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I'm still a little confused about all the hate.Follow

#52 Dec 02 2010 at 4:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
In any case in my opinion crisis core did flesh out a lot of the story, like the war with wutai, the origins of sephiroth, who the **** zack was, the relationship that zack had with aerith, aerith's youth and relationship with tseng etc etc, those where missing in FFVII, if you did the subquest to find out who zack was in FFVII all you got out of it was that he was a soldier, that got gunned down for carrying cloud around, as to the why and how it happened and how did it get to that point, nothing is mentioned in FFVII.


All of this is covered in VII. The only thing it shed light on was Zack's character development. The rest we already knew about and I didn't need to have covered in another game. Angeal & Genesis both are as "WTF" as the entire plot of Dirge.

If you're going to add on to something - I'm going to paraphrase you because it's how I feel - you flesh out the world by adding a lot more "ahh that all makes sense now" rather than add more "WTH is going on here." That's what I mean by our definitions probably differ. Crisis Core didn't add anything (other than insight into Zack as a character - cause all the other characters were basically shells that he interacted with as far as I recall) that I didn't already know or think was covered other than nonsense about additional Nomura characters.

I also disagree with your assessment that the story was not complex or engaging (you knew I would) but I probably won't change any minds by getting into it - unless someone specifically cares that much about my take. I would say "engaging" is really personal preference, but it is easy to defend the "complexity" compared to other games at the time (and prior to it). I honestly can't think of a rival in complexity at that time other than Xenogears - which is also complex to the point of confusing at times (like understanding Cloud/Zack relationship and Seph/Jenova relationship). I guess "convolution" and "complex" are possibly a fine line but I think (as far as JRPG go) FFVII is not the typical "Oh no! World is in danger! Round up the cat/bunny girls and lets get cracking!" It's got a lot more under the surface.

Feel free to disagree with me on that. Many do and that is actually one subject I do get tired of talking about because it usually digresses into the post I'm about to quote.

Quote:
Please stop talking about FFVII, I'm trying to read up on the state of FFXIV and all i hear are people discussing old tired topics


This is an intelligent discussion about the merits (or lack of) a related game which given the contempt (and evidenced by your comment) are far and few between. As long as someone is interested in my opinion (or sharing theirs) on the subject of VII - I will not desist.
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#53 Dec 02 2010 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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cheezer5000 wrote:
So sorry if this has been brought up......but do none of you English players realize that you didn't play ffxi until a year after it was released. Can you imagine how much you would have hated ffxi if you were stuck leveling the base jobs for a year. DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THIS GAME IS GOING TO GET A LOT BETTER AS TIME GOES ON. And I'm sure that by the time of ps3 launch things will be just chipper.

Any other thoughts on this?

Been there done that, everyone who has half a brain should know XI was released to ENG people + EU people well after release.
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#54 Dec 02 2010 at 4:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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You dont understand, it is real simple:
Quote:
if you were stuck leveling the base jobs for a year.

we were not complaining about the jobs

Quote:
DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THIS GAME IS GOING TO GET A LOT BETTER AS TIME GOES ON.

We understand and expect this, however does not excuse having such a low starting point. Going from -5 to +10 is a very rough road.

Quote:
And I'm sure that by the time of ps3 launch things will be just chipper.

This is a poor argument as those who are complaining are PC users. We deserved a more finished product for our money.

While i cannot speak for everyone, the way i see it it is simply because of the following:
SE is not a new company, but is the merge of Square soft and Enix. As such they have a seperate and collective 20+ years of console rpg development experience. this means:
  • no excuse for beta code, it is wrong to release garbage and calling it gold. this is about the crashes, code bugs such as action bar, c0000005 access violations in msvcrt, etc
  • with 20+ years designing interfaces, there is no excuse for the confusing ui
  • also with 20+ years, they should know char advancment well enough. the whole sp issues both before and after the update are not new concepts. they simply should know that people will rush to level and had it right at start.
  • They are alegedly a professional company, they should have had enough market research to know the impact of these issues prior to rushing a release
  • with 8 years of mmo experience, they had alot of the basic user requirements already coded. they could have taken the concepts and modified them for 14. example: they should know that players will flock to major city, such as jueno then white gate. as such a centralized method for buy/selling items is needed, not new concept. I understand they wanted to avoid an AH, for whatever reasons. this does not mean that having to check every player was ever a good idea. this is where common sense and market research comes in. (PS that whole 'ward search' we were supposed to get, well still dont have it yet)

  • There are two parts which i think are ******* people off more then the 'flaws' themselves.
    1) The idea that SE could release this game in the state they did and expect us not to be outraged.
    2) all the people rushing to defend them for releaseing such poor garbage.

    I played ffxi since the ps2 release, and it was better then this. Sure you want to say that they had JP with the game for a year before releasing, and that is fine. this however does not excuse they forgetting everything they learned from the 7 years later, or collective 20years of making final fantasy games.

    The one part i do not understand is why so many players are defending them. Their execs rushed to release a beta, they know they messed up, and are working to fix it. dont defend their poor choices with what may be down the line. as shown with the recent swing of the nerf bat, what comes 'next update' doesnt always mean great ideas...

    I hope they get it working, and expect this to be a better game in the long run. for now, it is a mindless grind and button mashing game with little to no story divided into 5 level segments which are now even more slower to accomplish.

    A diamond in the rough is still of a much lower value then one clean cut and embedded in gold. There is always the chance that they will crack it up...
    #55 Dec 02 2010 at 5:28 AM Rating: Default
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    maxmad wrote:
    Please stop talking about FFVII, I'm trying to read up on the state of FFXIV and all i hear are people discussing old tired topics


    It still suck's hence why we are talking about anything but FFXIV
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    #56 Dec 02 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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    Trouble is no one is considering the facts of what happens to MMOs that are graphically intense. Including FFXIV there were 2 others, both of which failed miserably at launch. Vangaurd was completely unplayable, between the server crashes and all the glitches, no money to fix the problems Vanguard was probably the first and only MMO to completely die.

    AOC was just as bad at launch, however, after a couple of years they turned the game around. SE took a different approach and worked hard on making the servers stable first, although they should of left the game in beta until March.
    Meh, what's done is done. They did accomplish the task of stabilizing the servers.

    What troubles me is there were reviews of a beta on youtube, are you kidding me reviewing a beta of all things. That lead to the bad players of WoW into thier typical QQ fest. I think WoW will ruin MMOs, people are expecting too much from an MMO at launch, much more than a company can deliver.

    You will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER get a polished MMO from day one, I don't care what year it is, because they have had 1 game under their belt doesn't mean the same problems will occur, graphically intense MMOs create new problems.

    The new things they are adding need to have stable servers to handle them. That's why they fixated on them.

    Simply put if you are not patient to handle the growth process of an MMO, then you shouldn't be playing it until it has had 2 years of growth behind it, because nothing prior will please you at all. You can go to another new game at launch and still will have the same disappointments. More than likely this isn't the genre you should be playing.

    Finances drive MMOs, whether developement of a game is ready or not. After 5+ years of spending money into a making a game, and not making any profit, stockholders start to demand to be compensated. That's the way it goes.

