets to tell me how I "should" spend my time, and that includes telling me that if I don't spend my time making gear for other people upon request that I'm lacking as a human being.

Maybe I've got a goal in mind and a limited amount of time to achieve it. Maybe I'm working off the tail end of a facility buff and I don't want to waste it waiting around for someone to get their **** together and dig through their inventory for the mats they have and oh ya I couldn't find <x> do you have any? no? kk hold on lemme go find <x> where do you think I can find it what market ward market wards suck I hate market wards what about a bazaar can't you just make it for me how many do you need I'll give you 3 wind shards to make it for me oh also can you make <y> I've been looking for it for ages oh you can? great what do you need to make that? do you have the mats lolol sorry LS chat is funny tonight oh phone brb kk hold on ready what was it you needed again?

"But Aurelius," you say, "we're talking about someone who said they'd only do it for lots of SHARDS!!"

So what? If I'm in the middle of something and you want me to stop what I'm doing to help you out, I might just highball a price to get you to go away. It's a win-win for me. Either you go away (regardless of what you think of me) or I get something that makes me feel like it was worth my time to change gears and take care of business for you.

Normally when someone offers a high price like that for something and you say no, they aren't disappointed. Five minutes after the fact they've probably already forgotten about the whole exchange.

My time is worth to me what I say it is worth to me and if you don't want to pay, I'm not going to hate you. I'm just not going to give you my time. I travel all over handing off free mats and goodies to LS mates on a fairly regular basis just to be a sport and if a perfect stranger catches me at the right time I can be equally as generous with them. If you catch me at a bad time you're going to pay or you're going to look elsewhere. That's all there is to it.
#116 Dec 03 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hehe..

Why do some of you not see from the the crafter's perspective?

He could be in a rush to finish his errands and do something else.
He could be selling those bows you see on YG.
He is not looking for business.
He could have a steady demand of synth at 60k per already.

Remember, you are not bargaining in a store, you are grabbing a guy off the street when he's doing his own thing.


Also, do some of you not understand demand and supply? You learn it in high school and probably understand the concept in grade school. Demand and supply determines the price, not the time the crafter takes to synth, not the material and not the cost of gathering.

There is low number of supply of high rank crafters, there is a huge demand in high rank crafters, therefore price of a synth is high.

In the real world, people would see this as an opportunity and start new firms to take a cut in the profit. Which will increase supply till economic profit is 0. This is what is happening, people are ranking up because they see this profit. If you think it's a high and unfair price, do it yourself, rank up and craft it. If you don't want to spend the effort then you'll have to spend more time searching for a crafter, waiting for more high rank crafter or spend the gils.


BartelX wrote:
Btw, 300 wind shards per synth on my server is the equivalent of over 100k gil. If the bows sold for 100k gil each, he's asking for MORE money than the item is worth. How the @#%^ can anyone possibly say that's not being selfish or greedy?


It doesn't matter what the bow cost, it's not a concern to the crafter. It is still a synth to him no matter if the final product cost 100M or 1k. Would a technician who fixed cars for $70/h give a discount to a customer car worth around $500 vs a customer with a car worth $100,000? Probably not.



Edit add..

BartelX wrote:
But it's not like 60 shards is nothing. If ~20k gil isn't good enough for someone for a couple minutes of crafting, they are selfish. And anyone who can't see that is selfish too.


I sure hope no one shares your view. Everyone is different, everyone values their own time differently. You seeing 20k gil worth your time doesn't mean I should or everyone should.

How do you determine this 20k is good enough for someone to spend a couple minutes to craft? Because 20k is meaningful with respect to YOU(this is what YOU perceive in YOUR perspective), it is with respect to YOUR bank, YOUR income, YOUR time, YOUR value on gil, YOUR need of gil and how much YOU like doing charity work.

Is it that really hard to see that everyone values things differently?

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 10:50pm by Bozmo
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#117wallace87, Posted: Dec 04 2010 at 11:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As for the douche asking me about me helping others on a day to day basis.
#118 Dec 04 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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wallace87 wrote:

@strifexx

For someone claiming I "know sh*t" Your second chapter on your own personal book of **** shows you don't understand.
The point of examples are not there to show the figures, the 100k isn't the example its the situation, apply what numbers you want, the results will vary slightly yes but in the end the majority of the time will be the same.

