Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
This Forum is Read Only

I finally concedeFollow

#52cornyboob, Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 12:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Down rate for being a downer.
#53 Dec 02 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
Mocarth wrote:

The one thing SqEnix can do in regards to this system is to make the wards searchable based upon the items that are supposed to be in that ward. In other words you can only search the Mason's Ward for raw ores and the like. So, if people want their items to be listed in the search then they will have to place their retainer in the appropriate ward. This IMHO will be more of a deciding factor in getting people to place things appropriately than raising the tax rate.


Yeah I was thinking this. If players knew they could only show up on the search by having the correct item for the correct ward it might be the final straw to get people to use the wards correctly.

I myself don't put my retainer in a ward because I need him easily accessible for inventory reasons - but when I shop in the wards I always look in the correct ward for the item I want. Sometimes I find them - sometimes I don't. That's just the way it is, I guess.

The last time I went to the battlecraft ward I was looking for brass daggers. I don't go in there looking for random sh*te - and I make a point of not buying from retainers selling in the incorrect ward unless they are selling a substantive amount of the correct item. (Or if it is something that just makes sense - like if someone was selling rock salt in the chiurgeons ward I would be all over it - since alchemists need a lot of rock salt.)

That said I find the chiurgeons ward always has a good selection of dyes, potions, etc. Also the woodcutters ward and the ironmongers ward. I am not sure why some people get it and others don't but yeah...

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 11:36am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#54 Dec 02 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I also don't understand why SE is wasting so much time trying to make square wheels work, for no other reason than "We don't want round ones".


Other than lacking a search feature (including price history) market wards aren't much different than an Auction House. The primary difference is that SE has given us the freedom to "post" items in any category. Imagine and AH where you choose which category your item is listed under. This is the same deal. While part of the blame falls on SE for a number of things, you also have to realize that many people are intentionally misusing the market wards, which only adds to their failures.

The Wards clearly need more development but I'm optimistic that they'll become so much better than the generic auction house. Simply being able to seek items is a function typical AHs don't have. While it is a struggle, I'm glad SE didn't give in and scrap the market wards. I don't want to play generic MMO #24, I want to play something new, raw, and different. I don't want to play yet another MMO with a linear class system, basic AH, simplistic crafting, etc. If I wanted to play a flawless, content rich, familiar game, I have plenty of old games to choose from. I play FFXIV because it's a square wheel among dozens of round ones.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 11:38am by Hydragyrum


Yeah, I agree that much of the fault for the misuse lies with the players but part of it is also on SE as well.

Remember that we can only have one retainer (unless we want to pay more money) so if you're trying to sell goods of different types (say ore, wood, armor, hats, arrows, and crystals) then your one retainer can only go in one ward. That means that you're going to HAVE to put it in the wrong place for most of your goods.

That's why everyone is using the first ward; because most people have a combination of goods and rather than put it in a ward that is correct for some goods and wrong for others, it's easier to put it in the first ward and say "***** it".

The current system could only work if SE gives us one retainer per ward without charging extra money for it, so that people can then put their stuff in the correct ward.

A search function would be extremely helpful, and I could tolerate the wards if people put **** in the right place and there was a way to browse retainers.

I wouldn't even mind having to physically walk to the retainer in the ward if I just had some way of being able to "Browse for swords" or "Browse for Iron ore" or "Browse for headgear between level 10-15" or Figure out the average price of a given item or how many are for sale before I sell them myself.

Currently, there's no way in-game to:

- Find a specific item you're looking for in a short amount of time
- Know if a given item is even available for sale
- Know how much an item you would like to sell is worth
- Know how many of a given item are available for sale, and what the price range is

If those issues could be addressed within the current system, I would be complacent with the market wards.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#55 Dec 02 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Yeah I was thinking this. If players knew they could only show up on the search by having the correct item for the correct ward it might be the final straw to get people to use the wards correctly.

[...]

That said I find the chiurgeons ward always has a good selection of dyes, potions, etc. Also the woodcutters ward and the ironmongers ward. I am not sure why some people get it and others don't but yeah...