    No one here will make you play, as to why people who stopped playing are still attempting to contribute to these forums is mind boggling. Possibly to get attention, who knows. "This game sucks", doesn't tell us or the devs why. As for those us who do enjoy the game and willing to stick it out, will continue to do our part to making this game better. The trolls need to go.

    Trigger is stuffed and mounted you can put the ballbat down.



    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 8:01am by Spyrit178
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    #57 Dec 02 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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    It isn't at least as fun as FFXI was on year 2. And it'd be fine if FFXIV was close, or even far, but it will NEVER be as fun as FFXI, in my opinion.

    Bugs, glitches, driver conflicts...all that can be fixed, and will be fixed. UI lag, that got fixed. What won't be fixed are the details, the little things that made FFXI so charming. The memorable landscapes, the memorable classes. The community. The togetherness. It's all lost, and lost forever. Those sorts of things can't be hotfixed. And not even 5 years from now will these DoW/DoM classes be as fun to play as Dragoon, or Summoner, or Warrior were. And there's no way they're going to reskin the zones and give them more life. "Too much work." SE has learned nothing.

    You know, FFXIV was the only game I've EVER pre-ordered. That's how confident I was in SE. Instead I got a hefty stream of steaming hot **** in my face.
    #58 Dec 02 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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    There is a long long list of reasons why so many experienced gamers really really hate FFXIV. Not need to write all that hate again but I am baffled to see that some ppl still don't understand the hate.

    Learn to read maybe?
    #59 Dec 02 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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    double post, delete me

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 4:47pm by PerrinofSylph
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    #60 Dec 02 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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    cornyboob wrote:
    But the Cutscenes are good and the graphics are on par with FFXI.


    What?
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    #61 Dec 02 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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    Vindrax wrote:
    This is kinda the Godwins law of Final Fantasy but think back to the storyline of FFVII and compare it with this. True FF VII was groundbreaking (and I was twelve and easily amazed) but in terms of epicness we're in different leagues.

    It's funny that you compare the storyline to FFVII's, because I found FFVII's story to be incredibly bland. Overrated, if you will. In fact, I find the idea of a root canal to be more appealing than having to sit through FFVII again.

    Subjective, sure. That's the point, though.

    FFXIV's story is already > FFVII's.

    That said, I can't even remotely see how anyone could think FFVII was the "best" by any stretch of the word. Xenogears was, BY FAR, a better game, in every way. Final Fantasy Tactics' story was enough to make VII's story sound like something a 4 year-old wrote.

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 12:19pm by SoumaKyou
    #62 Dec 02 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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    SoumaKyou wrote:
    . Xenogears was, BY FAR, a better game, in every way. Final Fantasy Tactics' story was enough to make VII's story sound like something a 4 year-old wrote.


    And then came A-2 and it was written for a 4 year old
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    #63 Dec 02 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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    PerrinofSylph wrote:
    SoumaKyou wrote:
    . Xenogears was, BY FAR, a better game, in every way. Final Fantasy Tactics' story was enough to make VII's story sound like something a 4 year-old wrote.


    And then came A-2 and it was written for a 4 year old

    Lol. I never played Advance. I had a feeling they'd ruin the Tactics name.

    Regardless...

    Delita vs Ramza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cloud vs Sephiroth

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 12:39pm by SoumaKyou
    #64 Dec 02 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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    SoumaKyou wrote:
    Lol. I never played Advance. I had a feeling they'd ruin the Tactics name.


    They did a real good job with both games, though I'm personally not a fan of the judge system. The games themselves offered way more tactical depth than War of the Lions, I just felt the target audience with the story was aimed a bit below my age range. I would love a sequel to WotL's, but I would eat up an A3 just as quick.
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    #65 Dec 02 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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    SoumaKyou wrote:
    Vindrax wrote:
    This is kinda the Godwins law of Final Fantasy but think back to the storyline of FFVII and compare it with this. True FF VII was groundbreaking (and I was twelve and easily amazed) but in terms of epicness we're in different leagues.

    It's funny that you compare the storyline to FFVII's, because I found FFVII's story to be incredibly bland. Overrated, if you will. In fact, I find the idea of a root canal to be more appealing than having to sit through FFVII again.

    Subjective, sure. That's the point, though.

    FFXIV's story is already > FFVII's.

    That said, I can't even remotely see how anyone could think FFVII was the "best" by any stretch of the word. Xenogears was, BY FAR, a better game, in every way. Final Fantasy Tactics' story was enough to make VII's story sound like something a 4 year-old wrote.

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 12:19pm by SoumaKyou


    FFVII just had good storytelling methods that made a decent story seem better than it is.

    edit: at least in my opinion

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 1:33pm by XienithSilvercloud
    #66 Dec 02 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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    PerrinofSylph wrote:
    SoumaKyou wrote:
    Lol. I never played Advance. I had a feeling they'd ruin the Tactics name.


    They did a real good job with both games, though I'm personally not a fan of the judge system. The games themselves offered way more tactical depth than War of the Lions, I just felt the target audience with the story was aimed a bit below my age range. I would love a sequel to WotL's, but I would eat up an A3 just as quick.

    That's the main reason I never picked them up. I thought even Square would be hard-pressed to top the twisting story behind Tactics. I don't think I've ever even read a book that had a story as complex and immersive as Tactics. The betrayals, the agony, and the general feel of all the events that lead up to the finale. Tactics had so many twists and turns that at one point, I genuinely didn't know who to trust on my side.
    #67 Dec 02 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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    Kirutaru wrote:
    Quote:
    In any case in my opinion crisis core did flesh out a lot of the story, like the war with wutai, the origins of sephiroth, who the **** zack was, the relationship that zack had with aerith, aerith's youth and relationship with tseng etc etc, those where missing in FFVII, if you did the subquest to find out who zack was in FFVII all you got out of it was that he was a soldier, that got gunned down for carrying cloud around, as to the why and how it happened and how did it get to that point, nothing is mentioned in FFVII.


    All of this is covered in VII. The only thing it shed light on was Zack's character development. The rest we already knew about and I didn't need to have covered in another game. Angeal & Genesis both are as "WTF" as the entire plot of Dirge.

    If you're going to add on to something - I'm going to paraphrase you because it's how I feel - you flesh out the world by adding a lot more "ahh that all makes sense now" rather than add more "WTH is going on here." That's what I mean by our definitions probably differ. Crisis Core didn't add anything (other than insight into Zack as a character - cause all the other characters were basically shells that he interacted with as far as I recall) that I didn't already know or think was covered other than nonsense about additional Nomura characters.

    I also disagree with your assessment that the story was not complex or engaging (you knew I would) but I probably won't change any minds by getting into it - unless someone specifically cares that much about my take. I would say "engaging" is really personal preference, but it is easy to defend the "complexity" compared to other games at the time (and prior to it). I honestly can't think of a rival in complexity at that time other than Xenogears - which is also complex to the point of confusing at times (like understanding Cloud/Zack relationship and Seph/Jenova relationship). I guess "convolution" and "complex" are possibly a fine line but I think (as far as JRPG go) FFVII is not the typical "Oh no! World is in danger! Round up the cat/bunny girls and lets get cracking!" It's got a lot more under the surface.

    Feel free to disagree with me on that. Many do and that is actually one subject I do get tired of talking about because it usually digresses into the post I'm about to quote.