Before discussing things with adults please learn what is truly the example.
The example is the situation the numbers are all variables and thus not the example which is being made here.
[/sm][/i]


lol that's funny. The numbers won't vary slightly, are you retarded? You think a scenario where someone charges 100K and someone charges 30K is exactly the same? And no matter what the 0K person always wins.

Obviously you've never taken economics and know nothing about business, and if you want to throw stuff around like "adults" I'm a financial analyst in real life and have taken all the ******** business classes in college. Crafting in this game is a business, and sorry, but incase you didnt know, MMOs do have an economy.

How about you post your characters, massive gil you made from crafting for free, and real world experience if you want to show that you actually know what the **** you're talking about. I'll say it again, everything you've said shows you don't know ****.

Helping someone is one thing, and you could have left it at that, spewing your hippy ******** and actually believing that everyone should not charge and that those crafters are the richest is another thing. There's a reason every person in this thread thinks you're retarded.
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Strife Nii ~ Conjuror 49, Botanist 37, Mining 33, Thaum 32, Culinary 27, Goldsmith 22
#119 Dec 04 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Offering help to people who needed help, like giving food and shelter to homeless, starving people is good, most people will agree with it.

However, offering cheap/free stuff to people who is capable to afford but they just dont want to pay(or pay less), is a totally different story.

Like giving money to the poor people is generous but giving money to random people on street is ..well, irrational.

I hope some people will take this into consideration b4 making another post.
#120wallace87, Posted: Dec 04 2010 at 12:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Strifexx you fail at being able to read.
#121 Dec 04 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Siulang wrote:
Offering help to people who needed help, like giving food and shelter to homeless, starving people is good, most people will agree with it.

However, offering cheap/free stuff to people who is capable to afford but they just dont want to pay(or pay less), is a totally different story.

Like giving money to the poor people is generous but giving money to random people on street is ..well, irrational.

I hope some people will take this into consideration b4 making another post.


So true it isnt even funny

most people just do not want to pay, period

or in some cases, i find it funny when some people are willing to pay 500k for that new piece of gear, instead of paying for repairs on the rest of their gear, then complain they can not afford repairs.


lets face facts, people are not so broke in this game that they canb not afford to shell out 50k to have an item made, or 5k for a repair etc etc
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#122 Dec 04 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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wallace87 wrote:
Strifexx you fail at being able to read.

It's clear you didn't read a single word of my post as all of yours is moaning about things when I stated the opposite.

Go back over the post and I'm sure if you read it you will see just how stupid your post is. I have no need to either defend myself or prove myself to a child who wants to moan about things he cant comprehend because he can't even be bothered to read and decides to make it up as he goes along.

Your post is nothing more than a childish outburst. You have failed to truly read anything posted and have made assumptions and claims that are both not true and again childish.

It is clear that explaining things to you will take far too long and be far to irksome as after two posts you have made it clear your incapable of either discussing or comparing without getting sand firmly placed in the deep dark regions of your ******. Ironically enough a douche needs a douche to stop being a douche.

And there is no way for me to continue really now besides a flaming because I would need many hours to sit down and go through each sentence and what it means with you. Regardless how many people read it and thought "hey this **** wants me to give all my stuff away for free" the ones with a basic intellect will understand "hey this guy is saying lets meet half way, I don't need to ask for 200% profit but at the same time I don't really want to do it for 10%" I understand that as normal things got off topic and 2 or 3 different things were being discussed and it confused you but that's OK, try reading slower next time.


Why would I want to go back and read your retarded posts. It's clear that you don't know what you're talking about with your stupid examples and the fact you still haven't posted that you actually know what you're talking by showing you have high level crafters and practicing what you preach.

It is clear that everyone in this thread thinks you're retarded and it's funny that you think I'm a child. Keep thinking that I'll keep flaming some ****** on the forums. If you actually had intellegent posts this thread wouldn't have turned into lets argue with the ****** wallace87. Maybe you should try writing more clearly and get your head out of your ***.

There's a reason if you browse every page there is people quoting you and basically saying you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about.

I'll shut up if you show that you even have a remote idea of how to play the game, you know by actually having a high level crafter and tons of gil since you obviously know the best way to play this game.