Not disagreeing with your points, just commentary:

Regarding the first point: I think people might be more inclined to use correct wards if they weren't limited to one retainer. Given the options between "Spend a few extra bucks a month to be able to use the system as intended" versus "Spend nothing extra and use it improperly", I'd wager very few will go for option #1. Until SE makes extra retainers free and gives us at least half a dozen (if not one for every ward), I can't see the situation improving very much. Forcing people to only sell in the correct ward (via removing the ability to list items in the wrong ward or by jacking up taxes) is just going to create animosity as long as you are limiting everyone to one retainer unless they want to fork out extra dough.

Regarding the second point: id wajur tht meny of ur avg inturnet usurz haz no idea wut a "chiurgeon" or a "cobbler" iz. ppl r dum. I mean, I get that SE is trying to stay "in character" here, but yeah... SE is expecting people who don't know the difference between they're/there/their or to/too/two to know SAT words.

____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#56 Dec 02 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Currently, there's no way in-game to:

- Find a specific item you're looking for in a short amount of time
- Know if a given item is even available for sale
- Know how much an item you would like to sell is worth
- Know how many of a given item are available for sale, and what the price range is


I'm still left wondering how this isn't just an auction house that makes you zone/walk around to get your goods... people now seem to completely hate auction houses, and yet an auction house that makes you walk to grab an item is supposed to be a great improvement on the system?

I see many posts (not only in this thread but others as well) about RMT already, and also about the problem of undercutting, and a general devaluation of certain pieces of equipment, so the assertion that an auction house would cause all of these things doesn't seem accurate.

Does anyone really think that making RMT walk a little ways to pick up an item will be the nail in their coffin? The only players user-unfriendly systems thwart are legitimate players; these are the people who leave and never come back, not RMT... RMT will leave later, once the FFXIV gil is devalued from a minuscule population.



Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 4:07pm by KaneKitty
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#57 Dec 02 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
**
588 posts
Show of hands, who completly hates auction houses? (does not raise hand)

* crickets chirp in background *
____________________________


Cornyboob Funnyname Wutai Phys 50 Conj 49 Weaver 49 LW 34 Alch 28 Pug 22 Archer 20 Glad 19 Thaum 20 GS 11 Bot 9 Miner 8 Shield 44 Maur 3

#58tylerbee, Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 3:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Auction Houses are a pain in the *** and ruin immersion
#59 Dec 02 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
tylerbee wrote:
Auction Houses are a pain in the *** and ruin immersion


I'm going to assume that was sarcasm.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#60 Dec 02 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,261 posts
I have a solution. If I'm selling Pants, Gloves, some cloth armor, and some cloth on my retainer; let me summon him once and have him appear in the Leglifters, Glovers, Clothiers, and Tailoring ward? In each scenario, only the items that should be shown in that ward are displayed when someone views your bazaar. So someone looking at my retainer in the Tailoring ward would only see the cloth I'm selling; despite me still having armor, pants, and gloves still for sale.

Wards could get really crowded since one retainer could be in multiple places, but who would care if every single retainer you look through will be selling proper items? They could also just make the wards bigger. Add a middle section so there are 15 stalls instead of only 10. Since they've removed the ability to port from the separation sections, place retainers there as well as the empty space doesn't serve a purpose anymore and people are already doing it anyway.

You could summon your retainer from a bell just outside the ward. You can use this to setup it's bazaar or just for trading items. When deployed to the ward, it would be automatically placed in pre-set positions by SE. They could position people so the wards look like actual market places and it wouldn't have to be a giant clusterf*-- of bodies standing on top of each other.

If they did this, they should also setup a repair ward.

Basically, they could do things that aren't AH to improve the retainer and ward system.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 2:28pm by JaduFenrir
#61 Dec 02 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
JaduFenrir wrote:
I have a solution... someone looking at my retainer in the Tailoring ward would only see the cloth I'm selling; despite me still having armor, pants, and gloves still for sale.


But that's just a adding another inconvenience for the sake of preserving the idea of a retainer... I shouldn't have to look back wistfully at the times I could sell an earring, a sword, a stack of crystals, and some thread all at once in FFXI, since that really isn't something that should impress me -- it's something that should be a basic part of the economy.

This is the impossible flaw of these wards: either sell only one kind of item at once, or ignore the names of the wards to one degree or another. Either way is less optimal than it needs to be.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#62 Dec 02 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
JaduFenrir wrote:
I have a solution... someone looking at my retainer in the Tailoring ward would only see the cloth I'm selling; despite me still having armor, pants, and gloves still for sale.