    Quote:
    Please stop talking about FFVII, I'm trying to read up on the state of FFXIV and all i hear are people discussing old tired topics


    This is an intelligent discussion about the merits (or lack of) a related game which given the contempt (and evidenced by your comment) are far and few between. As long as someone is interested in my opinion (or sharing theirs) on the subject of VII - I will not desist.


    Mentioning and covering are two different thing's, They did mention the war with wutai in VII but they dint cover it, they never covered either why tseng was so protective of aerith, i had they idea that he liked it, but after playing Crisis core, my conclusion was that he protected her, since he could not protect zack back then, and i don't know how can you argue that zack was not flesh out by crisis core, all we knew bout him going by FFVII was that he was a soldier first class, owner of the buster sword, that got gunned down for X or Y reason, this is the guy Cloud impersonates, the only other soldier mentioned in FVII besides sephiroth, and he gets no cover what's ever ?

    Also the angeal/genesis thing, while the hole angel wing's **** still got me like WTF <.<, if you played FFVII SOLDIER is a big part of the storyline, and all they came up with, was one member <.< that being sephiroth, and a few flashbacks where zack show up, that is it as far as soldier cover got in FVII a main plot idea in clouds development <.<

    Again the storyline was not "Complex" it was pretty in your face at times, the hole zack/cloud thing perhaps since it wasent required to do that quest and you could miss it, but the hole jenova/sephiroth thing was in your face, i mean they dint even let us find out in a clever way that jenova was not an acient, they just came and said it and that was it, again i'm not saying FFVII is not a good game, it is by all means, it has great gameplay, but storywise is not one of Squaresoft's strongest *********

    Of course thats just my opinion atleast :)
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    #68 Dec 02 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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    PerrinofSylph wrote:
    SoumaKyou wrote:
    Lol. I never played Advance. I had a feeling they'd ruin the Tactics name.


    They did a real good job with both games, though I'm personally not a fan of the judge system. The games themselves offered way more tactical depth than War of the Lions, I just felt the target audience with the story was aimed a bit below my age range. I would love a sequel to WotL's, but I would eat up an A3 just as quick.


    Judge Law for the topic: All posts must be in iambic pentameter.
    Reward: A high-five, bro.

    Seriously, FFTA games were pretty fun but I agree that they really lacked the maturity of the original FFT. I love the tactics style battle system though.
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    #69 Dec 02 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Default
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    The reason for the hate is simple. Idiots.

    Idiots like calling people WoW fanboys for simply pointing out short comings of the game.
    It's odd because so many of these comments that supposed "WoW Fanboys" have stated.

    Have been heard and changes have been put into place to make a better game.

    I remember during beta and launch people complained about the U/I being slow and there're too many nested menus. Idiots would almost always retort with "Go back to WoW if you don't like it."

    Same goes for guild leves and the lack of content. People simply asking for content or commenting on it would get the response quoted above and or "Why does everyone want end game content so quickly?"

    No ones asking for end game they're asking for CONTENT in general. Idiots seem to miss that point and get bent out of shape.

    Basically most idiots will defend the game to the very end no matter how bad it is. This doesn't inspire any change for the game at all. Luckily they're not the majority of the game population.

    That being said there are also idiots on the other side of the fence who just complain about every little thing.

    "Why did they lower prices at NPCs?!?!?!"
    "Why did they raise the prices at NPCs?!?!?!"
    "Why is the game so easy?!?!"
    "Why is the game so hard?!?!?"

    "MEHHHHHHHH!?!?!?!?!?"

    Idiots will always spread hate because you can never make idiots happy.

    Idiots also don't like hearing other peoples complaints. They can only listen to their own. Hence the "Go back to WoW!"

    When a black person complains about the current economy do you tell them to go back to Africa?









    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 3:09pm by sparkytenks

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 5:56pm by sparkytenks
    #70 Dec 02 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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    sparkytenks wrote:
    And to all those "Go back to WoW!" idiots. Why don't you bash you head into a wall repeatedly? You don't use your brain anyway.

    ...If you do you're not just an idiot you're a racist moron and should just kill your self.


    That was fairly uncalled for and fairly objectionable.
    #71 Dec 02 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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    jadyness wrote:
    sparkytenks wrote:
    And to all those "Go back to WoW!" idiots. Why don't you bash you head into a wall repeatedly? You don't use your brain anyway.

    ...If you do you're not just an idiot you're a racist moron and should just kill your self.


    That was fairly uncalled for and fairly objectionable.


    I'll agree to that. Pushing the line a bit far there.

    However, the very statement "Go back to WoW!" is also uncalled for and fairly objectionable.
    #72 Dec 02 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    Mentioning and covering are two different thing's, They did mention the war with wutai in VII but they dint cover it, they never covered either why tseng was so protective of aerith, i had they idea that he liked it, but after playing Crisis core, my conclusion was that he protected her, since he could not protect zack back then, and i don't know how can you argue that zack was not flesh out by crisis core, all we knew bout him going by FFVII was that he was a soldier first class, owner of the buster sword, that got gunned down for X or Y reason, this is the guy Cloud impersonates, the only other soldier mentioned in FVII besides sephiroth, and he gets no cover what's ever ?

    Also the angeal/genesis thing, while the hole angel wing's sh*t still got me like WTF <.<, if you played FFVII SOLDIER is a big part of the storyline, and all they came up with, was one member <.< that being sephiroth, and a few flashbacks where zack show up, that is it as far as soldier cover got in FVII a main plot idea in clouds development <.<

    Again the storyline was not "Complex" it was pretty in your face at times, the hole zack/cloud thing perhaps since it wasent required to do that quest and you could miss it, but the hole jenova/sephiroth thing was in your face, i mean they dint even let us find out in a clever way that jenova was not an acient, they just came and said it and that was it, again i'm not saying FFVII is not a good game, it is by all means, it has great gameplay, but storywise is not one of Squaresoft's strongest *********

    Of course thats just my opinion atleast :)


    I admitted they fleshed out Zack. I didn't like Crisis Core as much as I thought I would but the finale (where the action bar thing kept getting stuck on Aerith) was actually EXTREMELY touching. I was surprised it could be that emotional - but I guess you have to really pump up something you know is going to happen before you even turn on the game.

    I don't feel like Crisis Core "fleshed out" the Wutai War. You run a bunch of missions there and are repeatedly (and much to my annoyance) running into Yuffie for no friggin reason. I felt like that was the only reason they had Wutai War at all. It did not give me much insight into Sephiroth as a hero. It did not give me ANY more insight into the strategic or diplomatic backings to the war. It was just a "setting" more than anything "fleshed out." Personally I would have liked the game a lot more if Angeal and Genesis were completely removed and the MEAT of the game was built around the Wutai War and Zack's relationship with Sephiroth (which is EXACTLY what is important in terms of how this impacts Cloud later on).

    There was none of that. Instead they made up new, retarded crap and slapped it into a familiar world with familiar faces. If I were Zack (personally) everytime Angeal or Genesis spoke to me I'd stare at them blankly and (if I had the balls) say, "WTF, mate?" Honestly, what the **** were they going on and on about? Zack and Sephiroth's relationship was the only thing that should have been built up - THINK OF HOW THAT WOULD INFLUENCE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT VII! You'd now understand Cloud's inner turmoil was EVEN MORE COMPOUNDED because Zack (who he imagined himself to be) was not only awed (and idolized) Seph, but also they were close comrades at arms.