P.S. Want to read something dumb?

wallace87 wrote:
WHY NOT HELP IF ITS IN YOUR POWER, COST 0 AND TAKES NEXT TO NO TIME!?

Regardless of anything else, why not?

Also stop editing your post with a MASSIVE chunk of extra stuff. The mats cost 10million? or 1million or 5million w/e it dont matter. As i have said (read above) lower your costs, farm the mats instead then cost = 0 so then give it away for 1,000 gil. You just made infinite profit.

Also your going off topic, the crafter costs where 0 he didnt need to buy anything, the guy went and got all the mats himself. It comes down to helping people.

You have people who wont do it.
and
People who will help.

I am willing to help others, i give away things without being asked and all sorts and I still have all the gear I need and millions sitting around doing nothing.


Oh and another note, its not supply and demand but that's cool.


That right there was probably the dumbest thing I've read in this entire thread, oh besides your evil crafter story which sounds like some scenario a 1st grader came up with.


Edited, Dec 4th 2010 2:38pm by Strifexx
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#123wallace87, Posted: Dec 04 2010 at 1:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's OK if your not going to go back and reread the posts I would be embarrassed to go back and see how wrong I am if I was in your shoes, but thanks for another completely pointless post showing you still are unable to grasp what has been said.
#124 Dec 04 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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wallace87 wrote:
Quote:
Why would I want to go back and read your retarded posts. It's clear that you don't know what you're talking about with your stupid examples and the fact you still haven't posted that you actually know what you're talking by showing you have high level crafters and practicing what you preach.

It is clear that everyone in this thread thinks you're retarded and it's funny that you think I'm a child. Keep thinking that I'll keep flaming some ****** on the forums. If you actually had intellegent posts this thread wouldn't have turned into lets argue with the ****** wallace87. Maybe you should try writing more clearly and get your head out of your ***.

There's a reason if you browse every page there is people quoting you and basically saying you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about.

I'll shut up if you show that you even have a remote idea of how to play the game, you know by actually having a high level crafter and tons of gil since you obviously know the best way to play this game.


It's OK if your not going to go back and reread the posts I would be embarrassed to go back and see how wrong I am if I was in your shoes, but thanks for another completely pointless post showing you still are unable to grasp what has been said.

I did notice your carpentry and if its you this guy is talking about don't take it as what I was saying was an attack on you, just helping you out bro :)

Edit - Haha your so childish, I find people like you entertaining. You try and flame others but I can't see what purpose there is. It is 100% fully impossible for you to insult me or make my mood change in any way what so over. Your complete lack of comprehension is proof enough time and time again that your not worth anybodies time and the fact you advertise the fact you "go around flaming people" shows your lack of social skills. I really hope your a child because if this is the attitude of an adult well then I will only say I'm sorry for that and I really mean it, you have my pity and by all means go on a rant about how stupid I am and you pity me and so on and so forth its OK, its what I expect you to do but I'll let you go at it make stupid posts and such, you can have whatever small little victory counts in your little world because the points I have made will reach those who have the brain capacity to understand and those like you who don't (and in fact only you) are often shocked by things they don't understand.

As I say, I'm sorry.

Edited, Dec 4th 2010 2:51pm by wallace87


Yea I'm not the guy. I'll take a page from your book and say if you actually read my posts you would see my first one was saying that 6k per synth was too low but I agree 100k is too high and I usually do synths for 10-30K depending on the item.

And if you actually read my posts you would see I already said I'm a financial analyst in real life. Meaning I graduated from a good college and... yep I'm definitely a child. Apparently you don't post on many message boards, flaming retards is one of the most fun things you can do. Don't worry, you don't need to feel sorry for me in RL. I'm actually quite nice when I don't deal with idiots on message boards.

The only thing you "have made will reach" is that you know nothing about this game and any general knowledge about business and the time value of money. Go read your posts again, and I'm still waiting for you to show me how to play the game and how successful you are, can't do it can you? That's what I thought.

Keep posting about how you're feelings don't get hurt, b/c I hope they don't or you'd be a huge crybaby on top of being retarded. I'll continue to flame you while auto-running to horizon to do leves until you actually prove you have some semblance of intelligence. Apparently you're too afraid to show your level 20 characters after telling all the high levels how to play the game.
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#125wallace87, Posted: Dec 04 2010 at 2:58 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) .
#126 Dec 04 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
And where exactly did he DEMAND anything? Please, show me where in his posts he demanded anything. The truth is he didn't. Learn to @#%^ing read.