But that's just a adding another inconvenience for the sake of preserving the idea of a retainer... I shouldn't have to look back wistfully at the times I could sell an earring, a sword, a stack of crystals, and some thread all at once in FFXI, since that really isn't something that should impress me -- it's something that should be a basic part of the economy.

This is the impossible flaw of these wards: either sell only one kind of item at once, or ignore the names of the wards to one degree or another. Either way is less optimal than it needs to be.


Yeah, that's the point I keep getting stuck on; no matter how many ways we come up with to "make the market wards better", they'll still be more cumbersome FFXI's AH, all for no other reason but being different for the sake of not being like anyone else.

It's almost like wanting to wear pants on your chest, except you cut out the crotch to stick your head through, and you wear a shirt over your legs and tie off the neck, then wear shoes on your hands, except cut out the ends of the shoes so you can use your fingers, and wrap your feet in paper bags so they're not exposed to the ground...

You're still going through a ton of work to come up with a solution that is overly convoluted and at its best will only be "Almost as good as" a solution that was already in place, for no other reason than "It's different".

Take this, for example:

KaneKitty wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Currently, there's no way in-game to:

- Find a specific item you're looking for in a short amount of time
- Know if a given item is even available for sale
- Know how much an item you would like to sell is worth
- Know how many of a given item are available for sale, and what the price range is


I'm still left wondering how this isn't just an auction house that makes you zone/walk around to get your goods... people now seem to completely hate auction houses, and yet an auction house that makes you walk to grab an item is supposed to be a great improvement on the system?


And that's exactly it. The Market system would need a bunch of improvements made to eventually just make it similar to an AH, except STILL more convoluted. As I said in the post that was quoting; that's what I would need to tolerate the system and be complacent. Not "like it and be happy", but "tolerate it and be complacent".

I'd be thrilled if SE makes me eat my words here, but I'm coming out and saying that no amount of work on the market wards is going to make it notably better than an AH, except in a few niches at the expense of having a system that is overall worse, and that all the time they're wasting trying to fix a square wheel could be better spent saying "***** it" and putting on a round wheel like they should have done in the first place.

I just think this is a case of developers who don't want to let their child die, even if their child has one arm, half a leg, is colorblind, has a cleft pallete, and is deaf. I get that they loved the system and thought it was great; I did at first, too. Look back on my posts on the matter from August/September and you'll see me saying that while I'd prefer an AH, I'd be fine with Market Wards if they were properly implemented.

They were not properly implemented, and even if they were to eventually be properly implemented, they will still be less optimal than an AH.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#63 Dec 02 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
322 posts
You have some pretty strong feelings and suggestions for someone who has only logged about 5 hours in the game Mikhalia

____________________________


#64 Dec 02 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
tylerbee wrote:
You have some pretty strong feelings and suggestions for someone who has only logged about 5 hours in the game Mikhalia



You mean logged 5 hours JUST in the market wards alone? Perhaps I'd play more if buying new gear wasn't a 1-2 hour chore.

EDIT: Because usually that's what happens. I log on and I play and I gain a few levels/ranks. Then I go to look for some new gear, waste an hour or two of my life and get ****** and log off for a week.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 5:21pm by Mikhalia
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#65 Dec 02 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Excellent
**
451 posts
tylerbee wrote:
Auction Houses are a pain in the *** and ruin immersion


Having to tab out of the game, and look up retainers and gear upgrades on a website is a pain in the *** and ruin immersion for me :/
#66 Dec 02 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
322 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
You have some pretty strong feelings and suggestions for someone who has only logged about 5 hours in the game Mikhalia



You mean logged 5 hours JUST in the market wards alone? Perhaps I'd play more if buying new gear wasn't a 1-2 hour chore.

EDIT: Because usually that's what happens. I log on and I play and I gain a few levels/ranks. Then I go to look for some new gear, waste an hour or two of my life and get ****** and log off for a week.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 5:21pm by Mikhalia


I'd give YG a try if I were you. Much easier to find yourself some gear. Or i'm sure a friendly LS member will help you out if you ask. I dunno, the wards aren't perfect right now but they can only get better, right now i'd rather grin and bear it while they fix things up instead of them adding an auction house.