    Instead we're stuck with Angeal spouting nonsense about honor this that and the other, Genesis quoting a play like it means something even though it all leads to practically nothing (or leads to some Goddess that defeats the purpose/theme of VII which is the Planet guiding itself, not some divine conscious being). I get the impression that JENOVA sells make you a complete badass but mush your brain so all you can say are mindless ramblings - which explains why Sephiroth is pretty quiet most of the media that feature him.

    You see what I mean (at all) about how the game could have made VII stronger? Instead it made Zack stronger (in our minds) but did more to "flesh out" Genesis - the irrelevant proto-Seph that Nomura designed so GECKT would talk to him. It's real frustrating to me cause it takes away from VII rather than adds to it.

    That's just my opinion, though. I can play a game and enjoy playing it (Crisis Core) but I can also tell myself this story and portrayal of "past events we heard about" could have been REALLY fleshed out rather than just a background setting to some superfluous nonsense.

    Edit:

    Also VII is complex (by my standards - and compared to games at the time) because it has multiple layers. The surface story is about a rag tag collection of misfits who team up to save the world from impending doom (Sephiroth/Meteor). There's a lot more going on than that, though. You could say the same about VI only in parenthesis (Empire/Kefka/Goddess Statue). That's where VI ends though (in my opinion). VII is also about the Planet's struggle to survive. How it uses Aerith as a conduit to destroy Shinra, to defend itself from Meteor, to purge itself of JENOVA. There's a deeper (as in "under the surface") plot that catalogs the Planet's long standing battle versus JENOVA. There's deep character connections - Cloud & Aerith (via Zack), Cloud & Tifa (childhood + truth), Cloud & Sephiroth (via Zack & JENOVA), Seph & JENOVA (via childhood) - the rest of the characters have some "background" but they don't have very "complex" stories as the ones I mentioned. There are some very complicated ideas being thrown around behind the "Save the world!" romp across the Planet - which is what MOST other Final Fantasy titles are about (pre-VII).

    You can disagree, but that's my definition of "complex" so if our definitions differ we'll agree to disagree.

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 6:23pm by Kirutaru

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 6:23pm by Kirutaru

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 6:24pm by Kirutaru
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    #73 Dec 02 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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    sparkytenks wrote:
    jadyness wrote:
    sparkytenks wrote:
    And to all those "Go back to WoW!" idiots. Why don't you bash you head into a wall repeatedly? You don't use your brain anyway.

    ...If you do you're not just an idiot you're a racist moron and should just kill your self.


    That was fairly uncalled for and fairly objectionable.


    I'll agree to that. Pushing the line a bit far there.

    However, the very statement "Go back to WoW!" is also uncalled for and fairly objectionable.


    Eh, I think it has moments where it's appropriate. And to not make it an anti-WoW thing, I'll say it can be appropriate using other games, even XI. If all someone can bring up constantly is how a certain game does everything better and how much they miss said game...I wanna ask "Why'd ya stop playing that game?"

    Though I'm sure you mean how it gets tossed around as anyone with a negative comment should "Go back to WoW!" even if it's possible they have never played WoW. Yea, that gets old...

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 6:33pm by TwistedOwl
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    #74 Dec 02 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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    /agree with Caesura

    Quote:
    You agree that a portion of the fanbase "act like the game should get a 20/10". Let's start there.

    Name a FF game that has MORE fans who would rate it "20/10" than FFVII has. If you can't, then FFVII is the "most overrated". As in "In terms of the amount of players who think the game was better than it really was, FFVII has more of these types of fans than any other FF game".

    In terms of GameFAQ's "Character Battles", out of 8 Character Battles, one Battle Royale, and one Tournament of Champions, Cloud has appeared in the top two four times. Sephiroth twice (Three if you count the Villain-only battle). The only character who has won or came in second more frequently is Link. No FF character from any FF game other than FFVII has made it into the top four. Squall and Yuna made it into the final 8 once each.

    That is how I define "overrated". I never said it was a bad game; my exact words were "FF7 was severely overrated in terms of fan base fanatical fervor in comparison to the rest of the series." and I stand by them, unless you can name a FF title that was more overrated than FF7 and provide some data to support it.


    There's a portion of the fanbase in any great game, even many mediocre ones, that act like that. If FFVII has more of them, it's because of the huge number of fans that the game has, not because it's proportionately absurd. By that measure, calling it overrated is only tantamount to acknowledging that it has huge mass appeal.

    If people are voting for Cloud/Sephiroth in the character battles, they aren't winning based on a small or even a relatively large population of fringe fans that think the game is just TEH BEST GAME EVAR. They win by a majority. If you think that the popular reception is overrated, then that's fine. Here's a litmus for you: Is Twilight overrated? Was Harry Potter? Most people would answer yes to the first and no to the latter. On what basis?

    Re: Crisis Core, the game definitely fleshed out Cloud, Sephiroth, and Aerith if for no other reason than portraying them with technology that allowed the game to convey demeanor that wasn't possible at the time of FF7's release. Fleshing out a character isn't limited to learning about significant events in their backstory.

    Re: Xenogears, it was a great game. I was one of the few people that consistently rated it as a favorite around the time of its release, and constantly had to defend my position. Unfortunately, it was released in an unfinished state, and the ending was blatantly rushed. That's really my only beef with it.
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    #75 Dec 02 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
    32 posts
    "This is an intelligent discussion about the merits (or lack of) a related game which given the contempt (and evidenced by your comment) are far and few between. "

    You're having a basic fan versus critic discussion about FF7 being good or bad. We've all heard this discussion a million times 5 years ago, and a billion times by now. I don't mean to insult, but you and the other party are not saying anything that hasn't been said, heard, comprehended, and decided upon thousands of times already. Don't fall into the groove of thinking youre saying anything new regarding the topic.

    The tired "its good" and "its overrated" back-and-forth =/= an intelligent and fresh critical discussion. Let's see you really dig in to actual literary and mechanical aspects of the title in-depth, the same way one would discuss shakespeare or heart of darkness or the shining. Then you can tell me you're not saying what 12 year olds were saying 10 years ago.

    But do it in the off topic forum.
    That goes for everyone yelping about FF7 in the FFXIV forum for no reason but boredom.


    Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 12:48am by maxmad
    #76 Dec 03 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
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    If.. after FIVE YEARS, the game as it was released was the best beginning SE could offer, they are incompetent tools.
    If.. after months of alpha/beta, with all of us telling them constantly, in every way we could on the tester forums, that the game was NOT READY to be played, they are arrogant incompetent tools.

    So many people think, omg..the hate coming from everyone. It's not hate, it's bitter disappointment. It's the realization that our new home isn't, and may never be ready to move into.


    Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 1:23am by Vorkosigan
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    #77 Dec 03 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Default
    32 posts
    ^ everybody knows this. Why bother posting things people already know? You think we don't know how money works? How MMOs work?

    Our complaint isn't that this is a launch mmo, our complaint is that the game sucks so much worse than any launch mmo should. If you're telling us to like it, tough luck. We'll like it when it gets better
    #78 Dec 03 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Good
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    cheezer5000 wrote:
    So sorry if this has been brought up......but do none of you English players realize that you didn't play ffxi until a year after it was released. Can you imagine how much you would have hated ffxi if you were stuck leveling the base jobs for a year. DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THIS GAME IS GOING TO GET A LOT BETTER AS TIME GOES ON. And I'm sure that by the time of ps3 launch things will be just chipper.