He had enough of an expectation of inexpensive, on-demand service that not being charged the rate he requested sent him here to make a butthurt post about the "selfish" carpenter who didn't jump to assist him. Frankly, yes, I'm inclined to call his attitude in this regard "demanding." I can't think of a better word to describe the Op's sense of entitlement to immediate, inexpensive crafting service from a total stranger.

*edit* As an aside, I've never been a crafter in any game I've ever played. I played FFXI for years with level 8 Fishing as literally my only "craft" (and, for the non-FFXI players, level 8 represents probably five hours of work, total, over years of playing). But, I've seen enough people level crafts to think that they deserve to be treated better than as roving vending machines. The whole "you can help me why not it costs you nothing don't be selfish" thing makes it sound more like crafting is a fashion choice than the result of hours and hours (and hours) of research and skill-grinding. In my mind, having a high-level crafting skill is not the same as having a cigarette-lighter in your pocket.

Edited, Dec 4th 2010 5:12pm by Caesura
#127 Dec 05 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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Drop you? No they don't! Its called Loyalty! I'm loyal to Crafter B because Crafter A is a ****. But oh wait Crafter Cs items are 500gil less all the time!


Yes as soon as you start COSTING crafter B money he will stop doing business with you. This is what I stated. I am talking about the sellers loyalty to the customer. The relationship does work both ways you know?

Quote:
You completely randomly plastered this on your post for what purpose? R


Because opportunity cost is what you described. Wasting your time farming cheap materials costs you more since you could be making more by spending that time doing more profitable activities.


Quote:

Ok firstly it doesn't get called profit until you make profit so your selling for a loss until the 101st then you say your selling for 100k profit after you break even.


You are quite mistaken. Your still making 100k profit PER item but your not realizeing a profit as a company because your revenue isn't exceeding your total costs. Once you get to this point every sell will realize a profit for the company instead of just taking you closer to the black.

Quote:

This carpenter, he can charge 300 (I think) and get told NO, how ever accepting the 30 means he would have got the 90 Shards instead of 0.

/tell from carpenter tell your friends about me :)


Again, supply and demand. Did you just recently learn of this concept?


Edited, Dec 5th 2010 11:26am by windexy
#128 Dec 05 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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@Manosuke / Arika Sarathas

Quote:
Again you missed the latter half of the post. My costs of grinding are non existant. I haven't purchased an item or shard for grinding ever because when I give things to people (without asking for anything in return) they tend to remember it when I am looking for things to grind with.


This is the best thing I've read so far. I am so glad to find out I am not the only one who is doing this.


Back to the topic. I think the Crafter is neither Selfish nor Greedy because this is a free economy and he is entitled to demand whatever fee he wants in return. There will be plenty of other crafters who will help out with a lower fee or no cost, I am for one who often do that for people and in return sometimes they will give me free materials or repair my stuffs/buying my stuffs.

I think we should all demand SE implement a Reverse AH where buyer can post up customer order request with a specific offer and crafter signed up if they like the deal. Problem solved and fits perfectly well with supply and demand.
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#129 Dec 05 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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In this world, there is such a thing called "potential income" (Same as opportunity cost)

For example, lets say I farmed 8000 shards and never bought a single shard to rank up my craft.

I still used up 8000 shards. Instead of having 1m, I could have 3m. My potential value WAS +2m, if I sold my shards.


So you guys didn't rank up for free at all. Not only that, but dedicated crafters (See: People that are R40+), are NOT battlecraft specialists. They aren't "Fighting with crafting on the side", they are in fact "Crafting with fighting on the side" (if fighting is there at all). With the new patch, guildleve shard rewards are higher, but they're still puny compared to the hundreds and hundreds of synths needed to get to 40+.

Here's a hint:
If you're not buying shards from other people, you're not a dedicated crafter.


Look at ffxivpro. a majority of the famous high level crafters (R40+)'s highest battlecraft is around 20-25. At the very most.

Asking for 300 shards/synth is not unreasonable at all.
#130 Dec 05 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
Smiley: blush oh crap responded in wrong thread

Edited, Dec 5th 2010 9:01pm by Dandruffshampoo
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