KristoFurwalken wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Auction Houses are a pain in the *** and ruin immersion


Having to tab out of the game, and look up retainers and gear upgrades on a website is a pain in the *** and ruin immersion for me :/


Yeah, as above. It certainly isn't perfect right now but all it can do is improve.
____________________________


#67 Dec 02 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
*
222 posts
Just a thought, you have one central retainer you add items to. after adding say a sword it will automatically move to another of your retainers in the appropriate ward. each player will have a retainer in each ward. If you are not selling anything in that ward your retainer does not appear. All of your retainers have the same name.
____________________________


#68 Dec 02 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,214 posts
My biggest problem is I am out of town for about a week at a time, and each time I come back, my NPC is nolonger in the ward I left her. And I have to pull her back in (even though, when I summon her she is still listed in the correct ward... but I will be standing there, and she aint there).

But, I still make out pretty decently, I average between 10-50k each time I go to trade up items. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to build up alchemy goods lately, so I haven't had anything to restock her with, so I haven't gone back (again in a week).

Hopefully they get the server reset stuff working correctly, since it appears NPCs are still bouncing around a little, and the hardest part is selling non-armor, as most people who buy components seem to rely on the guilds.

Maybe if they offered a ward search and purchase function at crafting guilds... That would be nice. Only problem is making sure your NPC is in the correct city for the guild you are selling items for.
#69 Dec 02 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
**
291 posts
I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum.

The current AH model (modeled after FFXI in most games) is flawed. I don't hate it, but it DESTROYS crafting. Go on any XI server and look up Yagudo Drinks - I bet you see 1 name 200x. That's an RMT attempting to control the supply (and demand) of the product so they can optimize their profit.

Is there a way to build an AH so that RMT can't exploit it? Well, yes, but it won't look like the AH you all having wet dreams over. It will have to be drastically different. Market Wards are drastically different, but they're punishing the players MORE than the RMT (who don't give a crap about upgrading their gear as history and current evidence prove). It's not the right kind of different (yet) and it may never be but to call for something that is inherently flawed is ignorant.

They should (have done so already) build a new system. They don't have a new system just to be bold and different and for the sake of NOT having an AH. They did it on purpose to HELP us (lol - read: help themselves).

Anyway, I'm not defending the Wards, but I am consistently irritated by this demand for AH (the way you all think of it).
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#70 Dec 02 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
JaduFenrir wrote:
I have a solution... someone looking at my retainer in the Tailoring ward would only see the cloth I'm selling; despite me still having armor, pants, and gloves still for sale.


But that's just a adding another inconvenience for the sake of preserving the idea of a retainer... I shouldn't have to look back wistfully at the times I could sell an earring, a sword, a stack of crystals, and some thread all at once in FFXI, since that really isn't something that should impress me -- it's something that should be a basic part of the economy.

This is the impossible flaw of these wards: either sell only one kind of item at once, or ignore the names of the wards to one degree or another. Either way is less optimal than it needs to be.


Yeah, that's the point I keep getting stuck on; no matter how many ways we come up with to "make the market wards better", they'll still be more cumbersome FFXI's AH, all for no other reason but being different for the sake of not being like anyone else.

It's almost like wanting to wear pants on your chest, except you cut out the crotch to stick your head through, and you wear a shirt over your legs and tie off the neck, then wear shoes on your hands, except cut out the ends of the shoes so you can use your fingers, and wrap your feet in paper bags so they're not exposed to the ground...

You're still going through a ton of work to come up with a solution that is overly convoluted and at its best will only be "Almost as good as" a solution that was already in place, for no other reason than "It's different".

Take this, for example:

KaneKitty wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Currently, there's no way in-game to:

- Find a specific item you're looking for in a short amount of time
- Know if a given item is even available for sale
- Know how much an item you would like to sell is worth
- Know how many of a given item are available for sale, and what the price range is


I'm still left wondering how this isn't just an auction house that makes you zone/walk around to get your goods... people now seem to completely hate auction houses, and yet an auction house that makes you walk to grab an item is supposed to be a great improvement on the system?


And that's exactly it. The Market system would need a bunch of improvements made to eventually just make it similar to an AH, except STILL more convoluted. As I said in the post that was quoting; that's what I would need to tolerate the system and be complacent. Not "like it and be happy", but "tolerate it and be complacent".