    Any other thoughts on this?


    wow, I just wowed after reading the the OP.

    How many time the same idea was put up.
    and how many time numbers of English players who started since JP release(including me) gave their idea,opinion and experiences.
    All the discussion, all the effort that our ZAM members paid to dig up old update notes since 2002....

    It is an insult.

    Btw, do you know why parents always have an easier time when they raised the second children then the first-born?
    You know why, right???
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    #79 Dec 03 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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    Re, FFVII: I never get in the way of other people's nostalgia. Chrono Trigger was one of my first RPGs and I love it to death to this day. I still think it's a legitimately fun game on its own merits and start my morning every day by shaking a fist towards SE world headquarters for not working on Break. So, I understand that a lot of people have really good memories of FFVII and generally don't give them crap about it.

    Unrelated FFXII theory: ShinRa is the good guys of the game. You're the bad guys.

    ShinRa: provides power for cities all over the world. They do so for a profit, but hey, we're pretty much okay with that in reality here.
    AVALANCHE: destroys as many power generators as they can get their greedy paws on, under the premise that they're bad for the ecology. Okay, the ecology thing is potentially true, but they offer no alternative and seem to be willing to usher in a new dark age of poverty and despair by flicking off all the world's power.

    ShinRa: when their city comes under attack by a WEAPON, they deploy they throw everything at it to protect it. This is a really cool sequence, but I think the part about this struck me the most was the big metal platings that come up to protect the apartment buildings. They didn't need to have those to protect non-combatants, but they paid for them anyway.
    AVALANCE: you cannot fly away from this fight fast enough on your stolen airship.

    ShinRa: comes up with a plan to destroy meteor by collecting big materia, putting it on a rocket, and launching it at the thing.
    AVALANCHE: does their best to disrupt this plan by stealing the big materia, again with flimsy ecological reasoning. If you fail to complete all the big materia sequences and ShinRA collects them all, the rocket plan still fails, BUT AT LEAST THEY WERE TRYING SOMETHING, you sabotaging nitwit!

    ShinRa: failing to destroy the meteor, they decide to go after Sephiroth directly with the Sister Ray. It's first and only shot is enough to destroy Sephiroth's barrier, knocking out a WEAPON that would have destroyed Midgard to boot! Nice shot, dead President's son guy!
    AVALANCHE: your party wants to disrupt this plan YET AGAIN because of the ecological ramification of using the mako reactors for power. Cait Sith talks you out of it, to everyone's benefit, and the attack on Midgard only happens because that Hojo tool is doing something wonky with the laser.

    It's supposed to be a game about the evils of corporations, but time and time again ShinRa attempts to use its vast resources to actually save the world. I can't be the only one that's noticed this trend here. I think FFVII is the one game in the series where you really do play the bad guys.
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    #80 Dec 03 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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    Erecia wrote:
    Re, FFVII: I never get in the way of other people's nostalgia. Chrono Trigger was one of my first RPGs and I love it to death to this day. I still think it's a legitimately fun game on its own merits and start my morning every day by shaking a fist towards SE world headquarters for not working on Break. So, I understand that a lot of people have really good memories of FFVII and generally don't give them crap about it.

    Unrelated FFXII theory: ShinRa is the good guys of the game. You're the bad guys.

    ...



    I like this... both parts even.

    First off, my "first love" with video game RPGs was FF, yeah, no roman numeral afterwards... the first one. I beat that game with probably every feasible combination of classes (including all WHM or all BLM... I did it with one, not the other, can't remember which). It was also the first RPG I "time trialed" ... had my quickest completion time somewhere around 16 hours of straight play.
    FFVII ... If you recall, that came out around X-mas and I was in college. A lot of my friends had also gotten it and every day we'd sit and talk about the developing story, we were all going through it at about the same pace so there weren't any real spoiler concerns... until the day I could hear screams coming from down the hall and a couple minutes later someone was rapidly banging on my door and asking, "did you get to that part yet?" (yes, we all hit "that part" on the same day). Yeah, now it might be a cliche, but to us back then it was a big deal. My memory, my nostalgia... and oh, btw, Tifa rocks!

    The ShinRa Theory: I never looked at it this way... but perhaps I disagree with your summation.

    Sometimes both sides can be the "good guys" and there are no "bad guys" because it's a matter of (somewhat) equally valid perspectives conflicting with eachother....


    Which actually is very much applicable to the FFXIV situation we have here...

    Was the game rushed to release? The facts point to yes.

    Could it have been better at launch? General consensus is yes.

    Should it have been "a finished product" at launch? Not likely given the history of MMO launches. Also depends on the individual's definition of "finished".

    Is there "no community"? Perspective-based... mostly... I can't speak for any server other than my own, yet I have a sneaking suspicion that those who claim there is "no community" either suck at being a member of the community, or gave up too easily on trying to find/build it. Personally, I had a long MMO history of falling in with a small group of people to play with, and going solo when they weren't on. One of my friends even commented once that I was the only person he ever knew who bought an MMO with the intent to solo it. I came to FFXIV with a different attitude, and now I am a part of multiple linkshells, have many different people that I duo, trio, or group with regularly, I join groups on-the-fly for leves or behests, and I'm familiar with a lot of crafters from just asking questions and chatting in the various guildhalls.

    Should it have built off of the FFXI model? Completely perspective-based. Pesonally, I look at the history of FF and see that they've ALWAYS tried to do something different, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse (this also includes more than just the primary enumerated series; Legend, Adventure, Mystic Quest, Crystal Chronicles, Tactics, etc). I didn't come into this game expecting to see FFXI-2... and I wasn't disappointed. But I had to also expect that with something new there would be new mistakes... but the good thing about an MMO as opposed to a standard RPG is that it is an organic product, it will grow and evolve and change. If you drop your money on a regular console game and it has issues (or you beat it in one night of play), well, you're just SOL.

    Is the game "fun" or "playable"? Completely perspective-based as well. Haters can hate... but that won't stop many people from enjoying the game as is, even with improvements laying somewhere in the indeterminate future. Ravenous fans can be.. well, ravenous, but that won't stop others from seeing where improvements should be made and voicing their opinions regarding those shortcomings.
    Either extreme (to me) seems a little blinded by their own opinions... a sort of "not seeing the forest for the trees" and vice versa. And yes, those who have read my posts know I really enjoy FFXIV, but I see where some things can be improved as well... but that doesn't mean that I'm going to be so ****-hurt about details or SP/hr or chocobos or an AH (or a reasonable facsimile, and YES this is definitely on my wishlist for FFXIV) that I prevent myself from having fun NOW.


    So, sorry haters, I don't think you're bad guys... I just disagree with your perspective and conclusions.

    Sincerely,
    Ailys Foxglove
    -Kashuan
    #81 Dec 03 2010 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    You're having a basic fan versus critic discussion about FF7 being good or bad. We've all heard this discussion a million times 5 years ago, and a billion times by now. I don't mean to insult, but you and the other party are not saying anything that hasn't been said, heard, comprehended, and decided upon thousands of times already. Don't fall into the groove of thinking youre saying anything new regarding the topic.