I'd be thrilled if SE makes me eat my words here, but I'm coming out and saying that no amount of work on the market wards is going to make it notably better than an AH, except in a few niches at the expense of having a system that is overall worse, and that all the time they're wasting trying to fix a square wheel could be better spent saying "***** it" and putting on a round wheel like they should have done in the first place.

I just think this is a case of developers who don't want to let their child die, even if their child has one arm, half a leg, is colorblind, has a cleft pallete, and is deaf. I get that they loved the system and thought it was great; I did at first, too. Look back on my posts on the matter from August/September and you'll see me saying that while I'd prefer an AH, I'd be fine with Market Wards if they were properly implemented.

They were not properly implemented, and even if they were to eventually be properly implemented, they will still be less optimal than an AH.


Good points all around, and I especially like the imagery. Posts like this, whose comments clearly have thought put into them, are a joy to read.

I think that it is apparent that we both agree -- now all that's left is what we're going to do about it! I'll play hero and you can be, uh, sidekick, and we can storm SE's headquarters with reasonable demands, shooting the place up with a flurry of respectful discourse, until no dev. is left standing (y'know, because we made copies in triplicate, and they all sat down to read)!

It'll be great: like Batman and Robin, but with more paperwork and slightly less homosexual innuendo!
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#71 Dec 02 2010 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum.

The current AH model (modeled after FFXI in most games) is flawed. I don't hate it, but it DESTROYS crafting. Go on any XI server and look up Yagudo Drinks - I bet you see 1 name 200x. That's an RMT attempting to control the supply (and demand) of the product so they can optimize their profit.

Is there a way to build an AH so that RMT can't exploit it? Well, yes, but it won't look like the AH you all having wet dreams over. It will have to be drastically different. Market Wards are drastically different, but they're punishing the players MORE than the RMT (who don't give a crap about upgrading their gear as history and current evidence prove). It's not the right kind of different (yet) and it may never be but to call for something that is inherently flawed is ignorant.

They should (have done so already) build a new system. They don't have a new system just to be bold and different and for the sake of NOT having an AH. They did it on purpose to HELP us (lol - read: help themselves).

Anyway, I'm not defending the Wards, but I am consistently irritated by this demand for AH (the way you all think of it).


Some games have Auction Houses that let you pick the seller you're buying from. I don't think it's an unwelcome feature. Don't like RMT? Buy from someone else. RMT are undercutting the regular players? Pay a little more to buy it from someone who isn't RMT.

Give me a system that lists type, level, classes, price, and seller, and lets me compare them, search and sort them, and I'm a happy person. You can call it whatever you want.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#72 Dec 02 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
260 posts
cornyboob wrote:
Down rate for being a downer.

People like you are probably the ones tho purposly sell random junk in the wrong wards to make us frustrated.

If the journey sucks *** becaus of people like you then why bother gettting to the destination.

This argument you put forth is as stupid as they come get over youself.

knarcotic wrote:
God, could the word efficient be removed from the
dictionary? Efficiency just makes people into robots.
Why have that? It's the reason people want to shop and
sell in one place. Or, it could be laziness. Whatever
the reason, people aren't using the system as designed.
SE could make it so only items of the correct type could
be bought or sold in each ward. How many people would that
**** off? What's the rush anyway. It's the journey that's
important not the destination.


Waaaah, Why are all my posts rated down. Waaaah. If you can't figure it out on your own you truly are 'lowest IQ member on Zam'

-Teeg

Edit: Fixed quote blocks


Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 10:07pm by Teegotaru
____________________________
Why do gnats drop rat tails and lemurs drop gnat wings?
#73 Dec 02 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
260 posts
tylerbee wrote:

Yeah, as above. It certainly isn't perfect right now but all it can do is improve.



Ah, the true advantage to a completely broken joke of a system: It can only get better :)

I tend to agree with Mikhalia, the current system would be a-ok with a comprehensive search (hopefully this month) and multiple retainers to spread your goods across.