    The tired "its good" and "its overrated" back-and-forth =/= an intelligent and fresh critical discussion. Let's see you really dig in to actual literary and mechanical aspects of the title in-depth, the same way one would discuss shakespeare or heart of darkness or the shining. Then you can tell me you're not saying what 12 year olds were saying 10 years ago.


    There is a very atypical FFVII conversation happening here. I agree it's off topic, but because there isn't (aside from 2? people) an argument of good vs overrated but rather a discussion of varying merits and ideas I'm not going to stop just because you don't feel like reading it. Just don't read it.

    Personally, I'm skipping over the posts about XIV at this point because they're all the same posts that were said earlier in the thread, as well as other threads, as well as weeks before this. It's refreshing to have a different discussion without a lot of repetition and without the stereotypical "you're a fanboy" "you're a hater" 3rd grade name calling justifications.

    We're just expressing opinions and no one is getting bent out of shape about it (except you).
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    #82 Dec 03 2010 at 5:05 AM Rating: Good
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    The suggestion/perspective of ShinRa as the "good guys" is interesting, but within the context of the game itself I have to disagree.

    The underlying story is about the Planet's struggle for survival and its bond with the Cetra (Aerith). The Planet has to be "good" and ShinRa is hurting the Planet. ShinRa may be helping people on the Planet but a lot of what the company is doing (intentionally or accidentally) is detrimental to the survival of the entire population - and the Planet itself. AVALANCHE is literally a terrorist organization (in the Midgar opening) - they don't feel like revolutionaries as much as a bunch of *** clowns responsible for power outages and ShinRa deciding to drop a few plates on people's heads. It's Aerith (her death mainly) that brings to light the true struggle taking place - which is between the Planet and Jenova, ShinRa becomes more of a bystander to this conflict but in the end Meteor & Holy destroy Midgar - I'm inferring this was intentional on the Planet's part and not just a coincidence (as evidence by Red seeing it full of life hundreds of years later).

    Anyway - ShinRa (particularly Rufus) doesn't strike me as a true villain really. It's just VII's rendition of the evil Empire keeping everyone down - and much like the Empire in VI disappears (literally) at the turning point of VI, ShinRa is more of a background to Cloud vs Sephiroth, Planet vs Jenova.
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    #83 Dec 03 2010 at 6:02 AM Rating: Default
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    Kirutaru wrote:
    Quote:
    Mentioning and covering are two different thing's, They did mention the war with wutai in VII but they dint cover it, they never covered either why tseng was so protective of aerith, i had they idea that he liked it, but after playing Crisis core, my conclusion was that he protected her, since he could not protect zack back then, and i don't know how can you argue that zack was not flesh out by crisis core, all we knew bout him going by FFVII was that he was a soldier first class, owner of the buster sword, that got gunned down for X or Y reason, this is the guy Cloud impersonates, the only other soldier mentioned in FVII besides sephiroth, and he gets no cover what's ever ?

    Also the angeal/genesis thing, while the hole angel wing's sh*t still got me like WTF <.<, if you played FFVII SOLDIER is a big part of the storyline, and all they came up with, was one member <.< that being sephiroth, and a few flashbacks where zack show up, that is it as far as soldier cover got in FVII a main plot idea in clouds development <.<

    Again the storyline was not "Complex" it was pretty in your face at times, the hole zack/cloud thing perhaps since it wasent required to do that quest and you could miss it, but the hole jenova/sephiroth thing was in your face, i mean they dint even let us find out in a clever way that jenova was not an acient, they just came and said it and that was it, again i'm not saying FFVII is not a good game, it is by all means, it has great gameplay, but storywise is not one of Squaresoft's strongest *********

    Of course thats just my opinion atleast :)


    I admitted they fleshed out Zack. I didn't like Crisis Core as much as I thought I would but the finale (where the action bar thing kept getting stuck on Aerith) was actually EXTREMELY touching. I was surprised it could be that emotional - but I guess you have to really pump up something you know is going to happen before you even turn on the game.

    I don't feel like Crisis Core "fleshed out" the Wutai War. You run a bunch of missions there and are repeatedly (and much to my annoyance) running into Yuffie for no friggin reason. I felt like that was the only reason they had Wutai War at all. It did not give me much insight into Sephiroth as a hero. It did not give me ANY more insight into the strategic or diplomatic backings to the war. It was just a "setting" more than anything "fleshed out." Personally I would have liked the game a lot more if Angeal and Genesis were completely removed and the MEAT of the game was built around the Wutai War and Zack's relationship with Sephiroth (which is EXACTLY what is important in terms of how this impacts Cloud later on).

    There was none of that. Instead they made up new, retarded crap and slapped it into a familiar world with familiar faces. If I were Zack (personally) everytime Angeal or Genesis spoke to me I'd stare at them blankly and (if I had the balls) say, "WTF, mate?" Honestly, what the **** were they going on and on about? Zack and Sephiroth's relationship was the only thing that should have been built up - THINK OF HOW THAT WOULD INFLUENCE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT VII! You'd now understand Cloud's inner turmoil was EVEN MORE COMPOUNDED because Zack (who he imagined himself to be) was not only awed (and idolized) Seph, but also they were close comrades at arms.

    Instead we're stuck with Angeal spouting nonsense about honor this that and the other, Genesis quoting a play like it means something even though it all leads to practically nothing (or leads to some Goddess that defeats the purpose/theme of VII which is the Planet guiding itself, not some divine conscious being). I get the impression that JENOVA sells make you a complete badass but mush your brain so all you can say are mindless ramblings - which explains why Sephiroth is pretty quiet most of the media that feature him.

    You see what I mean (at all) about how the game could have made VII stronger? Instead it made Zack stronger (in our minds) but did more to "flesh out" Genesis - the irrelevant proto-Seph that Nomura designed so GECKT would talk to him. It's real frustrating to me cause it takes away from VII rather than adds to it.

    That's just my opinion, though. I can play a game and enjoy playing it (Crisis Core) but I can also tell myself this story and portrayal of "past events we heard about" could have been REALLY fleshed out rather than just a background setting to some superfluous nonsense.

    Edit:

    Also VII is complex (by my standards - and compared to games at the time) because it has multiple layers. The surface story is about a rag tag collection of misfits who team up to save the world from impending doom (Sephiroth/Meteor). There's a lot more going on than that, though. You could say the same about VI only in parenthesis (Empire/Kefka/Goddess Statue). That's where VI ends though (in my opinion). VII is also about the Planet's struggle to survive. How it uses Aerith as a conduit to destroy Shinra, to defend itself from Meteor, to purge itself of JENOVA. There's a deeper (as in "under the surface") plot that catalogs the Planet's long standing battle versus JENOVA. There's deep character connections - Cloud & Aerith (via Zack), Cloud & Tifa (childhood + truth), Cloud & Sephiroth (via Zack & JENOVA), Seph & JENOVA (via childhood) - the rest of the characters have some "background" but they don't have very "complex" stories as the ones I mentioned. There are some very complicated ideas being thrown around behind the "Save the world!" romp across the Planet - which is what MOST other Final Fantasy titles are about (pre-VII).

    You can disagree, but that's my definition of "complex" so if our definitions differ we'll agree to disagree.