The system as-is is crap. Also, call it what you will, but when I am provided the opportunity to buy more retainers and place them in 4 or 5 wards based on items for sale, using the built in sales history, pricing my items just a tad under yours so they will sell faster what we will have is am FFXI auction house. The only difference will be the for sale price won't be hidden

And all will be well. Well, prolly not well, but one holy heck of a lot better than what we started with at launch

-Teeg
____________________________
Why do gnats drop rat tails and lemurs drop gnat wings?
#74 Dec 02 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
**
800 posts
Teegotaru wrote:
The system as-is is crap. Also, call it what you will, but when I am provided the opportunity to buy more retainers and place them in 4 or 5 wards based on items for sale, using the built in sales history, pricing my items just a tad under yours so they will sell faster what we will have is am FFXI auction house. The only difference will be the for sale price won't be hidden
-Teeg


And you can choose who you buy from. And you can "seek" items as well as sell them. And you can list gear for repairs. So it will actually have quite a few MORE features than FFXI's AH.
#75 Dec 02 2010 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
**
291 posts
Quote:
Some games have Auction Houses that let you pick the seller you're buying from. I don't think it's an unwelcome feature. Don't like RMT? Buy from someone else. RMT are undercutting the regular players? Pay a little more to buy it from someone who isn't RMT.

Give me a system that lists type, level, classes, price, and seller, and lets me compare them, search and sort them, and I'm a happy person. You can call it whatever you want.


That system assumes EVEN MORE responsibility on the player. I agree that would work and I would possibly act accordingly, but to assume a population will alienate a seller based on allegations they are RMT and not just buy the cheapest available is a little bit silly, don't you think?

People can't even be trusted to put retainers in the right ward because they think they'll make a profit in the 1st ward on the list (and they may be correct).

I'm not shooting down this idea. I'm just saying it's probably not close to the way SE wants it to be, where RMT are screwed no matter what players do.

I'm just tired of it being at the expense of the player. Every update to XI to counter RMT activity hurt players; made it HARDER for players to make gil themselves - thus more temptation to buy! That was counter intuitive.
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#76 Dec 02 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Kirutaru wrote:

I'm just tired of it being at the expense of the player. Every update to XI to counter RMT activity hurt players; made it HARDER for players to make gil themselves - thus more temptation to buy! That was counter intuitive.


Yeah, SE's solutions always tend to come as double-edged swords... well, more like double-edged swords with a third edge springing out of the grip... which is then given to the players as a new NM drop.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#77 Dec 03 2010 at 4:28 AM Rating: Good
*
90 posts
I just see humor all over this thread...

1a) RMTs only exist because of people being too lazy to earn their own frelling gil.
1b) What is the current value of gil anyway? I think I wipe my **** with it because toilet paper is harder to find and more expensive.
1c) I think the ultimate payback against the RMTs would be if we could just all agree on a socialist economic system (in-game at least) thereby completely devaluating the gil they're hoping to sell. Haha f***tards!!!
1d) Also would be funny if some jackwad paid REAL MONEY for gil only to log on after our revolution and find out the imaginary money he/she bought was worthless... you know, like, it was imaginary money or something.

2a) The Wards are only messed up because people are too lazy to not mess them up.
2b) RMTs being hardworking... yet lazy... all sell in one ward (regardless of needless taxation eliminating their profitability). Most of what they sell is overpriced (see: gil value) garbage, like stacks and stacks and stacks of marmot meat... seriously, do we need 12 vendors selling this stuff, and only this stuff, in the Battlecraft Ward?!?
2c) Buyers, while being COMPLETELY cool with grinding mobs for HOURS AND HOURS to facilitate their need for CONSTANT upgrades of armor and weapons, are completely UNcool with spending ANY amount of time searching for that upgraded gear.... like possibly skipping the wards altogether and going to the guildhalls where gear is made fresh daily and ASKING if someone would sell them the gear that they were probably about to vendortrash anyway because the Wards are messed up and they don't want to deal with the bother of selling there.
2d) Crafters (the non-RMT sellers) while being COMPLETELY cool with crafting the same piece of gear for HOURS AND HOURS are completely UNcool with their gear not moving on their vendors, regardless of ward placement, while being oblivious to the fact that the handful of craft-grinders that started before them could outfit EVERYONE on the server with Bronze Needles, Sheepskin Workboots, Bone Rings, Hempen Hats, etc. (in fact, they did just that 3 days before you took up your craft... sorry you missed the memo). Instead, they assume that everyone still needs their rank 1 trinkets but somehow missed seeing their retainer, and therefore they HAVE to move their retainer where it will be clearly visible amongst 3000 other retainers in the Battlecraft Ward.
2e) Yes, the original wards were just plain messed up... because SE got lazy too.

3a) The most appropriate solution to this all-around laziness is to import the FFXI AH... because it's clearly the laziest solution and asking anyone to have ANY SENSE is just asking too much.
3b) This will please the RMTs who will then have a centralized means of controlling our worthless imaginary money in the hopes that our laziness will get the better of us and we will pay hard-earned REAL MONEY (you know, that stuff that you get from your job on paydays... it doesn't say "gil" anywhere on it, seriously, check it for yourself) to avoid having to earn fake money by playing the game we payed REAL MONEY for.
3c) This will please the buyers who will be able to minimize any community contact in this MMO and return immediately to grinding mobs... raising the question of "why buy an MMO as opposed to a standard RPG?"... Of course, for this convenience they will have to pay a premium (see: current dollar-to-gil conversion rates).
3d) This will please the crafters who can sell directly to the RMTs or continue to vendortrash their wares... since the profitability will remain roughly the same... At least until they need to buy mats to continue crafting and need to return to those RMTs to make those purchases... then reconsider their moral stance on buying gil when they see how much the "going market rate" for their most needed mats are.

All in good humor,
Ailys Foxglove
-Kashuan
#78 Dec 03 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
2,285 posts
cornyboob wrote:
Have you tried using yg.com?

maybe give us a few of the items your trying to sell and the prices your hawking them for so we can assist you in choosing a better sell price that might push them faster.

yg's auction app is awesome for my sales.


YG Updater.

We've had 3rd party ward search for weeks now, but not enough people use the updater to keep things current.
Use it
Love it

The best part being, it posts all my personal retainer listings with zero extra effort, and just a single double click to start the app when I am logging in. Everything else is automatic. I do not currently play the game, at all, without the app running.

Lately I have been setting up in Mason's ward because I have guild member carpenters taking all my logs, and nobody needs my iron. I will list 8 or so slots of ward accurate items, while also listing a stack of pine logs, and branches. Amazingly, with the yg search function, buyers still find my wood, in the masons ward, because it's an easy search.
#79 Dec 03 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
6 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
The first manifestation of the retainer system was complete crap, we all know this. The system as it is now is only marginally better, but far from a solution like some of the above posters seem to think. Some say "the system is in place," others that "They've given us what we need to make a functioning economy and we've spat in their face."

SE hasn't given us what we need to make a functional economy, they just changed the names of the zones involved in a convoluted system of AFK bazaars. Even if everyone used it correctly, it would still be far more work and far more time to end up doing what a simple, accessible auction house would have done from the start.

Here's hoping they add more to the system than some sort of clunky search-by-name box; if they at least make the menus look like an auction house menu, it would be easy to see categorical stock at a glance, or to sort the collective inventory of all the retainers.

So, I guess, the best case scenario is that we get an AH that requires walking and zoning to grab your items. It's better than what we started with, but it seems like it will always be a system that tries desperately to imitate an AH while desperately trying not to be one by technicality.

Think about it: it's sad that the pinnacle of the retainer system is just an auction house missing one or two features.


Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 1:37am by KaneKitty


They had/have a system in EQ2 that I think works well. It's a player-driven system where you list your items on the market. You can do this right from your private house/apt in the game via a market board. That's just EQ2's setup of how players list their items.

More relevant to XIV's situation, in EQ2 there are NPC Brokers that act as resellers. Basically, you go up to a Broker, search for the item you want (EQ2 has a robust search system) and then you can either buy it directly from the Broker with an added consignment fee, or you can go directly to that player's house and buy it from there, avoiding the added fee.

In FFXIV's scenario, there could be NPCs that allow you to search for an item, they will tell you where the items are, who's selling them and the price. Then you can either enter the ward and purchase it directly, or you can purchase it through the NPC.

Personally, even if it's not an Auction House, I think SE needs to re-think the whole market idea. I mean, they say they want players to establish an economy in-game themselves so it's more player-driven. Then they implement a system that's about as impersonal and non-player driven as you can get. Isolated ward instances, filled with NPC retainers - whose owners you can't even identify from what I've seen - that act, basically like any other NPC shop.

At least with Auction Houses, you're among other players when buying something. With the exception of other players who might be in the same ward as you, in XIV's setup you're in a room of lifeless vending machines.

I'm not a fan of the system just in terms of how it's set up. The tedium of it all only adds to it.