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 6:23pm by Kirutaru

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 6:23pm by Kirutaru

    Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 6:24pm by Kirutaru


    Again my point is not that they dint flesh it out as it could have been done, i do agree, they did a **** poor job, given the chance they had, but they did flesh out a few things here and there that could have been done in the original, zack is not some supporting character with no important role, he is the man that cloud builds himself to be, the only other first class soldier in the FFVII world before CC, aerith's first BF, the one she waited for 10 year's, etc etc. My point is they did flesh it out, as opposed to "CC dint add nothing" it was just milking the cow.

    That game named Eghizer or something like that, thats milking the cow XD!
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    #84 Dec 03 2010 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
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    Kirutaru wrote:
    The suggestion/perspective of ShinRa as the "good guys" is interesting, but within the context of the game itself I have to disagree.

    The underlying story is about the Planet's struggle for survival and its bond with the Cetra (Aerith). The Planet has to be "good" and ShinRa is hurting the Planet. ShinRa may be helping people on the Planet but a lot of what the company is doing (intentionally or accidentally) is detrimental to the survival of the entire population - and the Planet itself. AVALANCHE is literally a terrorist organization (in the Midgar opening) - they don't feel like revolutionaries as much as a bunch of *** clowns responsible for power outages and ShinRa deciding to drop a few plates on people's heads. It's Aerith (her death mainly) that brings to light the true struggle taking place - which is between the Planet and Jenova, ShinRa becomes more of a bystander to this conflict but in the end Meteor & Holy destroy Midgar - I'm inferring this was intentional on the Planet's part and not just a coincidence (as evidence by Red seeing it full of life hundreds of years later).

    Anyway - ShinRa (particularly Rufus) doesn't strike me as a true villain really. It's just VII's rendition of the evil Empire keeping everyone down - and much like the Empire in VI disappears (literally) at the turning point of VI, ShinRa is more of a background to Cloud vs Sephiroth, Planet vs Jenova.


    I get what your saying here, but despite the game's attempt to make the Planet "good" with vague mythology and soothing music, it's an entity completely out for itself and it seems to view humanity as a vile plague to be genocided off of the surface of the world. The WEAPONs, which were explained as sort of the violent white blood cells of the Planet's defense system (if any of the later games contradicted this, I wouldn't know) do their best to kill us all. I mean, they attack Mideel. Mideel sucked. It had like a negligent carbon (mako?) footprint, but the WEAPON killed everyone there anyway!

    Between the Planet (agenda: kill all humans because they're damaging the ecology), Sephiroth (agenda: suck out mako and become a god, with vague but almost certainly fatal results for everyone else on the planet from Meteor's impact), JENOVA (agenda: I was always a little iffy on this. Did JENOVA even have an agenda other than being an alien lifeform that the Planet wanted to GTFO?) and AVALANCHE (agenda: basically kill everyone that does or did at one time work for ShinRa), ShinRa comes out of the whole mess looking like saints.

    I don't think FFVII's story is very concise, but it sure gives a lot to argue about.
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    #85 Dec 03 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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    @Ostia

    This conversation started when someone (you?) implied that FFVII was told so poorly it needed extra attention to flesh it out. Now you're agreeing with me that it fleshed out only minute details that (as I said) ultimately lead to more confusion or asking more questions because it wasn't made with the intent to IMPROVE upon VII - just use VII as a basis to make more money selling GECKT's image.

    I already gave an example about how both Crisis Core & Dirge could have added scenarios that helped us to understand the events of VII much better and much more clearly than we did/can just by playing VII and the fact is they don't really. The only succeed in adding superfluous story elements to confuse and dilute an already "good enough" story.

    Zack is a minor character. In my opinion, we know all we need to know about him THROUGH Cloud - but that is not to say I wasn't interested in nor excited about a game where we could delve into Zack personally. I just wish it had more to do with VII rather than feeling like VII-elements were tacked on to a game to push it as a product.

    -----

    @Erecia

    You're absolutely right about Weapons but because they do (in fact) function like white blood cells the Planet doesn't have any control over them. Do you control your white blood cells or do they just remain on sentry duty until you're sick and then they go into full attack mode? It's also the case that the Weapons targeted ShinRa controlled cities of Mideel and Midgar rather than Wutai. They seemed to collect at huge Mako reactors and generators. Clearly ShinRa is the threat to the Planet - but humans in the area just get caught in collateral damage.

    Would have been a good time to vacation in Wutai, huh?
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    #86 Dec 03 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    Please stop talking about FFVII


    I'll bring the tar someone else get the feathers :P
    #87 Dec 03 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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    Also - and sorry for double post - Jenova did have an agenda. As I mentioned earlier it was always an issue that I had trouble with (especially when I was younger). Later (in Advent Children) Sephiroth retcons the confusion about Jenova, but the evidence was in the game to begin with.

    I don't know if you played Chrono Trigger but Jenova is a little bit like Lavos Mark II. It's more or less a very advanced virus/parasite that feeds off the energy (Lifestream) of a planet (with life). It's origins (other than extraterrestrial) aren't clear, but it is clear that ... it could take any shape it wanted and communicate with the Cetra. It's been a long time so I don't remember what Jenova did to the Cetra to make them understand it was ... not welcome on the Planet, but suffice to say the Cetra managed to seal Jenova until ShinRa found it.

    The way I explain it to myself is that Sephiroth is Jenova 2.0 (Lavos Mark III). He's human, but he functions as the right hand of Jenova. It gave him super human power in order to carry out the exact same mission Jenova had when it arrived ... and although Sephiroth's lust for revenge seems driven by his past, it makes a lot more sense when you see he succeeds (nearly) in doing exactly what Jenova had wanted to begin with - gather the Lifestream to a focused point - only neither of them absorbed it thanks (mainly) to Aerith (an embodiment of the Planet - after her death).
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    #88 Dec 03 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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    Kirutaru wrote:
    @Ostia

    This conversation started when someone (you?) implied that FFVII was told so poorly it needed extra attention to flesh it out. Now you're agreeing with me that it fleshed out only minute details that (as I said) ultimately lead to more confusion or asking more questions because it wasn't made with the intent to IMPROVE upon VII - just use VII as a basis to make more money selling GECKT's image.

    I already gave an example about how both Crisis Core & Dirge could have added scenarios that helped us to understand the events of VII much better and much more clearly than we did/can just by playing VII and the fact is they don't really. The only succeed in adding superfluous story elements to confuse and dilute an already "good enough" story.

    Zack is a minor character. In my opinion, we know all we need to know about him THROUGH Cloud - but that is not to say I wasn't interested in nor excited about a game where we could delve into Zack personally. I just wish it had more to do with VII rather than feeling like VII-elements were tacked on to a game to push it as a product.