#80 Dec 03 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
46 posts
First of all let me tell you that I had not played since the second week of release until I logged back in 2 days ago to check out the recent updates (with fingers crossed), but then I see the retainer system is still junk and a big mission to find what you want, and no AH so I logged back out and have no intention of playing for the moment in the current state.

For everyone saying an AH isnt the solution; it is the solution. I think you are all trying to convince yourselves that this retainer crap is for the best for whatever reason I do not know, if it was for the best it would be working and clearly it aint. Unless they add a viable method to search for items you need or want its still a **** chore to go through retainer after retainer and still possibly not find what you want and this takes the fun out of the game for me and many other people I know who quit. How the **** does this stop RMT? It doesnt it just makes it more of a chore for them and us the same, its like cutting off your nose to spite your face?

I refuse to play this game until they add an AH, it DID work in FFXI not sure why people keep saying it didnt. So what if prices would fluctuate, it was easy to find what you wanted and took no time which is key to success and to me spending time having fun doing other stuff than searching over and over. I would rather pay over the price of an item right now and find it in 10 seconds than pay half the price and search for it for half an hour.
#81 Dec 03 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
**
800 posts
c0d3r wrote:
I refuse to play this game until they add an AH, it DID work in FFXI not sure why people keep saying it didnt. So what if prices would fluctuate, it was easy to find what you wanted and took no time which is key to success and to me spending time having fun doing other stuff than searching over and over. I would rather pay over the price of an item right now and find it in 10 seconds than pay half the price and search for it for half an hour.


Sure, it worked in FFXI, but it wasn't the BEST system. I wouldn't even call it a great AH. It was extremely vulnerable to price manipulation. In FFXI you paid dearly for the convenience factor because you had no other options. If someone decided to control the mithkabob market and charge 200k per stack, you either paid it or you went without food.

Using a FFXI style AH just because it sorta worked is just as stupid as leaving the Market Wards as is. To use a previous analogy, the FFXI AH is a slightly rounder square wheel than the Market Wards. However that wheel has little to no more room for polishing whereas the Wards can possibly be whittled down to a circle. Only time will tell if SE's whittling skills are of a high enough rank.
#82 Dec 03 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
685 posts
An AH isn't THE answer. It's an answer, and a pretty lazy and uncreative one at that. Getting the Wards to work efficiently, now that's an answer. Doing a revamped AH (read as: not XI style), there's another answer.

One thing I've been confused about, in an auction you have to compete against other bidders and the item goes to the highest bidder. In XI's auction house, the item just goes to the first person to bid at the asking price. Where's the auction in that? It's more like going to a grocery store in which you don't get to know the prices, so you just have to continue handing over money until the store says it's enough.
____________________________

Crafter Consortium Craftsman/Gatherers Linkshell
#83 Dec 03 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
19 posts
I don't see it discussed much, but I quite like the new feature of having items be displayable on your retainer.

The first time I read about it in the patch notes I thought, "god, why are they wasting time on this?", but it actually makes it quite intuitive to find something you need. And it breaks immersion much less than a search box where you type in an item name.

Now if I am looking for a Horn Staff, I go through the Spellcraft ward and check all the retainers that are holding thurmaturge weapons. I don't even bother checking retainers holding conj weapons, because I know they won't have any THM weapons (unless they dual-craft). This might not hold for all items you are seeking, and it certainly doesn't work if you're looking for oak logs, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

On a different topic, to combat RMT (or anyone) cornering the market on a certain good, it must be easy to locate one of the item being sold, but exponentially more difficult to locate the next, and the next, thus preventing someone from buying up all the items of that type being sold.

For example, let's say if I'm looking for a Horn Staff, I can find the first one for sale in 2 seconds. To find the second one, it will take an additional 6 seconds. To find the next, 30 seconds, and the next after that, 6 minutes. Let's say we guarantee the first one is the cheapest (or maybe one of the 3 cheapest). This is quite advantageous for the single player that just wants one. He/she gets their item fast, and cheap. However, for the person trying to buy in bulk and resell, it becomes quite hard to buy all of them.

The only problem with this system is building in artificial delay to a search function is *extremely* annoying to the average player without a good reason. Plus it's not very realistic and breaks game immersion. I don't think I'd actually want to see such a system in place. But, just thought I'd throw that idea out there.


1 2 Next »
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 11 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (11)