    I dont think they where minute details, to you zack is a minor character, to me he is not, i find him a much better main character than cloud hands down, also the whole wutai war was badly if even covered at all in FVII, if i remember correctly all they mentioned was, Sephiroth was the hero of the war with wutai, and that was it, for a war that only ended a few years before the start of the game, they sure dint mentioned it at all, and wasen't even wutai missable in the game ? like yuffie and vicent ? for a country that stood up to shinra solely because they dint want a mako reactor built in their land, avalanche was not even interested in getting their help, i tho they would make natural ally's. As for if they improved or not on the FFVII lore, sure they did, better handle of the sephiroth/jenova project, so far as going and showing that there where actually 2 project's that had to do with jenova cell's, and btw genesis is not the prototype for sephiroth, if anything angeal would be, he is the successful one, genesis was a failure.
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    MUTED
    #89 Dec 03 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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    2,202 posts
    Kirutaru wrote:
    Also - and sorry for double post - Jenova did have an agenda. As I mentioned earlier it was always an issue that I had trouble with (especially when I was younger). Later (in Advent Children) Sephiroth retcons the confusion about Jenova, but the evidence was in the game to begin with.

    I don't know if you played Chrono Trigger but Jenova is a little bit like Lavos Mark II. It's more or less a very advanced virus/parasite that feeds off the energy (Lifestream) of a planet (with life). It's origins (other than extraterrestrial) aren't clear, but it is clear that ... it could take any shape it wanted and communicate with the Cetra. It's been a long time so I don't remember what Jenova did to the Cetra to make them understand it was ... not welcome on the Planet, but suffice to say the Cetra managed to seal Jenova until ShinRa found it.

    The way I explain it to myself is that Sephiroth is Jenova 2.0 (Lavos Mark III). He's human, but he functions as the right hand of Jenova. It gave him super human power in order to carry out the exact same mission Jenova had when it arrived ... and although Sephiroth's lust for revenge seems driven by his past, it makes a lot more sense when you see he succeeds (nearly) in doing exactly what Jenova had wanted to begin with - gather the Lifestream to a focused point - only neither of them absorbed it thanks (mainly) to Aerith (an embodiment of the Planet - after her death).


    Interesting, another villain you can compare both of those to, is Mother from the wild arm's game, she pretty much did the same, invade planet's wage war on them and then blow them up for kicks lol
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    MUTED
    #90 Dec 03 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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    415 posts
    I would like to request we talk about a game that's actually good instead of FFVII.

    Though, I suppose now's as good a time as any to bring up a post in which my FFXI character was compared to a mainstream title like FFVII.

    Quote:
    Well. It's part of the main series and that's never going to change. So we can debate it forever, but in reality, nothing happens. FFXI is FFXI. It's an online Final Fantasy. All the crazy things that have happened have pretty much come and gone, since, what it is, is a relationship between you and other people you meet. The first time I met Soumakyou on Midgard, the highest level Dragoon before he quit, or Tarutim the US Black Mage who somehow made it to be the first US player to enter an established JP linkshell is just like finding out why Cloud has qualms with Barret, yet deeper. Those things you'll never get to experience if you didn't play FFXI from the start, because those players have come and gone, but you can still experience people you meet in FFXI, although after 10 years they might not be as spunky. But that's what Final Fantasy is, it's the relationships, adventures, and crazy things you come across while moving through this complex story. That's why FFXI fits in the series.

    I'm not really friends with Barret anymore, but I know at least two people I've met in FFXI that I still talk to till this very day.

    I feel this quote, which I found on Google while looking for old players from Midgard to play FFXIV with, to capture the true essence of FFXI that made it so enjoyable, and what FFXIV is missing.

    It's the community.

    As much as I like FFXIV, I'm not gonna lie, it's pretty empty. It has no soul, it has no character, it has no community. It's pretty, and the activities are enough to keep me playing, but I haven't developed that attachment that was present in XI. I couldn't tell you who the best players are. ****, I couldn't tell you who I last interacted with outside my Linkshell.
    #91 Dec 03 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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    291 posts
    I don't think there is much grounds for a debate really. Especially with the existence of XIV.

    SE might name their MMOs "FF" (no subtitle) in order to pull sales, but there's no doubt in my mind that XI is a full, main FF title. FFXI has everything that I use to define a Final Fantasy - (more than XIII does, in fact).

    I actually think (and agree) that XI may have been the best in the series simply because you have a much stronger connection to the "main character" (your character) and the NPCs and players who helped you achieve your goals. As far as story and character development go I think the story is possibly the best in the series (repeat: possibly, depends on criteria) and well the NPCs are often weak and with little development (though there are some strong personalities out there that people loved and clung to - Shantotto, Prishe, Lion) but the real characters who you spent your blood, sweat and tears with are the other players you met along the way.

    Lots of people like to argue with me, but they really won't change my mind. Just like lots of people like to tell me VII isn't a good game or doesn't have a good story. My opinions are grounded by my specific criteria. ^^
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    Battle Mage Kiru
    #92 Dec 03 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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    9,526 posts
    I dunno I have found a lot of community in and outside my linkshell. When I am crafting I tend to do a lot of it in the guild. When people level up I try to congratulate them. Sometimes we get talking. I've had some very memorable conversations in my guilds (especially ALC and CUL guilds).

    There are definitely people outside of my LS who I have had some good connections with - and most of my LS mates could name several crafters that they have gotten help from on occasion - or players they have partied with outside the shell. Community is something that we each have a responsibility to build.

    I can't think of a single time where I have congratulated someone on a level while crafting in a guild where they haven't responded. Actually - what happens is people start congratulating each other on their levels, talking about their recipes, crabbing about shard prices, etc.

    Again - if you are not making the effort to build community - then you are part of the problem. Someone has to start the ball rolling.

    Reach out. I have friends who I partied with waaaaay back at the beginning of release who have significantly outleveled me. They still dance for me when I see them.

    Be consistently decent and friendly and you will reap the results as a community.
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    lolgaxe wrote:
    When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


    #93 Dec 03 2010 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
    An unfortunate trait of the human race is that the majority of us dislike change. SE probably could have copy / pasted all the jobs-endgame content into a new world with different maps and different names for jobs... and it would have gotten a 7/10 overall after a year or so. While there are people out there who want true innovation, there are usually more who just want more of what works.

    There is one other perspective I wanted to throw out there that I haven't yet seen in numerous other threads. I started XI at the PS2 launch in 2002~. I played for about 6 months extremely casually then had to quit. I came back about 2 months after WotG was released, so I completely missed RotZ, CoP, and ToAU. I did a lot of HNM and Dynamis (because everyone did Dynamis still), but that was about it. By the time I leveled THF-SAM-BRD to 75 virtually no one wanted to do CoP or the ToAU missions except for a lot of under-geared odd-jobs like PUP. On Gilgamesh server I watched a guy shout for CoP 3-5 for over a year. There were only a couple Sky shells, and they had an abundance of people with overwhelming points that could out-lot you for a year. No one was doing ZNM anymore, at least not regularly. Salvage and Limbus were the only real things going on when I started, and they all had THF-SAM's already.

    The idea behind all that is that I, along with a lot of late comers missed a lot of content because it simply wasn't popular anymore. Add the fact that any group you did join pretty much gave you a 1yr waiting time and it got really frustrating. I think some of the people who defend this game do so because they want to see it succeed and want to be there from the beginning. They came from XI or maybe even another game so that they could get in on everything. They want to be "Those Guys" you see running around town that you just know because they're involved in everything.

    ----

    For the record, I loved XI. I was able to complete all the content except Limbus and some Salvage right before I retired due to a small group of friends that really wanted to help me out, even though it took almost 3 years. They also happened to be a group of those guys that had been there since launch =P
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    Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

    FFXI
    Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
    Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
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